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[0:00] Nella Vera: Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the fabulous Feinstein's 54 Below. Before we get started this evening, just a polite reminder. Please take this moment to silence your cell phones. Also, there is no flash photography, please. Welcome to the Feinstein's 54 Below podcast. I'm Nella Vera, the club's director of marketing. Our guest today is a journalist on one of the most listened-to radio programs in the United States. Ari Shapiro has been one of the co-hosts of NPR's flagship drive time program, All Things Considered, since 2015. He has reported from above the Arctic Circle and aboard Air Force One. He's covered wars in Iraq, Ukraine, and Israel, and has filed stories from five continents and most of the 50 U.S. states.

What many fans of the program do not know is that Ari is also an accomplished singer. He is a frequent guest performer with the Little Orchestra, Pink Martini, and appears on four of the band's albums. Since making his debut with them at the Hollywood Bowl in 2009, he has toured the world and performed with them in such venues as the Royal Albert Hall in London, L'Olympia in Paris, and Mount Lycabettus in Athens. On April 3rd and 4th, Ari makes his Feinstein's 54 Below debut with a new show called Behind the Mic. Ari, welcome to our podcast.

[1:24] Ari Shapiro: Thank you so much, Nella. It's great to be here.

[1:27] Nella Vera: We're so thrilled to have you on the Feinstein's 54 Below podcast. As the host of NPR's All Things Considered, you're an acclaimed podcaster yourself. Is it strange to not be the one asking the questions?

[1:38] Ari Shapiro: I love not asking the questions because I feel like when I'm on the other side of the mic and I'm running the interview, there's so much I have to keep track of. And when I'm answering the questions, I don't have to think about all of those things. Like I can let you handle the steering wheel, and I will just go where you drive the car. It's a great feeling.

[1:57] Nella Vera: Well, it's a bit nerve-wracking for somebody who's not reading.

[2:01] Ari Shapiro: No judgment.

[2:02] Nella Vera: This is a judgment-free zone. Look, if you promise not to judge me harshly as a singer, I will not judge you harshly as an audio journalist.

[2:10] Ari Shapiro: Deal?

[2:11] Nella Vera: Deal, total deal. My staff wrote some of these questions, so they were very curious about this. When you began hosting All Things Considered, you said apparently that you hoped the move would mean wearing fewer suits. Now that it's a few years later, we want to know has that hope come true?

[2:29] Ari Shapiro: So that quote was actually about when I was moving from covering the White House. I was a White House correspondent for five years, and I was going to London to be an international correspondent. And I told an interviewer as I was getting ready to go to London that I hoped it meant fewer suits. And it did because, and this is what I meant by that, when I was covering the White House, I was sort of doing similar things every day. I was a beat reporter. And when I went to London, what was so great about that move was that suddenly instead of just focusing on politics and policy, I was able from London to do stories about arts and sports and science and business and literally everything. And so it meant wearing fewer suits.

And similarly, when I moved from London back to the United States to host All Things Considered after two years, I was able to keep the breadth of things that I find so enjoyable. There are people who go into journalism because they're really passionate about whatever the thing is that is their passion. But for me, it's always been about curiosity and storytelling and connection. And so what I love about hosting All Things Considered isn't the opportunity to cover big breaking news events per se. It isn't the opportunity to interview celebrities per se. It's the breadth of things that I get to do. And that's sort of embodied in the idea that I don't, I mean, in a literal sense, have to wear a suit every day, but more broadly, I don't have to focus on just one thing every day because as the name of the show, All Things Considered implies, we really do try to capture the breadth of human experience.

[3:57] Nella Vera: Somehow I picture you in London like Bridget Jones sliding down a firehouse pole.

[4:04] Ari Shapiro: I had such a good time in London. Before I went there, I expected that I would love the job more than I loved the city itself. But I ended up just falling in love with the city of London and then being able to use that as a jumping-off point to travel the world and cover all sorts of interesting stories all over the globe in countries that I wasn't familiar with and places that I had never been, and then to return to my home base in London where I spoke the language, where this is a highly developed country, in contrast to some of the places that I was reporting from, it was kind of the perfect yin-yang. I mean, the other great thing about living in London, if I'm being honest, is that I was a free agent in that my editor was based in Washington, DC and got into the office at 2 p.m. London time every day.

And so I could kind of set my own agenda each day. And if I wanted to go for a run in the middle of the afternoon or have a long lunch or take a nap, it really didn't matter as long as I was productive, which I was. And so it was kind of the freest I've ever felt in my 20-plus year career as a journalist.

[5:07] Nella Vera: Big contrast to All Things Considered, where there's a whole team of people scheduling the day down to the minute, and then from four to six every day, we are on the air, we are live.

[5:16] Ari Shapiro: Yeah, yeah. That's a lot, like every single day.

[5:20] Nella Vera: It is. Fortunately, there are four hosts on the show and a large number of producers and editors who you don't hear on the air, but who we would not be able to function without, whose fingerprints are all over everything you hear me do every day. So it is a real team effort. It is not all on my shoulders.

[5:36] Nella Vera: Do you have a favorite story that you've covered or stories?

[5:40] Ari Shapiro: I get that question a lot, and I have a hard time choosing favorites, partly because I think if I spend my time thinking about the one story I did way back when that was so rewarding, then something's gone wrong. I should be excited about a story I'm doing this week and a story I'm doing next week and a story that I'm planning for a month from now. I don't know if I would call it a favorite, but I just returned from a reporting trip to the border of Poland and Ukraine, which was a very meaningful experience for me because we were watching millions of people just flood across the border, almost all of the women and children. It's one of the largest refugee migrations since World War II. And so to be able to help tell that story, particularly after I had been to Ukraine in 2014, covering the takeover in the East by Russian-backed separatists of the Donbass region, it felt like resuming a story that I had begun to tell eight years ago and tapping back into something that I cared a lot about.

And also just being able to get out into the world after two years of being largely locked down and broadcasting from the guest bedroom that I'm now speaking to you from that has served as our home studio, my home studio for the last couple of years. That was a really meaningful experience.

[6:52] Nella Vera: Oh wow. Wow. It must be so hard to have to remain neutral while you're having to report the news when something so terrible is happening.

[7:03] Ari Shapiro: I mean, I just, I did you ever feel like you want to help somebody and stop everything and drop reporting?

[7:10] Nella Vera: We hope that by telling the stories, we are being helpful in a different way. Something that I learned at the very beginning of my journalism career. I had just finished my internship. I was working as an editorial assistant on Morning Edition, working the overnight shift when 9/11 happened. And I remember the host of Morning Edition at the time, Bob Edwards, saying, in moments when everyone in the world wonders what they can do, we're lucky that as journalists, we know what we can do. So to be able to bear witness and tell the story and help write the first draft of history feels meaningful at a time when so many people are wondering what role they can play and what they can do. And I feel very fortunate to be able to know what role I can play and what I can do and the function that I'm there to serve.

[8:00] Ari Shapiro: Absolutely. And we are so grateful and dependent on people telling us and, you know, not only reporting on just the humanitarian crisis, but also reporting on how we can help at home. And I think those of us in the arts also sometimes feel both helpless, but feel like what we do does matter.

[8:18] Nella Vera: Oh, that we bring people together. And I went to see a show about Ukraine by the monologue Mike Daisy two weeks ago, and it was at the Crane Theater, which was the old Ukrainian center down on East Fourth Street. And his show was a personal show, but it was about Ukraine. And then afterwards I went to eat at Veselka. So, you know, it just felt like a block.

[8:40] Ari Shapiro: Yeah.

[8:40] Nella Vera: Felt like a release, like you feel helpless, but in many ways, those of us who work in the theater, and even if we're giving people a night of entertainment after a two-year pandemic, it feels like, okay, this is what we do. So we're just gonna do it, and somehow we're contributing to either a recovery or to helping people deal with the loss of the last two years.

[9:01] Ari Shapiro: I could not agree more. And that's why I engage in the arts, both as an audience member and as a performer. I think it opens us up, it allows us to have insights into ourselves and each other, it builds bridges across chasms of difference. I just saw this incredibly moving piece at Ars Nova called Oratorio for Living Things by the composer Heather Christian. And part of the piece is in Latin, part of it is in English. There are parts that I understood, and there were parts that I didn't. And through the entire 90-minute experience, I just felt so, I don't know what the word is, like it was accessing parts of my emotion and psyche that I don't know anything other than the arts that can access that in that way.

[9:54] Ari Shapiro: I remember the singer Andra Day once told me music, I'm misquoting her here, but approximately, she said, music is the only thing that can enter our soul without our permission. And I really feel that deeply. Part of what I love about journalism is making connection, both with the people I'm interviewing and with the people who are listening. But the connection that I have with NPR listeners is mediated, and there's a distance there. And being in the same room as people, breathing the same air, sharing an experience that will only ever happen that way that once with the people who are physically there, nothing else can replicate that.

[10:34] Ari Shapiro: And that's why I am passionate about doing this in addition to doing journalism. It's a kind of connection that is different and a kind of connection that I think is just so important and valuable. And I treasure it.

[10:47] Ari Shapiro: Well, radio in particular, to me feels very personal because you're in my ear. There's something so intimate about it. I mean, I think that's why, especially with the NPR shows, they're wildly popular. People feel like they know you, like either it's a very intimate relationship with you. In their most intimate moments. I mean, people wake up to our voices. We might be with them in the shower while they're taking their kids to school or cooking dinner. And unlike television, where it sometimes feels like someone is orating to an audience of untold thousands, on the radio, it's just me talking to you. And it doesn't matter how many others might be listening at the same time. I'm just talking to you.

And so the connection that people feel is very real and meaningful. I feel that connection myself. I've been a lifelong NPR listener since long before I was on the radio. And it feels like a responsibility. It's something that I don't take for granted. And it's something I feel very lucky to be a part of.

[11:47] Ari Shapiro: How did you begin singing? I had always been a singer in choirs and musical theater and things like that as a kid. And also even in college, I was always doing performance of one sort or another. I was in an a cappella group at Yale. And many of my friends went on to be performers full time. But when I finished college, I went into journalism and I found that it scratched many of the itches that I had from performing. I was able to tell a story to connect with an audience to use my voice literally. And then this band called Pink Martini that I had grown up listening to in Portland, Oregon, I was friends with them. So I would always throw them a party when they came to DC, a barbecue or a brunch or something like that.

And one of those barbecues turned into a late night sing-along around my piano. And then the next day, the band leader Thomas Lauderdale said, I forgot you can really sing. Why don't you record a song on our next album? And having been a lifelong fan of the band, I thought, well, that is never going to happen. But of course, yes, absolutely. And so they wrote this song for me, which was one half of a pair of songs. The first song sung by the lead singer China Forbes was called "And Then You're Gone." And it was about a woman complaining about the man who was always disappearing. And then they wrote this second song after "And Then You're Gone" called "But Now I'm Back," sung by the man outside her door, begging to be let back in.

So I went to Portland, I recorded that song for the album. And then Thomas Lauderdale said, Well, we need to find a time for you to debut this song live with us. So why don't you come to the Hollywood Bowl? So the first time I ever sung live with a band, any band, any venue, was in front of 18,000 people at the Hollywood Bowl. And then I thought that would be like the one and only time I ever did that. And then Thomas said, Well, if you're gonna keep singing with us, you need to find some more songs for you to sing. And that was now about 13 years ago. And since then, I created a cabaret show with Alan Cumming, and he and I have gone on tour with that, and we continue to perform that. And it's just been this really beautiful opportunity that I've been able to continue my journalism career and also on the side, using my vacation days, do things like this solo show at 54 Below and his cabaret with Alan Cumming and perform with Pink Martini.

And it uses a different set of muscles. So even if it's not vacation per se, I come back to covering the news, feeling sort of rejuvenated and refreshed and ready to go after I've been doing some of these other projects.

[14:11] Nella Vera: Wow. That's quite a story. I love how, well, I have an obsession with Pink Martini, which is, you know, everybody who's kind of cool knows them.

[14:22] Ari Shapiro: Oh, sweet.

[14:23] Nella Vera: And it feels like they're getting more and more popular. And now some of my friends who are not the most in the know mention them to me. And I feel quite protective. Like, no, you know, that's right. They're mine.

[14:34] Ari Shapiro: Right. Well, they're from my hometown of Portland, Oregon. And I mean, not to brag, but I was a fan before they released their first album. I would go see them in teeny little bars and college campuses, wherever they would perform. And actually, one of our singers, Storm Large, performed at Feinstein's 54 Below a lot and has told me all about it. And I'm so excited to finally be making my debut there. It's just kind of a dream come true.

[15:00] Nella Vera: So your show is entitled "Behind the Mic."

[15:03] Ari Shapiro: Yeah.

[15:05] Nella Vera: Which is a great title.

[15:05] Ari Shapiro: Thank you. I have to give my husband credit. My husband came up with the title.

[15:09] Nella Vera: Oh, great. Is he also a performer or uh he was when we were in college. We met in college. He's not a performer anymore, but he helps advise me. Let's just say that. Actually, Alan Cumming and I recently had to reschedule a couple of shows because Alan tested positive for COVID and is doing fine, but obviously couldn't continue to perform. And my husband, in a very I Love Lucy move, insisted that he could go on as Alan, do the Scottish accent. And the show that Alan and I do is called "Och and Oi." Alan being Scottish is the "Och," I being Jewish and the "Oi." Oh my gosh. And so Mike, my husband insisted he could be the "Ah." Alan wasn't having it.

[15:48] Ari Shapiro: Once a theater kid, always a theater kid, right?

[15:51] Nella Vera: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, what inspired your solo show?

[15:56] Ari Shapiro: When I'm out reporting, I'm trying to be a surrogate for the listener. I'm asking the questions that I think a listener would want me to ask. I am answering the questions that I think a listener might have in my journalism. And so my own personal experience kind of takes a backseat in a way. And this solo show is a way of interpreting my personal experience of some of the things that will always stay with me, telling some of the stories that are behind the mic that you don't hear on the radio, and weaving in songs and music. Some of it is just songs I love, songs I've always wanted to sing, and some of it is songs that tell the stories of some of the people that I will never forget. Being familiar with Pink Martini, you know that Pink Martini sings in a lot of different languages.

And so I took a page from that playbook, and there are some songs in different languages, but then there are also songs that are old standards and songs that I've just always loved and wanted to sing. And hopefully, over the course of the night, we create something like the connection that I feel to some of those people whose stories I've told and will never forget. Some of the connection that I hope to create in a well-told radio story with people who I will never physically share space with because they're listening on the radio, but now we're able to experience some of that and go through it together. And hopefully I can bring a little bit more of my personal experience and reflection into the fold and into the mix.

[17:19] Nella Vera: In terms of music, and not necessarily with your show, what kind of music do you love to perform?

[17:27] Ari Shapiro: Hmm, that's a great question. What kind of music do I like? You know, the thing that I love about cabaret, to be honest, is that it is a genre where you compare a pop song with an esoteric melody from another country, with something classical, with something that is like a crazy mashup medley. And so I guess I'm realizing now this is a parallel to how I answer the question about All Things Considered, which is that it's not that I love covering politics or that I love covering science or arts. I love being in a context where I can fuse and blend all of those things and explore my curiosity. And musically, I think cabaret is similar in that it is a vessel that can hold such a wide variety of things.

And so it's fun in a Pink Martini show to be able to walk out and sing two songs and get applause and leave. But I think it's even more fun over the course of an hour to take audiences on a journey to places they might not have been expecting to go and give them things that are familiar and give them things that are surprising and give them things that they will remember and give them things that are just my own personal putting it in for my own enjoyment. And that collection, that unexpected assemblage is what I think makes the art form so beautiful.

[18:44] Ari Shapiro: I should say, like I have over the years admired so many cabaret artists who have performed at 54 Below for their mix of vulnerability and surprise and beautiful artistry. And so as I was creating this show, I was trying to follow in the footsteps of people like Justin Vivian Bond or Meow Meow or Joey Arias, or some of these legends of cabaret who have performed in New York for so many years. And it feels a little bit presumptuous to dip a toe in that swimming pool that they have been the Esther Williams of doing all of their amazing, you know, to reach for an odd metaphor. But it also just feels like a privilege.

[19:22] Nella Vera: Yeah, and it's not even about, I mean, obviously, there's a level of skill to perform cabaret, but it really is the most successful shows are about that connection with the audience. Because there are people who come and there's shows 54 Below has shows for everyone. So we have people that come and just do their greatest hits, or they do crowd-pleasing shows, and those are great. And there are fans for that, there are Broadway fans who come after their shows and go see a show, and then they'll come to one of our late shows and take in cabaret. But then, you know, my personal favorites are the ones that are more intimate and make that connection where you feel like the performer is revealing themselves in a new way, in an authentic way.

[20:10] Ari Shapiro: Yes. And perhaps not what you, the persona that you see in other forms of what they do. I had a conversation back when I lived in London with a friend who was actually writing his PhD thesis on queer performance art and cabaret. And something that he said, and I have to tiptoe here because I don't want to offend anyone, but he said that he thinks too many people confuse cabaret with musical review. And in his understanding, a musical review is singing a bunch of songs over the course of an hour, and maybe telling some stories in between them. But he said a cabaret is more personal and vulnerable, and it evolves and it creates a connection with the audience, and it's dangerous and it ends somewhere different from where it began. And he said that's to him what cabaret is.

[21:07] Ari Shapiro: When I set out to create this solo show, I wanted it to be something more than that. I wanted it to be something that would take audiences somewhere. I wanted it to be something that felt a little bit vulnerable and dangerous and new. I wanted it to be something that only I could do. And so that's what I've tried to create. And that's why I've called it Ari Shapiro behind the mic, is because it's not only me singing songs. I'm kind of taking you behind the scenes backstage into my own personal experience and sharing something that I'm not able to necessarily share when I host All Things Considered.

[21:39] Nella Vera: Mm-hmm.

[21:40] Ari Shapiro: Did I do all right not offending anyone there?

[21:42] Nella Vera: I totally.

[21:44] Ari Shapiro: And you know, we don't necessarily do a lot of reviews, but we do fun shows where it's group shows where it might be 10 performers, so there isn't an opportunity to get up close and personal, but they're reuniting from their original Broadway show and being seen for the first time. And those are fun and great, and they're different experiences, just like there's Broadway shows of all sorts for people, and you know, there's talkie plays and there's fun musicals, and so it's it, I think the same at Fine Science 54 Below, we just have a variety. We premiere a lot of young new writers.

[22:16] Nella Vera: Yeah.

[22:20] Ari Shapiro: But we also have like singer-songwriters, but we have huge Broadway stars. And then we have people like yourself who are not like your typical cabaret stars who have other stories, and those are really always amazing.

[22:33] Ari Shapiro: Well, I'm just grateful to be allowed to keep company with and share the stage that others who I admire so much have been on. Because I know I'm an interloper. I know I was not raised in this world. And so to be welcomed by the locals, the citizenry, the people who live, breathe, work, eat, swim in this place is something that I don't take lightly. And so I feel really grateful for that.

[22:56] Nella Vera: Well, our audiences are great. We have a lot of regulars and they come to the club so often.

[23:05] Ari Shapiro: You'd be so shocked.

[23:08] Nella Vera: Some of the same faces, we see them like two to three times a week, every single week. Like we're keeping it.

[23:13] Ari Shapiro: Wow.

[23:13] Nella Vera: And they love the different shows and they love discovering new artists. Also, just the opportunity to be in the same room after the two years of being far apart from one another. I appreciate that more now than I ever did before the pandemic.

[23:28] Ari Shapiro: Well, you had an interesting pandemic because you were still able to keep working and you did not stop at all.

[23:36] Ari Shapiro: Yeah, I just started doing it from home. I got two dogs, I grew a vegetable garden, I tricked out my guest bedroom to be a radio studio. Yeah, but I was able to keep working, fortunately.

[23:47] Nella Vera: When you were continuing throughout the pandemic, did you have moments where you just felt like everybody else is just hanging out for two years and waiting for this to be over and I'm still working really hard?

[24:01] Ari Shapiro: It was really back to that sense of purpose that when everyone was going through some measure of difficulty, and that could take any number of forms from losing their job to losing a loved one. I felt a sense of I know what I'm here to do. And these are the skills that I've built over my career. And it's just, I feel so lucky to be able to do it and to tell the stories and to talk to the nurses and other frontline workers, and to talk to the people who are grieving the loss of loved ones, and to talk to the epidemiologists and give good information to our listeners. Early in the pandemic, we stood up a one-hour show called The National Conversation that was about answering listeners' questions.

And so for the first few months of the pandemic, in addition to hosting All Things Considered from four to six every night, I would do this live question and answer show from nine to ten every night called The National Conversation. And I felt so lucky to literally be able to answer the questions listeners had and give them information about our changing understanding of whether masks work, whether you need to disinfect surfaces, whether you can go for a run without coming. I mean, like all of the questions that people, whether pets could transmit the coronavirus, people had so many questions. And to be able to answer them every night, I mean, I wasn't the one actually answering the questions.

I was facilitating the conversations with the experts who were able to answer the questions. But it was a sense of purpose that made me feel like, oh, thank God, I have a role that I can play in which I can actually be a value to people during this time that everyone is going through so much.

[25:32] Nella Vera: Yeah, that's right. And we depended so much, not only just on the news, but so grateful for streaming services and books and everything.

[25:42] Ari Shapiro: Yeah. At that moment, you realize, what do we have? We have art and we have people who are willing to continue and make programs for us while we sit at home and wait for the city. I remember watching this thing called theater and quarantine. I don't remember if you saw it, but it was this guy named Joshua Gelb. I want to make sure I got that right. But he turned his closet into basically a white box theater. He emptied out his closet because the dimensions of the closet were the exact ratio of the dimensions of his smartphone screen. And so he produced these plays, these one-person plays with his colleague and co-worker and choreographer, and they worked collaboratively over Zoom. And he produced these productions from inside of his closet.

And I just thought the fact that artistry continues and creativity continues, particularly in these constraints, is such a testament to the power of creativity and the ability to keep making things even when we can't be in each other's physical company.

[26:41] Ari Shapiro: That was actually how I discovered Heather Christian's music. She wrote the music to a sorry, I was reaching for the name of the choreographer who he collaborated with. It's Katie Rose McLaughlin. McLaughlin. It just came to me. And so Heather Christian, the composer, wrote the music to this one-person musical about Mother Teresa that was part of theater and quarantine. The piece was called I Am Sending You the Sacred Face. And when I heard her music, I thought, how have I never heard of this person before? And so then, full circle, as we're coming out of the pandemic, to be able to sit live in a performance space and hear her oratorio for living things felt like a real, I don't know, consummation might be the wrong word, but closure of something that was takes me back to kind of the darkest days of the quarantine.

[27:26] Nella Vera: Well, I think art finds a way.

[27:28] Ari Shapiro: Yeah. And hearing stories about Russia bombing a theater is so heartbreaking. And I, you know, I remember when I was working at the public theater, we were doing a show by the Belarus Free Theater, and we were wondering if they were gonna make it because they had not arrived in the country yet, and they were late, they had not arrived when they were supposed to to start rehearsals. And then we later found out that they had warrants issued for their arrests because all of their work is highly political, and that they had to have in order to get to our show, they needed to be smuggled across the border in car trunks. And that's how they got across the border and then flew to London, and then flew to New York and still made their opening date at the Under the Radar Festival. And I just thought my God. Art is not a luxury.

[28:20] Nella Vera: No.

[28:21] Ari Shapiro: And it finds a way. It just finds a way.

[28:24] Ari Shapiro: Well, one of my colleagues in Ukraine did an amazing story about the artists who have been creating visual art to protest and comment on the war and create these posters that are being put up all over the place by Ukrainian artists that are rallying the people and opposing the Russian invasion. And yeah, it's like the way artists adapt and the way artists continue to create in the face of whatever challenges might face them.

[28:51] Nella Vera: And respond.

[28:52] Ari Shapiro: And respond. Yeah, and help us understand. I mean, to me, that's one of the biggest things is helping us understand and process. And I find that in so many ways, reading fiction helps me understand the world better than reading nonfiction, because it is the work of artists who reflect our lives and ourselves and our experiences and our world back to us that allow us to perceive that which my work as a journalist might sometimes leave murky.

[29:18] Nella Vera: Yeah. I want to ask you one more question. Your show, we have a description for your show that says it's funny, hopeful, and heartfelt songs of upheaval and resilience from places that are less far away than they may seem. And I just want to ask you if your recent work reporting on Ukraine has at all changed the way that you're approaching your show.

[29:39] Ari Shapiro: Yeah, it has. I sort of begin the show talking about somebody who I met on the first international trip that I took as we were starting to open up after the pandemic. And she was somebody from Samoa, who I met at the UN Climate Summit in Scotland. And towards the end of the piece, towards the end of the show, I bring it back to this trip that I just returned from, which in some ways I'm still processing and probably will be processing the performances at 54 Below. But I think there's a kind of symmetry and a harmony to those two stories. And I hope that as I said, cabaret should end someplace different from where it begins. It should take the audience on a journey. And the performer should risk something. The performer should be vulnerable, and people should feel like it's a little bit dangerous and uncertain. And that certainly describes the experiences that I've had that I'm incorporating into this show. And I hope that it describes the show as well.

[30:36] Nella Vera: Fantastic. Ari, thanks so much for joining us, it's been such a privilege. Your questions were wonderful, as were those of the staff that contributed. And so thank you for having me. I'm really excited to come to 54 Below.

[30:48] Nella Vera: We can't wait for your show. You can see Ari Shapiro live at Fine Science 54 Below in person on April 3rd and 4th. Tickets and information at 54below.com.

[31:01] Ari Shapiro: But let me just say if you find it weird to see my face while you're hearing my voice, you can listen to the show with your eyes closed, and I won't fault you for it.

[31:10] Nella Vera: Well, hopefully not. You're not hard to look at, Ari.

[31:12] Ari Shapiro: So thanks, Nella.

[31:16] Nella Vera: Keep your eyes open, people.

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