This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Nik Whitcomb: BTC gives us an opportunity to be in rooms that we might not otherwise be in to prove that we're meant to be in those spaces.

[0:10] Nik Whitcomb: The thing is not like just get in the room. The thing is, and so often I think that there are so many programs, so many fellowships, and so many apprenticeships that are putting people in rooms with the ideology or the perspective that like we're training these people. But so often, people don't need to be trained. People need the opportunity.

[0:36] Gennean Scott: Welcome to the Black Business of Broadway, a podcast brought to you by the Broadway League and Black to Broadway. Here we highlight the stories, how-to's, and successes of the Black professionals and legends of Broadway. I am your host, Gennean Scott. So today we have joining us one of my favorite peeps in the world, Nik Whitcomb, who is the program director for the Black Theater Coalition, BTC, and two of its program fellows, TaNisha Fordham, also known as T, and Jourdan Miller. Thank you all for joining us today.

[1:13] Nik Whitcomb: Thank you.

[1:14] Jourdan Miller: Thank you for having us.

[1:15] TaNisha Fordham: We're so excited.

[1:17] Jourdan Miller: This is exciting.

[1:18] TaNisha Fordham: It's gonna be super fun.

[1:19] Gennean Scott: So I know that the Black Theater Coalition's mission is to remove the illusion of inclusion in the American theater by building a sustainable ethical roadmap that will increase employment opportunities for Black theater professionals. The vision is clear. It's to reshape the working ecosystem for those who have been marginalized by systemically racist and biased ideology. But before we take a deeper dive into BTC and the fellowship program, I'd like for the three of you to give us a brief backstory on how you got started and what led you to BTC and the career path that you're on now. Nik?

[2:01] Nik Whitcomb: Yes. So I am an Omaha native. I have, yes, shout out Omaha. We're taking over, period. I have been doing theater since I was six. I took my first class at a children's theater called The Rose here in Omaha when I was six, and I kind of never stopped. I then started teaching. I've directed, I've acted, I've produced. I worked in casting for the last like four years in television, theater, and film. And you know, that was kind of seen as a problem. My multi-hyphenate was seen as a problem for a long time because we were like, well, do you actually want this one job that you're applying for? So when the Black Theater Coalition rolled around and it was like, oh, it's actually an asset that I know all the things about all the things.

And I have program management experience, and I've worked in multiple departments so I can speak to or know who to speak to to get answers for certain things. And the way that I came to the Black Theater Coalition is actually through Omaha and a connection that I have with Olivia Jones, our executive director. She did a year-long apprenticeship at The Rose, and I also did an apprenticeship that year. And we've been friends for seven years. Wow. And so you know, the power of network, exactly what we're trying to do is the way I got this job is like being a part of her pipeline of individuals and keeping that network strong so that we could roll into this beautiful partnership. So I'm just happy to be here.

[3:31] Gennean Scott: I love it. I love it. And we, you know, there's a common theme throughout the entire podcast. It's about networking, it's about communicating and relationship building. So I love your story. Jourdan, you want to jump in?

[3:48] Jourdan Miller: So I started doing theater. I initially had no interest in theater. I was playing sports in high school. I have your I like little, I have like to I have what I like to call the Black Troy Bolton story, where I played sports in high school. And then in the spring of my freshman year of high school, my small white high school wanted to do Hairspray, but they didn't have enough Black people. So they were like, Can you please audition? Can you please audition? Can you please audition? Finally, I gave in. And I just never stopped. Which is weird because at first I kind of hated it. But like there was something in my spirit in my soul that was like, no, no, no, this is where you need to be. So I was a performer for about say about four years.

Went to college, found all the other interests in theater that I loved. For reference, my school that I got a BFA from the four concentrates were acting, directing, stage management, and design. I came in as an actor and I left with concentrates in directing, stage management, and design. I did everything but be on stage. And that's where I found my love for theater and my love for scenic design specifically. I just knew, you know, you walk in, I'm very much I trust my gut in a lot of things. I'll you know ask and gain as much information as possible. But like when I feel right and when it feels right, you go and you don't look back, you stop asking questions, you just go and you just do, and I've been going and doing, and now here I am.

[5:28] Gennean Scott: Awesome. I feel like a high school doing Hairspray is like 85% of the reason that most Black people...

[5:36] Jourdan Miller: Absolutely.

[5:38] Gennean Scott: ...it's just specifically that show, too, because there's so many reasons why we can talk about it all the way over.

[5:46] Jourdan Miller: That's a whole nother podcast.

[5:48] Gennean Scott: Right. I was like, that's another episode. TaNisha?

[5:52] TaNisha Fordham: Yeah. So I'm a Jesus girl, and I feel like I gotta say that on this Good Friday. And so I actually started mostly doing things in the church. You know, the church has like Easter performances and all of the things, and that kind of moved me to this cascade of like really enjoying speaking, really enjoying being on stage, really enjoying performing. And when I was in high school, funny because it's another high school story. When I was in high school, my sophomore year, I was 14 at the time. I went to a predominantly white private Catholic all-girls high school. There were only five Black girls in my graduating class. And so my sophomore year, I said to the principal, we should do a Black History Month program.

And it was like, there are no Black teachers, there's no one Black on staff. And so she was all for it. It's not that she was against doing it, but it kind of came down to like who's gonna lead the charge. She was willing to sit in on the rehearsals, but she didn't know enough about the culture to engage on that level. And so I put it together, and I always tell everybody that's the first show that I directed. You know what I mean? And then fast forward to college, I went to North Carolina A&T State University. So I went to HBCU, Aggie Pride, HBCUs in the building, and I had an opportunity to do a real kind of breadth of content that was Black specific or Black culture specific because I went to HBCU.

They knew the importance of that. But then when I got into the real world, I started auditioning, and all the roles were like, do you want to be the Black booty girl? Do you want to be the girl who's rapping? Do you want to be the girl who's got five babies, but you're not married? And that was so strange to me because my grandfather has a PhD and was a professor at a university. And on and on and on and on. So it was like, what who are you all? Who are these stories about? These people's stories are important too, but they were not the stories that were familiar to me. They didn't represent my Blackness, my the people that I grew up around. And so I started realizing if I really wanted to have an impact, I was going to have to be the person to write it and direct it and produce it.

And it's kind of, I'm so glad that you said that, Jourdan, that the thing, like the thing that motivated you to get into the thing is that you had opportunity to do it inside of your school. And so as an educator, I've often pushed kids who are like, oh no, Miss T, that's not my thing. You know, I'm saying that's your thing. You're that girl. It's like you don't know what you can be or what you would be until there's someone else who believes in you sometimes, and that you have the opportunity to do that. And so that is what has ultimately led me to be a director, writer, producer, an educator, which I feel like at the top of the list, inspiring the community of people and the generation of people that are behind us.

[8:44] Gennean Scott: I love it. TaNisha, you know, some people you and you think that we are new to theater, and we're not, because it really does for a lot of us, it really does start in the church. It starts with the Easter speeches, it starts with the Christmas plays, you know, and that is kind of our gateway into theater, so I really appreciate you sharing that story. So the Black Theater Coalition was founded by T. Oliver Reed, Warren Adams, and then Reggie Van Lee came along, and this was back in the summer of 2019. And they formed because they wanted to, they had identified the disparity between the inclusivity on stage versus the backstage. Being in this type of role for, I'll just say it, for about 20 years, I'm used to being the only person and seeing the, and recruiting people and then having people who look like us say, oh my God, I didn't even know that was a job.

What are you talking about? And it's like, no, you can do this, you could do this, you could do this. And it's like, oh, I didn't know that. And so what, Nik, you and I had a conversation just recently at an event that was held here introducing all of the fellows so that they can get to know each other, and we talked, we, I'm gonna let, I'm not gonna speak for you, I'm gonna let you tell the story next.

[9:18] Nik Whitcomb: So we were at this mixer and she said to me, this is a Black event, and I said yes. And she said, and it's Broadway, and it was just so amazing. Like in our first year in our pilot season, we've been able to have over 30 Black theater workers working actively on Broadway shows in general management as producers, company management, scenic designing, line designing, directing, choreography. And it's just amazing because I think, you know, just like Jourdan was speaking to, someone's always gonna do a Hairspray and they're always gonna need somebody to be Seaweed. And so like they're there. What did you see, Seaweed though? No, I didn't, I didn't run and tell that. Okay, Jourdan.

[11:09] Jourdan Miller: But you know, so getting that access to be on stage has been a lot easier. Not the easiest, and not in the ways that represent us in the way that we would like to be represented in most times, but it's been easier because you need the people to fill those roles, just like on a technical sense. But what's been missing is, you know, the gatekeeping positions, like the people that are starting the conversation of like we're gonna build this show, and starting the conversation of like who's gonna be in the show, the agents that are presenting talent, the casting directors that are hiring folks, the production managers that are hiring the crews. These spaces have still are still lacking Black folks and folks of color in general. And so that's what I love about the work that we're doing with the Black Theater Coalition is that it's not about how do we get more people seen on stage, but it's how do we get more people in these offices?

[11:58] Nik Whitcomb: Um, that are how do we get more decision makers that look like us so that when they are thinking through their Rolodex of folks, they don't have to reach out and say, Hey, um, do you know how I can find black talent? One, we will do that for you. Um, and two, like if I'm a black person that's in that position, that's gonna be one of the first places I'm probably gonna start. Um, is like if I want to make a diverse world, we can't just start from uh, you know, putting people in in the cogs in the in the middle when we need them. We need to start at the top and say, we want you in a place where you can make the decision about who comes into the room. Um, so it was just so my whole soul was filled being in that space and just being talking to black producers, um, talking to folks that are have been working in general management offices that are making decisions at these production companies that are um on the ground working in rehearsals with directors and designing and and drafting sets for Broadway like that look like me.

Um yeah. And it's kind of to TaNisha's to TaNisha's earlier point is that we that we are not monoliths, like there's not just one way that's right of blackness, you know. We are as complex as everyone else, and that's how we start to see if we if we put more people in those roles of uh at the gatekeepers, that's how we start to see more more layered individuals, especially when we're talking about you know, people, people of color.

[13:28] Jourdan Miller: Um Jourdan, so you're doing scenic design, yes, uh, and you're partnered with the Tony Award winning Derek McClain. You gotta put that sauce on there. Yeah, I you know, he's worked with MJ's musical, he won his Tony from Rulan Rouge. Can you tell, um, can you tell our listeners what scenic design is and what made you what made you go that route because there are not very many people of color, let alone black people in the area of scenic design. Oh, not a single black person has won the Tony for scenic design. I already looked into it. It's on my like mood board at home of like that's I'm gonna break that. Um, there's gonna be someone who breaks it before me too. Her name is Teresa Williams, wonderful black scenic designer.

Oh right, awesome. Uh the show at Theater Row, the one woman show, brilliant scenic designer show, break it before me. But to answer your question, what is scenic design? Essentially, we're one of the first people hired to do a show. In a lot of cases, we should be the first people that a director reaches out to. Um, what we do is essentially we take the director's vision. Um, when we sit and read through the script, we come in with questions about how do we want to define this space using the set. Um, one of the most important questions that we have to answer is is the set a character in the show or is it not? Um, and then once we figure out is the set a character, okay. Well, who is that character?

And how can we use this tool and this very important visual medium to help aid the storytelling? Because if you notice, the first thing, as soon as you walk into a theater, you're looking at scenic design. That's how detailed our work goes. When you're walking through the house, when you're looking at, you know, the psych that is in to start the show, or if you're going to something like Hades Town is a perfect example, where the set is just there, or company where that beautiful LED psych uh comes in to start the show and at intermission, that's all scenic design. It's the first thing you see, it's the first thing you come into contact with before you come into a performer. So it's all about how do we aid the storytelling, and then from there, that's when you get into the technical mumbo jumbo of like we're sketching, then we're taking sketches in the Photoshops, we're building models in half inch and quarter inch, and then drafting in vector works, sending it to bid, you know, show up, excuse me, sending it to shops for bid packages.

We're sitting in tech and we're answering questions on the fly and figuring out what our issues are and how can we best combat them, you know. So it's a lot of detailed and logistical work to help in total aid the storytelling through visual means.

[16:20] TaNisha Fordham: Awesome. So T, tell us about your what has your experience been like? Who are you partnered with and what are you what are you working on? Yeah, so it's been really, really exciting. I started as the directing fellow for Marianne Elliott with the production company. It was super exciting. Um, and Marianne is very, very collaborative, which I think the best directors in the world are collect the best collaborators, and often understand that no one is the smartest voice in the room, that kind of everyone is the smartest at something, and all of us are very ignorant at many other things. And she approaches the work very much that way. Also, the cast is predominantly white cast, but the understudies are ironically predominantly people of color.

Um, and so that of course set up an interesting dynamic in terms of how do we translate, how does this translate in the bodies and voices and realities, even I'm talking about like internal realities of the people who are taking the stage as understudies to uh fill in for these principal characters. And so we had a lot of really difficult conversations, and I was so thankful to be in the room. And I think that because of that very unique dynamic and setup, I was given the opportunity to be hired full-time as the second associate director. So now I'm no longer a fellow. And that is what BTC is, right? BTC gives us an opportunity to be in rooms that we might not otherwise be in to prove that we're meant to be in those spaces.

That's the thing. The thing is not like just get in the room. The thing is, and so often I think that there are so many programs, so many fellowships and so many apprenticeships that are putting people in rooms with the ideology or the perspective that like we're training these people. But so often people don't need to be trained. People need the opportunity. Like I don't need the training. People have gone to college, people have degrees, they've already done shows. So many of us have had to be really specific about making our own opportunities. So I would almost venture to argue to Nick's earlier point, so many of us understand how to do all of the things. Whereas so many of the people who are right now in the rooms only really have a grasp or handle on how to master, have mastered that one thing.

Some of us had have had to master casting, we've had to master scenic design, we've had to master music direction, we've had to master writing, we've had to master PR and marketing and public relations because no one was going to do it for us. So we put our own thing together. And so I've just been so I've been encouraged by being in this space. And again, I can't say enough, Marion Elliott. I'm so thankful. It was so it was such a good experience to be in a room and to have a director who's already Tony Award nominated, Olivier Award winning, look at me and say, Well, what do you think? And you can tell that she really wants to know. And then also giving me the space. When we were in the rehearsal process, if there was like a note that I gave to her about an actor, she said, Oh, you go give it to him.

It was your note, and it's a good note, but I, you know, I didn't, you go give it to him. You go tell them. And so I've been thankful to be inside of such um uh warm and in inviting room. And then the last thing I'll say to answer your question is I continue to, and I encourage every any anyone who is listening to this, I continue to not wait for spaces to be created for me, not wait to be handed an opportunity. So I'm also writing, directing, and producing um the second annual theater in the park event for the city of Newark. Newark, New Jersey is the largest city in the state of New Jersey and doesn't have a theater. Now, how can that be? How can that be? And you have to ask these questions, why is that the case?

With all those people, with all the artists inside of the city, why are those people having to cross over a bridge to go to a theater? And so I took that to the mayor's off that question to the mayor's office last year, and they allowed they they funded, they financed us doing the first annual City in the Park, and they're bringing us back again this year. And I am just as committed to that space as I am to every Broadway space. I don't feel I don't, I'm not the person who walks into a church and is like, this church is gonna let me do a speech. It's a little less important than if I were doing it on Broadway. And I and I feel weird when language is like, oh, that thing off Broadway, that thing off off Broadway.

Oh, how many people are in the theater? Oh, just 175? Yeah, 175 of my people who, if I do a book, are gonna, they're gonna put their last dollar to buy my book or to come see my play. And in a room full of people where maybe there is more money. There is more of this. There is more of that. Do those people see me in the same way though? And so I think that making space and taking up room in both spaces is very, it's very, very important.

[21:11] Nik Whitcomb: Yes, Tanis.

[21:12] TaNisha Fordham: Yeah.

[21:14] Nik Whitcomb: Yes, because it's all about that access to opportunity. And that's something that we as black folks don't have a lot that don't get the opportunity to see. Even though I was a kid that took theater classes as a when I was little, my family didn't see theater. That wasn't something that we did as a family. And when I talked to my mom about it later, she's like, well, that's you know, white people do that. Like that is the way that it's seen in a lot of our culture. But just but that is, you know, because sometimes strategically we have been shut out of those spaces.

[21:41] TaNisha Fordham: That's interesting. Um, and and you know, I was I was just talking to somebody uh last week, and they were like, I just want to make sure I'm not just like in the room to check a box. Um, and I'm like, well, sometimes you are gonna be brought into that room to check a box, and that happens a lot. But guess what? You get to decide what you do while you're checking that box.

[21:57] Nik Whitcomb: That's right.

[21:58] TaNisha Fordham: Um, so so it's about how what opportunity can I create to leave the door open for someone else and what do I need to gain from this opportunity? Not necessarily what am I bringing to this space by existing in the space. I need to do more than exist in the space because there's work to do.

[22:11] Nik Whitcomb: That's right.

[22:12] TaNisha Fordham: That's right.

[22:13] Nik Whitcomb: I want to TaNisha and Nick, you both have talked about doing a myriad of things, right? And knowing how to do everything, and it kind of goes back to the I'm not gonna even call it a trope because it's true that we have to do 20 times we have to be 20 times better at times, so we have to do so much more than anyone else just to be seen as validated and valid.

[22:40] Jourdan Miller: And Nick, if yes, if we are there just to check a box, I'm going to do the most with that opportunity.

[22:49] Nik Whitcomb: So I'm putting a gold star in my box.

[22:52] TaNisha Fordham: That's wrong.

[22:56] Nik Whitcomb: But no, it's so interesting that you say that, Janine, because as I was looking for jobs, um, because I've been freelancer for a while, and I was like, I am not as young as I used to be, and this is hard, and then being scrappy is difficult. I need a job. Um, and before I was always told, well, you're not ready, you're not qualified enough. I went and I learned as much as I could about as many things as I could, because I was a black man coming from Omaha, and I was like, Y'all gonna be trying to take advantage of me all over the place. So let me learn everything. So I so there's no question of like how I'm being treated in the space. Um, but then as I was looking for a job, it became well, now you've done so many things. Are you sure you want to do this? And I'm like, y'all just always trying to find a way.

[23:35] Nik Whitcomb: Always trying to find a way.

[23:41] Jourdan Miller: Um, but you know, I I armed myself so that I could even know how to answer that question. And it's like, well, I had to build myself to this point because XYZ, or now that I have all these skills in these spaces, that makes me qualified to be in these rooms in these ways.

[23:56] TaNisha Fordham: Um, so it's always, you know, there's always like the duck and dodge and the Mary J. Blige that we're doing to like to navigate this world. But it's my work and my career has been about platforming myself so that I can have those conversations and now sharing that knowledge with others to be like, don't diminish the work that you've done, don't diminish that play you did in kindergarten, don't diminish that show that you did when you were at the church because yes, you were the lighting designer. Just because it was the past to being like, hey, go flip that switch on this word. That's Latin design. Uh-huh. That's right. Um now there are more pieces involved. Like it gets more complex as you go on.

But I'm like, don't diminish the things that you have done because that is how they keep us down. That's how they keep us out of spaces. It's by saying, we don't actually have experience there. And it's like, well, I haven't been given the chance to get the experience that you're seeking, but here's what I have done. And that training counts as well. Exactly. Exactly. Because here's I mean, and you all three of you have said it in many different ways, but still saying the same thing is that it wasn't that I didn't know how. And it wasn't that I needed to learn how. And I just needed a chance. And I am so grateful for VTC for finding you and for recognizing and what we what we have all known that, but unfortunately have never had the platform or the opportunity to shout from the rooftops, which is that yes, they're making strides on stage, but behind the stage, we are severely lacking.

And so for them to create this platform and to find folks like you all, and you know, to bring Nick on to help to lead this charge, you know, I am my heart is happy. I mean, and just and and seeing it in the room, and it's just like oh, this is so amazing to and to hear the energy and and to know that there is gonna be change because I keep hearing this this um well, this it's it's it's it's um it's the end thing right now. You know what? No, it's gonna be the end thing forever.

[26:15] Jourdan Miller: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Go ahead, Jourdan.

[26:18] Nik Whitcomb: No, I was just gonna say that. Like, I don't we're not making this a phase. Absolutely not. No, we we're gonna show up and show out in these rooms because too often it's just like, all right, we're gonna go through this now, and then we're gonna reserve it back to the exact same shit we've been doing. Like no, none of that, none of that. This time around, we're gonna make sure that we have staying power. Now we have to put the industry on notice. Like, are you going to be a part of this? Because it's happening whether you like it or not.

[26:45] TaNisha Fordham: And I and can I piggyback off of what he's saying real quick? I think too, the other thing that is just it's just I just want to keep saying, I know I've already said it, but I do want to reiterate and just change up what I'm saying too, and also to value ourselves and to value our spaces. And I I mean, I don't, I think the tech industry to me is one of the industries where this is the most visible, but it happens even in the theater space, in the film space and the performance space, which is the tech industry, people with five dollars and a garage have an idea. Somebody's like, I know how to solder something, somebody's like, Well, I know how to program, somebody's like, I got some metal scrap in the back of this garage, and then you come out five, ten years later, and it's freaking Apple.

It's Apple. I mean, that is the story of Steve Jobs. That's literally how it happened. I mean, someone was super, and of course, they had all of the knowledge, and of course, they had many of the tools from an intellectual perspective, but Steve Jobs dropped out of college. Now, nobody makes a whole to-do about that because he valued himself. And I'm not saying this is not my case for like, don't do what you need to do, don't you know, graduate from college. I have a master's degree. So, this is not that at all. But this is me saying we have to value ourselves. I think so often we value other people's rooms more. We're so desperate to get in those rooms, and then when we're in the rooms, we just we literally just take a complete A line or B, is it a B line?

We take a line away from what we were a B line. Thank you, thank you. We take a B line away from what we were working on. We were building empires, we were writing songs, we were writing plays. I had this brilliant, not literally me, but Jourdan's got this brilliant idea about what something could look like scenically. But then we take a complete B line away away from that thing because we're like, there's more value in this thing in this room in being associated with this other person. And then sometimes we have to concede our own greatness in rooms with people being the second to someone that we know we are smarter than, that we know we're more compassionate than, we're a harder worker than.

In addition to yes, Broadway's gotta clear the way. I agree a thousand percent. But I also think if we just take up space, because listen, you take up space on the corner of 45th and 8th, because you don't need a license, you don't need anybody's budget, nothing to take up space on the corner of 45th and eighth. And I promise you, if you took up space, enough space and it was loud enough and it had enough people behind you, someone from Broadway would come and find you and be like, hey, can we we want you to take up some space inside of our spaces? Right. And so I think we also have to value our own thing enough that we can really change and shift the industry so that we're not just coming into the industry and trying to like piecemeal things together, but that we're also actually like making changes.

[29:46] Nik Whitcomb: Yes. And the and that's what I love about the work of BTC. And what I'm what I'm trying to do is we develop the program so that it's not just okay, you get to come in for this moment and then goodbye, or not just cool, and now you get to work at this general management company or whatever it is, but like how do we develop our ecosystem? How do we how do we develop a space so that once you are a part of this cohort, you are always a part of this cohort. And now we build our own network. So that it's like, hey, um, I Tanisha is actually looking for an assistant for this thing. Let me hook you up with her. Um, Jourdan is the CN designer, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you over there. Um, and like how do we continue the the lines that we create for one another?

That's right. Um to continue to make those spaces and to develop our own worth and value, like outside of just like, you know, the because yes, you need to believe in yourself, but also real talk. A lot of times some of these folks have access to dollars and resources that we don't have. Um, and so like if we can create that within ourselves, if we are actively training producers to be able to get into these rooms and understand the conversations of how are they moving? My work is about how we create wealth and sustainability and access for the next generation.

[30:53] Jourdan Miller: Yeah. Um, and so like the the work that we're doing in the coalition is not just about creating opportunity for a space or a moment, but it's like how do we make an ecosystem that will live beyond all of us and keep us all connected through the end of, you know, the end of time.

[31:09] TaNisha Fordham: Well, we just gotta we gotta stop tripping over each other, you know. I mean, it's been set up that way. We've been so conditioned now, like only one can make it, you know. So we all trying to fight over the exact same spot, you know, we all trying to push our way. It's kind of like traffic, you know, they bottlenecked us into this one lane when in reality we just gotta figure out how to open these other lanes up and let each other through, take each other arm in arm and just say we're gonna do it together. And that's what I love most about this fellowship is just being able to take arm in arm with a bunch of people who otherwise I wouldn't have got a chance to meet for various other reasons. It's it's enough for everybody. We could all eat, we just gotta divvy it all out, and we gotta make sure we're staying in it together.

[31:48] Nik Whitcomb: Yeah, right. I like to say Burger King and McDonald's coexist.

[31:56] TaNisha Fordham: So can we? Nobody is missing any meals.

[31:58] Jourdan Miller: That's right. Over in either one of those corporations. And that list is even longer. Gulvers.

[32:03] TaNisha Fordham: Yeah. Five guys, Jack and Bob. Wendy's. You don't make me hungry, okay?

[32:11] Nik Whitcomb: And they none of them people endorsing us. I mean, let's take it way back. You know, like black folks, we are uh, you know, as Jourdan said, we create culture. Um, we are folks that have been in space and surviving through community for years. Um, and it wasn't until very specific reasons pulled us apart and taught us not to do that with each other. Um, and so like we have been, we are conditioned to do that. And it's always funny whenever you're in a show, whenever you get the chance to be in a show that's like fully black, and you're like, wow, like this room is different. Like, like the way in which we do things is different, the way we communicate is different. And and those things start happening through osmosis.

Like you're just talking and you're like, oh, you know what? I know somebody that can help with that. Or let me call this person because you you sang it right now, and I need you to go do that over there. Um, or like you like building stuff, cool. You're about to go tear down this set, or whatever it is. Like, that's just that's how we have always gotten things done as black people since the beginning of time. Um, and so it's it's not, it's it's not even about relearning that. I mean, not yeah, not relearning, it's just like coming back. We are we have it in us, it's in our DNA. It's just coming back to that and knowing that it's we can't be competing with each other if we're going to get to the next level.

[33:28] TaNisha Fordham: Yeah, and our leaders at BTC are the best example of that. Warren is directing a show or just his show just opened last night. T Oliver just took the stage a couple of weeks ago at Hayes Town. So I just feel like there's always the I love that our leadership is showing us that. Like they're the leaders and the pioneers and are still hands to the ground doing it because it really doesn't stop. You've got to have the ability to kind of finesse many spaces, many different kinds of people. And you have to have the kind of common and gut sense about who your audience is and what you're doing in each specific room and being okay with that too.

[34:08] Nik Whitcomb: You know, I I text Mary Ann. When I text Mary Ann, how I text Mary An is different than how I text Warren, which is different than how I text Nick, which would be different than how I text Jourdan if I were to be in comp we need to get each other's numbers so I could text you. Okay. That's all she wanted from you. She's using this example and be like, I don't have your numbers. What if I had said how he would have called me out right now? But so I think that there's a lot of beauty in being able to be multifaceted and be kind of agile, and it's and it's beautiful as an artist because I don't want to do the same thing all the time. To be honest, I love the LED lights of company, but I'm gonna tell you what, I'm gonna tell you what.

Doing superhero assistant directing superhero with Warren, hearing them play the music that was from my childhood, like every day in rehearsal. I was just almost in tears, in a puddle of tears. The people that Warren was working with and directing, those were like, that was my mom, my father, my and so there's something really special about that space too. But I don't wanna be, I don't wanna not be in either space. I wanna be in both spaces. And so I I love what Nick is saying about and so I love what Nick is saying. As black people, we're so used to having to externally connect to an experience that's not necessarily written for us. It's very much written for a certain demographic of people, which is fine.

That's the dominant demographic of people, but our experience and our perspective still matters, and society teaches us that because again, like I said, the culture doesn't move forward without our perspective.

[35:43] TaNisha Fordham: So it felt nice being in these rooms where art is being crafted for us by us. Um, and it just makes me want to continue that because it's needed, and they know they need it as well. You know, they arguably probably need it more than we do, so that they can finally gain some sort of understanding to what we've been shouting about for decades and centuries. So I totally, totally agree with you, TaNisha. Like it feels good to be in a room, the rooms that speak to us in our experience. And it's how we move forward as an industry, and it's how we truly reflect, you know, the world in which we live in. We cannot, we cannot eliminate any one culture and then call it art and say that it represents because it's not complete.

And so the picture isn't finished. So let's put a pin there. Talking about the picture not being finished and creating space for others to come behind us. So BTC is starting another application process. And you want to talk a little bit about that, Nick?

[36:55] Nik Whitcomb: Yes, absolutely. So we are finishing our first season, which we're like in the middle now, which is amazing. So we have proof of concept. So we're going to do it again. So there are we have two kind of like tracks that we work on. So we have the apprenticeships, which are actually short-term, one week to six months. And those are kind of project specific. So we just had a couple on Beetlejuice. We had someone in Sound Effects, excuse me, special effects, and we had someone on the production assistant team just for tech. We have a couple on Hangmen, there's a directing apprentice there, and there's a company management apprentice there. Um, and so those kind of come up as they do. So those are always happening.

Look out for those on our social media. Um, for the official launch of our next season of fellowships, that's gonna be on May 1st. Um, and we have fellowships everywhere. We're gonna have folks in agencies, casting offices, um, producing houses, general management companies again, um, designers, directors, choreographers. Um, and those are $50,000 for the year. Um, our apprenticeships pay a thousand dollars a week. So no matter what we do, we are making sure that when we come to the table, we're like, you know, you're gonna pay for the value of the person that you're getting. Um, but May 1st, we open those applications, it'll be open through June 30th. Um, and then the placement will start around July and August.

And just by the nature of Broadway and the way things go, the placement will happen as it does when they arise. You will hear from us and know like what's going on. Um, but it's always a moving timepiece and always moving things with shows opening, shows closing, limited engagement, full runs, open ended run. Um, so bear with us. There will be a lot happening, but it's coming and it's exciting. And I'm I hope that you know you all send us those applications. And what I love about this is that it's multi-generational. Um, it's not just for people right out of college, it's not just people that are established, or we support emerging, mid-career, and career changing individuals. So that is who we're here for.

And that can run the gamut from age 18 to the end of that line, whatever it is. So no matter if you think that you're too old for an apprenticeship or too old for a fellowship or it's too late, or if you're like, I don't know if I'm ready yet, you are. There's a place for you. Please apply, and we will find that space.

[39:16] TaNisha Fordham: And not only that, though, Nick, it's not just in New York. It's not just in the Tri-State area, correct?

[39:21] Nik Whitcomb: Correct. So we have most of our opportunities are on Broadway in New York right now, but we also have the Broadway Across America Fellowship with the John Gore organization. And so that's this year with six fellows. Hopefully, we're getting more next year. Um, but they're placed around the country in different Broadway Across America offices. And we are hoping to continue that expansion um and to also get on the ground in the middle of the. I mean, I'm an Omaha boy, as we've talked about. Um, and so like I want to know how can we get to the Midwest? Um how do we how do we infiltrate the nonprofit structure? Right. Um, how do we get into more spaces in the university so that we can start building that pipeline early?

Um, so it's you know, it's about how do we explain because it's the illusion of inclusion does not just exist in New York. No, um the illusion of inclusion exists all over the country, all over the world. Um I want to be global. I want to go everywhere. Okay. So that's the hope is that in this next year, as we continue to develop these partnerships and find more resources and avenue for partnership and and diversify the kind of partnerships. Like right now it's fellowship and apprenticeship, but there may be something else that we can pick up and other ways that we can work with folks. So it's all over the country is the goal. So yes.

[40:35] Gennean Scott: So before we wrap up, I would like for each of you to just give one little piece of advice to those who are who may be on the fence or who maybe early on their journey. You could just give them a piece of advice or a word of encouragement, real quick. We'll start with you. Jordan, you want to go?

[40:55] Jourdan Miller: Sure. Absolutely. I guess my biggest piece of advice is to bet on yourself. Do it. Um for me personally, I didn't realize how much I was capable of until I got in these rooms. And I very much believed in myself. I just needed the validation of like, oh yeah, I'm as good as I think I am, and I'm as good as I know how good I'm going to be. But you can't know how good you are till you jump in. So you gotta go. You gotta just go get it for yourself because it's better to have gone and tried than to have never tried at all. So go get it, go get that validation because you are as good as you think you are. I believe me, you are.

[41:45] TaNisha Fordham: Okay, I have two small things. I love these kinds of things. Like, what's the last? Okay, let's go quickly. Anyways, sorry, I was about to ramble. One is like, we are not alone. Like Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick, Nick. That's why I always say, Nick, Nick, Nick. Okay, anyways. Nick, I have just been so inspired by listening to you talk and watching you in my little, I know they're only gonna hear it, but like I'm watching you in the little in the little box. You're inspiring to me because I can just see the grace of God alive in you. And I'm not being funny. When you said at the very top, you did this and you did that and you did this and you did that, and I'm listening to you, I'm like, this boy is smart.

This is a smart man on this call right now. Everything you have done up to this point was preparing you for this moment. And that inspires me as someone who kind of always feels a little like lost in the sauce. Like this is working right now, but what does this have to do with like what is going to be the eventual thing? And so that's the thing number one. Like, we're not by ourselves. We're not alone. We're in rooms with other people. My husband's right next door. And like, we gotta remember that. We get so like committed to a chase that it's like I can just call Nick to be like, do you want to go get a hamburger from one of these places? Wendy's, Burger King, McDonald's, you know what I'm saying?

The answer is always yes. So that's thing number one. We're not alone, and we should learn how to like really reach out to each other just to check in on each other because those of us who are well in mind, body, and soul are more effective at whatever it is that we've been called to do.

[43:12] Nik Whitcomb: So that's thing number one. And then the second thing is BTC, I'm so excited for the next cohort of people. I can't, I cannot speak how excited I am because this was the this we were the pioneer group. We were the first group. Things were still being figured out. Some of us got called like a day or two before we were going to start the thing. So this next iteration of people, there's a groundwork that's been laid and that's being laid. And so I'm so encouraged and excited, excited for those people. And my hope is that you'll, those people will remember what my mentor said, which is my mentor is a filmmaker, and he's always telling me, like, I can get you in the room. It's up to you what you do when you get in there.

You can know the most powerful person, the richest person. You can have access to the best rooms. You can be with the most creative people who are willing to just open the world to you. But if when you get in that room, you are not prepared, and that starts with what I just said before. That starts with mind, body, and soul. It doesn't even start with the other stuff. Because you got to be a good person, a person who people want to work with, a person who people want to be around. But then the second thing is if you don't got the information, what difference is it gonna make? So people who are listening now, start preparing now. Don't wait till Nick calls you and says, like, we like the resume.

Let's do an interview. And you're like, oh my God, I don't actually know how to do these things. Like they're on my resume, but I don't actually know how to do them. So as we get into rooms, like let's be as most prepared as we can to do what we need to do once we get in those rooms.

[44:55] Nik Whitcomb: Love it. And Nick, um Yes. Uh first of all, thank you. That was very kind. Um I love you too. You inspire me every day. Um, one, show up. You know, I think so often we have just been conditioned not to, or the thing in your mind is they don't actually want me there. Um, and that might be true, but you should still go. Um, because they need to see that you're there and that you exist and that you're ready to do the job. Um, so show up is number one. Um and and number two is like, uh believe in yourself, like TaNisha was saying earlier, and and like Jourdan said, like, believe in that power that you have inside of you, but also like water that network. Like you never know where the next thing is gonna come from.

Uh, like I learned that from working in casting. Like, people are always like, How do I get myself out there? I'm like, you gotta show up, you gotta go see shows, you gotta talk to people, you gotta send that follow-up email, you gotta email them quarterly. Um, like you have to let people know I'm here and ready to do things, and you never know where that network will lead you. You gotta trust your network and like keep in touch with folks that you get that feeling about. Um, especially the black folks, we have feelings. Um, when you feel that thing, you like that's a good person. Keep that person in your pocket. Um, because they probably have that feeling about you too. And it's good to water that relationship so that you can get to the next steps and and break down the barriers, not just to get into the spaces that we're not in, but to then learn how to make the spaces that we want to with and for each other.

[46:18] Gennean Scott: So thank you, TaNisha, Jourdan, Nick. It has been amazing talking to you all. And I am so looking forward to what the future holds for each of you.

[46:32] TaNisha Fordham: Thank you.

[46:33] Jourdan Miller: Thank you.

[46:34] Nik Whitcomb: Thank you for having us. This is lovely.

[46:36] Gennean Scott: Yeah, yes, and Janine creating this platform to like really talk about the work that we're doing and amplify it and say, look, here's here's here. This is the big proof of concept that like these people exist. Um, and here they are talking about how they got here and and why it's important for us to stay here. So thank you for making this platform for having us.

[46:57] Gennean Scott: Oh, you are so welcome. You're so welcome.

[47:03] Gennean Scott: I want to thank our guests and you, our listeners. You could have been doing anything else, but you chose to spend your time with me, and I am grateful. Be sure to subscribe at bpn.fm slash bbb, so you'll never miss an episode. While you're at it, tell a friend. I'm your host, Gennean Scott, and we at the Broadway League hope you enjoy this episode of the Black Business of Broadway.