This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:06] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:08] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:10] Liz Esten: And I'm Liz Esten.

[0:11] Jesse McAnally: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew and Liz to like musical theater. How are we doing today, kids?

[0:16] Liz Esten: I'm doing great.

[0:19] Andrew DeWolf: I'm very excited to talk about Elton John, who's my favorite artist.

[0:22] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Um, it's also Saturday night, y'all. What are we doing?

[0:26] Liz Esten: That's all right for fighting, right?

[0:28] Andrew DeWolf: That's right. I mean, that's what we're talking about.

[0:30] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, yeah, totally.

[0:31] Liz Esten: Yeah.

[0:33] Andrew DeWolf: Saturday night's alright for fighting.

[0:36] Jesse McAnally: Saturday night's alright.

[0:37] Liz Esten: But that's what we're talking about, right?

[0:40] Jesse McAnally: You know what? I'm done.

[0:45] Andrew DeWolf: I don't even I don't know what we're talking about.

[0:48] Jesse McAnally: Literally, this entire show, the premise of this show is every Saturday night they just sit on a porch. That is the structure that this show is working off of.

[0:58] Andrew DeWolf: And we decided not to lean into that and just make Elton John references.

[1:02] Jesse McAnally: What what's wrong with that?

[1:04] Andrew DeWolf: I guess nothing.

[1:05] Jesse McAnally: We're recording this on a Wednesday.

[1:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, this is a Wednesday.

[1:08] Jesse McAnally: It's in a Saturday.

[1:09] Andrew DeWolf: You know what? Um that's about right for this show.

[1:14] Jesse McAnally: Um, guys, it is our second to last song time we'll ever do on this show.

[1:19] Andrew DeWolf: Because the man's dead now.

[1:21] Jesse McAnally: Um and for that, I honestly this is kind of poetic, if you think about it. Because our second to last song time is the first thing he ever wrote professionally.

[1:31] Andrew DeWolf: And the last song time is the last thing he wrote professionally.

[1:36] Jesse McAnally: And his first show never hit Broadway, and his last show will likely never hit Broadway. So I think they are of a piece together, and they're also connected by the fact that we're gonna have to fucking do some work to Google the fucking plot and figure it out, and mystery pull piecemealed this together to be able to understand what the fuck's going on.

[1:56] Andrew DeWolf: Jess has a a conspiracy wall behind him.

[2:04] Jesse McAnally: I will and they never made an e-book version of this, so there's no online resource that has this doubled, so I have to actually physically look through the book.

[2:13] Andrew DeWolf: Every time we've done Sondheim episodes with finishing the hatless, Jess types them in the document with his own hands.

[2:22] Jesse McAnally: Um yeah, so this week, in case you haven't picked up or thrown down, we are covering Sondheim's very first professional musical.

[2:30] Andrew DeWolf: Don't don't come at me with, oh yeah, he wrote By George.

[2:33] Jesse McAnally: Are you ever gonna cover By George?

[2:35] Andrew DeWolf: No, we're not gonna cover By George. He wrote that in high school, and even he admits it's terrible. And the only reason why we know anything about it is because he released like barely anything. We're not covering that. It doesn't count.

[2:44] Jesse McAnally: This week we're covering Saturday Night. Cue the music.

[2:52] ♪ Musical number: "Saturday Night" — performed by Jesse McAnally ♪

[3:13] Jesse McAnally: That's what I call a lovely view. So Saturday Night is a musical written by Julius J. Epstein with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim's at the age of 22. Um, based on Front Porch in Flatbush by Julius J. Epstein and Philip G. Epstein. The first professional musical written by Stephen Sondheim's, Saturday Night was intended to open on Broadway in 1955. However, after the sudden death of its lead producer, the show is shelved for 40 years. Sondheim then went on to make his professional premiere in 1957 as the lyricist for West Side Story. What a pivot. Um, following a student production, Saturday Night was staged at the Bridewell Theater in London in 1970-1997, and then in Chicago in 1999, and off Broadway in 2000.

The musical also ran in the West End in 2009. Saturday Night tells the unassuming story of a group of Brooklyn boys trying to make good in the stock market in 1929. Unfortunately, one of them, Gene, is so eager to climb the social ladder and impress his sweetheart that he invests his friend's money into a swank apartment near the Brooklyn Bridge, even going as far to sell the gang's precious automobile. Um and really that's about it. That's that's that's it's a classic musical in the early days of musical theater, very much in the brand of Rogers and Hammerstein, and it's obvious that's what Sondheim is aping here and just trying to make that work. Um, Andrew, what did you think of Saturday Night?

[4:55] Andrew DeWolf: It's it exists. It's it's one of the Broadway shows of all time.

[4:59] Jesse McAnally: Not Broadway, never made it to Broadway.

[5:01] Andrew DeWolf: It's one of the Sondheim shows of all time. I have very, very little strong opinions about this. It's it feels like Sondheim's before Sondheim, which I guess it is, but it's like he's just doing music theater with no twists, with no edge, with nothing else. It's just he's just doing music theater, it feels like. And I don't think that's what people like Sondheim for, and that's not really what I liked Sondheim for. Um, but here it is. There's an interesting quote in his memoirs, basically, uh Finishing the Hat, where he's describing um performing this for another composer called Ar Arlen, where he's really trying to show off. And I think it sums up the show pretty well to me, where he was really just playing the music, impressing everyone, and he comes up to Sondheim and he said, Don't be afraid to not write a blockbuster.

And I think that sums up what this show is. Hit Sondheim trying to bring his best, like most effective, like powder the back of the room effort to every song, where every song feels like the eleven o'clock number, which means they all kind of blur together. And what really solidifies a Sondheim musical for us really didn't come until like Anyone Can Whistle with um the big numbers where it's like, holy shit. There there's only one holy shit number for me, and it's a ballad, and that's it. It's it's interesting that this even ever came back. And I feel like the only reason that really did was because it has Sondheim's name on it.

[6:39] Jesse McAnally: I would Maybe that's not true, but see I agree and disagree. So I think a lot of the reason why this came back, um the play itself is fairly well known. The original the original play that Sondheim based it on, which there's an interesting story on how he got the rights and ability to do that. Um the Front Porch in Flatbush, um, is a well-known show. So the fact that Sondheim adapted a well-known show um is pretty notable, and that no one really got to see it. And as well, a lot of these songs did show up in reviews, such as Marry Me a Little and Putting It Together and Science. So these songs in and of themselves did become fan favorites. So like things like So Many People and It's like eventually we have to actually show the whole thing.

[7:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. Kind of.

[7:27] Jesse McAnally: And Sondheim was asked, does he want to change anything? And he said, no, it's baby photos, and you don't really adjust baby pictures. Which is a very kind of I think it's the better way to do it. And I think he agrees that this is much more interesting as a fossil, as something that we kind of look back at as a novelty rather than a proper show. And I wonder if it did have its original Broadway premiere, if Stephen Sondheim's would be the man that we know today.

[7:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, because like how would this show have actually done if it was debuted in 1955? And he wasn't originally the West Side Story guy. He was the Saturday Night guy. But Saturday Night, the songs that he wrote for this is how he got West Side Story. Like having these songs ready to prepare and perform and show out of circulation of the show itself gets him a lot of work. But that could also just be like a thing you did in college so you can like get a better job. It's like, oh, you have potential. Like, sure, it's potential, but like is it a great show if you put it all together in that time period specifically? It's interesting thought, but we will never know.

[8:47] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is the plot of Saturday Night, Andrew?

[8:51] Andrew DeWolf: I know you really looked into this, and it's really, really effective. There's a bunch of characters, bunch of bros. They love hanging out on their porch on Saturday night, but they're tired of hanging out on their porch on Saturday night. They want to do something, you know. Um, I think they want to meet a girl.

[9:09] Jesse McAnally: I would assume that that's their motivation.

[9:12] Andrew DeWolf: At least at least some of their motivation. I think his motivation is to get rich. And they just like kind of want to get dates as well while also being rich.

[9:20] Jesse McAnally: Well, I think part of it is they go out and they try to get dates and they pretend they're rich, but then they want to actually be rich.

[9:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[9:27] Jesse McAnally: So they try to get rich quick. And one of their friends or one of the people they meet, I don't know if it's one of their friends, they like meet somebody, and he tries to sell them on this stock.

[9:37] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, it's one of their friends.

[9:38] Jesse McAnally: It's one of their friends.

[9:39] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Okay, so one of their friends is like, yo, we should all buy this a stock. It's great, a great investment. It flops, it's a terrible stock, and uh it it just goes terribly. Um so now they're broke, and somebody I think has to like steal a car or something.

[9:58] Jesse McAnally: I I don't remember.

[9:59] Andrew DeWolf: No, he sells his cousin's car to pay.

[10:01] Jesse McAnally: He sells his cousin's learn.

[10:02] Andrew DeWolf: Sells his cousin's car to pay for the lease for a fancy apartment for his new girlfriend because he said he was rich.

[10:08] Jesse McAnally: Because he still wants to be rich.

[10:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he said he was rich. But then he's gonna get in trouble, but he ends up not getting in trouble, and then the show ends. And they live happily ever after, because the girlfriend forgives him somehow and so on.

[10:22] Jesse McAnally: So for gore.

[10:24] Andrew DeWolf: I forgot.

[10:25] Jesse McAnally: Pretty good, pretty good summation. Um, I'm come I'm compelled by this show because A, it's something that Sondheim never really did aside from his first couple shows, which is write about young people as a young person. He was in his 20s at the time, writing about people in their 20s and the struggles, and from that point of view. And you see a lot of things that we wouldn't see later, like impressive being impressive just for the sake of being impressive, and a lot of lyrical fanciness for the sake of lyrical fanciness, and his self-proclaimed sins um as a songwriter. Um, such as things that I love, like um, as I said, So Many People is one of my favorite Sondheim songs ever written. And he says, Yeah, the phrase doesn't work, and it feels like uh incomplete thought, and I'm like, yes, but that's what makes it beautiful.

Like, specifically the line, I could have for so much less than what I had planned in all the magazines. He's like, that feels like a complete thought to start with, and it's wrong because she stops. And I'm like, no, that's what makes it pretty. So it's a man not understanding the value of his own work in the time, in the context, and it's removed. And if you're actually reading the Finishing the Hat book, you can see his handwriting was much better in his twenties than they are in his 70s.

[11:51] Andrew DeWolf: I I think that's just life.

[11:54] Jesse McAnally: I think it it's always difficult as any sort of artist or anything to look at um your own early work and be actually appreciative of it and not embarrassed.

[12:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[12:07] Jesse McAnally: I mean, there's a process, I think. Like at first, 10 years. You look back at something you made 10 years ago. Ooh, really cringe. 20 years ago, oh look at that kid. 70 to 80 years ago, 40 years ago, then it's like, oh my god, what was I doing? Like, what what what ambition I had?

[12:28] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[12:28] Jesse McAnally: Why would I even try this? Um, but does any of it work? Is any of it effective to you guys?

[12:34] Andrew DeWolf: I I don't think it's ineffective, it's just it doesn't have that Sondheim like edge, in my opinion.

[12:46] Jesse McAnally: It doesn't have anything to say about society that I find interesting that you're not getting from something else.

[12:54] Andrew DeWolf: It's like you're listening when you listen to it, it's enjoyable. It's like, okay, this is perfectly pleasant, and then like you're done and it doesn't sit. It's like, oh, that was good, but it doesn't like make you think like some other shows might, like about just general life shit. It's like this is perfectly fine, but it's not like groundbreaking in any way, which is there's nothing wrong with that. You're allowed to not make groundbreaking work, especially when you're 22 years old, but like pass through one ear out the other at a certain point.

[13:25] Jesse McAnally: And also, this art form was so new at the time.

[13:28] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, like 1954, Oklahoma was only 10 years ago. This art form existed only 10 years, really.

[13:37] Jesse McAnally: So the man that's gonna change it was there should be no expectation for him to change it right away.

[13:44] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Um no, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not that I have expectations for it, it's that this is just a normal musical.

[13:54] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. It's not if you go into this thinking like this is where Sondheim changed everything. No, he jumped on the scene, and oh my god, music theater was born. It's just like, no. This is like this is just there, he's just he's just aping like Rogers and Hammerstein type stuff. To his own admission. Yeah, this is not doing it like better than them or anything like that. He's just kind of doing it. This is the this is the project you make your first semester of college just to like kind of like get the creative juices flowing and then you figure out what you want to do with your own vision of things. But that being said, there's some fascinating pieces that would come, you know, much later. Like it you can see where he's going later from from this early days. Now here's where it struggles. The character work and all this other stuff in this play.

[14:48] Andrew DeWolf: So Sondheim reached out to the playwright directly with his music and a binder, more or less, and said, Hey, can I can I adapt your play, please? Here's some of the songs, and then the the Ep scene just basically sent him back with a signed license saying, Yeah, go ahead, and charged only two dollars, I believe.

[15:11] Jesse McAnally: And what year was this?

[15:14] Andrew DeWolf: This was 1954. I want to see what two dollars is making. And his Sondheim even claims, like, yeah, that was big money to me back then. Um and he was a little upset, like, I guess he kept the binder because I didn't get that back. But he wrote the fucking play.

[15:31] Jesse McAnally: Well, he had his songs in it.

[15:34] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, he couldn't get his songs back?

[15:36] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, so that was his only comment. Also, $2 in 1954 was like $23.30 now.

[15:45] Andrew DeWolf: That's still like nothing.

[15:46] Jesse McAnally: It's nothing. It's yeah, it's still well, if you're a kid and all that, like, remember, fresh out of college boy. Um that you know, things were just there there is, I think something to the fact that things were maybe kind of better back then in in the in some senses. Like, I don't think you could just mail a binder to a writer nowadays and be like, Can I buy your work?

[16:11] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but I don't think that would happen.

[16:12] Jesse McAnally: That wouldn't work. You'd have to go through some like ridiculous official channels and jump through eight million hoops, and you'd have to have your own representation and a lawyer and like.

[16:21] Andrew DeWolf: Also it would take like two seconds, take like months and months of back and forth of negotiating contracts.

[16:26] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it would cost you of like a million dollars or something.

[16:30] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. You know, there's there's something about the ability to just everything's just so laid back and it's just so slow. Sure, adapt my work. I don't care.

[16:39] Jesse McAnally: I think phones and the internet ruined it.

[16:42] Andrew DeWolf: But yeah, that's a fun story though.

[16:45] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's fun. And it just goes like cause Sondheim, her so we uh we this story's been heard to death, but you know what? We're wrapping up this show. In case you haven't noticed, we've only got like three episodes left of this our show as possible. We got this one, another one, and then here we are, which is the last Sondheim.

[17:07] Andrew DeWolf: Which is what excites me so much about this is because this is like the antithesis to here we are.

[17:14] Jesse McAnally: Um, which I'm so excited for you two to listen to and dive into and really analyze. Because this is so straightforward and it's his first piece, and here we are is his most avant-garde, the most like too much knives, where this is too much cake, that is too much knives. Like, one is the hope of a young man looking forward to a bright future, and the other is the bitter anger for what this art form eventually became.

[17:44] Liz Esten: Damn. Did he finish it like right before he died, or was it finished for a hot minute?

[17:49] Andrew DeWolf: That is a good question.

[17:51] Jesse McAnally: Okay. Um, it is debated.

[17:54] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[17:55] Jesse McAnally: Sondheim did live through like from the start of music theater all the way up to essentially now.

[18:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[18:02] Jesse McAnally: Yes. I mean, when we're recording this, he's been he's been dead for like what, two years?

[18:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, two years.

[18:06] Jesse McAnally: Two years.

[18:07] Andrew DeWolf: So really not that long.

[18:09] Jesse McAnally: So he lived through a lot. And what yeah, like what did he he saw music theater go from Oklahoma to movie adaptations nonstop, you know?

[18:23] Andrew DeWolf: And that's what here we are is about as a musical is his response to modern musical theater and his strangely strange takes on it, which is why this optimism feels so strange to me.

[18:41] Jesse McAnally: Um and to answer your question, Liz, did he finish it? They claim the folks that are still around David Ives and all that, claim, yeah, this was finished. Like, we always intended for Act 2 to have no songs.

[18:55] Liz Esten: Um, so it wasn't done when he died.

[18:59] Jesse McAnally: Alright.

[19:00] Liz Esten: Well, they say, no, no, no, that was the choice we made.

[19:02] Jesse McAnally: I don't believe that.

[19:03] Andrew DeWolf: That's bullshit.

[19:06] Jesse McAnally: Because the music died.

[19:07] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, the music died when he died.

[19:10] Jesse McAnally: That is they do it is a part of the story that the music dies and no one sings anymore.

[19:17] Andrew DeWolf: Like, they do incorporate it into the Okay to the narrative.

[19:20] Jesse McAnally: Um it it it is very strange and avant-garde. Um, you will this is just me personally prepping you guys for what we're gonna have to do next time, which is you guys are gonna have to actually really think and read and look at the the book and look at the structure and come up with opinions because I've listened to this 45 times and I think my take is interesting, but I don't know if you guys will agree with it.

[19:48] Liz Esten: Uh-huh.

[19:49] Andrew DeWolf: Get hype for our Here We Are finale, guys.

[19:49] Jesse McAnally: Here we are.

[19:53] Liz Esten: I feel so much pressure now.

[19:55] Andrew DeWolf: My god.

[19:56] Jesse McAnally: Imagine how every critic in the world felt when watching that once.

[20:01] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's true.

[20:02] Jesse McAnally: And then we're honestly gonna do that and then immediately afterwards put out Kick Assia.

[20:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[20:08] Jesse McAnally: Which is really Doug Walker's Here We Are if you think about it.

[20:16] Andrew DeWolf: I mean Sondheim has been our one really boon. Every time we have something going on with every time we knew that we were gonna deal with something rough, I always knew there was gonna be another Sondheim to look forward to.

[20:33] Jesse McAnally: And now we no longer have that.

[20:35] Andrew DeWolf: There was so like the frogs. We always had the frogs that was coming, and then we did that, and then we had Forum, and we've done that, and it's really sad that we're wrapping up this um now, and we're kind of covering all of them.

[20:50] Jesse McAnally: And yeah, we're not doing the reviews, we're not doing Marry Me a Little, because Alright, let's let's do a mini corner on that, because obviously not much talk about it at Saturday night.

[20:50] Andrew DeWolf: Marry Me a Little is a review of songs that were cut from other Sondheim shows.

[21:07] Jesse McAnally: Um tied together to kind of make a plot.

[21:11] Andrew DeWolf: Uh-huh.

[21:12] Jesse McAnally: So it's like a review.

[21:15] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[21:15] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[21:16] Andrew DeWolf: But there's two Marry Me a Littles.

[21:18] Jesse McAnally: Like, what's the other?

[21:19] Andrew DeWolf: The other one is Jason Tam and some Laney.

[21:22] Jesse McAnally: They're still the same, but they added new songs that he had written.

[21:27] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[21:28] Jesse McAnally: Because that's confusing.

[21:30] Andrew DeWolf: I only got two albums.

[21:31] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[21:32] Andrew DeWolf: He's adding adding his trash.

[21:34] Jesse McAnally: He's like, this is my waste bucket.

[21:36] Andrew DeWolf: But the problem is his trash is so fucking good.

[21:39] Jesse McAnally: Like, so if you look at this, Marry Me a Little starts with Saturday night from the musical Saturday Night.

[21:46] Andrew DeWolf: Um, has a bunch of songs cut from Follies and a little night music, um, including a few that were cut from Forum, but a lot of them are from Saturday night.

[21:55] Liz Esten: That's interesting.

[21:56] Andrew DeWolf: Well, at the time did he consider Saturday night the entire thing to be thrown away, essentially.

[22:00] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[22:01] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[22:01] Jesse McAnally: So he could just take he could take whatever song he wanted from that and put it into this.

[22:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[22:06] Jesse McAnally: And the plot of Marry Me a Little is basically two people in separate New York apartments, um, knowing each other's existence and building up the courage to talk to one another through songs.

[22:16] Andrew DeWolf: And would include things that I don't even know why people would consider it cut.

[22:21] Jesse McAnally: Like, you know, um, if you can find me, I'm here from Evening Primrose.

[22:25] Andrew DeWolf: Did he throw that one out the window?

[22:27] Jesse McAnally: And Rainbows from an aborted film version of Into the Woods.

[22:32] Andrew DeWolf: Wait, from Evening Primrose isn't that in Evening Primrose?

[22:35] Jesse McAnally: Yes, it is.

[22:36] Andrew DeWolf: So that's not even cut.

[22:38] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[22:38] Andrew DeWolf: No.

[22:38] Jesse McAnally: That's just a that's just a song that he's.

[22:40] Andrew DeWolf: Some of these songs are cut and some of these songs aren't cut.

[22:42] Jesse McAnally: Like, that's what confuses me.

[22:44] Andrew DeWolf: Well, and then I I guess then again, any any song from Saturday night is now actually.

[22:49] Jesse McAnally: I guess that's just a cut song in his brain.

[22:50] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[22:52] Jesse McAnally: So this was just kind of something I don't even know how much he had involved.

[22:57] Andrew DeWolf: I think this was like directors pulling it together, like, you know, we could tell a story with this, and he's like, okay, that's neat. Do it.

[23:04] Jesse McAnally: I like the albums. I think it's a smart idea.

[23:07] Andrew DeWolf: But what what's the point?

[23:11] Jesse McAnally: See, this is where I'm gonna sound really anti-theater, where it's like you can't just hobble together a bunch of trashed ideas and songs and call it a show, guys.

[23:23] Andrew DeWolf: Well, it's yeah, they they don't calling it a uh a musical or anything like that is definitely disingenuous.

[23:31] Jesse McAnally: But people do put it on the show.

[23:34] Andrew DeWolf: Quite a bit.

[23:35] Jesse McAnally: Like they put it on, throw together the narrative, have stage narrative.

[23:39] Andrew DeWolf: Like during uh COVID, there was uh a stage version of this that people paid money to see.

[23:46] Jesse McAnally: If you're expecting like a real musical, I could see that being a little shady, but uh it might maybe as like a community theater thing, it might be the cheapest Sondheim to get, right?

[23:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but the thing is I think it's a fantastic album.

[23:59] Jesse McAnally: I listen to the Jason Tam album a lot.

[24:03] Andrew DeWolf: Um specifically, it's a good way to hear songs that I do love, like Happily Ever After, the the alternate version of being alive, I think is a great number and really really works.

[24:14] Liz Esten: Lonely but fly.

[24:17] Andrew DeWolf: Why not fly with no one to hold you too close? No one to hurt you too deep. No one to love you too hard. Happily ever after. No one you have to know well. No one you have to show how. No one you have to hold on. Oh no, the things you never know.

[24:45] Jesse McAnally: That's happily ever after.

[24:48] Andrew DeWolf: Ever, ever, ever after.

[24:51] Jesse McAnally: For now.

[24:57] Andrew DeWolf: Ever, ever, ever after.

[25:00] Jesse McAnally: Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever after.

[25:05] Andrew DeWolf: Ever, ever, ever after.

[25:11] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, exactly. Um, but calling it its own musical is wild, which is why, like, if we did do an episode on Marry Me a Little, what would it be?

[25:22] Andrew DeWolf: Well, we could edit together clips of our episodes that I cut previously and just put them all together.

[25:32] Jesse McAnally: What okay, uh, Marry Me a Little. You know, Andrew, there are full episodes of Musicals with Cheese that never made it public because we just knew we had to do better. Like, we have an alternate Godspell episode, we have an alternate Into the Woods episode. There are alternate episodes of Musicals with Cheese that we could release.

[25:51] Andrew DeWolf: They're all much worse than the ones that we actually released.

[25:55] Jesse McAnally: See, I can't even say that for these, because I think these are great songs still.

[26:01] Andrew DeWolf: Well, you could also do the cut bits from our episodes that would get us cancelled.

[26:05] Jesse McAnally: 10 out of 10. Great idea, Andrew.

[26:07] Andrew DeWolf: Ever ever everything great.

[26:09] Jesse McAnally: So, Saturday night.

[26:10] Andrew DeWolf: Um did get good reviews.

[26:13] Jesse McAnally: Uh, I do want to read a little bit of Peter Mark's review um from June of 1999.

[26:21] Andrew DeWolf: His his time Oh yeah, previews!

[26:24] Jesse McAnally: We're we're we there's only so many times we can do that.

[26:26] Andrew DeWolf: It's time for previews, kids.

[26:28] Jesse McAnally: It's time for previews.

[26:30] Andrew DeWolf: It's time for previews.

[26:35] Jesse McAnally: So this theater review says early notes by young, still undiscovered Sondheim. For Sondheim groupies, the in place to be these days is the utilitarian theater on a campus of a little known college for a nondescript Chicago neighborhood. That is where Saturday night, a 45-year-old musical with a book by an author of Casablanca and a thoroughly enchanting score by a young man who is yet to make his mark on musical theater is having an understated and long-overdue American debut. If for no other reason than the representative of 25-year-old Stephen Sondheim's's first dab at full-blown commercial musical, Saturday night would be worth the trip to the Truman College and this production by Pegasus players, the tiny Chicago troop in which Mr. Sondheim entrusted the material and for which he has written two new songs.

Blessedly, though, the show is no mere peek at messy fraying pages that Mr. Sondheim discarded. Saturday night is a musical comedy beguiling innocence that hints at a composer's promise in every downy smooth and stylish number.

[27:38] Andrew DeWolf: Like they are being ultra generous to this college production, basically.

[27:43] Andrew DeWolf: An evening with Sondheim at the Brooklyn Knights in Chicago leaves one issue unresolved.

[27:48] Jesse McAnally: Why Saturday Night is not yet being produced in the city that inspired it.

[27:53] Andrew DeWolf: It later would be, but I really think they're overstating this show's importance. It feels like they're giving it more attention than it really deserves just because it's Sondheim, but I won't deny that it is interesting because it's Sondheim.

[28:11] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[28:12] Andrew DeWolf: Like, if this was just Saturday Night by Joe Smith, and this was his show that he wrote, and it was exactly the same, we'd probably be like, you know, it was pretty good. And probably never speak of it ever again.

[28:27] Jesse McAnally: But because it's Sondheim.

[28:30] Andrew DeWolf: But you do bring all that stuff in with you, and like it or not, this has my favorite one of my favorite Sondheim ballads of all time, so that in and of itself makes it worth listening to.

[28:42] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, and no, I mean the songs are for the most part pretty well written.

[28:46] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[28:47] Jesse McAnally: Um, alright, how about we go into a mid-show and then talk about those songs?

[28:51] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, sounds good to me.

[28:53] Jesse McAnally: You sure you don't want to like invest in stock first or something though?

[28:56] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I also have my cousin's car. Can you sell it for me? We gotta buy a stock.

[29:01] Jesse McAnally: Only if we fall in love immediately.

[29:03] Andrew DeWolf: Oh god, no.

[29:05] Jesse McAnally: Alright, Mitchell!

[29:14] Liz Esten: Hey guys, sorry to interrupt you in the middle of the show, but we've got a show to you. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon, and at Patreon you get cool things like our Discord access where we share a lot of bootlegs.

[29:25] Liz Esten: We will also get like some really, really neat access to our commentaries, video episodes, uncut episodes, and things no one's ever seen. Alternate episodes, as we mentioned in the podcast, where they are only in existence there. Our discard pile.

[29:42] Liz Esten: Um, but Andrew, who's currently supporting us over on Patreon?

[29:45] Andrew DeWolf: Oh man. We have a shit ton of people over on Patreon, and I'm gonna read them all off.

[29:52] Andrew DeWolf: Our current patrons are Clippity Calapity, Clippity clap, Danielle Rennox, Just the Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Monica Thoreau, Brent Black, with Daniel Cumbe, Mary Lou Choquette, John Van Alz, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Kyle Summers, Janay C, Scoot in the Technical Dreamcoat, nothing is certain except Beth and Taxes, John Van Alz, Thesbian, Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Chris Marcote, Kishi Marie Anastasio, Trevi Joseph, RJ Noriga, Julie McLannan, Joe, Bjorn Herman's, Toriana Frazier, Sammy the Adequate Amount Jacobson, Kaylee Blazier, Villainous Miss, Sophina Ali, the Omega Geek, Paige Pearson, Matty Wargle, Eliza Erdman, Anna Loscatova, Sarah Den Blaker, Evan Balls, Acary Torres, Rora Morasso, Mara, Lisa L, Possess Washing Machine, Nick Roten, Puffy Boy, Sidney Hicks, Annabelle, Billy Clifton, Goldplated Kikimora, Arya Artie, Emma, Caribalda, JRL Studios, Katherine Shawcross, Z Botello, Alexandra Dom, and Gwen Bowman.

[30:59] Andrew DeWolf: They give us some moolah that we can invest in the stock market and hopefully get a profit on.

[31:05] Jesse McAnally: Jake.

[31:06] Andrew DeWolf: It's going up, baby.

[31:07] Jesse McAnally: It's going up.

[31:08] Andrew DeWolf: Everything's going up.

[31:10] Jesse McAnally: It's gonna be fine.

[31:10] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, is this musical the Bitcoin Bros OG?

[31:13] Jesse McAnally: It kinda, there is actually quite a few numbers about that.

[31:18] Andrew DeWolf: We could talk about that more than a little bit.

[31:19] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, we'll get to that to the song.

[31:21] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, sorry, that just hit me right then. Like Bitcoin.

[31:30] Jesse McAnally: Um, let's talk about the opening number Saturday Night.

[31:37] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, easy, will you?

[31:38] Jesse McAnally: She's coming to the phone.

[31:40] Andrew DeWolf: Hello, Marie.

[31:41] Jesse McAnally: I don't know if you remember me, but we met last week.

[31:43] Andrew DeWolf: If she remembers him, we're sung.

[31:56] Jesse McAnally: He's gonna get the axe from her.

[31:58] Andrew DeWolf: What would you say to seeing a pitch?

[32:04] Jesse McAnally: How does a combination of Johnny Mac Brown and Bessine love hitch up?

[32:10] Andrew DeWolf: Right between the eyes.

[32:12] Jesse McAnally: Well, she said, I have one hell of a nerve calling her at seven o'clock on Saturday night.

[32:17] Andrew DeWolf: She said, naturally, she already has a date.

[32:23] Jesse McAnally: The moon's like a million watts electric light.

[32:27] Andrew DeWolf: It shines up the city as it climbs.

[32:32] Jesse McAnally: And I gotta spend another Saturday night at home with the Sunday Times.

[32:42] Andrew DeWolf: I love this.

[32:44] Jesse McAnally: Um, and I really like that ragtime bump bump bump bum bump bum bum bum bum. Like I love it. I think it sounds great. And it's like such it evokes the time of the 20s so beautifully. Um, and it kind of sets the tone pretty well. What did you guys think?

[33:02] Andrew DeWolf: The only thing that I don't really love is I guess listening to it. It's very hard to distinguish characters.

[33:06] Jesse McAnally: Because they're all white boys singing about they all have a similar sort of range to them, at least from my ear.

[33:16] Andrew DeWolf: Um, and it's hard to even tell how many characters there are, like, just from the singing, so obviously a staged version would probably have a different feel.

[33:25] Jesse McAnally: Uh, we did not watch a version of this show, sadly.

[33:30] Andrew DeWolf: Uh, because it's kind of hard to find, I would assume.

[33:34] Jesse McAnally: Um, so we listened to two different versions of it, and really in both versions for me, it was kind of tough to tell characters apart just through the songs.

[33:42] Andrew DeWolf: Thankfully, I was following along with Sondheim and his notes, and they give it like a little description at the start of everyone. One, like, here's what's going on in this song, and here's Sondheim's response to this song, which is very good in contextualizing, and I still struggled with it.

[33:57] Jesse McAnally: Um also this plot is not very plot-y, so this musical isn't helped by the numbers.

[34:06] Andrew DeWolf: Also, a lot of the characters like just aren't really involved in the plot as heavily as like they probably should be. Like Artie and Dino and Ted, and I could not tell you who they are.

[34:17] Jesse McAnally: Well, I think that's because Sondheim was trying something that I don't think worked.

[34:23] Andrew DeWolf: So his big thing was like, I was gonna make the first Broadway show without an ensemble where every character was named.

[34:30] Jesse McAnally: Um, but in doing that, it kind of makes them all pointless.

[34:35] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it makes it less effective.

[34:37] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, that's it. That feels like I'm breaking the rules for no reason type thing that like a lot of newcomers to an art form will try.

[34:46] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I see a rule, I'm just going to break it.

[34:49] Jesse McAnally: And it's just like, well, well, I want a film where every 180 degree rule is broken.

[34:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I was gonna say, it's like breaking the 180 degree rule the first time.

[34:58] Jesse McAnally: Like, I'm so rebellious, and like everyone breaks the 180 degree rule sometimes.

[35:01] Andrew DeWolf: Like, it's just the thing.

[35:03] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but you gotta know when to do it.

[35:05] Andrew DeWolf: And this is not when to do it because then it just becomes nonsense, gibberish.

[35:10] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, and I think pieces with musicals with large number of characters I'm pretty openly critical of.

[35:19] Andrew DeWolf: Um because it's fucking hard to tell characters apart, you know?

[35:23] Jesse McAnally: It just is.

[35:24] Andrew DeWolf: Like you have a bunch of dudes up on a stage and sometimes it's hard to tell who's who.

[35:31] Jesse McAnally: We're assuming they're all white.

[35:33] Andrew DeWolf: So especially when they're all white men.

[35:35] Jesse McAnally: I was talking to someone recently about divers. I was talking to Miranda yesterday. She brought up the Acolyte and she jokingly was like why what do you feel about the Acolyte is it whoa garbage and I'm like I'm so grateful for diversity in most media now.

[35:53] Andrew DeWolf: It is one of the best things because I'm watching films from like the mid-20th century and I'm getting all these motherfuckers confused with each other.

[36:01] Jesse McAnally: All these white boys look the same.

[36:03] Andrew DeWolf: Dude early like I don't even know how you watched movies in the 50s or the 40s or whatever everyone is just a white dude with a suit.

[36:11] Jesse McAnally: Yeah and they're all named John and it's like Who the fuck is who with all the love in the world to the people that love Mad Men I'm getting all these motherfuckers confused with each other.

[36:21] Andrew DeWolf: Like I know who Jon Hamm is but then you lose me.

[36:24] Jesse McAnally: All these other honkies are just gonna blend together like you gotta give them something.

[36:31] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah just a like a distinct like pin or something that they wear I guess like an outfit they like to wear an accessory they're always have on one of them wears one of them has pinstripes or something like that.

[36:45] Jesse McAnally: Like give me something like if they are not a movie star, they're nobody to me.

[36:52] Andrew DeWolf: Um, so these people that are like diversity.

[36:56] Jesse McAnally: I'm like, thank you, thank you, diversity.

[36:58] Andrew DeWolf: I know this person is different from this person.

[37:01] Jesse McAnally: I am I welcome it so much, please.

[37:04] Andrew DeWolf: I'm also very thankful that Joe made people realize that Manny Jacinto is hot because as a Good Place fan, I've known that shit for years.

[37:10] Jesse McAnally: So, like, catch up.

[37:12] Andrew DeWolf: I love The Good Place.

[37:16] Jesse McAnally: But for purely practical reasons.

[37:20] Andrew DeWolf: Not for representation, but so he can tell the white boys apart.

[37:24] Jesse McAnally: I mean, there's obvious reasons that don't need to be elaborated on for why diversity is good, but it's a practical reason.

[37:32] Andrew DeWolf: These fucking racists aren't seeing the value.

[37:36] Jesse McAnally: Hear me out. Look how different these characters look.

[37:39] Andrew DeWolf: Now I can tell.

[37:40] Jesse McAnally: Yay!

[37:44] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[37:44] Jesse McAnally: What is the difference between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon?

[37:48] Andrew DeWolf: Really?

[37:48] Jesse McAnally: Hair.

[37:49] Andrew DeWolf: The hair is different.

[37:51] Jesse McAnally: It is the hair.

[37:52] Andrew DeWolf: That's how you identify them.

[37:53] Jesse McAnally: That's it.

[37:54] Andrew DeWolf: One of them has a rat tail, one of them has long flowing hair.

[37:58] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[37:58] Andrew DeWolf: Although if they were both wearing suits, and I tried.

[38:03] Jesse McAnally: They're both like weirdly British, despite neither of them being British in real life.

[38:03] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, well, Ewan McGregor's Scottish and his accent's too thick, so it's like, oh, just be British.

[38:13] Jesse McAnally: And fucking Liam Neeson's Irish.

[38:16] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but be British.

[38:17] Jesse McAnally: Can we talk about "Love is a Bond"?

[38:25] Andrew DeWolf: I'm smart as a fox with bonds and with stocks.

[38:29] Jesse McAnally: I've cornered wheat, alfalfa and rye, but now I'm tired of that human crime.

[38:37] Andrew DeWolf: Consolidated love is all I buy.

[38:42] Jesse McAnally: Welcome to the test, I like to invest, but I won't be a great financier.

[38:50] Andrew DeWolf: Love's the stock I like.

[38:52] Jesse McAnally: It's free and clear.

[38:54] Andrew DeWolf: And it'll be blue chip if you chip in with me, my dear.

[39:00] Jesse McAnally: Love's a bond that's pure.

[39:04] Andrew DeWolf: Its dividends are sure.

[39:08] Jesse McAnally: This bond if you get it stable, and get it will grow if you let it mature.

[39:17] Andrew DeWolf: And darling have you heard the market spiraling like a bird?

[39:25] Jesse McAnally: As A T and T will go up and up, we will.

[39:37] Andrew DeWolf: I think this song is interesting because it is the beginning of realizing that this entire show is about stock bros.

[39:46] Jesse McAnally: For some reason, there's an entire song about how stocks and bonds are what love is or something.

[39:53] Andrew DeWolf: It's like a love metaphor using the stock market.

[39:56] Jesse McAnally: Can I read you the lyrics?

[39:57] Andrew DeWolf: This song is so short.

[39:59] Jesse McAnally: Meh.

[39:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, sure.

[40:00] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, I'm just gonna read it as beat poetry, real quick.

[40:05] Andrew DeWolf: I'm sure this is Sondheim intended.

[40:07] Jesse McAnally: Let me get the bongos.

[40:08] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah, put the bongos in the back.

[40:10] Jesse McAnally: Love's a bond that's pure.

[40:12] Andrew DeWolf: Its dividends are sure.

[40:14] Jesse McAnally: This bond, if you get it, is stable, and yet it will grow if you let it mature.

[40:21] Andrew DeWolf: And darling, have you heard the markets?

[40:24] Jesse McAnally: Spiraling, spiraling like a bird.

[40:26] Andrew DeWolf: As ATT will go up and up.

[40:29] Jesse McAnally: We will.

[40:30] Andrew DeWolf: For this new love of ours is guilt edge preferred.

[40:36] Jesse McAnally: Deb my snapping, Andrew.

[40:37] Andrew DeWolf: I can't get my fingers.

[40:39] Jesse McAnally: I do want to say this is the amateurish kind of thing that Sondheim talks about, where he like has a stanza that is like half a phrase instead of completing the phrase in the you know like the spawn if you get it is stable and yet it will grow.

[40:57] Andrew DeWolf: Instead of yet it will grow, it's yet it will grow.

[41:00] Jesse McAnally: Where I think it works very poorly there, but in a song like "Sorry Guys," um, "So Many People" it worked brilliantly, and this is like the one that became a hit.

[41:14] Andrew DeWolf: Um if you don't mind me seguing to that writing there on my segue.

[41:19] Jesse McAnally: So many people in the world don't know what they've missed.

[42:49] Jesse McAnally: This song is beautiful.

[42:51] Andrew DeWolf: It is. It's been sung by everyone from Laura Benanti to Mandy Patinkin, and every time it hits me right in the feels.

[42:58] Liz Esten: I do not like it in the context of this musical where a man is scamming a woman.

[43:03] Jesse McAnally: But it's just about two people discovering they love each other. It's great. Specifically, it's about someone that's like, I thought I was materialistic, but goddamn it, I fell in love with this poor person anyway.

[43:15] Andrew DeWolf: That really reads to me. And then in the context of this show, it is about materialistic things in the end.

[43:24] Liz Esten: Yeah, the context here does sort of remove any actual emotional value that this song has, but you know.

[43:32] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's like you just found out your boyfriend just like fucked you over completely. It's like, oh, I love him anyway. It's like, okay, girl, you deserve better. I really love this song, but man, I don't know if it lost a point or two, knowing the context of the story, but man, it's still removed from the context, this song is beautiful. But let's talk about the not ending a phrase properly.

[44:00] Andrew DeWolf: Which is what Sondheim hates, which is, "I said the man for me should have a castle. A man of means he'd be a man of fame. But then I met a man who had an Annie without a penny to his name," where they all just kind of feel like half-thoughts.

[44:22] Liz Esten: So why do you think it works here but doesn't work in Love's a Bond? Is it because Love's a Bond is just a terrible song about stocks, it's all stock puns?

[44:31] Jesse McAnally: I'm sorry, it's just it's all stock puns.

[44:33] Andrew DeWolf: I think because here it feels like someone that's discovering they're in love with someone, so they're kind of putting the pieces together, where there it reads as amateurish because all the punchlines hit at the wrong place.

[44:45] Liz Esten: Yeah.

[44:45] Jesse McAnally: Well, also if you get Audra McDonald to sing anything, it's gonna sound beautiful. Audra McDonald could like spit in my face and I'd thank her.

[44:54] Andrew DeWolf: You're not wrong.

[44:56] Liz Esten: And I would never sing Love's a Bond, though.

[44:58] Jesse McAnally: No, she wouldn't sing Love's a Bond.

[45:01] Andrew DeWolf: Is Love's a Bond the worst Sondheim song?

[45:01] Jesse McAnally: The worst Sondheim song is probably in the bottom of his waste bin, and we'll never see it.

[45:08] Liz Esten: Yeah, probably.

[45:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, the best part about Love's a Bond is Genius doesn't even know who sings it. Like they can't figure it out. It just says vocalist.

[45:17] Jesse McAnally: So Andrew, there are those famous Sondheim rankings that we look at. Like the one from the Fandamentals, the Mark Robson writes, the, you know, the Sondheim musicals ranked. Where do you think Saturday Night falls on them? I know we haven't touched your ranking yet.

[45:33] Andrew DeWolf: I'm gonna say it's probably in the bottom five or six, but it's not the bottom one.

[45:40] Liz Esten: I wanna say the middle.

[45:41] Jesse McAnally: Okay, okay. That's interesting. Saturday Night is almost always above Passion, and that pisses me off a lot more than it should.

[45:54] Andrew DeWolf: Wait, don't you like love Passion?

[45:56] Jesse McAnally: Passion is like top four for me.

[45:56] Andrew DeWolf: I was gonna say, I thought you really love Passion.

[46:01] Jesse McAnally: I love Passion so much, but like, okay. This one from Mark Robinson's rights. It is Road Show, Passion, The Frogs, then Saturday Night.

[46:14] Liz Esten: This is above The Frogs?

[46:16] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, apparently. And then for the Fandamentals, it is Passion as the last one, wrong, Bounce, then Saturday Night.

[46:27] Andrew DeWolf: Bounce, but not Road Show?

[46:28] Jesse McAnally: What is it uh Bounce and Road Show are the same show.

[46:31] Liz Esten: Oh, yeah, that's right.

[46:32] Jesse McAnally: It's only ever been known as Road Show, though, I'm pretty sure.

[46:35] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[46:35] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. And then we have Do I Hear a Waltz? Um, and this is from Ranker.com. Do I Hear a Waltz, Road Show, then Saturday Night, then The Frogs.

[46:45] Liz Esten: At least Ranker.

[46:48] Andrew DeWolf: You know.

[46:48] Liz Esten: The Frogs is so disrespected.

[46:50] Jesse McAnally: It's unreal.

[46:51] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like The Frogs should be higher, and I haven't even seen The Frogs.

[46:54] Jesse McAnally: Passion definitely can does belong in near the bottom.

[46:57] Liz Esten: You're fucking wrong.

[46:59] Andrew DeWolf: And you're stupid too.

[47:02] Jesse McAnally: This is unrelated. I will send you a copy of The Frogs.

[47:06] Andrew DeWolf: Please do. I need to watch. Um, but Passion is top four for me.

[47:11] Jesse McAnally: Okay. Back to Here We Are. It is so fascinating to me. Because Passion is really the last Broadway show Sondheim ever did. That premiered on Broadway. And Here We Are feels so much like Passion musically. I hear pieces that I'm like, he just stole that from Passion. And I don't get that much. So he's referencing a lot of pe it is Merrily and Passion, and that is Here We Are.

[47:42] Andrew DeWolf: So he's took two of his shows that didn't do well and combined them.

[47:45] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[47:46] Liz Esten: Amazing.

[47:47] Jesse McAnally: What a genius move. But fascinatingly, I think for you two specifically, you will probably like Here We Are better than either of those shows.

[47:58] Andrew DeWolf: I have not seen either, so I will not have an opinion.

[48:02] Jesse McAnally: But you maybe should watch Passion before that.

[48:04] Liz Esten: Maybe you should send me a bunch of Sondheim blanks for record this episode.

[48:07] Andrew DeWolf: I will. I did not dislike Merrily. You did, but I do remember not liking Passion that much.

[48:13] Jesse McAnally: I think the ideas in Here We Are are so profound and so weird that you will be like, okay, no matter what, I'm into this. Musically, I think you'll be like, why is he doing this?

[48:26] Andrew DeWolf: Alright. We're gonna have to cover. I mean, we're covering it like covering it next two weeks, I think.

[48:30] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, then next recording session. I do want to talk a little bit about What More Do I Need, which I also think is a really good song. It is the penultimate number, like it's I would call it the 11 o'clock number of this show. Which I think is neat. What did you guys think of it? Did it latch on to you?

[48:33] ♪ Musical number: "What More Do I Need?" ♪

[50:23] Andrew DeWolf: I think it would have latched on to me more if I understood where we were in the story necessarily, like what it meant.

[50:32] Liz Esten: Yeah.

[50:33] Andrew DeWolf: Like to the people singing it. But I do remember liking this song.

[50:38] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[50:39] Liz Esten: Yeah. It is kind of the final number, because really, after this, it's just It's Wonderful Day again.

[50:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I don't think I disliked it. I don't really think I formed a very strong opinion about it, sadly, so I don't have much to say.

[50:55] Jesse McAnally: It weirdly feels like a payoff to a show we didn't see.

[51:00] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[51:02] Jesse McAnally: That's some fun way to put it, I suppose. Which is also how I feel about So Many People in the World, which is this like let me read the opening lines. "Once I hated the city, now it can't get me down. Slushy, humid, and gritty. What a pretty town." If it's a love letter to New York, and I don't feel like that's what this show is.

[51:23] Liz Esten: No, no, it's a love letter to the stock market.

[51:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's Monday baby. Make it money the dirty way.

[51:36] Jesse McAnally: No, I mean, yeah, I think he just wanted a way to close it out.

[51:39] Liz Esten: Yeah.

[51:40] Andrew DeWolf: Something something. This is a very, it's a very kind of it's a story where not much happens.

[51:46] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, it's like it's like he's like, I think he fucks up, and then it's like, oh, we'll just live in Brooklyn, we'll figure it out. It's like, okay.

[51:54] Liz Esten: It does bring up one of the last sins Sondheim makes of his own work as a storytelling sin. It is the use of the word aeroplane in the song.

[52:09] Andrew DeWolf: He just doesn't like it.

[52:12] Jesse McAnally: Well, let me tell you his exact quote. "One last sin. It's a small sin, it's small and infrequent, but a sin nonetheless. Adding needed syllables as in aeroplane, I justified to myself that this is the way the word was still being spelled in the 20s. Even if it weren't such a flimsy excuse, each syllable has an equal musical value, so that we hear the long O instead of the short one, aeroplane instead of airplane, as it's pronounced in real life."

[52:43] Liz Esten: He just feels like he was using it as a crutch. You know?

[52:45] Andrew DeWolf: He's right. I'm gonna go out here. I'm actually gonna go out and say on this nitpick of his own work, he's actually completely correct. Like this is a that is a terrible justification.

[52:58] Jesse McAnally: Uh it's yeah.

[53:01] Liz Esten: It does remember that one scene of the Documentary Now, like parody of the Company doc where he's like the John Mulaney fake John Mulaney scene, Dani was like telling Renée Elise Goldsberry how to pronounce a word with more syllables.

[53:14] Andrew DeWolf: You are saying ruined. It is ruined.

[53:18] Jesse McAnally: Yes, yes. You've been doing it the entire run, and it's made me angry. So don't do it again. Great episode. 10 out of 10, great episode. Anytime we're making fun of Sondheim, that show's great. Speaking of greatness, what is our overall thoughts on Saturday? Actually, that's a lie. Andrew, what is your overall thoughts on Saturday Night, your cheese rating, and where it ranks in your Sondheim ranking?

[53:42] Andrew DeWolf: Alright. So if you have never seen our show, which I mean, holy shit, we're like almost 300 episodes in. We're actually more than 300 episodes in, but we're just gonna be able to do that.

[53:49] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, wait, we did it.

[53:52] Andrew DeWolf: We're cheating! We cheated because I had to have surgery, and I didn't wanna have to rebrand during a surgical event. But our rating system is A through D. I don't do any S tier or F tier or anything like that. A is the best and D is the worst, and it's rated in with itself. So these are only rated against each other. We're not rating this against everything that exists or anything of that sort, or any sort of like objective rating or anything like that. This is purely rated against itself, and it's my own opinions. In A tier, we have Sweeney Todd, the Mama Rose musical, Into the Woods, and Oh my goodness.

[54:41] Jesse McAnally: A Little Night Music.

[54:42] Andrew DeWolf: Little Night Music, right? That one was good. In B, we have Follies, Sunday in the Park with George, The Frogs, Merrily We Roll Along, West Side Story, Road Show, and Company.

[54:45] Jesse McAnally: I still think Road Show's too high, but whatever.

[55:01] Andrew DeWolf: I like Road Show. I don't know. I thought it was fun.

[55:03] Jesse McAnally: I kind of like Radio too, yeah.

[55:06] Andrew DeWolf: In C, we have Assassins, a Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum. Boy. This is Anyone Can Whistle, Pacific Overtures, Passion, and then in D, we have Evening Primrose and Do I Hear a Waltz.

[55:28] Andrew DeWolf: What a list. Like, truly, I feel like I've argued with you over this, but man. I can't believe that's it. I can't believe we're there. We are well, before I do anything here, I think we have to give overall thoughts on this and cheese rating for me.

[55:46] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. So you know, my overall thoughts is it doesn't feel like a Sondheim show. It doesn't feel like a this feels like a show that we would talk about, and then two weeks later I would completely forget about and we would never bring up ever again. Like that's your waltz. This is like that the type of show where it's just like, you know, it's nothing. It's like, okay, well, whatever. You know, we talked about it, and we, you know, it that's it. There's a few standout songs, and you can see the Sondheim like writing style and lyricism starting to form. But the man himself has a lot of criticisms of this piece, and I think a lot of them are valid. And there's too many fucking characters. I can't follow this shit. Like one main character, please. One main character, and then you that I'm sorry. But there's a Drew. It's the first musical without an ensemble. Hopefully the only one as well.

[56:56] Andrew DeWolf: Um that's not true. Come on. I know that's not true, but I'd love it if it was. I would really love if it was. Um like the last five years had two actors. Come on. When the movie had more than two actors. So we are gonna give this um it's it's like a it's it's a a Brooklyn pizza, a slice of cheese pizza, but not from one of the places that are like the best pizza. It's from a uh like a Papa John's that happens to be in Brooklyn.

[57:30] Jesse McAnally: Okay. Um I'm gonna say I'm gonna argue. I'm gonna push back on this.

[57:35] Andrew DeWolf: You what you like Papa John's too much?

[57:38] Jesse McAnally: No. Papa John's is too normal and marketable. And I don't think this is either of those things. I think you should be like a Brooklyn like hole-in-the-wall pizza joint, but an option. But not a good one. I think it should be one that like aped off of everyone else and are doing like the B minus version of what their like great-grandfather saw going on.

[58:02] Andrew DeWolf: Okay, so it's an inherit it's an inherit Brooklyn pizza shop that is run carelessly, hopefully just to keep the fail son profitable.

[58:12] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Alright. Okay, I mean I can yeah, you know, I can see where you're going with that. That's fine. Um and then as far as where this goes. There's two spots that can go. It's either the bottom of C or the top of D. And I don't know which one you would agree with. They're both the same, really. It's kind of the same. There's a distinction in, you know, there's a difference between being the bottom of C tier.

[58:45] Andrew DeWolf: I think you should even out. Honestly. We shan't do this just for aesthetic reasons. If it doesn't belong in D, it doesn't belong in D. The song, the highs are really high. And there is no low that gets as low as either either evening primrose or waltz.

[59:04] Jesse McAnally: I agree. And for that reason, I was ad I was gonna advocate for top of C. But not top of C, bottom of C.

[59:10] Andrew DeWolf: Bottom of C works for me. I didn't mean for that to rhyme. Alright. Um, alright. Liz, what is your overall thoughts on your cheese rating?

[59:19] Liz Esten: Uh, it's fine. Um it's like it's honestly a lot of this went through one ear out the other. Uh I listened to this over a couple days just due to like my work schedule, so it's like a lot of it I didn't observe fully, but I agree with Andrew. Too many goddamn characters, and I can't figure out what's going on. And the songs are they're fine. It's like nothing's hugely stands out. I like I think so many people is a good song. I agree with you on that, Jess. But I don't know. It's like the interesting be interesting beginnings of a man, but he's got some shit to work out. Which he did successfully, but it's it's interesting to see where he started, I will say. So like I would check it out just to kind of see where it started from. I don't know how to review this without saying it's fine and then moving on. So I say, um, yeah, just give the cheese rating because I'm gonna ape off of what you're saying along.

[1:00:11] Andrew DeWolf: Sounds good. Uh I'm gonna give this a bacon, egg, and cheese from a mediocre bodega in Brooklyn. A bodega that's like, okay, the cheese is kind of solid and the egg is overcooked, but like it's decent.

[1:00:22] Jesse McAnally: That's fair enough. Um I am hmm. So I think this is a nice little fossil of what could have been. What could have been a start to a career and what could have been a much more melodic, much more pretty, much less because this is a wholly different world than West Side Story, and a wholly different world than Forum, which was his first music and lyrics job. And I think that this is an alternate universe on time, where he had to fight less to get out there and was just kind of doing things from a childhood age. Um, which he was, but in a different way. I think you should really only check this out as an artifact and not as a piece. And I think that's kind of how Sondheim. Like, it's a neat, interesting piece of my lore, but don't think of it as my most proud work.

But the songs that work really work for me. Really work. Removed from this. Um, and as all that, I am giving this milk that has that's on the pot, but was not stirred enough to become cheese, and just kind of left there. It's not even cheese yet. It's not fully formed. It is half formed, a quasimodo, you might say. Um, and yeah, that's our penultimate Sondheim episode. We got one episode left before our big finale guys, our here we are finale.

[1:01:49] Andrew DeWolf: Can I argue with you for one second?

[1:01:52] Jesse McAnally: Alright.

[1:01:53] Andrew DeWolf: I want to argue about alternate universe, Sondheim where this got released. I'm gonna I'm gonna put out my theory that it wouldn't have changed much. I am I think I think where Sondheim became Sondheim was nothing in his very early career. What really changed it was that collaboration that he did with Rogers from Rogers and Hammerstein, and that was the that's the turning point. That's what matters. Now why? Because I think that's where he decided that he was not going to be ever allow himself to not do the music and the lyrics ever again. And I think that that collaboration, that mess was I think what he was reacting to with all of his future work, I think.

[1:02:42] Jesse McAnally: I can agree to a certain point. I I I can see that that's definitely something he was trying, but he was doing so much good work before that. Remember, um, do you know how Hero Waltz was 1965 and West Side Story is 1957. West Side Story, Mama Rose, Funny Thing Happened in the Way to the Forum. Anything anyone can whistle all predate Do I Hear a Waltz. But his the peak of his career was after that, though.

[1:03:09] Andrew DeWolf: Yes. Yes.

[1:03:09] Jesse McAnally: Do I Hear a Waltz? He immediately goes into Company, his biggest hit, then Follies, a flop, Little Night Music, his biggest hit, The Frogs, never released. Pacific Overtures, Audacious, Sweeney Todd, Merrily, and then that is the end of his peak. And then he comes back a bit many years later, Sunday in the Park with George, Into the Woods, Assassins and Passion, his second peak, in my opinion.

[1:03:32] Andrew DeWolf: His new collaborators.

[1:03:35] Jesse McAnally: I think I would contend that maybe his very early career would change if this had actually happened. But that collaboration, I think would happen either way because his mentor was Hammerstein.

[1:03:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[1:03:48] Jesse McAnally: Or Hammerstein. I don't know how it's actually pronounced. It's been pronounced both ways by the man himself. So it's equally confusing.

[1:03:56] Andrew DeWolf: So I think that that collaboration would have happened either way, and his peak would have happened the same either way.

[1:04:02] Jesse McAnally: Yes, yes. I can see that argument, but truly, I don't believe Sondheim was born until Anyone Can Whistle flopped. I think that flop, despite that show having some incredible numbers and being pretty good, like if you remember that one. Um is like the most Sondheim Sondheim song ever, and that's the first time you get a taste of what he really can do. And he never let that go after that. And you don't see any of that in this one or Forum, or really even West Side Story, Mama Rose.

[1:04:40] Andrew DeWolf: So I think that I I think it's right there, and that failure, and then he kind of licks his wounds and does Do I Hear a Waltz? And that fails even worse.

[1:04:51] Jesse McAnally: Hmm. I guess w I'd love to hear other people's theories about alternate universes. Tell us your theories about alternate timeline Sondheim. Does he have a sex dungeon in that one?

[1:05:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Also, what happens if The Frogs gets released?

[1:05:06] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. You know what? We should make a film version of The Frogs. That should just be something we do.

[1:05:13] Andrew DeWolf: I agree. We this is something that is made for us. I think Andrew should be in it. He should be Dionysus.

[1:05:18] Jesse McAnally: I I can be Dionysus. Are you kidding me? I can sing.

[1:05:22] Andrew DeWolf: He can.

[1:05:24] Jesse McAnally: A little bit.

[1:05:25] Andrew DeWolf: He can actually sing.

[1:05:27] Jesse McAnally: And I'd be the one that watches in the movie theater and say, you know what? Better than Into the Woods.

[1:05:34] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[1:05:36] Jesse McAnally: That would be in the that would be in the the movie. This is better than Into the Woods. It happens like every other scene.

[1:05:46] Andrew DeWolf: George Bernard Shaw says that.

[1:05:48] Jesse McAnally: Um when he shows up. You know what? This is better than Into the Woods. And he looks at the audience. God, I love The Frogs. Someone send me The Frogs. I feel so deprived. So much potential there. The Frogs is uh The Frogs is another one. Here We Are is a lot like. The Frogs is a secret gem. It's it's sometimes secret masterpiece.

[1:06:14] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. All I'm learning is I have a ton of fucking homework to do before we watch Here We Are because I enjoyed this podcast so late.

[1:06:22] Jesse McAnally: So You're welcome. But The Frogs The Frogs is the only one that kind of addresses the audience.

[1:06:32] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[1:06:33] Jesse McAnally: You know the end song of The Frogs, Andrew. Do you remember the name of it?

[1:06:37] Andrew DeWolf: You're asking me a song name? No, I don't remember the name.

[1:06:39] Jesse McAnally: The last song in The Frogs is called It's Only a Play.

[1:06:44] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[1:06:45] Jesse McAnally: And they say those words specifically in Here We Are and referring to the play you're watching. There is so there is a lot of meta textual shit going on in Here We Are. That I'm like, I I I I have had a bubble inside myself where there's so much shit to talk about. And all the people I've seen it, like Emily and Brent, when I bring it up to them, they're like, it's just weird. I don't I don't know how I feel about it. And I'm like, I think it's his Magnum opus.

[1:07:21] Andrew DeWolf: I wonder what they would say if you asked them about The Frogs.

[1:07:24] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Emily hates The Frogs. Brent kinda is like, uh whatever.

[1:07:30] Andrew DeWolf: See? I feel like liking The Frogs means something about you.

[1:07:34] Jesse McAnally: It says something.

[1:07:35] Andrew DeWolf: Means he has good taste. Liz, did you listen to our episode on The Frogs read with us yet?

[1:07:41] Liz Esten: I was not with you and I did not listen to it. But I'm I was involved. I was doing video stuff for you guys.

[1:07:46] Jesse McAnally: Yes. Yeah. Meryl Streep was in the original production of The Frogs when it was in the swimming pool or Harvard University. Like it was just like a school production, and she was a recording of it on YouTube. It sounds terrible.

[1:07:58] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, I gotta watch this.

[1:08:00] Jesse McAnally: Fuck. You can't. There's no you don't. No, there's no fixing that audio.

[1:08:05] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, whatever.

[1:08:07] Jesse McAnally: Okay. Okay, I'll trust. Um all right. Um, did I give a cheese rating yet? Yeah, I did. Um, thank you guys for listening. Please follow us on iTunes and Spotify at Musicals with Cheese. We're on Twitter at Cheesy Musicals, Patreon Musical Series, so use Instagram, Musicals and Cheese, YouTube page Musicals with Cheese, Patreon OnlyPodcast, Patreon with Cheese. Email us at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com. Our keeper of the cheese is Juliet Antonio. This show is edited by Andrew DeWolf, and he's doing a fantabulous job. A plus, buddy. Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off for not loving Saturday Night as much.

[1:08:49] Jesse McAnally: Um, you know what? We didn't do the obvious joke.

[1:08:52] Andrew DeWolf: But what's that?

[1:08:53] Jesse McAnally: You know, this is a live show, so technically it was Saturday Night Live. It's Saturday night with Andrew DeWolf, who is Arrested, and here's your host, Chevy Cheese!

[1:08:58] Andrew DeWolf: Chevy Cheese.