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[1:39] Jess McInly: Alright, let's get on to the real show.

[1:44] Jess McInly: Hello, I'm Jess McInly.

[1:46] Jess McInly: And welcome to Musicals with Cheese, a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater.

[1:51] Jess McInly: And we have a super special guest, another musical theater creator on the internet.

[1:55] Jess McInly: It is Tommy of Musical Theatre Mash.

[1:58] Tommy Nolan: Hello.

[1:59] Tommy Nolan: You know, when they used to call kids super special in school, it meant they got to take classes in a different room with padded walls.

[2:06] Tommy Nolan: Which is really how I feel most of my life being super special in my own super special way.

[2:11] Tommy Nolan: You know who else felt pretty special?

[2:13] Jess McInly: Hmm.

[2:14] Tommy Nolan: George Surratt.

[2:15] Jess McInly: Who?

[2:15] Tommy Nolan: Because he was over the.

[2:16] Tommy Nolan: You know what, Jess?

[2:17] Tommy Nolan: Am I gonna Wait, wait, you ready?

[2:19] Tommy Nolan: Should we ride there on our segue?

[2:21] Tommy Nolan: Ah, you did it!

[2:22] Tommy Nolan: You did it!

[2:23] Tommy Nolan: It's like we're on that other podcast he did!

[2:25] Jess McInly: Shh, don't talk about it.

[2:26] Tommy Nolan: Uh, I don't get the joke, but I'm sure the audience is less than a lot of things.

[2:29] Tommy Nolan: They're laughing so hard.

[2:31] Jess McInly: Andrew, no one is happier that you're here than me.

[2:36] Jess McInly: It is Wednesday on the cast with the crew.

[2:40] Jess McInly: Let's go.

[2:43] Jess McInly: So, yes, pull up your paints, and today we're talking about Sunday in the Park with George.

[2:48] Tommy Nolan: They are worse things than staring at the water on a Sunday.

[2:54] Tommy Nolan: They're all worse things than staring at the water.

[2:57] Tommy Nolan: I should buzz it for like I should be attended by your lover in the middle of the summer on an day.

[3:05] Jess McInly: So Sunday in the Park with George is a musical with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim and a book by James Lapine.

[3:10] Jess McInly: It was inspired by the French painter George Surratt's painting, A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte.

[3:17] Jess McInly: The plot revolves around George, a fictionalized version of Surratt, who immerses himself deeply in painting his masterpiece, and his great-grandson, also named George—it's convenient, but whatever— a conflicted and cynical contemporary artist.

[3:30] Jess McInly: The Broadway production opened in 1984.

[3:32] Jess McInly: It also won the Pulitzer Prize for Drama, which never happens for musicals.

[3:37] Jess McInly: And it won a bunch of like Drama Desk Awards, but it didn't win the Tony.

[3:45] Jess McInly: And famously, um, uh, God, I can't even think of his name right now.

[3:50] Tommy Nolan: Jerry Herman?

[3:51] Jess McInly: I'm so—Jerry Herman said in his acceptance speech for La Cage aux Folles about his musical that it proves that the hummable song is still in style or something like that, and people took it as a huge slight to Sunday in the Park with George, which, frankly speaking, doesn't have a lot of hummable songs.

[4:09] Tommy Nolan: What are you talking about?

[4:10] Jess McInly: Not really, no.

[4:11] Tommy Nolan: Well, you know.

[4:13] Tommy Nolan: Sunday by the blue, purple, yellow, red colors.

[4:17] Jess McInly: And then what happens next?

[4:19] Tommy Nolan: He was like blue, blue, blue, blue, blue, blue, or something like that.

[4:21] Tommy Nolan: Red, red, red, red, red, red one, blue, black, blue, red, blue, blue, blue, my, my, yeah, yellow.

[4:26] Tommy Nolan: I can't do it like Mandy Patinkin.

[4:28] Jess McInly: Oddly, no one can do it.

[4:30] Tommy Nolan: No one can do it like Mandy Patinkin.

[4:31] Tommy Nolan: Can I tell you a little inside baseball joke that I have with my boyfriend?

[4:35] Tommy Nolan: Um, let's go.

[4:36] Tommy Nolan: One of his college friends was having a night that, you know, one prefers not to remember.

[4:42] Tommy Nolan: Um, and later on in that night, under the influence of some alcohol, was about falling asleep, but his friend woke up and looked at him and with no prompting said, "Oh, I miss Mandy Patinkin," and then fell asleep immediately.

[5:03] Tommy Nolan: And so whenever we talk about Mandy Patinkin, we look at each other and go, "Oh, I miss Mandy Patinkin."

[5:10] Jess McInly: I said that exactly when he pulled out of Great Comet.

[5:14] Tommy Nolan: Oh god, don't open those wounds with me, Jess.

[5:18] Tommy Nolan: Don't!

[5:18] Jess McInly: Why?

[5:19] Tommy Nolan: I just thought I'd bring that up.

[5:22] Tommy Nolan: Um, this was Sondheim's first show after the huge failure of Merrily We Roll Along and his big falling out with Hal Prince, and he's like, "I'm done, I'm done with musicals forever. I'm just gonna write books and draw maps and shit."

[5:33] Tommy Nolan: And then he met James Lapine, and he was looking at the painting A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte, and he's like, "Oh, they all got their own stories," and James Lapine's like, "Oh, we're missing the main character, who the painter."

[5:47] Tommy Nolan: And he's like, "That's when I got a musical."

[5:49] Tommy Nolan: A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte is a gigantic painting in the Art Institute of Chicago.

[5:58] Tommy Nolan: If you've ever seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off, um, it is also the painting that Cameron gets enthralled in in one of the sequences in that movie.

[6:07] Tommy Nolan: And in person, like, it is stunning in its size and detail.

[6:13] Tommy Nolan: Like, it is no wonder that this is one of the only paintings that's inspired a musical.

[6:19] Tommy Nolan: It is gorgeous.

[6:20] Tommy Nolan: Like, even when you get up close, you can see where each dot is specifically.

[6:24] Jess McInly: Yeah, I got to see it live, and I know you have too, because you used to live in Chicago.

[6:29] Tommy Nolan: Yes.

[6:29] Tommy Nolan: I've, uh, first time I saw the painting, I must have been, God, I was young, maybe seven or eight.

[6:34] Tommy Nolan: Um, and like you were like, "God, this is boring."

[6:37] Tommy Nolan: And then, like, actually, yes, God, this art museum is boring, and then you've like, it is weird, I think nowadays in contemporary society to call a painting stunning because we can reproduce whatever we want on the screens in front of us.

[6:50] Tommy Nolan: But seeing this painting in person is so much better than seeing any reproduction of it simply because of its size.

[6:57] Tommy Nolan: Like, it's huge.

[6:58] Tommy Nolan: There's a whole room like with a wall dedicated to it in the Art Institute in Chicago.

[7:03] Tommy Nolan: It is like a beautiful painting.

[7:07] Tommy Nolan: So I've just been thinking, if he's French and his name is George Surratt, shouldn't it be like George Soray?

[7:15] Tommy Nolan: Suratt, I think.

[7:17] Tommy Nolan: Like O sound.

[7:18] Tommy Nolan: I'm dying.

[7:19] Tommy Nolan: Um, but let me clarify what happened in real life compared to the musical.

[7:26] Tommy Nolan: It fictionalizes Surratt's life.

[7:29] Tommy Nolan: Um, in fact, none of his children survived beyond infancy, and he had no grandchildren.

[7:33] Tommy Nolan: Surratt's common-law wife was Madeline Noblock, who gave birth to his two sons one after his death.

[7:40] Tommy Nolan: Unlike Dot, Noblock was living with Surratt when he died, and he didn't and did not immigrate to America.

[7:46] Tommy Nolan: She died of cirrhosis of the liver at the age of 35.

[7:49] Jess McInly: That would have made a great musical.

[7:51] Tommy Nolan: It's like that part in Hamilton where Lin-Manuel Miranda is like, "And then Hamilton got on a spaceship and he went to space to be with his space wife, but she's a mistress!"

[8:03] Tommy Nolan: BOOOOOOOO America!

[8:05] Jess McInly: That did happen.

[8:06] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, that did, it's true, truly real life.

[8:09] Jess McInly: So, what are our thoughts on Sunday in the Park with George?

[8:12] Tommy Nolan: Um, Jess, you're on record of not liking this musical.

[8:16] Tommy Nolan: Oh god, I have a sordid and storied history with this musical.

[8:20] Tommy Nolan: I still, mmm, it always pains me to talk about it because people get angry when I don't like things, which is, uh, weird.

[8:29] Tommy Nolan: Um, how dare you not like Shrek the Musical?

[8:32] Jess McInly: I know, or when I got legitimate.

[8:34] Tommy Nolan: Or the movie or SpongeBob.

[8:36] Tommy Nolan: Um, anyway, um, we didn't get Shrek, SpongeBob.

[8:40] Tommy Nolan: Uh, I recently rewatched Shrek the movie, actually, like the movie movie.

[8:44] Tommy Nolan: It's weird to rewatch.

[9:17] Tommy Nolan: Um, no, Sunday in the Park with George, I like my experience with it is bizarre in my relation to other Sondheim pieces because it was one that stayed out of my lexicon for a long time, and then, mm, eons ago, back when I used to do videos, um, I watched it for part of Sondheim September and was legitimately disappointed on camera in ways that are difficult to articulate.

[9:17] Tommy Nolan: And the blowback was so immense that there is a follow-up video, which I have never rewatched.

[9:17] Tommy Nolan: Um, I've never rewatched either of these actually since the whole thing blew over, where I talk about some of my mixed opinions about Sunday in the Park with George.

[9:26] Tommy Nolan: And, um, you know, I think my experience has molded and changed since that time, but I still, I don't know.

[9:35] Tommy Nolan: I still don't know how I feel about this show.

[9:37] Jess McInly: So are you leaning positive or negative, do you think now?

[9:40] Tommy Nolan: Oh, don't make me make a decision.

[9:43] Tommy Nolan: Um, there are parts and feelings of this show that I greatly enjoy.

[9:49] Tommy Nolan: And I think structurally and commercially, it has some glaring flaws that the people involved I feel like I should know they should know better about and should have done better about.

[10:02] Tommy Nolan: I'm also, um, like I have a predisposition to be weary of art about artists because I feel that can become quickly self-indulgent in a way that I don't appreciate.

[10:14] Tommy Nolan: Um, and this one in particular, especially where it stands in Sondheim's life, risks doing that, but also happens to say a lot of things I feel about art, but it happens to say those things in the part that I think is unnecessary in the musical or challenging at the very least.

[10:30] Tommy Nolan: I don't know.

[10:31] Tommy Nolan: I'm like dead 50-50 on Sunday in the Park with George, very honestly.

[10:35] Jess McInly: How about you, Andrew?

[10:36] Jess McInly: What are your thoughts?

[10:37] Andrew Finish: I mean, obviously, I'm just giving a first impression on this, basically, but it was okay.

[10:41] Andrew Finish: I didn't really love it.

[10:43] Andrew Finish: I can't say I loved it.

[10:44] Jess McInly: How did you experience it, Andrew?

[10:46] Andrew Finish: Did you listen to it?

[10:47] Andrew Finish: Did you watch it?

[10:48] Andrew Finish: Like, it was, uh, I watched it.

[10:50] Jess McInly: Okay.

[10:50] Andrew Finish: So generally, Jess will send me, uh, like a well-known video of it or something like that.

[10:56] Jess McInly: Did you watch that version?

[10:57] Jess McInly: Did you watch the Mandy Patinkin, Bernadette Peters with the lasers?

[10:57] Andrew Finish: Yeah, there was definitely lasers.

[11:02] Jess McInly: Um, that's, it's hugely important because the different productions of this are hugely different.

[11:09] Andrew Finish: I liked the first half a decent amount, and I didn't like the second half very much.

[11:16] Tommy Nolan: That's about where I stood the first time I watched it.

[11:19] Andrew Finish: It is interesting, and like in prep for this, I reread the libretto and noticed things I never noticed before.

[11:26] Andrew Finish: And I don't know, like that still feels not okay.

[11:29] Andrew Finish: Like a musical is supposed to be able to be consumed on first brush, maybe.

[11:33] Tommy Nolan: Well, I mean, ordinarily it wouldn't be very easy to rewatch this.

[11:38] Andrew Finish: True.

[11:38] Andrew Finish: So yeah.

[11:39] Tommy Nolan: Like that's, that's the art form it's supposed to exist in.

[11:42] Tommy Nolan: Like you can see it once.

[11:43] Tommy Nolan: But like that's the crazy thing about Sunday in the Park with George specifically, and it's where I really struggle with art about artists.

[11:50] Tommy Nolan: Is like, are you using your art as a meta construct to try and teach me something about your art with artists by making this a difficult to understand piece to try and teach me a thing about the art that you're trying to create?

[12:02] Tommy Nolan: Sorry, I get a little tense about these things.

[12:04] Tommy Nolan: It's too meta.

[12:06] Tommy Nolan: It is a little beyond meta.

[12:09] Tommy Nolan: I think it is interesting that it has seen a recent, like it, you know, it did fine in the 80s, but certainly has seen a much, much bigger following in the early aughts, and then recently with the, uh, Jake Gyllenhaal slash, uh, Dr. Mysterio production.

[12:24] Andrew Finish: Is that his name?

[12:26] Tommy Nolan: Dr. Mysterio, Mr. Mysterio.

[12:27] Andrew Finish: I think it's just Mysterio.

[12:29] Tommy Nolan: No, that's the villain from the news.

[12:29] Tommy Nolan: That's the villain from the new Spider-Man movie.

[12:32] Andrew Finish: Yes, Jake Gyllenhaal, who played George Surratt in the most recent production of Sunday in the Park with George.

[12:38] Tommy Nolan: So Mysterio?

[12:39] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, that guy.

[12:41] Tommy Nolan: With the globe head and all.

[12:42] Andrew Finish: I want you to picture that in your head.

[12:44] Andrew Finish: That is, I mean, yeah, that would work.

[12:50] Tommy Nolan: My theory is the Jake Gyllenhaal production had like a hard end on it.

[12:55] Tommy Nolan: It had to finish its production by a certain date. They had to finish the end.

[12:58] Jess McInly: Well, yes.

[13:01] Tommy Nolan: And if you look at the timeline, I'm pretty sure it had to finish up so that Jake Gyllenhaal could go into production for the Spider-Man movie.

[13:09] Andrew Finish: Timeline checks out.

[13:11] Tommy Nolan: Headcan accepted.

[13:14] Jess McInly: Wait, but the guy from the Spider-Man movie is from a different timeline.

[13:17] Andrew Finish: So that doesn't make sense.

[13:20] Tommy Nolan: Different timeline, Sondheim.

[13:22] Jess McInly: The Sondheim Cinematic Universe.

[13:24] Tommy Nolan: The Sun Timeline, huh?

[13:27] Andrew Finish: Get out of it.

[13:28] Tommy Nolan: The Sun timeline is all messed up because we got Merrily going backwards and like it just doesn't make sense.

[13:35] Jess McInly: And in the last five years, the name of the book is the same name as Frank's film and Merrily Roll Along. It's all a mess.

[13:42] Andrew Finish: Oh man, what's going on here? Now does anyone care about my opinion on Sunday?

[13:44] Tommy Nolan: Sure.

[13:50] Jess McInly: I care.

[13:50] Andrew Finish: That was almost the perfect timing.

[13:57] Tommy Nolan: That was great. Um, I love this musical, but I also watched it when I was at a very impressionable age where I was in high school when I first watched this, and I saw it as a back to back with Into the Woods. So, and if you ask me, that's a perfect pairing because you got most of the actors from both of them.

[14:08] Jess McInly: Right.

[14:15] Tommy Nolan: It is kind of like a Marvel cinematic universe.

[14:17] Andrew Finish: It kinda, those two pieces specifically.

[14:19] Tommy Nolan: Oh, you throw Passion in there because then you got the narrator from Into the Woods.

[14:24] Jess McInly: Yeah.

[14:24] Tommy Nolan: That three-disc collection is a Marvel cinema.

[14:27] Andrew Finish: That is a song timeline. Iron Man 1, 2, and 3.

[14:30] Tommy Nolan: That's right. This is our next commentary.

[14:33] Jess McInly: Some timeline.

[14:35] Tommy Nolan: God. But no, I think it's like fantastic. And I'm speaking as a person whose favorite film is literally All That Jazz, which is the most like self-indulgent, like a musical about my art film. So I was prepared because I followed it up with Into the Woods, which is very much like one act is one thing, what second act is another thing. So I'm like, I was kind of lured into that already with that. So by the time I got to Sunday, I'm like, up, we're in the 80s, whatever I'm in. So I was a little bit more mentally ready for that.

[15:10] Tommy Nolan: And this isn't discrediting your thoughts either, it's just how I experienced it. So it didn't really affect me in that way. And I was more able to see like the connection of like, oh, past George was like being criticized for being too new, and then future George can't be new enough, and like that shows the difference in art then how we perceive it then and then. And I thought I was smarter because like, because we all think we're so smart in fucking high school. Um, like I get it, and a lot of people don't, and I'm so artsy. This is sometimes like blah blah blah, pretentious art boy shit.

[15:43] Andrew Finish: I mean, really it's about Curious George finishing the hat, the man in the yellow hat, George the monkey, painting the monkeys.

[15:54] Tommy Nolan: But when I first heard finishing the hat, I wept. I wept like really, really hard.

[16:00] Jess McInly: Yeah, okay.

[16:01] Tommy Nolan: Like that really affected me because like there was a feeling I had for a long time where I would just like stop focusing on people around me and just focus on whatever the fuck I was working on, like art, like whatever it'd be. And I just didn't have a way to put that into words. And he's like, you just everything else in the world doesn't matter. You, everything is out of the window, and you just have to look at the hat, finish the hat, and then you move on to the next thing. And I'm like, yeah, oh, that, that's what I do. And oh no.

[16:29] Andrew Finish: Yeah.

[16:29] Tommy Nolan: No, I think that like I, uh man, I relate to that on a deep, deep level. And I think it's also one of the reasons why I struggle with this piece because a lot of my entry into musical theater is certainly, you know, one of analysis and one of depth, but it still remains for me a piece of escapism.

[16:49] Jess McInly: Like I enjoy exploring things that aren't part of my life, and you know, I gotta stay home and finish the hat. I've done that thousands of times with varying effects. You know, whether it's a set design or a video or a podcast or something, like, hey, no, sorry, I can't come out tonight. I have to finish this thing, and I don't have to finish it for a deadline, I just have to finish it because I need to now. And like Sondheim talks about that in his book, and like that's a thing that he relates to on a visceral level, and you know, he's much more talented than anyone in the world. And I don't know, that is a thing that makes me truly and deeply uncomfortable in a way that not a lot of other things do.

[17:39] Tommy Nolan: It does make George a more compelling character, though, because you can really relate to him. Which is why I think the first half works better than the second half.

[17:47] Jess McInly: Well, the thing is the first half, George is basically a robot, and then he has that one moment of emotional introspection and then becomes a robot. Where I think George in Act II is emotional. He has these deep emotional connections with people in a way that present George has. Because George in the future doesn't have that hat finishing side of him. He doesn't turn off the world when he has to finish that. He has to put it together, talk to people, have that social commentary, be close to his grandmother. Sure, his marriage doesn't work out, but they're still really good friends. He has emotional connections and but therefore he can't make great art. Which is also a problematic idea in and of itself.

[18:27] Tommy Nolan: Yes, yes, it is. And like, should you know, I think it is problematic in general. It's certainly problematic nowadays that we have this kind of presumption that like the artist must be a destroyed human for them to be able to do art. You see it all the time in like stand-up comedians.

[18:45] Jess McInly: It comes from Beethoven.

[18:46] Tommy Nolan: I sure, absolutely. Like, you know, there must be something terribly wrong with you for you to be gifted enough to do art, which I work with plenty of artists who are just fine normal human beings. You know, not that there's anything wrong with being out of the average, but it is weird that there is this pre-consumption presumption about um, you know, what an artist should be.

[19:11] Andrew Finish: Well, it's, it's artists have to be depressed, 'cause I mean, starting with Beethoven and even modern day, you have like people like Kurt Cobain, where it's like, oh, well, he was a good artist because he was so depressed. Or even Robin Williams, like, well, like Robin Williams, people just latch on to that idea that, like, oh, they're so in pain, that's why they're so talented.

[19:30] Tommy Nolan: Yeah.

[19:30] Andrew Finish: Johnny Cash, like, on and on and on. Everyone, every artist. You know, it, that's not really, it's not cause and effect.

[19:40] Tommy Nolan: What do you mean?

[19:41] Andrew Finish: Like, I don't think the pain doesn't cause the art. They just happen to be in pain, and they also are talented. Or the fact that art is a coping mechanism often for pain as well. Like, it's not because the pain doesn't cause the art, it's just the art helps alleviate the pain.

[19:56] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, the art is a remedy for the pain. There is, and I'm gonna misrepresent it in this moment, but there's a, I think it's even a comic that's like an extrapolation of a Stephen King interview about how he used to escape into his book writing and like was really into drugs and a bunch of stuff, and like used it as an escape for his art, and then later in life, like turned that on his head, and that like art isn't the escape from his life, art is the thing he does so that he can continue to live his life, which is the important thing. Um, and like all this stuff is wrapped up in Sunday in the Park with George. You know, what is art? What is the artist? What is the line between the two? How do we even draw that line? It's really interesting when you look at the show. I noticed it rereading it today.

[20:44] Jess McInly: Um, in act one, most of the focus is on the artist. Most of the focus is on George and his character and what he's doing or isn't doing how he is or isn't loving Dot, what he is or isn't working on, and there's not a lot of focus on the art itself. If there is, it's only briefly so someone can comment on like, oh, and he's such a stupid whatever. And then you flip to act two, and at least in the beginning of act two, almost all of the focus is on the art itself. Oh, Chromaloom number 46 or whatever it is. I'd expected three, but this. And we're looking for, you know, this sort of. And what a weird. I put all the names on my, you know, of the donors on the thing of my thing. And I'm so sorry about the electricity, but your art didn't work.

But the actual focus of act two is so much more on the artist. Like we're actually looking at George's character, or in act one, we spend so much of the time looking at the physical art. The whole thing culminates with a physical representation of the piece of art. And so like that dynamic between art and artist is fascinating to me. What do you think anyway?

[21:51] Tommy Nolan: I like the dog.

[21:53] Andrew Finish: I hate the dog.

[21:55] Tommy Nolan: I love the dog.

[21:57] Andrew Finish: I hate the dog so much.

[22:00] Tommy Nolan: Sorry, I might have clicked right there and woken up my neighbors. I hate the dog song.

[22:05] Andrew Finish: Why?

[22:05] Tommy Nolan: More than anything. I hate the dog song.

[22:07] Andrew Finish: I like the song where they say that they like the dog.

[22:11] Tommy Nolan: What?

[22:12] Andrew Finish: But the dog song.

[22:14] Tommy Nolan: What's wrong with the dog song?

[22:16] Andrew Finish: So many things are wrong.

[22:18] Tommy Nolan: Stupid.

[22:19] Andrew Finish: It's stupid.

[22:20] Tommy Nolan: It's such a waste of time. They put it in act one so that something happy happens in act one, but we don't need to do that because everybody loves Louie. Um, sorry, I hate the dog song.

[22:30] Tommy Nolan: Why is that?

[22:34] Andrew Finish: Why is one of the army guys a fake plank of wood?

[22:40] Tommy Nolan: I don't get it.

[22:40] Andrew Finish: Do they not get an extra?

[22:44] Tommy Nolan: I mean, that might have been it.

[22:49] Andrew Finish: They're like, yeah, we'll just use this plank of wood.

[22:51] Tommy Nolan: It's artsy.

[22:52] Andrew Finish: I don't, I don't get it either. I really don't. And in a lot of, if you look at some other different productions, they won't do that sort of thing. A lot of the 80s, the recorded 80s one is kind of mired in some 80s stagecraft stuff.

[23:06] Tommy Nolan: Like the dress that opens up and stands on its own.

[23:11] Andrew Finish: And you're like, ooh, that was pretty silly.

[23:13] Tommy Nolan: It's so silly.

[23:15] Andrew Finish: It's so silly.

[23:15] Tommy Nolan: And it because it is so silly and like draws attention to itself, it totally detracts from the moment.

[23:21] Andrew Finish: I have a, I raise you that it, but it's that didn't detract from a moment for me.

[23:25] Tommy Nolan: But the pregnant belly, the bustle that becomes the pregnant. That one, I was like, oh, that's stupid.

[23:31] Andrew Finish: Yeah.

[23:31] Tommy Nolan: There's a lot of, well, and then, and then what was high-tech lighting design for the time when they reveal the Chroma loom and it's like pew-bew, look at this stupid thing.

[23:41] Andrew Finish: Um, it's like Star Trek.

[23:45] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, it is.

[23:45] Andrew Finish: It's like Star Trek, the musical from the 80s.

[23:50] Tommy Nolan: I wasn't even sure what was happening with the laser thing. I was like, so is he gonna like recreate the dot thing with the laser?

[23:58] Andrew Finish: It's a variation on a theme, Andrew.

[24:01] Tommy Nolan: God damn it.

[24:02] Andrew Finish: It's variation on a theme, absolutely.

[24:04] Tommy Nolan: It's all, it's just like Beethoven.

[24:05] Andrew Finish: It's like, yeah.

[24:11] Tommy Nolan: So what did you guys like?

[24:15] Andrew Finish: Well, I liked the dog you mentioned, and I got and I yelled and woke up my neighbors.

[24:21] Tommy Nolan: What did you like about the dog?

[24:22] Andrew Finish: What did you like specifically about the dog?

[24:25] Tommy Nolan: I just like that line where she says that she likes the dog.

[24:33] Andrew Finish: I like that I like in the first act when they're they have all the different characters and they're showing all the people from the painting. And I kind of wish that was the entire thing. Because I just don't understand the second act.

[24:45] Tommy Nolan: And so it was for a while. Like that's the crazy thing about this show. Is like this was Sondheim's first foray into nonprofit theater where like you don't really need to make money to like do your show. People are gonna come and witness your art to begin with. So they started this at Playwrights Horizons off Broadway, and it only ran for like 20 some shows, and only the last three had act two in them.

[25:14] Tommy Nolan: Like most people saw this show with just act one, as like, oh, we're still working on this, we're still figuring this out, and we're gonna add act two in the future.

[25:25] Andrew Finish: And then they're, it's like Sondheim was in the room with us.

[25:28] Tommy Nolan: Thank you, thank you. That's my, uh, my fourth iteration of my Sondheim impression.

[25:33] Andrew Finish: Everyone missed it, his eyes were closed, and it was like my head was rolling back, I was, I was laying down, my beard suddenly turned gray all of a sudden.

[25:42] Tommy Nolan: Uh, I was holding a pencil and a pad.

[25:45] Andrew Finish: Um, what other Sondheim markers are there?

[25:48] Andrew Finish: No, I'm not sure. I walked out of Be More Chill in Act one.

[25:52] Jess McInly: Oh god, don't get me started.

[25:55] Tommy Nolan: Um Old Wounds, Old Wounds, opening up.

[25:58] Andrew Finish: No. Uh Be More Chill's about computers, right? So he doesn't understand that.

[26:01] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, he doesn't have a phone. We talked about this, maybe, but I don't know if we were recording. Um, but so then they add act two, preview it for basically three shows, and they're like, Yeah, let's move this to Broadway.

[26:16] Jess McInly: Um.

[26:17] Tommy Nolan: Which is risky, and I think it shows. Like, I do think Act Two is less thought out than Act One.

[26:21] Jess McInly: Yeah, but it's got like three of the best songs ever written in it.

[26:25] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, it's really pretty.

[26:26] Jess McInly: I know. The one about the lasers.

[26:32] Tommy Nolan: What else was there? Um, there's putting it together, which hits me really hard because of like I've had to raise money for art before and it fucking sucks. Um, Children in Art, which is just such a really sweet moment. And you remember what feelings feel like in the second act. Um and then, of course, move on, which is literally a quote that's on every single resume I've ever submitted. Um anything from you, anything you do, let it come from you, then it will be new. Top my resume right under my name.

[27:03] Andrew Finish: That's that's good. That's that's like someone. Just like you wrote it, Jess.

[27:10] Jess McInly: Like, this is why I struggle with this because I feel these artist feelings, but it seems like sometimes the unspoken secret I want to cling to in art is that like we don't talk about our problems, we just make our art. Like you hide the sweat and tears and blood, and this show kind of brings out the sweat and tears and blood. Um, in even maybe a bigger way than Marily Rowalong did.

[27:36] Tommy Nolan: Um no one got blinded by acid in this one, though.

[27:39] Andrew Finish: That's true. It's good.

[27:41] Tommy Nolan: But there's a downside, really. Is that a requirement you have for musicals now, Andrew?

[27:47] Andrew Finish: I like it when that happens. If he had like thrown the acid at dot, it would have been dot removal.

[27:53] Tommy Nolan: Uh I hate her name, though.

[28:00] Andrew Finish: It is like the most on the fucking nose name. It's like this is a metaphor. Do you get it? This is dots. It's a metaphor.

[28:10] Tommy Nolan: He was gonna uh call the song Move On uh Primer. I think it was Move On that he was gonna call Primer, um, both to be about dots grammar primer, but also like paint primer, and then and he very specifically says, like, but that seemed too clever, so I didn't do it.

[28:28] Andrew Finish: I'm like, good. Yeah, good. It was too clever. No one would understand.

[28:32] Tommy Nolan: I think in our Marily video, I talked about how up his assontime is and how overconfident he is, and like Yeah, see, like, I don't know, because he has these moments of like total self-doubt that you see come up now and again. Um, like in the in the It's all a facade.

[28:52] Jess McInly: Well, in the very back of Look I Meta, you can find his um preface to God, which was the most recent song he's written for Sontime on Sontime in 2010. Um it is like uh self-depreciating, like, oh, the man's a god about himself. Um and the intro he gives is like, yeah, you know, this is stupid. And if you listen to the song, it like paints him in this really like self-depreciating light. Like any artist is uncertain of their art, no matter how ridiculously successful they are, which is like both reassuring and horribly demoralizing at the same time.

[29:36] Tommy Nolan: So is he doubting his own art, or is he actually so egotistical that he wants people to think he's doubting his own art?

[29:46] Andrew Finish: Ooh, George or Sontime.

[29:49] Tommy Nolan: Either one.

[29:51] Jess McInly: I You're kind of the same person, it seems. I it is it that is an interesting question. I mean, if you look at what is what would be the full Suntime canon, Sunday in the Park with George is the fourth most recent Sondheim show, realistically speaking, if you clump bounce together into one big show.

[30:10] Tommy Nolan: So that means, you know, 1984, what several decades ago, is his fourth most recent production. Like if you map them out on a timeline, you can see they get more and more and more spaced out. And in between the lines in Finishing the Hat and Look I Made a Hat, there is like a whole narrative of self-doubt, especially as he's growing older, especially related to with um the opinions people have of him.

[30:42] Jess McInly: You know, people like us, right? People who do things like this, who exalt him onto like higher, higher levels, and like he wants to be able to meet that, but is scared that he won't. It's a huge reason why uh Merrill Rolong was so absolutely destroying to him because he, you know, he was the golden boy of Broadway and then got shot down big time. Like most egos can't take a quarter of that destruction, much less what he got. And he, you know, he takes he took it with uh I think as much humbleness as people could, and then came back to it and made Sunday in the park with George, which people exalt as this, you know, hugely metaphorical, artistic, non commercially viable piece. Um, and like he didn't come back right after Mary Lou Rowlong and write into the woods.

Hugely successful blockbuster film, like, you know, performed in high schools across the country, um, like got the commerciality of musical theater. He instead came back and wrote Sunday in the Park with George, an introspective piece about the artist doubting his own art. Like, I really think sometimes self-doubt is absolutely legitimate. And, you know, again, it is comforting because we all have that same self-doubt, and terrifying because it means that self-doubt will never, ever, ever go away.

[32:06] Andrew Finish: No, we never self-doubt, though. We never self-doubt the art of making art, which is putting it together, which means making money. Andrew, do you want to go into a mid-show announcement?

[32:16] Andrew Finish: Oh god. Yeah, sure.

[32:22] Jess McInly: There was some gymnastics to make that fucking work.

[32:27] Andrew Finish: You are the worst, Jess.

[32:35] Tommy Nolan: Jess is my dot, okay.

[32:38] Andrew Finish: Yeah, he can stand in place and all his clothes just stay there and he can walk away.

[32:44] Jess McInly: Oh, I'd like to see that.

[32:46] Andrew Finish: Alright, today's show is brought to you by Audible. Audible is offering our listeners a free audiobook with a 30-day free trial membership. Just go to Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs. Download a title free and start listening. It's that easy. Go to Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese to get started today.

[33:04] Jess McInly: Today I am suggesting Act One from the autobiography by Moss Hart by James LePine. Um, narrated by several people, and it's pretty good because James LePine also wrote the book to Sunday in the park with George. I'm so clever. To download your free audiobook today, go to Audibletrial.com slash musicals with cheese. Again, that's Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese for your free audiobook.

[33:26] Andrew Finish: Andrew, talk about our affiliate link.

[33:28] Andrew Finish: Oh my goodness. There's a link in the description of all of our episodes that goes to Amazon. And if you buy anything after clicking that link, we will receive a portion of that money that you spend on Amazon. Uh, just for buying things you'd buy anyways. So uh do do that if you like us. Thank you.

[33:44] Jess McInly: Yes, yes, please. Tommy, do you have anything you just say?

[33:48] Tommy Nolan: What should we do if we don't like you?

[33:53] Andrew Finish: Send all the emails to musicaltheatermash@gmail.com. About how yeah, send me more sad emails about you're afraid that I'm dead or something.

[34:04] Tommy Nolan: Oh geez. Yeah, I know. Welcome to my world. No, I read all the emails. Most of them are very nice. Only a few people think I'm dead, which is weird, because I still send drunken tweets from time to time.

[34:14] Andrew Finish: My question is, um, I I am from the Hell and Bottom Carter fan club, and I've got a few choice words for you.

[34:21] Tommy Nolan: God.

[34:22] Andrew Finish: Oh boy.

[34:22] Tommy Nolan: No, my favorite is like it's over. Hey, I enjoyed your meme video, but the audio was weird. And like, yeah, I didn't know what I was doing. Anyway.

[34:32] Andrew Finish: Oops.

[34:33] Tommy Nolan: Oops. Alright, let's get back to the show, folks.

[34:35] Jess McInly: The tip of a stay.

[34:38] Tommy Nolan: Right under the tit.

[34:40] Jess McInly: No, don't give in just the arm.

[34:44] Andrew Finish: Don't lift the arm.

[34:45] Tommy Nolan: Sunny in the park with George!

[34:48] Jess McInly: Hi, please.

[34:50] Andrew Finish: Not even a nod.

[34:52] Tommy Nolan: As if I were trees.

[34:54] Jess McInly: The ground could open.

[34:56] Andrew Finish: He would still say please.

[34:59] Tommy Nolan: Never know with you, George.

[35:01] Jess McInly: Who can know with you?

[35:03] Tommy Nolan: The others I knew, George. Before we get through, Monk continue too.

[35:09] Jess McInly: God, I am sorry. Alright, let's talk about the music. Because we somehow did not talk about almost any songs.

[35:16] Andrew Finish: There's music in this show?

[35:18] Jess McInly: Well, I mean, the songs are secondary.

[35:20] Tommy Nolan: The song.

[35:23] Jess McInly: This isn't like a Muppet movie or something. Like the songs really aren't that important in this.

[35:27] Tommy Nolan: What did you guys think of that opening number, Sunday in the Park with George? Like the two-hander number. It's like the strangest opening in the world.

[35:34] Jess McInly: I love the music in this show.

[35:37] Tommy Nolan: I know. Alright. This is why I'm conflicted.

[35:41] Andrew Finish: End of show. Outro. Audible.com brought you here. Welcome.

[35:45] Jess McInly: No.

[35:47] Tommy Nolan: No. So Sunday in the Park with George, the opening number leads in via musical motifs into color and light, leads in through musical motifs to we do not belong together, leads into through musical motifs, move on. And it is this like four-song microcosm of the progression of the show. It's like, you know, boy meets girl, boy can't get girl, boy loses girl, boy finds girl again. It's the music is beautiful and gives me great anxiety. The end. A thesis by musical theater mash.

[36:21] Tommy Nolan: Maybe when I get my PhD.

[36:22] Jess McInly: You also don't have to wait at all before they get right into the title of the show, which is excellent.

[36:26] Tommy Nolan: That's true. Do you ever like wait the whole the whole the whole movie or show or something? He's like, oh, say the title. Say the title. When are you gonna say it?

[36:33] Andrew Finish: So they never they never said end game during end game. You know, in that moment, end game spoilers ahead, but in that moment where the Hulk was like eating all those lollipops and like got really tiny and turned purple, and he was like, Oh, this is such the Avengers end of times. And I was like, he was so close.

[36:50] Jess McInly: Oh, he could have just said it, you know?

[36:52] Tommy Nolan: The game is saying it!

[36:54] Andrew Finish: Remember when Ant-Man like Hawkeye, picked up Ant Man to fire him at Thanos?

[36:58] Tommy Nolan: Right.

[36:58] Andrew Finish: And like Hawkeye said, This is your end game. Right? When they were when they had that when everyone like finally got along again, and Thanos was like, hey guys, you want to play Monopoly? And they like sat around the table, like and you know, uh Seven hours later and Iron Man like finally got Park Place and it was like, ha! This is the end of the game! And you're like, Oh, you were so close!

[37:25] Tommy Nolan: You know, you know what though? It could be worse. You know, there are worse things that staring out of the water on a Sunday.

[37:27] Andrew Finish: There are worse things to staring at the water is putting for a picture of sleeping in a fair of getting up at 70, giving over at a lion in the middle of a river at a half hour from the city on a sunday.

[37:39] Jess McInly: Jess, Andrew and I were having a moment. Jess, we were doing like a thing, and then you're gonna bring in musicals again.

[37:46] Tommy Nolan: Like Yeah, you gotta wait for the improv show lighting designer to turn the lights off and put the next needle drop in and goes voodoo boop boop, and then we start the next bit.

[37:55] Jess McInly: Um I just wanted to bring up how this song wasn't just a holy Sontime creation. Um he tried to do several openings, and James the Pine's just like that isn't it. And then Sondheim is like, fine, you write me what you think it should be, and I'll try my best. And so James Apine wrote this long monologue, and literally just Sontime took it and made it rhyme and fit into a meter, and I think that's pretty cool. If like, especially in the um look at made a hat, like you've got the comparison, it's like, wow. Really wow. And I think that shows you a bit more of how Sontime's like work ethic than anything else in the book or like work technical.

[38:31] Tommy Nolan: It is interesting. He talks a lot about Le Pine as a uh collaborator, and like how he was a different kind of collaborator than he had experienced before. Like very artful and quiet and and it is interesting that Lapine ends up very often directing the things that he writes.

[38:49] Tommy Nolan: He did it with Sunday and he ends up doing it with Woods. Um and he's done it a bunch of times. Falsettos and falsettos, and I think Spelling Bee, although don't quote me on that. No, he didn't write Spelling Bee, I don't think. I don't um I remember it started as an improv it's uh that's true. Maybe maybe he is quoted as a book writer. Anyway, sometimes I make shit up on the internet. Whoops. Uh it's true now. Lucille Ball is the best meme. You heard it here, folks. Let's talk about color and light.

[39:21] Tommy Nolan: Red, red, red, red, red, red, orange, red, red, orange, orange, pick up blue, pick up red, pick up orange from the blue green blue green blue green circle on the violet diagonal. Still sitting red. That perfume blue all my blue blue. Oh, window shut up, setting dot that waiting dot that waiting to go up. No, no, no, George finish the hat. Finish the hat. Todd in here!

[39:50] Andrew Finish: I like this song.

[39:52] Tommy Nolan: Yeah.

[39:53] Andrew Finish: What do you like about it?

[39:54] Tommy Nolan: I like when he starts babbling like a lunatic. Um It's weird that Sondheim put the breakdown's number as a second song. And I call the collar. I I like how they're both singing about like the same thing but in different ways, kind of. I I I don't know. It's great. It's good. I don't know what to say. I love one of my favorite moments of this show is when like we're we are seeing George slowly forget that he's supposed to go to the follies with Dot tonight, right? And like you kind of know a little bit before the characters do that this is about to happen. Um, but then Dot comes in and says, What color dress should I wear tonight, the blue or the red? And immediately George says red, because colors are his jam.

And like, Dot, you look good in red. You should wear red. And then she's like, Aren't you gonna get ready? And he's like, why? And it is fascinating, because like he's like, you should be wearing the red dress. Why are you wearing the red dress? Oh, the follies? I can't go. Gotta paint this painting. And like that reversal is such a it's such a microcosm of their characterization. Like he looks at her and he doesn't even see a human. He just sees the way she catches light, the color of her eyes, um, the color of her hair, and just like how it all fits up. Like how she visually is represented as a painting in life. How he would paint her.

[41:19] Jess McInly: Do you think George loves Dot?

[41:21] Tommy Nolan: No. He cannot divide his feelings as neatly as you, and he is not escaping to his canvas, he's living in it. He he does also say to her that, like, you know, you what do you want me to say? You always knew what I was going to say. Well, she wants him to be things he just can't be. A father, like, there's no way George is gonna be a good father to anyone.

[41:42] Andrew Finish: True.

[41:43] Tommy Nolan: Yeah. And he's not a good son, he's not a good lover, he's not good at any relationship. The best relationship he has is between that palette and his eyes.

[41:54] Jess McInly: Okay. Do you think I think this also then draws into question like are George Sr. and George Jr. the same person? Because then move on is such an interesting question. Because in some ways it's almost like a love reunification between George and Dot. He finally gets her to say the things he wants them to say if he's the same thing.

[42:19] Tommy Nolan: I think they are the same, George. Variations on a theme.

[42:23] Jess McInly: That's a good way to put it. But if they're variations, they're not the same. But as his mother says in act one, they're all the same woman, and he replies, variations of a theme. And I think it's very same with himself. I think that's slight foreshadowing for that.

[42:38] Tommy Nolan: Yeah. Yeah. Are you saying that they're literally the same, George?

[42:41] Jess McInly: I'm saying it's theatrically the same, George. And like cle it's always the same actor. You know, we're we're playing fast and loose with time and character in the show in hugely important ways. Um, variations on a theme is certainly an interesting lens to look at it through, which I'm contemplating in my brain hole right now.

[43:04] Tommy Nolan: Because that's repeated all the time, even when he's referring to humans. And like, I think the one closest thing we get to an emotional moment between George and anyone that isn't like a dog or something, is between him and his mother. And I find that strange because she also sees the world differently in a way very similar to him, and we'll get to that when we talk about fucking we're talking about beautiful now.

[43:24] Jess McInly: Um as we see tears. Um the beautiful is like her saying, like there are towers where there were trees, and he's like, No, you're that's not how the world was. She's like, This is how I'm seeing it, and it used to be beautiful, and now it isn't. And that's either about her like getting closer to death and like all that, or just her seeing the world differently than George or than everyone else, in the same way that George sees things differently than everyone else.

[44:11] Tommy Nolan: Well, and she also has that line, like, this is how I see it. Please draw it all so that we can remember this, which starts the theme of like, you know, everything from it's hot up here to the like, you know, forever in Sunday, like a normal Sunday immortalized forever. Um, you know, I think the the lines between beautiful and children and art are so clearly easy to draw. Like, there are two things you can make in your life art or children, and that's it. That's your legacy.

[44:38] Jess McInly: Which it's scary.

[44:40] Tommy Nolan: That's real scary. Yeah. Like you're gonna, you know, the it's like contemplation of death, but here are some ways you can fight it. Here are some ways you can defeat death. I get you got two options make children or make art, and that's it. It's a it's a it's a scary charge, Mr. Sondheim. How dare you? Should have been more nihilistic about it.

[45:07] Jess McInly: Because in all reality, the earth will get sucked into a black hole, and all the children and all the art will be gone forever.

[45:12] Tommy Nolan: So true, but then Doctor Who will be sailing away with uh a Sunday on the Grand Jot in his TARDIS.

[45:18] Jess McInly: Doctor Who is just another piece of art, he'll be gone as well.

[45:22] Tommy Nolan: God damn it. You must have done an episode on you're in town recently.

[45:29] Jess McInly: But to see It's the only way to see.

[45:36] Tommy Nolan: And when the woman that you want it goes, you can say to yourself, while I give what I give. But the woman who won't wait for you knows that's how ever you live. There's a part of you always standing by mapping out the sky. Finishing the hat. Starting on the hat. Finishing the hat is good. I like finishing the hat quite a bit.

[46:06] Andrew Finish: Yeah.

[46:09] Tommy Nolan: I love finishing the hat. Finishing the hat might be one of my favorite Sondheim songs. I think it's the best character song for George, if that if I'm using that term correctly, but um, and I think it has a uh a hummable melody. I had to. Okay. But no, it's very good though. Take that, Jerry Herman.

[46:34] Andrew Finish: Honestly, it's more humble than I am what I am.

[46:37] Tommy Nolan: Hey, I am what I am is beautiful. I'm not hating on I am what I am, but I hum finishing the hat more.

[46:43] Andrew Finish: True.

[46:43] Tommy Nolan: That's probably because he hums during the song. Um bum da. I think my my deep cut love in act one is uh everybody loves Louie. Um yeah. And like there are other songs in there that hit me deeper that are more important, but if we're talking like my, you know, my baby, my love and joy, like musical theater analysis, everybody loves Louie is a fantastic, like character exposition transition song.

[47:13] Andrew Finish: Everybody loves Louie, Louie makes from the home. The breath George.

[47:23] Tommy Nolan: I mean the breath, George, and then in bed George. I mean he needs me. I mean, like Dolge.

[47:44] Andrew Finish: Oh.

[47:47] Tommy Nolan: We have, you know, there is not a lot of overt exposition in this. We don't have a lot of time to see Dot's jealousy. We barely have enough time to see Dot and George kind of break up. It happens in the middle of Everybody Loves Louie after it's happened for the characters. She's like, hey, George, this is Louie. I want you to meet him. Also because we're dating, and I haven't been dating you for much of the story that has progressed since this moment, but the audience is just finding that out right now. And the music is bouncy, so it feels happy. Um, but also like um, he needs me like Brad George. Oh, it's funny. It's funny in a way that not a lot of people understand. Like if you look it up in finishing the hat, it's needs with a K. Like he needs me.

It's it's interesting and like well timed. And a comedic break in an otherwise very serious piece, which is one of the reasons why I feel so defiantly about the dog song. Like you don't need that break right then. We have one coming up very soon, and everybody loves Louie.

[48:58] Andrew Finish: Um, not memorable. No one's gonna audition with Everybody Loves Louie, I guarantee that. If you do audition with that, uh good for you. Um there's only like one line I really like in Everybody Loves Louie, and the fact that I don't know, it's just grating on the ears. It really is not a pleasant song to listen to. But the one line I like is Louis's thoughts are not hard to follow. Louis's art isn't hard to swallow, which I think is like a very uh very clever, much like how you say um the needing line is. Double entendre. It's clever, it's metaphorical. But it is like this is, you know, it is the embodiment of like my struggle with some of this. Is like on first listen, you can get um, you know, Louie's art is not hard to swallow. There's a lot of stuff on first listen you can't get in Sunday in the park line. That's also true of all Sondheim's work.

[49:46] Tommy Nolan: Do you think everyone gets a tend to the tale of Sweeney Todd on first listen of Sweeney Todd?

[49:51] Andrew Finish: I mean, I think they get enough. He's an evil barber who kills things, and you think it's fun at the end of Act One, and then you're scared of yourself by the end of Act Two.

[49:59] Tommy Nolan: I mean, yes, you get that, but what about the clever word play specifically?

[50:03] Andrew Finish: For sure. But by the end of Sunday in the park with George, you're like, are they the same Georges? Are they not the same Georges? Why why was she dot, but then she is mother, but then she's dot again. Is he the same person? Did we go forward? Why is that why are they shining lasers at me now? I don't understand.

[50:18] Tommy Nolan: Right? Like, there's not a moment in Sweeney Todd where you're gonna have to turn to the person next to you and you're like, uh, what's happening?

[50:25] Andrew Finish: Um and I think like I Which is a good thing.

[50:28] Tommy Nolan: Which is a well, is it? I don't think it's I don't think it's unintentional. Do you think it's a a good thing? A good a good thing that you don't have to uh ask someone else what's happening?

[50:38] Andrew Finish: Yes, I do think that's a good thing.

[50:39] Tommy Nolan: Okay. I like I like a little research. I like vegetables.

[50:43] Jess McInly: Well, you know what? If I have to buy one ticket for a show, I'm not going back, okay?

[50:47] Tommy Nolan: But you got the playbill in front of you to tell you exactly what's going on.

[50:50] Andrew Finish: Shut the fuck up, he's really sick of me using that.

[50:57] Tommy Nolan: Nobody gave me a playbill for this.

[51:00] Andrew Finish: That's why you gotta stop sneaking into shows. Um they don't give you a playbill if you come in the back door. But like, that's that's the question, right? That's the qu like this is why this show is so meta, right? Do I need to understand your art to appreciate it? You know, should your art be able to be its art on its own as an expression of the artist, whether or not the audience conceives of it and understands it? Like it it is there is a whole story layer explicitly not explicitly, but like exactly laid on top of the implicit story that exists in Sunday in the park with George about Steven Sondheim, about his understanding of art and whether or not people should appreciate his stuff, take it at face value, or understand the weird bizarre metaphors he's starting to, you know, come out with and like his voice, and like which is the right thing because Broadway only exists in its commercial viability.

[51:58] Tommy Nolan: You know.

[52:51] Jess McInly: On the blue blah blah. You'll cut the thing in now, right? And then people will just be singing it. And that's that's it. It won't just be me going to purple violet triangle.

[53:02] Tommy Nolan: Can I just go on a tangent about my favorite version of Sunday? Um, it's a birthday concert. No, it's the one orchestrated by Jason Robert Brown, which it's just fucking big, and it sounds incredible.

[53:15] Jess McInly: I have not heard this one.

[53:17] Tommy Nolan: It is yes, you should listen to it, because it really I'll put it on my list. It is a wall of voices that start very s like it's like everything that Sonti did in like the eighty-four version, but taken to the nth degree.

[53:33] Andrew Finish: Of course.

[53:34] Tommy Nolan: Jason Robert Brown, president of the Jason Robert Brown fan club.

[53:39] Jess McInly: We might get sued for the last five years episode.

[53:43] Tommy Nolan: I don't know if it's my I don't know if it's my favorite version of Sunday, but it it's up there. Do you have you ever listened to Tic Tic Boom by Jonathan Larson?

[53:52] Andrew Finish: Yes.

[53:53] Tommy Nolan: And his parody of Sunday in Tic Tic Boom. And bums bums bums bums bums bums bums bums also river Sunday. But it it is like it's hilarious.

[54:31] Jess McInly: Bonds, bons, bons, bons, bons, bonds, bonds.

[54:34] Tommy Nolan: Oh man. What a what a piece seeped in metaphor. Andrew, you don't do you know if I say Jonathan Larson, what does that mean to you?

[54:42] Andrew Finish: Nothing.

[54:43] Tommy Nolan: He's a dead guy who made rent. Jonathan Larson wrote Rent.

[54:46] Andrew Finish: And it's very little to me. You know Rent. Jonathan Larson had a show in that he had previously written that hadn't quite made it.

[54:57] Tommy Nolan: Oh, I think Jess talked about this when we did Rent, I believe.

[55:00] Andrew Finish: That makes sense.

[55:01] Tommy Nolan: It was posthumously produced. It was called Tic Tic Boom. And there's a song in Tic Tic Boom called Sunday, which is about the main character who is kind of a cipher for Jonathan Larson and President of the Jonathan Larson fan club.

[55:17] Andrew Finish: Exactly.

[55:18] Tommy Nolan: His quote of the his uh survival job at a diner where he has to go into work early on a Sunday morning, and it is an almost note-for-note parody of Sunday, but then the comparison of a fledgling musical theater writer, Jonathan Larson, trying to maintain his living wage by going to a diner on a Sunday morning, parodying a song written by Steven Sondheim, advanced musical theater artist, about an artist, George Surrah, trying to find his own art in a world like the you know it's the whole thing is fractal infinitely.

[56:01] Andrew Finish: It's cool.

[56:02] Tommy Nolan: The amount of meta is too much for me. Listen to it. You'll like it, even if you don't get as weirdly bizarrely obsessive about it as I do. But Sunday's a good song. Very good A to end act one. And the word forever and how it's used as like almost a like hymnal is so gorgeous.

[56:24] Jess McInly: Yeah.

[56:25] Andrew Finish: Yep. Well, and I love um the the the very end of it. How like it it builds to this huge vocal crescent crescendo, and like you think do you think it's getting really, really, really, really big, and then I think it cuts back down to like just piano, bum bum, and then the trumpet comes in and then it grows again.

[56:46] Tommy Nolan: Like it is such a reversal of orchestral expectation.

[56:49] Andrew Finish: Oh, it gives me shivers every time.

[56:53] Tommy Nolan: Putting it together, you'll come to life. Small amounts, having it to make a work of art. First of all, you need a good foundation, otherwise it's risky from the start. Takes a little cocktail conversation, but without the proper preparation, having just the visions, no solution. Everything depends on execution.

[57:10] Jess McInly: The art of making ooo. So let's talk about putting it together.

[57:16] Tommy Nolan: And the cardboard cutouts of Mandy Patinkin.

[57:18] Jess McInly: Yes. I'm sorry, you're gonna have to refresh my memory real quick.

[57:20] Tommy Nolan: Putting it together bit by bit.

[57:23] Jess McInly: Oh, that one, okay. I know.

[57:25] Tommy Nolan: You missed I know this one.

[57:26] Jess McInly: You miss Andy Patinkin. It's okay.

[57:29] Tommy Nolan: I it's true. I don't know who that is, but I I am a Nigo mentor.

[57:33] Jess McInly: You killed my father. Prepare for cardboard cutouts.

[57:37] Tommy Nolan: I don't remember the cardboard cutouts.

[57:39] Jess McInly: You obviously weren't paying attention.

[57:41] Tommy Nolan: Yeah.

[57:42] Jess McInly: I was though. He's like having conversations with potential donors, and then like cardboard cutouts come out of the stage and they continue having conversations while he goes on to do something else.

[57:50] Tommy Nolan: Yeah. Talking to the audience.

[57:52] Jess McInly: Talking to you. Yeah. You personal guess.

[57:56] Tommy Nolan: I I do remember that part where he talks to me. Because I like it when they talk to me.

[58:01] Jess McInly: Honestly, I do. I mean, that's some of my favorite stuff is when they talk directly to me.

[58:06] Tommy Nolan: Um, this is one of the catchier songs.

[58:09] Jess McInly: The song you barely remember.

[58:11] Tommy Nolan: So catchy.

[58:12] Jess McInly: Oh, I wanted to make sure I had the right one, because sometimes the title of the song is in a different song. And I I don't know.

[58:19] Tommy Nolan: Steven Saund. Sometimes the title of the song is in a different song.

[58:26] Jess McInly: Welcome, welcome to my TED Talk. Am I Am I wrong though?

[58:31] Tommy Nolan: No.

[58:31] Jess McInly: No, you've never I don't know if you've never been more right, but you're very right.

[58:39] Tommy Nolan: So we'll be talking about one song, and I'm like, oh, that song that with the title, oh, and then it's like, no, no, I was talking about this song.

[58:46] Jess McInly: Right.

[58:46] Tommy Nolan: Yeah. First midnight, second midnight, third midnight, or the last one. They're all different.

[58:50] Jess McInly: What about the moment it's in the woods or any moment?

[58:54] Tommy Nolan: No, I do like this song. And um talking with all the donors and everything. But I I don't know. This was kind of where I was still kind of lost from the transition from act one to two, and I was trying to figure out what the heck was going on.

[59:06] Andrew Finish: Um, so yeah, it was a little bit rough for me. I get I get confused very easily. If you've seen our show, you know this.

[59:14] Tommy Nolan: Wait till the last five years episode where he was convinced there was two couples.

[59:19] Andrew Finish: I I thought there was.

[59:24] Tommy Nolan: When you do like a time jump and it's the same person playing a different character that has the same name, and now he those lasers, and I'm like, okay, what the fuck is happening?

[59:31] Jess McInly: Yeah, but what did you what did you think about George 3?

[59:35] Andrew Finish: There was a third one?

[59:39] Tommy Nolan: No, there I won't. Is that the one that time travels back in time to meet Dot?

[59:43] Andrew Finish: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then they have to restart the universe by blowing up the TARDIS.

[59:47] Tommy Nolan: What are we talking about?

[59:48] Andrew Finish: Right.

[59:49] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, there is something going on in the second act. I love this song. This song's so fun.

[59:52] Andrew Finish: It is fun.

[59:54] Tommy Nolan: No, it is fun. It's a it's a fun song. If you just listen to it by itself and and don't get confused, it's great.

[1:00:01] Andrew Finish: It's a frustrating song though, because you are like all the things that are being said to him are things that we artists have had said to us, like, oh it's they love to give um advice, George.

[1:00:13] Tommy Nolan: Yeah.

[1:00:13] Andrew Finish: Well, and that's the the fascinating thing about putting it together is it is like one of Sontime's most rewritten songs for other things. You could see it in Finishing the Hat. Like he rewrote it for Barbara Streisand and he rewrote it for putting it together, the review he wrote, and a bunch of other things.

[1:00:31] Tommy Nolan: And in every other incarnation, the it in putting it together is the art. It's like you have to find these pieces and you have to convince the director. Like in all the lyrics he rewrote, it's about that. But in Sunday in the park with George putting it together, the it for the most part is the funding, which is fascinating.

[1:00:51] Andrew Finish: And also the rhymes in the song are like Sontime at his absolute best.

[1:00:56] Tommy Nolan: Like 100%. A beautiful song to listen to. And I do think I think you're right, Andrew. It is one of the more listenable songs. Obviously, you guys had the dog song, which is the most listenable song.

[1:01:12] Andrew Finish: You know Shut the Do you know what do you know what the dog song is?

[1:01:16] Tommy Nolan: It's rough.

[1:01:18] Andrew Finish: When the dog song came on, I thought something had snapped in his head and he had lost it.

[1:01:24] Tommy Nolan: So, I mean, I wasn't really sure what was going on. Sontime's initial plan for the dog song was to put what was then called a vocoder, but we might call an auto-tuner or a voice changer in the paint palette that Mandy Petinkin would be holding during that number so that they could switch it on and off to change his voice as he impersonated the different dogs.

[1:01:48] Jess McInly: That is a great idea, and why didn't he do it?

[1:01:54] Tommy Nolan: That feels like a Hal Prince and I'm just gonna put you all on t-shirts.

[1:01:58] Andrew Finish: I think he couldn't he probably couldn't get the funding for the vocoders.

[1:02:02] Tommy Nolan: That was what it is. No, Mandy Petinkin was like, I I can do it myself. Why do you need a voice changer?

[1:02:06] Andrew Finish: Yeah, that's really what happened.

[1:02:07] Tommy Nolan: Mandy Patin was like, I am Mandy Petinkin. How dare you?

[1:02:10] Andrew Finish: Yeah, that's rough.

[1:02:12] Tommy Nolan: Rough grass is rough, and the girls are rough, and Mandy Petinkin is rough.

[1:02:18] Andrew Finish: Rough!

[1:02:19] Tommy Nolan: Let's talk about move on.

[1:02:34] Jess McInly: Let others make that decision they usually do. You keep moving on.

[1:02:43] Andrew Finish: Can we get a cover of that by Rolf the Dog?

[1:02:46] Tommy Nolan: I don't I don't think that exists.

[1:02:48] Jess McInly: So we all love this song, right?

[1:02:51] Andrew Finish: I love this song.

[1:02:52] Tommy Nolan: The dog song?

[1:02:53] Jess McInly: Move on.

[1:02:53] Andrew Finish: No, get out of here.

[1:02:55] Tommy Nolan: Move on.

[1:02:56] Jess McInly: Move on!

[1:02:57] Andrew Finish: Move on is the move on is the most emotional moment of time travel I've ever seen. And I watch Endgame.

[1:03:05] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, that part where after the Monopoly game.

[1:03:09] Andrew Finish: Um shit, don't spoil that part.

[1:03:13] Tommy Nolan: That's a good point. I know, everyone loves the.

[1:03:15] Andrew Finish: You know, you never you never thought Stan Lee would have his cameo as the top hat.

[1:03:20] Tommy Nolan: Um he had to finish it.

[1:03:27] Andrew Finish: Agreed. And it says something like really effective to me, where it feels like this all has a resolution in a way that is emotionally satisfying, although logically it may not always link together.

[1:03:38] Tommy Nolan: It says something very satisfying if you accept that George in the future is the same George from the past.

[1:03:44] Andrew Finish: And it says something very confusing if you don't.

[1:03:47] Tommy Nolan: True. But I think that is the moment where where you need to like accept that conceit that like Dot, at least in her world, thinks she's talking to George Surratt the first. Um, or however you want to conceive of him.

[1:04:00] Andrew Finish: Very Shannon theme. So this is like a extremely meta musical talking about the work of art of a person whose entire history has been completely bastardized to the point where it basically is entirely fiction fictitious. Right? Isn't that crazy?

[1:04:16] Tommy Nolan: And we all love it. Just ask how Alexander Hamilton feels right now.

[1:04:24] Andrew Finish: Rip. No, I mean, you know, uh, what is it?

[1:04:31] Tommy Nolan: Stop worrying if your vision is new, let others that make that decision, they usually do. Powerful, powerful, powerful words to any artist out there. Um, like, you know, people are gonna judge you, get over it. Um if you try to serve the people, you'll never make it. You have to do what makes you and like this is this is where I struggle with not stru struggle is really the wrong word. I'm misusing it. This is where I find this musical very challenging on a personal level. Like, I'm a high school theater teacher. I work with, you know, neophyte artists on a daily basis who are just learning their art for the very first time. This is the first time I'm singing a song in front of the audience.

This is my first lighting design. This is the first time I've ever played a role. And like to find the way to give them the courage to do that is hugely difficult and hugely important because so many people, you know, like, yeah, I acted once and I hated it and I never did it again. And it that's one of the most tragic things in the world to me. And so, like, getting people to dive past the barrier of exterior criticism and the barrier of, you know, j like all of this stuff is so subjective in spite of the craftsmanship, in spite of, you know, the challenges, and like what you'll never make it if you care what everyone thinks. You should care what a couple people think, you should care what the people who you respect think, but if you care what everyone thinks, if you care what critics think, you'll never make it, which is also so bizarre to me because in my other life I critique musical theater and you know, overtly judge people.

And I try not to. I hope to never be labeled a critic, but I have on several occasions, and it, you know, my heart shrinks three sizes every day that happens. Um, you know, I love that people make art, and I hope that despite I hope they continue to do it in spite of my opinions of it, good or bad. You know, we haven't seen Helena Bonham Carter in a movie for a long while, so it's true. She's still weeping in Tim Burton's second kitchen based on my opinions of Tim Burton left her because of your video. So it's true, it's true. But don't they still live in the same conjoined house? Anyway. Um I think I think Movine is beautiful and hugely challenging.

[1:07:11] Jess McInly: Yes. I mean, I agree, like even that quote you said earlier, like that applies to even things on a smaller level. Like when I started this podcast, I was like, it's too similar to the happy hour podcast, or at least in structure. I was like, don't worry if your vision is new. You know, like that was running through my head, and then I just did it. Yeah. And like that's, you know, that is is the biggest lesson I think to be learned of this thing. And is why the metadess of it like kind of falls through. And is why I absolutely struggle with it so much, is because it does strike such a really particular core, like in both its individual beats and as a whole. Like I have talked in the past about things like Great Comet and stuff, where like it is building, building, building, building, building to a really satisfying ending, but the ending, if you listen to it on its own, is not terribly satisfying.

The individual beats of Sunday in the Park with George are very impactful and satisfying on their own. It's why so many of these things ha so many of these songs have lives beyond this musical. But then when you put them all together and you put them in order and you attach characters and meaning to them, it becomes this really, really challenging evening that is challenging an audience about the audience's perception of art while they are experiencing a piece of art. Um it's very there was a uh uh theater group in failed theater history, but sometime called The Futurists. Um think maybe more than a century ago, that's about as accurate as I can get. And the futurists were very um adversarial to their audience.

They would often like put fresh paint on the seats in the auditorium before the ladies showed up in their fancy dresses. Yeah, a literal thing they would do, so that they would sit down and get paint on their asses and like really challenge their audience, and their, you know, a lot of their motto is like, yeah, we're doing art, fuck you. I'm oversimplifying now. Um, but it's a weird world for art to live in because we often envision art as this like commercial, you know, public satisfying average sort of thing, you know, the Taylor Swifts and the Be More Chills of the World. And those are awesome. Exactly. And like those are great. We should all get shawarma in our post-credit scene from time to time, but we also need the bizarre and strange pushing the boundaries of the world.

And like then to make a piece that's commenting on that, where people are, people are, you know, characters are saying to George, "Oh, pointillism, what do you mean? It's just colors. That looks red when it's close up, but really it looks like a hat far away." Like the meta knows no bounds in this show. It's too meta.

[1:10:12] Jess McInly: Alright. So, what are your overall thoughts on Sunday in the Park with George and your cheese rating? I'm gonna start with Andrew and let Tommy think about his cheese rating for a second. I think does he need to be explained the cheese rating, or are we good?

[1:10:21] Andrew Finish: I do not need to be explained the cheese rating.

[1:10:26] Jess McInly: It's nonsense. I mean I I never can decide, and I always the one that has to pick first. And you made it up.

[1:10:35] Andrew Finish: I made it up. Do you want me to go up first?

[1:10:39] Jess McInly: No, I just I do just want to say that the real moral of this whole musical is that eventually you may create art that is good enough that someone else will come along and retell your story completely inaccurately, so no one understands who you were. George Saraton might have been just like a really deeply emotional, kind open fella. But no, he's a fucking asshole. How's that for immortalized dick? Children and art, am I right? Alright. Both his children died, so this is what we got. Okay, but no, I mean, as far as uh as far as the musical goes, I really I like the music, and I like the first act quite a bit, and then it just kind of tumbles into itself, and uh it ends up I think it ends up with its head firmly up its ass, and I I don't know if I can appreciate that. So, I don't know. It's fine. It's a little too meta for me.

[1:11:49] Jess McInly: What kind of cheese is that, though?

[1:11:52] Andrew Finish: Oh, what kind of cheese is that? Jesus Christ. Right? I don't know. I'm gonna have to consider my cheese rating. I'm deliberating.

[1:12:05] Jess McInly: Alright. I'll go next. Um Sunday in the Park with George is probably not my favorite Sondheim, but it has my favorite Sondheim songs in it. Like my top three Sondheim songs are all in this musical. So take that for what it is. Um I love it. Um I don't think that the original Broadway recording is the best way to view it. Um I would never appropriate or tell you to go find a bootleg of the Jake Gyllenhaal production, but you know No, don't ever do that. But if you Google it, it'll just show up.

[1:12:39] Andrew Finish: Yes.

[1:12:40] Jess McInly: Don't do it. Or the Julian Ovenden um French production that was also very good.

[1:12:47] Andrew Finish: Yeah, absolutely. Don't do that. It's fabulous. Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't even try.

[1:12:51] Jess McInly: Nope, nope, nope. Um But my cheese rating is actually macaroni and cheese by Crayola. Where if you use that as a dot, you can create art.

[1:13:06] Andrew Finish: What the fuck are you talking about, Jess?

[1:13:09] Jess McInly: Uh my cheese rating is Brie. But also Yeah, I was gonna go with something like that as well. But also as a child, I did not like Brie, and I had lots of friends who would like Brie, and they'd be like, You should try Brie, and I would try it, and I didn't like it. And I would sort of pretend I didn't like it because I had already established this facade that I didn't like it. But sometimes secretly at 2 a.m. I'd go to the grocery store and buy a pound of Brie and eat it quietly and hope the internet doesn't hear me eating it. Yeah, fuck you, internet. Yeah, that's the thing to say as a content creator. Oops.

[1:13:51] Andrew Finish: You figured out your cheese rating yet?

[1:13:55] Andrew Finish: Yeah, sure. I'll give it blue cheese. Why not?

[1:13:58] Jess McInly: Ah, blue, blue, blue, blue, blue, blue, blue.

[1:14:04] Andrew Finish: So, you know, it's fine.

[1:14:06] Jess McInly: Tommy, I am so glad you came on. This was so much. This was so much fun, you guys. This was fantastic. Do you have anything you want to promote out there?

[1:14:14] Tommy Nolan: Oh god. I don't know. I still I like to think of my internet presence as a hibernation, not an abandonment. Um keep your eye on musical mash on Twitter and Musical Theater MASH on YouTube. I'm, you know, to quote Elaine Stritch, I'm still here. Um maybe sooner rather than later. Maybe later rather than sooner. Who knows? It's a moose.

[1:14:35] Jess McInly: He's working on something, guys.

[1:14:38] Tommy Nolan: Yeah, I don't even know what it is, but we'll see. And if I can give a personal recommendation if you're all caught up on Musicals with Cheese and looking for another musical theater podcast. Um make sure you watch all of our episodes first, obviously. Don't move all of them. Every single one. Even our Christmas Carol Weird episode. You gotta listen through all that.

[1:15:00] Andrew Finish: Oh, we that was a good one, actually.

[1:15:02] Tommy Nolan: I thought that was funny. Um, if I you want a good starting point that I think would be a good place to start, I'd start with their gypsy episode. It's a long one. Um I I have a funny story. That like I was going to a funeral that day, I had a four-hour drive ahead of me, and they posted it right before I left, so I was like, and that's your me up on my way there. So that that's the reason why that has such a personal.

[1:15:24] Jess McInly: Jim and Tomic's musical theater happy hour. Great pre-show podcasts before funerals.

[1:15:29] Tommy Nolan: Exactly. Very good before funerals. But if I had to give one recommendation, only listen to this before funerals. It's very good for that.

[1:15:38] Jess McInly: Speaking of the unrolls, today's show is brought to you by Audible. Audible is offering our listeners a free audiobook with a 30-day free trial membership. Just go to Audibletrial.com slash musicals with cheese and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs. Download a title free and start listening. It's that easy. Go to Audible Trial.com slash musicals with cheese.

[1:15:58] Andrew Finish: Thank you guys for me.

[1:16:03] Jess McInly: Thank you guys for listening. We are on iTunes, Spotify, Stitcher, and all other podcast platforms at Musicals with Cheese. Our Twitter is at Cheesy Musicals. Get us on Patreon. Give us a couple dollars. You can get some commentaries that nobody else can find. Um we'll be doing a new one in June, but our cats one is up there for you to take and listen to and discover how much we hate cats. Um at musicals with cheese. Our YouTube page is also musicals with cheese. Um, if you want to shoot us an email, shoot us at email at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com. Our title card was created by the amazing Jolene Casco. Send her some love at Jolene Casco on Instagram. Tommy, is there anything else you want to say before we wrap up?

[1:16:45] Tommy Nolan: Hey everyone. Thanks for listening.

[1:16:49] Andrew Finish: That's great.

[1:16:50] Jess McInly: That's great. Andrew, you got a idea.

[1:16:53] Andrew Finish: That was very good. Anything to top that.

[1:16:56] Andrew Finish: Fuck you guys. Get out of here. Dog Song deserved better representation in this show.

[1:17:06] Jess McInly: Oh, that was a rough ending. Ah, it set you up and you knock it down. That's why we're a perfect partnership. Alright, guys, we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese.