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[0:21] Miranda Moffitt: Hello and welcome to another extra special episode of Theatre in the D.

[0:24] Miranda Moffitt: I am joined as always by my partner in all things, Miranda Moffitt.

[0:28] Miranda Moffitt: Hello, everyone.

[0:30] Miranda Moffitt: And this week, thanks to ATG in Detroit, we were able to see Shaina Taub's's wonderful musical, Suffs.

[0:37] Miranda Moffitt: Um, Miranda, tell us a little bit about Suffs and what's going on there.

[0:41] Miranda Moffitt: So, Suffs, the book, music, and lyrics are all by Shaina Taub's.

[0:47] Miranda Moffitt: And this musical in particular is covering the suffragette or suffragist movement for women in the United States.

[0:54] Miranda Moffitt: Uh, starting in around the mid-1910s to the ratification of the 19th Amendment, which guaranteed the right to vote for women.

[1:02] Miranda Moffitt: That was passed in, I believe, 1920.

[1:05] Miranda Moffitt: Um, all the way up to more present-day activist movements, uh, but focusing in on that specific time period.

[1:12] Miranda Moffitt: So it's basically Hamilton, but uh for the early 1900s and women.

[1:18] Miranda Moffitt: I think that sums it up.

[1:20] Miranda Moffitt: And if you had described that to me, um, just on general premise, I think I would have cringed a bit.

[1:27] Miranda Moffitt: But my god, this show, this show was something.

[1:30] Miranda Moffitt: Um, I don't think I've been this positive about a musical I've seen in a very long time, especially a new musical.

[1:39] Miranda Moffitt: Um, this is a mastercraft of someone that has known their structure and put in the time to learn musical theater and how it works and how to use songs to tell a story that you're passionate about.

[1:53] Miranda Moffitt: And Shayna Taub is an auteur in that way, in the same way that Dave Malloy is, in the same way that um, Anaïs Mitchell is, and in the same way that Lin-Manuel Miranda is, she is one in a million, and we are lucky to have her and give her a thousand Disney films and a thousand musicals because she does this so well.

[2:15] Miranda Moffitt: Um, I loved it and I had a blast.

[2:20] Miranda Moffitt: Um, yeah, that is my overall opinion.

[2:24] Miranda Moffitt: But Brianna, what do you think?

[2:26] Brianna: I think I'm of a similar opinion.

[2:29] Brianna: I think if I'm just taking it at face value as a musical, as a piece of art, I agree with you.

[2:37] Brianna: I think it is perfectly structured.

[2:40] Brianna: I really enjoyed the songs, I enjoyed the complexity of the music, the different harmonies that they had going on and all the pieces, and this is like also kind of a rare thing for me to say is that these are songs that I think I would return to.

[2:53] Brianna: Typically, if I see a musical, I tend to enjoy it as a piece or in small pieces um for things that I really like, but I don't tend to go back to it unless I really, really liked it.

[3:03] Brianna: I think for this, there were songs in that I really, really enjoyed, and I will return to.

[3:09] Brianna: Um, I think if I'm thinking about it as something representing history, it feels a little bit more complicated to me, as like I said, somebody who is pretty interested in the history.

[3:19] Brianna: I think it does a pretty good job at representing that progress in, you know, a movement like suffrage isn't always perfect.

[3:30] Brianna: And I think, you know, any time that you look back at progress that has been made, it was always made by imperfect people in their specific context.

[3:38] Brianna: I think it does a really good job of acknowledging the contributions of black suffragettes like Ida B. Wells, um, and recognizing that they were also fighting for their own movement, but still largely iced out of what the prominent suffragettes were doing in their day.

[3:56] Brianna: I think there could have been maybe a little bit more on the contributions of those women, in my own opinion.

[4:02] Brianna: Um, I think there were some slight, if I had to have some critique, I would say there are some times where it does feel slightly pandering to me as a, in particular as a white woman.

[4:12] Brianna: Um, but I think overall, um, I appreciate it for what it is.

[4:17] Brianna: I think in the same way as like Hamilton or Evita, like you have to sometimes oversimplify things or make things convenient to tell a cohesive story.

[4:27] Brianna: Um, and the truth is like you'll never, if you're being very um faithful to actual history, that will never be the case because history is always super complicated and inconvenient.

[4:38] Brianna: Um, so I think with all of that in mind, um, I did really enjoy it.

[4:43] Brianna: And I think something that we've talked about that I really appreciated is the overall message sort of at the end, which is like there is still always so much more work to do, and there is always the next thing, and there is always injustice, um, which is so, so, so true.

[5:02] Brianna: So, so, so relevant today.

[5:04] Brianna: So yeah, that's my general opinion.

[5:07] Miranda Moffitt: Um, understandable, and I get what you mean about the pandering.

[5:10] Miranda Moffitt: I I've coined these as now every musical wants to have seven immigrants, we get the job done moments where we stop and let the audience applaud us because we're all progressives.

[5:20] Miranda Moffitt: Um, it didn't take me out of it too, too much.

[5:22] Miranda Moffitt: Um, I take it you don't, you really didn't know who Shaina Taub's was before this.

[5:27] Brianna: No, no, I did not.

[5:28] Brianna: Shaina Taub's is someone that has been in this industry in the background and really kind of, I don't want to say taking her pains, but it felt that way.

[5:39] Brianna: Like one of the first things I remember clocking her in, there was a vaudeville show with Bill Irwin and his partner, and you know Bill Irwin as the clown from um Mr. Noodle from Elmo, he was the dad in the Grinch, and he does clowning.

[5:54] Brianna: And he would just go on stage, do a bit, and then we'd have Shaina Taub's on the piano, and she'd sing a goofy little song, and then they do more bits, and then she'd sing a goofy little song.

[6:05] Brianna: Um, and then she moved up to doing Shakespeare adaptations, uh, funded by the Public Theater.

[6:11] Brianna: She did As You Like It and Twelfth Night, but two versions of Twelfth Night.

[6:15] Brianna: I have been a big fan of her Twelfth Night.

[6:18] Brianna: I have been a defender of it.

[6:19] Brianna: I think it is wonderful, goofy, funny, and all the things that she brings.

[6:24] Brianna: She's so good at the bouncy stuff.

[6:26] Brianna: And then she had an unfortunate uh collaboration with Elton John, where she did the lyrics for uh the Devil Wears Prada musical in London that was reviled by critics.

[6:38] Brianna: Elton John has not had good luck on Broadway unless it's The Lion King.

[6:42] Brianna: Um, and then this is kind of like her big step into the big leagues, and she had to bring her A game, and I think it kind of goes to show that as far as women in this industry, they have to be exceptional enough to both write every word, every note, and then star in it.

[6:59] Brianna: Which is rare enough for any individual.

[7:01] Brianna: I'm pretty, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know of any other female writers than I know we have the Lin-Manuel Mirandas and Dave Malloys of the world.

[7:08] Brianna: But Sara Bareilles.

[7:10] Brianna: So her and Sara Bareilles are in the same world.

[7:12] Brianna: Um, and I just am completely and utterly impressed.

[7:17] Brianna: Um, I was talking to uh Miranda briefly about it, like how on the surface, if you actually kind of listen to the songs and just feel what it is, is very rah-rah.

[7:26] Brianna: Yeah, we did it.

[7:28] Brianna: What way to go, girls.

[7:29] Brianna: But if you actually pay attention to the themes, it is one of the most depressing and kind of daunting realistic and horrific messages I've ever left.

[7:40] Brianna: A musical feeling.

[7:42] Brianna: Basically, it's like, yeah, we did a thing, but we even when I die, it will not be enough.

[7:48] Brianna: The message is it will never be enough.

[7:51] Brianna: But we keep marching, I guess, because we have to, and it truly left me with this gut punch of like it was not this thrilling like success story.

[8:01] Brianna: It was really this, it will never be enough, I will eventually be replaced, and I will fall into the same mistakes that my elders fell into before me, and this is a repeating pattern forever, and that is horrific to think about.

[8:15] Brianna: And I really appreciate a show that in theory is supposed to be a fun, goofy romp about history in the same way Hamilton is, and it has such a weirdly myopic ending.

[8:27] Miranda Moffitt: It does.

[8:28] Miranda Moffitt: Um, and I agree with you.

[8:30] Miranda Moffitt: I could not tell you whether or not that historical relationship between Alice Paul, who is the main, who's like the protagonist of the show.

[8:37] Miranda Moffitt: Um, and I can't remember who the older lady's name was.

[8:40] Miranda Moffitt: Let me see.

[8:42] Miranda Moffitt: Yeah, I think it was Carrie.

[8:44] Miranda Moffitt: Um, let's see.

[8:45] Miranda Moffitt: Yes, Carrie uh Chapman Catt, who is basically the representation of the old guard of the movement who is trying to, you know, lead things a certain way that worked for them and trying to do things steady and slow, whereas Alice Paul is coming in as a figure who is speaking from a younger generation who has a lot of vitality and wants to get this done now.

[9:05] Miranda Moffitt: They're tired of waiting.

[9:07] Miranda Moffitt: And that is like the push and pull that always exists in human rights movements and equality movements in general.

[9:14] Miranda Moffitt: There's both the feeling of like you can't get everything done all at once, and also like we've waited long enough.

[9:21] Miranda Moffitt: Like if not now, then when, if not me, then who?

[9:25] Miranda Moffitt: So I think like it does show the push and pull.

[9:28] Miranda Moffitt: And then, as Jess said, kind of at the end where you see Alice Paul being confronted by like, I think it's set in probably the 60s or 70s, um, whenever Nixon was banging about.

[9:38] Miranda Moffitt: And um, seeing that she has now become what was the word they use, the old, old crony or buddy duddy.

[9:44] Miranda Moffitt: Some things, some kind of fun turn of phrase. Um, I could not tell you whether or not that is an actual historical relationship that exists between Alice Paul and Carrie Chapman Catt. Um, but I think, like I said, for the purposes of this, you kind of have to simplify history to make everything make sense together. Um, I think for me in particular, I also appreciated the fact that it's exploring the inherent fear that women have also, like those two, the sort of again, the dichotomy between Alice and Carrie, um, and those characters' views on how those movements should go and move, where there's still that underlying fear of being perceived as dangerous or a shrew or unfeminine or too much or too complex.

[10:34] Miranda Moffitt: And I think that idea is pretty well represented, and like having to make a choice between having the things that are traditionally there for you, like getting married and having a family, or dedicating your life to a cause that really means something to you, and it's like the same thing women are facing today between like marriage and family or career and can you have it all. I think that that is um well played out, and I think that that's pretty interesting. I also love that it's an all-woman cast. Um, it's very like Shakespearean, and that the women are playing, you know, playing men. Um, I thought that that was very interesting. I really appreciated that.

[11:11] Miranda Moffitt: Also could not I could not verify the historical accuracy of some things that I really enjoyed, like Carrie, um, Carrie basically having a relationship with her friend. I don't know that that's historically accurate. I'm gonna tell you the facts, and you can tell me whether or not it is. So Carrie lived um with her husband. Her husband died, and then Molly Hay moved in with her, and they had a special relationship. And when Carrie died, she was chosen to be buried next to Molly, opposed to her husband. Read between the lines there, kiddos.

[11:47] Miranda Moffitt: Um, as far as the historical aspects, I kind of give this the same leeway that I give most historical musicals. Um, musicals are very hard to kind of get fact accurate uh because there is the element of heightened aspect. There is an argument that you know, since this is such an upbeat musical that the more horrific elements like the force feeding and the hunger strike do kind of come off a little darker because of it, which I kind of appreciate. I kind of like the tunnel jump, especially because there's an expectation of that in the second act of a musical and it happens right away. So I can imagine other people might have that issue.

[12:30] Miranda Moffitt: Um, but I did not feel that um personally. I also want to highlight um I th what was her name? In S Maholland, um, who I believe was played by um Brandy Port or Monica Tullia Ramirez. My god, what a performance. And for all one act, basically uh act and a half kind of character. She stole the entire show. She was such a showstopper, and anytime she was on stage, she was bringing the A game. Um truly probably my her and the young lady that played Woodrow Wilson, my top two MVPs of the night.

[13:10] Brianna: I everyone did a great job, but those are the ones that really really struck it out of the park for me.

[13:15] Miranda Moffitt: I would agree. Um, one of the things I do remember from you know history is that image of Inez Milholland on on the horse during during the march, which I think was in 1913, if I'm not mistaken. Um, that that was particularly moving. Um, that whole sequence, um, and also like the sequences at the end, like as we talked about that sort of wrap up the idea of like there was always still more work to do.

[13:42] Miranda Moffitt: Um, I also loved I cannot remember what her name was um that played the Polish um I guess it Ruza, I think Ruza was the name of the character, played by it looks like Joyce. Um, I also loved her character, and I love that there were like those slight fourth wall breaks when the actors were telling you, like, this is actually what happened. Like, there's a couple moments where, like, for example, Ruse's character, I'm pretty sure that's her character, um, like basically is like, I'm gonna go off. I was a factory worker and an immigrant, and I've been in the suffragette movement, and now I'm gonna go be an actor on the Broadway stage.

[14:17] Miranda Moffitt: And the actor's like, and that's actually what she historically did next. And she died at like 44. She was like a young woman when she died. That's ridiculous. That that is ridiculous. I didn't know that. Um, but yeah, there is a couple moments where the actors will call out, like, hey, this is this is actually what this person said. Isn't that ridiculous? Which isn't it ridiculous.

[14:35] Miranda Moffitt: Um, I think also one of the things that I uh one of the sequences that I particularly loved um was uh Woodrow Wilson's uh chief of staff. I can't remember what the character's name was. It was uh oh, Dudley Malone. Um Dudley Malone and then the other young lady um who like fall in love in the process of of that whole thing, and that like if we were married sequence, um, when they're talking when she's basically um doing a fun, it's it's very Hamilton in that way where the you're telling really horrific things in a really fun and upbeat jaunty way, where she's talking about like, yeah, it's beautiful. If we were married, we'd love each other forever, and also I'd technically be your property and could never have money of my own, and all my kids would be considered your property as well.

[15:19] Miranda Moffitt: Like, I think that um that mixing of the incredibly serious and heinous parts of history with something kind of um upbeat in almost a satirical way was another aspect that I really enjoyed. And that is all historically crude. Um uh Dudley Dudley Field Malone did marry um Doris Stevens, and Dora Stevens was the person that wrote all the books about why we know these stories. She did keep the record. This is accurate.

[15:50] Miranda Moffitt: Um, her book was also adapted into a film I had to watch in APUS history called Iron Jawed Angels that tells the same story. It stars uh Hillary Swank, so much worse. Shaina Taub's had the decency to know that we did not need a scene of Alice Paul masturbating in a bathtub to imply heterosexuality. I really appreciated how this was such through a female eyes and telling the story in such an economic, effective, always fun, always audience first, but always with history in mind.

[16:28] Miranda Moffitt: I cannot sing enough praises of this show. Go see it, guys.

[16:33] Brianna: I agree. Um, I think if you just if you like musicals in general, or if you're a history buff like myself, like I said, I you know, Jesse's over here doing some uh on-demand research to check the historical accuracy, but there's always gonna be you know things that are a little tampered with and in adaptations. But so far it seems like a lot of it is is correct, which I really love.

[16:54] Brianna: I appreciate the specificity, and I like um I like history, so I like that it's accurate. Um I also really enjoyed it. I was really moved by it, I had really complicated feelings about it, which I think is always a testament to the complexity and the well-doneness of something, is having a lot of thoughts about it, so I would agree.

[17:15] Miranda Moffitt: I would say go see it. And what is your cheese rating, Miranda? What kind of cheese can encapsulate the suffering and triumph of the early suffrage movement in the United States?

[17:29] Miranda Moffitt: What a great question. I don't know. What's yours?

[17:32] Brianna: Um I'm gonna give it cheddar or munster, because that was what Susan B. Anthony allegedly despised the most, according to the movie Iron Jawed Angels.

[17:42] Miranda Moffitt: Good lord. Um yeah, Susan B. Anthony. God, that's another um really contested historical figure. Um let's see. What would be like a classic? Like a classic cheese, a classic Americana cheese.

[18:00] Miranda Moffitt: I wonder if Velveeta existed at that point. That feels like a very 1950s thing, like canned cheese. Um, I don't know, man. I'll have to get back to you on that.

[18:09] Brianna: I'll agree with your can take the other one.

[18:12] Miranda Moffitt: Yeah, we'll mutually agree on cheddar and munster cheeses for this. Um, if you can go check out Suffs at the Fisher Theater.

[18:22] Miranda Moffitt: It is a true blue Broadway musical. I cannot tell you how grateful I was that there wasn't just a random guitar moaning. Uh with respect to people that love those rock ballads. I was just so glad that I got proper show tunes. Proper show tunes on a Broadway show.

[18:40] Brianna: I've missed you so much. And our next show that we will be seeing is the one, the only Hamilton, which will be playing at the Fisher Theater from April 29th to May 17th.

[18:52] Miranda Moffitt: Um, if you want to hear our thoughts on that, oh my god, it's playing for nearly a month.

[18:56] Brianna: Yeah, you have a lot of opportunities to see Hamilton, so go take that opportunity.

[19:00] Miranda Moffitt: But first, see Suffs.

[19:01] Brianna: Go see Suffs like five times.

[19:03] Miranda Moffitt: Um, thank you very much, Miranda, for joining us. I hope you had a good time.

[19:07] Miranda Moffitt: I did too. I had a great time, and if you go see Suffs, I think you will too.

[19:11] Brianna: All right, and we will see you next time on Theatre in the D.