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[0:00] Matt Rodin: Hey, thank you for hitting play. Welcome to The Come Up. My name is Matt. And on this episode, a really fun and inspiring conversation with Constantine Rousouli and Carrie St. Louis about, amongst other things, the hit Off-Broadway production of TITANIQUE. And for some context, this is how the show describes itself on the website. When the music of Celine Dion makes sweet Canadian love with the 11-time Oscar-winning film Titanic, you get TITANIQUE, a musical celebration that turns one of the greatest love stories of all time into a hysterical and joyful sleigh fest. And I can confirm that it is both hysterical and a sleigh fest. I have not had this much fun at a show in a very long time. And I was so excited to get to chat with Constantine because he's one of the creators and writers of the show.

He's been in the business for a very long time. And Carrie, because she recently joined the company of TITANIQUE, so she has a fresh perspective, and she's also worked so much in New York and owns her own very successful vocal studio. So I knew this conversation would not only be fun, but that we'd probably get into some nitty-gritty deep woo stuff that would be inspiring, and it was all that and more.

[1:55] Carrie St. Louis: Yes.

[1:55] Constantine Rousouli: Like it's a bit of a tiny thing.

[1:58] Carrie St. Louis: Mercedes was tiny.

[1:58] Constantine Rousouli: Right. Did you carry? Did you see it in Midtown?

[2:01] Carrie St. Louis: I did, yeah. I saw opening night. I actually ended up doing three shows at the asylum. But we just didn't tell anybody. We just didn't like announce it. So I just did three shows and then came back and opened the door ros. So I got to experience a little bit of the magic in that space.

[2:20] Constantine Rousouli: I guess, well, you had been, you're like part of the fam, kind of, right?

[2:25] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah.

[2:25] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah.

[2:26] Carrie St. Louis: She's a stalker.

[2:27] Constantine Rousouli: She's a stalker.

[2:29] Carrie St. Louis: Creep.

[2:29] Constantine Rousouli: She's a stage door Johnny. I'd seen all of the iterations of it, and like everyone else fell in love with the show, and you know, Connie and I are such good friends that I was sort of like, it was like, when it's when it becomes the right time, hopefully we'll get to do this together. So and what is what forgive me, but like what is the origin story of the show, Constantine? What's the what's what's the gag?

[2:53] Constantine Rousouli: The gag is it is almost it it's been 84 years. Um it's been seven years since the like conception of this crazy chaotic show. We were at a bar in LA doing dinner theater at Rockwell, table and stage.

[3:11] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, yeah.

[3:12] Constantine Rousouli: What were you guys doing?

[3:13] Carrie St. Louis: We were doing Scream.

[3:14] Constantine Rousouli: It was a parody of Scream.

[3:17] Carrie St. Louis: Right.

[3:17] Constantine Rousouli: That was trash garbage. And wait, and just uh you guys were doing a lot of these. Like this was like a thing that was going on.

[3:23] Carrie St. Louis: This was a thing in LA, yeah.

[3:25] Constantine Rousouli: You take like movies, and you either, you know, throw them on stage in this like immersive, weird dinner theater, um either make it a parody, or we did these other versions of the show, which was like Baz Lerman, but this was a different company. So it was like really cool. Like it was kind of new age of like, what's LA gonna do for theater? Because there's no theater there, but to like, you know, mix in the movie like world in LA to live theater, people then started coming and being like, Oh, this is that's interesting, right?

[3:55] Carrie St. Louis: I just think there's no theater now.

[3:57] Constantine Rousouli: Right. Yeah, it's a movie town.

[3:58] Carrie St. Louis: Right.

[3:59] Constantine Rousouli: So we started doing these parody shows. Um, and I'm looking around at all of these people that are ex-Broadway veterans and on my friends, and I'm like, wow, we have to write our own shit because this show right now, or whatever we're doing, I was like, we need it, we can make this better or funnier, or just like write our own stuff. And I was wasted at a bar with a martini, and I was like, after our scream show, and I'm just like, hey, you know what the next thing is gonna be uh it's gonna be Titanic, Celine, Marla, you're gonna play Celine, I'm gonna be Jack, Alex, you're gonna be Rose, and I think it's gonna work. And everyone's like, no, they're like, no, queen, never gonna happen. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show you.

So I went home that night and I did an outline. And I it miraculously, all of her songs from her catalog fit with like the storyline of Titanic the movie. And I was like, am I a fucking genius? Am I a genius? And then I was like, can everybody come over and watch the movie just so I know that I'm a fucking genius? Um, and it it they Ty came over our director, and then Marla, and then Nicholas Connell, our musical director. Yeah, and we all watched the movie, and it was like, we were like, oh shit, this actually works. It kind of works. So then we started, then we took it into three little parts like Ty did the beginning, I did the middle, and then Marla did the end, and we would have writers sessions every week.

And they would come over and we'd like would get a cast together and we just read through stuff that we've that we've written, and then we'd go back and go into our little our little homes and our little huts, and we just write, and then we'd do it again the next week.

[5:30] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah.

[5:31] Constantine Rousouli: And was the same because you guys hadn't you guys didn't write Cruel, did you?

[5:35] Carrie St. Louis: No.

[5:36] Constantine Rousouli: Like okay.

[5:37] Carrie St. Louis: That was like a in it.

[5:38] Constantine Rousouli: That was that a Rockwell like transfer.

[5:41] Carrie St. Louis: It was a Rockwell original transfer.

[5:43] Constantine Rousouli: Okay. So okay, so you guys had been a part of those, and then obviously we're like, okay, it's time for us to like take ownership of something. Carrie, what were you gonna say?

[5:50] Carrie St. Louis: I was just gonna say that I think like Cruel Intentions was kind of the first like trial run of that style of a musical in New York.

[5:59] Constantine Rousouli: In New York, right?

[6:00] Carrie St. Louis: And like, yeah, and our producer for TITANIQUE, Eva Price is the same producer from Cruel Intentions. So I think it was like that was sort of figuring out if it worked, and surprise it worked. Like people loved it and found it to be so fun. And so I'd be like, this just takes it up a notch, though, because this feels way more like a show. Cruel Intentions was more like a concert presentation type bar. Like you sat at tables and had a string. It was a little, it was just a different sort of style. This now, especially in the dock, feels much more like a show.

[6:34] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[6:35] Carrie St. Louis: This is like a full production, like go for it. And it's not just the movie, like there's like there is a cut, like there's a concept, like there's the you know what I mean? Like the Celine edition is is such a weird, crazy, like right.

[6:52] Constantine Rousouli: Like, I literally was like, how is this gonna make sense? And like it does, and it doesn't make sense, and it's that's the whole point. And that's the whole point because she's so kooky and weird in real life, and such they just flies by the seat of her pants. And I'm like, this is the perfect narrator of a show like this, because you can get away with murder, and you're still gonna just be like charmed and in love with the character of Celine Dion because she is truly just like that.

[7:20] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, and you really do get away with murder. Like it is absolute instantly. It is like I said, it is unhinged chaos.

[7:24] Constantine Rousouli: Unhinged chaos.

[7:28] Carrie St. Louis: But I think it's so funny because like at the beginning, right when we come out, like at the beginning, you know, it's we're in front of like I feel like in the way it starts, people are like, oh hee he, like you know, Marla gets introduced, and people are like, wow, this is funny. And I I always like in my head have this moment where I'm like, they have no idea where we're gonna end up. Like by the end, people's faces are just like gooped and gagged. But it really does feel that way. Like you really like, you know, it it goes further and further off the rails as the show goes on. And yet it still makes perfect sense at the end.

[8:02] Constantine Rousouli: Well, it's yeah, and honestly, like I think there was another show that I I was thinking about this. It you you you just kind of buy into the to the non-reality. You're just like, it doesn't really matter. Like it's it's like it's like a fever dream. Right. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter, it's like it's fun, it's stupid, it's and stupid. It's it's everything that you remember from the movie, plus Celine Dion plus pop like culture, and we change it truly every single night. Like Marla's improv that she does, if you remember when we go downstairs to the steerage, is completely different every single night. She's never done the same story twice, never done the same story twice.

[8:43] Carrie St. Louis: You're come on, not not in the run.

[8:49] Constantine Rousouli: Every single night. It's crazy. Different. It is a masterclass. She's a masterclass in improv.

[8:55] Carrie St. Louis: It's really and that I mean, that was my favorite moment of the entire show. Was the story that she told, which like I I which one was it? I don't even remember.

[9:03] Constantine Rousouli: We don't even know because it was very long.

[9:07] Carrie St. Louis: So it was not that was in there, but the story she tells is that you took an edible when you went and saw Sister Act.

[9:16] Constantine Rousouli: This is very true.

[9:17] Carrie St. Louis: That you saw Sister Act.

[9:19] Constantine Rousouli: She gave stories about people like I slept through the whole show. I I said fabulous baby, and I was like, we're a queen, yes, Katina. Uh then Dead of Human for two and a half hours. Miss Marla's complete 11 o'clock number. I went to C C D C. Yeah, she's C D C G's. Wailing G's. I wake up to that fucking Virgin Mary disco ball that is the size of the theater. And I am so spooked that I'm like, what the fuck am I tripping on? That I wake up to a Virgin Mary disco ball with them with like mini mice meow mixing, screaming their tits off, and that's what I woke up from. It was a it was a nightmare, but also a dream and a gem.

[10:03] Carrie St. Louis: She also said that you thought she was annoying at the time.

[10:06] Constantine Rousouli: Did you um did you know each other? Like, did you know her?

[10:11] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, we ran in the same circle back in the day. And um, I was always just like, she's so cold. I hate her.

[10:19] Constantine Rousouli: And she was like, she's so basic, and I hate him.

[10:22] Carrie St. Louis: Um until we moved to LA, and then we started doing these shows together. And I was like, hmm. I think I like you.

[10:29] Constantine Rousouli: Oh, why did you give us now like why did you why did you move to LA? Like, what's the story?

[10:33] Carrie St. Louis: Um, I had to get out of here. I had to, it was I was doing, I think I was burnt out. I was um I had just finished Wicked. I was went back to Ghost. I went to do Ghost, went back to Wicked after, and then I was just like, I I hit a wall and I was like, I can't just keep jumping from show to show to show. Um I was like, I need to get out of here and go see the world and like get out of the city for a second. It was just all I knew from musical theater was like 10 years of musical theater from tour to Broadway, and I was just like, I need real life. I have no real life. I don't even know what people are I need to get out of here. So I had a manager at the time who was like, if you you know need want to do this, he's like, You need to do this now.

He's like, You're 24, you need to go. And I was like, okay. So I put my notice in at Wicked, and I was like, I'm moving in LA and I'm never looking back. And I was there for 10 years until this until this, which and and I I think and we'll we'll come back around, but I I'm curious to know, like, obviously, you clearly wanted to do musical theater. And Carrie, this goes for you too. Like, you both had an interest in musical theater. You get on Broadway, that's quote unquote dream come true, right? Like that's that is the that is the pinnacle. That is the thing. And then you're there and you're like feeling. This is hard. This is it's a job. Like it's eight times a week. It's a lot of work, and you're feeling like I I can't, I don't, I don't even want to do this anymore. Was that the same thing?

[11:58] Carrie St. Louis: I did a similar thing to Connie. I moved out to LA. I did the exact same thing. I think after 10 years of like eight shows a week straight, I just kind of was like, I gotta, I gotta go. And it's learning your your limits too, and being like, before I, you know, get too burnt out or start to dislike this thing, this you know, dream that I've always had, and it's something that you love, but it is work at the end of the day, and like it's a lifestyle too. That's I think as you get older, like eight shows a week only having a Monday night off is very difficult to have a life in general. Um, and so I have a vocal uh studio, so I was like, let me just go out to LA for a couple months, just focus on that, do that, and then three months turned into six months because I wasn't ready to come back to New York, and then the world shut down. So it ended up being about like two and a half years that I was in LA.

[12:48] Constantine Rousouli: Which honestly before coming back.

[12:51] Carrie St. Louis: We were we lived we were neighbors five blocks.

[12:54] Constantine Rousouli: We live five blocks from each other in LA.

[12:55] Carrie St. Louis: So we would go for walks every single day.

[12:57] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[12:59] Matt Rodin: And did you guys ever like see yourselves coming back? Like, did you think you would like to be able to do that?

[13:03] Constantine Rousouli: Connie knew he was coming back for TITANIQUE.

[13:14] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, I always like New York is always like I've I'm from Jersey, so like the East Coast is totally home for me. But I just knew something in my gut, I just wasn't ready at the time to like come back to New York or to come back to this business. And I had a Matt Lenz who's a you know big director, he's like the associate on Hairspray, and he was my mentor, like growing up in this business, and he had told me he was like, the second you start, like Carrie said, regretting and second guessing the thing that you love so much, it's time for you to take a step back and leave. And so you can see the big picture and not be that person, not be that person who's stuck in a show for 10 years, being miserable, who like yeah just regrets every decision they ever made and hates the thing that they love.

You don't do your best work like that. You're just it just it bleeds in to like your performing, and so I was like, it's gotta be the exact right thing to take me back into that schedule and that life. And then Connie was like, gross. And I was like, oh okay, it's the exact right thing. I'll do it.

[14:18] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah. I told myself I always wanted to come back to New York, especially in this business, because I was so burnt out from it, and you know, the politics of it all. And yeah, um, I had a you know, it's it was amazing. I had such a great career at like at such a young age. Um, and then it, you know, it started just like then you get get pigeonheld in a little box, and you're like, okay, well, I don't want to just be seen as this. I there's more that I can do, and I really want to do more, and I just don't want to, you know, come back and forth to show to show to show to show. So I said, the only way I'll come back is on my own terms. And I I don't know, didn't know what that meant at the time, but it was so crazy.

I was just so adamant. I was like, I'm only coming back to New York or come back coming back to the musical theater business on my own terms. If I can make the rules, I will come back. But I'm not doing this bullshit of, you know, kissing this person's ass and you know, uh swinging for this show and um being the standby for the exhausting.

[15:09] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah.

[15:10] Carrie St. Louis: And I was like, I I don't want my left foot on, you know, stage right uh on four. And I don't want my taint to be on five. I I and I don't want to, you know, put the spin on the seven. Like, okay, we're we're human. I don't want to be a fucking robot. And we we've been robots for so long that I'm like, okay, who do who are we? Who am I as a performer? Who am I as a creator? I need to put my own shit. That's why with this show, I feel like it is it is pure chaos, but it is everybody's individual sense of self that they bring to this this theater and bring to the show that you know, we color it within the box, but I I want to make people happy and come to work and give your best performance. And what key do you want it in?

And how do you, you know, yeah, which you've every night. You feel it in the audience. Like you've it's like you. I mean, that's what I say. Like, you can tell that you guys are having a good time. You know what I mean? Like you can tell that you guys were gonna be there. The best time.

[16:03] Constantine Rousouli: Right. Because there's no it's not you're not rolling.

[16:07] Carrie St. Louis: Right. There's no person over you being like, hey, Carrie, you didn't hit that C tonight. Um look, I uh and then they put you in your head, and then you're a fucking psycho, and you're like, wait, we're performers, we're supposed to have fun. Like this shouldn't be that difficult. And it makes, you know, the mental illness of it all of musical theater, yes, you know, growing up in the business has been, you know, it makes you crazy. And when you don't take a step back to realize it's just musical theater, people get you know, they they don't grow. No one grows as a human. So I was like, all right, I gotta take a break. It's also burnt out. It's also like a with this cast specifically, it's so much like everyone is so good at what they do that it is so much of an ensemble piece.

[16:50] Constantine Rousouli: And like the timing of it, like, yes, it's like, yes, it's so dumb. And the humor, like you look at it and you're like, oh my god, it's just like a fever dream, but it's so specific as well. And like you everyone has to be on the same page to like make it work and fire. And like I just feel it's like a trust thing, and we all trust each other to like play our part and do our thing and like be a part of the community and or like the ensemble of it all. And like I had this moment, I think I was telling Connie this last night. I had this moment the other night where when we all face out um at the very end, the finale for um Heart Will Go On. It's just like we're it's it almost feels like back to the day of like a rag tag bunch, like a troop of actors.

Like we don't change costumes, and we're all standing there and we all just face out, and it's like we've done this whole like nobody really leaves the stage for two hours straight, and we're just like telling this story, and we have this moment where we're all together singing together in this like piece that we presented, and it's it's so special. Like there's something so magical about it in that it's just so simple at the end of the day. It's just us getting together to tell you a story, and you're along for the ride, and we're having just as much fun as you are, you know.

[18:03] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah. So it's I don't know. Yeah, it's very I love the honestly with the simplicity of the show. I mean, granted, it's a set of, you know, whatever. But one costume, we don't create, we don't have a lot of props. The props that come out are, you know, gaggy props. But it's it's I think it's giving audiences more of a sense to, you know, imagine and have the sense of wow, what am I going through? What do I remember from this movie? Because like if we had an actual boat on stage, it would take away from the magic of it all. And like we're giving people, the audiences, moments to think and be smart again and watch theater and like make up their own minds. And I think, you know, with a lot of shit that's out there, it's like so extravagant sometimes when you're like, I have this $55 million set that is giving me like a fucking seizure, but like, can we just go back to actually telling a story?

[19:03] Constantine Rousouli: So like it's so much just to hear oh, you're preaching you're preaching to the choir. I saw I saw I saw a seizure-inducing uh quite literally a jukebox on the stage at the top of the show. Um yeah, on the day before I saw your show, and it was really it it was so interesting to to see like that and your show back to back because it it and we even said like I don't know remember I cannot tell you the last time I saw the movie Titanic. Like I I don't even know. But you don't need it doesn't you you remember the things that you need to remember you know.

[19:40] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah. Um and like it's the same some people haven't even seen it and they don't even really need it like I don't need it. There's the Selene isms there's like something for everyone I have found like all my friends and people that come like it's like doesn't matter if you're gay, if you're straight, if you're like a theater person, if you're a Celine fan, if you've seen the movie like every if you know what RuPaul's drag race is like people get so much out of it regardless and they'll be like oh I didn't even know that that one reference but like you know it's still entertaining and it still works in a way.

[20:13] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah. We bombard you no it is oh yeah like it is when a fever dream is a really good way of putting it like it just like bang bang bang. And listen that was like yes I didn't stop I mean we did not stop laughing for the it's it really is that and thank you. It does feel like I think you said like that's kind of um like it is young and scrappy and hungry. It's very like you guys could do it could be you could you could have done that in a studio at Pearl and it would have had the same exact effect as it does on stage. You don't need the lights you don't need like the big and you and it doesn't it doesn't have all that like it's not flair but it's just so refreshing to see something like that because that's the kind of stuff that I really connect to and I imagine like we're when you built it was that the was that the intention that like it didn't need all that extra stuff.

[21:04] Constantine Rousouli: We have said it to this day. Um, we even were very hesitant about when they said we're building a the set that looks like a like a ship a little bit, a boat, and I was like because in the asylum, it was very much black box, dark, sexy, immersive. We would running around the the theater, and it really works like that. And then we were shocked to see that it worked with the set too. Granted, the set's not crazy elaborate, nothing moves, it's just it looks like anything goes. So you're like, cool. I was I was waiting for the joke the whole night. Well, because when they did that, we were like, okay, we need a joke for this because it literally is a is a white boat. It looks it's the non-equity, it's the non-equity anything goes.

[21:51] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, yeah.

[21:52] Constantine Rousouli: And it's, you know, and it works in the in its campy little rich self. But we always had said, I said, I don't want to replicate anything that looks like the boat, like really hardcore boat, like the Titanic or elaborate set pieces that move on. It needs to be highs and low, high lowbrow, and mix everything up. It you the the comedy comes with like the paper mache set pieces or the paper props.

[22:21] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, or the elaborate but make the costumes and lighting so fucking fierce that and the vocals that people are like, because people lose their minds when they come because they're like, oh, this is gonna be campy and fun, and then wild, and everybody sings their faces off. And Nicholas, Nicholas, who has done the arrangements are so elaborate and so crazy that people are it's like a Celine concert meets SNL, and people are don't know what to do with themselves. So I think that in our sense, that's that's our brand. It's very like garbage meets beautiful.

[22:59] Constantine Rousouli: It's like elevated, elevated.

[23:03] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, gorgeous garbage. Like it and it really like I'm so glad that you could say that and like understand because I mean hand sound, we say it all the time. Yeah, that's our brand.

[23:14] Constantine Rousouli: Eyebrow lowbrow. Did you guys like did you want to like had you written anything before? Did you want to be creating stuff? Had you like were you writing?

[23:22] Carrie St. Louis: No. I was never considered myself a writer. If this was an idea that I just happened to feel very strongly and passionate about that I went home, a couple martinis will do that.

[23:34] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah.

[23:34] Carrie St. Louis: A couple martinis. He's the new Lynn Manuel Miranda.

[23:37] Constantine Rousouli: It just came to him and then.

[23:43] Carrie St. Louis: I've gotta tell it. Who lives, who dies, who tells your story.

[23:46] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, it was divide intervention, universe, Jesus, Buddha, Barney, whoever the fuck is upstairs, like channeled through my ass, and I was like, okay, I'm gonna write this bitch. And then you know, uh Ty and Marla came in, and we all were like, This is crazy. This actually works. And we we all fucking, you know, came together as a team and wrote this shit. And I never in a million years would have said, hi, I'm gonna write a musical that's gonna be a you know, a fun hit in New York City. So never in a million years.

[24:20] Carrie St. Louis: But now Carrie, like, was this like was this kind of thing ever on your radar at all? Like it was you know, I mean, imagine going from Glinda to this is well, yeah, but in a way, cruel Intentions was a little bit glorious garbage as well. I don't know, this sort of niche, and I also I might of Ages probably debut as Rock of Ages.

[24:40] Constantine Rousouli: So the first show I ever did was Rock of Ages, which is interesting.

[24:45] Carrie St. Louis: I honestly feel like Rose is like such a similar track to Sherry, in that I don't leave the stage for two hours. It's like wailing at the top of my lungs, but also like kind of comedic, but also still kind of the straight man in a situation.

[25:00] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah.

[25:01] Carrie St. Louis: With everyone else kind of being crazy around.

[25:04] Constantine Rousouli: So it feels very similar.

[25:06] Carrie St. Louis: I'm just 10 years older now. Rock of Ages is sort of in this vein, but it's it's it's a little bit it's a little bit more um commercialized, I guess is maybe the word I'm looking for. Like it's it's it's not quite as campy.

[25:21] Constantine Rousouli: I mean, it is campy, but it's not quite as campy.

[25:24] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah. It's just a different, it's a different type of comedy. I've it's like it's like we are playing, we're like break the fourth wall, but then we kind of like we toe that line really well. And I think it's just a and you never take it too seriously.

[25:40] Constantine Rousouli: Never.

[25:41] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, never mind. But it's a it's a bit it's so stylized. It's really stylized, and it is like yeah, I think maybe Rock of Ages they're just stylized in different ways, but very similar in like the way the show works and moves and the audiences it draws in, and like I don't know, people just attach to it because it's just you get to come and just laugh your ass off, and there's no it's not stuffy, it's not like oh, I have to go through some emotional i it's just fun. It's just pure fun. And I feel like these days it's like that's all anybody really wants.

[26:15] Carrie St. Louis: It's just like, let me just laugh at how stupid and ridiculous and like all these pop culture references.

[26:22] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, that's the first thing I've seen in a long time that I've been like, I can't wait to go back. You know what I mean? Like, I wanna, I'm I want to see it again because it's just fun.

[26:32] Carrie St. Louis: Oh, good. Yeah, you know, and also you want to bring people. When I when I saw it, I was like, I've got to bring, I was like, oh god, okay, I've got to bring this person, this person, this person, and I need to go with them because I want to see their reactions to these things that happen.

[26:45] Constantine Rousouli: It's so the references are so modern. Maybe that's where it's different. Like Rock of Ages was like 80s references, so it was a little older of a generation or an audience. I think with this, like you get the Titanic fans, you get that generation, but you also get like there's so many pop culture references that are happening.

[27:06] Carrie St. Louis: And he's updating them, like it's updated constantly.

[27:09] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, are you on the Lotus?

[27:12] Carrie St. Louis: Oh, the White Lotus line is great.

[27:13] Constantine Rousouli: White Lotus, no Russell came who's a genius. He really is amazing. He came the next he came the next day after the season finale of White Lotus, and he was like, Hey, do you mind if I throw this in? And I was like, Yeah, what? And he was like, These gays are trying to murder me. And I was like, absolutely. It got a standing ovation.

[27:32] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, of course. He said it, and I was like, Oh, yes, I was like, perfect.

[27:38] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, exactly. Yes, of course.

[27:42] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, I feel like I like I I always with Marlon Ty and Nicholas, we always like to brand ourselves the anti-musical musical, which is like we don't follow the rules of what needs to be done. We're just like, Yeah, we're gonna change it.

[27:53] Constantine Rousouli: But I think that's so powerful though. I think that's so so so powerful because so many people feel like, and I I guess I'll I'll speak to my own experience. Because it's yes, because we're when you go to a school, it's so strict, it's this like elite club that you have to, you know, you have to somehow spenagle your way into, or someone has to welcome you in, and if you break the rules, then it's like you're out, you know.

[28:21] Carrie St. Louis: And if it's not, yeah, you know, and that's scary for a lot of people.

[28:25] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, and you can't be an individual. That's the sad part. It's like you can't like what happened to the days where it's like, would you tell Patti LuPone to not be Patti LuPone? Would you tell Bernadette Peters to not to be Bernadette fucking Peters, and you're like, wait, so I have to sit here and literally be a robot and do exactly what the person did before me, and there's no sense of, you know, my own self into this character, so that people can come back and see what I do. So then why go back to see a show? It's gonna be the same shit.

[28:58] Carrie St. Louis: I don't want to see, you know, the same shit over and over again. I want to be like, I want a new experience when I go see theater. I want to see this person do it.

[29:06] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, and the best stuff that I've seen is like the ones where I'm like, oh, this individual is bringing themselves to this thing. And I want to be clear, the thing we're talking about right now is like commercial theater, because that's primarily what it is, right? And New York is that that's what New York is. It's commercial theater, right? It's like regional theater in New York. Um, and they just want to make money. That's that's that is the goal, right?

[29:29] Carrie St. Louis: Um it was just so it's just so refreshing.

[29:44] Constantine Rousouli: So wait, are we like what's are we doing? Another one? Like what like are we working on another? Like, I mean, I know you're in the middle of the run, so it's like I'm sure you're like exhausted, but he's like tired. There's so much of it.

[30:00] Carrie St. Louis: Meanwhile, I'm like, I gotta go. Um yeah, I mean, there's definitely we've been there's there's there's some things that are in the realm of yeah of hopefully being cooked up, but like we'll really get to that when you know we take a break.

[30:16] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah. And I don't know when that's gonna be.

[30:21] Carrie St. Louis: Yes. That I I think uh I think hopefully the tour will come about soonish.

[30:27] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah. Um, you know, there's talks about everything. There's talks about you know uh, you know, London, Australia, you know, whatever. Like everything else, you know, I I would have in my life to, you know, as much as as it's how as it's doing so well off Broadway, I would love to see a version of this on Broadway one day.

[30:49] Carrie St. Louis: Hey, listen, they didn't think Disaster would come to Broadway, and my mom when I was telling her about it, she's like, is it like Disaster? And I was like, exactly. I was like, yeah, it it is stupid, fun, and yeah, it's one of those things.

[31:05] Constantine Rousouli: Definitely for that. We don't have to always have, you know, I I call them woke-sicles. We don't have to have a woke circle where it's gonna teach you exactly what to do. And I'm like, oh cool, but there's room for everything, and there's and I I not that I hate, but like it makes me, you know, a little bit annoyed when people are like, oh, you're just a parody musical. And it's like, yeah, sure, but it's also comedy is way harder than a dramatic piece.

[31:35] Carrie St. Louis: Oh no.

[31:36] Constantine Rousouli: So it's yes, it's more of a formula. And it's more if it's smart and if it's like something that that is non-stop and it's really funny, that that to me is also is also high art. So don't I I don't like when people put us in the box like, oh, you're just a stupid little parody show. I'm like, well, come to see it. It's not that, yeah.

[31:55] Carrie St. Louis: But I think that's why when people come by the end, they're just like they're I mean, so many of my Broadway friends are like, it's so dumb, but it's so funny and it's so smart, and then you guys sing like the singing alone is just so like out of this world from every member of the cast that you just leave being like, wait, this is not just some off Broadway parody musical. Like it's very, I don't know.

[32:20] Constantine Rousouli: The cast is incredible as well. The cast is incredible. I mean, there's just there's a reason there's a there's a need for this type of genre and this type of musical. It's like it's like I always go back to SNL because like I I love feeling like that because it's it's a good thing.

[32:35] Carrie St. Louis: We compare it to that too.

[32:36] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, it is that we compare it to that. And it's like SNL wins the fucking Emmy every year, every single year. So you're gonna tell me that's not high art, or that's not that doesn't deserve an Emmy because it's stupid and they're fun and they're they're just you know making up dumb characters. It's the same thing.

[32:52] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, so it's like I would, you know, I just want to chit turn the narrative around of like there could be things that yes, they are stupid in the stereotype of oh my god, this is so dumb. But we can still give it a praise. It's like a Urinetown or a Xanadu. It's like we need these musicals.

[33:11] Constantine Rousouli: Well, and if it's not good, it's really good. And when it's bad, yeah, Book of Mormon is like exactly. You know what I mean? Like it could you know what I mean? But that's what I'm saying. Like it could have been it could be right. It could be. If this was bad, it would be like really, really bad, you know?

[33:26] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, yeah.

[33:27] Constantine Rousouli: And it's not, it's it's like it really, really, really hits the mark. I mean, we get audience members that are like, I I the other day, this girl comes up to us and she goes, I would see this every single day if I could. Like we come back every day, and we were like, okay.

[33:44] Carrie St. Louis: Like, you know.

[33:45] Constantine Rousouli: I was like, come back. It's just yeah, yeah. I mean, like we said, it's always gonna be different. Obviously, there's improv and stuff, and you know, watching you guys try to break each other is such a fucking blast for us.

[33:55] Carrie St. Louis: It's like hopeless.

[33:57] Constantine Rousouli: You are hopeless, Carrie.

[34:00] Carrie St. Louis: Oh my gosh.

[34:01] Constantine Rousouli: Carrie is so easy and it's makes you so happy.

[34:07] Carrie St. Louis: But it's that SNL thing, too, right? Like, that's what my fiancé was saying. It was like, he's like, it it you want you like want them to break. You you you want to see them because we know that you guys are having a good time, and it it it just sort of opens the whole thing up.

[34:21] Constantine Rousouli: Russell, if if I don't laugh at what what Russell says to me, he will just stare at me until I laugh. Like that is what has become the like, he will just stare at me. And I'm like, oh no, no, I can't.

[34:35] Carrie St. Louis: Oh yeah, you saw the jacket, you saw the jacket, Snafu.

[34:39] Constantine Rousouli: The jacket was that was so good.

[34:41] Carrie St. Louis: Oh, it was so good. Oh man, that was a perfect little mishap. We were like, yes.

[34:47] Constantine Rousouli: Oh my god.

[34:48] Carrie St. Louis: Oh my god. I I love when I love when stuff happens to Carrie because she does not know what to do, and I had left her hanging probably twice by a chance.

[34:58] Constantine Rousouli: When did I leave? Carrie Reddit.

[35:01] Carrie St. Louis: You just didn't come out. You didn't come out for the I almost missed my entrance because we I had no idea where we were backstage. And I there's that scene for To Love You More when I'm she's on on top, and I'm supposed to be coming out before her. And I'm in my dressing room being like, where where are we in the show? Because we had just moved to the Daryl Roth Theater, and I had no idea how the fuck to get upstairs or to go find my way on stage. And I'm and I hear the music, and then I just see hear Carrie being like, what a beautiful night. What a beautiful night. And I'm nowhere to be found. And I just hear that line over and over and over. I eventually went, I went, Jack, and then I just ran off stage because I was like, I can't. I literally short circuited. Like, I come running from the audience, and I'm like, I'm here, Rose. I'm here. Just a mess. Disaster. Awful.

[35:52] Constantine Rousouli: But yeah, things happen, I mean every day that I just laugh.

[35:55] Carrie St. Louis: Oh my god.

[35:56] Constantine Rousouli: And that's and that's part of the, you know, and again, because the stakes are, it's just nice because the stakes are low, right? Obviously, you care.

[36:04] Carrie St. Louis: So low yet so high.

[36:05] Constantine Rousouli: Right. You care, right? You like you want it to be funny and you want it to be good and you want people to have a good time, but it's not, it's there's nothing precious. Nothing is nothing is too precious. At least that's the way it seems from the audience.

[36:17] Carrie St. Louis: Yes.

[36:17] Constantine Rousouli: I also think.

[36:18] Carrie St. Louis: Although I will say.

[36:19] Constantine Rousouli: Oh yeah. Go ahead.

[36:20] Carrie St. Louis: I was just gonna say, although I will say that it it is very fun and we're having a great time up there, but like these tricks are hard. Like it's hard.

[36:30] Constantine Rousouli: It's also difficult.

[36:31] Carrie St. Louis: And I think like two, like people see it and they're like, oh my god, it looks so fun. And I'm like, yeah, we're having so much fun, but doing this eight times a week is also hard. Like our bodies are just like running and scrunting, and like it's just it's like I don't know, play that goes wrong mixed with Celine Dion, which is like the hardest vocals ever. And there's no intermission, there's no break, it's just like being shot out of a cannon.

[36:58] Constantine Rousouli: We're the whole ensemble. We're singing every we're singing every single number backstage too.

[37:03] Carrie St. Louis: Like I'm running to do a change singing backup vocals.

[37:06] Constantine Rousouli: I thought there were tracks for sure.

[37:08] Carrie St. Louis: That is wild.

[37:10] Constantine Rousouli: No, it's all of us.

[37:12] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah.

[37:13] Constantine Rousouli: But that you know what? That's that's that whole, that's that whole thing. That's the whole like it's that young scrappy hungry thing. Like you guys, like you're like, we can do it. You're like, we can do it. We'll just do it.

[37:22] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah. I I tell I tell myself every day, I'm like, how the fuck, and why the fuck did I write this so hard for myself? What I was like, I should just come in and be like, okay, easy. Gonna do one number and call it a day. Yet I have given myself the hardest track. I'm schwabamming my 200 pound ass on the fucking wooden stage every single night. Are you crazy? Am I insane? Like, what have I done to myself to deserve it?

[37:49] Constantine Rousouli: You learn, yes.

[37:50] Carrie St. Louis: I was in PT yesterday, and I literally on the table with my PT guy, and I'm like, fix me. He's like, what is wrong with you? I was like, I don't know. What do I have to prove to myself? I've been doing this shit for 10 years. I gotta go.

[38:05] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, so okay, so let's let's talk about that for a second because I think this is an interesting. I'm wondering like what your perspective is, both of you guys, on landing here now, at this point in your careers, and like what it's teaching you, or what you're what you've learned about yourself, you know, at this point, because this is this is interesting. Like we were saying, you know, to to have had a successful career and have worked and worked and worked, and then now to be doing something like this, I imagine there's some sort of like there has to be some sort of change that has happened or is happening within you as an artist, like as a trade person.

[38:51] Carrie St. Louis: Enjine.

[38:51] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, exactly.

[38:51] Carrie St. Louis: I'll I'll start because we have very I mean, obviously, this is like Constantine's child. I am just a part of this production, which is wonderful. But for me, I think it's like I just it it's not life or death anymore for me. Whereas I know when you're when you're young and you're trying to make it, it's like, oh, what you're always thinking, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? And oh am I ever gonna work again? And it just kind of creates this rat race in your brain. And of course, that's part of it. Like, you know, it's it's the industry that we're in.

[39:21] Carrie St. Louis: But I think this time around, like, I'm genuinely doing this show because I love it so much and I love Constantine so much, and it's just so fun for me to be able to like go and clown around with my favorite people in the world. Like every night we're just like we're obsessed with each other in life. So like we're backstage, like hi, yeah, yeah. And then we go on stage and we go, I and it's just we're getting paid to do that, right? And like it is such a it's so fun. The audiences are electric. Like, I could come into the theater in a kind of a bad mood, and I always leave in a better mood than I came in with. So for me, it's just it's nice to be a part of something that I believe in with people I love and to have a good time.

Like, I think my perspective shift is just like enjoy this because you know, I look back at some of those 10 years where I was doing eight shows a week straight, and I'm like, I wish I would have enjoyed it a little bit more. Like playing Wicked and playing Glinda in Wicked was like my ultimate dream, and I definitely appreciated it so much while I was in it. But there were also moments where I was, it's just hard. And I think I look back and I'm like, I wish I could have enjoyed that a little bit more instead of feeling like I was in a pressure cooker. And it's just like you've got to do the right thing at all the right times. Um so it's really given me a lot of freedom as a performer, as an artist, and like I'm a vocal coach.

So like I'm taking all this knowledge and like imparting it all my students, being like, this isn't life or death. Like your happiness is genuinely the most important thing outside of anything else. Like you will end up on your feet, you will end up where you're supposed to be, but like don't ever let it become something that like makes you hate yourself or not believe in yourself, you know. It's not worth it for that. So that's my perspective shift. But yeah.

[41:12] Constantine Rousouli: Oh my god. But honestly, mic dropped Carrie St. Louis. Yeah, so gorgeous. We love it. I was like, I was like, tell me more. Um, I mean, honestly, what Carrie has said too, it's I think the shift has been from fear and doubt to just being wide awake and and like uh loving something that you used to love purely because of joy and happiness and being connected to your like root self. And I've become such a zen fucking hen these past five years because I needed to like really do some spiritual awakening from myself and just get my mind right and get it in this, you know, alignment from this crazy career that I started at 17. I, you know, graduated high school and joined the Hairspray tour as Link Larkin.

And it was just like off to the races. So all I knew was going from high school on tour and just growing up and being an adult. And how as amazing as it was, and it and you know, I was I'm so fortunate and I was lucky and grateful, it's you forget because there's pressure, and then you have to try and be the best version of yourself. And at that young of an age, you're just forced to grow up so fast, and you're like, okay, well, I have to do this, I need to be amazing. People are coming to see the show and they're gonna judge me. And my voice, uh, I have to sing this perfectly every night, and the perfectionism will fucking kill you. It will eat you alive, and trying and non-stop, and then you forget, and you just are the more you effort something, the more you effort something, you're putting a hand in between what you really love and what you truly should be.

So I needed to take a full step back, you know, moving to LA and really just getting my brain wrapped around the sense of okay, I need to go within and see how I can truly wake up and be happy because it's a choice to be happy. So I started meditating and I started telling myself it's this is just a job, it's a career, it's something you love. So, why do I hate something that I love right now? I need to figure this out because I'm getting all these other voices and shit in the way of the one thing that I truly love is performing and giving people the gift that we were blessed with to laugh, to be moved. You know, we are their outlet for entertainment. And I'm like, okay.

[43:39] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah. So the second I started being like, okay, I'm gonna give back my talent instead of it being so self-indulgent and being like, I need to be perfect, and I'm number one, and you start becoming a crazy person, and then you start comparing yourself to people, and that is the one thing that will ruin you, and then you know, get lost. You're so lost. And I was so lost until I finally made my way back. And I think the pandemic really helped to really quiet my mind even more because this was something that I was waiting for for so long. And I was like, oh god, this the show that we wrote, I don't know if it's ever gonna happen. And then that you put that into perspective, and you're like, okay, well, it's not gonna be the end all be all.

I still uh I I'm here living this life. So how am I gonna what else am I gonna do? Yeah, right. And it's not about it's not about my life. Yeah, how's my life? How's my relationship with myself? Yeah, uh your value is more than just family, your work, musical, theater, or acting or whatever. And the second you start putting all of that first, and then you watch how your career and things will come at the right moment, and you're like, wow, I didn't get that job because it was opening a door for this, or this didn't happen because and like I look at everything like now as a blessing of if I don't get this fucking job, who the fuck cares? I'm gonna go have brunch with my friends, and I'm gonna enjoy this day, and I'm gonna see the people that I love, and I'm gonna do other hobbies that make me happy, get your vibration high, get your everything aligned into the sense of like I'm whole without a career, and you will be completely fine, and then the universe will drop all these little buckets.

[45:26] Constantine Rousouli: Right, of course. Yeah, and they will come and they will come at the right time. That comes with like age too, is you just start being like, Oh, I'm worth way more than like what my job like honestly, when you're in a show, you can't even hang out with your friends like you used to. No. So, so like, I used to be like, oh god, everyone's gonna be wondering what I'm up to. Uh uh. And now I'm like, I'm sorry, I like literally can't hang out with you because I'm doing a show. And it's like it doesn't matter. Like, we're friends beyond whatever any show anyone's doing, you know. Like there's room for everyone. Yeah, there's room for everyone. The second that the second that you can not be that cutthroat, because we grew up, I mean, I'm sure you grew up the same in this business of like cutthroat.

You you don't give you don't give anything away in an audition. You do not, you just hold your ground, you don't help anybody, and I'm like, well, someone else getting it means you didn't. It means like someone got it instead of you. It's like which is crazy. Being on the opposite side now as a creator and going into these auditions and seeing people come in now that I'm on the other side of the table. I'm like, it has nothing to do with our talent. It's so eye-opening. I wish everybody could see this. It has nothing to do with your talent. It's just either you have this essence of this character that we are looking for, or you don't. And it has nothing to do with you personally, but we used to take it so fucking personally.

And so just gutted. I can't believe they didn't pick me. It's like, you're just not right. You are just not right, and that's fine. And that's cool. Great. Also, do I want to do a show that I'm not right for that I just seen eight shows a week? That's the T. That's the T. Like, no. Do you want to do a show? Like, that is a nightmare.

[47:11] Carrie St. Louis: And I think the second, like you great point, Matt. Pretending to be somebody that you are not. And that in this business, I had tried so hard to be this crazy straight leading man who was because I look like a leading man, and I'm gonna be, you know, the Aaron Tvaites of it all, and the Jeremy Jordans, and I'm perfect, and I blah blah blah. But I'm this like weird, gay, funny guy that and everyone's like, don't do that. So I was like, okay. Um now I'm gonna write a show that I'm gonna showcase all of my fucking quirks because there's room for that. Yeah. And I'm not gonna be pigeonheld in a box to be like, hey, I'm Danny Zuko. How you doing? I riz my macaroni. Oh, god, I'm not, I don't want to do that anymore. Yeah, there's a fucking diamond in my macaroni, Riz. Like, I'm not doing that. I mean, I probably would kill it, honestly.

[48:04] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, right. But it's staying, it's like as so cliché as it is staying true to to yourself and actually finding out yourself and being okay with it. Be like, you know what? This is me. I'm not a fucking screaming high tenor, and I will never be. I'm a fucking baritone, great. And I'm trying to like these notes. Yes, forget it. I don't want it to be tenors back in the day. And it's like, who cares? Who gives a shit? I don't okay, cool. They can belt a high C. It doesn't mean that you're the most amazing performer ever. Get out of here. No, and I do this with Carrie all the time. The thing I'm hearing, the thing I'm hearing is that it sounds like, and you correct me if I'm wrong here, it sounds like you both have sort of gotten off the ladder of this feeling that we have to keep climbing.

That uh oh, what is this gonna lead to in my career? What is this gonna what is my oh, how big can I get? How many people are gonna know me? How many followers am I gonna have? How much money can I make? Et cetera. It's just this this perpetual climb thing that doesn't, it really doesn't end. There is no yeah, there is no you can win a fucking pony, and it's still, you're still wanting more. Yeah, you know what I mean? Of course.

[49:15] Carrie St. Louis: So yeah, it to hear you guys, it sounds like you guys have both sort of like just stepped off that ladder and are in you're like, oh, I'm just gonna do my thing and be myself. And it translates like the audience is freeing for everybody involved. It's like the oh yeah, we can all laugh at this. Yeah, people are losing their minds. I mean, they come up to Carrie and I and they're like, you guys, this is wild. We are I brought my 84-year-old grandmother and then my 10-year-old child, and they both loved it. And they're both crying and they're both laughing. So to me, I'm like, great, there's there's way more than you know, being that stereotypical, I have to be a star and I'm gonna, I'm making millions and I'm gonna win Tonys great it won't end.

Where does where does that go? Like it just it it's you're not gonna be happy if you're chasing the rat race, if you're in a hamster wheel, you're not gonna be happy. And I think you and I think you said it well that like obviously, you know, the sort of baseline of it is like happiness is a choice, right? But I think what that looks like is it it's like fill, you know, what it like we said, like what is your what what is your life? Like, how can you fill your life with joy, right? How can you do things during your day or just in general that are that are gonna make you happy or feel fulfilled? And then the musical theater thing is like just a whipped cream on top of that, you know? It's it's it's not the bread and butter, it's it's not the actual cake itself.

And I think that's what a lot of people get caught up in, is because you especially if you go to school for musical theater or you're thrust into it at a young age, it feels like your whole world feels like if I don't do this thing, if I don't win. If I'm not good. Oh yeah. I'm gonna disappoint somebody. And then I'm gonna, then I'm gonna fail. And it's all this fear and this pressure of I'm gonna fail and people are gonna see the real me and how my how did I bamboozle this? And it's just like all these stupid crazy things go on in your mind.

[51:14] Constantine Rousouli: And I'm like, oh God, girl, it ain't that d it's musical fucking theater. We're singing and dancing for a living. It's like we're not curing cancer. I'm not doing brain surgery. It's musical theater. The other thing I was I was thinking about was like, I think, you know, and having you both years is i interesting in that like the relationships, I think are maybe the most important part of quote unquote the business or whatever you want to call it. Yeah, because not only are those the things that are gonna, well, I think first and foremost, those are the things that are gonna sustain you in the sense of like that's what's gonna make you feel whole and fulfilled. They just did an 85-year research study on adult development.

And the one thing, one of, but the main thing that they said like determines if people are happy or not, is the strength of the relationships in their life. And if you have like strong friendships and people that you can call and support a support system, a loving support system, it it makes all the difference. It's it's everything. I always say I want to work with my friends. And then you get, and then you don't know what opportunities are gonna come and how people are gonna bring you into certain things and what that's gonna turn into.

[52:31] Carrie St. Louis: And you guys are not going to be able to do that.

[52:32] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, we would have never known with Cruel Intentions that this would lead to, you know, like five years later we'd be doing this.

[52:37] Carrie St. Louis: But I always tell my students, I'm like, it's above and beyond like your talent. You just wanna be someone that people want to work with.

[52:45] Constantine Rousouli: It's like any job, right? Like your goal, it's an interview.

[52:49] Carrie St. Louis: If you're gonna be on the road with a company for a year, and you are known as a problematic person, or you're, you know, it's like you're not gonna get cast just because no one wants to work with you.

[53:00] Constantine Rousouli: Like, and these little tiny, it's like Connie and I became really super close.

[53:04] Carrie St. Louis: Actually, kind of we met in Wicked, and then Cruel Intentions happened.

[53:08] Constantine Rousouli: We were like, oh, we can't wait to like actually like work together, and then we became best friends, and now we're doing this.

[53:12] Carrie St. Louis: And it's like, you know, Eva was the producer of Cruel Intentions.

[53:16] Constantine Rousouli: So when my name came up for this, she was like, Yes, done, love Carrie.

[53:19] Carrie St. Louis: Like it just, it's these little tiny pieces of the puzzle that like you just at the end of the day want to be someone that everyone wants to work with.

[53:28] Constantine Rousouli: Period point blank.

[53:29] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, above and beyond your talent. Just be a good person, like be a good person, but just be a good person.

[53:35] Constantine Rousouli: It's that's it's as simple as that. Like be empathetic, be sympathetic, like be everything that you would want to be treated, how you would like want to be treated.

[53:44] Carrie St. Louis: And it's like I, I also going back to Matt Lenz, who I love, he's always like, make sure when you're on tour, you are respectful to the people who open the door for you at the theater, the people who are washing your clothes, the people who are in the elevator with you, anybody, you always be fucking respectful and you treat them how you would want to be treated.

[54:04] Constantine Rousouli: And it has resonated with me.

[54:06] Carrie St. Louis: He's like these random dressers in Paducah, Kentucky, who are working their ass off for you that you will probably never see again, or five years down the road when you're on another tour, they go, Oh my god, I remember you were so sweet. Hi, and you make an impression.

[54:20] Constantine Rousouli: It's like, okay, cool, be a good person.

[54:23] Carrie St. Louis: And you want to work with your friends.

[54:24] Constantine Rousouli: Like ultimately, this whole cast, when we first started, were all of my friends.

[54:29] Carrie St. Louis: And it's like, you're just gonna do this. You're gonna play this part. You're that's my dream to work with your friends because you know what's up, and that's what's a loving environment.

[54:39] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah.

[54:39] Carrie St. Louis: No bad.

[54:41] Constantine Rousouli: No bad eggs.

[54:42] Carrie St. Louis: No, we don't have we don't have we don't have time.

[54:44] Constantine Rousouli: One rotten egg spoils the bunch.

[54:46] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, like life is just too short, you know.

[54:48] Constantine Rousouli: And again, like it's this is, it's supposed to be fun, right?

[54:52] Carrie St. Louis: Like we don't need to have that energy in our professional lives or in our personal lives.

[54:58] Constantine Rousouli: Like, I'm just like, I don't need it.

[54:59] Carrie St. Louis: I don't need the drama, I don't need the gossip.

[55:02] Constantine Rousouli: I just don't, I don't care.

[55:04] Carrie St. Louis: Like, I'm too old now to have to deal with that anymore.

[55:07] Constantine Rousouli: Um, and this, and this career is too hard.

[55:10] Carrie St. Louis: It's like, okay, we're not gonna change that today.

[55:14] Constantine Rousouli: The jig is up.

[55:15] Carrie St. Louis: We're not doing that today.

[55:16] Constantine Rousouli: And if you want to come back around, go outside and come walk back in this door.

[55:20] Carrie St. Louis: But that's, you know, that's hard.

[55:21] Constantine Rousouli: I think people have a hard time like getting like releasing friendships that are not serving them, you know.

[55:27] Carrie St. Louis: Like they feel like obligated to people or things, and they're like, Well, this person, you never know what the opportunity and, and I think that's the other side of this is that like, it's not worth it in the end.

[55:37] Constantine Rousouli: Um, if you're, if the people that are you're around or that you're spending time with are sucking you dry, that you, that you're, that you're not, you don't leave feeling more fulfilled or happier or enjoying yourself when you're somewhere, you know, you're just on edge trying to impress people.

[55:52] Carrie St. Louis: The best thing is to stop being a people pleaser.

[55:55] Constantine Rousouli: And I was the biggest people pleaser growing up nonstop.

[56:00] Carrie St. Louis: My energy was like leaps and bounds, miles and miles, hundreds of thousands of miles away from my soul.

[56:07] Constantine Rousouli: And my energy was, what are this?

[56:10] Carrie St. Louis: Oh my god, this person, uh, I'm gonna do this because I, I need to make sure this person likes me and this person that whatever.

[56:15] Constantine Rousouli: Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be so extra because this person needs to think I'm funny.

[56:19] Carrie St. Louis: It is fucking exhausting.

[56:21] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah.

[56:22] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah.

[56:22] Constantine Rousouli: It's not just not worth it.

[56:25] Carrie St. Louis: And take, and take.

[56:26] Constantine Rousouli: And then you're like, I'm good.

[56:27] Carrie St. Louis: The people that I need will get it and be close to me.

[56:31] Constantine Rousouli: And we don't have to do this, you know, energy exchange where all you do is take, take, take.

[56:37] Carrie St. Louis: Um, the other thing that I felt seeing the show was inspired.

[56:42] Constantine Rousouli: I was like, man.

[56:43] Carrie St. Louis: Good. Because I think, and I've talked to a lot of people about this who've seen it, that you know, you as someone who's in the industry and who's a creative person, like, I was just hyper aware of the fact that like you guys put this together.

[56:57] Constantine Rousouli: Like you guys are the ones that made this happen.

[56:59] Carrie St. Louis: And sitting there, you're like, yeah, why don't we fucking just make our own fucking shit?

[57:05] Constantine Rousouli: Like, like, like something we felt like in college.

[57:07] Carrie St. Louis: I remember feeling that way too.

[57:09] Constantine Rousouli: Um, so I'm curious, like, what, what the, like what's, what's the guidance?

[57:14] Carrie St. Louis: What's the, what, what are the, what are some of the lessons that you can share?

[57:18] Constantine Rousouli: You know what I mean?

[57:20] Carrie St. Louis: Honestly, it's, it's listening to your gut.

[57:23] Constantine Rousouli: You know that little, you or you're that little tiny person, or you just feel it like this that intuition of like, wow, I'm on to something, or not being afraid to have an idea and just be like, okay, uh, this gonna go off all right.

[57:40] Carrie St. Louis: Are people gonna laugh at me? Are they gonna like it? Who the fuck cares?

[57:43] Constantine Rousouli: Listen to your gut.

[57:44] Carrie St. Louis: And if you have an idea, write it down or do it.

[57:48] Constantine Rousouli: Just do it.

[57:49] Carrie St. Louis: Make it happen and see what happens because you'll, you will learn so many lessons from just trying to build something and create something from your, from the ground up, which is your own.

[58:00] Constantine Rousouli: And or being like, oh, I don't really like to do that if it goes the other way.

[58:05] Carrie St. Louis: Like it'll teach you a lesson.

[58:07] Constantine Rousouli: And I just think you have to be true.

[58:09] Carrie St. Louis: That is staying true to yourself.

[58:11] Constantine Rousouli: I had, I'm not a, I was not a writer.

[58:13] Carrie St. Louis: Now I'm like, okay, I guess I'm a writer.

[58:15] Constantine Rousouli: Was not a writer.

[58:16] Carrie St. Louis: You just go.

[58:17] Constantine Rousouli: If it, if it rings a bell inside of your soul and you're like, oh my God, I have to do this.

[58:22] Carrie St. Louis: Don't stop.

[58:23] Constantine Rousouli: Just do it.

[58:23] Carrie St. Louis: It's gonna be hard.

[58:24] Constantine Rousouli: It's gonna be weird.

[58:25] Carrie St. Louis: You're not gonna know what the fuck to do.

[58:26] Constantine Rousouli: But ask questions.

[58:28] Carrie St. Louis: Be like, hey, I've never done this before.

[58:30] Constantine Rousouli: Is there a formula?

[58:31] Carrie St. Louis: There is no formula.

[58:32] Constantine Rousouli: I always say there's no formula to anything.

[58:34] Carrie St. Louis: You can't break the code.

[58:35] Constantine Rousouli: You are the code.

[58:36] Carrie St. Louis: So if you can listen to yourself and just do it, by all means, just don't be afraid to do it.

[58:43] Constantine Rousouli: I also think this is completely like sort of separate enough, but like when I was building my vocal coaching business, like I remember feeling at the beginning what was really stopping me from doing it was I felt like it was eggy.

[58:43] Carrie St. Louis: I felt like it was like, oh, like come to my studio.

[59:02] Constantine Rousouli: Say this shit.

[59:03] Carrie St. Louis: It felt so eggy.

[59:04] Constantine Rousouli: And I remember this, like it was kind of like one of those like light, white bulb moments where I saw someone else doing it in this industry, and I was like, oh, it's so eggy what she's doing.

[59:16] Carrie St. Louis: And then I sat with that for a second and was like, I think the reason I think it's eggy is because I'm jealous, and that's just what I want to be doing, and I'm just not doing it because she was being so, she was so successful at it.

[59:28] Constantine Rousouli: Like I was like, I was like just watching her business and her brand grow.

[59:33] Carrie St. Louis: And I was sitting back going, uh-uh-uh, and I'm like, why do I care?

[59:33] Constantine Rousouli: Why do I care so much?

[59:39] Carrie St. Louis: And at the end of the day, what I realized is no one is thinking about you as much as you're thinking about you.

[59:46] Constantine Rousouli: No one cares about what you're doing, literally ever.

[59:49] Carrie St. Louis: And so I was like, okay, fine, I'm just gonna make an Instagram that's separate for my studio, and just like so that it's not bombarding people that don't care about it.

[59:59] Constantine Rousouli: And if they want to follow that, they can.

[1:00:01] Carrie St. Louis: My business tripled overnight, and all these people that I thought were gonna think it was eggy ended up coming to me asking advice, like, oh, how did you start?

[1:00:10] Constantine Rousouli: Like, how did you grow it?

[1:00:11] Carrie St. Louis: How did you do it?

[1:00:12] Constantine Rousouli: And now all those people are doing it too.

[1:00:14] Carrie St. Louis: And I'm like, it doesn't, like at the end of the day, and now it's like a full running business that like I have that I'm so proud of and I work so hard on.

[1:00:23] Constantine Rousouli: And I, I look back and I'm like, if I would have continued to sit in like, oh, this is gonna seem eggy and this is gonna be dumb, I wouldn't be where I am now.

[1:00:31] Carrie St. Louis: Where it's like I run my own business, like and I can do that and have a the lifestyle and the life that I want.

[1:00:39] Constantine Rousouli: So like just get out of your own way.

[1:00:41] Carrie St. Louis: Like nobody cares about you.

[1:00:42] Constantine Rousouli: Nobody's thinking about you.

[1:00:44] Carrie St. Louis: Huge.

[1:00:45] Constantine Rousouli: I think nobody's thinking about you.

[1:00:46] Carrie St. Louis: No one's thinking about you.

[1:00:47] Constantine Rousouli: They don't care, and if they, and if they are jealous or think that it's eggy, it's probably because they want what you have at the end of the day, like or they just don't have the courage to like do what you're doing.

[1:01:01] Carrie St. Louis: Yeah, you know, and it's always some, it's like imposter syndrome too, because that's what you, you face.

[1:01:06] Constantine Rousouli: And I was like, wait, I'm gonna put out a product that I now I'm considered a writer.

[1:01:12] Carrie St. Louis: Writer.

[1:01:12] Constantine Rousouli: I wrote this musical.

[1:01:13] Carrie St. Louis: It's like everyone's like, okay, Queen, you literally, you're an actor, you know, oh, you're gonna be a writer now.

[1:01:19] Constantine Rousouli: Okay, we get it.

[1:01:20] Carrie St. Louis: Right, but whose voice is that?

[1:01:22] Constantine Rousouli: Like, who, like, you know what I'm saying?

[1:01:23] Carrie St. Louis: Like, it's like what right, exactly?

[1:01:24] Constantine Rousouli: It's my own shit.

[1:01:25] Carrie St. Louis: It's my own shit in that, that I'm in my way because of fear and fear and doubt.

[1:01:29] Constantine Rousouli: Cut to the New York Times.

[1:01:31] Carrie St. Louis: Cut to the New York Times.

[1:01:35] Constantine Rousouli: Literally.

[1:01:35] Carrie St. Louis: Do you know what I mean?

[1:01:37] Constantine Rousouli: But that's, that's what you, that if when you get out of your own way and you start just listening to yourself and something that genuinely makes you happy.

[1:01:47] Carrie St. Louis: We were writing this because it made us happy to make each other laugh on the side.

[1:01:53] Constantine Rousouli: Getting away from the crazy business of film and TV and musical theater and career, and to just have an outlet to make to look at my friends at a table every Monday night in my apartment in LA and make each other laugh.

[1:02:08] Carrie St. Louis: What more can you want?

[1:02:09] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah.

[1:02:10] Carrie St. Louis: But also, even if it didn't end up being this, that's still a good one.

[1:02:14] Constantine Rousouli: And that's what I was gonna say.

[1:02:15] Carrie St. Louis: There's, there's, there was, there's no attachment to the outcome.

[1:02:19] Constantine Rousouli: I'm here, and that's something I hear you both say.

[1:02:21] Carrie St. Louis: Like there's no, um, yeah, there's just no attachment to what this is gonna turn into, or what, what this is gonna get us, or what this is gonna make us, or what it's not.

[1:02:30] Constantine Rousouli: But you never know that with life.

[1:02:32] Carrie St. Louis: Right.

[1:02:32] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, it's just at a time.

[1:02:35] Carrie St. Louis: My mom always says that too.

[1:02:36] Constantine Rousouli: Like, I get very overwhelmed by being like, Well, what about like in a year and blah blah, two years, three years, like and, and especially with writing a show.

[1:02:43] Carrie St. Louis: I mean, I like literally, if you just started being like, and it's gonna be at the Daryl Roth, and it's gonna be like you would, you would have like been paralyzed by like how will I ever get there?

[1:02:53] Constantine Rousouli: My mom is always like, she's like, it's one step at a time.

[1:02:57] Carrie St. Louis: You do one little thing at a time.

[1:02:59] Constantine Rousouli: You don't get too ahead of yourself.

[1:03:01] Carrie St. Louis: You just, okay.

[1:03:02] Constantine Rousouli: Now you made the Instagram for your business.

[1:03:04] Carrie St. Louis: Okay, great.

[1:03:05] Constantine Rousouli: Now you have a way for people to reach out for lessons on your website.

[1:03:09] Carrie St. Louis: Okay.

[1:03:09] Constantine Rousouli: Like it's just little by little.

[1:03:11] Carrie St. Louis: And then one day you turn around and you go, people are like, wow, how did you do it?

[1:03:15] Constantine Rousouli: And you're like, one step at a time.

[1:03:17] Carrie St. Louis: I just literally just stayed the course.

[1:03:20] Constantine Rousouli: And even if it doesn't end up that way, you're putting forward motion towards something.

[1:03:25] Carrie St. Louis: It can always offshoot in a different direction.

[1:03:27] Constantine Rousouli: Like you never know.

[1:03:29] Carrie St. Louis: Or you could be like, wow, I, in building my website, I found out that I'm like actually really into website design.

[1:03:35] Constantine Rousouli: So now I'm gonna do that instead.

[1:03:37] Carrie St. Louis: Like there's so many avenues.

[1:03:39] Constantine Rousouli: You never know where it's gonna go.

[1:03:40] Carrie St. Louis: Cause you think you have this ultimate through point because we're like musical theater Broadway.

[1:03:46] Constantine Rousouli: I'm gonna win a Tony.

[1:03:47] Carrie St. Louis: So like it like is such a stereotype of like what you think is gonna happen.

[1:03:51] Constantine Rousouli: But the second you let that go, it's amazing.

[1:03:56] Carrie St. Louis: Like the, the world's your, the world's your fucking oyster, and you can do whatever you want.

[1:03:59] Constantine Rousouli: And I think that's the, the greatness of taking a step back and then coming back to something that is on your own terms now, and you're like, wow, I'm, you know, day by day.

[1:04:12] Carrie St. Louis: It's not, it's, it's day by day.

[1:04:17] Constantine Rousouli: I thought you were going to—

[1:04:17] Carrie St. Louis: I thought we were going to—

[1:04:17] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, I was, I was surprised that we took it there, but that's okay.

[1:04:26] Constantine Rousouli: I was kind of like, all right, you know, damn.

[1:04:28] Carrie St. Louis: I don't really know.

[1:04:28] Carrie St. Louis: This is, this is some, this is um, this was some we got like we got deep, Matty.

[1:04:33] Constantine Rousouli: Yeah, that's the way, that's the way I like it too.

[1:04:35] Carrie St. Louis: Like we went to church, we went to church on a Tuesday.

[1:04:37] Constantine Rousouli: Getting high on the spiritual vibes and the guidance.

[1:04:41] Carrie St. Louis: Listen, it, it and I, and I can tell too, like just by the way that you guys kind of both light up about talking about this stuff, like how much you care, you know, and how much and, and how much you, you know, you that you're not in that place of being a 25-year-old or a 22-year-old that's coming out of school that that is like everything and needs to be the biggest deal like it's, it's really amazing I mean obviously the show is brilliant and wonderful and I've said all that stuff but to see you guys like light up talking about this stuff is it's just such a testament to like where you guys are at.

[1:05:14] Constantine Rousouli: So it's, it's great.

[1:05:15] Carrie St. Louis: I'm, I'm so thank you.

[1:05:16] Constantine Rousouli: I'm, I'm thankful um that we got to, that we got to do this.

[1:05:20] Carrie St. Louis: This was like really fun.

[1:05:21] Constantine Rousouli: Me too I'm so happy we did this.

[1:05:23] Carrie St. Louis: Matt you're the best so good to see you.

[1:05:26] Constantine Rousouli: Thanks for listening.

[1:05:28] Carrie St. Louis: See you next time.