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[0:00] Matt Rodin: Hey, thanks for hitting play. Welcome to The Come Up. My name is Matt. And on this episode, a conversation with my friend and one of the most incredible dancers I have ever met, Karli Dinardo. Karli is someone who I've known since my early days in New York. And it has been such a treat to watch her career and her life blossom to where she is now, absolutely slaying in Bob Fosse's DANCIN on Broadway. We get into everything from her origin story and the spiritual nature of dance to her evolving relationship with Fosse and the ways in which being an immigrant in this city and this business have shaped her into the woman that she is today. I feel so grateful that we had the opportunity to connect and record it for you all because she really is a light with a heart made of gold. I love her, and I think you will too. So without further ado, here is my friend, Karli Dinardo.

[1:08] Karli Dinardo: The thing that we both, my fans and both said is like it's just so athletic. Like it's like you guys are athletes, what you're doing.

[1:15] Matt Rodin: Fully. Also, Karli, you're saying.

[1:19] Karli Dinardo: I did not expect there to be any singing in the show. I was like, oh, I'm coming to see like a dance review. I didn't think there was gonna be anything. And then I was like, oh wait, Karli's literally singing, wailing. Were you like, were you excited? Or was that like terrifying? Were you like, oh wait a second, like I have to do this?

[1:42] Karli Dinardo: I think I was mostly excited. This came about before as we were in rehearsals for San Diego for our out of town. So for the workshop, we kind of presented act one plus like singing "Here You Come Again" from act two. Like that was kind of the consolidated presentation. And because they basically created Big City Mime, that whole section in act one, and so when we started we had an idea of what like our features were according to that. But then they were like, hey actually you're not doing this anymore because we want you to sing a song instead and I was like, oh okay, sure, that's cool. And it was funny because I've always tried to use my voice in whatever capacity I can in my career, whether it's like with understudying or things like that.

So I was kind of, I was like, oh yes, this is exactly what I want to do. But then it's that, you know, that duality of like what's comfortable versus what you actually like want to grow towards. And so I was just very much like great, this is gonna be a challenge, I can't wait. I was excited for the kind of responsibility and the push to become more comfortable with it. So yeah, it's definitely, I'm very grateful.

[3:01] Matt Rodin: Always a dancer first though, you were always like, is that or was it sort of all around triple threat from the beginning or was it like was dance the first thing?

[3:11] Karli Dinardo: Dance is what I started with, like when I was three, like definitely started dancing first. But through dancing we had to sing and do things as much well-rounded as possible because that was kind of like if you want to be employable, you have to do everything type mentality. But dance was like technically very much first.

[3:39] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[3:39] Karli Dinardo: And it was kind of I developed a love for singing as I got older and like understood musical theater more because my own.

[3:46] Matt Rodin: Yeah, when did musical theater?

[3:48] Karli Dinardo: Yeah, what was when did that come into like your periphery?

[3:52] Karli Dinardo: Um, so I don't exactly remember what age, but through my dance training we had concerts and competitions and things like that. So you had like a song and dance solo, or you did a song and dance troupe, or things like that that had always kind of been interwoven. And our teachers would create some musical theater number, you know, that we would do.

[4:10] Matt Rodin: Right.

[4:17] Karli Dinardo: So it's always been there and I started taking voice lessons when I was doing my song and dance solos to try to like, you know, work on all of the things and technique and such. So that's always been there, but I think from when I was maybe more, I would say maybe closer to teenage, like twelve, thirteen was when I started actually caring and understanding that the voice is as much a muscle and an instrument as like the body for dance. Like obviously it's just separate in like the way that as a dancer we're used to breathing or navigating certain things. There is an equivalent for our voice. So that was when I think I started to really become interested in that more specifically.

[5:03] Matt Rodin: Yeah, that's so interesting. I sing and dance.

[5:05] Karli Dinardo: Right.

[5:05] Matt Rodin: I guess I never really, I'm trying to remember like at what point I realized that the voice was muscular. Like I guess for me it was always just kind of like it was just like fun, right? Like it wasn't like it, like I didn't take it that seriously. I think maybe in high school when I started taking voice lessons, like for real, it was like, oh, this is something that I like have to like, but I used to like hate like having to go to voice lessons and like warming up and like I didn't cause I don't know, there was something about, you know, you saw like pop stars or whatever and it didn't, you didn't, I never felt like they had to do that. It was just like they just sang, you know, you could just sing. Um, but I think that's so interesting that because you were, your background was dance first that it carried over and you were like, oh, this actually is also an extension of having to like exercise my body. It's an extension of the musculature of my body.

[6:07] Karli Dinardo: Absolutely, and I think because especially with dance training at like intense training as a kid, like you can't sing the way that you breathe to dance. Like you have, there has to be a different because we don't necessarily prioritize the type of breath that would support sound.

[6:19] Matt Rodin: Huh.

[6:30] Karli Dinardo: So that was I think the main factor of like I think I went to sing on stage and I wasn't breathing properly and it was like, what was that? And it was like well, that's because of this, this and this. Like you can't shallow breathe, you can't like, you know, all the things that we now are like, yeah, we take for granted and it's kind of just assumed, but as a kid, it was kind of a really interesting discovery to be like, oh, okay, cool. That's great. And now I'm curious. Now let me figure this out more.

[7:01] Matt Rodin: Right. What were you doing other things other than dance? Or like was dance like the main, like I'm asking 'cause I'm like, were you doing sports or like was dance like the artistic form that was like this is the thing for me? Like this is the that was the in?

[7:13] Karli Dinardo: I definitely started when I was very young. I never slept as a kid so my parents put me into swimming, gymnastics, and dancing all on the same day just to get me tired. That's how it started, which is the funny part. So I was always very like physical as a kid and through school, like a regular school, we were very active, we had to play all the different sports and things as well. So I was always very physical, but as dance hours increased it was very much a matter of like you have to choose because we can't be in all places at one time.

[7:52] Matt Rodin: Right, yeah.

[7:52] Karli Dinardo: And so obviously I chose dance, obviously, just because it brought you the most joy or like what do you think that was where you sort of gravitated?

[7:52] Karli Dinardo: I always knew that I wanted to do it. So there was never a question of oh I want to go to gymnastics instead. It was like no, okay, well great, anymore.

[8:14] Matt Rodin: Yeah, yeah.

[8:14] Karli Dinardo: So and we got to do acrobatics through dancing as well so I it wasn't as if I felt like I was missing out on anything with the other options, but there was no way I could imagine my life without going to dancing. Like that was just not an option. So it was very clear for me. In terms of the structure, I did very much like dance training and singing through dance and acting and they were always very separate. It wasn't really until I when I was a teenager, I was at a different studio, and we had a bit more of an emphasis on musical theater, insofar as like my solos were from actual musicals that had just come out, or things that I was able to just learn more about. But at the same time, I would say that the actual musical theater awareness, because obviously Australia is so far away, and it's not the same as New York insofar as like access to information.

When I moved here for college, that was when it was kind of like this, oh my god, this is so much bigger than I ever could have thought of. Like all these shows that everybody was talking about. I was like, I've never heard of these shows in my life.

[9:38] Matt Rodin: Like and that was very much like the eye-opening of oh wow, this is like a times a million than what I thought it was.

[9:46] Karli Dinardo: So yeah, what did what was what what did you think it was? Like what was it, what was Broadway in your head?

[9:53] Karli Dinardo: Like I knew like Wicked and I knew Lion King, and I knew the staples, and I knew some obscure ones, whether it was because it was Fosse, or whether it was because it was a dance show, or I knew of musicals like Legally Blonde. We did a number from that. One of my favorites was The Hunchback of Notre Dame, bit from the German one The Vampire from Germany, because again, we're so far away that we're not in the like creation of the up and coming all the time. And so it wasn't like I knew of Bye Bye Birdie, like all of those kinds of, but it wasn't like I moved here, I was like, In the Heights, what is this show? Like, this is the first time I saw something that I could really be like, I want to do that.

Like that exact thing on stage, which was really cool. But even just the history of the history of musical theater. Like it was a very like the golden age and all of the little intricacies of how this industry became to be. There were so many little obscure, smaller shows that maybe didn't run as long or that I just never even knew about.

[11:10] Matt Rodin: Did you go to school for musical theater?

[11:12] Karli Dinardo: I went to, yeah, I did a conservatory course at AMDA.

[11:16] Matt Rodin: So I guess then I'm like curious. Like, do you have a memory of like, how do I say this? You felt the out of body experience of dancing, like you felt the sort of spiritual connection of dance for the first time. Like I don't know if I, I don't know that I can pinpoint a memory in like in me like doing musical theater. I can certainly remember seeing a show and being like, oh, this is something bigger than me. I want to be a part of that. But I'm curious because I just feel like dance for whatever reason, I guess I feel this way about singing too and acting, but for whatever reason, dance for me is more, it's a more direct channel to something divine. I don't know why that is in my head, but it feels that way to me.

[12:13] Karli Dinardo: That's beautiful. I mean, I think I would agree with you only because that was my first access point. You know, that was like that was my first experience to find that. I think I've definitely had many experiences now later in life where I would say the same for all of them, but I definitely, it's very vague, but I had two ballet teachers when I was a kid that, um, Miss Thelma and Miss Carol, and they I have two very different memories. I think one when I was really, really young, and then with Miss Carol, it was when I was maybe like seven, around that age, where you're like a little bit more aware of your body and what you're aiming for. And both moments, um, I was in ballet class, and it was just this feeling of, I don't know, like I actually am emotional thinking about it.

There's something that was so beautiful about like the movement that you're doing and the music that you're doing it to, and just the grace of feeling aligned in that inner moment where everything just comes together and the intention just kind of is there, and it's not, you're not trying, you're not pushing, you just are existing and doing.

[13:34] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and though they were definitely moments where I was just, I just remember being so happy and just knowing that that was, I wanted that feeling always. Um, and I loved ballet so much. I can't.

[13:46] Karli Dinardo: Yeah, that's surprising.

[13:48] Matt Rodin: I was painting think of that.

[13:50] Karli Dinardo: Right. But you know, like I've always loved ballet, but I think as I got older, it was very clear that it wasn't something that like I could do in the way that at that age I may have dreamed of. Um and that was okay. Like I also was perfectly fine with that acceptance. But there was definitely a moment in my life where it's like, I'm not gonna be a ballerina. What do you mean? It's like my flat feet and like short, like it was just like very much not gonna happen. And then I got curved and hit puberty. I was like, okay, never mind. But I think that's definitely what I remember the most for sure.

[14:25] Matt Rodin: Yeah, great grace is a good word for it, I feel. And I don't think it's surprising that that word feels very much associated with dance.

[14:34] Matt Rodin: You know what I mean? That the graceful, there's something that comes up, I feel like a lot when it comes to like dance language, or that word is just somehow connected to dance in some way.

[14:45] Karli Dinardo: Um yeah, and I and again, I don't know why that dance, and I'm not a dancer, I'm a good mover, I'm like the best. I'm like what I say is I'm like the best dancer at a wedding. That's me. Like at a bar mitzvah, I'm like the best one on the dance floor. That's my MO. Um but there is something about dancing that it I don't know if it's maybe something with about like really having um like using your entire body, but it is it because I've even experienced it like doing like a silent disco here in the city, that like there's something about moving your body and you're moving all of your body that something transcends, you know, like you lose the sense of self and you feel like you're a part of something bigger, and obviously, you know, in the context of something like the show you're doing, there's a lot that technically has to go into that too, right? There's like there's a lot of preparations that has you have to do to get there.

[15:52] Matt Rodin: Yeah, but I imagine because I've experienced this in shows too, like there's a tipping point that you're trying to get to basically every night.

[16:02] Karli Dinardo: Yeah. If you can, that it flips over from thinking about it and trying to remember choreography and do the steps tips over into that transcendence. It tips over into grace and you're able to just like really enjoy what is going on.

[16:21] Matt Rodin: Absolutely. I think that's always the goal because at the end of the day, like there's nothing that you can do. You can't go back and do it again. Like in the show, once the show starts, the show goes. So there's no it's that separation between rehearsal and performance, where it's like, yes, in rehearsal, okay, you cannot like what you did, and we can go back and we can be perfectionists and we can do it a million times over until we get it right, quote unquote, whatever that means. But in performance, the element of well, you have to keep going. Like you can't just stop and redo the number. So there's that acceptance of whatever happens in live theater, it happens in live theater, and that's part of the beautiful experience of what we share with the audience and each other.

[17:05] Karli Dinardo: Right. And for me, that's something I always um I always like will say, whether it's in like prayer circle or just in like my ritual before I start the show, where it's just like trusting the work that you've done up until that point, wherever you are in the day, even because it's honestly it changes two show days every day, every single show day. So just knowing that I've warmed up as much as I could today, I've done my preparation, I'm ready to go. And if something happens, I trust that I'll be able to navigate it, and I'll authentically be present in each moment, so that therefore it all can combine and connect because that's almost more important to me sometimes because I feel like it is an experience.

So if an audience are coming and we're telling a story and I'm only focused on technique or lines and shapes, that's not an experience, and that's not actually saying anything or doing anything. Like we're not performing at that point. So how do you rely on the fact that that's all gonna be there because that's what we've trained to do our whole lives? But focusing on the intention or the experience or what part of the journey you're in at that moment in the show, that feeling, right? That's going to allow all of the things to come together in a way that feels like authentic and for us as performers as well.

[18:31] Matt Rodin: Um how's that going?

[18:34] Karli Dinardo: It's honestly some days super successful, and other days it's more challenging. And I think that's also what's so beautiful about what we do. It's like we're not robots and we're not machines, and so sometimes it's gonna be incredibly successful insofar as like I finish the show and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. I could do this 10 more times today. And then there are other days where I feel like I'll start the show and I'm like having so much fun. I'm like bah going for it, and then I'll do one movement, and then all of a sudden I feel a twinge in a certain part of my body, and I'm like, what's that? Why is that? What? And then you just go through the analysation of am I at is it actually sore? Is it just like tweaked? Did I do something bad? How am I gonna navigate this? What other movements are gonna hurt it? And then you spend the rest of the show navigating that tweak.

[19:25] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[19:26] Karli Dinardo: So it is very much a ying and a yang, but yeah I think that's also what's cool and also a growing experience for me to be able to acknowledge oh my hip doesn't feel good right now do I think this is detrimental to push through no okay so how do I navigate that today like what do I have to focus on or what do I have to slightly adjust in my approach so that I'm not making it worse but that I can still be authentic and present and show up as a performer in each moment.

[20:00] Matt Rodin: Yeah I definitely know that for sure especially with the voice stuff like it's I know that feeling so well where all of a sudden you're like oh that didn't hit the same pocket today.

[20:09] Karli Dinardo: Correct what what is that gonna am I gonna be able to get there for this thing later on? Like am I gonna be able to maintain is this the hardest and forgive me this is a this is an honest question though is this the hardest dance job you've had because I know like I mean West Side's obviously very hard and I know Moulin Rouge was not easy either but is this like the most challenging it's a hard it's a hard thing to compare because the structures of the shows are so different.

[20:43] Karli Dinardo: Right. Insofar as West Side aside because as a woman in the show you have plenty of breaks so what you do is very difficult but there are a lot of holes when you have moments yeah right right to either cool down warm up stretch, recover all the things. Um but again, I'm not taking away how hard that is as well, because it's very different. Um with Moulin Rouge, I feel like it's complicated because again, even those shows are so different from each other, and then you add dance and it's oh my god. And it's like the difference with dancing to both of the other shows is that because we are 16 principles on stage, there is no downtime.

[21:30] Matt Rodin: Right.

[21:31] Karli Dinardo: And each person's track is so different from another. And so for instance, I have a nice moment after the opening number. Like that first quarter of act one in my track is not like we explode with the opening number, and then I have a second with like ding into then big city mine, where it's like very beautifully paced, and I have time to make sure my body is where I want it to be for then the rest of the show, because then that's it, it doesn't stop. And so everybody has different little pockets, but there isn't a moment where I ever go back to my dressing room. There isn't a moment where like in those moments, I have time to go to the bathroom if I need to and get water if I need to, do my change, fix my hair, do the makeup changes, and then I'm side stage again.

There isn't like a right, oh I can grab a book or I can do some tasks, or there is not a moment where it's like we're out of the show, and so I think that makes it very different because it's like an express train that doesn't stop, and then you're changing costumes sometimes, which is fun sometimes, right?

[22:36] Matt Rodin: It's totally certainly fun to get on the train and just like ride it through.

[22:40] Karli Dinardo: A hundred percent. There's something thrilling about that. Absolutely, and then that also forces you to be present because there's no time to not be there, or you're ripping costumes off your body because you have 15 seconds to get back on stage in an entirely different, full head to toe body costume. So again, that's the stuff that I think makes it even more challenging because movement-wise with Rouge and Ham, like they're all very hard shows physically too. It's just that they're structured differently.

[23:09] Karli Dinardo: And in my experience within the ensemble, it's like you play the role of the ensemble who's also responsibility it is to like support the principles. You know, there is a lot of there's a lot more elements to how it's structured, whereas with us, we are the whole show.

[23:27] Matt Rodin: So it's you guys, right?

[23:30] Karli Dinardo: Yeah, that definitely makes it different. How different are the tracks now from what it was in California, and also from what the original was? We were because with that was one of the things that we kept wondering about was we're like, oh, I wonder if you know, obviously, more specifically, and we can get into this, you know, was that role traditionally played by someone who identifies as female. Um, like there definitely was I that was one of the things that was really striking was the sort of gender expression of the whole show, which I think we can we can go there in a second. But I'm first curious about like the tracking, you know, is your track something that that has that's that's that track and it was always that way, or it was like, no, we're picking the right people for the right numbers, and we're gonna bring this combination of people together and sort of figure out where people fit.

[24:19] Karli Dinardo: I think the original A was three acts long. So what? Uh-huh. So insofar as our version, it is just very different. I did not know that. It was originally three acts. It was Bob's you want a ballet, I'll give you a ballet. Um which I'm I mean, I'm obsessed with, and and everything that we've been able to see from the original or hear about has just been fascinating. Um but obviously Wayne was like, We're not doing three acts, so we were in two acts. And I think that the way it was originally structured was that yes, they were all principals, but Wayne and Annie were like them the top tier of principal. Huh. And so then it kind of trickled down after that, where they basically like did most of the features, so to speak.

Um and hearing Wayne talk about that was really, really cool as well. And so I think for his interpretation, he was hoping to um make it more so that everybody, like the whole company, it was more evenly distributed between the group, so that everybody had two or three features, um, where the audience could kind of like get to know them and and identify them in very specific ways, and then it then makes the show more sustainable because it's not just carried by one or two people.

[25:45] Matt Rodin: Right.

[25:46] Karli Dinardo: So that was that was the intention of this time around. So where it differs from the original quite drastically in that way. So I I don't think that there's any one person where it's like this track is exactly as it was in the original. Like that's very much like like Wayne's track is broken up into like I think two people do his things or maybe three for depending on certain things. So that's kind of cool as well, to be like, oh yeah, this was originally done by so and so, but now it's done by so and so, and like there's no there's not necessarily a consistent true line.

[26:21] Matt Rodin: Right, there's no carryover, and and gender wise, I imagine that's the same.

[26:25] Karli Dinardo: Um it's that that's mostly the genders we we we break gender a couple times in the show in terms of I think from how it was traditionally done originally. Um like for instance, like in Gotcha, like Colton and I are the pimps, um, and that was typically done by two men. So that that's super cool. Um obviously trumpet solo. So I think that it was it's fun, it's super fun to be able to play around that parameter from the past and like do it in in the way we're doing it now.

[26:58] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and I think that was one of the things I loved so much about it was that it it did feel obviously, you know, there's an acknowledgement of people's genders, but it does kind of feel genderless, the whole piece.

[27:08] Karli Dinardo: It does sort of feel like it lives in this in between space that it doesn't really matter. It's like it's just about the bodies.

[27:15] Matt Rodin: Exactly.

[27:15] Karli Dinardo: And I think that's what's really cool about like the group of people that are on stage as well in our entire company on stage and off stage, because like what is gender and what is masculine and what is feminine, and that is something that yes, we're definitely talking about more now nowadays, but that's something that has always existed, and it's just cool to do movement that allows us to find the individual expression connected to intention rather than what is masculine and what is feminine.

[27:46] Matt Rodin: And it was cool to think, oh, they were doing this movement in whatever the 70s or whenever this was. Like that's crazy.

[27:53] Karli Dinardo: Correct. Crazy.

[27:56] Matt Rodin: It's I mean, it's and it's so it is the other thing I was really surprised about was I thought I was coming to see a Bob Fosse review. I thought I was gonna see I gotcha. I thought I was gonna come see Steam Heat. I thought I was coming to see like the numbers from the shows. And it was just gonna be you know what I'm saying? Like number number, not like with the songs from the shows. I was what I was not expecting was to have the choreography with a new sort of container. Because that's what it feels like is that it's like, oh, I'm like, I recognize that core like that looks like cabaret, but it's a fully different song now.

[28:35] Karli Dinardo: Yeah. Or do you know what I'm saying? Like that to me was quite a like it was that was shocking in a good way. I think that's what's I think that's what's really cool about the show in terms of Wayne always talks about how he just wants people to learn about Bob and to know him more because again because it is a piece that has existed and in terms of it's not new.

[29:03] Karli Dinardo: So we're talking about something that is dated in a way that you know we don't really talk about in the context of now so much anymore. And so we're not the history, Bob's history and legacy and something that was really cool to have the Fosse legacy as well involved with was how what what are people learning about him and his work and and I and Wayne always says I hope they get to know him better by the end of our show. And I think that's really cool because people don't know what originally was in the production of Dancing versus what was presented in like the Fosse show that existed as well as a musical.

[29:42] Matt Rodin: Exactly.

[29:42] Karli Dinardo: So a lot of people like, oh that's originally from there. It's like, actually, no, that's originally from Dancing, which is super cool to like learn about. And I feel like that's something that again, we don't because it was a review style musical, we don't know that necessarily off the top of our head. That's not specified anywhere. So it has been really cool to learn about the legacy and the history in a way that feels like we are sharing with audiences nowadays, to be like Crunchy Grenola Suite, Dancing Man, Sing Sing Sing. They were all in the original production of Dancing.

[30:20] Matt Rodin: Whoa.

[30:22] Karli Dinardo: And Fosse. Fosse's a different, but Fosse is more of a review. Like Fosse is the more review version of that.

[30:28] Matt Rodin: Huh.

[30:33] Karli Dinardo: Okay. Wow. And wait, are any of these songs original? Like for the show?

[30:40] Karli Dinardo: Uh that's a great question. You know, with some I I have a few questions myself with music. I don't have all the answers, but I don't know if I don't know if they were created for Dancing, or if that was just the first time that they were used in the context within Bob's work.

[30:59] Matt Rodin: Mm-hmm.

[31:00] Karli Dinardo: Um but like Dancing Man, that's the first one.

[31:05] Matt Rodin: Wait, I mean, what's what's that? What's that from?

[31:07] Karli Dinardo: It's from Dancing.

[31:09] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[31:10] Karli Dinardo: So then probably probably that's what that's where that it was made for this for this show. And I don't I you know what? I need to look into this. I'm actually super curious. I was having this conversation with a friend a couple of nights ago, and I'm I'm I really want to know. So I it's funny you mentioned this because it's just reaffirming that I need to ask those questions at work. But um the song I sing, Let It Ride by Melissa Manchester, Annie sang that in the original, a different interpretation of, but that song, even though it's Melissa Manchester's it is her song, that actually was sung in the original, which is kind of really cool as well.

[31:47] Matt Rodin: Right.

[31:47] Karli Dinardo: Hmm. So there are a lot of pieces, but not necessarily exactly the same. Like America, the section America existed in the original in a very different way. Um I'm sure it was very different. I'm sure it was very different. And so it's like within the context of our um revival, it's like we've maintained that that's the the number exists in just a slightly different way, but a lot there are a lot of like percussion. This this um percussion one, two, three, and four, that all existed in the original production of Dancing. Um it's it's really interesting. A lot of things have been on it insofar as in terms of a revival, like doing again, and then there are also chunks of things that are new in terms of Big City.

[32:39] Matt Rodin: Even the choreography?

[32:40] Karli Dinardo: No, all of it's Bob's choreography.

[32:43] Matt Rodin: Okay, that's what I thought.

[32:44] Karli Dinardo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. That was really every step we do is Bob's choreography, but just in terms of what you were saying, in terms of the Mindhair choreography that you can identify being with a different song in Spring Chicken, right? That's the new section in terms of Wayne um paying respect to Bob's like film career and the way that that all links together.

[33:03] Matt Rodin: So that wasn't even in the original production of Dancing.

[33:06] Karli Dinardo: No, that whole section.

[33:10] Matt Rodin: Oh, that's really cool.

[33:14] Karli Dinardo: Wow. Oh, that's really cool. So, what was your relationship? I mean, this is obviously gonna be hard to answer now, but I'm curious. You know, you're you're you've been saying, like, I we want to tell Bob's story, want people to know Bob more. What was your relationship with Fosse pre this, even hearing that this was coming in, even this like the audition for this, like pre knowing anything about Dancing, what was your sort of you know, vision of Fosse?

[33:45] Karli Dinardo: Actually, this is super easy for me to answer because I didn't ever think that that would be a part of my career because I'm not I don't really know. I I don't um it's always something that I admired and I had a great appreciation for, but it wasn't something I ever thought that I would be doing because I don't I don't look the way that they look. I don't I don't have the body type, I'm not the tall, I'm not the height, like all of the type factors would mean that I wouldn't even be considered. So it was just something I had always accepted as like uh oh, like similar to being a showgirl. That's not something I'm ever gonna have in my career. Very equivalent of where I was like, oh, beautiful, stunning, love watching it. Nothing I'm gonna do because that's not how I am in this place. That's not the artist I am. So, and not necessarily because I didn't want to do the choreography, but just because what I would see.

[34:35] Matt Rodin: Yeah, right.

[34:36] Karli Dinardo: It's not how I look. So um, it's always something that I from afar was so like loved, but didn't really consider much more than that. And so when the audition came in, um I actually said to my agent, I was like, um, I don't think this is for me. Like clearly they're gonna do what they do, you know. She was just like, no, they said it's looking for like different things and they want everyone to come in. And I was like, uh we'll see. Um, very suspicious, and like did not end up expect it to be that way. So he was also like at a crazy time, so I was like, I don't know how time's gonna be sure. And she was like, Great, I've confirmed you. Like, cool, okay, cool. See you there. I'm guessing I'm going, yeah, right.

And I'm so glad that I did because in the audition room, even it was very clear that um Wayne was just wanting to see us and how we as artists turned up in the space, and it wasn't necessarily um it did feel like they were looking for something unique and different, and no he didn't want anyone to be the same. So um that was a a reaffirmation of like, oh, this is something I actually really do enjoy doing physically. Like I had a lot of fun doing the choreography, so um, yeah, I'm I'm super grateful for this revival because otherwise I don't know if I would have had the chance to.

[35:48] Matt Rodin: So now what is your what's your understanding of Bob? Like now having been with the piece for quite some time and doing it out of town and then bringing it in, working what is your what's the story in your head? Like who is he in your head?

[36:12] Karli Dinardo: Well, I don't know if anyone I mean anyone in my position who didn't know him and who gets all of their source information from either other people's stories or books or videos. I don't think I'm ever gonna be able to accurately say one way or the other, but I will say that I feel very grateful to be in this time approaching the material in this way because I feel like as a woman, I'm grateful to have experiences that I've heard from from a range of people from a range of ages, in a range of different experiences that I can choose how I connect to, and I think that is super unique. Um because that it wouldn't have been that way. You know what I mean? In in another circumstance. So I feel very specifically grateful to be able to approach this work kind of from an objective perspective. Um where I just get to be an artist and a vessel without there being anything else that players.

[37:22] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[37:23] Karli Dinardo: So interesting. And so therefore, as an artist, it's it allows so much more exploration to what I think he intended. And obviously that's always going to be subjective, but of course. How you how I hear stories from my own lived experience from what I identify, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. You're A B C D, and this person's A B C D or G-H, you know, like, and how does that how is that the same? How is that different? How do I connect to each part and right? How does that land? Where does that land in me?

[38:01] Matt Rodin: Right.

[38:01] Karli Dinardo: Exactly. And so that's something I really enjoy getting to play with, and therefore feeling closer to Bob in a way where I feel like he's where you don't know that you would have felt that way if it was if you were around in that particular time.

[38:17] Matt Rodin: That's so fascinating.

[38:19] Karli Dinardo: Yeah.

[38:19] Matt Rodin: That's so cool.

[38:21] Karli Dinardo: I think so. It's super, it's super um unique. Like it's a very strange circumstance to talk about because it's again, he's not with us, so it's all hypothetically speaking, you know, to an extent, but the way that the people who did work with him and who were in the spaces with him speak so passionately about their experiences and how he was as an artist and as a director and as a creator, and how those how he worked how well how he was with different people very differently. As a broad umbrella without going into any specifics, that ill alone is fascinating to me from like a human um observation perspective, where I'm just like, Oh, this is fascinating. Like he was so smart with how he went about getting what he wanted based on how he was able to navigate certain things.

[39:17] Matt Rodin: So again, all just fueling to the point of feeling like we have exploration, and we I'm grateful for the ability to have curiosity and to then play within that. Um given all of the wealth set of knowledge we've been given.

[39:35] Karli Dinardo: So that's such a cool interpretation that I never would have thought of that that it's just that's such a that's so well articulated. And now you're the cover of the fucking playbill, which is you know, it's just like because you're right, you're like in uh in in another time in another place, like there's a good chance that that wouldn't have been the case, you know, that and and your and your experience, good, bad, or indifferent, of what this has been and this process, because I certainly know that there's no process that's all rainbows and roses. Um that this process can be this process, and it's not it's it's not I I I I don't want to say tainted, that's the wrong word, but it's like it just gets to be when it is.

[40:20] Karli Dinardo: That's exactly right.

[40:23] Matt Rodin: It gets to be what it is.

[40:39] Karli Dinardo: How has it been overall? I mean, obviously, you know, you're you're now we're now we're in the run, so it's a it's and you're open, it's like you know, you're now it's a new beast because it's about finding the groove and the rhythm and what your body needs and what what you're eating before and after, and what time you go to bed and what time you wake up and you know, all those kinds of things.

[40:57] Karli Dinardo: Yeah. But process wise, how was it overall?

[41:02] Karli Dinardo: I think this process was was much smoother insofar as we've we'd done it, you know. There was an element of the entire onstage company has been the same since our workshop. So there's a sense of familiarity. I know. Crazy, right? There's a sense of we've all been through a lot together. So there is that um camaraderie, right? And also we know each other well enough now where we are kind of a family and it's family, right. We whether it's about like just understanding, oh, this person, I know what this means. I'm gonna give them space or the dynamic, right?

[41:38] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[41:38] Karli Dinardo: That that isn't new insofar as we all know how to nav we've all we get it. We're all s we all know when we hit delirium, we all know it's just the there's a sense of you know people's triggers, right? You know, yeah yeah. Fully. And so we have like a lingo or a second hand where it's a little um it just makes it easier, I think, in a lot of ways. Um and so again with the show, um, we had definitely there were were changes from San Diego to Broadway, but again, because we've all we all had done the show, it didn't feel um crazy or it was very much like we knew where we were gonna start, we knew where we were gonna finish, how that looked may shift, but at the same time. And then just refining, right?

It was just more of the like refining and the details and and working on the things that we knew they had like flagged as we're gonna look at this section, we're gonna be looking looking at this section, we're gonna redo this section. Great, cool. But also then at the back of our minds, we all knew what we were signing up for insofar as like, okay, well, I'm gonna run to Pilates before class um for rehearsal today. I'm gonna go do cryo after today. Like the process to trying to get ready for the show was very present amongst us all because we knew from the beginning. From the beginning, exactly. So it definitely allowed us to just enter with a different mindset. Um, and our incredible understudy team bar two were new.

So then there it were then that element of like kind of expanding our family and welcoming more people in and being like asking, like, you know, just how how it works, where it felt nice to be able to say to them, like, ask whatever you want. Like not stressed in my process where everything felt new and we were still trying to learn all the things.

[43:36] Karli Dinardo: It felt just a little more settled because we had an idea of what it was gonna be, which is nice.

[43:42] Matt Rodin: Yeah, yeah.

[43:43] Karli Dinardo: Um, okay, so then here's my next sort of inquiry, which is from when you started the because when did you guys start when did when do you when was your first audition? Like when did when like was it post-pandemic or mid-pandemic?

[43:57] Karli Dinardo: It was right right after Broadway reopened. I think we auditioned in September of 21.

[44:03] Matt Rodin: Okay, so we're not talking about a pre-pandemic, a pause and then restart.

[44:07] Karli Dinardo: No, it was the it was the first time. From that time.

[44:10] Matt Rodin: Okay.

[44:10] Karli Dinardo: So from oh, that's interesting. It was like the first thing that you wow. Other than interesting. Remounting Rouge and doing that, like the first audition I was dancing in.

[44:21] Karli Dinardo: Like post-business.

[44:23] Matt Rodin: Yep.

[44:24] Karli Dinardo: Okay, so from then to now, how are you different?

[44:34] Karli Dinardo: Um the short answer to that question is that I feel like I have shed 20 skins since then. It's I feel like I'm an entirely different human.

[44:50] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[44:51] Karli Dinardo: For sure.

[44:52] Matt Rodin: Really?

[44:53] Karli Dinardo: Yeah.

[44:56] Matt Rodin: Lessons?

[44:57] Karli Dinardo: Like just general in every way imaginable, in every way possible across every category, in every underlying layer of anything you could possibly insert, it is correct.

[45:15] Karli Dinardo: And that is something actually that made opening night super sentimental. Because it is one of those milestone moments where you can be really reflective as like a beginning and an end, um, or as a marker one and marker two in a journey.

[45:32] Karli Dinardo: Um and because my journey with this show has been so parallel to the question you asked me in terms of like how much I've grown and changed, um it's so insanely aligned.

[45:48] Karli Dinardo: Um it definitely was a moment of like wow, look how far I've come from even just this time span, let alone zooming out further and further back.

[45:59] Matt Rodin: Um and then what's the biggest change?

[46:02] Karli Dinardo: I mean, like what's the biggest what's been the biggest shift, I guess?

[46:05] Karli Dinardo: Life.

[46:07] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[46:08] Karli Dinardo: Yeah, just life. I mean, I feel like it's almost impossible for anyone to not have changed after living what we've living through what we've lived through.

[46:16] Karli Dinardo: Um so coming off the back of that, and then making the decisions to live, you know, when you just decide that there are certain things that like I want to be the best version of myself every day.

[46:30] Karli Dinardo: So in order to do that, that means that I have to be courageous and I have to try new things, and I have to believe, you know, all the things that we speak about all the time, but putting them into actual practice when life is so short and it felt like we were constantly being reminded almost every day of how short life was and is, and how tomorrow's not promised, and then it's as we come back to work and as we come back to life and we come back to what was routine and then what you're like, ah, that doesn't work anymore.

[47:03] Karli Dinardo: This is this doesn't feel right, and all of the growth that changes from those scenes, um hu yeah, huge growing lessons, huge learning lessons.

[47:16] Karli Dinardo: Yeah, any hurdle, any frigging curveball, and all the things. We just really bundled it up in a nice big. It was all happening at once, yeah.

[47:26] Karli Dinardo: And I and I find, and I don't know if this is true for you, like, I I mean, I certainly how do I articulate this? There's always growth, right? I'm I feel like I'm always learning and always changing, and like that that change is the only constant really in my life.

[47:42] Karli Dinardo: That is my favorite sentence.

[47:45] Matt Rodin: Right? Like, so let's use that as a bottom line. Like, change is always constant.

[47:50] Karli Dinardo: Sometimes I find, and I don't know what it is about this. Maybe you have some insight on this. Like when I'm working on a show, for whatever reason, it seems like those periods from rehearsal to closing or rehearsal to opening, or whatever you want to, you know, whatever, or for from the first audition until the last performance, whatever you want to, you know, gauge.

[48:13] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[48:16] Karli Dinardo: There is something, it feels it, there's something that feels accelerated in the sense that I feel like there's more I was gonna say like more lessons, but I don't think that's true.

[48:32] Karli Dinardo: It's like having the having to have the discipline of a show and the cons and having something consistent like that, maybe having that as the bedrock, it creates a sort of like space above that for other exploration to happen.

[48:53] Karli Dinardo: Because there are things certainly happening in that process that are paralleling what's happening in my own life, and it's gonna bring up things that probably I wouldn't have come up otherwise.

[49:05] Karli Dinardo: And so it's sort of just like it flows, and I feel like at the end of a process, I'm always like, holy shit, I am so different. Like you said, I'm different in every way. I shed 20 skins from when I started to when I'm done with this.

[49:19] Karli Dinardo: And the things that I've learned and the realizations that I've had, it happens at like, and I get again, I don't know that this is true. Maybe it's just that like because there's a snapshot of time, because it has a sort of because it has markers, it feels like more quantitative.

[49:36] Karli Dinardo: Um but working on something, if I I love working because I love I love that. To me, it's like so juicy to get to feel like and even if it's painful, because a lot of times it is that there's a lot that the growing pains, there's something really juicy about getting to dig your teeth in and put in the work, yeah, to then come out on the other side being like, who that was something.

[50:11] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[50:13] Karli Dinardo: One million percent yes. It is um it's fascinating because I think something that was also very humbling is the fact that throughout my process and my journey over the last year and a half, um, with the show, there's something to revisiting material as you're in very different places.

[50:43] Karli Dinardo: And so I think for our whole company, that was something that was super interesting to then navigate and explore as like, well, I'm not specifically for Broadway in rehearsals. Like, like I'm not the person I was a year ago when we were in rehearsals for San Diego.

[50:58] Karli Dinardo: So what do I now? What are my instincts now? What if what is my artist telling me? Or what am I?

[51:05] Matt Rodin: And your body too.

[51:07] Karli Dinardo: Your body's different too. I'm I'm a different person. Like all the things are different.

[51:11] Karli Dinardo: And so some people it it's cool to be able to figure that out for yourself in a space where you know everyone else is navigating the same thing in their own way.

[51:23] Karli Dinardo: And that was super um inspiring to me because it allows a bit of um you give yourself more permission for it to be okay when you know everyone else is going through it in their own way.

[51:37] Karli Dinardo: Um and that's something that I think is somehow linked to Bob's work as well, where it just everybody felt uncomfortable insofar as being pushed in a way that what was uncomfortable to them at some part in the process, if not every part of the process, and I think as an artist, it's cool to look back on to think, oh wow, at that time that was a challenge for me, whether it be technically, whether it be emotionally or intentionally, like whatever the circumstance, but that was something I was navigating, and now I don't feel that way.

[52:15] Karli Dinardo: Now it's this, or now you know that's something that is right. It changes to allow all of it to exist at the same time.

[52:24] Karli Dinardo: Um and especially doing the show in three very different circumstances. Like doing a workshop um is one thing, and I was doing double duty at the time, so again, that is very specific.

[52:39] Karli Dinardo: And then we rehearse for an out of town, which I did double duty for a few weeks at the beginning. And then when you say bye to something and you close a chapter that's been such a big part of your life and then all of a sudden it's just this new thing.

[52:54] Karli Dinardo: It's kind of like okay. And then that's another transition in an entirely different that and welcome yeah right. And then being able to be present to just focus on one thing and and the the privilege of that and being like, oh this is a blessing.

[53:09] Karli Dinardo: Amazing all the things and it being hard and it being pain all the things wrapped into one. And then we were lucky to be in San Diego which was um at least like we went from the middle of New York winter to like beautiful weather.

[53:21] Matt Rodin: I know.

[53:22] Karli Dinardo: And so again that allowed us to have a specific experience together there, which I felt like it was we're at summer camp, you know it's kind of like we're at the beach in the morning that's what out of town feels like honey.

[53:34] Karli Dinardo: It's like you're in a gorgeous place doing a fun you're like it's camp. We're living in a hotel together. You're just like oh yeah I oh yeah summer camp true.

[53:41] Karli Dinardo: I loved I loved being able to feel like the a work life balance existed in a way that I hadn't experienced before there and that was like okay cool. And now this is an entirely different experience.

[53:54] Matt Rodin: Very different now.

[53:55] Karli Dinardo: Right. You're living in the city. You're like having to do life.

[53:58] Matt Rodin: Correct.

[53:59] Karli Dinardo: Right. So that is now it's just really special this is the first time I've been in a process since the beginning so it's been really cool to be able to feel that um the full journey of that.

[54:14] Matt Rodin: Right. That's yeah, that's well said. I also am curious, like I always am I always wonder, you know, obviously you said when you came to the city wide eyed really scratched the surface of what you knew what Broadway, quote unquote Broadway was your idea of it was you know, obviously now you're a very different person than you were when you moved to the city, but I'm curious like what has what has the biggest sort of shift in inside of you been in not only you know I I'm certainly curious to hear about your sort of understanding of the industry and the business and the I the quote unquote idea of Broadway as a whole and how has that shifted for you, but also you know, internally what you know, is it I I uh the only example I can come up with is like insecure to more secure.

You know what I mean? Like what has been the what's the biggest difference between the girl that moved to the city and the woman that's dancing eight times a week and on the cover of the dance and playbill?

[55:28] Karli Dinardo: Well I know that's a hefty question, I know.

[55:32] Matt Rodin: You're really um we're okay.

[55:36] Karli Dinardo: We're going deep, Carly.

[55:37] Matt Rodin: Okay, this is it's me, honey. Listen, I know, and I should have been more prepared, I guess, insofar as I'm I shouldn't be surprised.

[55:44] Karli Dinardo: Um, well I think what's fascinating again in summary, because we're not gonna go in depth of the last 11 years of my time of view, but um I think what is very interesting to me as I reflect now as like the woman I am today, looking back at my journey and at each point in the process that has been um full of like some really of the most incredible moments of my life and also some of the absolute worst.

[56:20] Karli Dinardo: Um, of course and I actually wrote a post um on opening of out of dancing as being an immigrant in this country and my process and how social media is you know a tool and we use it in the way that I use it in the way of a business tool, um, but that it is very much like a highlights reel, and a lot of people um don't know a lot of the struggles of the journey of my of my journey because I only choose to share certain things or and or I didn't um I am also a very private person, which is a very interesting duality where I just don't want to talk about it.

[57:01] Karli Dinardo: Um and so I just kind of allowed space once to be like this was really hard. This was really hard, and and being an immigrant in this country is not easy, and something that I really um hadn't put into words in that way ever.

[57:18] Karli Dinardo: And I had a lot of other immigrants reach out and be like, thank you for saying what you said, because I I can connect to this in this way, and I understand as soon as I read that I started crying because it's like you don't understand unless you go through it in a way, and just allowing it to be present and like say it out loud was something that I needed to do for myself as well.

[57:40] Karli Dinardo: So that was absolutely super interesting in terms of the reflection of like then to now. Um, but I think when I moved here, I was very hungry and very um I was super determined, and I was not afraid of hard work, and I was 100% gonna do it.

[58:01] Karli Dinardo: Um, in whatever way was my own way, and I was just ready to be a sponge and soak everything up, and I just wanted to experience everything, and I wanted to become the best artist I could be, and I wanted to be in the room with the best because that's the only way for me that I felt like I could grow in a way where I I wasn't ever interested in being the best just to be the best.

[58:25] Karli Dinardo: It was always I want to be in a room of people who are the best so that I'm inspired to be the best I can be, and I felt like that was here, and so I threw myself into school, and it's interesting to see how I've actually come back to a lot of parts of myself that I either lost or chose to let go of along the way now later on in life, because a lot of the journey of being an immigrant is like you have to be more American, or like if you walk into a room and you have an accent, they're not gonna hire you. So you need to be American and sound American, and it's super interesting in terms of personality and who you are as a person to honor who you are, but also change who you are in order to be more accepted.

So that was something throughout my journey, I definitely had what influxes of and different points of realizations of like, well, but this is who I am, and I'm proud of who I am, and I actually I'm not American, and that's part of what's really special about me, is that I'm not American. So and returning to that, and a returning to who I am and where I've come from and culturally what I choose to be true rather than just because I'm in America accepting certain things the way that they are done here. Um and that has been a really interesting process, specifically when I started um dance captaining and swinging, where it was a matter of communication styles, the way in which things are done, quote unquote, when you were talking about the industry and my journey up until that point, because that was when I was on a green card, the system was very brutal to me, insofar as it wasn't uh I walked in the room and was discovered, and I that was not the journey at all.

And honestly, like I don't think I would have ever wanted it to be, but it's like uh the hustle and the grind and the work and the the rejection and the the way that New York's always spoken about it being like a hard place to live where it can really beat you down, but at the same time it can also be the most uplifting incredible experience ever. I truly experienced the full scale of that, where it was like, you know, I was that person signing up in the snow on a non-equity list at four in the morning, and then doing the the the circuit of like sign up on this list, sign up on this list, sign up on this list, have my little friggin' suitcase and or backpack and or both of four different things, and the shoes and the this and the resumes and the headshots, and then stapling them together and cutting them out, and all to just hope that I'd be either transferred onto a different list, type typecast in to at least walk into the room.

And more often than not, I didn't. More often than not that the list wasn't honored, or I was number 120 and they only allowed a hundred people in, or they only allowed five people in, or it was always those things, or someone transferred the list but only started from the second page. And so then all the little things that when you've experienced, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And you just have to kind of add it to your toolbox and be like, okay, well, now I know, or now I know what that is, or now I've experienced this thing. And so I'd then go take a dance class as a way to cope with what was happening, or I'd go and watch a show, Russia show to be in reinspire and remember why I'm doing that in the first place.

So when the alarm goes off at the in the morning when you're just like you've had five hours sleep because by the time you got home and you did this and you did that, and then you go and do laundry at a at a laundromat and you come back and you're like, okay, great, here we go again. Being so far away from my family, like the sacrifices, always having to remember why. Um, which was all it always strikes a nerve. Um but coming, I think it's allowed me to really appreciate every single thing that's happened in a way that feels specific to me. And that's something I am so grateful for because there's never a moment where I haven't fully understood the weight or the gratitude or the privilege or you know the the size of every little thing.

And often it's taken me a long time since being on my green card to kind of like slow that down. That like ticking clock idea that a lot of immigrants have on visas because you are constantly hustling, hustling, hustling because you don't want to be deported and you want to be able to get the visa and you want to be able to stay and extend and renew and it's something that you have to really unlearn after you've done it for such a long time because it's it it it is a thief of joy in a way because you don't really get to appre like be present for much. So I think that's been something in returning to myself and the 17-year-old Carly that moved here. Um returning to many aspects of her um has been really amazing to find and to like oh wow, like this is I had to go through all of that to be able to choose this and to be this version of myself, which is really cool.

[1:04:20] Matt Rodin: So beautifully said, and I have a couple things I want to reflect back. Um of the reasons that I love you and I have loved you since I've known you is because I've always known you to be that that like hard. I like you put in the motherfucking work and you show up a hundred and fifty percent for whether you're getting paid a Broadway salary or there's no dollars at all. Like you are fully committed, always, always. And that again, like that's just something I have so much respect for. And that's one of the reasons I love you. And because I you just see that, you know, like you see that in obviously in the work, but also in, you know, who you are. Um it's yeah, I just feel very privileged to have been a witness and have been a part of that and been in your orbit because I just I know that to be true of you.

So to hear you reflect that is really fucking awesome. Cause I'm like, yeah, great. You know that you're a fucking hard ass worker, you know, that you you really you really do the thing. And to know that, you know, like you said, like you fucking hustled. Like that this shit is this did not this did not come easy. And the sacrifices that you had to make to get here were not light. You did not just walk in the room and get discovered. It's not that was not your journey, which listen, if that's someone else's journey, I'm thrilled for them. Congratulations, and I know that there are and I know that there are um challenges in that too, that there are there are struggles in that too. And I just I'm so psyched and proud and grateful to hear that you're like at a place now where, and not that you've ever been this kind of person, but you have never been someone who strikes me as like taking a victim mentality of feeling like everything's out to get you.

You know, it's like everything has been fuel for you, and that doesn't mean you don't feel sad or feel defeated, but it feels like it's all like you said, like, okay, I'm gonna go take a class, okay, I'm gonna go rush a show. Like it's turning it into power, honoring how the feeling comes, yeah, but then taking it and then showing up as your full self in whatever it is that moment or that day.

[1:04:20] Karli Dinardo: So that's the first piece I want to reflect back to you. I think the second piece is I really identify with this idea of coming back to yourself. I really feel so touched and moved by that because that's been my experience too. That when I moved here, I felt like I just felt like I I over the first few years of being here, the first probably five, six, seven years, I felt like I was drifting from my my true self in that I wanted to be, I wanted to be in the room, I wanted to be in the show. I I wanted to work. And so it was a lot about fitting my square peg in that round hole. There was a lot of shaving down my uniqueness so that I was marketable, so that I was palatable, so that people want so that I could have friends, so that people would hang out with me, right?

Like it's not just in the work, it's also in the social and the real life pieces too. Um, and sh, you know, offering my skills for free, right? That's another piece of it too, is like showing up and doing things for free because you just want to be in the room and you just want to be a part of the community. Absolutely. And I have, and I feel so strongly, and I'm so psyched to hear that you're on the same page about this. That like in the last few years, and I don't know if it was like, I feel like it was either like right before the pandemic, or definitely I think the pandemic had a lot to do with this. I don't quite know how to articulate what it had to do with this, but I feel like now there's a couple pieces.

Walking into rooms, I certainly feel more confident in the sense that I'm going in there, I'm not asking for permission. I'm like, this is what I can provide, this is who I am. I'm gonna do me. And if you want to work with me, love that. Love that. And if not, that's all good too. Because I don't want you to, I don't want you to want to work with me if I'm showing up as someone that I'm not, right? If I'm going in the room and being something that I'm not, and then you want to work with me, well, then I have to show up as something that I'm not every day. Correct. That sounds like a fucking nightmare. And I've done that. I've done that. And the other piece of that is, and this is something that's only recently come up in the last few weeks, months, is and again, I I just like I this makes me so happy people talk about is that like part of returning to that childhood self of mine, that kid, is that I feel like now my focus is returning to fun.

Is I'm like, how can I have fun in whatever it is that I'm doing, right? Yeah. I'm certainly taking it seriously, I'm certainly putting in the work, et cetera, et cetera. But you can have fun at the same time. Yes, I want to find that childhood joy. Yeah was the reason I got into this in the first place. Yeah. It wasn't because I I certainly loved the hard work, but I it was fun. This was this was fun for me. And how can I carry that over in every aspect of my life? Oh right, like how can I find fun? How can I find fun in everything that I'm doing? Because I I otherwise, what's life's too short? Like, I what's what is the point? Correct. So I it I to hear it articulated in the set in the way of, oh, I'm returning to this like younger self, this younger version of me, to me, where that's resonating is I'm like, right, I'm finding fun again in places and ways that I have never I haven't had that in a really long, long time.

[1:10:19] Karli Dinardo: Yeah. Um as the self we are now, which is even cooler because you guys you get to bring important chillas back, but they don't look the same because you're not the same. They don't look the same because you're not the same, and I am certainly not the same. And I and it's funny because I'm thinking about like when we met and we were we were we were kids, you know. I mean we're still kids. But but but but we were you know, there's like we've changed a lot, and that's why I think it was so gratifying to see you in the show because it was like right, you're a woman now. Like you're like, you know, like you you have real ownership of your body, and and that's not to say that like I know that everybody's got shit and we're all going through stuff.

Like that's the real that's the real world. Yeah, but it is so it's so gratifying. And I know you've had this experience of seeing your friends in shows. It's so so gratifying to go and watch someone and be like, yeah, you're fucking slaying. Like, it's like it feels so good to watch your friends like have put in the work, have been there and seen even just small pieces of that journey, and then to witness like them step into the grace and the greatness of where they are now and who they are now. It is so so special. And that is like one of my favorite things about being in the city and being in the community and being like who I am and where I am in my life, is that now I get to have experiences like going to you see you and dancing. Cause it is uh yeah, I I just that's all to say I love you.

[1:12:01] Matt Rodin: That's all that's that's what I'm that's what I'm trying to say.

[1:12:03] Karli Dinardo: Oh my God I love you so much. And thank you for this this has been this has been so good and and you're so well spoken and just oh makes me so makes me so happy. I just love you.

[1:12:15] Karli Dinardo: It made me so happy. This was the best truly thank you for having me.

[1:12:23] Matt Rodin: Thanks for listening. See you next time.