This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally. And I am Andrew DeWolf. And welcome to Musicals with Cheese,

[0:12] Andrew DeWolf: a podcast where I try to get Andrew to like musical theater. And today we've got an extra special returning guest.

[0:16] Jesse McAnally: Oh, yeah. It's about time, too. I feel like it's been a while. It's been too long, but also I see them a lot. So it's a little different. It's like we have our own thing going on. So it doesn't feel that long, but I love having them on. Please join me in welcoming the host and creator of Musical Hell on YouTube and so many other things. It's Christi Esterle.

[0:38] Christi Esterle: Good to be back. Andrew's right. It's been too long.

[0:38] Jesse McAnally: It has been too long. You've been on the show numerous times.

[0:49] Christi Esterle: Yeah.

[0:47] Jesse McAnally: And you've never talked about a phantom property.

[0:47] Christi Esterle: No, I haven't, which is weird because I'm one of the huge, you know, bigger phantom nerds in Jess's circle.

[0:54] Jesse McAnally: So you are you actually like the musicals. And I think you like all the musicals, except maybe like the David Stoller.

[1:03] Christi Esterle: Well, yeah. So, yeah, it's kind of not just the musical itself, but the, you know, story in general through multiple incarnations, which is why I'm really excited to be talking about our subject today.

[1:13] Jesse McAnally: And that brings us to our subject today, where we're going to dive into a time machine almost a hundred years in the past.

[1:19] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, we're getting to that point where the dawn of film is a century.

[1:25] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Wow. Ago this week, we are talking about the Phantom of the Opera for Phantom May, but the 1925 version. Cue the music.

[1:32] Andrew DeWolf: The Phantom of the Opera is a film written by, and this is a mouthful, Walter Anthony, Elliott J. Clausson, Bernard McConville, Frank M. McCormick, Tom Reed, Raymond L. Schrock, Jasper Spearing, and Richard Walsh. None of them are credited.

[2:58] Jesse McAnally: What the fuck? They're none of them are credited. Not a single soul. There was there was a lot that went there was a lot that went on during the creation of this movie.

[3:03] Andrew DeWolf: There were issues.

[3:09] Jesse McAnally: So, yeah, there was issues. But also, like in these days, like, what do you write? Like, oh, he goes up the stairs and then he makes a face and then the title says this. So I get it. But even at the time, they were trying to not credit Gaston Leroux because they assumed this book had no copyright. And then he sued and he got money and then died two years later. But yeah, you know, but the film was directed by Rupert Julian, who is the credited director. But there are several uncredited directors, including Lon Chaney himself, Ernst Lemley and Edward Sedgwick.

[3:45] Andrew DeWolf: So we got four directors, a dozen writers didn't credit the original book, didn't credit anybody. The early Hollywood was a mess.

[3:53] Jesse McAnally: This is one of those movies where you look at the process of it and you're like, it's incredible that it, you know, came out as well as it did and holds up as well as it does. A lot of that, I think, is Lon Chaney himself. You know, I cannot I cannot praise him enough. He is the goat of cinematic phantoms.

[4:10] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, you know, we're talking scale. Lon Chaney is all the way up here. Then you kind of have this mid level, which is like, you know, Claude Rains, Charles Dance, Robert Englund, maybe Ramon Caramelou for talking pro shots.

[4:26] Jesse McAnally: And then like all the way down in the basement, you got Gerard Butler and Gillian Sands.

[4:26] Andrew DeWolf: So, oh, quite the kid in Phantom of the Mall.

[4:35] Jesse McAnally: I have opinions.

[4:35] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, these are good opinions. And I feel like that's not like a hardcore one. People are going to fight you on. I feel like most people are like, yeah, that's right.

[4:44] Jesse McAnally: Also, he's a local boy. Lon Chaney was born and raised in Colorado Springs out here.

[4:51] Andrew DeWolf: So and we do have a Lon Chaney theater in our old auditorium that deeply needs renovating. So I'm curious if they were like in Colorado Springs to put a statue of Lon Chaney, would they make him the man or make him like one of his thousand faces?

[5:07] Jesse McAnally: I would. You know what? If they were to do something like that, you know, I might do something, you know, where he's like holding his makeup kit or, you know, maybe have him or maybe looking, you know, maybe have him and like maybe like kind of do an abstract thing on the base where you have like all his different characters because, you know, they called him the man of the thousand faces. And he he obviously earned that. He not only did the Phantom, he did Quasimodo in the Hunchback of Notre Dame like a year or two before this. He was London after midnight. You've all seen the picture where he's got that creepy grin and like, yeah, so he's he was a fantastic makeup artist.

[5:42] Andrew DeWolf: So he was a great artist. But as most people like who do bring critiques to Lon Chaney, like living in the age of the silent era is that he had very little variety in characters like he would never play the leading man. He would always play the weird outcast and people thought like that was limiting on him. But I felt like he was so good at it.

[6:06] Jesse McAnally: He was very good at it. I mean, this, you know, this is he's, you know, there's a lot of, you know, silent movie stuff in there, you know, kind of, you know, kind of like Kathy says in Singing in the Rain where they're doing all the dumb show stuff. There's very a lot of that. But he does some fantastic, subtle work in this. There's a scene near the end where, you know, they've got the scorpion and the grasshopper thing where, you know, he tells her, you know, tells Christine, you know, if you're going to marry me, you turn the scorpion. And if you don't want to marry me, you're going to turn the grasshopper and blow up the entire opera house. There's a moment where she reaches for the grasshopper and you can just see him tense up like he's going, oh, my God, would she really rather do this than be with me? And it's just, you know, that, you know, that horror. And, you know, it's fantastic. I love him.

[6:53] Andrew DeWolf: I know it is more of a choice than the choice at the end of the Weber musical, where it's like either I kill your boyfriend and you end up with me or you choose to end up with me and I don't kill your boyfriend. What's the choice?

[7:09] Jesse McAnally: Oh, man, what a choice. I think kill him, man.

[7:09] Andrew DeWolf: But the version of the Phantom of the Opera that has been submitted to the National Film Registry and is the iconic one is not one that currently really comes out. This film has been through a lot of development and we have a very ugly version of it. The first cut of the film was previewed in Los Angeles on January 7th and 26th of 1925. Audience reactions were extremely negative and summed up the complaint of there's too much spook melodrama. Put in some gags to relieve the tension.

[7:41] Jesse McAnally: The 20s. And let's contextualize this. There is yet to be an American horror film at this point. This could even arguably said to be the first American horror film. So it was not something people were used to.

[7:54] Andrew DeWolf: But by March, the studio decided against the ending where the Phantom was basically redeemed by Christine kissing him and him dying of a broken heart. And they were like, no, we ain't doing that, which is now officially lost media. We will never see that. We've got some stills of it, but we don't have any of the footage, which I think is a shame.

[8:15] Jesse McAnally: We do have a lot of, you know, of the original cut, which is very much closer to the original novel. And there is I I'm terribly sorry. I have not. I've kind of coming on this very quickly, but I have not had a chance to look at like my collector's edition DVD. But there's like one that has like an earlier 1925 cut. I mean, it has the chase scene at the end, but it has a lot more of the original stuff in it as well. And really interesting to watch.

[8:46] Andrew DeWolf: It's interesting because there's so many different variations. So Universal immediately started seeing red flags in their head as soon as like, oh, negative reaction. We can't do that. Our next Marvel tentpole Universal horror film is not doing well. So they outright canceled the New York premiere and it was rushed back into production with a new script that focused more on Christine's love life.

[9:08] Jesse McAnally: Rupert Julian probably walked away from the production or was fired at this point. In any case, he was no longer involved with the film. And to salvage it, they called upon the journeyman that is a journeyman. Basically, they don't really know who it was. I think his name was Hoot Gibson, but basically all of that footage was cut out.

[9:30] Andrew DeWolf: Then Edward Sedgwick, who would turn out to be Buster Keaton's main cameraman, was assigned to direct and reshoot a bulk of the film. And the original screenwriters wrote new scenes at their request to Sedgwick. The film was then changed from the dramatic thrill that it originally was into a more romantic comedy with action elements, including a duel with Raoul and a new character called the Russian Count Ruboff, where Raoul gets shot, but it hits his belt so he survives.

[9:58] Jesse McAnally: This version was more akin to a Buster Keaton film, much more comedy version. It's a great, great show of people that don't understand what they are. So they premiered this version in San Francisco on April 26th of 1925, and it did not do well at all.

[10:15] Andrew DeWolf: I wonder why?

[10:17] Jesse McAnally: Booing it off the screen.

[10:19] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[10:21] Jesse McAnally: So what's funny about the story? I don't even understand. How do you even make it funny?

[10:25] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know, but there is, you know, in what I guess we would consider the, not even the final one, because there was like one more where they added some sound stuff, but in the one that's most common, they have this random stagehand who's doing pratfall stuff in several scenes just to add a bit of levity. He appears nowhere in the book.

[10:48] Jesse McAnally: We don't know where he came from.

[10:50] Andrew DeWolf: He's just there to...

[10:50] Jesse McAnally: I'm going to say he's the rat catcher. Fuck it.

[10:53] Andrew DeWolf: Except the actual rat catcher does come in later in the...

[10:57] Jesse McAnally: Oh, you're right. Shoot.

[10:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, so he's not. He's just the guy.

[11:00] Jesse McAnally: The funny guy. The funny man.

[11:04] Andrew DeWolf: And the third and final version resulted with basically everyone editing together every version that they had until it was an ugly hodgepodge, including revising the ending where he gets chased by an angry mob. And this quote unquote final version debuted September 6th, 1925 at the Astor Theater in New York City. And, you know, it was well received enough.

[11:29] Jesse McAnally: People thought it was fine, but they really thought this was going to be a big kind of like blockbuster, so to say. The Astor was not something you rented just for small events.

[11:41] Andrew DeWolf: And that was where we were there. And then a few years later, they revised it again and added sound to it. They just got Randos to voice over it, I think.

[11:54] Jesse McAnally: I think Lon Chaney, I think, actually had died by that point.

[11:58] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, he did.

[11:58] Jesse McAnally: He didn't live much past the advent of talkies, so...

[12:02] Andrew DeWolf: He did. But they brought back Mary Philbin to do her own dubbing and all that. And Mary Philbin's her own can of worms, one of the more interesting human beings to ever live, from what I gather. And then that was what existed as the print of the Phantom of the Opera was a dubbed over version of the Phantom of the Opera that they turned the voices off of.

[12:24] Andrew DeWolf: So the talkie version of it is now the version that's most common, but without the talking.

[12:30] Jesse McAnally: Yes. More or less, yes.

[12:32] Andrew DeWolf: That's why when you turn on the Phantom of the Opera, when you see the free version on YouTube, it's just this weird static shot of a shadow walking around. There was originally narration and nonsense over that.

[12:44] Jesse McAnally: Why is there still title cards?

[12:47] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know. I wish I had an answer.

[12:50] Jesse McAnally: Yeah.

[12:51] Andrew DeWolf: I have no good answer.

[12:53] Jesse McAnally: This one exists in that kind of that same weird area, almost in that same weird area as the Robert Englund movie, where it's like, OK, you can tell this guy.

[13:02] Andrew DeWolf: It started as something that was more or less accurate to the book, but then the movie industry got in the way. We've got the comic character, we've got Arthur Carew, his character was originally identified as the Persian, for some reason became this secret police guy named Ledoux. The woman who originally played Carlotta was now Carlotta's mother. It's very odd, some of the directions they took with this. They gave it their best shot three times, four times, and none of them worked out fully well. So this film is, I can't even say it's really, the only thing that's great about it is anytime our Lon Chaney is on screen, sincerely. I think, you know, he's fantastic. I think some of the production values also hold up very well, apart from Lon Chaney and his makeup.

Back then, they didn't do a whole lot of location shooting because it was too expensive. It was just cheaper to build something in the studio. So they built this entire replica of the Palais Garnier Auditorium on Universal Studio, and it stood for decades after that. I don't know if they finally tore it down or not, but it was around for quite a while. It burned down with the big Universal fire that happened in the mid-2000s. Yeah, so it's no longer there, but it was there for a long time, and they used it, I think they actually used it for the 40, the Claude Rains, which I think was 43. They used it there, and they used it for some other stuff as well. So it was, you know, it was just a magnificent piece of theater, the set piece that they put on all the tours.

It was a great bit of history. So that was pretty cool. There's, you know, some good, I think the Phantom's, you know, the Phantom's house under the opera house is, or under the opera is very reasonably well done, for the most part. And, you know, as dumb as the chase scene is, there's a neat little Easter egg where he runs past the outside of Notre Dame, which, of course, was a set that had been built for when he played Quasimodo in Hunchback of Notre Dame. The rumor was that Lon Chaney was haunting that soundstage for years and years. There was, I think there was also a rumor that he had like a bench, like somewhere in Los Angeles, where he would just show up, like waiting for the bus or whatever. He's the Phantom of the soundstage for the Phantom of the Opera.

[15:42] Christi Esterle: Yes. I think people just like ghost stories, especially like connecting it to a figure like this. Yeah. I'm like, oh, my God, there's a phantom! And he's played the phantom! Yeah. Where did they film all the boat stuff? Because that's what's interesting to me, is they have all these sets with water where they were like, running this little canoe through or whatever it is.

[16:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I don't, you know, I'm not sure. They had probably had like, you know, tanks or whatever that they did stuff like that, like they do now. So, I mean, yes, but also like, I'm trying to imagine like, there's no chlorine in that. That's just random water they have all filled with shit.

[16:19] Christi Esterle: Yeah. Like, and Lon Chaney's going under their full head first and all that. With like 90 buckets of clay on him.

[16:28] Andrew DeWolf: Don't they have that scene where like a whole group of people is like running through that water?

[16:32] Christi Esterle: There is, yes.

[16:35] Andrew DeWolf: Who knows what's in that? There might have been an actual sewer.

[16:39] Christi Esterle: I mean, it wouldn't surprise me. It would not surprise me. It was the 1920s. They didn't have the health regulations.

[16:44] Andrew DeWolf: I'm trying to. They don't have germ theory yet.

[16:48] Christi Esterle: No, no. Everyone just, you know, shat in the streets and then washed their hands on each other. What I do want to say is Mary Philbin often gets overlooked in this film because, you know, like you got Lon Chaney really acting it up. She's probably like the best Christine to ever, like she's never. She's very good. And again, she's doing some over the top stuff. But when she's doing, you know, when she rains it in, there's some really cool stuff. I think the scene she does on the rooftop is fantastic, you know, especially where there's this bit where she and Raul are embracing and he's got his arms around, he's got his arms at her waist and she just kind of pulls him down. It's like, OK, slow down, slow your roll, dude.

And then, of course, you have the incredible unmasking scene where I don't think it would work if she wasn't selling it. Oh, my God. Yes. Yeah. And again, you know, 100 percent classic there. I think, you know, and we do have to talk about the makeup, though, because. Oh, yeah, we can't. The long and the short of it is, is that this couldn't he could not have done this if this had been a sound film. He had stuff pushing his nose in his nose, pushing it up. He had like some stuff in his cheeks that were hollowing it out. It was and he had the false teeth. So he probably couldn't talk about that. There was a lot going on where, you know, you couldn't do that and actually be able to speak or sing effectively.

There's you know, when they were doing the Lloyd Webber musical, they were, you know, testing out some makeup with Michael Crawford. And, you know, they tried some like some of that cheek padding and he said it just made him sound like Marlon Brando in the Godfather. So that didn't work out.

[18:27] Andrew DeWolf: One of the wildest things that I learned in my research that I never noticed and now I can't unnotice he doesn't have dentures in. He has a very specific way that he has the mouthpiece in and it's not in his mouth. It's on his lips. So he's tucking his lips in and it's glued to his lips.

[18:42] Christi Esterle: Yeah. So it always protrudes outward.

[18:48] Andrew DeWolf: Right. OK. Yeah. And that's horrific. He applied it all and he says most of the effect of what people think they see is the coloration that he uses. Yeah. You know, there's all that big stuff. But a lot of what he did was very subtle shading and stuff. I don't know if this is true or not, but apparently, you know, the red death mask that he wears in the masquerade scene, apparently that was also makeup that that tracks to me like.

[19:12] Christi Esterle: Yeah, it's how did this guy how much time do you think he had to spend in that makeup?

[19:18] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, definitely. Like over 14 hours a day. It's not like this.

[19:21] Christi Esterle: Oh, my God. Like just thinking about like his nose being pushed up like that for like a long period of time, that's got to be so uncomfortable. And if it's on his lips, he can't close his mouth, can he? Because it's like really now.

[19:35] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. So but that's what also makes like the horror moments really work. But like that iconic photo of him where he's got his arms crossed and all that. Like I'm I always looked at that and I was like, why is his mouth like that? And now I realize it's just because he can't shut his mouth.

[19:53] Christi Esterle: So he also put like like egg filling like proper to make his eyes look cloudier.

[19:59] Andrew DeWolf: Right. Like he was he he was the real deal. Like Lon Chaney was made for this and he was born to deaf mutes. So he had to learn to express himself nonverbally from a very young age and no one did it better than him.

[20:14] Christi Esterle: The makeup is great, but have you ever done research into Mary Philbin at all? I don't mean to linger on her.

[20:21] Andrew DeWolf: And now I'm dying to hear what you've learned.

[20:23] Christi Esterle: So she was in another film, The Man Who Laughs, which is a Victor Hugo adaptation and a bunch of a bunch of silent films. She was like the face of silent film. Do you know her entire tenure? She was in dozens and dozens of movies. It started in 1921 and she retired in 1929 at the age of 26. And she was never in another movie again. She died at the ripe old age of 90 in 1993. She never married, but tried to marry one of her like closest friends who happened to have been Jewish and her family was very Catholics. So she was not allowed to marry him. When he eventually died, he kept all of her love letters. And when she died, she kept his. The more I read about this woman, the more fascinating I found her.

I did know that her career basically ended with the talkies, which, you know, the Norma Desmond thing was very real. Obviously, there were a lot of people who were not able to make that transition for one reason or another. But I don't think she tried. I think she just actively said, I'm done. I'm 26. I'm out. I am over the hill. It's time to go. Which makes I don't know, like she fascinates me. And the more I think about her, the more I'm like, man, what a what an interesting human being.

[21:43] Andrew DeWolf: That being said, let's talk about how this is one of the most groundbreaking films of all time based on just cinematic advancement. So one of the first technicolor films like it has technicolor scenes in it, including the rooftop scene and especially that red masquerade ball, which is a fantastic sequence. It looks great. And then it also, for its release, had some of the first 24 frames a second footage that had sync sound where for all the opera scenes, which is I know it's ridiculous to say 24 frames a second with sync sound. Oh, my gosh, the technology. But it was.

[22:24] Christi Esterle: Yeah, but that's why you that's why you have that, why you see so many films, silent films, and they haven't compensated for the frame rate, which is why they have that kind of jerky, you know, sped up feel to it.

[22:36] Andrew DeWolf: And this while it does in some points mostly works like my I didn't feel confused by it.

[22:43] Christi Esterle: Right.

[22:43] Andrew DeWolf: And it basically started an entire string of a horror anthology that is still connected to things like Dracula, Frankenstein, The Mummy, The Invisible Man, The Wolfman.

[22:53] Christi Esterle: Yeah, this is this is basically the ground zero of the universal horror. I don't know if you'd even call it a franchise, but that entire umbrella of the classic, you know, Frankenstein, The Wolfman, Dracula, The Invisible Man.

[23:07] Andrew DeWolf: Genre more than anything.

[23:08] Christi Esterle: Yeah, it created the American horror genre. While there was other things like, you know, The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari and other pieces.

[23:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that was like that was that was German expression.

[23:17] Christi Esterle: Yeah, this is just a proper spooky movie. It should have more gags, I think. And also the villain needs comeuppance. Come on.

[23:28] Andrew DeWolf: But they didn't. But the chase scene is not the only ending alternative to this movie. There is also another variation where he lets Christine go and then he leaves a note on her doorstep like, hey, always care for you and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's it, which I think is a good middle ground.

[23:48] Christi Esterle: Yeah, where, you know, he doesn't quite die and get redeemed. But he also isn't quite like, you know, murdered by a mob.

[23:57] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but who cares what we have to think about this movie? Like, it's time to compare our opinions to the real critics over on Letterboxd.com. It's time for reviews.

[24:07] Christi Esterle: It's time for reviews, it's time for reviews.

[24:17] Andrew DeWolf: It's a Letterboxd game. All right. If for those of you who have not been with us very long, this is a game where I'm going to read a real Letterboxd review. None of these are fake to both Andrew and Christy, and they have to tell us based on the review alone whether it was a one star or a five star. All right. Are we ready?

[24:36] Christi Esterle: Let's go for it.

[24:37] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. All right, Christy, you're up first.

[24:39] Christi Esterle: Mm hmm.

[24:40] Andrew DeWolf: Homeboy's mask is a thousand percent scarier than his face.

[24:43] Christi Esterle: I don't know. Five star.

[24:45] Andrew DeWolf: That is correct.

[24:46] Christi Esterle: All right.

[24:47] Andrew DeWolf: Very scared of the mask, but not the, uh.

[24:49] Christi Esterle: The mask is unsettling.

[24:51] Andrew DeWolf: The mask is very unsettling.

[24:53] Christi Esterle: Uncanny Valley. And he's got like the barb, which is like the veil underneath. So you can kind of see his mouth under it and see that it's not quite right.

[25:04] Andrew DeWolf: Okay. Okay. I still don't know if I agree.

[25:06] Christi Esterle: The makeup's pretty, pretty.

[25:09] Andrew DeWolf: I don't exactly agree either, but it's yeah, it it's a very it's a very unsettling appearance.

[25:16] Christi Esterle: I agree. But at least you can see a human behind the makeup.

[25:19] Andrew DeWolf: I know what you're saying, Andrew, but the fact that you can see like the human being underneath it all.

[25:24] Christi Esterle: Okay, if that's what that's what you say that I feel like that makes it worse.

[25:29] Andrew DeWolf: All right, Andrew, you're up next.

[25:31] Christi Esterle: Okay.

[25:32] Andrew DeWolf: Crazy Eric and his snorkel rack. Why does he have two snorkels? I was listening to a historian. It's like one of them is spare or what? But when me and Christine want to go rat diving.

[25:45] Christi Esterle: Well, I mean, yes, one is for Christine, probably. But also maybe it is just a spare. In case I lose one in my snorkel myrtle-ing.

[25:53] Andrew DeWolf: I feel like that's a reasonable thing. Maybe one of them is for the rat catcher.

[25:58] Christi Esterle: Maybe. I feel like he wouldn't give the rat catcher one. He'd say hold his breath.

[26:04] Jesse McAnally: Ours for noticing small details that they liked it. That is a good tactic. And yes,

[26:09] Christi Esterle: That is correct. Christie, next one. The Phantom. Smash or pass?

[26:15] Jesse McAnally: Oh, geez. We already know the answer to that. Smash. Oh, one star. That is a five star.

[26:25] Christi Esterle: I guess. Yeah. If you're talking if you're going to smash or pass them. I mean, it's actually more smash or blow up the opera house.

[26:28] Jesse McAnally: Well, yeah. You will smash or pass with me or you will send him to his grave. All right, Andrew.

[26:36] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Shadows on the wall have always been cool.

[26:47] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but that opening, though, maybe a little too much shadows on the wall.

[26:53] Andrew DeWolf: What is blackness, if not just a big shadow on a wall? We're going to go with one.

[27:02] Christi Esterle: That is correct. I got to say, though, there is some good shadow work in here. I mean, there's a bit in the opening where you have the ballet girls, you know, kind of running around and freaking out. And then, you know, in the early scenes, you know, the Phantom, you know, only just appears in silhouette and shadow. And I think it's, you know, it's used very effectively. I like the shadow of the guy that got hung.

[27:33] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah. That's a good point, too. I mean, you know, the comic relief guy is, you know, just kind of raising a set. And, you know, behind him, you see this and then you see the feet dangling and it's like, oh, yeah, that's a good part. I feel like more filmmakers today need to watch silent films to know how to do storytelling a little easier for themselves.

[27:45] Christi Esterle: Filmmakers today are spoiled by, I mean, you just have everything.

[27:53] Andrew DeWolf: They really do. I think limitations breed creativity.

[27:53] Christi Esterle: Yeah. You should almost put limitations on yourself on purpose when you're trying to make something.

[27:59] Jesse McAnally: You hear that, kid? Shoot ten frames a second.

[28:03] Andrew DeWolf: Ten frames.

[28:03] Jesse McAnally: Oh, I see. You're trying to increase it to 12. No.

[28:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but that's what the Dogma 95 movement was known as. They made a set of rules where like no fake lighting could be used. It had to be on all handheld pursuit or consumer cameras.

[28:23] Christi Esterle: And all those films look like shit, except for maybe Dancer in the Dark, which still looks like shit.

[28:27] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Well, setting limitations and setting strict guidelines of you're not allowed to do anything is two different things, I think.

[28:35] Christi Esterle: Suppose that's true. I forget who's next. Is it you, Christine?

[28:42] Jesse McAnally: I think it's me. Yes. All right. Next one. How did anyone think he had a gigantic nose?

[28:47] Christi Esterle: OK, I know what this is referencing, and I'm thinking probably because they don't get the... I'm guessing one star.

[28:54] Jesse McAnally: That is correct. OK, so this is OK. So what's happening is, again, opening scene with the ballet dancers, you know, they're talking about the Phantom and, oh, my God, you know, it's so scary. And, you know, one of them says he had no nose. And the other one says, oh, my God, yes, he did. It was totally enormous. And they're like, wait, what? And actually, this is something that was happened in the original novel was they were like discussing different ideas of what they thought the Phantom looked like. And the guy with like the really big nose was supposed to be like the rat catcher who, you know, like held his lantern up to his face and it was all spooky and looked like it was floating in the air. So I like that there's like a title card, I think, where one of the people says nose, no nose or something.

[29:35] Christi Esterle: He has no nose.

[29:35] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, but it is also enormous.

[29:35] Christi Esterle: Yeah. But yeah, that's Joseph Bouquet telling them what the Phantom looks like. And he's holding like this creepy prop head and fiddling with the ice the whole time. Another, you know, really neat effect, though.

[29:48] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but it's an anachronistic thing because the opera that that head's from is not from an opera that would have existed in the time of Gaston Leroux. So I'm not sure how you would know that.

[30:02] Christi Esterle: I mean, it's just like a random prop thing.

[30:07] Andrew DeWolf: No, it's specifically from a specific opera. I learned it from a historian commentary, and I'm going to put it into my CinemaSins video.

[30:12] Christi Esterle: I'm going to put it into my CinemaSins video. Ding! Ding! And you know what? Let's call it a tie because let's move on. You both are equally good at knowing the crazy people on Letterboxd.com and for fun facts of Phantom of the Opera. On that note, how about we go into a mid-show and then we can talk about some more songs.

[30:46] Andrew DeWolf: Hey guys, sorry to bother you, but today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. So many things over at Patreon. I promise it'll pick up in June. I've been busy. I've been busy, kids.

[30:58] Christi Esterle: Know the feeling. June is busting out all over.

[31:08] Andrew DeWolf: Making this movie might kill me.

[31:08] Christi Esterle: Yeah. I can't wait to see it.

[31:08] Jesse McAnally: Oh, me too. I'd like to just fast forward to that part. Like the man said, art isn't easy.

[31:15] Christi Esterle: It isn't, but also I've basically lost a pound a day since we started and it is honestly worrying me because now I'm down to like 28 pounds down.

[31:30] Andrew DeWolf: Wow. You have to eat some food.

[31:30] Christi Esterle: Yeah. Yeah, it's not great. Start eating burgers every day or something nasty.

[31:38] Jesse McAnally: I can't. When you're on set, you can't eat anything. If you eat something, then you have to go to the bathroom. Literally, someone says, you have to tell someone if you're going to the bathroom. And I'm like, I'd rather you not know that I did that.

[31:56] Andrew DeWolf: Just announce loudly, I'm going to take a shit.

[32:01] Christi Esterle: You do it on the walkie. Just so you know, I'm going to take a massive dump. Big dookie.

[32:07] Jesse McAnally: It is poopoo time.

[32:11] Andrew DeWolf: It's not as bad as with actors who are 100 percent mic'd during the day. So any conversation, they can't have a secret conversation. They can't do anything.

[32:17] Christi Esterle: I'm going to hear it. They're going to hear it. They can't have a moment alone.

[32:20] Jesse McAnally: Yeah. Either way, if they want you to hear it.

[32:26] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Hear me bitch more about it in our private Discord chat, which is available on our Patreon. Andrew, who's currently supporting us on Patreon?

[32:35] Jesse McAnally: Our current patrons are Melissa Goldman, Danielle Rennicks, Justice Stampede, Ewan Cassidy, Monica Throme, Brent Black, Lysaniel Stacey Coombe, Joseph Evans-Green, Mary Lou Choquette, Jean Vanals, Russ Walker, Musical Hell, Emily Gracie, Kyle Summers, Janae C, Scoot in the Technicolor Dreamcoat, Liz Lim, Nothing is Certain Except Beth in Taxes, Desbian, Rafael Martinez Salas, Jessica T, Mitchell Young, Chai Teacup, Katie McDonough, Chris Marcotte, Kiji Marie Anastasio, Lila, RJ Noriega, Charlie B, Charlie Brown I assume, Bjorn Hermans, Toriana Frazier, Sammy the Most Lopez, Liana Morton, Kaylee Blazier, Cinemageddon Reviews, Villainous Miss, Sophina Ali, TheOmegaGeek, Paige Pearson, Maddie Wargel, Eliza Erdman, Anna Laskatova, Cheska Varey, Sarah Denblaker, Evan Ball, Zachary Torres, Gathering Party Before Venturing Forth, Rora Marasso, Mara Forloin, Captain Rodtastic, Lisa L, Nobody, Renee Thomas, What Did Boris Say, Puffyboy, Summer, and Julia Hardy.

[33:43] Andrew DeWolf: They give us financial support that helps us keep the lights on here at Musicals with Cheese! If you would like to join them in supporting us!

[33:49] Christi Esterle: Oh, yes! I don't know if you heard Musical Hell in there, but they're here!

[33:54] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[33:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yep.

[33:55] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, they're better than you, in fact.

[33:58] Christi Esterle: One of the early patrons.

[33:59] Jesse McAnally: Honestly, like, one of the first, like, I'd say top 10%, like, yeah. Stick around. They've been here since day one. I love them all, they're all good people, and they have fun in our Discord chat, and they have fun in our Patreon meetups, and they have fun.

[34:12] Andrew DeWolf: Let's get back to the show.

[34:18] Christi Esterle: So, when we've been covering other things, like we covered the Phantom of the Mall, we covered the Robert Englund version, and we covered Phantom of the Paradise, we do a ratio of how much LaRue does it take, and this one easily takes the most LaRue.

[34:38] Jesse McAnally: In fact, it would have taken more had they not taken the blades to it.

[34:43] Andrew DeWolf: Right.

[34:43] Christi Esterle: Um, what do you think are the most daunting things that makes a Phantom movie a Phantom movie, Christy? What do you think needs to happen for it to be a proper adaptation?

[34:50] Christi Esterle: For it to be a proper adaptation, I think, you know, basically, I would say you have to have a space which is theoretically haunted that turns out to be somebody who is basically pulling, you know, the old Scooby-Doo trick where it's just like a guy in a costume or whatever. You know, preferably, this person is disfigured in some way, and usually has a, you know, romantic attraction to a character in the film. I think those are the main, I think that's the broad bones of the story.

[35:32] Jesse McAnally: That's if you want to include, like, everything, because I feel like you could cut out some stuff by being like, it has to be a music venue, you know, it has to be somebody who wears, like, a mask and is attracted to a singer in particular, and they write music.

[35:47] Christi Esterle: Yes, but then you lose things like Phantom of the Mall and stuff like those oddball ones.

[35:53] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, which I think that is a true adaptation. That actually has more LaRue elements than most adaptations. Honestly, I think the least LaRue adaptation is probably the Max Schell version, where he's like, I'm just kind of your dad figure, whatever.

[36:04] Christi Esterle: All right, we're gonna do that.

[36:11] Jesse McAnally: I'm your dad.

[36:11] Christi Esterle: There is a lot of ones where it is a lot more fatherly. Honestly, I think that the Phantom of the American Musical one is probably one of the least LaRue accurate ones, too.

[36:21] Jesse McAnally: It is one of the least LaRue accurate, but it's one of those where it's like, I love it, even though it's like completely off of, you know, anything that was actually in the original story. I mean, again, you've got the broad bones of, you know, the characters and the setting and the main plot points, but there's a lot going on there where it's like, okay, well, that's different.

[36:45] Christi Esterle: So, I mean, different isn't bad. Let's just say that.

[36:48] Jesse McAnally: No, it's not. It's kind of like the Wicked the Musical of Phantom adaptations. I mean, it bears no resemblance to what actually happened in the source material, but it's good.

[36:59] Christi Esterle: So the 1925 Phantom.

[37:01] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[37:02] Christi Esterle: This one feels like it actually keeps the mystery element to a point, which is something almost none of them do.

[37:11] Andrew DeWolf: Pretty much every single one beyond this is just like, well, everyone knows it's a guy, so it's a guy.

[37:17] Christi Esterle: And that's kind of part of that is kind of built into the way it's written, because if you read the original LaRue novel, I mean, you know, the reveal of who the Phantom is, doesn't happen until like right around halfway through the book.

[37:31] Jesse McAnally: And up till then, it's like, okay, there's all this weird stuff happening, but we don't know why.

[37:37] Christi Esterle: So it's a little like, you know, both Dracula and Jekyll and Hyde in that respect, where the twist where it's a vampire, or they're both the same guy, or it's just this really ugly guy living in the basement.

[37:50] Jesse McAnally: We get to this point where it's like, oh, yeah, everybody knows that. So we're not even going to pretend it's a twist anymore.

[37:55] Christi Esterle: I mean, I got a weird question for you.

[37:57] Jesse McAnally: And Chrissy, you probably know this better than me.

[37:59] Christi Esterle: Has there ever been an adaptation of the Phantom of the Opera where it's actually a ghost?

[38:04] Jesse McAnally: Like, not a guy, but an actual...

[38:07] Christi Esterle: They reverse the twist.

[38:08] Jesse McAnally: They're like, what if it's a guy?

[38:09] Christi Esterle: You know what, there probably is, but I am not thinking of one right now.

[38:16] Jesse McAnally: Because if I were to make the Phantom of the Opera, if someone was like, here's $2 million, I don't even need like $20 million.

[38:22] Christi Esterle: Wait, Jess, is Phantom of the Auditorium?

[38:26] Jesse McAnally: Yes, that is the Goosebumps one.

[38:28] Christi Esterle: The Goosebumps one.

[38:29] Jesse McAnally: He's a ghost.

[38:30] Christi Esterle: The kid's a ghost at the end.

[38:32] Jesse McAnally: So yeah, there is one.

[38:34] Christi Esterle: That is the only one.

[38:35] Jesse McAnally: That's the only one that turned the twist on its head to actually make it a ghost.

[38:41] Christi Esterle: Okay, and there's actually an episode of The Muppet Show where there was supposedly a phantom in the theater and the guy was, you know, that he was murdered on his opening night by the critics.

[38:51] Jesse McAnally: Kermit, Kermit, what the heck is skull-like head, fiery green eyes, is the fourth case?

[38:58] Andrew DeWolf: I don't know.

[39:00] Christi Esterle: I don't know either, but it's right behind you!

[39:07] Jesse McAnally: Stutler and Waldorf go hard.

[39:12] Andrew DeWolf: The Muppet Phantom of the Opera. Come on.

[39:14] Jesse McAnally: That actually exists. There is like a book adaptation where it's Muppet characters.

[39:20] Andrew DeWolf: That's wonderful.

[39:21] Jesse McAnally: So we don't have to make it up. Who plays who? We can just read the book. It's in there.

[39:26] Andrew DeWolf: Well, the Phantom is Uncle Deadly, which is, you know, who was the original Phantom character in that? He's the one with like the kind of creepy long nose. Yeah, stuff. And then, you know, Piggy and Kermit, obviously, are Christine and Raoul.

[39:40] Jesse McAnally: I don't know who else, where it all goes from there. I feel like Piggy should have been Carlotta.

[39:44] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, she kind of would fit into that role more. But I mean, it's Piggy. She is going to take the lead role every time and she deserves it because she's the queen.

[39:51] Jesse McAnally: But that's what makes her Carlotta.

[39:56] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, it's funnier with her as Christine because then she has more screen time or book time or whatever. I get why they make that call. But also she is Carlotta.

[40:06] Jesse McAnally: Well, yeah, if it were a proper movie, they'd hire pop singer XYZ to play Christine and then she'd be Carlotta. And then, you know, Raoul would be normal guy and then Uncle Deadly or Dead Guy or Uncle or Gonzo probably would be the Phantom. It's always Gonzo.

[40:25] Andrew DeWolf: Gonzo has like a mask that like straightens out his nose or something. I'm sorry, but this is one of my favorite Gonzo gags of all time. And it's the Star Wars thing where he comes in in the Darth Vader costume and Piggy's like, who are you behind that mask? And he turns profile so you can see the nose.

[40:43] Jesse McAnally: And Raoul, you might ask.

[40:49] Andrew DeWolf: He would have to do that in a Phantom parody.

[40:53] Jesse McAnally: So back to LaRue, this has like all the hallmarks and it has more of the hallmarks than a lot of movies and a lot of adaptations do. It has Raoul's older brother. It has it has kind of the Persian character. Yeah. In the original version, I think they did have Mama Valerius, who was, you know, basically the woman who took care of Christine after she died or after and after she died, after her father, after Christine's father died, she took care of Christine. So and in the original version, they had the cemetery sequence with the skull. They did have that. And then there was like, yeah, they have, you know, the masquerade. They have the scorpion and the grasshopper and the threat of blowing up the opera house.

There's a, you know, the plot, the rough arc of the plot is very close to what happens in the original novel. So, yeah, it's even even chopped up. It is pretty darn close. It's the closest we think we've got so far. So, yeah, it needed more count to rub off the Russian that challenges Raoul to a duel. I honestly felt that was needed. One of the OK, I don't know who this historian is, but on YouTube, there's a full commentary on like the Phantom of the Opera, and he would just spit out the wildest facts about just people's lives, like the Persian actor comes on screen. He's like, this actor was this person and he was a giant alcoholic and killed himself four years after this. This is like, move on. Is that even true? Does he just make it possible?

[42:28] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, I don't know anything about Arthur Caruso. I just found like his very like throwing things away. So actually, I did steal the snorkel joke from him. He's like, and if you can see there's two snorkels, I assume it's because he wanted a late night date with Christine to go snorkeling, but I don't know. It's just it was one of the wildest commentaries that I was going to kick myself if I didn't bring up. Like he'd say good facts, like honestly, he'd write down like the actual like things about that. But my gosh, like what is this? What is this YouTuber's name? Not a YouTuber like not a YouTuber. So he's just putting out commentaries. He's an actual historian. Oh, my God. Like it was included with the DVD box set.

It was Scott McQueen. Okay, this is incredible. And he's an interesting fella. He's a film preservationist. What a wild person. What a wild thing. If it is on YouTube, I do recommend it. But strangely, he's doing a commentary on the sound version. Like the more I unpack what this is, it's strange. But it has Madame Jury. It has Meg Jury played by I believe a nepotism hire. The actress who played Meg Jury lived to be 104 years old dying in 2014.

[43:50] Christi Esterle: Wow.

[43:51] Andrew DeWolf: Holy crap.

[43:52] Christi Esterle: Yeah. Carla Lemley, who I believe is the daughter of Universal head Carl Lemley.

[43:59] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, she's she's come up. She she's spoken out a lot about this movie, too. And it actually takes place in France, where a lot of other ones are like, London. So let's talk about how the Universal ended up with the rights and making this film. Carl Lemley went to the opera popular opera Garnier, forgive me. Yeah, the popular is like whatever Andrew Lloyd Webber thought it was called. And he met Gaston Leroux. And he's like, I love this opera house. I love this opera house. He's I wrote a book about this, if you're interested.

[44:36] Jesse McAnally: Well, that's the thing is that this, you know, I think this really is where, you know, Phantom became, you know, kind of integrate fully integrated into, you know, the pop culture lexicon, at least in the United States, because the book was, you know, it did moderate business, but it wasn't like, you know, a best, you know, a huge blockbuster.

[44:55] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it was interesting to see how like this, I feel like this has more of a cultural impact on society's like impression of the family opera than even the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical. I feel like this is going to live longer than the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical.

[45:11] Christi Esterle: Do you think sincerely there will ever be another adaptation as good as this?

[45:16] Andrew DeWolf: You know what, it's really hard to say. It's possible. It's always possible. But I think, you know, it's you have to get that right balance of, you know, the the terror and the romance and the tragedy and, you know, kind of the melodrama of it all. Melodrama is very hard for people to do and understand. And this is a very melodramatic story. So people are, you know, so you kind of have to find that balance and that this movie does. And I think that the best Phantom adaptations do figure out. So it's hard to say, you know, there's there's people who have said that they're there is going to be a modern rework somewhere or the other. And what would that be like? Would they do like in modern day or would they do it like in in the time, like the 18? Yeah, I don't know.

[46:13] Christi Esterle: See, my thing is, if you're going to do a modern adaptation of Phantom of the Opera, I think you have to go back to the original book, which is, you know, not, you know, almost like Dracula in that it's like, here's all these reports and interviews and things about this crazy shit that happened. And you've got to turn it into like this kind of, you know, mockumentary or found footage thing where like people are talking on Zoom or over their phones or recording, you know, clips of stuff and kind of build it up that way.

[46:45] Andrew DeWolf: Do you remember when they were doing the like universal monster dark universe?

[46:51] Jesse McAnally: Oh, my God, the dark universe that never actually happened because the first movie tanked.

[46:56] Andrew DeWolf: But do you remember the Invisible Man movie that came out like after that?

[47:00] Christi Esterle: Yes, that was good.

[47:02] Andrew DeWolf: That was really good. If they did that for Phantom of the Opera, I just think I think there's too much baggage right now, though, because if you make anything Phantom of the Opera immediately, there's the musical that people are going to compare it to.

[47:16] Christi Esterle: How do you get how do you push past that?

[47:17] Jesse McAnally: I just want a good version of the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical on film.

[47:22] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I mean, they could do that first.

[47:24] Christi Esterle: Keep waiting.

[47:25] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, I know. I mean, I'll just I'll just be over here with like the 25th anniversary pro shot. It's not perfect, but it'll do.

[47:32] Christi Esterle: I don't think it'll do. I don't love that pro shot.

[47:35] Andrew DeWolf: I don't understand why they made it the way they did in the 2004 movie.

[47:39] Christi Esterle: Okay, just give me that.

[47:40] Andrew DeWolf: I kind of like the like I'm back and forth on the 2004 movie, depending on the week. I will enjoy it. I will hate watch it.

[47:50] Christi Esterle: I enjoy watching that more than I enjoy watching the 25th anniversary concert, I think is the best way to say that, because there's so many stupid things in that movie that's hard not to have a good time.

[48:02] Andrew DeWolf: Like, I love when I can see the camera on the Phantom and Christine during Music of the Night. I love the weird sex doll close up. I love like the wild masquerade choices.

[48:15] Christi Esterle: Oh, my God, the guy doing like the Frug or the Vogue or whatever.

[48:20] Andrew DeWolf: Jean Cocteau arms, which speaking of Jean Cocteau, Rupert Julian, who directed this film, was accused of being a poor man, Jean Cocteau, stealing all of his tricks with not without understanding why they were used in the first place.

[48:35] Christi Esterle: And I can see that I can. Everyone basically described Rupert Julian as mediocre and impotent. And Ron Chaney despised him from the get go. But his name is forever attached to this.

[48:50] Jesse McAnally: Christie, I am curious what your Phantom ranking would be. I've asked Andrew and he's already ranked this among this. I am curious what yours would be among all the adaptations you've seen.

[49:01] Christi Esterle: Among all adaptations, I would put this, you know, it's certainly the best filmed version. Best overall, I would say has to be like top, you know, top three. I would say top five minimum.

[49:15] Andrew DeWolf: Behind like the Lloyd Webber musical and what else?

[49:18] Christi Esterle: Yeah, Lloyd Webber. It would probably be kind of I'm not sure where it would rank above or below the Lloyd Webber musical, but they would kind of be both be in that top tier along with the original novel. And let's see, those are the main ones. Susan Kaye's Phantom.

[49:35] Jesse McAnally: You want a sexual voice Phantom? What's what's the worst one?

[49:40] Christi Esterle: I the one I, you know, just from reputation, the Dario Argento version.

[49:47] Andrew DeWolf: It's so wild. We're doing that.

[49:48] Christi Esterle: We're doing that soon, aren't we?

[49:50] Andrew DeWolf: Next week, kids.

[49:51] Christi Esterle: Yes, he rat the rats.

[49:54] Andrew DeWolf: I am just going to leave it at that.

[49:56] Christi Esterle: And does he fuck the rats?

[50:00] Andrew DeWolf: He doesn't. There is intimacy with rats involved. It is. And yeah, and the guy's not even disfigured. I mean, he's just just like this blonde, you know, it's at least they tried in the Schumacher film. I mean, it was bad, but they tried to make, you know, look, he's hideous. He's got a sunburn, but they didn't even try on this one.

[50:23] Christi Esterle: Yeah, because Julian Sands didn't want to, like, wear a mask on the poster is the weird it's and his daughter is playing Christine, which is, you know, there's all levels that level of weird.

[50:34] Andrew DeWolf: So there's a lot there's a lot going on.

[50:38] Christi Esterle: There is a lot going on there.

[50:40] Andrew DeWolf: So that's worse than Phantom of the Mall.

[50:42] Christi Esterle: I think so.

[50:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yes.

[50:44] Christi Esterle: I mean, when you're, you know, goofy 80 slasher films are their own thing.

[50:48] Andrew DeWolf: So it's true.

[50:50] Christi Esterle: The thing is, I've watched the Dario Argento film like over a decade ago. I've since looked at his other work and really enjoyed it. Like, I've watched the Spiria. I've watched Opera, which is a much better Phantom of the Opera movie than the Phantom of the Opera movie. Like, it's like everything you'd want from a Phantom of the Opera thing. It's modern, but whatever.

[51:09] Andrew DeWolf: But, Andrew, it it's everything you love about the Robert Englund movie cranked up to 10 million to be a horrendous, horrendous thing.

[51:09] Christi Esterle: The Robert Englund movie is honestly, you know, a lot higher on my rankings than I would have thought.

[51:23] Andrew DeWolf: And then you would think just hearing about it again, that's another one where it's like, OK, I'm pretty sure this started as, you know, something more or less book accurate. And then they went, OK, why don't we turn it into a slasher movie with the Freddy Krueger guy?

[51:36] Christi Esterle: Yeah, but the time travel, time travel, time travel. I mean, you know, it's got some it's got some fantastic, fantastic sequences. Robert Englund is really good in it. And his makeup, again, pretty good.

[51:50] Andrew DeWolf: So I think the only thing that holds the makeup back is that every time you see it, you're like, well, they're just trying to do Freddy.

[51:57] Christi Esterle: Yeah, but it's so grisly. Like he's partial. He doesn't wear a mask. He like puts people's stitches, skin onto his face. That is like it's creative.

[52:09] Andrew DeWolf: Extra character in general, it's Andrew. Why don't you remind us of your rankings?

[52:15] Jesse McAnally: Really quick, before we move on to our cheese ratings, should I just see, do we want to move this one? Yeah, probably. I'm gonna move this guy, meaning the Lon Chaney film. Yeah, the Lon Chaney one. We're moving it above Phantom of the Auditorium for sure, right below Robert Englund. Yeah, I can't say this one I enjoyed more. It's just a silent movie; it's hard to get into.

[52:40] Christi Esterle: Fair enough. I think it's probably really good for its time and revolutionary and all that, but like you don't think of that stuff when you're just trying to watch a movie. I remember when people talked about Rent and us, and they're like, "You just had to be there; it was important for the moment." You're like, "I can't use that same excuse that people use for Pokémon: The First Movie on other media." In a tier, I put Phantom and Phantom of the Paradise, and the first Phantom is the American musical. I just really like that one. In the tier below that, we have Phantom of the Opera, the Weber version, which I think is pretty good, and then the Robert Englund one after that because I just really enjoy that one, then Lon Chaney, and then Phantom of the Auditorium, which I think is underrated. That's a fun little thing to listen to.

[53:28] Andrew DeWolf: Oh yeah, buy their merch! Yeah, we have their merch. Honestly, below that, I put the Weber movie, but I haven't watched it in a long time, and even when I was ranking it, I was like, "I'm not sure where to put this." So maybe it could go up; maybe it would go down. I'd have to watch it; it's been a long time. And then Phantom of the Ball, which just wasn't great, but you know, it had some fun. And then at the very bottom, I put Love Never Dies because I just fucking hate that. I just think that doesn't even count. I am sorry, Love Never Dies.

[54:00] Christi Esterle: I kind of love that the same way I love the Phantom movie, where it's just like I will enjoy watching every second of that for pure hate-watching. I just really think it sucks. I really fucking hate it. I saw that creative process happening in real time, where it started with the London version, which is just them trying to do Phantom again, building up to what it would become and somehow both getting better and worse. It was fascinating, you know? It's based on like a book that Weber commissioned in the '90s, which is, you know, just as terrible, if not more so.

[54:49] Andrew DeWolf: It was shot off, and that's why he can't have kids by Count... what's his butt? Yeah, me and Jess had a much better theory about CBT and him going a little too far.

[55:02] Jesse McAnally: No, Andrew, BPN is gonna kick us off. No CBT!

[55:02] Christi Esterle: I love Love Never Dies. I don't understand why it exists other than money, just because Andrew Lloyd Webber has not had a really good hit since Phantom, and he's trying to go back to the well by writing the worst fan fiction ever.

[55:20] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, just fucking... I think I hate that one especially because I've talked to apologists like this guy over here.

[55:28] Christi Esterle: I just kind of think it's funny.

[55:28] Jesse McAnally: Okay, that's fair. It's objectively a funny thing that exists. It's funny that it exists, and it's one of those things where it's this... I mean, you know, it's got like the stupid "Hey, remember we had sex one time" song that goes on forever. It's beautiful, come on!

[55:48] Christi Esterle: I just can't believe that she got the Phantom pregnant. She's so ridiculous!

[55:54] Jesse McAnally: It made sense dramaturgically, you know, for that to happen. The great song about the kid and his beauty underneath, and oh my god, yeah, the song that you feel like you should have... like the, what's his gut, what the guy who always jumps out at the sex predators coming on? It's a handsome... yeah, why don't you have a seat right there? What were you doing? Yes, what did you take all that made him run away screaming? No, and then poor Christine gets fridged at the end, and it's stupid, and she doesn't deserve it.

[56:39] Christi Esterle: I have a pitch to how to fix Love Never Dies. Write me, Andrew Lloyd Webber. Get Jerry Butler and every... no, no, here, your business. This is to Andrew Lloyd Webber alone. Make me a call; I will... I have the pitch!

[56:56] Jesse McAnally: He has the pitch!

[56:56] Christi Esterle: I actually came up with it while I was sick with COVID, and I've got it in my brain. I'm not just gonna... actually, Andrew Lloyd Webber's gonna actually call you. He's like desperate.

[57:05] Jesse McAnally: I want him to! You have something you've worked too hard on this, and I can see what you're going for, but no, you don't. I'm the only one that knows how to fix this.

[57:19] Christi Esterle: You don't even need to change any of the songs; you don't need to... I know I have my structure away from this. Everyone hypothesizes on Twitter what... which is fucking talking about.

[57:27] Jesse McAnally: You know what? I will make a full video in the style of fixing Harry Potter: The Cursed Child if we make it to a thousand dollars on our Patreon.

[57:37] Christi Esterle: Yeah, so write me, Andrew Lloyd Webber. I got it; I got it.

[57:46] Jesse McAnally: Christi, this was absolutely lovely, but what are your overall thoughts on The Phantom of the Opera (1925) and your cheese rating?

[57:50] Christi Esterle: It is... I, you know, I think it's a silent film classic. I think, you know, if you're a horror fan, film fan in general, certainly if you are any kind of Phantom fan, you need to see this. Be particular about which soundtrack though, because I gotta give... I gotta tell this story before we wrap up. First time I saw this, I picked it... I got a VHS with the soundtrack done by Rick Wakeman of Yes, and it is, you know, and I'm like watching the movie, I'm like, "Okay, this movie is really cool, but what the hell is up with this music?" It is just like really weird stuff, overly synthesized with songs that have like really bizarre lyrics. If you ever find it, it's good for a laugh, but yeah, get a good quality silent film soundtrack to go with, and it's good. I would give it... I would call it cheddar cheese. It's a good solid bait, you know, foundational form of the genre, so that's a good one.

[58:55] Jesse McAnally: And I also agree with that. I once saw this in a movie theater with a three-piece electric bass, like three different people playing electric bass, okay, to the film, and it did not work even a little. It's a beautiful film and like all that kind of stuff, but you know, it was a bit of a mess. But Andrew, what about you?

[59:18] Andrew DeWolf: I'm watching this again. It's... I mean, I watched this a long time ago with Jess, and this is the... certainly that was our friendship starting, our blossoming.

[59:29] Jesse McAnally: Oh yes, it's got a lot of good stuff going on, but there are some dry spells where it's just kind of like, "What am I looking at here? Like, what the fuck is happening?" But when it gets going, it does get pretty good, and the makeup that Lon Chaney has on is impressive.

[59:49] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, honestly, like even like worth the price of admission. Yeah, like really. So as far as like a historical artifact and like just if you're a fan of how movies evolved and developed in the Phantom story in general, I think you have to check this version out. Yeah, it's pretty solid. Not much more to say; I think we've talked it to death. And so my cheese rating is... I don't know, we're gonna give it a pimento. I feel like that's a fun cheese just fun to say.

[1:00:24] Christi Esterle: I agree. I love this movie sincerely. I love the imagery from it more than watching it. Like, I love the ideas that it like, but it's not an easy watch. Like it's not like you just turn on and lazily watch; you kind of have to actively engage with it, which is not everyone's favorite thing in the world. But what really works, like I will revisit that unmasking scene very often. I will revisit that Red Death scene very often, but when it's just, you know, the managers, like the managers usually are, so yeah, that part's like, "All right, I'm not loving this." It just keeps going. And then, of course, it is lopsided. The historian points out that like seven editors went into this over the course of making it, and none of it is coherent.

And even at the time, people thought it was an incoherent mess because of it. Like when Raoul hears the Phantom and Christine talking in the dressing room, and suddenly he gives this like mischievous smile like, "Isn't that sweet? She's seeing somebody behind my back." Apparently, like he was reacting to something else, like to a crew member, and they're like, "Whatever, just like whatever, fuck it." That just goes to show like where the medium was at the time, and the historians like, "Please don't blame this actor for having that response; he was responding to something else," and they just left it in. That is not his choice for that moment.

[1:02:07] Christi Esterle: That being said, because of how lopsided this is, I'm giving a very specific cheese rating, which is shredded cheese, but you accidentally mixed in Mexican cheese and fiesta blend and a bunch of other things together where, you know, it's still cheese. Like you got some, you know, just basic cheeses from different brands and all that, and it's still gonna work if you spread it around on your taco, and you're still gonna enjoy it, but it's kind of a mess, and it's a little dated, you know? It's been a minute, but you know what? Once it's melted, you can't really tell how bad of cheese that is.

[1:02:44] Jesse McAnally: That being said, Christi, this was lovely. I've missed hearing your voice again. We have to do it more often.

[1:02:53] Christi Esterle: Of course, of course! I wouldn't wake... it's coming out; we're gonna have a lot more updates there, and we'll bring you on for those. That being said, you have wonderful content.

[1:03:00] Christi Esterle: Yes, I am on YouTube. I am on, you know, I'm on Twitter and stuff. I'm kind of on Spoutable. I'm still on Twitter, you know, as it crashes and burns. I'm on Tumblr, so yeah, look me up on Musical Hell. I'm on Patreon, obviously, so yeah.

[1:03:16] Andrew DeWolf: Thank you, Christi, and we're... as someone on your Patreon, it is worth being on there.

[1:03:22] Christi Esterle: Yes, I love you very much as a human being and as just a genuine person. I am so grateful for your friendship and for you coming on.

[1:03:32] Jesse McAnally: You know what I'm grateful for, Andrew? If I were to guess, you're probably gonna want me to say pay our patrons.

[1:03:36] Andrew DeWolf: No, it was gonna be you, but then you had to be a little dick about it, and now it's gonna be our patrons. Thank you guys for listening! Please follow us, and I just got my Musicals with Cheese. We're on Patreon, Musicals with Cheese, and Scrim, Musicals with Cheese YouTube pages, Musicals with Cheese patron-only podcast is Patreon with Cheese. Come check that out. Email us at musicaltheatrelives@gmail.com. Our Keeper of the Cheese is Juliet Antonio. Christi, why don't you give us some ASMR as a little treat for Juliet Antonio?

[1:04:02] Christi Esterle: I don't... I got nothing.

[1:04:09] Jesse McAnally: I'm gonna do it! I'm gonna try it then. Enjoy that! Our theme songs are created by Robyn Nash of IOU Music UK. Thank you to the Broadway Podcast Network for having us on the platform and for not kicking us off because they have no nose.

[1:04:28] Andrew DeWolf: BPN does not have a nose! I know this movie's pretty easy to find. Go on YouTube; like it's on YouTube. It's literally on YouTube. It is the most accessible thing we've covered on here, aside from many slime tutorials.

[1:04:46] Jesse McAnally: All right, we'll see you next time on Musicals with Cheese!