This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jesse McAnally: Fuck, you are a god. I did it wrong. I fucked it up. I fucked it up. Let me do it again.

[0:05] Andrew DeWolf: He just said it. He just said it.

[0:06] Liz Esten: Yeah, you didn't even change it.

[0:08] Jesse McAnally: I did. I did it from memory. Fuck, you are a cheese.

[0:23] Jesse McAnally: Hello, I'm Jesse McAnally.

[0:25] Andrew DeWolf: And I'm Andrew DeWolf.

[0:26] Liz Esten: And I'm Liz Esten.

[0:27] Jesse McAnally: And welcome to The Cheese Wheel, a hyper-fixation podcast where our topics are gambled on a wheel.

[0:31] Jesse McAnally: And this week, we have an extra super special guest.

[0:34] Liz Esten: Ooh, extra super special.

[0:37] Christi Esterle: I get more and more special every week.

[0:39] Jesse McAnally: Every guest gets more special.

[0:40] Jesse McAnally: I will say, Christi is literally the reason why this show exists. I gotta say, if we have had any success doing this show in the nearly seven, eight years we've done this, it is because of Christi's support. She is one of our first patrons, one of the first people to share us. She has been my biggest cheerleader for over a decade, and I am so grateful. It is Christi from Musical Hell.

[1:03] Christi Esterle: Thank you.

[1:05] Jesse McAnally: Making me blush.

[1:07] Christi Esterle: There's no blushing.

[1:08] Jesse McAnally: It's just my true, honest love for you, Christi. You have always been there. Back from when I was a wee little Bobby. And you're like, you know what? That kid's annoying, but he's got potential.

[1:20] Jesse McAnally: But no, I am always so grateful to see you. And I'm so excited to talk about this. This was your choice. We kind of forbade the wheel, but I love this film. So Christi, what are we talking about this week?

[1:31] Christi Esterle: We are talking about one of my favorite films in the past 10 years, Guillermo del Toro's The Shape of Water.

[1:40] Jesse McAnally: Beautiful. Cue the trailer.

[4:11] Christi Esterle: The Shape of Water is a film written by Guillermo del Toro and Vanessa Taylor, and directed by Guillermo del Toro, based loosely on The Creature of the Black Lagoon. It was screened as part of the main competition of the 74th Venice International Film Festival, where it premiered on August 31st, 2017, and awarded the Golden Lion. It was also screened at the 2017 Toronto International Film Festival, and it began a limited run in a couple theaters in New York City on December 1st, 2017, before expanding wide on December 22nd. On the review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes, the film has an approval rating of 92%, and its critical consensus reads, "The Shape of Water finds Guillermo del Toro at his visually distinctive best, and matched by an emotionally absorbing story brought to life by a stellar Sally Hawkins performance."

The film would get probably the highest accolades of Guillermo del Toro's career, strangely, considering I love this film, but it is not what I call Peak del Toro. It won Best Director and Best Picture at the Academy Awards.

[5:13] Jesse McAnally: The plot of The Shape of Water is, at a top-secret research facility in the 1960s, a lonely janitor forms a unique relationship with an amphibious creature that is being held in captivity. I also do want to add it won Best Musical Score as well.

[5:27] Andrew DeWolf: It did.

[5:28] Christi Esterle: Three Oscars.

[5:29] Jesse McAnally: Three Oscars, but you know, the two big ones are for Delta.

[5:32] Christi Esterle: I know, I just want to point out the third one because the music of this movie is so good, so.

[5:35] Jesse McAnally: It did not get nominated for Best Makeup, which I think is like, you know, what the frick?

[5:40] Andrew DeWolf: Is it an abomination?

[5:42] Christi Esterle: Do you remember what won Best Makeup that year?

[5:45] Andrew DeWolf: What did win Best Makeup that year?

[5:46] Jesse McAnally: I know this.

[5:47] Andrew DeWolf: Just look this up, and I don't, okay, what did?

[5:49] Christi Esterle: Is this the best grandpa year?

[5:51] Andrew DeWolf: Andrew got it!

[5:52] Jesse McAnally: Andrew got it!

[5:53] Andrew DeWolf: With Suicide Squad?

[5:54] Christi Esterle: I knew, I knew.

[5:57] Jesse McAnally: What was it?

[5:58] Andrew DeWolf: Suicide Squad.

[5:59] Christi Esterle: Suicide Squad.

[5:59] Jesse McAnally: Oh God, not the.

[6:01] Christi Esterle: And not the Suicide Squad, Suicide Squad.

[6:04] Christi Esterle: Doug Jones, Doug Jones like walks around like in like the best, you know, latex, you know, suit ever made, and you're not even going to nominate it. Like what the, what the hell is that all about?

[6:15] Andrew DeWolf: It's unreal. I'm not going to be the guy to say The Shape of Water didn't get enough accolades.

[6:20] Christi Esterle: He did it in the Hellboy movies. They were like, ah, we've seen that. Did it in Pan's Labyrinth. It is his thing. I'm grateful that he's kind of getting a chance to be more. He's basically for like the rubber suit character, what Andy Serkis is for the mocap character.

[6:37] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but Andy Serkis is becoming a much more present person in front of the cameras and behind the cameras a lot more. I'm excited for Doug Jones to get like proper roles outside of, you know, makeup effects creatures.

[6:50] Christi Esterle: Okay, Chrissy, this is nearly 10 years old. Um, we're kind of, when you think about it, we're kind of at the same point now is when this film came up in the first year of a Trump administration.

[7:04] Christi Esterle: Yeah.

[7:07] Jesse McAnally: Don't remind me.

[7:09] Christi Esterle: Well, obviously there's two reasons why I really love this movie. The first is, you know, I'm a huge sucker for a Beauty and the Beast trope. So, you know, it's got that going for it. But also, you know, I'm a huge fan of, you know, Mystery Science Theater 3000 and, you know, like the riff tracks and the mads and all the people who have kind of spun off of that, which means that I've seen like a lot of those old, you know, 1950s B movies, which obviously, you know, the shape of this was, as you said, inspired partially by Creature from the Black Lagoon. But there's also a lot of that, you know, same vibe that it takes and, you know, deconstructs because, you know, in the traditional, you know, 50s, you know, B movie, you have the creature or the alien or, you know, the monster that is somehow this threat of space or radiation or the unknown or whatever, you know, it's the things that's unnatural or untamed or unknown.

And then you have like, you know, the good scientists and the good military guys who are going out and, you know, saving the country from it. And, you know, probably also saving the country from, you know, the Russians as well, either explicitly or implicitly, because it was Cold War. And you have the beautiful girl who, you know, just kind of hangs along and sometimes the monster, you know, kind of gets, you know, a little attracted to her and she like freaks out and screams and everything, but otherwise doesn't do a whole lot. And yeah, that's it. In the end, the creature dies and everybody's happy. But this is kind of like, you know, kind of takes that and turns it all on its head, where you have these people who, you know, the main characters are a mute Hispanic woman, a black woman, a gay man and a communist spy.

And, you know, if they were, if they even existed in a movie of that era, they would either be, you know, sidekicks, comic relief or villains, but they're the heroes. And then the villain is like the, you know, the emblem of like the white male establishment who wants to, you know, torture and kill and can, you know, control the creature because it's outside of, you know, what he thinks is the order and what things should be. And it's done without a hint of cynicism or irony. It is done completely sincerely. It's very beautifully done. It's very positive and, you know, very warm about all these characters and, you know, very sympathetic, I think, you know, even in a certain extent to the villain, because, you know, he's, you know, he's a complete, he's basically toxic masculinity incarnate.

He's a monster. You know, they basically, they say it, Richard Jenkins' first narrations, like at the beginning, he calls him a monster. But there's, you get this impression that he is a product of this militaristic society that created him and, you know, how he's kind of, you know, got the general, you know, kind of breathing down his neck and kind of squeezing him and making him feel that he has to, you know, be this person that he has become. So yeah, he's, you know, obviously he's awful and that doesn't justify anything that he does, but you do kind of see how he wound up to be the way he is.

[10:36] Jesse McAnally: I agree and I like that it's, while he is awful and a monster, he is compelling in a way, but he is still very much like probably the most black and white villain we've seen in a movie in a very long time. Like compared to like what Disney is doing, he is like such a compelling, fun to watch evil person.

[10:56] Christi Esterle: He is, I mean, Michael Shannon's performance is absolutely, you know, it's mesmerizing. Like I say, you know, he's horrible. He's creepy. I mean, there's, you know, probably, you know, the scene that always sticks in my mind is where he's having sex with his wife and, you know, he's on top of her and he, you know, he covers her mouth, which is, A, is gross because this is after his fingers have been chewed off and, you know, he's got this bloody bandage that's dripping, you know, blood and God knows what else into her mouth. But also, you know, it's because this is after he's met Eliza, the mute character. And, you know, it's got this idea that he's, you know, fantasizing about this woman who he sees as, you know, just being, not being able to speak, just being something for him to look at and use and just, you know, be a useful object for him basically. And it's, you know, it's absolutely disgusting on so many levels. But it's so compelling to watch.

[12:02] Jesse McAnally: It is.

[12:03] Christi Esterle: But it's the same way he sees the monster too.

[12:06] Jesse McAnally: Yes.

[12:07] Christi Esterle: But how many villains do we get to see the whole life of? Like, it's basic suburban boring life.

[12:14] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah.

[12:14] Christi Esterle: I just wanted to open it up because I'm pretty sure, Andrew, Liz, this is your first time watching this?

[12:20] Liz Esten: No.

[12:20] Andrew DeWolf: It is my first time.

[12:22] Liz Esten: No, I watched this either in theaters or I rented it at home. I do not remember. My main memory of this movie, honestly, is I was the president of a film magazine in college when this movie came out. And I'm putting it in the top 10 of the year and Chipwater is number one. And I'm trying to link the review that someone wrote of it. No one ever wrote a review of it while the movie was out, while I was the president of this film magazine.

[12:45] Andrew DeWolf: Okay.

[12:47] Liz Esten: I would have, but I didn't- I was like, I liked it, but I'm too busy with everything else to write.

[12:51] Andrew DeWolf: You're running a film magazine.

[12:53] Liz Esten: You can't be writing things.

[12:54] Andrew DeWolf: I'm in charge. I can't write shit.

[12:54] Liz Esten: You can't have an opinion today.

[12:56] Andrew DeWolf: I'm too busy running other people's opinions.

[13:00] Liz Esten: No, I saw this back in 2018. I loved it. I love it now. I loved it then. I love it more now.

[13:06] Jesse McAnally: Okay. Andrew, what was your first watch through? What was your feeling?

[13:10] Andrew DeWolf: I really enjoyed it. I didn't expect it to be as intense as it was because I remember when this came out, all the talk about it was that it was like a horny romance movie. And while it is that, it definitely is that in some aspects. It's also like a pretty like intense action kind of movie in some other places. And there's like a heist element of it. It's definitely a lot more intense than I was expecting, which I liked. I did. I also liked the romance stuff too.

[13:43] Liz Esten: Yeah.

[13:44] Andrew DeWolf: That's the thing everybody remembers about it is this is the one where the movie, the movie where the woman boinks the fish man. And yes, that does happen. But as you said, there's a lot more that's going on about it. And I think that's another way that this subverts the old 1950s and 60s sci-fi films. I mean, that was made during the height of the Hays office. Sex was not something that happened in those movies. But like literally one of the first things we see Eliza doing is she's going through her daily routine. She boils her eggs for her lunch. She gets her bath and she goes into her bath and she, you know, starts taking care of herself.

[14:28] Christi Esterle: So yeah, it's very open about, you know, these people, you know, these are humans who have sexuality and lives.

[14:36] Andrew DeWolf: Very rare in movies.

[14:38] Christi Esterle: And everything you described was also like in water. Every part of that boiling, the way she makes her food, the way she pleasures herself.

[14:46] Christi Esterle: The way she shines her shoes is everything is done through water, which connects her to water. Even when they say like she was found by the river.

[14:56] Jesse McAnally: Right.

[14:57] Christi Esterle: Which I was going to save this for later, but I am curious, do you think she is also a fish person in her own way from birth that just had to adapt to land?

[15:05] Andrew DeWolf: I believe so. I believe that was Guillermo del Toro's intention, um, with the story, but it's obviously left very ambiguous. Um, you know, as to, um, you know, where Elisa came from, you know, why she had, um, the scars on her neck, which rendered her unable to speak. And, you know, whether or not, um, the final scene kind of jumping ahead to spoilers where they're together underwater, is that, you know, is that really what happened? Is this, you know, her friend Giles just trying to make up a story that enables him to come to peace with the fact that, you know, this woman that he really cared for got shot, um, by, you know, uh, uh, just like right in front of him. So, you know, I, I think that this is that, um, what we do see is actually what's happening because again, because it's Guillermo del Toro, um, and he likes that sort of, you know, romance and that sort of more uplifting ending. But I think if you want to read it in a different way, you absolutely can.

[16:04] Christi Esterle: Yeah. Also, he apparently did said he, his intention was for it to be ambiguous if she's a fish person or not.

[16:11] Andrew DeWolf: So he doesn't know is the answer, right?

[16:11] Christi Esterle: I think he knows.

[16:16] Andrew DeWolf: I think he has a pill. I think he knows. Yeah.

[16:21] Christi Esterle: I guess I'd ever thought she was a fish person. I don't know. I never thought of it until the second watch through and then I was like, Oh, wait, my thought of the ending was dang. She's going to have a lot of trouble getting out of that water.

[16:31] Andrew DeWolf: Um, I, I, I want, I'm sure that Liz already knows this, but I'm curious to the rest of you. What, what do you think the budget of this film is?

[16:40] Christi Esterle: Oh, that's a very good question. I would have to look it up.

[16:43] Andrew DeWolf: I'm not good with throw me a, a, a ballpark.

[16:47] Christi Esterle: I would say between a hundred and 150 million. Okay.

[16:52] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, just because, um, it's obviously not a terribly, um, special effects heavy film at the same time. There is a lot going on with, um, you know, obviously the fish man costume. Um, there's a lot going on there. There's a lot of makeup and, uh, other little effects going on. So, and you've got some, um, you've got like, not like a list talent, but like some people who I think can command some pretty decent prices in film. So Andrew, do you have a guess? Let's, let's play prices, right?

[17:24] Andrew DeWolf: I think I'd probably just put it in the same spot. Honestly, the budget he was given was $19.5 million and he did it at 19.3. He gave back change. Um, he did that so he would have complete control top to bottom of this film, which in his own words was like having a box of cereal filled with shit. He hated every second of it. He did not get paid for either being a director or producer of this film. And he described it as that box of cereal, because at the bottom, eventually there was a prize. And that prize is the creative freedom to do what you want without people getting involved. And with that, I think he has built enough with his bigger films, his hell boys, the whatever the robot ones that I've never seen are.

[18:12] Christi Esterle: Pacific Rim. Yeah. Yeah. Those ones. Um, he was able to do all, get all the people from there to work at the lowest of low budgets to make a fish fucking movie that looks better than most films. And for comparison, Todd Phillips, Joker cost $40 million.

[18:33] Andrew DeWolf: It looks like it costs $5.

[18:43] Christi Esterle: It goes to show that budgets are, you make with your budget, what you want. And if you are a great enough talent, you can make something that is truly high art like this, that looks better than 90% of films today.

[18:57] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. It's obviously a great labor of love. Um, just all the care that is taken into like the art direction and the mood and everything about it. It's a very beautiful movie, I think like in the sense of just like being so, so wonderful to look at and watch.

[19:17] Christi Esterle: And intentional. He color coded every character and you can feel it.

[19:22] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I mean, um, you know, greens and green is a very, obviously a very heavy, um, heavily used throughout the film being, you know, kind of the watercolors. So, you know, they have the pies, the pies are green, you know, like Strickland's candy's green and the whole nine yards. So, and then at the very end, in the last scenes, Elisa's wearing like this beautiful bright red outfit, which is fantastic.

[19:46] Christi Esterle: So.

[19:47] Andrew DeWolf: And it just goes to show how rarely red was used throughout the movie.

[19:51] Christi Esterle: Right. Cause it really makes it, you know, red pops naturally, but when you don't see it after a while, it just comes out even more.

[19:59] Christi Esterle: The wildest set design choices is just how you feel other people's worlds are like, you know, we have Elisa's world, which is very blue. Then we go to work and it's very green. Then we go to Strickland's house and it's very yellow and like nauseating looking. And then we go to a lot of other places and it's just like greens. And I don't know, he's a very intentional director. And when you have a low budget, you can affect those things greatly.

[20:26] Christi Esterle: I do want to talk a little bit about sexuality with this film. Shocking. I know.

[20:31] Jesse McAnally: Jess is horny on Maine, y'all.

[20:35] Christi Esterle: Well, this isn't going to be.

[20:37] Andrew DeWolf: Well, you can't really talk about this movie without talking about sexuality.

[20:41] Christi Esterle: So.

[20:41] Jesse McAnally: No, I just make, we're just making fun of Jess for being horny, which he is in like every other episode.

[20:45] Andrew DeWolf: It's OK. Like the Santa Claus 2 episode is coming.

[20:47] Jesse McAnally: I'll be very horny there.

[20:48] Andrew DeWolf: Oh yeah, very.

[20:49] Christi Esterle: This is the episode where you're allowed to be horny, OK? If you're not horny in this episode, you're doing it.

[20:53] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, truly.

[20:55] Christi Esterle: Well, it doesn't feel objectifying in the way like we do see Sally Hawkins body nude again. Yeah, she's like nude in the first five minutes of the movie. She's she is nude with the fish guy. But no, it doesn't feel like it's, you know, sensationalist or objectifying. Like you say, there's like a like female nudity on screen. There's a way to shoot it where it feels gross. And like this is to like titillate the audience. And then there's ways to shoot it where it's like this is just a woman's body on a camera. And that's what it feels like.

[21:28] Andrew DeWolf: A lot of that has to do with focus, because, you know, when you're objectifying, I mean, you know, you're focusing more on, you know, obviously, you know, the parts that people like to think about when they think about sex. But also when you see the face, you know, it's more like, you know, they're kind of do that. They're, you know, screaming or doing the Hago thing or whatever.

[21:52] Christi Esterle: I'm sorry. I just did not expect that word to come out next.

[21:56] Andrew DeWolf: But you're right. You're you're using a technical term there. You know, it's again, it's like you're seeing this person, you know, as an as a object, not as a human who is experiencing sexual desire. Someone who could make noises. She exists to, you know, make you feel horny. But in this movie, you know, it's a lot more focus on this is a person, you know, she is attracted to this, you know, fish guy. And, you know, she is doing what comes naturally when you are attracted to someone. So a lot of this film is about communication and all that. And Guillermo del Toro has this wonderful quote that I want to manage to squeeze into our discussion here, where he says, anyone that can communicate vocally struggles with communication and getting their points across.

And the only people that know how to have a conversation and communicate without any issues are the two people that cannot speak. And I just think about how that on the page could sound anti cinematic and then in action, it is so wonderfully executed.

[23:00] Christi Esterle: Right. I do struggle a bit, though, with the way Doug Jones plays the creature and its awareness of the world around it.

[23:10] Andrew DeWolf: Mm hmm. It kind of looks like the way a dog looks when you put it in a movie where it's not really aware that it's in a movie. Yeah.

[23:18] Christi Esterle: So it makes it I hate to add real world concerns to what it is. Obviously, a fairy tale, but the level of consent that creature is able to put into the things around it.

[23:30] Jesse McAnally: It's not real, Jess.

[23:31] Christi Esterle: It's not real. It just wants to eat cat.

[23:35] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. Yeah, man, you're right.

[23:39] Jesse McAnally: I was a pussy eater. Yeah, I mean, probably.

[23:45] Christi Esterle: We didn't see anything, but I assume it's fine.

[23:47] Andrew DeWolf: We definitely saw it eat a cat. Yeah.

[23:51] Christi Esterle: Well, yeah. No, I've got to bring this up. There is a you know, if you love this movie, there is actually a very good novelization by Guillermo del Toro and somebody else who is tame. I am spacing on right now.

[24:04] Andrew DeWolf: I actually I actually opened it. I opened it earlier.

[24:07] Christi Esterle: Del Toro and Daniel Krauss, which was published.

[24:10] Andrew DeWolf: Yes, that's it.

[24:12] Christi Esterle: Which I highly recommend because not only because it's greatly written, but because it does kind of give you a lot more context and a lot more backstory. It actually does go into the creature's mind a couple of times where and it's written very differently. Like it's all like lower cap stream of consciousness stuff. But you do get a sense of, you know, that there's a thought process going on there and what it's feeling. And yes, it does, you know, kind of, you know, express, you know, feelings for Elisa and understand of what it's doing. But also there's a lot of backstory for the other characters. For example, you know, it mentions that Giles, who's the gay man, he was he's an advertiser. He's like in advertising.

He paints pictures for advertising. But what happened was he got caught and raided a gay club and then his bosses just kind of quietly, you know, told him not to come back, basically. So there's that. And it's it's not shoved in. It's like one of those wonderful things where it's just that is a thing happening to the character.

[25:18] Andrew DeWolf: Right. Yeah.

[25:20] Christi Esterle: Similar things are done with Octavia Spencer's character, which lesser writers would make the cipher to talk about, like civil rights movements and all that stuff. Or, you know, you know, there's if in a in lesser hands, you know, just one more turn of the screw the wrong way, she would be the sassy black friend character. But she's got a lot more dimension and depth in that, I think, especially in that scene where Strickland comes to her house and threatens her and her, you know, husband, which I think is very well done because the husband, you know, kind of gives Eliza up and she like yells at him for it. But you kind of kind of again kind of get where he's coming from. They don't say it out loud, but you understand, OK, this is like this, you know, working class black guy who just had this white military man barge into his house and start threatening to tear the place apart.

And, you know, and it's like he knows that this guy can do what he says and nobody is going to give a shit what happens to him or his wife. So you can see, again, you know why he makes the choice that he does.

[26:26] Andrew DeWolf: And up to that point, he is a comedic foil. He is this goofy character. We don't even see him up until this point. You know, we just hear about, you know, him, Delilah, Zelda talking about him.

[26:36] Christi Esterle: Middle name's Delilah.

[26:36] Andrew DeWolf: Zelda talking about him. You said, Brewster, that man, he never gets out of the couch, no matter what, you know, just complaining about her husband.

[26:49] Christi Esterle: Um, he is in the couch when we see him, too.

[26:51] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's there. He's there.

[26:54] Christi Esterle: Speaking of couches, the other writer of this film is a woman named Vanessa Taylor.

[27:00] Andrew DeWolf: I was going to say, this is the epitome of a woman who's only has one good move in her career. I looked it up while watching this movie. It's insane.

[27:07] Christi Esterle: OK, it's bad.

[27:09] Andrew DeWolf: Do we know what she wrote next?

[27:11] Christi Esterle: Can I can I can I just say, yes, I just want to know if they do.

[27:15] Andrew DeWolf: I do not know.

[27:16] Christi Esterle: I'm not sure I know about this one, but go ahead.

[27:18] Andrew DeWolf: I'm so this woman went from being nominated for Best Original Screenplay to being nominated for Worst Screenplay for Hillbilly Elegy.

[27:27] Christi Esterle: Oh my God, story.

[27:29] Andrew DeWolf: And then her next movie after that, how could you? Her next movie after that was Uglies on Netflix, which is a YA book about ugly people starring hot people.

[27:40] Christi Esterle: OK, so I've actually read that. That's kind of the point is that they live, but they live in this dystopian society where everybody gets plastic surgery to make them, you know, ideally perfect. So like, you know, even if you're like comparatively good looking, according to us, they would consider you ugly. And then they went ahead and like made a trans person the villain. So, yeah. And they made a missing point entirely and kind of introducing new points that don't really work. Also, they claim like Chase Stokes, notable, very attractive guy from Outer Banks, is ugly before he gets a filter on him when he goes to a different city. He's not ugly.

[28:21] Andrew DeWolf: I think you're asking for too much from the director of Charlie's Angels Full Throttle.

[28:25] Christi Esterle: Yeah, that's true.

[28:28] Andrew DeWolf: I do ask too much of McG quite a bit.

[28:36] Jesse McAnally: Hey, guys, sorry to interrupt you about the show, but we've got a shish shish shish shish shill on you. Today's show is brought to you by the extremely kind donations by our donors over at Patreon. Christi is one of those wonderful donors. One of the first, like, and has been there ever since.

[28:51] Christi Esterle: Yeah, long time.

[28:52] Jesse McAnally: And I love you, Christy. I cannot say that enough.

[28:56] Christi Esterle: Oh, over there on Patreon, we got cool stuff. Christy knows all about it, I'm sure. Tell us what's going on there on Patreon, Christy.

[29:03] Christi Esterle: I mean, you can see like the live recording of the episodes. You can vote on future episodes. You can make suggestions. There's communication. There's a lot of inside stuff. So come on over and have and see it. And you see our Discord, too, like like they're wacky over there. We got our own cypher. When Christy shows up for a second before a hangout.

[29:25] Jesse McAnally: Yeah, they're like, oh, Christy's here.

[29:27] Christi Esterle: Oh, Christy's online in the Discord. Holy shit.

[29:32] Jesse McAnally: Current Patrons are Layton A, Ewan Cassidy, Monica Thoreau, Brent Black, Nathaniel Stacey-Kuhn, Carrie A. Hearn, Jon Van Nels, Ross Wecker, Musical Hell, Janae C, nothing is certain except Beth in Texas, Thezbian, Chai Teacup, Chris Marko, Keiji Marie Anastasio, RJ Noriega, Sebastian Canino, Joe, Toriana Frazier, Sammy, The Adequate Amount, Jacobson, Kaylee Blazier, Sofiana Ali, TheOmegaGeek, Maddie Wargell, Elisa Erdman, Evan Ball, Rara Marasso, Mara, Nick Roten, Puffy Boy, Sydney Hicks, Gold Plated Kiki Mora, Aria Arti, Kara Balda, JRL Studios, Fliberty Jigot, Kayla Bailey, Sofia Hurtado, Jessica Popio, Pants Pants, Kristen R, Casey Denning, Ben the Overlord, and Chelsea A. They all give us money to help us keep the lights on here at the Cheez Wheel. If you would like to join them and get all those perks that Chrissy mentioned and so much more, come join us over on Patreon. All right, let's get back to the show!

[30:40] Jesse McAnally: It's time for everyone's favorite part of the show! It's PREVIEWS! It's time for PREVIEWS! If this is your first time listening to the show, this is where Liz Esten pulled real-life Letterboxd reviews, and now Andrew and Chrissy must go head-to-head to guess whether they're a one-star or five-star based on nothing but the review alone! So they aren't all horny. They're pretty horny so far. I can't do an all-horny edition of the Letterboxd game, that's too much. Someone should make an edit of just every Letterboxd game and just be like, oops, all Letterboxd. Oops, all Letterboxd. And then that's like a 10-hour episode. Are you guys ready?

[31:18] Andrew DeWolf: I'm always ready.

[31:21] Jesse McAnally: All right, Andrew, it's me and you. You're first. Okay, okay. Show you how it's done.

[31:27] Liz Esten: I think Chrissy knows how it's done.

[31:32] Jesse McAnally: Oh, anyway, dot dot dot, I want to die, period.

[31:32] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, yeah, okay. What?

[31:41] Liz Esten: That was me after finding out Trump's still alive.

[31:41] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, same. Yeah, maybe they watched that today. They watched this movie today and then they wrote that. Let's see. Anyway, I want to die. Five stars.

[31:49] Jesse McAnally: That is correct! Yeah, five stars, yeah. You thought long and hard about that one, Andrew.

[32:00] Liz Esten: They're upset that they can't have the fish person.

[32:04] Andrew DeWolf: Probably, yeah. I want to crack open that croaka, get in there.

[32:09] Liz Esten: More of a frog person because they actually can live out of the water.

[32:12] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, he's an amphibian, so.

[32:12] Liz Esten: Yeah, yeah, that's his name, Amphibious Man.

[32:21] Andrew DeWolf: What is that green powder they put him on? I feel like if I bathed in that, that would also save my life a lot.

[32:21] Liz Esten: It's algae.

[32:24] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, it's like, I'm not sure what, it's like some sort of like nutritional thing or like fish flakes. I'm not sure what that was supposed to be, but it's there.

[32:32] Liz Esten: The scientist said give it to him like three to five times like a week or something.

[32:36] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, just dump the whole thing in.

[32:38] Liz Esten: Probably some type of algae to like keep the water more salty or some shit.

[32:43] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. I don't know. I don't have a fish.

[32:45] Liz Esten: If I bathed in that, I'd be ready to eat some pussy too. All right, Liz, your turn.

[32:49] Liz Esten: Okay. I'm gonna go after that. All right. Never trust a man who doesn't wash his hands after he takes a piss.

[32:56] Andrew DeWolf: Oh my god, that was so gross. You washed them before, though.

[33:01] Liz Esten: You did, well, yeah, but then why would you wash them before?

[33:05] Andrew DeWolf: You gotta keep your wiener clean.

[33:07] Liz Esten: Well, I think that's the point. He cares more about his own, you know, thing than his dick than he does about anybody else, which is also why he gets like the big phallic Cadillac.

[33:20] Andrew DeWolf: Like, it is baffling that he decides like, you know what? I pissed in front of a lady today. I need a Cadillac.

[33:26] Liz Esten: No, yeah, it's, I mean, and it's not even remotely subtle about, you know, how, you know, this is basically a phallic symbol for Strickland with the way the guy in the dealer is talking about it. Like, this is the car. This is power. This is the car of the future. This is for a man who's going places.

[33:45] Andrew DeWolf: And it has the same energy of Lisa Vanderpump buying herself a car every summer because she can, but in like, but him is negative. Lisa Vanderpump, it's like, hell yeah, buy yourself a Cadillac. I don't care. Do it, Liz.

[34:00] Liz Esten: That's toxic femininity for you.

[34:02] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. And then it, yeah.

[34:03] Liz Esten: But it's just like, you know, again, it's not, you know, American dream, you know, ideal suburban life deconstruction. Anyway, I think that's five stars.

[34:11] Andrew DeWolf: That is a five star.

[34:14] Liz Esten: Brilliant. Andrew.

[34:16] Andrew DeWolf: Yep. Yep. I know which one you're looking at.

[34:20] Liz Esten: Andrew, this is in quotes and then there is a dash attributing it.

[34:25] Andrew DeWolf: All right. Okay.

[34:26] Liz Esten: Okay. So I'm going to do a voice. Sex underwater is hard, boys.

[34:31] Andrew DeWolf: My dad.

[34:36] Liz Esten: I also may have watched this with my parents and my dad did not say anything like that. Nothing weird.

[34:41] Andrew DeWolf: I hear it's not good for like lubrication.

[34:46] Liz Esten: So it's not scientifically.

[34:50] Andrew DeWolf: Listen to a Dear Friends podcast, kids.

[34:53] Liz Esten: Well, it's so it's true, but we're going to go one on this one. That's a five. We love hearing about our parents.

[35:00] Andrew DeWolf: Fucking we do.

[35:03] Liz Esten: We do. We don't.

[35:05] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah. When did this become a thing? Dad, I know you're listening. Tell me more.

[35:10] Liz Esten: I want to know about when I was conceived.

[35:13] Andrew DeWolf: This is dad does listen. He once said, I'm really proud Liz finally stood up to the tune.

[35:18] Liz Esten: Yeah, he once said that.

[35:19] Andrew DeWolf: He once said that Liz, your turn.

[35:23] Liz Esten: All right. I felt a little wrong eating sushi while watching this.

[35:29] Andrew DeWolf: Well, I mean, you know, it's a fish man.

[35:31] Liz Esten: I mean, you think he hasn't been notching on sushi his entire life?

[35:35] Andrew DeWolf: He's a frog man, OK? It's not even the same.

[35:37] Liz Esten: He's kind of he's an obligate carnivore. OK, he's you know, whatever was available in the Amazon. He was probably notching on it.

[35:47] Andrew DeWolf: I'm going to say that's five stars.

[35:48] Liz Esten: That's a one.

[35:51] Andrew DeWolf: There's people that didn't like this movie.

[35:53] Liz Esten: I know there are people who didn't like this movie and they're what we call wrong.

[35:56] Andrew DeWolf: That's correct.

[35:58] Liz Esten: Speaking of which, have you read the reviews for Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein?

[36:03] Andrew DeWolf: Oh, I just saw the one where it's like the guy was complaining about, you know, how the monster was like sympathetic and had daddy issues. And I'm like, OK, so he's acting like he's somebody who read the book.

[36:14] Liz Esten: Yeah, yeah. It's God forbid Guillermo del Toro understands his.

[36:19] Andrew DeWolf: Really? And also it's like, dude, it's Guillermo del Toro. Have you seen any of his movies?

[36:25] Liz Esten: How did you not think this monster was going to be sympathetic and probably a little bit fuckable?

[36:30] Andrew DeWolf: It's like people having a problem with like James Gunn having like tough women like plucky underdog guys. I'm like, guys, it's what he does.

[36:40] Liz Esten: I will say James Gunn's like thing has pivoted to animals. He just loves animals.

[36:44] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, but he's still sticking to that plucky, plucky guy, hardcore one with Peacemaker, hardcore this season. So I, I, I have nothing to add except for Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein looks very good. I'm doing it as a double feature with Coppola's Dracula. And that is my evening.

[37:03] Liz Esten: And that's going to be a blast.

[37:05] Andrew DeWolf: That should be interesting. But yeah, one of the reasons I wanted to do this is because that's coming up in a few weeks. So SEO, it's going to be so good.

[37:10] Liz Esten: It's going to be so good. Well, while we're just chatting about that and we'll get back to the game in a second. Did you like Nightmare Alley?

[37:20] Andrew DeWolf: I have not seen that yet.

[37:23] Liz Esten: OK, I did not like it. And I love Daryl Toro. So I was like, really? I don't know. A lot of my friends are just like, yeah, it's like the best thing. I'm like, you're on drugs.

[37:31] Andrew DeWolf: Is it my turn?

[37:33] Liz Esten: I don't know. I think it's my turn.

[37:34] Andrew DeWolf: But yeah, it's Andrew's turn.

[37:36] Liz Esten: But your turn to read, Andrew.

[37:38] Andrew DeWolf: Mm hmm. Ella's friends didn't kink shame her at all, even when she literally fucked a fish.

[37:45] Liz Esten: Elisa's friends.

[37:47] Andrew DeWolf: Wait, does it say Elisa or Ella?

[37:50] Liz Esten: It says Elisa.

[37:51] Andrew DeWolf: It says Elisa. I'm dyslexic. OK, that's important, because if they didn't know the main character's name. This woman has a variation of my full name. It's important it's pronounced correctly. That could change things.

[38:02] Andrew DeWolf: OK, what did Elsa say?

[38:05] Liz Esten: She said, let it go.

[38:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, let it go. And then she also said that other one.

[38:09] Liz Esten: Eliza.

[38:10] Andrew DeWolf: It's like Eliza with an S.

[38:12] Liz Esten: Yeah, but it's like, yeah, it's spelled with an S. So whatever.

[38:16] Andrew DeWolf: So no kink shaming for fish fucking is the summary.

[38:19] Liz Esten: No kink shaming from the other characters.

[38:23] Andrew DeWolf: That's a five.

[38:25] Liz Esten: That is correct. And let's do like, let's wrap this up here, Liz. One more for you.

[38:29] Liz Esten: OK, I swear peeling a boiled egg isn't that easy.

[38:37] Andrew DeWolf: Maybe if you're like a fish guy.

[38:39] Liz Esten: Yeah. Well, no, she's really good at it. She just splits it clean in half somehow.

[38:43] Andrew DeWolf: It's yeah.

[38:44] Liz Esten: Yeah. Either, you know, peeling eggs is either really easy or really hard. And I've never figured out how you manage to get it really easy.

[38:50] Andrew DeWolf: I'm going to say that's a one star.

[38:52] Liz Esten: That's a five.

[38:53] Andrew DeWolf: OK, I don't know. I apparently do not know how to judge letterbox DVDs.

[38:58] Liz Esten: It was a wishful thinking.

[39:01] Andrew DeWolf: You still won, though, I'm pretty sure.

[39:03] Liz Esten: Nope, nope. I only got one wrong.

[39:05] Andrew DeWolf: We had to at least tie.

[39:07] Liz Esten: Andrew won. He got one wrong and I got two.

[39:11] Andrew DeWolf: Damn. Well, Andrew, how do you feel about your victory here?

[39:14] Jesse McAnally: Trying to steal my win from me.

[39:16] Andrew DeWolf: I studied this movie.

[39:18] Liz Esten: Andrew, did not update your points until after I started talking.

[39:21] Jesse McAnally: Well, the thing is, Jess, behind the scenes, just put his cursor on Andrew's points. And I thought he was updating them and I just couldn't see it. And I was confused because I usually cross it off while he does Andrew's points.

[39:33] Andrew DeWolf: I did not know that was what we did here.

[39:35] Liz Esten: I thought that's what we did here. You get someone like Jess, who's a decent man, doesn't do anything wrong for years. Then he fucks up one time. And then he does one fuck up. And we never shut up about it.

[39:52] Jesse McAnally: I gotta say, top tier monologue from like a shitter.

[39:55] Liz Esten: Actually, it was really good.

[39:57] Andrew DeWolf: And then the other guy is like, he just is like, no. You're going to wind up in a universe of shit.

[40:02] Liz Esten: Caramel Del Toro has a way with words.

[40:06] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, that's another thing from the novelization is that there's like this whole backstory about, you know, how General Hoyt kind of holds this stuff, holds, has this hold on Strickland because, you know, he knows Strickland did a few war crimes in Korea. So, or he kind of persuaded him to do war crimes. And then he said, OK, you know, now your ass is mine.

[40:28] Liz Esten: I mean, who hasn't done a couple of those?

[40:31] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, nowadays, that'll get you a good government job.

[40:40] Liz Esten: I do kind of want to talk about how this ties up into American politics. Everyone's favorite topic of the day.

[40:48] Andrew DeWolf: It is definitely a film written and taking place in the first Trump administration within that first year. In Caramel Del Toro's own words, when people describe Making America Great Again, they're referring to the year 1962, which is why he said in the year 1962.

[41:08] Liz Esten: I'm curious how it has aged, not that it's aged badly at all, but how these opinions of American politics from 2017 reflect differently today in 2025 than it did in 2017.

[41:23] Andrew DeWolf: I think, if anything, they're more relevant because this is a movie that's all about celebrating people who have been othered by their society and, you know, emphasizing the importance of intersectionality, of alliance between them, basically.

[41:45] Liz Esten: Intersectionality.

[41:46] Andrew DeWolf: That's what I was trying to say. You went full Porky Pig on that.

[41:51] Liz Esten: But that's kind of basically Giles's arc in this. He starts off, one of his first scenes, he and Eliza are getting ready for their day and TV's on. It's something about some protest march. Black people are getting attacked by dogs. They're getting beaten. He says, turn that off. Turn that off. I don't want to watch that. Turn it on to the happy musical. And at first, when Eliza comes to him for help trying to get the fish creature, because she knows they're about ready to dissect the poor guy, he's like, you know, we can't do anything. This has nothing to do with us, you know. And he gets a big telling off from her. And, you know, then he goes to, you know, the pie shop where he's, you know, kind of, you know, crushing on the owner.

And he kind of flirts with him a bit. And the guy freaks out. And, you know, at the same time, you know, this black couple comes in and the guy goes, you know, hey, you can't come in here. You can't sit down there, you know, even though it's an empty cafe. And I think that kind of, you know, kind of clicks in his mind. It's like, you know, the people who are, you know, on the outside, they're my people, you know, they're like me. And I can't just shove them away just because I don't want to think about it.

[43:05] Andrew DeWolf: Nowadays, we're talking, you know, they're trying to other trans people, deporting immigrants. I mean, the importance of actually, you know, looking out for other people, I think, is even more important than it was in 2017.

[43:19] Liz Esten: I completely agree. I think, if anything, the only thing that's aged poorly is that the villains are just real now, whereas before they were maybe exaggerated.

[43:30] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, they might have felt a little exaggerated, although, you know, I'm not sure how much exaggerated. I mean, you know, 1962, this literally takes place days before the Cuban Missile Crisis. There is, you can hear JFK giving a speech about it during, like, I'm pretty sure it's the scene where Giles is coming up to the security check. It adds a political climate, and that's not focusing on, but it is definitely there, and is reflecting the themes played with here.

[44:03] Liz Esten: Right, and like you say, you know, it's something that a lesser director or lesser writer would have, you know, beaten into the ground, but it's just kind of prevalent in the background throughout the entire movie.

[44:48] Andrew DeWolf: We're saying he's better than the real people?

[44:50] Christi Esterle: Well, I mean, look at where we're at right now.

[44:52] Liz Esten: Yeah, I guess you compare him to, like, Pete Hegseth, and it's like, oh my god.

[44:56] Andrew DeWolf: I mean, I'm sure they all think they're Michael Shannon to a degree.

[45:00] Christi Esterle: They're like, well, I have a good reason for X, Y, Z, and it's like, no, you don't.

[45:04] Liz Esten: No, you don't. You're trying to suck Trump's dick. That's your reason.

[45:08] Andrew DeWolf: Can someone bite their fingers off, please?

[45:10] Christi Esterle: I think there's a beautiful irony in that, though, in that the fish creature, you know, he's cruel to this creature, and then, you know, obviously it behaves, it does what it does, and it bites off, you know, its limbs, a couple of his fingers in self-defense, and then for the rest of the time, he's got, like, these fingers that are slowly, you know, turning, you know, black and gangrenous, and they get, like, more disgusting all the time.

[45:34] Liz Esten: There's, like, you know, one part where he's actually in the car, and he's squeezing pus out of it, and it's legitimately disgusting.

[45:40] Christi Esterle: But the thing about the fish creature is, is that it has healing properties. So, you know, this ability to heal himself was right in front of him this entire time, and he would never, he never gets it, and he never sees it, because, until the very end, you know, when it heals himself, and he says, you know, like, he said, fuck, you are a god, right before he dies, and he never saw it, just because he thought it was, you know, just this monster that he needed to tame and, you know, open up, so that they could figure out how it works and steal its secrets.

[46:17] Andrew DeWolf: One aspect that we have not spoken about is the Red Scare Russia side plot going on here.

[46:24] Christi Esterle: Oh, no, yeah, we gotta talk about that.

[46:26] Liz Esten: Um, Dimitri is one of the coolest characters in this movie, and I love him, and he is 100% a Russian spy.

[46:33] Christi Esterle: Oh, yeah, he's definitely Russian.

[46:35] Liz Esten: Oh, totally. He is, but that's the thing, is that, you know, he's got nuance. I mean, yes, he's there to, you know, like, you know, steal secrets for the state, and, again, you know, this is, you know, it's in the book, I don't think it's in the movie, but it is kind of implied, you know, that they're kind of, you know, not so gently implying that he has to do this, or, you know, something bad is gonna happen to his parents back home, but, at the same time, you know, he's got principle. I mean, he sees this creature for what it is, you know, a being of intelligence and empathy and beauty, and he's like, you know, this is more important than, you know, who's getting to the moon first. This is, you know, a rare, marvelous species that we need to, you know, protect and not just crack open, but to satisfy our own selfish needs.

[47:29] Andrew DeWolf: Also, this is unrelated, but the main thing I remember from this Oscar season is which Michael Stuhlberg movie is gonna win Best Picture, and he was in three of them.

[47:36] Christi Esterle: So, he was in The Post, Calling By Your Name, and this one, so.

[47:43] Liz Esten: Ooh, those are three good movies.

[47:45] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and he was in all three of them. I still think this is my favorite of the three, but it's a hard choice.

[47:50] Christi Esterle: I love The Post.

[47:57] Andrew DeWolf: What is our overall thoughts on The Shape of Water and our cheese ratings? Andrew, why don't you start us off?

[48:04] Andrew DeWolf: So, I thought it was very good. Very, very good. I enjoyed it a lot more than I actually expected. I did expect to enjoy it. I just thought it was gonna be sappier than it was, but it is not that. And honestly, it is prescient for the time, I'd say. Pretty relevant right now, and definitely a really good watch for anyone who hasn't seen it like me. I really liked the, we didn't really talk about it too much, but the costume, the fish costume is really good. It looks really real. It doesn't feel like somebody wearing a costume. Obviously, it is, but I don't know. It just works. It's a really well-shot, well-made movie, and I recommend it, definitely. For cheese rating, hmm. I really wish that there was more of a prevalent cheese in the movie, because there's the eggs. There's the eggs recurring, but there's nothing with cheese, really. I guess you could give it cheesecake. Huh. Yeah, we'll give it cheesecake, because I feel like that sort of appears.

[49:18] Christi Esterle: All right, Christy, you're next.

[49:20] Christi Esterle: Okay, so, yeah, as you can tell by how I keep going on about this, I adore this movie. I could talk about it for probably another hour and not run out of things to say. It's visually beautiful. It's well-written. It's got a fantastic ensemble cast. And, like you say, it's a very positive and uplifting without being overly sappy or sentimental. And it's just got this beautiful fairy tale quality that I absolutely adore. So, I am going to give it Smoked Gouda, which is one of my favorite cheeses, just because it's got so many different nuances about it and so many different levels about this movie that we've talked about and could continue to talk about. So, yeah, if you haven't seen this movie, for God's sake, go out and do it right now.

[50:13] Liz Esten: I wholeheartedly agree. Liz, you're next.

[50:16] Liz Esten: I love this movie. I think it hits differently now, especially with the theme of let's just keep out for each other. It reminds me a lot why Superman 2025 hit me so hard. Let's just be nice to each other. It's not that difficult, guys. Even in challenging times, we can be kind. This movie is uplifting, and it's sincere, and it does it really well. We didn't bring it up a lot at all, but Sally Hawkins is incredible.

[50:43] Christi Esterle: She is.

[50:44] Liz Esten: So much I looked up her competition to see why she didn't win, and I kind of see why, but I'm also like, eh. Frances McDormand won for No Bad Land this year, which I get, but I'm also like, I think she should have won, but that's just me. She's incredible. Everyone's incredible. I love this movie. It's great. I'm going to give it Cheese Dreams, which appears to be an old recipe from the 60s. It's like a mini grilled cheese. They look really cute, actually.

[51:07] Christi Esterle: That sounds like something like Lainey, the wife, would be making for her kid.

[51:12] Liz Esten: Yeah, and then he'd be like, what the fuck is that?

[51:17] Christi Esterle: Yeah, the book actually has this whole subplot about her, and she's only in a couple of movies, but she's got this great subplot in the book, which, again, is another reason why I recommend it.

[51:27] Andrew DeWolf: I got something I want to read now.

[51:30] Christi Esterle: Yeah, same here. I haven't read a novelization in a while. I've seen mixed reception on Goodreads, but it's mostly positive.

[51:37] Liz Esten: Who trusts Goodreads? Those are bad reads.

[51:40] Christi Esterle: That's terrible.

[51:42] Liz Esten: Speaking of terrible, I am giving this Chili Con Carne, because, you know, it's green colored, and that's kind of the vibe of the movie, and, you know, I wanted to give some food that kind of comes back to Guillermo del Toro's Mexican heritage and all that.

[51:58] Christi Esterle: A little bit of spice.

[52:00] Liz Esten: Yes, and the thing I want to talk about that I did not bring up previously is how this is a love letter to cinema, and not like in the traditional sense of the movie theater downstairs is playing Citizen Kane and singing in the rain. It's playing musicals no one's heard of, like deep cut musical follies, pulls. Yeah, it's like this movie they're actually playing is called The Story of Ruth, which is this very little known biblical epic. But if you look into it, there's actually some parallels, because one of the things, it's like they have a fish god in the civilization. So there's that. But it's not like, you know, the traditional, like, I like Babylon, but that movie is in love with the most famous 500 movies of the last 100 years, and this is in love with, you know, B-movies and forgotten musicals.

[52:56] Christi Esterle: Yeah, there's like, oh geez, the musical sequence is after, I think, Top Hat. It's like one of the old Astaire Rogers films is where they got the set from. But again, it's not like singing in the rain or something that absolutely everybody knows.

[53:14] Liz Esten: No, and it works so well to make this its own piece that is also a love letter to obscure media like, you know, monster movies and musicals. And I love it. Cannot recommend it more. I'm excited for Frankenstein.

[53:30] Andrew DeWolf: I am curious to our friend Andrew and Liz, do you like this better or worse than the Pinocchio film that we've covered previously?

[53:38] Liz Esten: I wasn't on that episode. I still need to see that.

[53:42] Andrew DeWolf: I've never seen it. I'm sure it's pretty good. What I will say is I thought Crimson Peak was a piece of shit.

[53:50] Christi Esterle: What?

[53:50] Andrew DeWolf: Crimson Peak is my favorite Telltale movie.

[53:52] Christi Esterle: I hate Crimson Peak.

[53:54] Andrew DeWolf: I can definitely see why you wouldn't like Crimson Peak. I mean, I did, but it's definitely one of those that is not for every taste.

[54:02] Christi Esterle: Yeah, I think I called it a glittery piece of crap. Like, it looks really pretty, but the inside I am uncompelled by.

[54:08] Andrew DeWolf: Yeah, and there's a lot of character dynamics where it's, you know, it's creepy and I think it's intentionally creepy, but at the same time it probably pushes a lot of people's limits onto, you know, okay, they just crossed the line and I've got nothing to say to these characters. Also, I can only do so many ghost jumpscares before I check out. I'm like, I get it. There's ghosts. Can we move on?

[54:32] Christi Esterle: But the ghosts are the good guys!

[54:34] Andrew DeWolf: I am aware of that, but there's too many jumpscares. I feel for you. I have a pretty low tolerance for jumpscares. Costumes are great, though. So, you know, shout out to them.

[54:45] Christi Esterle: Um, alright. It's time to spin the wheel.

[54:49] Andrew DeWolf: I updated the wheel, Jess. I know what we're covering next week, I guess.

[54:53] Christi Esterle: Wait, hold on. I updated the wheel, so.

[54:55] Andrew DeWolf: Here it is. Look at the wheel.

[54:57] Christi Esterle: It's so beautiful.

[54:59] Andrew DeWolf: I hope the wheel doesn't betray us.

[55:01] Christi Esterle: Yeah.

[55:03] Andrew DeWolf: Here we go. We're gonna spin it. One, two, three. Look at that go. Oh my god.

[55:07] Christi Esterle: Oh my gosh.

[55:09] Andrew DeWolf: I'm so cool that there's a real wheel.

[55:11] Christi Esterle: We have a real wheel, guys.

[55:13] Andrew DeWolf: We put money into this and we did this. We didn't even use your money. We used our own money to fund the wheel. It cost 4.8 million dollars. We are in so much debt. We're in so much debt. Please. Please give us money.

[55:27] Christi Esterle: Oh my god!

[55:29] Andrew DeWolf: Holy reheated nachos, Batman. Next week, we are talking about, for the fourth time, the music man. Wow.

[55:39] Liz Esten: Everyone loves it when we talk about the music man.

[55:43] Andrew DeWolf: Guys, have we covered it enough times yet?

[55:45] Christi Esterle: Yeah. I wasn't on those episodes, so. But hey, there's still more to say.

[55:51] Andrew DeWolf: Honestly, a perfect thing. I love the music man. I think, I thought that my opinion on it would change as I got older. Nah, still great. The issue is, everyone else seems to think it isn't great and wants to fuck up the lyrics. Thanks, Hugh Jackman.

[56:09] Christi Esterle: I guess, if you want to hear us talk about that, and maybe with a cool special guest of someone that may or may not like musicals, wink wink, you're going to have to check us out next week.

[56:19] Christi Esterle: Christy, you are wonderful. Thank you for joining us. Please promote your stuff for the world to see.

[56:23] Christi Esterle: Okay. I am still on YouTube and Twitter, Tumblr, and Blue Sky at Musical Hell. I just released a riff on another terrible Golden Films animated mockbuster. Come check it out. I'm a little erratic, just because life is like that right now, but I'm trying to get stuff out. I know people want me to talk about K-pop demon hunters. I'll probably want to talk about the second part of Wicked, Kiss of the Spiderwoman, so there's a lot of stuff coming up which will hopefully be on there at some point in the future. If you can, I would love to do another one of those Wicked for Wicked Part 2.

[57:03] Andrew DeWolf: Let's get Tommy and Emily together and do Part 2.

[57:09] Christi Esterle: Let's do it. Make a date. Andrew and I will do our own thing. I think that's all we have to say. We will see you next time on The Cheese Wheel Podcast. Bye bye.