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[0:18] David Rigano: Hello, hello, and welcome.

[0:26] David Rigano: Oh start. Welcome to the Drama Book Show at the Drama Book Shop. It is so nice to see so many returning faces, both audience returning and former Drama Book Show guests returning. Thank you so much all for being here. I'm David Rigano. I host the events here at the Drama Book Shop. We do these events pretty much once a week, so we love to see returning faces. If you don't know, you are at a live recording of the official Drama Book Shop podcast, The Drama Book Show. We are distributed through Broadway Podcast Network. We are also so thankful to have a representative from Broadway Podcast Network here with us tonight. You can find it there or wherever you get your podcasts, if that's on Spotify or Apple Music or YouTube, whatever it is, we have a 35 episode first season and up to 20 episodes of season two.

55 episodes out already that you can go listen to, and some of our guests who are here tonight are on some of those episodes. If you want to know when this one is gonna go live, please follow @dramabookshowpodcast on Instagram. And you all have to sign up on Eventbrite to be here tonight. So if you subscribe to the Drama Book Shop through Eventbrite, you will be notified every time we add an event to our calendar because, as I said, we do these pretty much once a week, sometimes twice a week, and we would love to see your smiling faces at more of these in the future.

[2:11] David Rigano: Tonight. Oh, I've been looking forward to tonight. There are some Broadway nerds in here who know me very well and know how much I love Carrie the Musical. We are here for Out for Blood with Chris Adams and guests. The book adaptation of the podcast that is also on Broadway Podcast Network about the history of Carrie the Musical. So I'm gonna tell you a little bit that you probably already know about some of our guests. Chris Adams is the author of Out for Blood, a cultural history of Carrie the Musical. Now, which one? The 2024 Theatre Book Prize awarded by the Society of Theatre Research in London. He was also the co-creator and co-host of Out for Blood, a podcast exploring the turbulent creation and history of the show, which is a breakout hit on the Broadway Podcast Network because we love some cross-promoting.

His day job is in marketing for a producer of West End musicals. He has brought some guests with him. Later, we are going to be joined by Jak Malone, a self-confessed fan of Carrie the Musical and all things musical and macabre. He's currently starring as Hester and others in Operation Mincemeat, for which, as we know, he won an Olivier Award. Another special guest, good friend of the show and the podcast, Joe Iconis, who is featured in the book as a Carrie mega fan from an early age to share his up-close experience with the Carrie bootleg community and some close encounters with some of its stars. Please help me in welcoming Chris Adams.

[4:07] Chris Adams: Thank you. Hi. Real people. Yeah, I know. I'm very nervous. This is pure, this is pure vodka. Just getting to as any event surrounding Carrie should be. So let's start at the very beginning, which Julie Andrews told me was a very good place to start. How did your obsession with Carrie come about?

[4:31] Chris Adams: Wow. So I think it came about a long time ago when I was a teenager. I used to love reading Stephen King's novels, as many teens do. And it was kind of my mission to read as many of them as possible. But my particular favorite was Carrie, and I'd never really read anything like it. It's such a unique book, if I'm sure you've all read it, but it's made up of prose and letters and news reports and all sorts of different types of writing. And it was like nothing I'd ever read before. So that kind of hooked me in. But I was also a huge theater kid at school as well. I'm sure many people in the room will recognize that. So imagine my surprise when I found this kind of crossover world. Someone had taken that novel and turned it into a musical.

The very concept was just kind of mind-blowing to me. And so I kind of held it with me, and I did that thing where the internet was kind of coming to life in the mid-90s. That shows my age. And I kind of started finding out more and more about the show, watching clips of it, and yeah, I just it kind of just grabbed me. And there was something about it that was just this kind of crazy ambitious, kind of insane world that someone had created. And as I got to university, I met my good friend Holly Morgan, who is the other voice on the podcast. Oh yeah, Holly. She will love that. And we did a show together in Edinburgh what feels like centuries ago, Bat Boy, which is another kind of slightly, yeah.

And it's one of those kind of shows of a similar vein, which kind of is a bit crazy and dark and macabre, but we spent that month in Edinburgh just basically talking about Carrie the Musical and quoting it at each other and singing it all the time. So we then through our friendship to this day, we kind of still talk about it and eventually skip forward many years later to the pandemic. We were kind of like we found ourselves with nothing to do. And I work in theater and I was kind of at home. Holly and her husband Tom, who was our editor, had their own podcast and had all the equipment, and we kind of started talking. We were like, what could we make a podcast? We're funny people too. We could make a podcast.

And we thought, wouldn't it be cool to kind of do something about Carrie? Because we knew the story that everyone kind of had read about that kind of top-line Wikipedia version of the story, I guess. But we thought there's more to this, and wouldn't it be cool to use this time to track people down and get them to kind of share their memories? And they did, and it was yeah, the rest is history. Some pretty amazing guests.

[7:09] Chris Adams: We did, we were really lucky. I think you know, the timing of that really helped us because all of those people, too, you know, who had nothing to do. They work in theater, they work adjacent to theater and they love it, and they were not only at home, they were desperate to talk to other people about this kind of industry that they loved and this job that they love doing. So we were just so lucky. And the more people that we spoke to, the more introductions we had, it was kind of a domino effect, and we just ended up, we had to kind of hone the craft a little bit because the first few interviews we did, we would spend like an hour and a half, two hours on Zoom to these people. Who God knows what they thought of us.

And then we had to kind of figure out how to do that better because there were just so many interviews to do. But yeah, we were so lucky that so many people just hold this show in their heart and were just kind of so passionately speaking about it that we were able to kind of harvest all of those stories.

[8:05] David Rigano: I think I was probably like five to ten years behind you, and it was the early 2000s that I was in college, and I had seen the movie like in middle school, at like a sleepover, we're gonna like watch Carrie, and it's completely inappropriate. So like I was a like, oh, they made that, and I knew that it was a massive flop. So I'm like, well, then I must know. Yes, exactly. I must know everyone. Tell me that there is. And I know that we'll delve into this, but like you had to go digging at that time to find anything, and you had to know someone who knew someone who knew someone who had a bootleg.

[8:41] Chris Adams: Yeah, exactly. It was like a dark web before the dark web existed. And as I mentioned to you, the title song was my first custom ringtone. Yeah, well, that's the phone. That age. And so someone would call, yeah, someone would call me, and my phone would go, it would be Lindsay Hatley going, "Carrie, I am the sounder." And I'd go, "Oh, Carrie's singing to me, excuse me." And I think I'm but for anyone who somehow found their way here and does not know the history, or perhaps only knows the current updated version. Can you talk to us a little bit about the turbulent history?

[9:17] Chris Adams: I can. Yeah, this is something I know a thing or two. No, it's kind of, I think, yeah, Carrie is kind of the headline flop from Broadway history. And but there's something more to the story. It's not just a flop that came and went and everybody forgot about. So I think if it's okay with you, I'll read the opening chapter of this.

[9:38] Chris Adams: Let's hear a little bit. Um, which kind of summarizes it in a nutshell. And I'm sorry if my voice goes, I've got this kind of croaky voice at the moment. But here we go. Horror show. It had so much going for it. It was a balmy Friday afternoon in August 1984. As producers and Broadway bigwigs buzzed around a folding table at the back of a rehearsal studio to claim a cool glass of white wine. There was excitement in the air. These potential investors, producers, and theater owners had come out to enjoy a semi-staged presentation of the first half of a much anticipated new musical. And now they chatted with the young, excited writers and performers about what might lie ahead. And I'm going to interrupt because one of those performers is in the room, the legendary Annie Golden is like.

Hi, Annie. Annie was the original musical Carrie, as well as having kind of a legendary career on stage and screen. So thank you so much, Annie, for being here. It's an honor. I'll get back to it. She's gonna be like, no, this happened. This is all lies. Where did I get to? Excuse me. Little did the assembled crowd know that they had witnessed the earliest incarnation of what would become known as one of Broadway's most notorious disasters, and that decades later it would still be generating regular magazine headlines like "Is Carrie the Worst Musical of All Time?" Carrie had a stellar creative team comprising Oscar-winning composer and lyricist duo Michael Gore and Dean Pitchford, fresh off the back of Fame.

And lauded screenwriter Lawrence D. Cohen, who had written the script for Brian De Palma's critically acclaimed 1976 movie adaptation of Stephen King's best-selling debut novel. I write really long sentences, I just realized that. And perhaps somewhat incongruously, it would soon have the backing of the Royal Shakespeare Company, one of the world's most recognizable and respected stage companies, and its Olivier-winning Tony-nominated artistic director, Terry Hands. It was certainly not traditional Broadway fare. The unlikely tale of a teenager with telekinetic powers triggered by her first period. A high school horror in which almost everyone is dead by the final curtain. Not unlike the bloodbath which ends the show, Carrie would itself be met with some of the most savage reviews in critical history.

That response would lend Carrie an almost mythical status in popular culture and make it a byword for theatrical disasters. Even as recently as November 2021, after a critical panning following the arrival of Diana the Musical on Netflix, the Broadway News blog asked if the show was the Carrie de Nejur. And that show closed a few weeks after its COVID-delayed Broadway opening. For many years, it had the dubious honor of not only being Broadway's most infamous flop, but its most expensive, losing an unheard-of investment somewhere in the region of $8 million, which is equivalent to about $20 million as of writing. But for scale, a modern Broadway flop, like 2010's Spider-Man Turn Off the Dark, doesn't get out of bed for less than $60 million.

Carrie, in one of many head-scratching twists in the tale, opened in Stratford-upon-Avon, the sleepy birthplace of William Shakespeare and Home of the RSC. It was a location that felt geographically and culturally about as far from the show's typical American high school setting as one could get. As unlikely as the pairing of material and producer may have been, the company was not unfamiliar with creating new mega musicals, having co-produced Les Misérables a couple of years earlier. That show, although somewhat of a departure from the company's core work, was at least closer to its traditional output, an epic period adaptation of classic literature. And I didn't mean that period pun in that.

I just realized that's in there. Yikes. That show, I've just read it. It also premiered in London rather than Stratford, arguably a safer testing ground for major new musicals. Reaction to the news that the country's premier theatrical troupe would be taking on what many regarded as a pulpy horror novel with menstruation at the center of its plot would cause quite the stir. The British critics would soon trash almost every aspect of the show, declaring that the company had sold its soul to commercial Broadway producers and lost its way. After a long, strained rehearsal process and a tumultuous three weeks on stage in the British heartlands, Carrie would, doggedly and largely unchanged, other than the high-profile replacement of a leading lady, make the leap to Broadway. All eyes would be on this strange new show after whispers about its more unusual components had made their way across the pre-Internet Atlantic.

[14:11] Chris Adams: A new vulturous batch of critics hovered, rumors swirled that it may not make it past opening night. It did, barely. After 16 previews and five regular performances, Carrie closed suddenly, its dream of Broadway success snatched away like Carrie White's own glimpse of acceptance at the prom. That might have been where this tale ends, but something unusual happened. Carrie quickly became legendary in theatrical circles, and in the years that followed, the curious tale of this peculiar episode in Broadway history spread far and wide. In the face of steely silence from those involved in its creation, and without an official cast album for fans to consult, urban legends soon grew around the show, its songs, its questionable design aesthetic, and its turbulent creation.

These tales were propagated by the steady appearance of illicitly recorded audio and videotapes, which not only painted a picture of a troubled show in perpetual flux, but also fed fans tasters of songs both soaring and silly. With an outright block on new productions of the show, they provided the only samples of a show that would remain perpetually just out of reach. They also presented primary evidence of the infamous audience response, which seemed to oscillate wildly between showstopping standing evasions one moment and guffaws of disbelief the next. Stoking the mystique, Ken Mandelbaum's seminal 1991 book on musical flops, Not Since Carrie, cemented the show as the byword for theatrical turkeys, and the show has regularly topped the charts in articles about famous follies in the years since.

With the emergence of online message boards and eventually video sharing sites, new generations of theatre kids discovered the show and delved into its lore, perhaps attracted by its surprisingly powerful tale of an underdog rising up to defeat her tormentors. Some friends of Carrie went a step further, producing their own show merchandise, or even staging unauthorized productions. Eventually came Carrie's Redemption, as two decades after the doomed original, the authors agreed to a rewrite and revival. Now Carrie is one of the most produced shows in colleges and community groups, and its 2012 cast recording has racked up millions of streams and downloads. The show has won awards and been translated into several different languages.

This much maligned musical was even the inspiration for an episode of teen drama series Riverdale, exposing it to a league of new mainstream viewers. All the attention on the new Carrie has revitalized interest in the original production and in some arenas prompted serious critical reappraisal of it. Carrie did as all good horror heroines should. She came back from the dead.

[17:14] David Rigano: And I had been following the history. But I had these friends who knew nothing. I think some of whom we even knew nothing about Carrie, the novel or the movie. Just were there to see how bad it was. And then by the ending, they were like, What? They were not emotionally prepared for what they saw.

[17:30] Chris Adams: Yeah, because it had been turned into such a good show. I mean, the cast of that show told us that there was so much pressure because they were expected to do the show well because so many people were coming to see the car crash, and that wasn't what they were there to show them.

[17:52] David Rigano: So, speaking of the cast of that show and your multiple other guests, this, as you mentioned, had such notoriety, Not Since Carrie is one of my staff recommendations here. So when you were reaching out to people after something like 40 years to talk to them, was there anyone who was maybe a little bit hesitant to be so culturally ingrained with this infamous flop? Or were there people who kind of wore it as a badge of honor?

[18:23] Chris Adams: Yeah, or were there and or were there people who kind of wore it as a badge of honor? I think if we'd done the podcast kind of 20 years ago, it would have been much harder to get people to talk about it. But I think now most of the cast almost have it as a badge of honor. They're proud of it and they want to talk about it because I think they had such a rough experience that they kind of want to correct the record a little bit. And the urban legends did grow so crazy that I think they all kind of wanted to sit down and say, actually, this is what happened. We were a real bunch of young people thrown into this mad experience experiment, and this is how it went down. So I think you know, most people we were surprised.

We you know, people were saying, Yeah, we'd love to talk about it. And you know, we weren't sure whether we'd get Lindsay Hatley, who played Carrie in the original Stratford on Broadway production, because she hadn't done that many interviews about it, and I think had been quite restricted about what she said about it. But we were like it would be amazing to get her because she's such a backbone of this story, and she said, I will talk to you about it, but I'd love to do it as part of a group, actually. And we were like, Yeah, of course. So we managed to get together this kind of group of about four or five of the British cast in person, in between lockdowns. So we were outside in somebody's garden, so we couldn't kind of spread the disease amongst us or spread out nicely. And we had a few other...

[19:46] David Rigano: That's all you needed for Carrie to kill a bunch of people.

[19:51] Chris Adams: Exactly. That would have been a bad ending. And we had some more people on Zoom, and it was great. It was like this four-hour session where they just kind of spilled these stories, and we have hours and hours of tapes of them just telling these incredible stories of being in the show, which is sort of why the book happened in the end, because there was just so much material that we couldn't squeeze into the podcast, even though the podcast is very long. You know, there was just so much more that we had at our disposal.

[20:16] David Rigano: And when you speak of urban legends, there's one that I had heard for years joked about, yes, which I learned from your podcast was not an urban legend. It was the truth.

[20:30] Chris Adams: Okay. Make it like Greece.

[20:33] David Rigano: Yeah, I mean, it depends who you ask. So the story does everyone know this? I think you all know the story, right? So Terry Hands, who was used to directing Shakespeare and classical plays, basically at the RSC, one of the early producers had told him it would be great if you could make this show a bit more like Greece, if possible, like Greece, like Danny and Sandy, all that kind of stuff. And he apparently misunderstood and thought they were talking about classical Greece. So, like Greek tragedy, so which is where all the kind of very toga-esque costumes and things come from. I don't think it's true because Terry Hands was a very smart guy. I don't think he'd be like, Oh, okay, let's just put everyone in a toga and have a three course and stuff. I think that's what he saw the story as this kind of almost this sort of metaphor, this classical metaphor. The characters kind of translate very neatly into Greek tragedy. So that's kind of the approach he was taking.

[21:33] David Rigano: Yeah. They were doing something that was in line with their mission.

[21:37] Chris Adams: Yeah, exactly. I think it brought a sort of slightly more serious edge and persuaded that you know the British press reaction to the RSC doing this was just off the charts. They were just appalled by the idea of it. And I think this was a much safer world for him to live in and to talk about. And you know, if it had worked, it would have been a really neat thing to do. But some of it didn't work. I think it might have been the mix of togas with like leather and chains that didn't quite work.

[22:06] David Rigano: Was there anyone who you really wanted to talk to for the podcast who you didn't get?

[22:11] Chris Adams: Yes, Debbie Allen. Where is she? Is she here? I totally understand because Debbie Allen is like a superstar, and you know, very busy lady. And why would she want to talk about this thing that happened to her 40 years ago? But there came a couple of moments where I got so close, and at one point I was talking to her PA and he was like, Yeah, what sure, what time do you want to speak to Debbie? I was like, ah, and then he ghosted me completely. But I think she would have I don't know where I don't think she has anything against the show. I think she just probably doesn't want to talk about it. But if Debbie is out there and has a couple of hours free, we'd love to do a special episode.

[22:54] David Rigano: A new special episode.

[22:55] Chris Adams: Yeah, yes. I would love to hear her perspective.

[22:58] David Rigano: Yeah, exactly. And you know, there were a few people who were no longer with us who are involved in the show. It would have been incredible to speak to Terry Hands when he sadly passed away a few years ago, but apparently was very honest and open about his experience when he did speak to people about it. So that would have been amazing. And yeah, those are the main ones. We didn't have two of the writers when we were doing the podcast because they had other projects, but I was really lucky to be able to speak to them for the book. Great. I think once the podcast had sort of done its job and people could see that we weren't just there to make fun of this, a lot more people were willing to kind of do the interview for the book, which was great.

[23:35] David Rigano: So what did you know going into it that you expected to hear about and talk about it? And what were some surprises that you may have learned along the way in your interviews?

[23:50] Chris Adams: I think you know, we'd as I said earlier, we were sort of very familiar with that top line kind of apocryphal version of events that everyone had sort of spun into this frenzy of urban legends on the internet over the years. I think what really hit us hard when we were doing the podcast was that these people were very young. Most of the cast was very young. A lot of them, this was their well, most of them, this was their first Broadway job, especially. And it was very traumatic. It was a very kind of traumatic event for them. They were kind of promised a lot, and it was very quickly snatched away from them. And I think a lot of them were like, Do they blame us? Lynn, I don't want to speak for Lindsay, but she was very much like, you know, are people gonna blame me?

I'm 17 and I'm the center of this thing and it's closed. Is it people gonna say it's my fault? So I think that was a surprise was that it had almost been treated like a joke for a long time, and there are very silly aspects of this story, and that is what makes it so appealing to people. But at the end of the day, it was people's lives for a long time, and I think that's what really hit home. So I think that was the surprise. In terms of stuff that we found out, it was all very kind of day-to-day rehearsal stuff that was just like we found very geekily interesting. I don't know if the whole world did, but we were like, You did what in rehearsal? And what all of these crazy stories that just kept coming that I think is what makes this story so appealing to people is that it's just this kind of mega mix of chaos.

You know, if one or two of these things had happened to a show, it would kind of be funny but forgotten about. Whereas this show just had everything hit it with full force. And I think that's what makes it so interesting to people. And I think that, like you say, part of the intrigue about it is that you go from people making out in their cars at the drive-in, and it's so silly and ridiculous, and with Don't Waste the Moon, yeah, to even in prayers. And it's a little schizophrenic. You're a little bit like what? It's not even that this is bad, or it's not even that it's so bad, it's good, it's that I don't know if it's bad or if it's good, because from one scene to the next, it kind of keeps changing.

[26:09] Chris Adams: Yeah, and that's what the cast always said. They were like, we were rehearsing two shows with two different visions, and they were kind of like smushed together at the end, and everyone had to hope for the best. And I think that's you know what the writers wanted to try and fix a bit when they rewrote the show in 2012. But yeah, it was yeah, two very different concepts, I think, trying to mesh together.

[26:25] David Rigano: Did you get to like what did you learn about the rewriting process and what they wanted to focus on when they were rewriting it?

[26:40] Chris Adams: Yeah, I mean, what the great thing about writing the book for me was being able to speak to the cast of the revival, which we spoke to a couple of them in the podcast, but I was able to speak to many more in the book. And again, it was interesting to speak to young actors who this was for many of them their first job in a story about young people, and trying to figure out how to maneuver and navigate around that reputation of the show being a disaster. And it sounded like a very open process. I mean, the writers had kind of battled with this idea of rewriting the show for a long time, and I think what they wanted was a version that would be timeless or as timeless as possible. So, you know, the 80s version of so just already, you know, within months probably sounded extremely dated and now sounds like it was written hundreds of years ago.

Whereas this one I think was designed to last for a lot longer, and they wanted a version that people could perform. They wanted a version that directors could put their own spin on, that young people in high schools and kind of community groups could, you know, make a kind of a version for themselves, I suppose, rather than this ultimate, not that I have helped this, but this ultimate version being the kind of the one that everybody remembers forever. So I think they were tackling this interesting challenge of doing a show that would be appealing to people then but would last for a long time as well. So yeah, it was really great to have that space to talk to them a bit more and delve into that new version more.

[28:18] Chris Adams: See, it's kind of the through line of the original to this is a show about bullying. And "Don't Waste the Moon," which was like it kind of sounds like what are the kids sound like these turns into the world according to Chris, which is a great villain song, and is a song about bullying. The title song "Carrie" started as "And someday I'll meet a boy and he'll like me," and now the new one is "Someday everyone will accept me and like me," which also makes the destruction from the boy betrayed me to everyone betrayed me.

[28:56] Chris Adams: And I think, you know, that the revival had kind of mixed reviews and reception. Some people really liked it, some people didn't. And a lot of the people who didn't like it didn't like it because it didn't have all of those classic elements in it. But I mean, some people did accuse it slightly of being a bit too earnest and a bit too serious. And I think there's something in there maybe that the writers were just nervous that they were gonna get laughed at again. You know, so they were used to being burnt and being the butt of the joke with some of those songs and scenes that had been mocked so much in the reviews of the original. So a lot of that kind of dark humor was stripped away. And Stephen King's books have a lot of dark humor in them, and that is part of the kind of world that he's created. So I think the De Palma movie is not free of camp.

[29:42] Chris Adams: No, it's very camp. Yeah, it's very silly. So yeah, it was an interesting experiment, but I think what came out of the revival, whether you like that production of it or not, is that it can be now reinterpreted in many different ways. I don't think you'd get away these days with, you know, the jumpsuits and the cardboard cars and things.

[30:05] Chris Adams: So talk to me about what the process of adapting the podcast for a book was, what the decision behind that was, what you decided to keep from the podcast, what stayed on the podcast, and what new information is in the book. I think because we were kind of panic releasing the podcast as we went along, we were kind of re-recording it and releasing it, recording, releasing it, and we were telling the story chronologically. We were being introduced to so many new people as we went along that we were sort of trying to shoehorn them in. And we did some bonus episodes, but there were just so many of them that we were just collecting up. And I thought, you know, we can't just ignore all of these amazing stories.

[30:46] Chris Adams: And of course, things like lockdown had eased off. I was able to visit archives at the RSC archive in Stratford, which has these amazing technical drawings of the show and all the original scores and notated stuff. So there was loads of stuff that I could go and look at. Obviously, as I say, being able to speak to more people in the revival and who've been involved in the show since. So there was just so much stuff. I approached Dom O'Hanlon, who's a commissioner at Methuen. If you know theatre books, you know Methuen Drama. There's loads of them. Look at half the spies down these aisles. Luckily, he had listened to the podcast and kind of also saw the value in this book as a kind of not just as a, we didn't want to kind of create this gossipy kind of fun, you know, picture book of the show.

We wanted to kind of tell a bit of the wider cultural story of the show, you know, what was going on in the British theatre industry at the time that made people think this was a good idea to create and what was happening here on Broadway that made it collapse so spectacularly. We wanted to kind of look at that wider scene a bit.

[31:33] Chris Adams: And yeah, and so we set about doing it and here it is. So, you know, some of the stuff in the podcast is only in the podcast, some of it is in the book, but there's a lot more in the book I think that kind of expands the world of the podcast and tells a story a bit more broadly.

[31:33] Chris Adams: And then you won an award.

[32:09] Jak Malone: I did, thanks for saying. Oh god, a pretty big British theater award, kind of crazy because I, this, it was the Society of Theatre Research, which sounds very fancy. I was like, this book really? That's almost as crazy as "Carrie" going to the Royal Shakespeare.

[32:09] Chris Adams: Yeah, exactly.

[32:27] Jak Malone: And there was a long list of about 20 books and I thought, wow, that's really cool. And then it got down to a shortlist of five, I think like Judi Dench and stuff was on this list. And we were, my husband and I went on holiday to Canada because I was like, I'm not gonna win this. And I woke up and people started messaging me that the book had won. So it was, yeah, it was crazy, but I'm kind of, I'm very proud of it because I'm not an academic writer, I'm not a famous person re-releasing books. I think it's the story that people loved, you know, people really kind of enjoyed reading the story and they see a lot of it in, you know, people have found interest not only in the kind of fun gossipy side of it but in the way a show, the kind of real grit of how a show is made and that process and the kind of trials and tribulations.

[33:20] Chris Adams: So I think, yeah, I'm pleased because of that. I think it's sort of the story is now in a book and it's there forever. So I'm kind of pleased that that's happened.

[33:29] Jak Malone: And I think obviously there are so many of us who know the lore, but never had the firsthand. We know the bootlegs and we know the differences from Stratford to Broadway, from the original workshop to Stratford to Broadway. But we want to hear the information that you amassed, and not just us, not just us little theater nerds, like in our college dorm rooms like I was back in two, or sitting in the York Theater basement. But like some big, some famous people are closet "Carrie" fans or not so closet "Carrie" fans.

[34:11] Chris Adams: They are. I mean, we were amazed. First of all, we thought like 10 people would listen to this podcast. So, and we thought that would be us five times each, basically. So, but loads of people were like, I love "Carrie," and we were just talking earlier in the green room. You know, we all have similar stories about how we came to find the show through various weird means of getting hold of tapes and stuff. And one thing that really kind of we loved was that as shows reopened, casts were listening to the podcast in their dressing rooms in the West End and on Broadway and talking about the show and messaging us and stuff, and we were like, really, that's so cool.

[34:47] Jak Malone: So yeah, that's how our first guest came to my attention.

[34:51] Chris Adams: So maybe we should bring him on.

[34:53] Jak Malone: Yeah, let's bring him in.

[34:54] Chris Adams: Yeah, so I want to introduce the wonderful Jak Malone, who is in "Operation Mincemeat."

[34:54] Jak Malone: Hello!

[34:54] Chris Adams: Hi!

[35:05] Jak Malone: Yeah, I basically just harassed Jack until he came to start.

[35:10] Chris Adams: I was delighted, absolutely delighted to be here to talk about the sort of mashup of some of my favorite things, which is horror and musical theatre, which is what "Carrie" very much represented for me.

[35:20] Jak Malone: So yeah.

[35:22] Chris Adams: So Jak, first congrats on all of the acclaim on "Operation Mincemeat." Certainly the awards for you personally, but your whole crew over there is just putting on an amazing show. How are things over at the Golden?

[35:40] Jak Malone: Wonderful. Great show's going really well. I've been off all week with strep, but I feel better now, so I'm here. But yeah, things are going really well. It's been so great to be involved with the show since its inception in 2019, and then make it to the West End and listen to "Out for Blood" and hear exactly how things could have gone if the pendulum had swung the other way.

[36:09] Chris Adams: You're kind of doing that kind of show that you're like people could take this the way we intend it, or it could go and people obviously took it very, very well.

[36:19] Jak Malone: Yeah, thankfully.

[36:20] Chris Adams: I'm thrilled that you're better so that you can be with us, and I'm so appreciative to your understudy.

[36:25] Jak Malone: Oh, sure. Me too.

[36:28] Chris Adams: Can you talk to us about your history with the show and maybe any favorite "Carrie" legends?

[36:36] Jak Malone: Sure. So I discovered that the musical, I remember I was only thinking about this this morning. I watched the 70s Brian De Palma movie on DVD, and I watched the DVD extras. I miss DVD extras, guys. Missed that. That was good stuff. There was a whole little documentary about the musical on the DVD, and it was great, it was so informative, so interesting. They had Betty Buckley talk about it because obviously she was in the film and in the musical. So I was like, oh, I absolutely have to seek this out. I need to know everything that I can about this.

[37:13] Jak Malone: And yeah, back then it was scrounging around for little tidbits of information. I was thinking to myself, did I look on Reddit? And I was like, no, I don't even think Reddit had found the show then. I don't remember where I found a lot of the stuff I found, but I do recall finding the bootleg of the soundboard recording from the Broadway production on Pirate Bay. I don't know if anyone remembers Merrima's Pirate Bay, which was for torrent downloading. That website is now illegal. But that's where I found the soundboard recording, and I was able to listen to all the music, and Betty Buckley completely stole my heart. And yeah, as a big Stephen King fan, as a big fan of the film, just as a horror fan in general, I was like, oh wow, they're doing it, they're marrying my favorite things to my ears, successfully.

[38:02] Jak Malone: It wasn't until later when I saw pictures of the show. I was like, oh, what were they doing? It's baffling. One of my sort of one of my favorite "Carrie" legends is just the fact of the visceral reaction from the audience, the transition from booing to rapturous applause in such quick succession. There's this story that Betty Buckley tells on the DVD documentary that I saw where she stood with Lindsay Hatley on opening night. She's just, Carrie's just killed Margaret, and the show's finished. The curtain comes down, and the audience boo really loud, like really enthusiastic boo. When Lindsay Hatley turns to Betty Buckley and says, what do we do? And she says, we just, we gotta go out there. The curtain comes up for them to do their bow.

[38:06] Chris Adams: Yeah!

[38:56] Jak Malone: Rapturous applause. And I'm like, as an actor, I don't know if I would ever recover. I don't know if I would ever trust this audience again.

[39:09] Chris Adams: Well, you just have to think that that audience was like, we know it's not you. You did good, you did your best.

[39:17] Jak Malone: Yeah, I don't know, but I love that. I think that's, I've never been in a show like that ever. And but you do have a fascination with the macabre. Do you know where that came from? Your personal fascination with all things macabre and that kind of cross-section of horror and theater?

[39:39] Jak Malone: Yeah, I was, as a child, I was just sort of allowed to enjoy that stuff. That stuff was never really off limits to me. I didn't, I just didn't go for the typical things, and I was always very sad as a child because there was, I used to say there was nothing for me. I'd go to an event and somebody would be there dressed as the Teletubbies, and I'd be like, sure, but where's, I'm trying to think of where's Beetlejuice? Like that's who I want to see. So yeah, I've always had this lifelong fascination. And the same as you read in Stephen King books as a teenager, the first Stephen King book I read was "Carrie." And it's often when I meet people that I tell them that I love Stephen King, and they might say, oh, I've never read a Stephen King.

I say, start with "Carrie," it's short, it's so palatable. The way in which it's written, it's really engrossing. So yeah, I've just carried that through life and I still have that today. I'm obsessed. I don't engage with anything really unless it has its roots in horror, much to the disappointment of my girlfriend who sometimes wants to watch a rom-com. And I'm like, sure, but is there a zombie in it?

[40:50] Chris Adams: I call "Carrie" a rom-com.

[40:52] Jak Malone: Yeah, me too. Apparently, Piper Laurie maintained for her entire career that the movie of "Carrie" was a comedy and she played it as such.

[41:02] Chris Adams: I believe it.

[41:04] Jak Malone: Do you bring that to your work, or I guess do you seek out work that allows you the opportunity to bring that sensibility?

[41:16] Jak Malone: I'm trying more to make that a thing. I do a lot of writing. It's crazy because I've written all my life, I've written and written and written, and nothing ever gets done. But now I'm kind of in a position where people are interested in that, and I feel like I'm gonna leave "Operation Mincemeat," and all of a sudden everyone's gonna go, oh my, oh, this guy just is just this horror guy. I don't know about, I don't, a lot of people don't know it about me because yeah, I'm just constantly writing, figuring out ways to marry the two. I think horror theatre is hard. I think horror requires a suspension of disbelief, and theatre requires a suspension of disbelief, and you just, and then if you get it to a musical, even further, and I think you're asking a lot of the audience, but I'm determined that there's someone who can crack it. I don't know if it's me, and I don't know what the answer is, but somebody has got to make the great magnum opus horror musical.

[42:15] Chris Adams: I'm very excited for "The Lost Boys" when that eventually happens. I'm excited to see what they do. I'm just, yeah, marry my two passions.

[42:24] Jak Malone: Give me horror theatre all the time because, yeah, I didn't think most recent play that I wrote is my first attempt at a thriller. And even when I was doing little readings with people, people would sort of suggest, should it be supernatural? And I would say I can't. I can't go there. Like, it's like for my first attempt at this, I can't try to do some kind of supernatural horror and ask the audience to go along with. I also think sometimes if it's possible, it's scarier. Whether I succeeded in this play, time will tell. But I don't know. We'll see. But yeah, I agree with you. It's a really difficult thing to get right. At least to get right and not have the audience boo, you know, until they start cheering you.

[43:11] Chris Adams: Yeah. Unless it's like, and unless it's a wink-wink. Like I've seen Evil Dead, the Musical, Reanimated the Musical. Those are both musicals with a splatter zone. The first three rows, they give you a poncho. Great, because that's a good time. And there is horror and there is gore and it's good fun. I'm determined. I've said this to you on Instagram, haven't I? I'm determined to direct a production of Carrie that is full 70s camp diploma. Big, big hair, technicolor, like, yeah. I really would love to see that happen. I think I'll be there opening night.

[43:45] Jak Malone: Sure. Yeah, I think it deserves that. I agree. I was listening to what you guys said about the revival, and I think they did tilt too far into what if we made it gritty? I'm like, no, I don't think that's not what I want from Carrie. Mike Flanagan is currently adapting Carrie for a TV series. Yeah. And I trust, I would trust Mike Flanagan with my life story. He's terrific. He's brilliant. So I'm excited to see what he does with that. But I hope it's a bit campy, yes.

[44:14] David Rigano: Well, speaking of people who make camp horror sci-fi theater, why don't we bring out the wonderful Joe Iconis? He's here with us.

[44:23] Joe Iconis: Yeah, as well.

[44:33] David Rigano: So hello, Joe.

[44:34] Joe Iconis: Hey, welcome back to the show.

[44:36] David Rigano: Thank you so much. So what I'm going through these questions in my... now, yeah, you are known for some songs that sometimes go to some dark places, some maybe campy places.

[44:53] Joe Iconis: Yeah. And I think that I've seen some sci-fi in your oeuvre.

[45:00] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah. Do you think that there was like, what's your history with Carrie and does that work its way to something like Be More Chill? Yeah, I mean, yes is the easy answer. As far as how the sort of like Carrie vibes, you know, informed me and found their way into my work, to me it always felt very natural to write musical theater that intersected with genre stuff. You know, to me, because musical theater is inherently a heightened, non-realistic art form, it makes sense to have elements of sci-fi and horror, and those things feel very at home in musicals to me. And certainly because I was exposed to Carrie at such a young age and other musicals in that world, like Little Shop of Horrors and Sweeney Todd, and shows like that, it always just felt like the most natural thing in the world.

And still, I just have a thing in me where it's even as Chris was talking about all of these things that made Carrie initially this wild musical, this musical where it's like, oh, can you believe how crazy and insane this is? I'm listening back there, and I'm just like, that doesn't even sound crazy to me. Like, it just doesn't. It's sort of like, that's no crazier than like Hades Town or anything else. You know, it's like all of these musicals that we just say, oh yes, of course. It's like there's insane elements in that, you know. And so to me, it's just a lot of times that like some of the worst ideas make the best musicals, and some of the best ideas, if it seems too obvious to be a musical, it's gonna be a cheesy cliché musical. If you're like, so this guy murders people and his neighbor makes them into pies and they're gonna sing about it, it can be the masterpiece of musical theater.

[46:53] Jak Malone: Yeah.

[46:54] Joe Iconis: So that's that part of it. As far as how I was introduced to Carrie, I came to it through Ken Mandelbaum's Not Since Carrie book. I was a kid, I was in Barnes and Noble. I saw the cover of it. The cover of that book had a photo of Lindsay Hatley covered in blood, looking at the camera and just smiling. And it was for, it was like an outtake from a promo shoot, I think. And I was so intrigued, like an 11-year-old seeing that, just like, what is that? You know, and I was like, is that, is she covered in blood, that woman? You know, and so I started reading that book, and I just became obsessed with this musical, this idea of this musical. And you know, the way it sort of encountered the internet was like, I feel like I discovered it right before the internet.

And so I feel like my earliest interactions with Carrie was like literally going to the library and like finding reviews on like microfiche. You know, I feel like I was literally like an 11-year-old researching Carrie the musical at my local library. And then when the internet, you know, happened, I really feel like my first impulse was like, oh, I bet you could find some Carrie stuff on here. Like, you could really like, you can get some good shit going. And I was huge in the bootleg world, in early internet, huge in the bootleg. I was on the shoot, I was really huge in the bootleg world. But I, you know, I was trading bootlegs and buying bootlegs, doing all that shit, and then the holy grail was like a Carrie audio cassette or anything from Carrie. And I finally found one when I was in middle school, and I paid for it. I put cash in the mail and I sent it to some presumably adult man here in the city. And I got, I got the...

[48:34] Joe Iconis: Did your mother know?

[48:40] Joe Iconis: My mother did not know. No, and I always, I was like, I was such a good kid. I'm from Ohio, I was like a very sheltered kid. I was just like, I never did anything wrong, and I always love the like, you know, other kids were like, you know, stealing money for drugs, and they were, you know, they were sneaking away to go to like, you know, bars at night, and I was like, you know, like sneaking away. So yeah, it's a mail cash to some guy in the city, so I can get a Carrie bootleg. But I did, and just getting that bootleg, I always think about this. It's getting the first time I just held it in my hand and I knew all I'm about to hear Carrie. I'm gonna have to hear this musical that I've been obsessed with for years for the first time.

It was like a pure joy that has, it's probably the single most joyful moment I've ever felt in my entire life. And I can't imagine anything ever topping it ever. I recently had a child, you're an hour. The thing that makes the Carrie moment different is just that it was just pure joy. You know, it wasn't like, oh, I'm nervous and oh, this is, you know, my wife's there. Yeah, this was just pure absolute like nothing but, you know, sparkles and fireworks joy that I felt.

[50:00] Jak Malone: I don't think we have time to go into why you named your daughter after a different musical theater murderer.

[50:05] Joe Iconis: So my name of my daughter's Roxy.

[50:08] Jak Malone: Yeah, she gets away with it at the end.

[50:11] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah.

[50:13] Joe Iconis: I think I had, I kind of had the reverse. I think that I like found someone who had the audio and they burned it onto a CD for me. And then when I found Not Since Carrie, it was the first time I could look at like really good quality photos of what it looked like. And so that's when I was like, oh, I can put two things together from my understanding. Now, as you mentioned, this is considered up until Spider-Man, which, if you want Song of Spider-Man, we have that here. If you like books on major flops, you gotta grab this one too. But up until that point, it was considered the biggest flop in Broadway history. What do all assembled feel about that kind of moniker? And do you think its legacy is that of a flop?

[51:21] Chris Adams: It's a controversial word. Because if you judge it by money alone, then obviously it's a flop. But if you judge it artistically, if we're still here in this bookshelf talking about it all these years later, can you really call it a flop?

[51:38] Jak Malone: Right.

[51:41] Chris Adams: Yeah, I hate, I hate the F word. Yeah, it's my least favorite. I find it very offensive. But I, you know, I think that that's exactly it. You know, we're talking about it and we're talking about it not to make fun of it. Like I think it's great. You know, obviously there are things about Carrie the Musical that are, you know, really out there and it's inconsistent in tone in a lot of ways, but like, so what? Why does something have to be consistent in tone? And there are such moments of exciting greatness in that musical. And it's like, what are the other think of all of the musicals that have opened and closed and lost millions of dollars or made millions of dollars since 1988? And how many of those are people you know talking about in the town of Manhattan on a Thursday night, you know?

And I do think that had they not fixed the show, I say fixed because we there are various opinions about the rewrite, but I think that had they not fixed the show and had it not become a popular licensable show that everyone could do, we would still be talking about it anyway. We'd still be talking about the original anyway. For my money, Carrie was a book I knew well and a film I knew well, and they set out to make a musical of that story. And I, as someone who had a lot of love for that story, watched it and went, yeah, great. You did that. You did it. You hit all the beats. I love that the songs are quite beautiful and very catchy and everything you need them to be. So sure. It's all relative, isn't it?

For the viewer to be like for me, I'm like, yeah, you made a musical of Carrie. That's what I wanted you to do. I didn't want you to make Fame. I had no stake in that. I wanted you to make Carrie, and you did, so thank you.

[53:22] Jak Malone: So what were your bootleg journeys with it? Because obviously there is the infamous Broadway soundboard, which is very good quality audio of, is it closing night on Broadway, actually?

[53:39] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I think so. And but then there is a video, thank you, thank you, Ryan, for that. There is the video of Stratford with Barbara Cook. There is the audio of the original workshop with Annie Golden, and Liz Callaway, who will be here in a couple of weeks, just in case you want to come back. So what, like once you were in that bootleg world, what was your journey with the Carrie bootlegs?

[54:12] Joe Iconis: My journey was I got the audio cassette first, and then I didn't know there was any filmed footage of it, you know. And so I then found out that there was a video that had been compiled over the years of B-roll of home video footage from the Stratford rehearsals. It was all like super grainy, you know, copied a million times. So I got my hands on that, and then eventually I found the Broadway Act One videos, yes, which was another like greatest moments of my life situation. And again, I put cash in the mail, and I got this video back, and it's only of act one of the Broadway closing again, I believe, right? And yeah, and it was amazing.

[54:58] Joe Iconis: And that, should I tell the story about the BB? I mean, this said shivers down our spot as a story. I had this video that was at the time, like it was a pretty hot video on the bootleg circuit. And so I was like, oh, I can get great, great stuff with the Carrie act one, you know. And so I was trading it like crazy. I was getting like chess OBC, Kiss of the Spider Woman OBC, like all of the like, you know, the good good stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[55:16] Joe Iconis: And so I was getting good stuff, you know, trading the Carrie bootleg. And at the time, I was really like, well, I'm just gonna like, I'll hang out. I'm gonna, I'm not hiding that I have a Carrie bootleg. I was going on message boards because there was like a covert sort of thing happening, but I was like, I'm just letting everybody know. I got this Carrie bootleg, and I want what you got, and you want what I got, and let's figure it out. And so, and I like I literally was like 14 or something, right? Like 30 more day. And I was at home one day on Long Island, and the phone rang, and I picked it up, and the person said, hi, is Joseph Iconis there? And I was like, yeah, this is he. And the guy said, um, hi, my name is whatever, I'm the attorney of Betty Buckley, and we've been made aware that you have an illegal video recording of Carrie, and you've been selling it online, and so I'm going to need you to send me all of the copies of that video, or we will be pressing charges.

[56:31] Chris Adams: And so I was like, okay, I will do that.

[56:35] Chris Adams: And so I um I made a copy of the video and I sent him a copy and I kept my own.

[56:41] Chris Adams: And I continued to trade it.

[56:45] Chris Adams: Uh and uh I was just I was smarter about it.

[56:48] Chris Adams: But I really do think that if like if my mother would have picked up the phone instead of me, that could have changed the course of my life.

[56:56] Chris Adams: Like it really could have, you know, it was like that's the moment, that's my life-changing moment where I got that phone call.

[57:02] Jak Malone: She's a point to there when you were like, if I write her a song, will she get it?

[57:07] Chris Adams: It's in the future.

[57:08] Jak Malone: Yeah.

[57:08] Chris Adams: Uh no, I was nothing but terrified.

[57:10] Jak Malone: Yeah.

[57:11] Chris Adams: Terrified of it.

[57:12] Chris Adams: And then, and so now subsequently I've I've I've worked with with Betty Buckley, and I I know her like, you know, as well as uh as well as anyone can know anyone.

[57:20] Chris Adams: You know, like I know Betty Buckley, and like, and uh she's hanging out with my family, and like, and um, and I still have never told her that story.

[57:28] Chris Adams: Because I never have, but I've talked about it, now I'm getting like Lucy Goosey about talking about it.

[57:34] Chris Adams: If she listens to the Broadway podcast network, um please tell us.

[57:40] Chris Adams: I just can't do it because I so feel like and she's a really cool, you know, she's a cool person, but there's part of me that really feels like I'll tell her that and her face will drop, and she'll just feel like you'll you'll be hearing from me right now.

[57:52] Jak Malone: Yeah, it's I remember, yeah.

[57:53] Chris Adams: Yeah, and I don't want her to think of me as some filthy little bootlegger.

[57:59] Jak Malone: She's moved on.

[58:00] Chris Adams: I think she's moved on.

[58:02] Jak Malone: Yes.

[58:03] Chris Adams: For you two, what were the other interactions with bootlegs that you had over the so for me it was the it was the soundboard recording?

[58:11] Jak Malone: Um, and I had that on an MP3 player that only could hold like 30 songs.

[58:16] Jak Malone: So I if ever I wanted fancy to listening to Carrie, I'd have to delete everything.

[58:23] Jak Malone: Um and then yeah, I I remember trying to watch the um I don't know which one it was.

[58:29] Jak Malone: There was one I watched, and it was so far away.

[58:31] Chris Adams: That's the Stratford one.

[58:33] Jak Malone: Not that I'm that familiar with the carrying bootlegs.

[58:36] Jak Malone: But I thought no Stratford I can't watch that, that's too far away.

[58:39] Jak Malone: And it wasn't until I sort of sort of got mature enough to go, no, I'm committed.

[58:44] Jak Malone: Yeah, I'm committed, I want to watch it.

[58:46] Jak Malone: But I but I have a bootleg of the uh of the London playhouse production that starred my friend Evelyn Hoskins, which I couldn't resist.

[58:55] Jak Malone: I was like, Oh, I saw it uh on Reddit, and I was like, I'm taking that.

[58:58] Jak Malone: I'm absolutely taking that.

[58:59] Jak Malone: And she's terrific.

[59:00] Jak Malone: She's she's so stunning.

[59:01] Chris Adams: It was great.

[59:02] Jak Malone: Yeah, you saw you what you were there, weren't you?

[59:03] Chris Adams: Yeah, it was a great show.

[59:05] Jak Malone: Yeah, and for all assembled, what did you think the first time you saw the giant staircase descend?

[59:12] Chris Adams: What now?

[59:14] Jak Malone: What now?

[59:15] Chris Adams: What's this?

[59:16] Jak Malone: Where's that been?

[59:18] Chris Adams: Yes, where is truly I can only imagine that there are a bunch of lighting instruments on the underside of it that were lighting the entire show while that was up in the rafters.

[59:29] Chris Adams: One of the great things about writing this book was that someone had a load of photos from the tech with that staircase.

[59:35] Chris Adams: It's just got Barbara Cook just reclined on the in a break in rehearsal.

[59:39] Jak Malone: I love if you haven't watched Barbara Cook die in that production, you must if you've I and and we all again we're not making fun of anything.

[59:51] Chris Adams: We adore this show and we adore these people.

[59:53] Chris Adams: Uh if you have never seen someone so over being in a production the way that Barbara Cook dies in this production, it is Chef's Kiss.

[1:00:02] David Rigano: Um I guess one of the last questions is what's next for out for black.

[1:00:08] Chris Adams: Oh, unless you're gonna move on to other things, but is there is there more in store for the podcast?

[1:00:14] Chris Adams: Is we've kind of we did about nine bonus episodes, but I think we'll keep you know, if something big happens in the Carrie universe, we'll be back to cover it.

[1:00:22] Chris Adams: So we need someone to do a big production of it so we can do more.

[1:00:25] Chris Adams: Um and we've talked and talked about what we can do next, and there is just no show that is you know as as amazing to talk about as this one because that the history of it is just so perfect.

[1:00:36] Chris Adams: It's just this amazing uh web of of chaos, and you know, um, as we've talked about, Spider-Man has a book, which is great.

[1:00:44] Chris Adams: Um, you know, there are other podcasts all about flops that cover the the others.

[1:00:48] Chris Adams: Um so we just can't figure out what to do.

[1:00:50] Chris Adams: If anyone's got any ideas, please tell us.

[1:00:52] Chris Adams: Um I noticed when it comes to the F-word, I love the F-word.

[1:00:58] Chris Adams: Not because, but only because I I'm similarly obsessed as our friend Jen Tepper was with Not Since Carrie, and uh and I wanted to look into why shows didn't work and why good ideas didn't work, or couldn't find an audience, or why a good idea turned into maybe a not great execution.

[1:01:22] Chris Adams: Like, I'm so fascinated by all of that, which was my entree into Carrie in the first place.

[1:01:29] Chris Adams: I usually do these kind of audience polls at the beginning of an evening.

[1:01:33] Chris Adams: I'm saving it for the end this time.

[1:01:35] Chris Adams: Who here has listened to or seen any of the bootlegs of the original Carrie?

[1:01:45] Chris Adams: Who here has seen the Off-Broadway revival or any production of the rewritten version?

[1:01:54] Chris Adams: At all.

[1:01:59] Chris Adams: Because I I think again, something fascinates us about what was good about the rewrite, and maybe what we miss about something, even that was derided in the original.

[1:02:14] Chris Adams: And I believe, Joe, you're going to send us off sharing a little bit of what that original was like.

[1:02:23] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah, I sure, I sure am.

[1:02:26] Joe Iconis: Yeah.

[1:02:26] Joe Iconis: So I uh I thought it might be cool to share a song from Carrie uh tonight.

[1:02:33] Joe Iconis: And so uh what you're gonna hear is um this is my uh it's a moment that I love from the show.

[1:02:39] Joe Iconis: It's the opening of Act Two, which is uh the moment where the villains of the show, um, the teenage villains of the show go and they collect uh pig's blood from a pig.

[1:02:51] Joe Iconis: They do this by murdering a pig.

[1:02:53] Joe Iconis: Uh and um the it's like a notorious number.

[1:02:56] Joe Iconis: We all know about it, right?

[1:02:57] Joe Iconis: So, like, so the initial um London version is the title of the book.

[1:03:02] Chris Adams: It is, yes, yes.

[1:03:03] Joe Iconis: Very much.

[1:03:03] Joe Iconis: Out for bloody.

[1:03:04] Joe Iconis: Yes, yes, CCS.

[1:03:05] Joe Iconis: Um, the initial version in London is called Cracker Jack, right?

[1:03:09] Joe Iconis: And it's um for those who don't know, it's the same idea.

[1:03:12] Joe Iconis: It's like, you know, Chris and Billy are murdering the pigs.

[1:03:15] Joe Iconis: But the song itself used the metaphor of a box of cracker jacks, where it's like you never know what you're gonna find when you open up a box of cracker jacks.

[1:03:23] Joe Iconis: You never know what's gonna happen when you, you know, kill a pig.

[1:03:27] Chris Adams: Just to note, cracker jacks do not exist in the U.S.

[1:03:29] Joe Iconis: No, we don't talk about that.

[1:03:31] Chris Adams: So the audience sounds like, what the hell?

[1:03:34] Joe Iconis: Yeah.

[1:03:38] Joe Iconis: But there was a big, that was another thing that affected it.

[1:03:40] Joe Iconis: It was such a cultural difference between American high school and British high school for that initial production.

[1:03:46] Chris Adams: Yeah, and it's like so wild that the song the song was Cracker Jack in London, but then they changed it for New York, where we know a cracker jack.

[1:03:52] Joe Iconis: Yeah, amazing, incredible.

[1:03:54] Joe Iconis: Um so then in in New York, same sort of setup, same kind of music and vibe, they just rewrote the lyrics, and now it was called Out for Blood.

[1:04:01] Joe Iconis: And so uh I'm gonna do a mashup of the two versions of uh those songs.

[1:04:08] Joe Iconis: Uh, because I think it's just badass.

[1:04:10] Joe Iconis: You know, I hope that you listen to it, and obviously it's a ridiculous situation, but I think if the goal is to write like a kick-ass rock number about a whole bunch of uh sexy teens killing pigs, like you could not possibly do a better one.

[1:04:26] Joe Iconis: And so um, because it's uh it's a proper duet, I actually asked a couple friends to join me.

[1:04:30] Joe Iconis: Uh and so here to sing the roles of uh Chris and Billy are uh Amira Joy Lomax and Jared Weiss.

[1:04:48] Joe Iconis: Oh yeah.

[1:04:49] Joe Iconis: Hey guys.

[1:04:56] Joe Iconis: You ready?

[1:05:09] Joe Iconis: I believe in getting even.

[1:05:12] Amira Joy Lomax: That's what I believe.

[1:05:15] Joe Iconis: But I just don't forgive and forget.

[1:05:21] Amira Joy Lomax: I don't take no attitude when I know I've been screwed.

[1:05:27] Joe Iconis: Here we've got a lot to regret.

[1:05:34] Amira Joy Lomax: Shit.

[1:05:36] Joe Iconis: Look at all these things.

[1:05:40] Amira Joy Lomax: Revenge requires planning.

[1:05:43] Joe Iconis: I've done all I can.

[1:05:45] Amira Joy Lomax: Now it's your chance to prove your stuff.

[1:05:52] Joe Iconis: It's a simple little gig.

[1:05:55] Amira Joy Lomax: You help me kill a pig.

[1:05:57] Joe Iconis: And then I got some plants for the blood.

[1:06:06] Amira Joy Lomax: Kill the pig, pig, pig, kill, kill, kill, kill, and make a bleed.

[1:06:10] Joe Iconis: Get the blood, blood, blood, ooh, blood.

[1:06:13] Amira Joy Lomax: Kill the pig, make him bleed.

[1:06:15] Joe Iconis: Get the blood, that's all we need.

[1:06:17] Amira Joy Lomax: Out for blood.

[1:06:19] Joe Iconis: Oh yeah.

[1:06:22] Amira Joy Lomax: That's all we need.

[1:06:23] Joe Iconis: Out for blood.

[1:06:26] Amira Joy Lomax: Now do I want to I want to I get?

[1:06:35] Joe Iconis: Too damn long I'll let you push me a walk.

[1:06:38] Amira Joy Lomax: On what I can offer now, you're gonna have to crawl.

[1:06:42] Joe Iconis: This is my way, when I say you got your legs, what about the unexpected?

[1:06:48] Amira Joy Lomax: You never know what you're gonna find when you look into the dark and dirty corners of your mind.

[1:06:53] Joe Iconis: You like what you see?

[1:06:56] Amira Joy Lomax: The way you headed now, it's easy to tell.

[1:06:59] Joe Iconis: You both dream and hell.

[1:07:01] Amira Joy Lomax: Stream to hell, kill the paint out, kill a paint belly, kill a pay cow.

[1:07:09] Joe Iconis: There's a storm inside my brain, a raging perfect case.

[1:07:15] Amira Joy Lomax: But I bet you can hang on the fun.

[1:07:21] Joe Iconis: You know me, there's a hell to pay if I don't get my way.

[1:07:27] Amira Joy Lomax: And I'm not out for kids.

[1:07:30] Joe Iconis: Come on, buddy.

[1:07:45] Amira Joy Lomax: That's all we need.

[1:07:46] Joe Iconis: Out for blood.

[1:07:49] Amira Joy Lomax: Kill a pain, make a bleed, get the blood, that's all we need.

[1:07:52] Joe Iconis: Out for blood for me.

[1:08:25] Amira Joy Lomax: You never know what your nickel buys when you grab a box of cracker jacks and open up the prizes that what you thought.

[1:08:32] Amira Joy Lomax: Ha I bet none.

[1:08:34] Joe Iconis: Remember, go too far, there's no turning back.

[1:08:37] Amira Joy Lomax: Remember Cracker Jack.

[1:08:39] Joe Iconis: Cracker Jack.

[1:08:41] Amira Joy Lomax: You never know what your nickel buys when you grab a box of cracker jacks.

[1:08:46] Joe Iconis: Holding up the prizes that would you buy.

[1:08:49] Amira Joy Lomax: Ha, I bet not.

[1:08:51] Joe Iconis: Remember, go too far, there's no turning back.

[1:08:54] Amira Joy Lomax: Never cracker jack.

[1:08:58] Joe Iconis: Don't check on his kicker.

[1:09:10] Amira Joy Lomax: Out of the mud.

[1:09:12] Joe Iconis: Yeah, kill the pig, make a clean, get the blood, that's all we need.

[1:09:16] Amira Joy Lomax: Out the blood.

[1:09:18] Joe Iconis: Yeah, kill the pig, make a bleed, get the blood, that's all we need.

[1:09:22] Amira Joy Lomax: Out the blood.

[1:09:45] David Rigano: So thank you all so much.

[1:09:49] David Rigano: You have to learn that Joe Iconis does not do anything basic or simple.

[1:09:55] David Rigano: Thank you all once again so much for coming.

[1:09:57] David Rigano: Uh tonight.

[1:09:59] David Rigano: Uh, once again, please follow the Drama Book Show wherever you get your podcast.

[1:10:02] David Rigano: Please follow @dramabookshowpodcast on Instagram.

[1:10:05] David Rigano: Please subscribe to the Drama Bookshop on Eventbrite so that we can see all of your smiling faces.

[1:10:09] David Rigano: Um again, if you want to talk about more uh infamous F words.

[1:10:13] David Rigano: Uh we got we got we got Liz Callaway coming in a couple weeks to talk uh about Marilee Rowlong and other things.

[1:10:19] David Rigano: Um and uh once again, thank you so much to Chris Adams for asking and Dolai Province for being here with us tonight.