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[0:01] Christine Toy Johnson: Welcome back to TALKBACK, the Dramatists Guild's conversation about the theatre world we see and the one we want to see.

[0:08] Christine Toy Johnson: I'm your host, Christine Toy-Johnson.

[0:11] Christine Toy Johnson: Stories that centre people with disabilities, portrayed by actors with disabilities, have largely been missing from our stages.

[0:19] Christine Toy Johnson: They are rarely, if ever, produced.

[0:22] Christine Toy Johnson: This is why it was such a treat to get to talk with Gregg Mozgala and Katy Sullivan.

[0:27] Christine Toy Johnson: They are the award-winning actors and advocates for inclusion from the cast of Martina Majok's Pulitzer Prize-winning play, Cost of Living.

[0:36] Christine Toy Johnson: On today's episode of TALKBACK, we're speaking about their work in that play, their own advocacy, and what meaningful access in the theatre means to them.

[0:45] Christine Toy Johnson: Here's our conversation.

[0:48] Christine Toy Johnson: Welcome, Gregg and Katy.

[0:50] Christine Toy Johnson: Can you please introduce yourselves to our listeners?

[0:54] Gregg Mozgala: Hi, my name is Gregg Mozgala.

[0:58] Gregg Mozgala: I'm a cisgender white male.

[1:01] Gregg Mozgala: As Christine said, I'm an actor.

[1:03] Gregg Mozgala: I'm also the Artistic Director of a theatre company called the Apatite, and I'm currently the Director of Inclusion at Queens Theatre.

[1:11] Christine Toy Johnson: Thank you, Gregg.

[1:12] Katy Sullivan: I'm Katy Sullivan.

[1:15] Katy Sullivan: I am a bilateral above-the-knee amputee from birth.

[1:20] Katy Sullivan: I have gone down routes of being an actor, being a director, producing, but then also I'm randomly a Paralympic athlete as well.

[1:32] Katy Sullivan: I trained and got involved with U.S. Paralympics and ended up representing the United States at the 2012 Paralympic Games in the 100 meters on the track.

[1:44] Christine Toy Johnson: So I wanted to start with talking to you both about how long you have been involved with Cost of Living.

[1:51] Christine Toy Johnson: It was presented in 2014 as part of Ensemble Studio Theatre's monthly Youngblood brunches, and that was my first exposure to the play in that form.

[2:06] Christine Toy Johnson: But I had actually met Martina a couple years earlier through a mutual friend.

[2:11] Christine Toy Johnson: And so when that play came up and they were looking at casting, it just turned into this thing of, like, Martina was like, I need an actor with CP.

[2:19] Christine Toy Johnson: And Graham Gillis and R.J. Tolan at EST were like, well, we know Gregg Mozgala.

[2:24] Christine Toy Johnson: Martina was like, we know Gregg Mozgala.

[2:26] Christine Toy Johnson: And that's how it happened.

[2:28] Gregg Mozgala: So the one act.

[2:30] Gregg Mozgala: Well, I've been with it since then through its subsequent productions at Williamstown and Manhattan Theatre Club.

[2:37] Christine Toy Johnson: And what did you think of the play when you first read it?

[2:39] Gregg Mozgala: I thought it was awesome, quite simply.

[2:42] Gregg Mozgala: You know, it's very rare that there are plays that feature disabled actors that demand the casting of disabled actors.

[2:51] Gregg Mozgala: And I just thought it was a really wonderful human story.

[2:55] Gregg Mozgala: I was also very interested in, you know, the dynamic of their relationship and the fact that the show was very physically intimate without sex.

[3:07] Gregg Mozgala: If you're not familiar with the show, there's a lot of, you know, John has to be bathed and showered.

[3:12] Gregg Mozgala: And that was one thing that we presented in that first iteration.

[3:16] Gregg Mozgala: And I was just really excited about that.

[3:18] Gregg Mozgala: I'm just really interested in if our currency is the body, you know, particularly with myself having CP and having a physical disability, you know, like the depiction of an authentic disabled body on stage in all its various forms was really, really appealing to me.

[3:38] Gregg Mozgala: It's Martina. It's great writing.

[3:40] Gregg Mozgala: The cast was great. It was just a really wonderful thing.

[3:43] Gregg Mozgala: And I don't think anything quite like that had been on the stage at EST before.

[3:50] Katy Sullivan: So I got brought in to the whole picture a little bit later than Greg.

[4:00] Katy Sullivan: It was at the point where they were looking to do a full production and a workshop.

[4:07] Katy Sullivan: And they did a nationwide search for Ani.

[4:12] Katy Sullivan: And I was living in Los Angeles at the time.

[4:15] Katy Sullivan: And I remember getting sent the script.

[4:20] Katy Sullivan: It was the week of Valentine's Day.

[4:24] Katy Sullivan: And I read it and it immediately scared me because of how raw and real and vulnerable these characters are and that you end up having to be as an actor.

[4:42] Katy Sullivan: Martina doesn't throw any punches in that respect.

[4:45] Katy Sullivan: But also I was excited by it because it was too authentic.

[4:52] Katy Sullivan: It was too real.

[4:53] Katy Sullivan: There were these, like Greg said, the scenes of bathing and things like that, specifically the scene between John and Jess where they're bathing.

[5:03] Katy Sullivan: She's giving him a shower.

[5:05] Katy Sullivan: And they're talking about her night the night before.

[5:09] Katy Sullivan: And the ease of which conversation is happening while this kind of big event that you've never seen on stage or in film authentically is happening right in front of you.

[5:24] Katy Sullivan: There was something about that to me that was like this person has been in this situation before.

[5:29] Katy Sullivan: Because it just felt so real and authentic.

[5:34] Katy Sullivan: So I auditioned and I sent in a tape and then I had a callback.

[5:38] Katy Sullivan: And then I did the workshop and the rest is history.

[5:45] Christine Toy Johnson: So talking about the authenticity that you saw already on the page, I wonder if you could speak about the rehearsal process and what kind of conversations did you have with Martina about the elements that gave so much authenticity to the story?

[6:04] Gregg Mozgala: What I love about it is that disability didn't really come up much at all until it needed to.

[6:12] Gregg Mozgala: It's about we're actors, they're in service of the story.

[6:16] Gregg Mozgala: But I do remember one night specifically, Martina wanted to write another scene.

[6:22] Gregg Mozgala: And she wanted more information about the experience of CP, like what it was, how it affected the body, how it worked on the nervous system.

[6:33] Gregg Mozgala: And again, I should note, I'm not as severely disabled as John.

[6:39] Gregg Mozgala: His speech is heavily affected.

[6:41] Gregg Mozgala: He is a wheelchair user.

[6:43] Gregg Mozgala: His tension is much more severe than mine.

[6:48] Gregg Mozgala: So I had to build all that in and figure all that out.

[6:52] Gregg Mozgala: Luckily for me, I had people in my life.

[6:54] Gregg Mozgala: I had models of people like John is a composite of three different people that I know personally that I used to construct a character.

[7:04] Gregg Mozgala: Remember Martina asked me, you know, wanting to know more about CP.

[7:08] Gregg Mozgala: So I invited her over to my apartment.

[7:10] Gregg Mozgala: We had sushi, got drunk.

[7:12] Gregg Mozgala: And I told her I tried the best that I could to explain what it was.

[7:17] Gregg Mozgala: There's one line in the play in that scene where John describes the level of tension, like essentially CP being a brutality.

[7:28] Gregg Mozgala: It's a brutality in the body.

[7:29] Gregg Mozgala: It's violence.

[7:30] Gregg Mozgala: It feels like being punched from the inside.

[7:34] Gregg Mozgala: And I know that's something directly that I relate to Martina that made it into the script, which is cool.

[7:43] Gregg Mozgala: But again, it was like, I feel like all actors are good dramaturgs or should be, you know.

[7:47] Gregg Mozgala: So that was a part of the process that helps the storytelling in that particular scene.

[7:55] Gregg Mozgala: But it was really about how do we tell this story better?

[7:58] Gregg Mozgala: And for even for myself as an actor, it wasn't, you know, when you're doing a play for 10 minutes, I was really, really injecting all that tension, all the tension that I knew John's body would possess into that character when I was doing it in a 10 minute format.

[8:13] Gregg Mozgala: When you stretch that into an hour and a half format with eight performances a week, that was unsustainable.

[8:19] Gregg Mozgala: So I had to figure out how to protect my body, you know, and make it performative.

[8:26] Gregg Mozgala: And what I realized was that a wheelchair is a powerful symbol.

[8:30] Gregg Mozgala: Right.

[8:31] Gregg Mozgala: So as soon as I roll out on stage, people understand, like, OK, this guy is different.

[8:37] Gregg Mozgala: No other something is going on with him.

[8:39] Gregg Mozgala: You know, I had to remind myself that.

[8:43] Gregg Mozgala: John isn't disabled the first time that Jess or the audience experiences him.

[8:47] Gregg Mozgala: He's had a lifetime developing adaptations and compensations so that he can move and eat and participate at the very high level that he's participating in.

[8:56] Gregg Mozgala: You know, he's going to an Ivy League school.

[8:58] Gregg Mozgala: You know, he's on his own.

[9:00] Gregg Mozgala: Granted, he's probably in the top one percent of his wealth and privilege at that, you know, or to his benefit for that.

[9:09] Gregg Mozgala: But he is he is he has designed his life and worked to get to where he is.

[9:16] Gregg Mozgala: So where could I scale back for the reality of the CP that John might possess or the effects of CP that John might possess?

[9:25] Gregg Mozgala: So I could better tell the story and like have and play the scene, you know, with my scene.

[9:30] Gregg Mozgala: It was really fascinating. And I like I'm still even if I get the opportunity to do it again, I'm still going to be working on doing less, less, less, less, less, you know, in terms of the physicality.

[9:42] Katy Sullivan: Do you have anything to add about what the rehearsal process was like for you and any input you might have been able to give?

[9:51] Katy Sullivan: Like Greg, I had the fortune to have people in my life that I could model my character after I am specifically completely different from Ani in that she gets a she has an accident and a car accident and ends up with a spinal cord injury.

[10:14] Katy Sullivan: I am a double above the knee amputee. For me, the challenge was to figure out how to the physicality of being still.

[10:26] Katy Sullivan: She is paralyzed from about the shoulders down and she has movement in one of her arms.

[10:36] Katy Sullivan: So for me, the challenge really became figuring out that physicality from a place where there was no tension.

[10:44] Katy Sullivan: So Greg and I actually in some ways polar opposites of what we were asked to do physically.

[10:51] Katy Sullivan: I had to work really hard at spending all of my time relaxing and having all of my physicality and all of my emotions sort of sit from a place that's higher than than I'm that I'm physically used to.

[11:06] Katy Sullivan: And then the last scene. So I lay in a bathtub for about 20 minutes. And again, that was I had movement in my my neck and my head.

[11:15] Katy Sullivan: But other than that, she is she's vulnerable and and immobile.

[11:23] Katy Sullivan: So how do you we we kind of work together to figure out how to make that work and do so in as honest and respectful way as possible.

[11:36] Katy Sullivan: In that process, Katie and I were the experts. Right.

[11:39] Katy Sullivan: We were the experts of on these various disabilities.

[12:15] Katy Sullivan: You know, relaxed space where everyone was focused on the work and the end goal, right? But I just want to say again, that if you would cast non-disabled people, there would have been a lot more time and expense spent to teach someone, you know, how to put on a disability. Right. Which is unfortunately still a common.

[12:39] Gregg Mozgala: Yes. Very common practice, you know, in our field in film and television. Just to piggyback on top of what Gregg was saying, the idea of something would come up in the room and everyone's head would swivel and look at us. Sort of the people who were there to answer those questions. And I think that he's right. That is something that a performer with a disability walks into the room with an extra responsibility. You know, actors come to a table to work on something and generally there's a movement coach or someone brought in that's a consultant in the room to kind of explain to you how to do something or that extra lived experience. It's a different thing to feel like you're the expert in the room.

So I think it's interesting that you frame it this way because I think in all cases we would prefer that the team hire the appropriate people for these parts, for your authenticity, right? For the authenticity that you personally can bring into the room, as you just both mentioned. And yet it does also give you this extra added responsibility. Just listening to what you both said, you would prefer that to be the case, right? That you were there as an expert.

[14:10] Katy Sullivan: Have you ever been in a situation where you have been there and they've brought in some kind of a physical consultant? I'm trying to think if I have specifically. I mean, I've had movement coaches and choreographers and stage combat and things like that. We had a movement coordinator for both productions that we were involved in. So there were people in the room that were there specifically to address any needs, concerns, things that had come up. I think the way that Greg and I sort of frame this is that you're not necessarily given an opportunity very often as a performer with a disability to just play a human. It's generally because a character is written a certain way or because there's an opportunity to put a twist on this character and have them instead of just being able to just take on a role and not necessarily have it be specifically about disability.

And I think that's one of the things that was so exciting to the two of us about this play specifically, because it has disability contained in these characters. It's baked into the narrative, but it's not about disability. It's about relationships and it's about people sort of dealing with each other and wrestling with how to function in their lives and their worlds from this specific point of view.

[15:51] Gregg Mozgala: Right, right. I think in all, if not most of Martyna's works, it's about class and economics. Mm-hmm, right. And that tension. A lot of people want to put a lot of tension onto the fact that this play contains disabled characters, and they should. But the fact that that's such a rarity in 2020 or 2017, you know, whenever today, is a problem, you know? But the only thing that enabled us to be on stage and for this story to be made visible to wider audiences is the fact that a play was written. Right, right. And so that's why there's this conversation happening right now. You know, because a piece of art was the container that facilitated it. And fortunately, there were producers who were willing to let that piece of art see the light of day or the dark of the theater, right? And not only that, but also director and writer and producers that committed to casting it with performers with disabilities.

[16:52] Katy Sullivan: Absolutely. I think that any actor would read this play and say, oh, gosh, I want to do that. And I think that's where the challenge comes in with able-bodied people. Of course, you want to take on a role that's physically challenging and emotionally challenging and takes you to a vulnerable place. And you have to, you know, put 1000% of your soul into something. And I think that idea of an able-bodied person playing a disabled character is appealing to people because it's such a huge challenge. But I think where that becomes difficult is parody and the fact that performers with disabilities aren't then in turn given the opportunity to just play a lawyer or play a doctor. At this point, there has to be art created for this specific thing for most people to even consider putting a performer with a disability on stage or on TV. I mean, it's starting to change. I feel like we're at a really exciting time. But for the most part, it's been an incredible... I mean, uphill is not even the beginning of the sentiment.

[18:11] Gregg Mozgala: Lots of stairs. Lots of stairs in this journey. Let's say lots of stairs.

[18:15] Katy Sullivan: Lots of stairs. I want to talk to you both about your various modes of advocacy because I know that you both have been great and powerful advocates for performers with disabilities. Are there certain things that you have found the most impactful in terms of how you speak to people? When most people think of access, they think structural brick-and-mortar access, right? Can we just get people in the building? And that's important. But where I've seen the needle move, where I've seen progress, where I've seen change in my own life is through programmatic access. It means the work, the art. What do we do? We make plays. We make performance pieces. You know, we make theater. I just wanted to be an actor originally.

You know, I never wanted to do all the things that I've done. I feel like I've been driven into this lane because of a severe, severe lack of opportunity, education, and awareness. And I'm happy to do it because it's absolutely necessary and essential. But for all the talk about access and inclusion and diversity, I'm beginning to think, you know what? Just make plays. Just make stuff that we can be in. Just cast us, you know? We're not being cast in productions of All My Sons or, you know, the latest play off Broadway or whatever, because it doesn't call for disability. I understand that. So what are we going to do? How do we tell our own story? How do we tell our own history? How do we make that visible and share that with wider audiences?

Because historically, that's what every other marginalized population has done. So why aren't we doing the same? And I think, again, this play has enabled so much discussion and conversation. It's enabled so much employment for disabled actors, other designers. You know, a whole cottage industry, you know, is built around a piece of a play, right? If it is lucky enough to be produced.

[20:22] Gregg Mozgala: So I think now the flip side of that is only one play can do so much. And it's curious to me why a Pulitzer Prize-winning play hasn't received multiple productions in larger regional theaters across the country. And I think that's because the reality of casting disabled actors scares the ever-living shit out of people. I'm sorry, you can edit that out. You know what I mean? We don't have a censor, so you're fine. I think we need to start talking about the burden of exclusion, right? And what it is costing us to not be included and not be participating. And plays are the main currency in which we deal. So we got to make more plays. We got to develop more talent. We got to give people the opportunity to work. Right now, based on my experience to date, that is giving them work to be in. And if that has to be disability-specific, then by God, so be it.

[21:20] Katy Sullivan: Thank you. Katie, I'd love to know if you have thoughts to add. I grew up... I just wanted to be an actor. I didn't know the obstacles that I was going to be facing. And I have been given a lot of opportunities in my life. As an amputee who can put on a pair of jeans and kind of practice the art of blending in a bit, you know, I have had opportunities that I think that aren't afforded to performers with disabilities that don't have the luxury of being able to sort of disguise their disability in some way. But like Greg said, it's about creating and continuing to do your own work and do work as a community and encourage other people in the community to do work. And I started to produce and create content.

And we're pitching a television show right now, my writing partner and I. And we were in a meeting not that long ago, and this executive presented the idea of being a reluctant flag bearer. And it's like that idea of... I didn't grow up saying, I'm going to change the industry and I need to be an advocate. I didn't realize that that was going to be what was required of me so that I could have a career. In some ways, there are moments where I'm perfectly happy to be a flag bearer. And then there are times that I'm... It's exhausting, too, to be a person who is just to have the same opportunities as an able-bodied performer, have to do all these other things just to be on the same playing field, to be honest.

I think one of the biggest barriers I see everywhere is fear. And I wish people would be more willing to, as Greg, you mentioned, strategize with you how to make universal access actually be universal and include you and everyone, rather than just not try.

[23:31] Christine Toy Johnson: And I wondered if you have any thoughts, Gregg and Katy, about how to get that point across.

[23:40] Gregg Mozgala: I think the only way to do it is to do it, quite simply. I'm a producer with my company and with Queen's Theatre, and it takes some more work. It takes some more time. There's some more expense. It's true. Just as an example, at Queen's Theatre, we just look at our mission and say, what is our mission? And roughly, generally, it's to serve the most people possible with the highest quality art possible. So if we are ignoring 20% of the population, roughly 20% of the population in our own communities, in our own city, then we are remiss in our mission. So what do we have to do organizationally, structurally, programmatically, from a workforce perspective, to make our place more inclusive of everyone in our community?

And so we're looking at it from a mission standpoint, and I wish other theatres which have diversity large in their mission statements would do the same. The only thing that has enabled access to my community, that has brought me to my community and my community towards me in my life, in my adult life, has been theatre and the arts. And only through the experiential practice of doing it, of making work, of collaborating with others, speaking to my community, and making every mistake possible, I have learned how to do a little better. So the best thing that I can do is to do the work, but also document that work, write it down, because right now there are no models, or very few, for how to work in integrated professional settings with disabled people.

And disabled people is a huge, huge community. It's several communities under a large umbrella, and I have proximity and exposure to them. But I think you're absolutely right, Christine, the biggest issue, the biggest barrier is fear and anxiety. That's what disability does to people. It makes people anxious, because disability is anxiety inducing. It reminds us of our own vulnerability and our own immortality. So I think that's really scary. But you know what, the flip side of that is where is the game? You know, I had someone tell me once that there's actually great strength in our experience, because the context of disability, although it may be trauma, illness, pain, and death, everyone that experiences disability has confronted death and beat it.

And this person posed the idea to me that maybe that's what people are responding to. Maybe they're scared, because you have wrestled the angel, right? You have wrestled the angel, and you have come out through the other side. And so when people see you, they aren't responding to a lack or a deficit, they're responding to an incredible strength. And you know, all this talk of there, but for the grace of God, go I, and oh my God. And people literally say, well, you, I would kill myself. You know, people literally say that to people. The CDC, like, people can literally, care can now be rationed for disabled people all throughout this country in the midst of this pandemic. You know, it's awful, it's terrible.

You know, people can't comprehend this. But you know what, on a long enough timeline, everyone will deal with disability at some point in their life, either through accident, or old age, gravity is going to catch up with everybody. You know, so why not just, why not? Growing up theater was always, theater was the place that I found community, that I found a place where I belong. It was only until I entered college and the professional realm where I started to have these barriers thrown up all over me. I want theater to be that place that is for everyone. It's not about making a separate tent, you know what I mean? It's about making the tent bigger, being more inclusive of everybody. So figure it out.

And I think, you know, we have to go out, we have to get money, we have to go after funders, we have to get them to support it. Like that's the only way, because it's fear and anxiety, and also like the costs associated with this are very, very real. But there's enough money in this city, there's enough money in this country to make sure that every theater can provide those systems and implements for anyone who wants to experience theater. I truly believe that. It just needs to be done. Thank you. So beautifully said. Thank you so much. Katie, do you have any words you want to add?

[28:18] Katy Sullivan: It's access to experience theater. It's access to open people's eyes to this community and what's available to them. But I also think that it's access to education. For me, it really mattered. It was really important for me to go to a conservatory. I wanted to learn the fundamentals of acting and I wanted to learn from, you know, in a very deep dive. But I think that access to institutions that do such things, I don't know. I actually don't know. I can't say for 100% certainty, but I'm pretty certain that I was the first, you know, visibly disabled person to graduate from my conservatory program. So for me, the idea of access to getting education, because I think what ends up happening too is producers may go, oh gosh, okay, this would be so amazing.

Let's cast authentically. Let's find, you know, some amazing actor who is an amputee or who is a wheelchair user or something like that. And then it's their first professional opportunity to be in a room or an audition or to be handed a script and need to cold read or do any of these things that are skills that professional performers and actors need to know how to do. And so I think that fear is a huge part of it, but it's also taking risks and taking these opportunities to make the casting pool larger of people who know how to show up and be professional and do their job and not have to feel like, oh gosh, we're taking on this person who this is their first job, professional acting job, which is the case, unfortunately, for a lot of people.

[30:23] Gregg Mozgala: J.B., I think you're absolutely right on that. You know, there's so much emphasis, even within our own community in discussions about casting, casting, casting, casting, and there should be. That's important. But so much has to happen before you get to discussions about casting. So much. When we talk about access, again, let's look at some root causes, right? And education and training is the first thing. People have to be able to get in the door and then they have to have the opportunities to participate in all levels, in all aspects, you know? So I think you're right. So how do we look at the issue of access holistically, right? And how do we look at the issue of access so, yes, it might be more weighted towards the disabled community and PWDs, but what if we just started looking at access as an opportunity to open our doors and open our spaces and our arts to more people in general?

How do we get the most butts in seats? Right. Right. And not being afraid, I think, not to harp on fear, but not being afraid to ask questions so that all of the right pieces are in place to make, to set up each student for success, but, and especially when it takes a little extra work. So thank you for bringing that up. You know, one thing that we haven't touched on in this conversation is the great, the incredible intersectionality of disability, too, and how it covers all race, color, class, and creed, you know? And this is something that we have to be aware of in our work, too. I mean, Katie and I are both two Caucasian people, you know? And there's a lot of conversation within our community about, you know, making sure that there's inclusion and parity across the spectrum of all of disability, and that includes racial and gender parity, you know?

But how do we do that, you know what I mean? How do we do that if Yale just accepted their first disabled student? How do we do that if this is the first play in 2017, 2018, that people are seeing with disability on an off-Broadway level? How do we do that if Allie Stroker is the first person ever to win a Tony, you know, on Broadway, and can't even get on the stage to accept her award? You know what I mean? Like, it all has to happen at once, you know? But the reality is that we're at a very, we're at a very sort of beginning place in relation to the work that other communities and populations have done. But I think, look, Katie and I have said it's hard work and, like, it's something that we've had to take on, but I think we're both committed to doing it in our own way, because it's absolutely necessary.

I mean, I think there's something to bringing, you know, up the idea of this film in saying, who do we cast? And they end up casting able-bodied people, and we're seeing in other communities the outrage of that is the whole conversation that happened recently around Halle Berry playing a transgender man in a film, and there was so much outrage immediately that she said, I'm not even considering doing this anymore. But that doesn't happen for the disabled community, or it doesn't happen on the same level with the same intensity at this point for us. And I think that we're starting to see change, and it's exciting to be a part of that change, but it's also challenging and heartbreaking and exhausting at times.

[33:53] Christine Toy Johnson: Right. You know, as always, to be continued, these conversations are meant to spark thought to those who have not been having those thoughts, and to help propel actionable solutions. And I really thank you both for your insight and generosity today.

[34:14] Gregg Mozgala: Thank you so much for having us.

[34:17] Katy Sullivan: Katie and I were banging two rocks together looking for sparks.

[34:25] Christine Toy Johnson: My thanks to today's guests, Gregg Mozgala and Katy Sullivan. You can visit them both on the web at greggmozgala.com and katysullivan.net. Next week, we'll be discussing ageism in our industry with Sarah Tuft and Caroline Aron. Talkback is a production of the Dramatist Guild of America. It was produced by Sarah Storm, Amy von Masek, and myself. Our music was composed by Andrea Daly. Robert Prime mixed our show. Special thanks to Tina Fallon, Terry Stratton, and the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee at the Dramatist Guild. I'm your host, Christine Toy Johnson. Please support your favorite theater however you can. We'll be back next week.