This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jenna Ushkowitz: Hi, this is Jenna Ushkowitz, and you're listening to The Fabulous Invalid.

[0:15] Rob Russo: Welcome to the Fabulous Invalid, Broadway's podcast, where we present essential conversations with a curated roster of the best, most important and innovative theater makers working today, from actors to writers, directors, designers, and everyone in between.

[0:28] Jamie DuMont: We took our name from the title of a 1938 play by Kaufman and Hart that has since become a loving nickname for Broadway itself, always deemed on the verge of decline, yet always bouncing back, the fabulous invalid.

[0:38] Jamie DuMont: I'm Jamie DuMont.

[0:40] Rob Russo: And I'm Rob Russo, writer and theater critic with StageLeft.nyc and Stage Left the Podcast.

[0:46] Jamie DuMont: Hi, Rob.

[0:48] Rob Russo: Hi, Jamie.

[0:50] Jamie DuMont: Well, it's just us today.

[0:51] Rob Russo: I know, yeah.

[0:52] Jamie DuMont: We're back to, you know, back to what it was like when Jen was doing company.

[0:57] Rob Russo: I know, I love it.

[0:58] Jamie DuMont: You know, Jennifer Simard is busier now in quarantine than she was when she was doing eight shows a week.

[1:03] Rob Russo: And she is constantly doing stuff for the Actors Fund, helping out with this.

[1:08] Jamie DuMont: I mean, it's that's because she's such a good person.

[1:11] Rob Russo: Right.

[1:12] Jamie DuMont: That's very, very true.

[1:13] Rob Russo: And everybody loves her, so she's in demand, you know.

[1:15] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, including us.

[1:17] Rob Russo: Uh, but I'm so excited because this week uh we're chatting with my friend, uh, who's a star of Stage and Screen. She's an author, activist, podcaster, and producer, Jenna Ushkowitz.

[1:27] Rob Russo: Jenna made her Broadway debut in the 1996 revival of The King and I. Uh, and also appeared on Broadway in Spring Awakening and Waitress before venturing into producing with Once on This Island, for which she won a Tony Award, Be More Chill, uh, The Jungle, and The Inheritance.

[1:43] Rob Russo: But of course, she is most famous for creating and playing the role of Tina Cohen Chang for six seasons on the hit Fox TV series Glee.

[1:52] Rob Russo: And in addition to her career as an actor and producer, she's also entered the world of podcasting and has been an activist for civil rights and environmental causes and an advocate for adoption.

[2:03] Rob Russo: And I have to say, to properly set up the conversation, when I said my friend, um, I meant that quite literally. So Jenna and I went to high school together.

[2:12] Rob Russo: She was a year ahead of me, and we did several shows together. We had a very, very uh amazing theater department, and it was very close knit.

[2:20] Rob Russo: So she was like the little red to my baker. Uh we were in the baker's wife together, the Stephen Schwartz musical that no one does. And just really, really good theater-going buddies and best buds at the time.

[2:32] Rob Russo: Um, and I've kept in touch, obviously, over the years. And I know I'm sure we're gonna talk about it, but some of my favorite memories of Jenna stem from us going into the city to see shows, which we did all throughout high school.

[2:44] Rob Russo: Um, we saw Wicked together for the first time, we saw Spring Awakening together for the first time. Jamie, you're gonna love this. We saw Taboo together.

[2:52] Jamie DuMont: Wow.

[2:53] Rob Russo: Yeah, yeah. Just imagine like two like 16-year-olds just going to see Taboo, you know.

[2:58] Jamie DuMont: Tell me what you feel, I'll show you what to do.

[3:02] Rob Russo: You don't do sincere, everything's tell me what you feel, I'll show you what to do.

[4:05] Rob Russo: Well, you know, this solidifies over and over again to me the importance of art in education.

[4:05] Jamie DuMont: We don't do sincere, everything.

[4:05] Rob Russo: I'm still processing that your high school did the baker's wife. Like what high school does that?

[4:05] Jamie DuMont: Oh my god.

[4:05] Rob Russo: Our high school did Assassins, our high school did um the Laramie Project. We I mean, we we did a lot of really like, you know, choicey material.

[4:05] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, good for them.

[4:05] Rob Russo: And it was a uh Catholic high school.

[4:05] Jamie DuMont: It was a Catholic high school.

[4:05] Rob Russo: That's how see that's that's I think where I'm stuck in how progressive all these shows are.

[4:05] Rob Russo: The the head of our department was hired the year that the school opened, and a condition of his hiring in 1975 was that he would have total control over the productions, that the school would not interfere at all with his artistic freedom.

[4:05] Jamie DuMont: That's amazing.

[4:14] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, it's it you cannot understate how important it is.

[4:17] Rob Russo: Look at you!

[4:17] Jamie DuMont: Look at how well you turned out.

[4:19] Rob Russo: Yeah, no, I mean, so much of who I am is because of that theater department.

[4:22] Jamie DuMont: 100 I know!

[4:24] Rob Russo: And I'm sure Jenna we've met will say the same.

[4:26] Jamie DuMont: Yeah, absolutely.

[4:27] Rob Russo: Oh, for sure. Look, I mean, she's so accomplished and fantastic. I think I think we should waste no more time, and I think we should get to our conversation with...

[4:48] ♪ Musical number: "ABC" — performed by Jenna Ushkowitz ♪

[5:04] Rob Russo: Jenna, thank you so much for joining us today.

[5:07] Jenna Ushkowitz: Oh, thanks for having me.

[5:09] Rob Russo: Hey, well, I I have to say, Jenna, right off the bat, that I am one of the privileged few who had the opportunity to see you as Penny the Swan in Honk the Musical, which is if you don't know the musical version of the Ugly Duckling. The year was 2001. I was a member of the stage crew. Uh I was still in braces and battling acne. But I mentioned this because it's when I first fell in love with you. And I decided right then and there we would be friends.

[5:36] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yes.

[5:37] Rob Russo: I, you know what? Weren't you? Were you on the makeup crew with me for something? Or did I do your makeup for 1776?

[5:42] Jenna Ushkowitz: I think you did my makeup.

[5:46] Rob Russo: I did your wrinkles.

[5:47] Jenna Ushkowitz: I did your wrinkles.

[5:49] Rob Russo: I was Samuel Chase in 1776, the fat delegate from Maryland.

[5:54] Jenna Ushkowitz: That's right.

[5:54] Rob Russo: Which is a fact our listeners are very familiar with.

[5:58] Jenna Ushkowitz: That's right.

[6:00] Rob Russo: We have talked about 1776 before. It's very seminal for our country and for me personally.

[6:03] Jenna Ushkowitz: That's right.

[6:04] Rob Russo: For those who happen to miss the Holy Trinity High School production of Honk.

[6:09] Rob Russo: So you actually made your professional debut at the age of three. I was wondering if you could share with us how you got started in the business.

[6:17] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah, I mean, it was like a slow burn. Um I started when I was three. Um, I used to be the little one at restaurants that would go up to uh other families and say hi. And so, you know, everybody'd be like, You should she's so um outgoing and bubbly, you should put her in modeling. And so I started off in like a lot of print ads, and um, you know, back then there was like a good amount of money in print ads.

[6:44] Jenna Ushkowitz: So we um I ended up the 90s, you know.

[6:47] Rob Russo: Oh, yeah, exactly.

[6:49] Jenna Ushkowitz: But I had done like probably, gosh, over 500 print jobs and a hundred national commercials by the time I was like 10 or 11. Um so it was just nonstop when I was a kid, and I I and then I got into theater. And um, and um that's when I fell in love with Broadway, was when I um booked The King and I, the revival in 1996 with Donna Murphy and Lou Diamond Phillips.

[7:15] Jenna Ushkowitz: So that's really when like you know, I felt like it catapulted into something a little bit more serious, um, rather than just like you know, saving for my college fund.

[7:25] Rob Russo: The Royal Princes and Princesses.

[7:45] Jenna Ushkowitz: The King and I is my absolute favorite musical, and I saw that '96 revival probably more times than I should admit to. I saw Donna Murphy do it at least four or five times. I saw Faith Prince do it twice. I saw um Marie Osmond close it.

[8:03] Rob Russo: Yeah.

[8:03] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um, I'm pretty sure I there was another, I'm missing a Mrs.

[8:06] Rob Russo: Anna.

[8:07] Jenna Ushkowitz: There's somebody in there. Uh it was Donna than Faith.

[8:13] Rob Russo: You're right. There was somebody else that I'm missing as well.

[8:16] Jenna Ushkowitz: You definitely saw Misses.

[8:18] Rob Russo: I did, I was with Donna, and then I was with Faith for a very short period.

[8:22] Jenna Ushkowitz: Oh no, no, I was just with Donna. That's right.

[8:23] Rob Russo: I was just with Donna. Um, I saw you, I saw you four times, then is what I'm doing.

[8:30] Jenna Ushkowitz: That's great.

[8:30] Rob Russo: I know, I know. I love that production. I love that show. It had to have been magical. You were eight years old, if I'm not mistaken. Um what tell tell us a little bit about that. What was your favorite part of doing that show?

[8:42] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah, um, well, the good thing about that show, um, you know, kind of like the Sound of Music, there's just a ton of kids in them in the show. So, like, it's like an after school activities. I mean, I was in fourth grade, I was nine and ten, so I was in fourth grade, and I would go to school, and then um I would, my dad would pick me up, and we would drive into the city, and he bought a minivan so that I could sleep on the way home because it was a long show.

[9:11] Jenna Ushkowitz: It was a two-hour and 45, 50-minute show, right? Um, and uh I, you know, it was just the weirdest thing, but there were 14 of us. And so there was a schoolroom, we had like two floors of the dressing rooms on the fourth and fifth floor. The Neil Simon had the elevator with the the elevator operator named Lloyd. So like we became friends with Lloyd, and like everybody just lived for the children.

[9:36] Jenna Ushkowitz: And so we were treated like gold there. And like we just we were brought into this family, and I got to see like what the Broadway community was all about at a very young age. And um, you know, I think it's I I definitely it definitely taught me discipline and responsibility in a different way than any uh, you know, other nine-year-old probably, unless there's you know, a kid playing tennis at nine. But like, um, but it was uh I think the most fun was like hanging out with this this these people that um I could call family.

[10:13] Jenna Ushkowitz: And um also like uh I think about this now, like being around 50 cast, I think there were 52 cast members, and um 95% of them were Asian American. So like for me, it was like being around, I was adopted, and so my parents are Italian and an Irish Catholic. And so being around 50 other people who looked just like me, who, you know, brought me into this world was like, I I think it was really profound for me as a as a young child and really shaped who I was and and my boosted my confidence, I think.

[10:48] Rob Russo: Haven't you noticed suddenly I'm sorry, just reason because of all the beautiful and beautiful and news on loving a volunteer.

[11:05] Jenna Ushkowitz: I take that's such a unique experience, particularly back in 96. Um, you're very you're very fortunate.

[11:17] Rob Russo: I I'm assuming those are all friendships you've made friendships that have continued beyond that production in terms of the the cast members.

[11:25] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah, you know, it's strange now because um I've actually gotten back into touch with a lot of people because social media wasn't around at that time. You really had to make an effort. And I was a kid living on Long Island going to school. So like it wasn't like we could have dinner in the city. Like I was, you know, uh when I left the show, I was 10 years old.

[11:42] Jenna Ushkowitz: So um, you know, now it's really interesting, these all the like the women who played my mother, and like um, you know, all these cast members and dancers have families and kids that are are grown, and um the littlest ones are now over 21, which is wild, um, because they were three and five when I was in the show. And um, yeah, I've definitely kept a lot of friendships. The uh ironically, the the one that I've kept the closest with is Donna Murphy.

[12:10] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um we just you know bonded really quickly um during the show, and she really took to me and um I'm just so grateful. And like to be able to have a role model like that in the industry, who is, I mean, obviously iconic at this point, and then to to have her um like a second mom, really, has been so wonderful.

[12:32] Rob Russo: She's such a light in my life. So I will never forget when we went to see her in Wonderful Town, Jenna. And we went backstage and we got to meet her. And it was so cool because, you know, obviously we were meeting Donna Murphy, but it was so special to see the two of you interact because it was very clear to me that like it wasn't a casual thing.

[12:53] Rob Russo: Like she really was so invested in you. You know, we were in high school at the time, right? So this is before Glee. This is before, you know, you've done all these other amazing things since then. Like we were just high school kids who, you know, were doing the spring musical. And she took the time to chat with us.

[13:07] Jenna Ushkowitz: And like it just it was a very special thing that all over the world. And she is really, really special. I mean, for also people who don't know, like Rob and I, I don't I don't know if you'll preface this at all, but like Rob and I, you know, obviously we're very close in high school, and like on our weekends, we chose to like take the money that we had saved and go and like student rush shows when you could student rush and go to the box office and get 26 seats or you know, go to TKTS and see what was on the board, and we would go to our hard rock uh or planet Hollywood, right? And we would get our our food or dinner, and then we would go see shows and take the train home. And that was like a lot of our weekends.

[13:43] Rob Russo: Uh well, we have to talk about Glee, obviously, because you know, it's Glee. Um, and you know, it was such a groundbreaking TV show, really, for its like weekly integration of musical performance into a scripted comedy drama series. It gave voice to so many different types of characters that you never really saw, you know, on on the small screen. Um, I was wondering if you could share with us a little bit about the casting process for that. Because I imagine it was, you know, sort of unique for a TV show because it had so many different elements, not just being able to act, right?

[14:16] Jenna Ushkowitz: No, no, definitely. It was, I mean, shockingly, they did not ask us to move or dance once.

[14:22] Rob Russo: Really?

[14:23] Jenna Ushkowitz: What? Not not once. I know. It's pretty wild. So basically, you know, there was the LA casting and the New York casting. I was um I had just graduated from Marymount Manhattan College in 2007. Um, I had booked Spring Awakening as a swing um in early 2008. I joined the cast, I think January 3rd. And um, I had been with that show, and I think the casting process started for Glee around in like April of 2008. And um, Jim Carnahan was casting it, and he had also cast Spring Awakening. So I mean, he basically brought in our entire theater. Like we were walking into Telsey and or Jim, uh Jim's offices, and like it was like, you know, uh the revolving door. Oh, hey, oh hey, friend, hey friend, hey Skylar, hey, hey Alessandra. So it was um it was pretty crazy.

[15:14] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um, but I went in for Tina, and her one her two lines in the pilot are stutters. Um she originally was written to have Tourette's. And so um she has two lines and that was it. And on I mean, fortunately, unfortunately, I don't know. We we didn't have to sing for our initial audition and our tape for Jim, because they knew we were on Broadway in Spring Awakening. So they were like, we know you can sing. Um, so just come in and read for the the lines. So, you know, you know, when you have like one or two lines, you kind of look and you're like, Oh, I got it. And it's whoa wah what and I uh uh I. That was those were Tina's two audition lines.

[15:57] Jenna Ushkowitz: So I I know, and and she had Tourette's. And so I had to do some research on like, you know, what it's like for a girl to have Tourette's in her, you know, uh her teen year years, and and just because like I didn't want it to be an impression, I wanted it to be um something that she, you know, actually emulated and had, and so and you know, struggled with. So it was really interesting. But um, I did the one line and I kind of forgot that there was two, and so he's like, okay, let's do the other one. And I was like, what? And that was it.

[16:31] Rob Russo: What?

[16:33] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um wild. So um so you nailed it, yeah.

[16:39] Jenna Ushkowitz: You know, you know what? I did, I did. Um I forgot about it.

[16:43] Rob Russo: Right.

[16:43] Jenna Ushkowitz: Exactly. I forgot about it. Um, it kind of went away. And then about a month later, I got a call um saying Ryan Murphy and the producers of Glee were coming into New York and they wanted to meet me. So I went in and I sang Waiting for Life to Begin, which is weirdly ironic after uh having produced uh, you know, co-produced the revival. And um, because Tina has no lines, I I sang and you know, it's like any normal musical theater audition where you probably sound like shit and the accompanist is on the wrong tempo and you're just singing and it's weird.

[17:18] Jenna Ushkowitz: But um, you know, we got through it. And uh Ryan said, okay, well, since there's no lines for Tina, I I would love if you could just improvise. And um, you know, panic set in. And I I was like, you know, stuttering with this Tourette's and saying, like, basically what I I improvised that my mom wanted me to join Glee Club because it would be good for me to make friends um because of my challenges. So he was like, I just love that you made her so positive. And I was like, thank you. And I left, and then um, about another month later, it was uh really like two, three months like um I got a call and said they're gonna test your tape for studio, which is basically when you go in for TV.

[18:09] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um you you go in, you go for the casting directors, you go for producers, and then they'll take you to the studio, and you have to pass through the studio, and then usually the next day you'll go to network. And if you test, it's usually like down to one, two or three of you for the role. So because I was in New York and I was literally in the show, they said, Well, test your tape for studio, and then if you pass, you'll find out you'll get on a red eye tonight after your show and you'll test in the morning in LA for Fox. So I found out during the show that my studio tape had passed and that I would be flying to LA.

[18:44] Jenna Ushkowitz: So I flew, and um, that morning they they put me up at the Intercontinental. I walked over to Fox, I tested with a bunch of other people, including Kevin McHale and Chris Kulfer. I sang, um, I did the Tina stutters, I did the the improv again, and um I actually tested with Gideon Glick as well, um, who was there for Artie. And within 30 minutes after we tested, I found out that I had gotten the show.

[19:13] Rob Russo: Wow.

[19:14] Jenna Ushkowitz: Wow.

[19:15] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah. That's that's quite a story. Um, I have a quick sort of sidebar question. What was your go-to audition song in that period in your life? Was it waiting for life to Begin?

[19:23] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um, what was that period of time?

[19:28] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um honestly, no, it was not waiting for life, and that was probably the first time I had sang that song as an audition. I just loved it so much. Um I had a big book because I had come out of college, and I think Fine Line was my biggest 32.

[19:44] Rob Russo: Oh my god.

[19:46] Jenna Ushkowitz: I love that. It was a good mix. And so, like, she had that like pingy mix as well. And I was like, this is just gold. You gotta go after the things you want while you're stealing your prime.

[20:04] Jenna Ushkowitz: There's a fine fine patent.

[20:14] Jenna Ushkowitz: And a waste of time.

[20:26] Jenna Ushkowitz: And for pop at that time, because they were asking for a lot of pop, um, or like contemporary Broadway, it was hopelessly devoted to you.

[20:35] Rob Russo: Those are great songs.

[20:37] Jenna Ushkowitz: Thanks. Wow. It's funny, it's also so funny to think of hopelessly devoted to you as a pop song.

[20:44] Jenna Ushkowitz: Because it's not really a show tune, right? Because it wasn't, it wasn't written for the musical, it was written for the film, but it's so equated to Greece in my mind that it it anyway.

[20:53] Rob Russo: That's interesting.

[20:54] Jenna Ushkowitz: Okay, back to Glee.

[20:55] Rob Russo: I'm I'm sorry, I just I know I love that question. I'm fascinated by the audition process. Plus, you know, don't take this the wrong way. You were very young, and those are such smart song choices.

[21:07] Jenna Ushkowitz: You know, I think I think it's really smart.

[21:11] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um, and I think it's also says a lot about who you are, that you you were very in tune with your strengths as a performer and when how to showcase that. And and I just anyway, so I'm thank you for indulging me.

[21:25] Rob Russo: Um back to Glee.

[21:28] Rob Russo: Um Tina, she's a goth girl, right?

[21:32] Jenna Ushkowitz: Or what or started out as a goth girl, and that's very different, clearly from who you are. So I'm curious, were there were there any things that you learned by playing her, anything that she taught you as a character.

[21:45] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um tell me a little bit about that.

[21:47] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah, I mean, actually, like going back even to uh after booking the pilot and going in, um, I was originally supposed to be a nerd. Tina was supposed to be a total nerd like Artie. She had mom jeans and she had Ked sneakers and sweater vests. And I think when Ryan saw the the board of um, you know, Artie and Tina, we looked too similar. It was like it was too close to, you know what I mean? Like it just didn't, it wasn't um dynamic enough for him, I think.

[22:18] Jenna Ushkowitz: And so I went in for a second fitting, and our costume designer Lou Arick, who does, I mean, every Ryan Murphy thing ever, she's amazing, was like, we're going golf. And I was like, oh my gosh. So my audition song in the pilot was I obviously I kissed a girl from Katy Perry, but it was originally if I were a bell.

[22:37] Jenna Ushkowitz: And she was supposed Tina was supposed to sing if I were a bell for her audition. Um and so it just totally shifted, which it clicked. It clicked for me. I was like, yeah, this makes sense. Cause if I were a bell, like Rachel would have done, right? Like that.

[22:51] Rob Russo: Totally, totally.

[22:52] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um, so it just totally like it gave it just another, it gave her another layer. I think what I learned from Tina, and I think I've I found more similarities than I thought I would with her and her character, and with her and me kind of stepping into her shoes.

[23:09] Jenna Ushkowitz: Like, I was I'm an extrovert, but I'm also like a massive introvert. I'm a little bit of both. And so um obviously this the misconception is that all performers are extroverts, right? Um, because we have to just be on. But I'm a total introvert. And so um it's I really found that like we were similar in ways that like she would she would sit in the background, and then when she had something to say, she would say it.

[23:36] Jenna Ushkowitz: And then she would kind of go back into the background again, you know. And so um, I like to call Tina an onion. Like you just peel back her layers, you learn a little bit more about her every time you like take another layer off. Um, which is I think throughout the six seasons, we really got to see her evolve.

[23:51] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um, because she got more screen time and she, you know, she was a senior after those kids had graduated, and she was like, I'm the queen be now, like, you know, hear me roar. Um, and so I think I I found a lot more, um I actually found that I was more similar to her than I had thought. I think that's what I learned.

[24:13] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um I I appreciated her. I think um Jane Lynch actually said something to me that really um stayed with me. She in like season two or three, when I wasn't really being written for as much as I probably would have liked because there were 18 of us at the time. Um, she said, you know, you're you remind me of me. She said, you know, you and Tina remind me of me. You kind of sit in the background, and then you come out, you wham bam punch, and then you go back.

[24:42] Jenna Ushkowitz: And I just like that really meant a lot to me, especially coming from Jane Lynch, who has had quite the courier to feel like um you don't always have to be in the spotlight, you don't always have to be, you know, number one and and um kind of like down center all the time. So uh that was really helpful for me.

[25:02] Rob Russo: I imagine you having such a background in musical theater that that must have really helped you get through all of that.

[25:11] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think that I think it helps. Not everyone did, right?

[25:17] Rob Russo: No.

[25:17] Jenna Ushkowitz: And and here's the thing like a lot of people, you know, Kevin came from music and he was in a boy band, so that definitely helped. And like, you know, Amber came from being a session singer for a long time. And so she, you know, she rocked in the recording studio and she has, you know, the voice of a lifetime. But um, you know, it was it was helpful with the discipline and it was helpful with the regimen because like we just always showed up on time anyway.

[25:43] Jenna Ushkowitz: And like uh in Hollywood, a lot of the time they have people who literally will take your hand and walk you from one place to the other because that's where they need you to be, or else people wander. Um, so for us, it was like, yeah, you know, being on time is 30 minutes early. Um, and so that definitely helped. But um, having six weeks to learn a show on Broadway, or you know, some you know, form of that or uh range, like we learn these numbers in one day, and we'd be like, we're perfectionists. I'm a perfectionist, and if it's not perfect.

[26:15] Jenna Ushkowitz: Like I it's really frustrating. So I had to kind of like loosen up on my control issues with that because um you learn a number with you having shot for 12 hours that day and worked and then having to learn this number, soak it in, go to bed, come back 12 hours later and do it, you know, at in you know, at full speed. So it was pretty wild. Um, but yeah, I think with the discipline, it definitely helped. We were like, all right, I guess we could do this. But for six years, I I don't know how we I actually don't know how I did it. But I see your chill colours shining through. I see your shoe cars, and that's why I love you. So don't be afraid to let them show your truth. True colours, a beautiful like a rainbow.

[27:24] Rob Russo: Speaking of your six years on television and your career in theater, do you looking at both of those, do you have a preference for one or the other? I mean, they're very different mediums. They take the same amount of discipline, but at this point in your career, do you do you have a preference for working in one medium?

[27:42] Jenna Ushkowitz: It's a good question. Um I go back and forth every day. Um, I think I like, I mean, at the core, at my core, theater is home. The stage is home for me. Um, there's nothing like being in front of a live audience and and getting instant gratification and getting that that rush, you know, that you get when you perform. Um I I think Glee was a juggernaut that is always a once in a lifetime opportunity. Um TV, TV can be great, but TV's schedules are shit. Um at least in my experience. Like you can't schedule anything, and you really are kind of like uh your own at that point, and not in a bad way, it's just that that's your time is theirs. Um, and so for me, I I think I like the the that I know what a Broadway schedule is, and I know that like from six to eight, you know, six to ten every night, like that's my time, and like I and that's when that's my time to work.

Um I don't know though, because like when I did waitress, it was like, oh wow, like you can't do anything else. Like a Broadway performer's life is really like you you are dictated by the fact that you can't talk all day, you can't go and do all this crazy stuff all day long, which I don't some people do labs and you know rehearsals for other shows during the day and then go to their show, and I don't know how they do it. But um I I honestly don't know. That's it's a really hard question for me to answer because I love my life in LA and I love um working um in front of the camera behind the camera, but there's just something that I think uh is like no other when you're on stage performing.

[29:34] Rob Russo: Well, one way that you have, you know, sort of stayed um very involved in the theater is by becoming a producer. Um and I know you you alluded earlier to Once on This Island, um, which I believe was the first project you co-produced. Is that right?

[29:49] Jenna Ushkowitz: Correct, yes. Yeah, and you won a Tony Award. So I mean right out the crazy right out the bat, yeah.

[29:55] Rob Russo: Right out of the gate.

[29:56] Jenna Ushkowitz: Thanks so much. So what what made you want to start producing for the stage among all the many hats that you've worn in your career to date?

[30:05] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah, you know, I think it started um kind of like around the during Glee, like I started to use different parts of my brain that I had never used before, as far as um, you know, my my craft. Like I knew how to perform, I knew how to um sing and dance and act, but like just using the the organizational part of my brain that was like, oh, I I like connecting people, I like networking, I like um putting things together, I like creating content. Like that was new for me. And so um I started realizing like when I wrote uh uh my book, Choosing Glee in 2013, it was the first time I had started to like kind of step out on my own and go like, oh, there's other facets of this this industry that I could really take advantage of um that suit me well.

And so that's when I started to learn about it. And then Hunter Arnold, who is the lead producer on Once on This Island, the revival, um my producing partner, Ashley Latimer, she had been working with Hunter and joined this group called Uplift. And it's a producer initiative for the um underrepresented in in um the producing world. So um basically Hunter decided that when once on this island was going to uh come to Broadway, that he wanted to bring in the underrepresented producers out there, because who is he as a 40-year old white man to tell this story about this young uh woman of color from you know this Caribbean island. And so he um he wanted to go out there, and I think out of 13,000 producer slots, three of them were African American uh that year.

And so it was really jarring to him, and he thought, okay, well, if that's the case, then I'm gonna I'm gonna make them. I'm gonna make these underrepresented producers. And so we started up lift. Um and Ashley had actually come to me looking for investors, and she was like, but actually, I think you'd be really great for this program. So if you want to join in, maybe we could go in on this together. So we actually co-produced this together as Ushkowitz Latimer Productions. And um I had started a nonprofit called the Kindred Foundation for Adoption, which kind of stemmed out of this executive producer um position I had on this documentary, Twinsters, where my best friend actually found her twin through Facebook.

Um and and they were separated at birth and adopted to two different countries, and they found each other on Facebook at 26 years old. And it was on Netflix, it world premiered itself by Southwest, and it's a really, really compelling and uh gorgeous story. And um, you know, the fact that they could find each other, luckily that young, you know, you'd think like ironically, 2026 is not that young, but a lot of twins end up finding finding each other much later in their lives um if they were separated. So um, sorry, I'm like going off on tangents here, but we um I started that, you know, foundation for, you know, adoptees for socio and economic um needs, and um Sam and I co-founded that together.

And so I had been started like I had started really fundraising a lot and reaching out to people and had like a small group of um really amazing donors and um people who were really invested in me and my projects. And so it really lent itself to um coming on board for Once on This Island really quickly. Um I think I had a month to raise uh for our raise uh for Once on This Island. So it was really quick. And it was during Thanksgiving. So I actually gave myself two ulcers. Um no props, no props. But uh, you know, so yeah, that was um that's that was once on this island. And then I kind of stuck with this program for a couple of years. And we did um the jungle at the on the West End and um the inheritance, uh, but not through the program anymore. Ashley and I had to graduate and um uh and also did separately Be More Chill on Broadway as well. Right. It's been really fun, really fun.

[34:37] Rob Russo: So how do you um go about picking which projects you want to get involved in? Because you know, obviously you got two ulcers, right? It's a lot of work. Um, you know, so yeah, how do you how do you pick what show you wanna do?

[34:49] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah, I think it's money. I think it's all about I think it's finding it's all about timing and it's all about the stories. Um I think Ashley and I um have really chose story stories we want to tell uh first and foremost. And so once on this island, uh being quite as diverse as it was with a young woman at the helm of the show was really uh really interesting to me. And um, the inheritance as well, the two part um that unfortunately, you know, didn't get an official closing night like many shows uh didn't, but um also gosh, uh really important, I think. It was a really important story to tell. Um and needed to be needed to be made and and seen in the US. And so we got to um, I mean, we begged Hunter for that one and for the jungle as well, which is all about refugees um at this camp.

So um, it's really first and foremost stories, but then also with our investors and you know, being a new producer, our our network is quite small, so you know, right now. And so we don't have a ton of people to reach out to over and over again. You know what I mean? Like it's it's uh so it's really smart about it. Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, I picked the right people and and obviously um, but we've had we've been really lucky with our network and the people who have supported us and and the arts. So um, you know, first and foremost, story, but also just timing too, you know.

[36:28] ♪ Musical number: "Waiting For Life" — performed by Jenna Ushkowitz ♪

[37:00] Rob Russo: Well, among your many hats that I alluded to earlier is uh the fact that you've also been somewhat of a pioneer of the podcast world. Um, I know you and I had dinner like five years ago, and you were talking about podcasts, and that's like before anybody was talking about podcasts. Um you were uh a co-founder of Outwill Radio, um and you've hosted now, I believe, three different um shows. Podcasts. Um Infinite Positivities, Epic Fail, which I loved, um and your new show with Kevin McHale, uh Showmance, uh Glee Recap edition. So how how did you first get involved in podcasting?

[37:39] Jenna Ushkowitz: You know, uh gosh, after I had moved back to New York, and it was uh shortly before I booked Waitress. There was this time when I would um between between the time that I had shot Hello Again, the musical movie with um, you know, the wonderful Audre McDonald and Martha Plinton and Cheyenne Jackson, I felt very lucky. Casual among those people. Yeah, yeah, pretty wild. No big deal. Um gosh, I just love that musical so much, and I fell in love with it, and Michael John is just so wonderful, and so it was pretty wild. But um, I did that, and then there was this lull, and and I don't really like to sit around. I I really live on the principles of making your own opportunities. And so um podcasting felt like the next venture, you know, after writing a book and performing a little bit.

It was like I I felt like I had some more to say. And so um, we kind of uh framed the the podcast after my book, um, you know, living your most, you know, happy and positive life. And so my friend Will and I um uh he was the founder of um at Will Media, it's now called. He was in New York, he lives in New York, and he was kind of uh taking a shift from the restaurant business into more a more creative field. And um we were sitting at lunch, and I said, you know, I think I'm gonna start a podcast. I really don't know a lot about it, but I and he goes, that's so weird. I've been trying to build a podcast network. And it was kind of like Kismet. It was just one of those things that you go, okay, cool, let's let's do it. So um we uh he was like, if you want to be a founding host on the network, um, I will also would love to have you on as um a partner in the company.

[39:31] Jenna Ushkowitz: And so um, you know, I felt very lucky to have a a place that was already kind of set up for me to go in in a studio. He built a whisper room and um, you know, kind of just try this out. And he's really creative. And we, you know, we learned a lot by Infinite Positivities. I learned how hard it is to model a theme around a guest rather than like have a broad theme and have your guests come in and chat. Um I learned how to be a host for the first time and really gear like uh shift, you know, um lead a conversation. So um, and then as Infinite Positivities came to a close, it was like, do we want to do this again? Or is it too hard? It's like a lot. Um and I really enjoyed it, but it it was time to shift gears.

And so we shifted to Epic Fail. And same producers, it was at Will Media. And we just thought, like, you have all these amazing, you know, performers coming in telling really funny stories. So why don't we just like kind of uh I don't know, just shift with that. And so uh Epic Fail was all these amazing performers telling us about the one the one fuck up that they had that they remember very, very vividly, which you just never forget. Um and and then Showman's came about years later when I moved back to LA, and Kevin and I had just been looking for something to do together again after Glee. We're you know the best of friends, and um, you know, I think there's any excuse to work with your friends is really great.

And we've learned a lot about each other during the podcast. But um the podcast initially was about couples who have met, and not necessarily like uh romantic couples, but uh work wives, work husbands, and um friends who have worked together or met through work, and so we kind of wanted to just like explore other people's experiences that were similar to ours, and so um that was Showman's season one, and then we kind of shifted because the response from the Glee fans was just so massive, and you know, you gotta give your fans what they want. And so uh anytime a Glee member would come on, it was like talk more about Glee, talk more about Glee. And we were like, are we supposed to be doing a Glee recap podcast?

Um, and so we have, and it's done really uh uh I mean the response has been amazing, and we're we're having a really good time re-watching it. I mean, we're still early in the early seasons, so we'll see how it goes later on. But uh yeah, yeah, that's uh so that's been the podcast world, and I I'm really loving it, and obviously, you guys know, um, and Rob, when you told me you were doing this, I was like, it just made so much sense to me for you to shift into you know the your your Stage Left blog and your reviews and your, you know, this. It's just um it just made total sense.

[42:29] Rob Russo: So well, it's funny. What you you were one of the first people that we asked to come on our show, but at the time, you know, you're and you still are primarily in LA, and we were trying not to at least initially do phone interviews. So like you said yes right away, and then we were like, oh, but you know what? The sound quality won't be as good. So we we waited, and then of course, you know, a year and a half later, we have no option but to do uh a phone or or online interview. So thank you for being an early booster of ours. And uh so glad we could finally you know get together.

[42:57] Jenna Ushkowitz: I know, I know. I mean, luckily it's it's uh some of the few things that we can do right now, you know. It's a very safe way of connecting.

[43:06] Jamie DuMont: It's true. It's very but Jenna, you make a good point because it is, you know, podcasting, it it can be challenging, and you really do have to learn a new skill set if you're you know, if you've not been a talk show host or done those kinds of things, and it it it can be very challenging, and you you are spectacular at it and and your shows are great. Epic Fail is really a masterpiece, and it's it's well worth it's well worth checking out. Um but before we as we as we sort of um draw to a close, we thought it would be fun since we are in quarantine times uh to play a little game. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna put a minute on the clock and uh we're just gonna ask you a sort of a quick fire round of questions, Rob and I will go back to the book.

[43:40] Jenna Ushkowitz: So nervous.

[43:50] Jamie DuMont: No, don't be too don't be too nerve nervous. I mean, I think uh you know all the answers. Yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. Okay, so I'm gonna start now. First Broadway show you saw.

[44:02] Jenna Ushkowitz: What's your go-to cast album?

[44:05] Jenna Ushkowitz: Oh, you're a good man Charlie Brown.

[44:09] Jamie DuMont: Ah the revival, I assume.

[44:13] Jenna Ushkowitz: The revival. And also um Children of Eden.

[44:17] Jamie DuMont: Wow. Okay, favorite snack food.

[44:20] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um kale chips.

[44:23] Jamie DuMont: There's no wrong answer. Um, favorite tattoo. I know you have a ton.

[44:26] Jenna Ushkowitz: Oh gosh. Uh the Jason Robert Brown um Love is always better on my arm.

[44:35] Jamie DuMont: Dream Broadway role.

[44:38] Jenna Ushkowitz: Am I too old now? Kim and Miss Saigon.

[44:42] Jamie DuMont: It's the stage. You can be any age.

[44:44] Jenna Ushkowitz: I don't know about that.

[44:46] Jamie DuMont: Yankees or Mets?

[44:47] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yankees.

[44:48] Jamie DuMont: Burrito or sandwich?

[44:50] Jenna Ushkowitz: Burrito.

[44:51] Jamie DuMont: Glinda or Alphaba.

[44:56] Jenna Ushkowitz: Elphie.

[44:57] Jamie DuMont: First celebrity crush.

[45:01] Jenna Ushkowitz: Rider Strong.

[45:04] Jamie DuMont: I don't know who that is.

[45:06] Jenna Ushkowitz: Boy Meets World.

[45:07] Jamie DuMont: Oh, um, yeah.

[45:08] Jenna Ushkowitz: Oh my gosh.

[45:09] Jamie DuMont: Uh, what was your worst non-theater job?

[45:13] Jenna Ushkowitz: Working at a bagel store.

[45:16] Jamie DuMont: Favorite curse word.

[45:18] Jenna Ushkowitz: Fuck.

[45:19] Jamie DuMont: Of course. And then this last one is probably the most unfair question we could ever ask anyone. Favorite Donna Murphy performance.

[45:27] Jenna Ushkowitz: Oh, good lord. Um. Um. Okay, I'm gonna go old and new. So I'm a big two. I'm gonna go with uh The King and I, uh, Mrs. Anna, and I'm gonna go with Hello Dolly. Uh she was spectacular.

[45:44] Rob Russo: Uh it's unbelievable.

[45:47] Jenna Ushkowitz: It's it's unbelievable. Drop dead.

[45:49] Rob Russo: It's yes, it was uh it's one for the books.

[45:53] Jenna Ushkowitz: We need a pro tape, we need a cast album, we need all of it.

[45:57] Rob Russo: Right. We were just robbed.

[45:59] Jenna Ushkowitz: We were totally robbed. I just want to live in that performance for the rest of my life.

[46:18] Jamie DuMont: Jenna, I love the story at the very beginning of your book, Choosing Glee, where you talk about being a baby and your parents see you for the first time, and you have a huge smile on your face. And I feel like that smile just has continued with you until this very moment. You are such a such a delightful positive person. It's it's it's really been a joy chatting with you today. Um before before we let you go, though, we have a couple of final questions. Um what was that show or thing that made you want to be an actor?

[46:52] Jenna Ushkowitz: I guess the easy answer is um The King and I.

[46:58] Jamie DuMont: What's the hard answer?

[47:00] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah. I mean, I don't gosh. I'd have to think about that. Um I I like to make things hard for myself if you haven't figured that out. Um, I think it was the I think it was The King and I, you know, and then I think also um Les Mis, you know, bringing it back around. We uh it was my first musical, and I think I fell asleep in the middle of it when I was, I mean, I was probably so young. And um, we were able to actually, we were the Holy Trinity High School in Hicksville was the first high school production of Les Mis anywhere in the world. And so um I was a freshman and Rob wasn't even in school yet, and I but I was at every performance.

[47:40] Rob Russo: That's right, of course.

[47:41] Jenna Ushkowitz: I mean Cameron Mackintosh came, and it was really he uh really groundbreaking, and that was really cool. Um and so Les Mis also is a really important musical in my life.

[47:54] Jamie DuMont: And it and those are both great shows. Um we know there's no tune like a show tune. And do you have a particular show tune that's on heavy rotation in these um difficult times we find ourselves in?

[48:08] Jenna Ushkowitz: Oh, interesting. Um, you know, I don't I don't have a quarantine show tune right now. A lot. I've been playing a lot of Dua Lipa, to be honest. But um I if I had to pick one that I've I've played on loop a lot. Um when I was producing, when I was co-producing and raising money for um uh Once on this Island, I was playing Michael in the Bathroom from Be More Chill. On I mean, on I think I've played it over a thousand times now.

[48:41] Rob Russo: So how amazing is that because then you would become a producer of Be More Chill, right?

[48:45] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah. Exactly.

[48:46] Rob Russo: Wow. It's funny how things come full circle, isn't it?

[48:51] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah. I have all my whole life is a is full circle. It's it's crazy.

[48:56] Rob Russo: Well, I have to share one more little moment of just serendipity is um in 2006, I guess. Um, I don't know if you remember this, Jenna, but we saw Spring Awakening together, and the show had like literally just opened, and I I believe it was our first time seeing it.

[49:17] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yes.

[49:18] Rob Russo: And it was I'll never forget afterwards we stayed at the stage door because you had you knew Lea Michele from Broadway Kids, right?

[49:25] Jenna Ushkowitz: Oh, actually from no, she wasn't in Broadway Kids, but she was on in Les Mis when I was in The King and I.

[49:31] Rob Russo: Ah, there you go.

[49:32] Jenna Ushkowitz: There you go. Yeah. And we stayed after, and we like said hi to her. And it was just so wild to think like three years later the two of you were on a TV show.

[49:40] Jenna Ushkowitz: I know. Well, I mean, I and I was in Spring Awakening shortly after that.

[49:45] Rob Russo: Right, exactly.

[49:46] Jenna Ushkowitz: Right. Forget about Glee. You were in Spring Awakening, right?

[49:49] Rob Russo: It's crazy.

[49:49] Jenna Ushkowitz: I was like, hey, guess what? Join your show.

[49:52] Rob Russo: Oh my gosh.

[49:53] Jenna Ushkowitz: And I booked, um, I booked uh uh Spring Awakening, I think it was January 2nd, and I left Spring Awakening on January 2nd. Um I booked and joined the cast on 2008, and then I left in January of 2009, just before I closed.

[50:07] Rob Russo: So did you do it with Hunter Parrish or did you do it with what you do it with?

[50:11] Jenna Ushkowitz: Um I did it with everybody. So I did it with um the original cast. Um right, you know, they had won the uh the Tony in July, right? June, July, and then I joined in January. And um, and then uh I had Hunter and Alexander Sosha and um the new cast like Emily Kinney and Caitlin Kinnunen and you know all those wonderful, wonderful artists.

[50:34] Rob Russo: Yeah, crazy.

[50:35] Jenna Ushkowitz: Amazing. Well, I can't wait to see how how many things we talked about today that will manifest themselves in the future and we'll just keep making connections.

[50:43] Rob Russo: Let's do it.

[50:44] Jenna Ushkowitz: Let's do it. Amazing. Thank you so so much for being so generous with your time.

[50:48] Jenna Ushkowitz: Yeah, this was so fun. Thank you.

[50:50] Jenna Ushkowitz: I'm just Michael in the bathroom.

[50:54] Jenna Ushkowitz: Michael in the bathroom at a party.

[50:58] Jenna Ushkowitz: No, you can't come in. I'm waiting in out till it's time to leave.

[51:06] Jenna Ushkowitz: And picking at grout as I softly grieve.

[51:11] Jenna Ushkowitz: I'm just Michael, who you know.

[51:13] Jenna Ushkowitz: Michael flying solo.

[51:16] Jenna Ushkowitz: Michael in the bathroom by himself.

[51:21] Jamie DuMont: Jamie here, that's our show. Thank you for listening. At this difficult time, please consider making a donation to the Actors Fund at ActorsFund.org. The Fabulous Invalid is a production of OM etcetera and the Fabulous Invalid LLC and a proud member of the Broadway Podcast Network. Our theme music is by Lucky Chops. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Charles Van Kirk. Find us online at the Fabulous Invalid.com and on social media at Fabulous Invalid and on iTunes, Spotify, and wherever you find your podcast. Be sure to tune in next Wednesday. Stay well and be safe.