This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:02] Ramin Karimloo: Hello and welcome to this week's hang.

[0:04] Ramin Karimloo: This week I am so honored and excited to be hanging with Kerry Butler.

[0:09] Ramin Karimloo: I can't believe in all the years I've been around in this industry, we've never crossed paths, but I'm so glad we did today.

[0:15] Ramin Karimloo: Kerry is one of a kind. Her energy is infectious. Her passion for the business and life and just being diverse in what she does as a person and an artist is so inspiring.

[0:28] Ramin Karimloo: I'm so glad we got to hang today. And fresh from taking her first directing job, you're gonna hear all about it here on the hang with Kerry Butler.

[0:38] Ramin Karimloo: You're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:42] Kerry Butler: Thank you!

[0:44] Kerry Butler: It's such an honor, first of all, and it's great to meet you.

[0:46] Ramin Karimloo: So nice to meet you. I can't believe we've never worked together before.

[0:49] Kerry Butler: Or even just cross paths.

[0:50] Ramin Karimloo: I know, I know. I was thinking that as I come out, I was like, I was kind of nervous because I was like, oh my god, I hope we didn't do a reading together, and then I say, and then right when you met me, you were like, it's so nice to meet.

[0:58] Kerry Butler: I was like, okay, phew, I know we need her.

[1:00] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[1:00] Kerry Butler: Are you fine?

[1:03] Kerry Butler: I'm at that age where I forget things. It's horrible.

[1:06] Ramin Karimloo: How do you feel about it?

[1:07] Kerry Butler: I love people, and I feel it, but we do so many little workshops that sometimes and people will be like, how's your daughter? And like, know her name. I'm like, oh my god, how do I not remember this?

[1:17] Ramin Karimloo: I know, and it's scary because even now if I'm learning new things, do you find I have to let go of the data to bring in new songs?

[1:25] Kerry Butler: Yeah, yeah.

[1:26] Kerry Butler: Oh, totally. I did a concert like two weeks ago, and someone shouted out, Sing Hi, Flying Adored. And I was like, what are the words? I've played Shay.

[1:31] Kerry Butler: No, it's gone because now Nikki Arnsteen had to go in. Somebody just I'm doing this little concert like next week, and somebody made a compilation of all the songs I've done from Broadway shows, and I'm listening to it.

[1:43] Kerry Butler: It was Laura Molina, actually. I don't know if you learned. But um, so I'm listening to it, and I'm like, oh, well, she got that wrong. I was never in that show. I don't know what song this is like for like five songs, and they were all songs.

[1:54] Ramin Karimloo: No.

[1:55] Kerry Butler: And I had no recollection of them.

[1:57] Ramin Karimloo: Well, to be fair, Kerry, you've done a lot of shows.

[2:01] Kerry Butler: I should remember, but I looked at your career, I was like, my lord, you've done so much.

[2:05] Ramin Karimloo: So have you. Come on, it's a fraction.

[2:07] Kerry Butler: No, no. And you've done some incredible things too.

[2:09] Ramin Karimloo: And we were just lucky. We were talking off camera how you originated Belle in Beauty and the Beast in Toronto.

[2:14] Kerry Butler: Yes, in Toronto.

[2:14] Ramin Karimloo: So talking about Canada and your love for Canada. You were there for what, two years?

[2:20] Kerry Butler: No, um I did it for a little bit less than a year, but it was so exciting.

[2:23] Kerry Butler: It was my first lead in a Rebbe show, and I just love Canada. I love the people, I love how it's not political or you know, it's just they're so kind.

[2:34] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[2:34] Kerry Butler: And it's a great city in Prince of Wales.

[2:37] Ramin Karimloo: Princess of Wales theater, you were that.

[2:39] Kerry Butler: Yeah, gorgeous.

[2:40] Ramin Karimloo: It's beautiful around that area.

[2:41] Kerry Butler: Yeah, and just an amazing experience for my first leading role.

[2:45] Ramin Karimloo: Can you imagine?

[2:46] Kerry Butler: Oh, no doubt, especially in such a it's a big old house as well.

[2:50] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, yeah.

[2:50] Kerry Butler: And who was your beast, Terrence?

[2:52] Kerry Butler: Um no, Chuck.

[2:53] Ramin Karimloo: Chuck Wagner, that's right.

[2:55] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[2:56] Kerry Butler: Because I didn't do it on Broadway. I originated the Toronto production.

[2:59] Ramin Karimloo: I didn't originate the Broadway production.

[3:01] Kerry Butler: So why is Terrence in my head?

[3:02] Ramin Karimloo: He did it here.

[3:02] Ramin Karimloo: Terrence originated on Broadway.

[3:04] Kerry Butler: Oh, okay.

[3:04] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[3:04] Ramin Karimloo: No, yes, Terrence originated on Broadway.

[3:06] Kerry Butler: Yes, yes, yes.

[3:07] Ramin Karimloo: And did you that's where I saw it.

[3:09] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[3:10] Kerry Butler: And I did it with Jeff McCarthy.

[3:13] Ramin Karimloo: Wow.

[3:14] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[3:14] Kerry Butler: That's amazing.

[3:15] Ramin Karimloo: So where do you begin with someone like you?

[3:19] Ramin Karimloo: I was thinking about it, like, what are we going to talk about? We could easily go through your resume, but I'm sure you've done that to death over and over again.

[3:27] Ramin Karimloo: So what can't coming up in my mind is someone you're still reinventing, you're still doing incredible things. You're you got many talents, but you know, you just finished doing Beetlejuice prior to that, MEAN GIRLS.

[3:41] Ramin Karimloo: And it's very much critically acclaimed. Where do you keep the passion? Where do you keep the inspiration? How do you keep that going? What is it that keeps you going?

[3:51] Kerry Butler: Yeah, those are great questions. Because these are things I've kind of worked with. These are things I'm feeling right now, especially after COVID.

[3:57] Kerry Butler: You know, we had that break during COVID, and then I felt so lucky to go back into Beetlejuice because it was like, you know, you weren't open before COVID, right?

[4:05] Ramin Karimloo: You opened during COVID.

[4:08] Kerry Butler: Well, that's I mean, you weren't you weren't open and then had to shut down immediately.

[4:12] Ramin Karimloo: No, that's right.

[4:12] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[4:12] Kerry Butler: So we had to shut down and it was like we thought we were gonna close for two weeks, and then it was like gone, you didn't get to say goodbye to anybody.

[4:18] Kerry Butler: So coming back was like this amazing experience, um, and also not working for two years to know like you're gonna get a paycheck again.

[4:26] Kerry Butler: Um, but it was so hard because I'm someone who like follows the rules, and so I would hide in my dressing room because I was so scared that I was gonna be the one who gives COVID to everybody and then has to shut down the show.

[4:39] Kerry Butler: Because somebody told me, I don't remember, but somebody told me like if because we had to switch theaters, it was so expensive, if COVID went through our cast and they had to shut down, like we would not open again.

[4:48] Kerry Butler: So it's like I carried this huge like pressure to not get sick. I would never did anything, so it wasn't as fun as I wish it was because I was so scared and I like didn't socialize with anybody.

[5:03] Kerry Butler: And I'm usually like really fun. I usually like organize all things backstage and Easter egg hunt in the theater and all this stuff.

[5:12] Kerry Butler: Yeah, I do.

[5:13] Kerry Butler: Um, and I did a little bit, but I didn't do as much as I normally do.

[5:18] Kerry Butler: And I hardly knew the new cast members, which I felt really bad about.

[5:21] Kerry Butler: So anyway, all of that to say that um it was great. I was so excited to be back on theater, but now, usually, you know, like I was involved with Beetlejuice for like seven years from the first reading to what and you that's what we have to do, right?

[5:34] Kerry Butler: We always like, oh well, maybe this one's gonna go, maybe this one's gonna go. And I don't have anything now.

[5:39] Ramin Karimloo: Seven years though.

[5:40] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[5:41] Kerry Butler: But it was easy because it was, you know, like a work reading here, you know, a workshop here.

[5:46] Kerry Butler: Um I think I think that's how long.

[5:49] Kerry Butler: I know I was in the first reading, and then we did a few workshops. I think it was that long.

[5:53] Kerry Butler: Um, and I did MEAN GIRLS in between there.

[5:56] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[5:56] Kerry Butler: But so I don't have anything now, and I'm kind of thinking, like, I don't know, I want to connect more with people now that we ha I haven't for three years, I wasn't allowed to, and I love teaching.

[6:08] Kerry Butler: And I just took my first directing job, directing Newsies in Florida.

[6:15] Ramin Karimloo: Really?

[6:15] Kerry Butler: Yeah, but it's with kids, and so I'm really excited about that.

[6:19] Kerry Butler: And I just thought, like, um, two people offered me directing jobs in like a matter of two weeks, and so I thought, okay, universe, I'm trying to figure out what I'm gonna do.

[6:28] Kerry Butler: Maybe I'm meant to do this, so I'll just say yes.

[6:30] Ramin Karimloo: Well, how why would they offer you that? Did you plant seeds that you wanted you to talk about?

[6:33] Kerry Butler: I don't know.

[6:35] Kerry Butler: I never thought about directing.

[6:37] Kerry Butler: You never even said never to anybody, never.

[6:40] Kerry Butler: It wasn't even in my head.

[6:41] Kerry Butler: Did you do that?

[6:42] Kerry Butler: The only thing is I directed my daughter over the summer.

[6:44] Kerry Butler: I direct my daughter and her friends in a show every single summer.

[6:47] Kerry Butler: And I take her from working, so I directed them in Beatles.

[6:49] Ramin Karimloo: You got around MEAN GIRLS.

[6:51] Kerry Butler: I even heard about that.

[6:56] Kerry Butler: They booked this for me.

[6:58] Ramin Karimloo: Social media is a powerful thing, you know.

[7:00] Kerry Butler: We all were watching it.

[7:01] Kerry Butler: It went viral.

[7:02] Kerry Butler: I did post about the show.

[7:04] Kerry Butler: I mean, it literally was seven kids and um Adam Maitland.

[7:08] Kerry Butler: We didn't have a boy for him, so we used to blow up doll.

[7:11] Kerry Butler: And I gave the girl all the rolls, all of his lines.

[7:15] Ramin Karimloo: He was just like, yes, and okay, so there's a lot I want to unpack there.

[7:18] Ramin Karimloo: I want to talk about okay, your brain as a director, because every now and then, like I'm about to go back into the Phantom world, and I feel like, oh, I want to put my ore in creatively as well.

[7:30] Ramin Karimloo: But I'm like, I want to stay in my lengths. I don't know if they want to hear from me.

[7:32] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[7:33] Ramin Karimloo: But I'm finding myself wanting to have those conversations too.

[7:36] Ramin Karimloo: So I'm like, do I want to direct?

[7:38] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[7:38] Kerry Butler: Where do you begin?

[7:39] Kerry Butler: Where do you you get your script, you have ideas?

[7:42] Kerry Butler: What do you know about staging, sets?

[7:44] Kerry Butler: Lighting.

[7:45] Kerry Butler: I'm just hoping.

[7:46] Kerry Butler: You're making it up as you go?

[7:47] Kerry Butler: I don't, yeah, I am.

[7:48] Kerry Butler: I mean, I'm watching like direct I'm watching Ron Howard's directing master class.

[7:52] Kerry Butler: Brilliant.

[7:53] Kerry Butler: Good place to.

[7:54] Kerry Butler: But yeah, I mean, I feel like I've worked with so many directors that I feel like I'll know.

[7:58] Kerry Butler: For sure I'll know the acting part, for sure I'll know the staging, because I'm sure you've worked with some directors who don't know how to work with actors, and you end up like staging stuff yourself and talking to them about your motivation and stuff like that.

[8:10] Kerry Butler: So I feel like that will come easy.

[8:11] Kerry Butler: The technical stuff is uh what I'm really a little bit worried about, but you know, it's a little theater in Florida, they're gonna help me.

[8:18] Ramin Karimloo: So well, I guess you also assemble a team that

[8:18] Kerry Butler: Yes, that knows what they're doing.

[8:22] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, and I'll trust them.

[8:23] Kerry Butler: And you kind of give a vision.

[8:24] Kerry Butler: This is what I'm looking for.

[8:25] Kerry Butler: How do you think we can get that?

[8:26] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[8:27] Ramin Karimloo: Then your lighting designer can say, Well, why don't we do this? or your choreographer.

[8:31] Ramin Karimloo: So when you talk about directors who are, you know, he's uh he's an they are uh uh actor's director.

[8:38] Kerry Butler: Uh huh.

[8:39] Ramin Karimloo: As an artist, as someone on stage telling the story, how do you want to be directed?

[8:43] Ramin Karimloo: Do you want someone talking to you about motivation, backstories?

[8:47] Ramin Karimloo: Do you want to build that with said director, or do you want to just come to the party with this is what I'm doing?

[8:54] Kerry Butler: What's my boundaries?

[8:56] Kerry Butler: Yeah, I think it depends on the role in the show, right?

[8:59] Kerry Butler: Like, 'cause some some like Hairspray, for instance, um, I kind of made that part completely my own.

[9:06] Kerry Butler: Like so much of it wasn't on the script, and they just gave me freedom.

[9:09] Kerry Butler: Also because I'm secondary character, so they really need to focus.

[9:12] Kerry Butler: They needed to do all that work with Marissa and Harvey.

[9:15] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[9:16] Kerry Butler: And so it's kind of fun when and then and then they were like, Oh, I like what you're doing there.

[9:20] Kerry Butler: They're and then they write it into the script.

[9:23] Ramin Karimloo: I like that too.

[9:23] Ramin Karimloo: Because when the attention's not on you're like, I can try this.

[9:26] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[9:26] Kerry Butler: I'm gonna go do this now.

[9:27] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, yeah.

[9:28] Kerry Butler: So I like that, but then when you have a really hard role and you really need guidance, you really need somebody else to tell you what's working, what's not working.

[9:39] Kerry Butler: I feel like that is almost even more in like straight print plays and things like that.

[9:44] Ramin Karimloo: So in roles like Hairspray or MEAN GIRLS, you did three parts, yeah.

[9:49] Kerry Butler: Do you you you strike me as someone who likes to play?

[9:51] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[9:52] Ramin Karimloo: With your energy, I'm gathering it even in this first five, ten minutes.

[9:56] Ramin Karimloo: How do you self-monitor yourself where it's like that was too much fun?

[9:59] Ramin Karimloo: Or I overset the boundary here.

[10:01] Kerry Butler: Like, do you look sure I direct I I trust the director for that?

[10:03] Kerry Butler: And like especially that's a great example because when I was Miss George, I was like, Oh my god, like way over the top, and Casey would sometimes be like, I love it, just bring it down a notch, you know.

[10:16] Ramin Karimloo: Well, that's good.

[10:17] Ramin Karimloo: So you are because sometimes this is probably a validation for myself.

[10:20] Ramin Karimloo: I like I'll keep going until I'm told not to.

[10:22] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[10:23] Kerry Butler: Because I'm like, We'll try a hundred percent.

[10:24] Kerry Butler: And in my head, I'm trying to serve the piece.

[10:26] Ramin Karimloo: Right, and it's also you don't want to steal focus from like the main thing that's happening, and you don't know when you are and when it's something the audience is loving.

[10:33] Kerry Butler: But when you have a little free-for-all, I want to keep going to just you know, I like to try things.

[10:38] Kerry Butler: I don't like to necessarily not follow my instinct and have a cookie cutter performance every day.

[10:45] Ramin Karimloo: A hundred percent.

[10:45] Ramin Karimloo: That's what I don't want.

[10:47] Kerry Butler: Okay.

[10:47] Kerry Butler: That's great to meet you.

[10:49] Ramin Karimloo: Yes.

[10:49] Ramin Karimloo: You've I've had those experiences where it's like this is what you and also like even like this is what you have to do.

[10:49] Ramin Karimloo: You have to do this, you know.

[10:57] Kerry Butler: And so I would rather I would rather less direction and when it counts.

[11:03] Ramin Karimloo: Okay.

[11:04] Ramin Karimloo: And especially in the beginning, I would want less because I would want to find it myself and so it comes from me and then kind of be guided after that.

[11:13] Kerry Butler: Right.

[11:13] Kerry Butler: That's why I love about rehearsals too.

[11:15] Kerry Butler: I tend to I really want to show up as best I can almost off book.

[11:20] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[11:21] Kerry Butler: So then you can play every day.

[11:22] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[11:23] Kerry Butler: And then make, you know, adjustments and whatnot.

[11:25] Kerry Butler: It's tricky though, because sometimes when I'm off book, then I feel like I have my line reading stuck in my head.

[11:29] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[11:29] Kerry Butler: So it's a little bit tricky, but you have to just try not to do that.

[11:32] Ramin Karimloo: But then I uh you seem responsive to what you're gonna get as well, right?

[11:35] Kerry Butler: For sure, for sure.

[11:36] Kerry Butler: I love that process.

[11:37] Ramin Karimloo: Me too.

[11:38] Ramin Karimloo: That's what I was thinking.

[11:39] Ramin Karimloo: I was like, rehearsal's my favorite part of the process.

[11:41] Kerry Butler: So maybe I'll love being a director.

[11:43] Ramin Karimloo: I don't know.

[11:44] Kerry Butler: Or maybe I'll hit it.

[11:45] Ramin Karimloo: So did you?

[11:46] Kerry Butler: I didn't do it yet.

[11:47] Ramin Karimloo: Oh, when is it?

[11:48] Kerry Butler: It's it's coming up in October.

[11:51] Kerry Butler: I just I just said yes to doing it.

[11:53] Kerry Butler: They just like announced it that I'm doing it.

[11:54] Ramin Karimloo: So what's what have you done so far?

[11:56] Kerry Butler: You've been watching Ron.

[11:57] Kerry Butler: Yeah, all I've been watching all I've done so far is watching Howard.

[12:00] Kerry Butler: You've listened to the cast album.

[12:01] Kerry Butler: I know I know the show, I know the themes, but but I I can't even get the script because they don't get the script, they don't until it's like really close to the actual production.

[12:11] Kerry Butler: So I'm gonna have to try and figure out how to get the script ahead of time so I can like dig in.

[12:15] Ramin Karimloo: Is this one of those one week runs or one week?

[12:17] Kerry Butler: No.

[12:18] Kerry Butler: I feel like maybe it's I don't I actually don't even know.

[12:22] Kerry Butler: Where in Florida is it?

[12:23] Kerry Butler: Um Sarasota.

[12:24] Kerry Butler: It's called Rise Above.

[12:26] Ramin Karimloo: I thought it was Arizona.

[12:27] Kerry Butler: Yeah, me too.

[12:27] Kerry Butler: I love the West Coast of the Captain.

[12:28] Kerry Butler: And my family lives right there.

[12:29] Kerry Butler: So I'm gonna do that.

[12:30] Kerry Butler: Yeah, I'm gonna stay in my parents' house and I'll get to visit with them, so it'll be nice.

[12:34] Ramin Karimloo: I wanna live in Longboat Key, Florida.

[12:36] Kerry Butler: That's beautiful.

[12:37] Kerry Butler: It's gorgeous there.

[12:37] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, yeah.

[12:38] Kerry Butler: Oh, I'm gonna have to come down and see this.

[12:40] Ramin Karimloo: So you're dy direct.

[12:41] Ramin Karimloo: Well, this is your second director.

[12:43] Kerry Butler: Oh, right, the backyard.

[12:44] Kerry Butler: Yeah, the garage, our garage.

[12:46] Ramin Karimloo: You nervous?

[12:47] Kerry Butler: Um you see more excited.

[12:49] Kerry Butler: I'm more excited, I would say.

[12:51] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[12:52] Kerry Butler: It's not like a big pressure thing, I feel like, and most of these are kids.

[12:57] Ramin Karimloo: So I'm probably gonna know more than that.

[13:00] Kerry Butler: Yeah, I'm sure.

[13:01] Kerry Butler: It's gonna be and you're gonna have people around you.

[13:03] Ramin Karimloo: Yes.

[13:04] Ramin Karimloo: So then where else I wanted to dive into, you mentioned about Beetlejuice being seven years.

[13:08] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[13:09] Kerry Butler: So you were literally got the from day one.

[13:11] Kerry Butler: Yeah, the first reading.

[13:15] Ramin Karimloo: I bet the ink wasn't dry off the first draft.

[13:17] Kerry Butler: No, yeah, we changed it so much since then.

[13:19] Ramin Karimloo: How much input did you have in that?

[13:21] Kerry Butler: A lot. Um, I mean, it was they knew who the character was right away. But um, I would say I usually like to trust the writers. I think the writers are really smart almost all the time. And I don't give my input until we're kind of farther along. Sometimes I might say, you know, if a scene isn't working or a song isn't working, something like that. But most of the big strokes I leave to them. And then like when I'm in front of an audience, then I can really feel what's working and not not working. And so I have in two shows, I've given up my solo song because I've said, you know, I have to have my eye on the whole piece, and I don't want to give up my song, but I know it's not working. I know it's not serving the piece.

[14:06] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[14:08] Kerry Butler: And so that happened in Beetlejuice, and they turned it into a duet, and it worked out much, much, much better.

[14:15] Ramin Karimloo: Oh, that's good.

[14:16] Kerry Butler: But what's interesting is we they changed it from DC to New York to this other song that all was also duet. I loved it. We were doing it in our final workshop. We get to the theater, it's in tech. We're about to be in front of an audience, and they called me into the office and and um, or like the lobby, actually. And they're like, we have to show you something. I was like, I'm like, oh my god, what am I getting fired? No one's happening. And um uh they were like, we have this idea for this other song, and we want you to listen to it before we even think of it. And I'm like, but we didn't even do the other one in front of an audience yet. You don't want to just try that one out. So they played it for me, and I was like, okay, it's great. So yeah, let's try it. So we blocked it in the lobby of the theater and then put it in in tech rehearsals. I mean, in our first preview, because we were already in tech.

[15:06] Ramin Karimloo: So how many how long did you did they have to get it ready?

[15:10] Kerry Butler: Well, he, I guess they had been writing it without telling us.

[15:13] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[15:13] Kerry Butler: And they so they showed me it while we were in tech while we were about to start previews. And so the first preview we did it with this new song that we never did in a run-through.

[15:22] Ramin Karimloo: Wow.

[15:23] Kerry Butler: Don't you love tech?

[15:24] Ramin Karimloo: I do love tech. I think it's exciting. I don't think I've had many curveballs like that. The worst is when you you've learned a song and it's it's set and it's going, but they'll like maybe alter two or three lyrics.

[15:35] Kerry Butler: Oh, yeah. I'd rather a bigger change in that.

[15:38] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, yeah, that's really tricky. Alex Brightman's like crazy good with that.

[15:42] Kerry Butler: I don't know.

[15:43] Ramin Karimloo: I hear he's pretty uh Yeah.

[15:45] Kerry Butler: I mean, that would drive that would drive me. I would have to be in my dressing room just going over those few lines because the once the song is stuck in your head, it's so hard to rememorize something else.

[15:54] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[15:55] Kerry Butler: So looking at your career, you talk you've done all a lot of fun stuff, a lot of like high octane energy. Have you ever dived into the sort of darker passenger roles, you know?

[16:06] Kerry Butler: Yeah, yeah. I I did um a play called The Call at Playwright's Horizon, and um it was about um adopting from Ethiopia, which I did.

[16:15] Ramin Karimloo: I saw I read that, yeah.

[16:17] Kerry Butler: Yeah, and so that was really yeah, and so it was really moving to be able to tell that story, even though it wasn't my story, it was similar to my story. And something I'm very passionate about.

[16:25] Ramin Karimloo: What came first, the adoption or your the play?

[16:27] Kerry Butler: My adoption came first.

[16:29] Ramin Karimloo: So how'd you find that process?

[16:31] Kerry Butler: You know, they always you all want to conduit to a character, but then there's sometimes you don't want to too much of yourself because the story is like as you say, is not you. How do you find that balance?

[16:39] Kerry Butler: It was hard. You know, it's so funny. I end up throwing out my back because it's so emotional. The play was so emotional, and it just brought back all of that anxiety about, you know, are you getting your child? Are you not and and uh so you know it was very personal, but yeah, she was a different person. But yeah, I definitely drew from my own experience, and they were very receptive to hearing, you know, my own journey. Um I think it always has to come from yourself, right? And then we just start. We always and then we just layer things. But I would say that was well, she was different than she was a different person than me. Um, but it's so interesting how our characters affect us because she was an artist and now I'm obsessed with art. And and so I feel like I take something from every character I play.

[17:26] Ramin Karimloo: I'm gonna come back to the art in a second. Just to tie into what we spoke about before, how were those conversations with the director? Was that different process for you?

[17:32] Kerry Butler: Yes, or again, because you had so much of it.

[17:34] Kerry Butler: Yes. Um she the writer also adopted s from from Ethiopia. So it wasn't her story either, but she drew from her own personal experience. So it was different. I mean, very different from musicals theater, because it was a lot of talking, a lot of conversations. And and you know, for me, I'm like, aren't we gonna like do it? Yeah, yeah. Um, so in that, but but yes, exciting and collaborative and hard. Cause and and um our director, Lee Silverman, she she was like, Carrie, you really um are like one of the least um wait, I'm gonna not egotistical, but um vain, because I'll let my because I let myself get really ugly because that was an ugly time, that kind of um vulnerability and ang how how um that manifests itself, that anxiety can come out as anger because it the stakes are so high. This dream of having a child, and then maybe it not happening.

[18:41] Ramin Karimloo: So, how long was that run?

[18:43] Kerry Butler: Um, it was a few months, I think.

[18:46] Ramin Karimloo: Your body must have been wrecked.

[18:47] Kerry Butler: It was, it was I can't believe that that um just your emotions are so connected to your body. I'm finding that more and more now, too, how my body's reacting to emotion stress, obviously fatigue is self-explanatory, but our bodies are uh connected to our emotions, yeah, right. And I feel like especially over the last sort of two years, three years as we're readjusting ourselves, my body's been pretty beat up.

[19:16] Ramin Karimloo: Same.

[19:16] Kerry Butler: And I'm like, but I'm doing less.

[19:19] Ramin Karimloo: I'm not aging, yeah.

[19:21] Kerry Butler: It's not about being older.

[19:22] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, that's what I keep telling myself.

[19:23] Kerry Butler: Yeah, I know that's the same thing too. I'm like, I'm so tired. Like, like I don't know if I could do another Broadway show right now.

[19:30] Ramin Karimloo: How'd you find doing eight shows a week?

[19:32] Kerry Butler: Because why this is the first time in my life I'm going by the time I get to the eighth, I'm like, I feel like I've done 12.

[19:37] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. Grateful?

[19:38] Kerry Butler: Yes. Don't get me wrong, but I'm like, I never used to feel it so much.

[19:43] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[19:43] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Are we getting older?

[19:45] Ramin Karimloo: Probably.

[19:46] Kerry Butler: But also it could have been, you know, two years of not doing anything.

[19:49] Ramin Karimloo: We're not tour fit.

[19:50] Kerry Butler: That's what it is.

[19:51] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[19:52] Kerry Butler: Yeah. I'll I'll let's let's let's start. And there's still so all the testing that we would have to do, all the it's so stressful. It's like extra stress in addition to doing the eight shows a week. I feel like are you still testing all the time?

[20:03] Kerry Butler: We've just stopped.

[20:04] Ramin Karimloo: So nice.

[20:05] Kerry Butler: And it's not, it's and it's the first time I'm now seeing people maskless. And I'm like, So that's what you look like. A year into the run. It's so weird. I'm meeting them for the first time again. I'm like, huh, that's what you look like.

[20:15] Ramin Karimloo: True.

[20:16] Kerry Butler: You never know.

[20:16] Ramin Karimloo: I know.

[20:17] Kerry Butler: Same thing. It just give me a double take every now and then. I'm like, hey, buddy.

[20:21] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, how you doing?

[20:22] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Um, art, artists, you it's you're the art side.

[20:26] Ramin Karimloo: Yes, I've got it. That inspired you. What kind of art?

[20:30] Kerry Butler: I love watercolor and I'm just I'm doing acrylics now. I paint all flowers.

[20:35] Ramin Karimloo: Really?

[20:36] Kerry Butler: Yeah. I love it. I could like, it's the only way I feel like I could lose myself and lose sense of time. And I'm not particularly good, but I just love it.

[20:43] Ramin Karimloo: Well, it's not about that. It's about expressing yourself, right?

[20:45] Kerry Butler: Yeah. And I just, you know how addictive your phone is and social media is. I feel like and it it got me through COVID. You know, I just it's just so relaxing to me. I love it so much.

[20:57] Ramin Karimloo: So when you got inspired to do that, had you dabbled with art before?

[21:02] Kerry Butler: I did when I was little, and I I forgot that I used to do my my parents actually they were on my podcast, and um they were like, We were really worried about you when you were little because you would log yourself in your room and just draw pictures all the time and never didn't have any friends And they were they were really worried about me.

[21:20] Ramin Karimloo: Well it all worked out.

[21:22] Kerry Butler: It works out, yeah.

[21:22] Ramin Karimloo: So what do you do with the art?

[21:24] Kerry Butler: Um sometimes I auction it off for charity.

[21:26] Ramin Karimloo: Nice.

[21:27] Kerry Butler: Um, but most of it now, or I'll I'll actually give a lot of it away, like cards to friends for birthdays, things like that. Um but now it's mostly just sitting around my house. I I should do something more with it.

[21:36] Ramin Karimloo: I s I sell them at the Broadway Cares flea market.

[21:40] Kerry Butler: Do you?

[21:41] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. And do you is this on your Instagram?

[21:43] Kerry Butler: It's not really because I haven't I mean I post sometimes the pictures I do, but it's really for me. But but maybe I should do more with it. We'll see.

[21:50] Ramin Karimloo: Do you try and do this as and when you feel it, or do you set specific times in the week like this time for me to when I start getting in a bad mood, I'm like, oh, you did not paint at all for the past few days.

[22:02] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[22:03] Ramin Karimloo: So that's your equivalent of journaling.

[22:05] Kerry Butler: Yeah. That's lovely. I want to see some of this.

[22:08] Kerry Butler: I'll show you.

[22:09] Ramin Karimloo: I'll show you after.

[22:10] Kerry Butler: So we talk about charities. Uh and we spoke a little bit about this off camera because it's something I want to start looking at more and not arbitrarily.

[22:19] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[22:21] Ramin Karimloo: Just being yes, yes, yes, because you want to uh be passionate about it too, you know.

[22:25] Kerry Butler: Right. What's connect do you have certain ones you're always connected to or because we talked, I know you want to help with the younger folk.

[22:32] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. Whenever I talk to schools, you know, on acting, I always say, try and volunteer if you can, because this business is just so hard. You know, your self-worth is about whether you're working or not working. And if you have something else that bring makes you feel worthy, then it won't beat you up as much. The rejection won't hurt as much.

[22:57] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[22:57] Kerry Butler: So I've been kind of volunteering my whole life. Now that I have kids, it's much harder. I don't do it as much. Um, but when I was um younger, before I had kids, my favorite one that I did was um there was this program because I really have a heart for foster kids, and so I like to do stuff that's not connected to theater most of the time, just because that's kind of you know my job. And I want to have other things. But so I had this job where I would um there was this program for keeping families together instead of putting trying to get kids not to go into foster homes. And I was like sort of a social workers assistant, and we would go into all these homes and help the families be able to not lose their children.

And sometimes, you know, those social workers are really they're overloaded with cases. And so I would get assigned families and I would just have to go there and like play with kids or make sure they have food in the fridge, make sure the parents are doing the things that they had to do. And I had a lot of time back then. Um, so I would go like three times a week, and one of the families I'm still friends with, and the girl is like twenty two now, and she comes over to my house for the holidays and everything.

[24:08] Ramin Karimloo: And that's amazing.

[24:09] Kerry Butler: It's like an extended family.

[24:10] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, yeah.

[24:11] Kerry Butler: And I just it would I never had a love for something as much as theater as when I was doing social work. And so sometimes I think maybe I should go back to school, be social worker, but I don't know.

[24:20] Ramin Karimloo: I don't know, it's hard to know.

[24:21] Kerry Butler: And I was gonna say it, you're doing that work when you're serving. When you look for volunteer work, sometimes it's hard as you go because like you'll call these places and they you'll be like, Don't you want me to volunteer? They won't call you back.

[24:33] Ramin Karimloo: Well, that happened to me. I signed up for Thanksgiving here because I don't celebrate that. I was on my own. It was so hard to find something, and I found something, then they canceled it. I was like, Yeah.

[24:44] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[24:45] Ramin Karimloo: What do I do now?

[24:46] Kerry Butler: Do you know about New York cares?

[24:48] Ramin Karimloo: That's what it was with.

[24:49] Kerry Butler: Oh, that's oh, okay. Well, still there there's still great opportunities there. And I feel like you have to kind of experiment to find what your real passion is. Like there's you know, you can read to kids in um a housing, a homeless shelter, um, you can um all kinds of different things, or if you're more care more about the environment, you go to a beach and clean up at the beach. There's just lots of different opportunities, and I would say try a lot because it's hard to find the right fit sometimes. Don't give up.

[25:17] Ramin Karimloo: Well, that's something I'll dive back into because it's something I spoke with Jared from our show. He was on the podcast a couple weeks ago. Um, and by the time this goes out, it's probably been out. And he said about finding yourself in the service of others.

[25:34] Kerry Butler: I love that.

[25:34] Ramin Karimloo: I think I d I I think he thought someone said it, but I I re I came up in something I was reading soon after that, and I think Einstein said that, but I could be wrong. But I thought it's so true though, to because I I I feel like at 44, I'm more of a kid in a man's body than ever.

[25:49] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[25:50] Ramin Karimloo: You're still re-finding yourself or continuing to find yourself.

[25:52] Kerry Butler: I don't know which it is.

[25:53] Ramin Karimloo: Yes. And with our industry, and like, you know, I'm trying to podcast, I find myself, why do I podcast? Why did I decide to do this? You're an artist on stage, you're looking for TV work, but it's very self-serving. Yes. But that's our shop front, right? But at some point I want to close for business, I'm going to go do something else. And I think maybe that that is the answer is in service of others. And it's probably connected to something that you love, something you're passionate about.

[26:22] Kerry Butler: And if you meditate on it, I feel like opportunities will suddenly come to you. Just like the directing thing, how I didn't even know, and I was just putting it out there, like I want it, I know I want to do something else. And I don't know if I'm gonna love doing it, but I just said yes, even though I have no idea what I'm gonna do. And so I feel like opportunities will come to you. Um, what other stuff do you love to do?

[26:46] Ramin Karimloo: I've been so busy just doing the do it. That's the problem. Sometimes we get so busy doing things that we think we should be doing. My therapist asked me the same question. What is it you want?

[26:55] Kerry Butler: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Who knew this was gonna turn into a therapy session? Well, like yourself, I do like it's uh it's all art related. I do like to draw, I like to read, I like to travel, I like to I love traveling. But then I still feel like is that how is that serving us?

[27:11] Ramin Karimloo: Right, right. But I've learned with what we do, which gave me another bolt of energy for what we do, there's a service in that too.

[27:20] Kerry Butler: Sure. Because for some reason, at times I don't know if through your career have you thought, like you just said, what uh what else can I do?

[27:28] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[27:28] Kerry Butler: And this director thing came up, or you know, you serve with your charities. Every time I think about that, like I've had that several times for my career, I'm like, maybe it's time for something else.

[27:37] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[27:37] Kerry Butler: Yeah. I think that's good. Suddenly you're doing another show or something comes in. But it's good to always have that moment of surrender that you can give it up if you can let it go.

[27:47] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[27:48] Kerry Butler: So then you're not that desperate person that I have to get it. If I I'm nothing if I don't do it.

[27:54] Ramin Karimloo: It's correct. And that's what I found, which gave me the energy. I'm like, well, every time you've I've surrendered, I found something has come up, whether it's Funny Girl or some other things that are on the table now. I'm like, well, maybe that's a way to serve still because art is important.

[28:10] Kerry Butler: Yes. There is an audience 100%. And there's an audience who want to come to these things. I know it's expensive. So it's like amazing that it's we're able to do this, especially like look at Funny Girl. So I'm very grateful that they're full houses. But I think we'll use that as a service as well. I know we're getting paid. I know it's yeah a career which I'm so amazed that I still get to do, but maybe treat it like a service too, because art's important. We want people to for two, three hours to surrender as well.

[28:40] Ramin Karimloo: Yes. I do think like I said this to you before. I always thought my purpose was backstage and not on stage, because I felt like we get so much, we're so lucky, you know, like how many people wish they could be doing what we're doing on stage. And so I feel like that's the reward for me. And so like our conversation right now, I felt like that's my purpose to give to other people backstage because so many actors are just broken and wrapped up in this business, because it's so hard.

[29:14] Kerry Butler: Um, but now, like doing Beetlejuice this time, I never felt more on purpose doing the show, I have to say. Because our country is so divided, and to have an audience of, you know, different people from different religions, different backgrounds, different political beliefs, all come together and laugh at the same time, cry at the same time, that is what we need more than anything right now.

[29:39] Ramin Karimloo: I agree. So I do feel like you are serving a purpose in that way.

[29:43] Kerry Butler: Well, that makes me feel better. I do agree with that too. I think with what we do, our door should be an open door policy because we gotta have less disenfranchisement and more unity. After all, this country of yours is called the United States, and you want more unity, right?

[30:00] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, yeah. And we're still, you know, there's still a lot of healing. I'm finding well we find it with ourselves in as individuals. So I'm not special. Everyone's going through a lot of similar things too.

[30:12] Kerry Butler: Yeah, and you know, your background is so unique. You know that you grew up in Canada and Iran, right?

[30:18] Ramin Karimloo: I was born in Iran, yeah.

[30:19] Kerry Butler: And then England. So maybe you're meant to be a peacemaker. Maybe you're meant to use your social media as a peacemaker.

[30:26] Ramin Karimloo: I think I've caused less peace at times, but yeah.

[30:28] Kerry Butler: Well, maybe sometimes you need to not cause peace to make peace.

[30:32] Ramin Karimloo: Okay, I'll remember that.

[30:35] Kerry Butler: That's true. And I'm trying to have a different relationship with social media too, because I know. And again, again, you talk about okay, well, how can we be of service? And I think, all right, well, we sing, we perform. I'll use that as an extension, as a smaller stage of people want to do that. I think the troubling part is that what do we do when we're not doing that? You know, because so much of our time is not doing that. And then does our identity collapse? Because like, you know, I don't have any I'm not singing for anybody now.

[31:05] Ramin Karimloo: No, but performing.

[31:07] Kerry Butler: But there's is there a difference between your public identity to your personal identity, to who you are as a in your family? Because there's singles to show that online.

[31:15] Ramin Karimloo: No, oh yeah, I'm not talking about online. I'm just talking about like our purpose if it's whether it's you know, just wrapped up in performing and singing.

[31:23] Kerry Butler: No, I can't be just that night, I can't. I don't identify like I'd like to think who I am as a person, what defines me acting is not that.

[31:33] Ramin Karimloo: Right.

[31:34] Kerry Butler: But don't you feel like a lot of people do?

[31:36] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[31:37] Kerry Butler: But that's also what I've shown what I show them online. So I it doesn't bother me because I'm like, well, that's what I've offered. Um, but like with social media, I kind of want to use YouTube for a certain thing, Instagram for certain things, and then the other one's just more for it's like for me, it's a business tool.

[31:53] Ramin Karimloo: Totally promotion thing.

[31:55] Kerry Butler: But I've taken comments off where I can because I'm like, I don't do it for comments. I don't do what we do all night to get feedback. I do it because I love it. So we'll just keep offering it as and I don't need the comments because one also it stops me scrolling and now I can just post and walk away and it is what it is.

[32:11] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah.

[32:12] Kerry Butler: And then I found now I'm having more fun doing that.

[32:15] Ramin Karimloo: Good.

[32:15] Kerry Butler: And gives me more energy, gives me more less wasting time. Cause a lot of it can be entertaining too. And I'm like an hour later, I'm like, I've been on this thing for an hour.

[32:25] Ramin Karimloo: I know. But you know, it's finding that balance, but we're still finding our feet.

[32:30] Kerry Butler: Mm-hmm. So you podcast.

[32:32] Ramin Karimloo: I do, yes.

[32:33] Kerry Butler: Breaking Broadway.

[32:34] Ramin Karimloo: Yes, yes, yes.

[32:35] Kerry Butler: Because um, I don't know if you get this, but my biggest question I get asked on Instagram or all the time at the stage door or whatever, was how can I make it to Broadway? You know, and so I made a whole podcast filled with tips for people on how to make it Broadway.

[32:48] Ramin Karimloo: Amazing.

[32:53] Kerry Butler: Yeah, I have a new season coming out, and that's kind of that's the third season, right? And it's um how do we do eight shows a week? So I have, you know, I have and I don't get like my famous friends. I kind of get people with interesting stories that I I think like I have my um the person who teaches me Pilates. She's from France and she wants to be a dancer on Broadway. And it's just like interesting to me. And she's helping she helped me, and she's getting over an injury, so I think she can help people, you know. But I do have I have Angie Shore on, you know, dancer extraordinaire who's been in millions, too. So I kind of bounce it, balance it out that way. So that was a great reason to start.

[33:34] Ramin Karimloo: And are you enjoying it?

[33:35] Kerry Butler: Yeah, yeah. I do really like it actually. When you podcast and set up a season, do you have a certain amount like I'm doing six, I'm doing twelve?

[33:44] Ramin Karimloo: No, I kind of like let it take me where it takes me.

[33:48] Kerry Butler: Until you're busy too. I mean, I feel like I have maybe eight episodes this time for the season, and that's good.

[33:56] Ramin Karimloo: How long is each podcast last?

[33:59] Kerry Butler: Um, half hour to an hour, I would say.

[34:01] Ramin Karimloo: How long have we been going?

[34:03] Kerry Butler: Oh, we're doing okay.

[34:04] Ramin Karimloo: We're doing okay.

[34:05] Kerry Butler: And you're on the same network, Broadway Podcast Network, which I like because they can help edit it all up.

[34:11] Ramin Karimloo: For sure.

[34:11] Kerry Butler: Yeah. I used to do that my first few seasons, but boy, that takes a lot of work.

[34:15] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, no, I would not do that.

[34:17] Kerry Butler: No, but it was during the pandemic at time. It's like but then after a while, I was so tired of hearing my own voice and look at myself. I'm like, nope.

[34:24] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, they're very, very nice to me. They take good care of me.

[34:27] Kerry Butler: That's great. Let me ask a couple. See if we got some bang questions.

[34:30] Ramin Karimloo: Oh, supporters, I should say.

[34:32] Kerry Butler: Well, Xanadu.

[34:33] Ramin Karimloo: Mm-hmm.

[34:34] Kerry Butler: I just said you got any questions and um someone just Xanadu definitely something about Xanadu for sure. Um okay, Xanadu was the hardest show I ever did because I'm very uncoordinated. I'm like one of the most uncoordinated people that you will ever see. And I can't really dance, and I was on roller skates. I thought I was gonna die every night, and I took tons of lessons before we started, and um, but I really thought they were gonna fire me because I told Chris Ashley once we started, I was like, just so you know, I can't act because I'm still in my head, like push off on this foot, stop on this foot, and um, and I really so I really couldn't, and that I was also playing three characters, and um at after you know, it ended up he stuck with me, it ended up going great, and I joked with him after I was like, you know, I thought you were gonna fire me the whole time, and he's like, like deadpan. So he really, he actually was thinking about it. And I would even get skating lessons on my lunch break because I was so obsessed, like I couldn't do it. It was really hard.

[35:36] Ramin Karimloo: I'm glad I asked that. That's funny.

[35:38] Kerry Butler: And uh one more again, it's just a general ask of catch me if you can. I bet that was a lot of fun to work on.

[35:44] Ramin Karimloo: Oh my god, yes. Norbert, Aaron, so great. Love them. We got to go out of town together in Seattle. Um, and also working with the same team from Hairspray, Jack O'Brien.

[35:54] Kerry Butler: Oh, Jack, of course I did Love Never Dies.

[35:56] Ramin Karimloo: I think that oh, you did Love Never Dies with him. He's the best. I could listen to talk for hours. I used to want to record his his I mean talk about working with great directors. Yeah, like yeah. There was one where I'm like, we're just gonna sit and talk for half hour. Yeah, no problem. Yeah, his I mean he would give these motivational speeches that just and that's it. That's all the direction you needed. And it was about his experience, like life.

[36:16] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[36:16] Ramin Karimloo: Did he talk about how you live life in decades?

[36:19] Kerry Butler: He will our show, you know. Well, Hairspray, um, he would talk about how he was the protest affected him because he was, you know, lived through that, and uh how he was protesting and kind of the things he thought, yeah.

[36:30] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah, I remember him sitting down talking, like your twenties, you think you're something. And it's like where you make all your mistakes in 30s, you really start figuring out those mistakes and whatnot. 40s, you start driving your life. Really? 50s, you really start living your life. 60s, now the fun begins. I was like, Oh wow, all right. All right, we have something to look forward to.

[36:54] Kerry Butler: And I was in my 20s when you told me that story, and now in my 40s, I'm like, he's right. Because my decades have been so different.

[37:02] Ramin Karimloo: Yes, same. I feel like I've so much less pressure on myself now, too. You know, it's like, if I don't get on Broadway, who cares?

[37:10] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[37:11] Ramin Karimloo: And before I'd be like, I have to be in a show, you know. So then to finish off, like we you talked, you said a I love this phrase recently because I've been listening to a lot of Jay Shetty's podcast on purpose. And you said on purpose.

[37:22] Kerry Butler: Yeah.

[37:23] Ramin Karimloo: And I think just to wrap it up with how you do eight shows a week at this point, with all you've done, and you feel like I feel like you're still done your first Broadway job with your energy and your passion. But again, it's I guess it's what you just said. It's that surrender, that release, that less pressure on yourself. Uh-huh. Maybe that's the uh the sort of amalgamation of living your life in decades, where oh man, if if I could tell my 20-year-old self certain things. I mean, I just I do love it so much still. Every day I go on the stage door, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm going in a Broadway stage tour. You know, and and I do feel like I could be happy doing it anywhere in the country. Broadway's just a name. Like, if you know, if Broadway, if I grow out of Broadway, Broadway doesn't want me anymore, I'd be once my kids are grown, I'll be like doing community theater someplace, you know.

[38:17] Kerry Butler: See, I love that. I have that same mentality because I've been very blessed to like work Japan, Korea, Australia, England here. And I don't it the Broadway's not a goal. It's like, what's the show we're doing? Yeah, that's exciting. And if it happens to be somewhere great, like Japan, sign me up.

[38:37] Ramin Karimloo: Yeah. Someone tweeted me today about the fan. I'm like, why Trieste Day? And I just wanted to write back. Why not? Why not? That looks super exciting.

[38:46] Kerry Butler: Yeah. Why not? And it's never been there. Anyhow.

[38:50] Ramin Karimloo: Carrie, you're amazing.

[38:51] Kerry Butler: Oh, thanks.

[38:52] Ramin Karimloo: And I feel like oh I don't even know if we scratch the surface. I'm not I'm not sure I'm good at doing this, but I love doing it because I get to meet people like you. And I've been a student for you in in the last 40 minutes. So thank you so much.

[39:02] Kerry Butler: Thank you.

[39:03] Ramin Karimloo: So Breaking Broadway season three.

[39:05] Kerry Butler: Yes.

[39:06] Ramin Karimloo: I don't know when this will come out, but is it dot com?

[39:13] Kerry Butler: BroadwayPodcastNetwork.com.

[39:15] Ramin Karimloo: There you go. Just rolls off the tongue.

[39:19] Kerry Butler: All the best.

[39:20] Ramin Karimloo: Thank you.

[39:20] Kerry Butler: Thanks for having me.

[39:22] Ramin Karimloo: Thanks for the hang. That was so fun.