This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ken Davenport: I think the most important thing, and it's only one of many things, so it could be great, and everything else could be screwed up, but I think the most important thing is the book. If you don't have a good story, why does anybody really want to see it? I wanna be a producer with a hit show on Broadway.

[0:20] Ken Davenport: You're listening to the Producers Perspective Podcast with your host, Tony Award winner, Ken Davenport.

[0:27] Ken Davenport: We can build a beautiful city. Yes, we can. Yes, we're that's Hunter Parrish singing the beautiful, beautiful song, Beautiful City from my production of Godspell, which was general managed by today's guest, Charlotte Wilcox, who also gave me one of my very, very first jobs in the business. She's one of the most powerful general managers on the planet and has the most experience, I think, of many general managers combined. So you're gonna hear an incredible lesson in the business of Broadway today.

[1:05] Ken Davenport: Uh, we want to thank Curtain Call for sponsoring today's podcast with Charlotte. Curtain Call is the platform for all theater professionals on stage or backstage, creative or cast, producer or theater. It's free to join. All you need is an email address, then you can create your own profile. It's kind of like IMDB, so people can see who you've worked with, not just who you worked for, so you can network very easily and you can look for a gig. What's better than that? You can view and apply for jobs directly through the platform. So go to curtaincallonline.com to sign up. That's curtaincallonline.com to sign up. They also have an incredible Instagram page with awesome photography. It's very simply at curtain call. That's the Instagram handle at curtaincall. Do check them out and let them know that the producer's perspective podcast sent you.

[1:54] Ken Davenport: And now back to beautiful city and Hunter Parrish taking us into Charlotte's podcast. By the way, I don't think there's a better version of this tune out there. Go grab the recording. It's a good one. Lindy Lindsay Mendez, Telly the Young, a lot more. You can give up better and better. Or you can slowly start to build a beautiful city. Yes, we can. Yes, we can. We can build a beautiful city. Not a city of angels. But finally a city of man.

[3:01] Ken Davenport: My name is Ken Davenport, and if you are interested in the business of Broadway, you have picked the right episode to listen to. Today we are going to speak to what I believe you are the person with the most general management knowledge in the industry working today.

[3:18] Charlotte Wilcox: I can't believe that's true.

[3:20] Ken Davenport: I'm gonna say it is. I'm gonna say it is. To be here. So Charlotte is a powerhouse general manager. She's actually a recipient of a Tony Award for her excellence in the theater. She, how many shows have you general managed? Do you know this number?

[3:40] Charlotte Wilcox: I don't really know the number, but I recently did a list of everything for some panel I'm going to be on, and it was very long. I'd say over a hundred.

[3:51] Ken Davenport: Over a hundred shows. And I remember you telling me, have you done every Grease?

[3:57] Charlotte Wilcox: Yes, I've done every Grease, and I've said that I have to do one more before I can retire, and I think that's coming up in a couple of years.

[4:05] Ken Davenport: Not retirement, Grease.

[4:06] Charlotte Wilcox: Of course.

[4:08] Ken Davenport: It always so you literally did the original company to every revival.

[4:11] Charlotte Wilcox: On the original company, I was the production assistant. On the two revivals, I was the general manager.

[4:17] Ken Davenport: And that's where we met when I was the production assistant on My Fair Lady. You were the very first general manager that I worked for on that My Fair Lady revival in 19 Republican.

[4:26] Charlotte Wilcox: And that was the Richard Chamberlain revival.

[4:29] Ken Davenport: That's right. That's right. And then, of course, you general managed My Godspell. You've done everything out there on your feet. Beautiful, of course, you've taken all over the world. It's been an incredible career, and we're gonna hear all about it and all about your perspective because you have so much experience. So tell me first, if you were placing an ad in a classified newspaper today, if newspapers actually existed anymore, for a general manager, how would you describe the job?

[4:58] Charlotte Wilcox: I would describe the job as knowledge of finance, knowledge of people, um, the ability to multitask, because really you're not producing the show, but you are sort of producing the show. You're doing everything except raising the money and the creative elements. That's all the producer 100%. After that, you're really guiding everything. The producer will say who he wants to hire, or if he doesn't know, he or she doesn't know, you will, he or she or they doesn't know, you will give them suggestions, you'll then negotiate the contracts, write the contracts. So a law degree would be very helpful. I don't have one. An accounting degree would be very helpful, I don't have one. But those are there, it's a lot of paperwork, and when you're in production, it's a lot of hands-on. I always consider myself lucky because although I'm not involved in the creative, I get to witness it, and that's pretty exciting.

[6:00] Ken Davenport: We're gonna get to that in a bit because I'm very curious as to your creative instincts on shows. But the you raise an interesting point about having a law degree and an accounting degree. But do you think that if you had one of those, it would actually hold you back?

[6:14] Charlotte Wilcox: I find that general managers have to be very creative and have to sometimes draw outside those lines a little bit to get these things going.

[6:21] Ken Davenport: You know, that's interesting question, and I've never considered it, but you're probably right because I don't have those constrictions that those degrees might have given me. Um so I'd like it in terms of the knowledge, but not the restrictions, which I don't have. So you're right, it could be a problem.

[6:38] Ken Davenport: So, where did you learn all this stuff? If you don't have those degrees, how did you amass all this knowledge to be able to run these shows?

[6:44] Charlotte Wilcox: You know, I started 50 years ago as a secretary. There were secretaries then, and you learn by doing, and when you don't know, you ask. It's interesting. I recently had some younger managers approach me. They're going out on their own and wanting to know, you know, how do we, you know, know this, that, and the other thing. I said, You don't know it. If you know it, you know it, and if you don't know it, you know it. Hopefully, you're smart enough to know you don't know it, and then you've got to put in the time to research. There's really nobody you can call to ask the questions to, or maybe there's a million people you can call and ask the questions to. You need to know what the questions are.

So I did it just by doing it over and over. I was dogged in what I wanted to do. I was I went through a whole period and probably it was the 80s where I never went to the theater because I was so busy working. It didn't occur to me that going to the theater was part of the job. Um, so I missed a lot of great things then, whereas now I don't, and maybe there aren't as many great things now, but uh it's really just doing it. I you know, I would like to take a college course because now there are courses in theater management, which when I came through the ranks, there were not, and see what they teach and see if it has any value. I used to tell people, don't waste your time taking courses, get a job and do it.

So I always, whenever I produce a show or I'm thinking about producing a show, I always say, Oh, yeah, I'll produce that. I've done that before. I know how to do that, it'll be fine. And then of course it's never the same way as it was. There's always something new.

[8:12] Ken Davenport: Even with all the experience you had, do you find that every show is a little different than there's something about it you still don't know or have to figure out?

[8:22] Charlotte Wilcox: Yes. I mean, the bones of every show is the same, and the budget is the Bible. Uh, but on every show, there's some element that you've not dealt before. I can't imagine there's ever, whether it's a union issue or it's a creative issue, something comes up that you've never faced, and you have to figure out how do I want to handle this one.

[8:42] Ken Davenport: On a show like Beautiful, can you remember an example of something that made that one so unique and different?

[8:50] Charlotte Wilcox: You know, Beautiful was a dream. It was a challenge for everyone. I knew the minute I read the script that if the creative team didn't screw it up, it would be a huge hit. Really? I I used a word other than screw it up, but um I knew I and I never know. In fact, I don't read scripts well, but somehow this one I read it was a page turner, and it what ended up on the stage was very different than the first draft, but I knew the material was there, and everyone worked very hard. There were a lot of creative challenges. They just kept attacking, attacking, attacking until they solved it, and they came up with it. So it in a way it was easy. I can't think of anything that made it particular that I ran into that was, I guess there were a lot of things, but some of them I couldn't really discuss because they would not be, they might be good things to discuss.

But it basically it flowed. Um I think the now that the Broadway show is closed, but the tour is still out, it really is a non-equity route on an equity contract. And I look at these people and think, how do they do it? Uh a few weeks ago they did five cities in one week. Now I've never done a tour with five cities in one week, so I'm saying, how did I end up there? Uh but it's interesting, and and I'm learning a lot. Uh, and fortunately, I have a company manager who is so uh good at what she does and really catches things that I think if I were on that tour, I'd never have the time to catch. So it's that's sort of interesting. But the process of the show, I can't think of anything that was everyone worked together so well, and everything everybody was so happy to be there, and I think everybody smelled that this could be a hit.

[10:37] Ken Davenport: You mentioned something, you said the creative team attacked and attacked and attacked, and you've going to this witness idea of you witnessing so many new shows get created over the years. Is there something about a characteristic of a creative team that you can tell? Because that one wasn't the most experienced creative team on the planet. They hadn't—

[10:59] Charlotte Wilcox: No, they weren't.

[11:00] Ken Davenport: It was Mark Bruni's first Broadway directing gig, right? What about the creative team coming together on these shows separates them and you think are characteristics of a creative team that can turn something into a hit?

[11:16] Charlotte Wilcox: I think that partly it's the material, and sometimes it's the music, sometimes it's the book, but the material has to be there. Assuming you have the material, then it's is there someone in charge who understands the structure of a Broadway show? And that's what helped Beautiful become a big hit because Paul Blake, who had run the St. Louis Muni for years and years and years, and knew classic musical theater like The Back of His Hand, knew exactly what to tell the creative team when something wasn't working. Not writing it for them, but saying, here's the problem, here's what you have to focus on, here's what we've got to conquer to get beyond this. So that I think is the most important thing, and I think in today's world, very difficult to come by because many producers there's a handful of producers who really understand uh the structure of a show.

[12:06] Charlotte Wilcox: Many of them are fundraisers or, um, cheerleaders, etc. But understanding the structure and being able to guide it is important. The director needs to do that, but you need a producer on top of the director. And that's, uh, I think that's lacking in our business.

[12:21] Ken Davenport: That's a great point, and another reason why I have to nudge Paul to get on this podcast. We've been trying to figure out a date for a while. And Paul's a writer too, so that makes perfect sense.

[12:29] Charlotte Wilcox: Yes, okay. So going back to this ad idea, do you think that ad has changed for a general manager over the past 50 years? How is the position or how do what you do today differ from what you did then?

[12:47] Charlotte Wilcox: I, you know, it's funny when you ask that question, the negatives are what come up in my mind, and that there's you had handshakes in the old days and they worked, and still they pretty much always work. But you're always feeling like there's someone in the background. Um, if I write the contract this way, will that come back to bite me? Uh, the unions are so much more specific. You know, it's interesting. We started many years ago, I can't even remember how many, the labor committee at the Broadway League, because there was a lack in how management, uh, communicated with the unions, and there were a lot of issues on both sides, but the producing people really felt that they were being taken advantage, they were paying union members for jobs that didn't need to be done, etc. So we had a big challenge, and we worked hard.

We went through two strikes with two different unions in the early days of that labor committee, and now we're at the point that when we collectively bargain, there's not a lot to talk about because we pretty much corrected it. Yes, you could wipe it over and start wipe it out and start all over again, which actually probably is what it needs, but we're not there just yet. Um, but though those kind of issues take up a lot more time than they used to. A lot more arguing, a lot more discussing, a lot more looking at language because it wasn't written as clearly as it was meant to be. Uh, in addition, I think there's so many more government, uh, oversights, everything from overtime to harassment, which as a manager you have to be on top of and make sure that you're complying.

And sometimes you have the state and the city and their requirements are completely different. So how do you comply with that? Takes a lot of time, whereas in the old days you had none of that. Um, the financing used to be that if you have over so many investors, I don't even know what the figure is, you have to have, um, an audit done every year. And they can be very costly and they can be very time-consuming. Never happen. Now there's never a show on which it doesn't happen, at least not a musical, I don't know about plays. So it's a lot of those kinds of things. The creative work and the contracting work is basically all the same. It's just all these other things that have come into play. And they're, they're sort of not fun. Whereas, you know, the rest of the business is a lot of fun.

[15:17] Ken Davenport: What was the first show you generally managed on your own?

[15:20] Charlotte Wilcox: First show was Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. It was being managed by a man at Theater Now where I was an employee, and there was an older producer and two younger female producers, and they felt that the older producer only listened to the male general manager who was an older person also. And the male producer I had worked for for a long time on his Florida theaters, so he said to the girls, pick whoever you want, I'm happy. And they picked me.

[15:52] Ken Davenport: What year was this?

[15:53] Charlotte Wilcox: I have, uh, it was probably somewhere in like the early 70s.

[15:58] Ken Davenport: So I was gonna ask a different question, but now I have to go down this road, which is you are the general manager is this very important quote unquote business position. How was it getting into the business of Broadway as a woman at this era? Did you face roadblocks? Did you see challenges? Were you looked at differently by the old boys' club of theater owners or other businessmen?

[16:24] Charlotte Wilcox: I'm sure I was looked, no, I don't think I was looked at differently because I was doing the job. Um, I think that was just sort of accepted. Uh, I never felt any kind of discrimination, you know. But you that was a world in which it was de rigueur, so maybe I wouldn't have felt it. I once was at a conference and, uh, a woman was there and she said, I don't like the way your boss treats you. I said, Really? Why? You know, I thought he was very generous and, you know, paid me well, etc. She said, Well, you know, he asks you to get him his coffee, and I said, you know, I'm an assistant, that's part of what I was hired to do. So I didn't get, I didn't get it at all, but I never felt held back by anyone. I was often the only woman in the room, and that didn't really phase me. I was at that point also often the youngest person in the room. It just, it just, I just did the job. It didn't occur to me that there was anything there to rail against.

[17:22] Ken Davenport: That original production of Joseph, how much did it cost?

[17:25] Charlotte Wilcox: I have no idea because it was so long ago. Also, I didn't put it together, I inherited it. Do you remember what were the musicals or plays going for when you started the production budgets?

[17:37] Charlotte Wilcox: Oh boy. I don't remember. I have no idea. Anything in the, did they top a million?

[17:46] Charlotte Wilcox: No, I think they were under a million. Of course, a lot of the ones I was doing in the early days were taking shows that were on Broadway and putting them together to play the Zeb Buffman circuit in Florida. So that was much less expensive than putting a show on Broadway. I can't even remember what the first show I did on my own as opposed to inheriting it on Broadway was. Isn't that interesting? The cost.

[18:17] Charlotte Wilcox: The producer called me and it was looking like it was going to come in between 17 and 18 million and said, you know, the top producer would like to have it be a 20 million dollar show. And I'm thinking, really? I thought my job was to keep it low. You just added two to three million to what I was thinking. What was the reason?

[18:35] Charlotte Wilcox: Uh, because they wanted to have a huge, uh, figure for advertising.

[18:40] Ken Davenport: So that was my next question, actually, which is these budgets have grown astronomically. What are the top three places that you've seen the biggest growth in?

[18:53] Charlotte Wilcox: Well, advertising for sure, physical production. Like I saw last night Moulin Rouge. I'm dying to call the designer and ask what that cost. I, I, I mean, I feel like that alone was just the physical production was to cost 20 million. And then it's a conglomerate of little, every, a lot of little things. Uh, you know, the increases in the collective bargaining agreements, none of the actual employees, actors, stagehands, musicians, none of them get huge increases, but they get increases every year. And over the 50 years I've been doing it, I'm trying to remember what an actor's minimum was when I started, I don't even remember that, but it was probably like 600 bucks. Now it's what, maybe, uh, 1800, so it's changed. So it's, uh, all of those things put together. Plus it's, but I think mainly it's the physical production and the advertising.

[19:48] Ken Davenport: And from your perspective, dealing with advertising in so many shows, do you think having a bigger advertising budget actually can make the difference on a show?

[19:59] Charlotte Wilcox: I think it's very difficult to tell. Um, so much now is done online, and that seemed to be successful. We did on Beautiful a test. Uh, in the early days of the show, it was brought to our attention that when we were, when we had some kind of an ad on YouTube, the, um, sales skyrocketed. And of course, the ad agency that was handling traditional advertising didn't necessarily agree with that. It was two separate agencies. So we did a test where we spent a lot of money on that one six-week period and much lesser money in another six weeks period. It really, we definitely did better when we were spending on the larger sum on YouTube. However, there were a lot of other extenuating circumstances, time of year, etc. So the bottom line was it was very hard to tell if it really made that big a difference.

So I don't know, and I don't know how you do know because, you know, if you do that kind of test, you're not, you can't do it at the same time, or you can't test it, and if you don't do it at a different time, there are so many other factors that change it.

[21:09] Ken Davenport: What's the most important thing that you think makes up a hit on Broadway with all the shows you've seen?

[21:16] Charlotte Wilcox: I think the most important thing, and it's only one of many things, so it could be great, and everything else could be screwed up, but I think the most important thing is the book. If you don't have a good story, why does anybody really want to see it? Although I won't name names, but there are plenty of shows where there's no story, and they're still doing well over, you know, a million and a half a week, so I guess it all comes down to personal taste.

[21:44] Ken Davenport: How come you've never produced?

[21:46] Charlotte Wilcox: I never wanted to raise money, and I don't think that I ever saw myself as understanding the structure as Paul Blake does, let alone the material. I, I feel a little differently about that now. Uh, for years, you know, managers, their job is to handle logistics and money, not to have a creative opinion. So I didn't have creative opinions, and if I did, I certainly kept them to myself. So I didn't exercise that muscle. Uh, I think maybe it was on The Wedding Singer where I was out of town and the producer asked me a question, and I found myself pouring out exactly how I felt, thinking, oh my god, I don't think I should have said any of that. Now, uh, the producer didn't listen to me, although I do think ultimately, uh, thought that I was right, but just didn't feel that it was, uh, a change that was able to be made. So now I do have opinions and now I do voice them, even though the producer may not want to hear from them. And if they don't listen, that's fine.

[22:49] Ken Davenport: You've worked with hundreds of producers over the years. Who are your favorites?

[22:52] Charlotte Wilcox: No, no, I'm just kidding. Just kidding. Who are your least favorites? Just tell me that one.

[22:58] Charlotte Wilcox: I'd like to tell you that one too. What characteristics make up a great producer today? Like what do you think a great producer has or needs?

[23:08] Charlotte Wilcox: I think that, as I said earlier, it's the understanding of the structure, which most of them don't have, the ability to raise the money. The worst thing is to get into a show and find out the producer can't raise the money. So that sounds pretty basic, but it isn't always basic. Although I've been pretty fortunate in my producers in that they are real producers. So I feel pretty lucky in that.

[23:51] Charlotte Wilcox: And being able to just stick with it, be in the trenches. When it goes wrong, be willing to figure it out. What's the you have any crazy war stories of it going very, very wrong? And I'm sure I do, but I probably have blocked them out. I can't think of very, very many right at the moment. I'm sure I've had a million. I'm lucky I can remember the shows that I've done, Ken. Uh I remember years years ago there were there was a show that a company I was working for, I don't remember the name of the show, but it was being put on by a group of investors, Jews for Jesus.

[24:33] Ken Davenport: They had a show?

[24:34] Charlotte Wilcox: Yes. I didn't, I never got there. I think maybe 15 years later, somebody else brought it out and it lasted two minutes. But the that producer used to walk in with bags full of cash and you'd have to count it out and take it to the bank. And you know, you'd never get away with that in this day and age. Um, you have you have accidents that happen which are anticipated. I don't think I've had any serious ones. Um how do you stay calm through it all? You know, that's really the trick, and I think that that comes with age. I think when I was younger, I I think outwardly people thought I was calm. Inwardly, I was probably a mess, but I was very good at just making it look like I was calm. Uh and now it's I pretty much say calm.

You just have to breathe through and say, okay, this too shall pass, and how are we gonna get through it? And not to get personally involved, not to feel like everything is, you know, that you did something wrong that made this situation blow up. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. But a lot of people just uh you I think so many people in this business are feel are perfectionists, then they want to do it perfectly, and when they don't, that can eat you up. So that uh just takes your energy away.

[25:51] Ken Davenport: You obviously have to do a lot of negotiating in your line of work. Did you learn it anywhere? How did you develop your negotiating style? Which, as someone who started his career in your office, hearing you beat up so many people was quite an education myself.

[26:09] Charlotte Wilcox: So, where did you learn to you know it's interesting because I'm in the next week or so I'm on a panel where I'm I'm the the moderator, but the subject is negotiating techniques, and I'm thinking, I have no idea how to do that panel, and I don't know how I learned it. I think again, just by doing it, by making mistakes. However, when I first started getting into management, I was working for Norman Rothstein, and he was traveling a lot on business. And he would say to me, Call this agent and say that we want to make an offer for this designer, and we'll pay this, and these are the dates. And you know, I was a good doobie, and I did that. And then the agent would say, Well, what about Purdue?

What about housing? What about transportation? What about assistance? What about this? And I'm thinking, I have no idea what he's talking about. So I would write it all down. Norman would call in and I'd say he wants to know, and I'd give him the list, and Norman would give me the answers. And I would call back and give those answers. Then they'd ask another raft of questions. So I think that's really how I learned was by being uh a go-between when my boss wasn't available.

[27:12] Charlotte Wilcox: I recently said to my staff, I've moved out of my large office into a small space, and I'm now in the same space as everybody else, which I'm loving because it it I didn't realize that I was feeling removed, but I feel so much more involved in everything, and it's exciting again the way it hasn't been for a while. And I gave them that story of saying this is how you learn, and then I thought, problem is that everything's done by email now, so there's nothing to hear. Um so it's uh I don't know quite how to train the new generation.

[27:45] Ken Davenport: It's so funny. That's how I was thinking that's how I learned as well. Like I remember, yeah, and I remember a boss of mine saying, Go ahead and make this offer to this actor. And I was like, Okay, here's the offer, it's X dollars. And the agent said that but what about dressing room? And what I was like, I don't know. I'll get back to you, and then just having to ask the questions and figure it out.

[28:04] Charlotte Wilcox: Yeah, is the way. What do you do though when you deal with this? Is a I find this the interesting part of this business, of course, is that you negotiate it with a lot of people who can be very emotional. We're dealing with art, we're dealing with artists, we're dealing with unlike lawyers for big corporations. These people are not trained in, they just most of us are former actors, right? How do you deal with people that can be very emotional, jump up and down screaming and yelling on the phone?

[28:36] Charlotte Wilcox: I can think of a few, and that is distressing and disturbing because it sort of comes at you, and you hopefully can anticipate it and shove it away before it gets to you. Because if it gets to you, it can throw you off. Then I need to like hang up and think about it and then figure out how to go back. But mostly just let them do their thing and then say, okay, that's how you feel now. How do we how are we gonna handle this? And often that stops them and gets them to go back to focus on a specific issue you're talking about. You know, they they rant, they rave. What I hate more than anything is when you make an offer to someone and they say that they are offended by this offer. And it's like, don't be offended.

It's the offer. Come back and negotiate. Tell me what you want. Being offended doesn't help anyone. And it's you know, they it in the in the early days when that would happen to me, I think, oh my god, I've offended someone, how awful. But it's I don't know if it's on purpose on their part. I don't know if they do it because they feel it will throw you off and make you uh uh make a better offer to them because now you're embarrassed that you didn't, or if it's just that they don't know how to respond, and so they respond that way, hoping you'll come back with something else.

[29:52] Charlotte Wilcox: And then there are agents that just you know say no, which in a way I think this is sometimes helpful that it's done on email because it's easy to say no over email. So they say no to you, you say no back, and eventually somebody moves. Uh or they start listening to an argument, an argument of why you're where you are. How much do you do over the phone? Do you still do a bunch over the phone? Or are you mostly?

[30:16] Charlotte Wilcox: No, I think I do most of it by by email. Uh with certain people, you do it over the phone because they're not email adept. And I go back and forth which way I prefer. I mean, I would love to not have email at all, but obviously we can't live that way. Um, but I do feel that sometimes the email and putting it all down in writing, there is less chance for misunderstanding. And you can't really say, Well, you didn't tell me that because it's there in black and white. And if you didn't tell them that, well, then that's your bed, and you have to figure that one out.

[30:51] Ken Davenport: One of my jobs for you when I was in your office was delivering your memos in the morning.

[30:56] Charlotte Wilcox: Oh, really?

[30:57] Ken Davenport: You used to type the memos. It was at Namco for the Weisslers, and I used to come in, you'd be like, Here you go, Ken, hand me a stack. Some would go to Barry Weisler and Fran Weisler and Alicia. All typed up. You'd be there early in the morning. It was like the email of its time, I guess.

[31:13] Charlotte Wilcox: Yeah, I guess it was the email at the time. And I learned a ton just by reading all that. I find with the younger generation that they they there's still plenty of things they could read and learn from, but they don't. And it's not that they're lazy. I don't know why they don't realize there's an opportunity there. They'll do anything you ask them, and cheerfully, but they don't put it together and say, Oh, I could go an extra step and learn more here.

[31:42] Ken Davenport: If you were starting today, what would you do differently than when you started?

[31:47] Charlotte Wilcox: As a general manager?

[31:49] Ken Davenport: Yeah.

[31:49] Charlotte Wilcox: Because getting into the business. Uh I wonder if you could get into the I think people still get into the business entry level the same way that I did. You you send resumes, you make phone calls, and you go have appointments. Now it's more about getting internships, but in a way that's sort of still the same thing. They didn't have internships in those days, but it was really sort of pounding the pavement. Today it might be the electronic pavement, but it's just trying to get your foot in the door the first time. And once you get it in the first time, if you're at all good, the rest is history because somebody will see a name that they recognize and say, Oh, I'll call that person.

[32:31] Ken Davenport: What do you think is the most common mistake that producers make on shows?

[32:37] Charlotte Wilcox: Oh my god, you have a few hours.

[32:40] Ken Davenport: Yes, we do. We have as much time as you are.

[32:43] Charlotte Wilcox: Uh what is the mistake they make? Well, it could be hiring the wrong people for the material they have. Uh what what do you think causes them to go astray?

[32:59] Charlotte Wilcox: I think they don't have the experience. They just it's not that they're hiring a friend, they just don't get it. Yeah, or they're hiring somebody that won a Tony Award and not bothering to look to see was that Tony Award deserved and worth it. I mean, just a Tony Award doesn't really say that the talent is there or that it's there on a particular kind of show. Um, you know, we all know that in in everything in life, from lemonade to show business, there's a flavor of the month, and often they go for the flavor of the month, having no idea whether the ability to deliver is there. So that's I think a big problem.

[33:37] Charlotte Wilcox: I don't think that they uh I don't think that most producers make a lot of financial mistakes because they're not really making those decisions. They're making the decisions, but they're making them with information given to them by the general manager. The financial decisions to me that producers make is just when to go over budget. Right? You're keeping everyone understanding the producer's like, okay, I'm gonna authorize an overspend.

[34:03] Charlotte Wilcox: That's exactly correct. And uh and how to spend the money in advertising. That's uh uh, you know, you you don't have to worry about how to and how to spend it on scenery. Many many areas there. Some of them are just so clear that there's no question. And I don't usually bother a producer with those, but I'm very used to um giving them information and letting them make the decision.

[34:29] Ken Davenport: What other things do they where do they go astray?

[34:32] Charlotte Wilcox: Well, maybe in picking the material to begin with. Is it hard? Maybe listening to the director and not that they shouldn't listen to the director, but without having the oversight of the director, because really the producer ought to be there overseeing it all and making sure that all the departments are gelling, and I think that that is slacking in a lot of people.

[34:57] Ken Davenport: Let's go back to this uh picking the material part because of course that's that's where it all begins. And I know you try to divorce yourself from the creative a bit, but when you get a show that you just know is a stinker from the start, do you feel and you're like, this is never gonna work. How do you show up to work?

[35:18] Charlotte Wilcox: Well, you know, I haven't done that in a long time. Well, that's not 100% true. You know, you and I think this is true for years and years. When the first time you read, not so much read because I was never a good reader, but uh of of shows. The first time you see a show, whether it be the first time you read it or or a uh a development production or whatever, you know exactly what you think, and then the next day you forget it all and you fall in love because you can't do it unless you love it.

[35:48] Charlotte Wilcox: Um, so that's really, you may know in your heart of hearts that it's got nothing. I try not to do those shows, however, a lot of decisions I make on what shows to do are based on, you know, the client, and if it's a client that's a good client and that I enjoy, I might do the show even though I don't think it's great. Although I also might voice my opinions about, you know, why are you doing this show? I've done this recently on a show. I'm saying, you know, I really don't think you should be doing this show for this reason, this reason, and this reason. Um, and I don't know if the producer will end up doing it or not. But that's gotta be hard to do, to be that honest with a friend and a deal.

I don't think I've ever done it until this one, but it was so clear to me that it was a bad idea. Not it's not true. The idea was a great idea, but the execution that was the basis of moving forward was bad execution. It was like you need to change the elements of this that are making it bad and start over. And then if you start over, you might have something, but right now you've got something that's a mess.

[36:56] Ken Davenport: Well, it's that kind of blunt advice, frankly, that I think all general managers should give, and I believe it's why you have the incredible career that you've had. I will never forget this moment in your office. It had to be 1994, where I heard a producer call and was trying to convince you to keep his show open. And I heard you interrupt that you cannot keep this show open. And I was like, I, she just told her boss, right? That this was not a good decision, but it was the best decision for the moment.

[37:31] Charlotte Wilcox: Well, and usually a decision like that is based on the fact that there's no money, and you know, dream away, but without the money, what can you do? And, you know, everybody falls in love with what they do and with the projects they do, and they can't stand to see that it doesn't work and they don't want to let it go, which I understand. But again, if you can't figure out the money, you don't have a choice. It's interesting because when I started in this business, a show would open and it might close the next day if it got bad reviews because everything was review-based. Now, because there's so much on the internet, almost nothing closes immediately. Everything goes on for weeks and weeks and weeks when maybe it shouldn't. And you, in your eyes, should a lot more things just open and just get out of the way?

[38:19] Ken Davenport: Yes.

[38:20] Charlotte Wilcox: And it, and it, and you know, I really feel badly for the producers and the investors when they get a Tony nomination. They've got a show that's a dog, it's not gonna live, there's no way, but they pour, you know, another million or million and a half in trying to get a Tony Award when there's no chance. And I can't quite understand emotionally, I can understand how they're engaged with it, but I can't understand how their mind doesn't look at it and tell them this is not gonna work. Why am I spending this money?

[38:52] Ken Davenport: Yeah, I had a show last year, obviously, that did not work in getting the band back together. But one of the things that I'm proud of, and I got a lot of great advice from peers in the business saying it's okay to close your show rather than chase and throw good money after bad.

[39:10] Ken Davenport: But it's a hard, it's a hard decision to make when you, it's art and business at the same time.

[39:14] Charlotte Wilcox: Right.

[39:14] Charlotte Wilcox: Well, and you're taking away jobs of, you know, hundreds of people, and it's, uh, it's very tough, but you don't want to be in a position where you kept the job but you couldn't pay them.

[39:14] Ken Davenport: Do you have any advice you got when you were coming up and starting out in the business that you still use today?

[39:33] Charlotte Wilcox: Well, the when I first was opening my own general management office, a noted general manager said, pay your own bills. Was like, really? Pay your own bills? I mean, I had worked for a company where other people did, and I've done that and I still do that. And I don't necessarily like doing it, and it takes a lot of time, but I know where the money's going and I know what's coming in. Whereas if you're not paying attention, maybe you don't. Just the same way as when you do a show, you gotta constantly say where I am my budget to actual budget to actual.

[40:09] Ken Davenport: So you pay your own phone bill.

[40:10] Charlotte Wilcox: Yeah, I pay everything. The rent, the phone bill, the, you know, quench quench water, and you name it, I pay them all.

[40:18] Ken Davenport: I love it.

[40:19] Charlotte Wilcox: So you general manage your own general management company.

[40:22] Ken Davenport: Yeah, that's right, exactly. And it, that's I tell you that the that's the part that I'm is no fun anymore, is running a small business. And you must feel the same way. It's running a small business is not fun. I want to do shows, but I chose many years ago to not go to work for a large corporation, but to do it on my own. So I look and I say, What was I thinking? I have no idea, but it's been a good run, so that's okay. I'm trying to think what other advice. Um, going back to the negotiating, I think what's so important in the negotiating is listening to the other side and trying to determine what it is they're after, and leveling with them and saying, Okay, I see where you're coming from, but here's my budget, I don't have it, and really making every point on a personal level as opposed to just a yes or a no and giving a reason for why you're there and listening if they have a good reason. It takes a lot of time, but it's what's needed.

[41:19] Ken Davenport: It's such great advice because one of the biggest negotiation or the first biggest negotiations I did, I just kept saying no, and it went nowhere.

[41:28] Charlotte Wilcox: Right.

[41:28] Ken Davenport: Because I wasn't, I was just saying no for no's sake because I thought that's what we did.

[41:33] Charlotte Wilcox: Right, and it really just isn't. And so then how did you come around to figure out a new way?

[41:39] Ken Davenport: I got slapped around. I got the person I was negotiating with went to his supervisor who went to my supervisor. So then mine came to me and said, Let me help you get to a solution here. Which is great, and explain first of all, and I actually we didn't give, we did I didn't back off a lot of my positions, but you were able to justify them. Here's why you're saying no, and here's why, and here's where you can give something in order to get something.

[42:07] Charlotte Wilcox: Right, right?

[42:07] Ken Davenport: Absolutely, and then I think I've done a lot of collective bargaining over the years and watching that, which is usually run by the lawyers, but the first time I did it it was children's theater and Barry Weissler was the bargainer on the for the children's theater group. And sitting in that negotiation, I think I learned an awful lot about unions and about negotiating back and forth.

[42:30] Charlotte Wilcox: Okay, my last question, which is my genie question. I want you to imagine that the genie from Aladdin comes to visit you and thanks you for your incredible commitment and service to this industry. We were joking before we turned the microphone on that there have been many times with you flirted with retirement over the years and have told me and many others I'm not doing any shows. I've got my one show and then the next thing you know you have 17 and we're so thankful that you've been continuing to do what you do because you've helped so many of us along the way including me. What's the one thing that you would ask this genie to wish away the thing that drives you the craziest about Broadway in this business gets you angry you're calm now but what really gets you going that you'd ask this genie oh just please get rid of this and this business would be so much easier to deal with?

[43:01] Charlotte Wilcox: Oh, there are so many things, so many things. I guess maybe I would say get rid of representatives of all kinds of creative people who really don't know what they're doing and just ask, you know, for outrageous things which to me just says they don't understand the economics of the business at all and they're just doing what you did when you said no and that's such a waste of time. And I think I would say maybe we should build a few more theaters. Although I guess it was in the, was it the 70s or the 80s when the English shows came over, and prior to that, you know, you could have had any theater on Broadway by making a phone call. But now I hate seeing producers put together shows and they can't go anywhere because they have to wait two or three years for a theater. It's very difficult.

[44:10] Ken Davenport: So there it would be not what I'd wish away. I'd wish what they would do. What else would I wish away? I guess, you know, if you could wish away a lot of the, um, the things that get in the way of the creative process, which I guess it's my job to keep those things away from the creative team, and I try to do that, but sometimes it's, uh, challenging. So the what gets in the way, uh, stupid union rules, you know, we rid of a lot of them now, but I really have to pay somebody to pull a curtain when there is no curtain, and I have to spend hours arguing about that. I mean, it's like a no-brainer, but it wasn't a no-brainer when there was such a rule, and there's a lot of things like that in our industry. So I guess I would just maybe have everybody be a little more reasonable, a little more aware, and maybe a little more knowledgeable about what they're really doing.

[45:07] Ken Davenport: It all comes back to this feeling of we're all in this just trying to create a show. And if we could just focus on it. So often that's not the case when you're negotiating certain things. It's like they forget there's a show.

[45:21] Charlotte Wilcox: Well, thank you for that. Thank you for doing this. We've, uh, waited a long time to hear your words of wisdom, and it was well worth the wait. Thank you, all of you, for listening. This is Ken Davenport with the Producer's Perspective Podcast. We'll see you next time. Thanks again to Charlotte Wilcox for sitting down with me today to record this podcast. Don't forget, the super conference is so close. November 16th and 17th. Joe Iconis and Heidi Shrek are hard at work right now on their keynotes to educate, inspire, and motivate you to get your careers, your shows off the ground. Bark Chair on a panel, Mo Brady on a panel, Charlotte Wilcox, Dory Berenstein, and tons, tons more. If you're enjoying this new season of podcasts, review us on the Apple Podcast Network.

Helps other theater makers and theater fans like you enjoy these conversations and hopefully be inspired by them. To find more of me, you can follow me on Instagram. It's at Ken Davenport Bway or check out my blog at theproducersperspective.com. And now, one of my most favorite things that we do, we break a new songwriter right here on the podcast. This week's hashtag songwriter of the week is Max Vernon. Today we're playing Max's song, Some Kind of Paradise. If you like what you hear and want to learn more, check Max out on Instagram. At Fraulein Sally Bowles. At Fralin Sally Bowels, actually. Fralline Sally Bowels took me a few times. Very interesting Instagram handle, Max. Or MaxVernon.com. That's probably easier to get to. MaxVernon.com. Go to the website, share the website, share the tunes. Let's break some new songwriters out there. We will see you next week with a brand new episode. No go to drone. The XCRU.