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[0:05] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggert, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:14] Bobby Steggert: Claybourne Elder and I grew up together in the business. We were of that same handful of openly gay actors in that transition time between it being something to downplay and something to celebrate. I never thought of him in any competitive way, though. We were never up for the same parts. I was playing Angenus, and frankly, I thought he was a lot hotter than I am. Just take that for what it's worth. But also, he is just such a nice guy. Being a nice guy is something that Clay deeply values and who he truly is. He was raised to be generous and thoughtful, giving. It's opened many doors and endeared him to anyone who knows him. And yet, the complexity of the conversation that follows might really surprise you.

There is in a history of people pleasing, a deep personal cost. Clay so bravely opens up about the pain of being led by a part that learned to put other people's needs and comfort far before his own. Because I myself learned some of the same lessons as a kid. Please others and you will survive another day. I personally know the pain of a hypervigilance to the needs of others, especially those who are more dominant, that forces you to suppress your internal experience for the sake of peace or the avoidance of conflict. One of the important lessons I'm learning even now in my 40s as a therapist is that I'm not there just to support someone in their perspective. I'm there in service of a relationship of two individuals coming together.

And that means at times the discomfort of challenging someone, questioning, disagreeing, even. Healthy relationships are about doing this with respect, of course. Clay is currently grappling with these dynamics as a friend, father, artist. And my hope is that his vulnerability here is a testament to what growing really takes. A brave, clear-eyed look at where we've come from and where we are, and taking the risk to imagine a different way forward.

[2:57] Bobby Steggert: This is all for me happening very organically. And so you and I have reconnected because I just met your son in his first grade class. They're studying ragtime all year. And Lynn and Steve have written them an original musical, and I went in with Judy Kay. And so that's how we reconnected. I just think that's such a cool way to see you again.

[3:17] Claybourne Elder: I know, it's really crazy. It is really special. And I thank you for doing that. I really appreciate it. Really meaningful to the kids. I remember in high school, my class did Crazy for You, and we didn't have a band. And so we had to perform two of the original cast recording in performance. Oh my gosh. And these kids are getting a professional education in the theater in this really remarkable way.

[3:42] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, it's amazing. And you know what I love too is that they're studying the theater as a whole unit. It's not just like everybody, here's a part in the show. Like my son didn't want to be in the show. He doesn't really want to perform. And so he's the set designer. So he designed the sets. He did all the research. He made little models, and I'm helping them build the set, and we're building it just the things that he made. What he imagined will be realized in real life.

[4:08] Claybourne Elder: That's incredible. It's really exciting. It made yes, I believe in the transformative nature of theater and it being very important to study, but also just for these kids, this incredibly special thing they're doing, and they know that it's really special and really exciting is cool.

[4:22] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, I signed a poster, and literally every original cast member from Ragtime has seen these kids. Every one of them. Insane.

[4:29] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Anyway, so I'm so happy to see you. And our lives have changed so much since we last were in the biz together. But before we get to any of the biz stuff, when you thought about the part of you that you wanted to share, what came up?

[4:43] Claybourne Elder: The first thing that came to my mind was the people pleaser. For a lot of reasons. And it's a part of me that I feel a lot of conflicting things about. That it's something that makes me a good parent. And it's something that also puts me in a very sub-place, like in a very unpowerful place at times. And how it is in relationship to what we do and the good and bad ways that how I work as an artist.

[5:11] Claybourne Elder: This is such a meta question, but I even worried when I asked you, and you mentioned that you wanted to talk about the people pleaser part, that part of you agreed to do this, and you might not have wanted to.

[5:24] Bobby Steggert: See? Hilarious. No, this is great. I love this. Part of the reason it came to the front of my mind is that it's something I've been talking about with my therapist and something that I've been thinking about more acutely in the past couple years of my life.

[5:37] Claybourne Elder: I'm excited to talk about it.

[5:38] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. As a gay boy, boy, do I understand many aspects of that? Your story is different than mine, of course. And so, what are the origins of it for you?

[5:48] Claybourne Elder: I think there's definitely an aspect of being a gay Mormon kid on wanting to make everyone happy and make it all okay. Also being the youngest of eight kids, there was a lot of negotiating it within my family. I'm very much the peacekeeper among my family. And I think that maybe even more than being gay, that really informed what that was and the origins of that for me.

[6:13] Bobby Steggert: What was the range of ages? And what were you observing as a youngest kid that put you into that role?

[6:19] Claybourne Elder: I'm in a mixed family. So I have three siblings from my dad's side, three siblings from my mom's side, and then me and my brother are in the middle. And my siblings don't get along with each other, the two sides, but I was in the middle. And my older brother, who's also in the middle, sort of took one side a little more than another. And I felt a lot of my childhood that I was trying to make them like each other, and also trying to make my family like everyone.

[6:47] Claybourne Elder: Though I was the youngest, it was like people it's funny, people are like, oh, the youngest, and you were like the baby. But I think that in a lot of ways, I was left. I jokingly say that I was raised by wolves because I was left to myself a lot. I was by myself a lot as a kid. And then I think that trying to get people to spend time with me was about me trying to make them want to like me or make them want to be with me.

[7:11] Bobby Steggert: So it was about making yourself as amiable, as pleasing as possible.

[7:15] Claybourne Elder: Yeah. Which again, and also that was definitely reinforced by Mormonism. We could probably spend hours talking about that.

[7:22] Bobby Steggert: What about the Mormon culture specifically encourages people to be so friendly and so welcoming and so kind?

[7:31] Claybourne Elder: I love it and I hate it that I was a part of it. And as a parent, I had a great childhood. And I learned a lot from being Mormon. And there are so many parts of me that I'm like, I hope I can instill some of that into Bo without having to go through the other parts. Because a Mormonism is so much about joy and happiness and always being happy. I remember being told from a very early age, like no one wants to hear how tired you are or how upset you are. Like nobody wants to hear it.

[7:55] Bobby Steggert: What would negativity have been interpreted as?

[8:00] Claybourne Elder: I think that it's interpreted like something's wrong with you, or that you've done something wrong, or there's something bad about you if you can't be happy. And a lot of that is about making people like you. There's something about happiness that is equated with connection to God.

[8:18] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. Yeah, very much.

[8:20] Claybourne Elder: If you are, yeah, if you are happy, it's because you're doing everything right.

[8:24] Bobby Steggert: And so from your earliest memory, what was right?

[8:28] Claybourne Elder: I think right to me meant being popular, like being well received, being someone that people wanted to be around or wanted to work with, or you know, that got along with everybody and fit in any environment.

[8:43] Bobby Steggert: And I can tell that's part of what you're also proud of, right? To be adaptable is something that's so important.

[8:50] Claybourne Elder: Yeah. And that's the tricky part of it for me is negotiating that part of me. It's good and helpful and great that I feel that way. And then there's something about it I have noticed it makes people feel like I don't know what I'm doing. Or they don't take me seriously, or that maybe there's even something not real about me.

[9:13] Bobby Steggert: The assumption of your kindness and your openness is that there's nothing underneath. How does that feel? How do you feel when you feel that discordance?

[9:24] Claybourne Elder: You know, when I was younger, it didn't bother me as much. Because I am a person who assumes they know nothing. Like my favorite teachers are people who would agree that they don't know everything, but not the same way that I'm like, I don't know, I don't know everything. And so when I was younger, it was like, yeah, help me, teach me. Yeah, I don't know. And I come across green and I come across easygoing and will agree with you. And so I think that there were times when it helped me and other people helped me. But now as I get older, I find that proving myself is different than it used to be. Sometimes I feel like people don't take me seriously because I am like so easygoing. But I feel like that's just really me. Hmm at the same time. Does that make sense?

[10:10] Bobby Steggert: It does. And the parts of us that we had to survive with when we were young can evolve and they can be a beautiful and really functional part of who we are as adults.

[10:20] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, but I don't know. I hate the dichotomy of maybe our greatest asset being also the worst thing. Because I do feel like people walk all over me sometimes. I'm very susceptible to that. Which sounds victimy, and I don't mean to just be like, oh, it's so bad for me that I try to be so likable that it ends up causing that.

[10:42] Claybourne Elder: But it's true. It's something I've had to come to terms with. What's an example of a memory of having men taken advantage of for that assumption? I have ended up in friendships and relationships where I want to appease so much that things will get very far as what that person feels like they are allowed to say to me or how they treat me. And I have been in recent friendships, even with people who it has really gotten to a place that is very negative. And I feel like I can't tell people, other close people around me about it. Feels very intimate when I feel like they are being very critical of me. And I am like, yes, you're right. Let me fix it. And I've had to take a step back in some of those situations and be like, okay, yeah, that's not okay with me.

And I have to say professionally too, things are different than 20 years ago when we started. And I think that there were things that people said to me in rooms that I really let them feel okay about that I really wish I hadn't. And does that refer to what you talked about earlier, in the sense that as actors, we have to be people pleasers in order to maintain a veneer of professionalism.

[11:58] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. And how do you not do that? I see people doing it. I know that there are people that are better at it than me about being more real, speaking up for themselves, their needs, things like that. But why can't I access that sometimes is what is hard for me. Was there ever a time in growing up in terms of your origins where setting boundaries was appropriate? Or was it completely off limits?

[12:23] Claybourne Elder: I feel like there was a time when I was a Mormon. It was easier to be like, I can't do this because of that, or I'm not going to be this way because of that, because of church things. That was okay. And I think that was the only thing that was okay for setting boundaries. The external excuse of something religious.

[12:40] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[12:41] Claybourne Elder: I think maybe losing that was the loss of me feeling like there was any real reason why I was allowed to send boundaries. Because that was the only reason when I was a kid. And I don't think I ever learned what it was like to have boundaries on my own. And then you come to New York, you're an actor, and you're taught that you're not allowed to have boundaries either.

[13:01] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. And that everybody has to like you, or they won't want to work with you. Do you feel comfortable sharing any example of that dynamic as an actor?

[13:09] Claybourne Elder: Yeah. You know, there is one particular instance that always sort of I think about. It seems a very small thing, maybe. I haven't really talked about it with a lot, but especially being a gay man, being a gay actor in the musical theater, among all the other gay people, seems like there are lots of gay people in the theater. I was working with a director once who was himself gay, and he would say things to me in front of the entire company. One time he said to me, He was like, This is the straightest character you've ever played, right? Like you don't usually play straight guys. Like, I don't know how to answer that. Um, but I made him feel okay about it. I was like, Oh, you, you know, like he would say things like that to me that just made me feel really small, but I couldn't speak up to him about it because I didn't want him to not like me. He was the boss.

[14:00] Bobby Steggert: And I find that I don't know, being gay in general, people take a lot of liberties with you about how you want to be treated and talked to. I think I have to name something too, which is that there's the added layer of your being so handsome. And one of the ways when there's a complicated power structure between two people where one person is the boss, but you are younger and attractive, is that he might have been reinforcing his power over you by taking you down a peg.

[14:29] Claybourne Elder: You know what else? I don't think anybody would have called me handsome until I was like 29. And then I started getting cast in roles. And it's funny when you start getting cast in roles where the breakdown is like handsome guy, and I don't feel like that person. If my agents sent me appointments for them, I would be like, I don't want to do this because I'm not that handsome, I'm not good looking enough. And when I started getting those roles where I had to take my shirt off, I get very it's fine. My husband knows this about me and close friends know this about me. But when I'm in a show in which I'm hypersexualized, I get angry when people oversexualize me or assume something about me because I have my shirt off in a show, or because I'm in my underwear in a show. Because it gets pretty graphic pretty fast, especially in the age of Instagram. I get very angry about it.

[15:21] Bobby Steggert: Clay, what I'm noticing too, and this is so normal, you have had this people pleasing part, but another part has come forward to defend you, which is anger. You have a part of you that is resenting that you've had to people please.

[15:38] Claybourne Elder: Yeah.

[15:40] Claybourne Elder: There really is. What does it feel like to be in that anger and to express it?

[15:46] Claybourne Elder: It is very hard for me. I don't feel good at it. And then when I do it, sometimes I will get so angry that then it really comes out as anger. And I say that I've never yelled at a person in my life. You know, I mean, like, I will get silently angry to myself about it or tell friends I'm angry. Do I ever stick up for myself with the people that are doing it? No, not really. But it's hard. I feel like a baby, like when I'm trying to speak up for myself. And I trip over my words and I can't express myself. As a person who feels like generally that I can express myself pretty well, in those instances, I don't know how. And I do a terrible job at it. And what I end up doing is I'm so sorry to bring this up.

But could you please, if it's okay with you, I don't want to, but if it's okay with you, could you please stop doing that? But only if that's okay, and I'm so sorry to bring it. I just trip over myself. And I mean, when I say this, I'm talking about every day, to be totally honest, about trying to stick up for myself. I'm really in the thick of trying to figure this out.

[16:52] Bobby Steggert: God, but it's so beautiful how honest you can be about it. It feels very vulnerable because it is a real real thing. Yeah. To me. What would it be to you to risk speaking from the place of anger?

[17:09] Claybourne Elder: On an intellectual level, I don't even know anymore. I don't know what I'm doing. Why am I, why can't I do that? What am I risking? I'm like, I don't know. I know that on an intellectual level I can say nothing. Yeah, it's okay. But if you put me in a situation where I have to speak up for myself, I just I crumble. I would have to trust that person so inherently that I would probably never get in the situation with them to begin with, where they where I had to do that. I often think about this. So if you can feel into the feeling of that people pleasing instinct, even in conflict, that avoidance of anger, how old do you feel in that space?

[17:53] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, like a tiny kid. Like seven.

[17:57] Bobby Steggert: And what would happen to seven-year-old Clay if he had been angry?

[18:02] Claybourne Elder: Oh, I would have gotten in so much trouble. Or there was just no time for it or room for it. You know, I don't think if I had been angry about something, there would have been someone to listen. It was just an impossibility.

[18:17] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. You said something else, and this is also so common when anger can't be expressed, it turns inward. When you said you would silently be angry at yourself, what do you judge yourself for? What do you feel angry for yourself about when in the space?

[18:34] Claybourne Elder: I get angry at myself for being led to places I didn't want to be, or in situations I didn't want to be in, or in trusting too much or listening too much to people who didn't really have my best interests but said they did, or were leaders or that I had to listen to, and for not sticking up for myself. That's frequently something that comes up. How did I let myself get here?

[19:01] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[19:08] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back.

[19:10] Bobby Steggert: Hey y'all, it's Bobby. In one month's time, the quiet part out loud has become even more than I hoped. And now it's time to ask you. Who do you want to hear from? Who are you curious about? Or what part of you do you want reflected in these conversations? Head to the episode notes and follow the link to a quick survey or reach out on Instagram at QuietPart Out Loud Pod. And thanks for listening. Have you found yourself as you've gotten older, as you've become a parent, as you've become more established as an actor, able to say no in any different ways?

[19:44] Claybourne Elder: What's funny? The thing about being a parent, if anybody messed with my kid, I would have no problems getting up in their face about it. None. I would stick up for him for anything. Easily. No doubt. I would say that professionally it is it's still the same. It's because I will always listen and not fight. Because I want to be whatever you want me to be. Like I'm in an audition room. I'll how high? Jump how high? What do you want? Who do you want me to be? Let's do this. Because we're taught to do that. I don't find it easier. Or I find myself fighting someone's assumption of me. They're like, This is who you are. And I'm like, yes. Even if I don't feel like it is.

[20:23] Bobby Steggert: This is who you are. You're making such a good point though. It's a reciprocal thing because then there are parts of us that play into what's expected of us to keep it going, to keep the train moving. I don't know. In the end, I think opinions are so valued in the room or in a space or on a set. It's almost like I was taught to not have such strong opinions about anything. And so therefore I have a harder time coming up with them or sticking to what I think. Like in those environments in which I'm working. And somebody's like, This is what I think about this. I will be like, whatever, what do you want? Yeah. I have a hard time with that sometimes, unless I'm working with someone who's really good at bringing it out of me or talking to me about it or letting me experiment and fail.

[21:16] Bobby Steggert: And I think that's not very common.

[21:19] Claybourne Elder: You're right.

[21:19] Bobby Steggert: And so without that sense of real safety, the real space made, the easiest, the most efficient thing to do is just to defer.

[21:28] Bobby Steggert: I can also tell me if this is right. That part of your frustration is that in those dynamics, the energy spent in making sure that people are okay takes you away from yourself.

[21:40] Claybourne Elder: Absolutely.

[21:42] Claybourne Elder: It's like that introverted extrovert thing. I love being around people, and people are like, look, you're so outgoing and friendly. And I am exhausted when I am in a room, I'm trying to make sure everybody is happy and okay. And that not only that they like me, but they like each other and they're having a good time.

[21:59] Bobby Steggert: So very much like your siblings.

[22:02] Claybourne Elder: Yeah.

[22:02] Bobby Steggert: What do you want to change about that?

[22:06] Claybourne Elder: I would like to be able to calmly stand up for myself. And I would like the mental clarity in situations where I need to evaluate how I really feel without thinking of the context of the person I'm with or the people I'm with, how I feel and what I would like or what I need.

[22:28] Bobby Steggert: When do you get closest to that?

[22:31] Claybourne Elder: When I'm by myself. If I'm writing or I'm running or out by myself thinking or meditating, it's the closest I get to feeling that way.

[22:42] Bobby Steggert: And what about in relationship to others? When you're closest to feeling centered in yourself.

[22:50] Claybourne Elder: I don't know. I think that I respond to the kind of people who ask a lot of questions because I feel like sometimes I'm not readily a person who openly expresses themselves. And so among people who are more likely to draw things out of me, that's among people who I'm really close with. And most of the time this problem arises around people I'm not, I don't know very well.

[23:14] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. I'm thinking about attunement. It's probably something you think about as a parent all the time.

[23:20] Claybourne Elder: I grew up so aware that real space wasn't being made for my whole experience. And so I became very sensitive to whether someone was actually attuned to me or not. And if they're not attuned to me, I can very easily decide that it's not worth sharing, that I'm not able to share, I won't share. It's done. I'm wondering if that resonates with you, this idea like, am I safe? Am I not safe? And it's a very clear distinction for you with people.

[23:45] Claybourne Elder: Yes.

[23:46] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, that very much rings true. It's the hardest thing because it's just a feeling. They may not be at all. Like, how good are you at reading that situation?

[23:55] Bobby Steggert: Who knows? I assume we're often right, but you don't always know.

[24:02] Claybourne Elder: You're like either inside or you're outside.

[24:04] Claybourne Elder: Very much I do feel that that person is either inside or they're outside.

[24:08] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, I so relate to that. Then what is trust for you when it comes to the relationships that feel safe? What is trust? How do you define it?

[24:17] Claybourne Elder: That's so challenging because I don't know that I know when I feel the most like I'm able to share something in trust, but I will say the times I am least is among people in power or people I'm intimidated by. And that can be like a professionally, but also just a powerful people in a room of friends. And I guess I asked this before. Does it really not change as you become more and more successful?

[24:41] Bobby Steggert: No, I think you think it would. I think I thought it would. I think I did think I'll do this and then I'll feel that. I'll feel like I've arrived if I do a Broadway show. No, that could just be a mistake if I do two Broadway shows. No, that could also just have been a mistake.

[24:57] Claybourne Elder: Then I think that's very comp. That we're like, you're always looking at that thing. That's what I'm gonna feel. Okay. And I don't know. As for me, I feel like in some ways it's gotten worse. The insecurity of it all. When I was just some kid from Utah who was like never gonna make it and never get a job, was like, I don't know, I can do whatever I want. Here we go. I think I was a lot braver back then.

[25:19] Bobby Steggert: Is it about just shifting expectations?

[25:21] Claybourne Elder: But now I'm on an HBO show, so what's the next television show? What do you mean? What I remember from my acting career was, okay, well, you got a ton of nomination, so you need to start on a Broadway show next. It's like these expectations not only from within, but from without, from the people who are supporting your career.

[25:37] Bobby Steggert: Oh, yeah, definitely. Yes, you're doing this, and the next thing you should do is this. There are a lot of unspoken expectations about what things mean that you feel like you have to adhere to.

[25:48] Claybourne Elder: So my solution was to literally stop doing it. And it was a really very black and white decision, and sometimes I can't believe I did it. Do you believe that some of these dynamic questions are solvable for you within the system that you're in?

[26:07] Bobby Steggert: Here's the thing. Right now I am focusing on some of the darker parts of it for me, and some of the darker parts of me, and some things that I find difficult about myself. But I, in general, I'm so happy and have a relationship with what I do and with the business that is pretty good. And I don't think it's for everybody, but I think it's worth saying that I love it. But also I feel like the way you go about doing it has totally changed as I've gotten older and more experienced in it. Like you think there's this one path, but there are infinite paths.

[26:49] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back. Do you believe that some of the people pleasing dynamics that feel baked into that of being an actor are solvable within the system of being an actor?

[27:02] Claybourne Elder: Yes, because I see people doing it. I think I do see people doing it successfully. I worry that it's not something you can teach and it's not something you can learn. I worry that about myself. Though as I say that, I've changed a lot in the past couple years. And I'm braver than I was. I'm braver like I was in a lot of ways. I think it is solvable, and I think it's something we have to solve within ourselves. I think we've all been in a space where we see somebody who feels small being extra big or too much or being not fun to work with because they feel small. It is not because they are bad people or because they're unequipped. It's that we're in this thing, we're in this business where we're ranked in categories and we start to feel like we're in this one and we want to be in that one, and then we are mad about it, and then we act out in ways. And I feel like it's something that within ourselves has to be worked on to make it better. Like this is my thing to work on to be a better member of my community, to be a better member of a cast.

[28:05] Bobby Steggert: You said something which I so viscerally felt from you that if it were about your kid, you'd have no problem sticking up for him. That's so clear. I'm wondering how to use that clarity for yourself.

[28:18] Claybourne Elder: That's a great idea. But I feel like is it enough to be like, okay, pretend for a moment a person is saying that thing to your kids, and how would you feel? I don't know, maybe. Or more literally, who do you want him to see in you?

[28:35] Bobby Steggert: Oh, yeah.

[28:37] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, absolutely. What values are feel really important to teach him?

[28:42] Claybourne Elder: Just front of mine right now. I want him to be a kind person. I want him to be a person who helps other people. And you know it's funny because I start to say these things, and it's hard for me not to say who puts other people before himself. Because it is so instilled in me from an early age. I want him to be a person who helps someone who needs him, but I want him to be a person who feels strong and confident in who he is.

[29:07] Bobby Steggert: Question is does kindness have to be people pleasing? Can kindness have boundaries?

[29:10] Claybourne Elder: No, that's exactly true. And obviously, there is an immense kindness and boundary. The kindest thing you can do to some people is give them a boundary and all that.

[29:24] Bobby Steggert: Right, they know what they're working with.

[29:26] Claybourne Elder: Yeah. How has parenthood shifted you and your perspective on all of this?

[29:33] Claybourne Elder: One way I've had to learn to not totally spoil my kids by being everything for them, giving them everything they want. And I think I'm okay at it. I think that you learn it when they're like babies and they're starting to get their own opinions and want things. And I know I have to be the rulemaker and I have to be in charge. And they need you to be in charge. I think that has been very good for me as a person to feel that they have what is good for them or they do what is good for them and they learn the things that are good for them and not just whatever they want in their three-year-old, four-year-old brain.

[30:09] Bobby Steggert: Right. You authorized yourself. You were authorized with that power, and it feels healthy.

[30:15] Claybourne Elder: Yeah.

[30:16] Claybourne Elder: Yeah, and necessary. And the highest form of care. And so then what is strength? You say that I want Bo to be strong. What is strength?

[30:25] Claybourne Elder: Yeah. I want him to have a sense of his place in the world and of what he's capable of. I want him to feel he knows what he can do and have confidence in it. I want him to be somebody who just can say fuck you to somebody. That's what I want him to be.

[30:41] Bobby Steggert: And what about you?

[30:44] Claybourne Elder: You know what? Honestly, my therapist I have been seeing off and on for many years. One time said to me, and I'll never forget it, he was like, you need to tell someone to fuck off. And that's your assignment, and you have to do it by next week.

[30:57] Bobby Steggert: Did you?

[30:57] Claybourne Elder: No, I don't think I did. Because I'm not that person. I'm a nice guy. And looking back and thinking about that person who sat in that chair 10 years ago who had their therapist say that, I have come a long way. It's nice to think about the distance I am from that person.

[31:10] Bobby Steggert: It's something beautiful about growing old.

[31:12] Claybourne Elder: Go growing old. I'm talking about like I think I'm an 80-year-old man. It's something beautiful about getting older, though. People say the best part of being old is you just don't care anymore. You just don't care what anybody thinks about you anymore. I see a glimmer of that.

[31:23] Claybourne Elder: I see a glimmer of that. And I want Bo to know that of an earlier age than I learned that, because I don't think anybody told me.