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[0:05] Bobby Steggert: I'm Bobby Steggert, and this is The Quiet Part Out Loud.

[0:14] Bobby Steggert: Most of us have parts that are concerned with pleasing others. We're social creatures, after all. Our species is successful for its ability to cooperate on a large scale. Evolutionarily, shame is actually something that has kept our communities cohesive. If you think about it, veering from the social norm carries such anxiety for many of us because of a deeply wired fear of being cast out of the tribe. As such, shame is also something that can be very damaging to the individual psyche. And that's really what this podcast is about. The myriad ways in which we protect ourselves in order to avoid shame. In the following conversation, Brandon Uranowitz and I discussed the legacy of shame that put his people-pleasing part into hyperdrive as a kid.

If you're listening to these episodes in order, you'll recall that Clayborn Elder also shared his people-pleasing part. And the part of me that wants order and symmetry and novelty in this podcast was at first worried about redundancy. But upon further thinking, it really is the perfect circumstance to illustrate how we can all have a similar part, but with entirely different functions. Performance in achievement in convincing others of a version of professional and personal success that insulated him. Of all people's stories so far, Brandon's is the one that I most deeply relate to. The similarities are abundant, really, in our early drive towards social and professional acceptance. He also shares the fear of exposing himself to an authenticity he was not ready to live in the form of panic attacks.

No, I've never shared this, but for a few years in my early teens, when I had a burgeoning awareness that I was gay, and when my parts were furiously exhaustively performing to keep me from exposure, I got such debilitating migraines weekly, every Monday. And at one point I was in and out of neurological testing, the naive belief of doctors that there may be something medically wrong with me. It wasn't a brain tumor. In fact, it was my body screaming under the weight and pressure of suppression. And as Brandon shares as well, the only way out of these messages from the body is a release into truth. Brandon also shares how his work could only thrive once he stopped pleasing others and began committing to authenticity. And how, even with the enormous aligned success he has evolved into, being at the top of your game still comes with surprising complexities.

[3:27] Brandon Uranowitz: When you and I worked together on one of the worst plays I'd ever read.

[3:32] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[3:33] Brandon Uranowitz: And it was entirely my people pleaser that forced me to go and engage in that. And I've been thinking about how often actors do that. We're told that we must say yes to whatever is offered to us. And that ethos is so so in me. And so I'm so curious about your people pleaser.

[3:50] Bobby Steggert: Oh, yeah. That was also the impulse that kept me returning to that play that I have actually no creative or artistic interest in being a part of. But because of the people pleaser in me, I was like, yes, I should go and continue to give them my time and my energy and my creative abilities or whatever. I also think that on some level, we are conditioned from an early age, if we want to go into this industry, we are conditioned to think that we have to say yes to everything because opportunities beget other opportunities. And who are we to say no to something? But it really wasn't until I started saying no to things that my career started to go down the path that I envisioned for myself.

[4:36] Brandon Uranowitz: That's interesting. And we'll get to that because I am a firm believer that boundaries are actually very powerful.

[4:42] Bobby Steggert: Yes. But tell me about early years. And I know you were a young actor like I was, but in terms of being gay, in terms of any part of your family culture, how did people pleasing come into your life?

[4:54] Brandon Uranowitz: I was thinking about this conversation. And it's funny that you bring up literally those two things because those are the two things that I was planning to talk about specifically in regards to the people pleaser in me. One being gay and in the closet, to further that being gay in the closet and trying to convince people that I wasn't gay. And then also being a child actor and the desire to be liked and not really understand the difference between professional and personal, and thinking that rejection or whatever meant that these people didn't want to be my friend in some way. And we can get into this now if you want, plus the trauma of my experience on a very specific show and being so close to fulfilling the dream of being on Broadway and then getting fired, basically, and having it ripped out from under me.

And I didn't really realize until recently how deeply rooted that experience has been, because I like to think of myself as a strong-willed, independent person who can move on from things, who can heal from things. I've only recently realized how deeply felt that experience was and why I get really neurotic and anxious about certain projects that I really want. That feels most present. So yeah, tell me tell me the story. And then also how people pleasing was central to the trauma of that experience.

[6:29] Brandon Uranowitz: So when I was 10, 11, I played the little boy in Ragtime in Toronto with Maren, with Audra, with Stokes, with Peter Friedman, Mark Jacobi. It was the original production. Pre-Broadway tryout, massive at that point. I think it was like $14 million, which is nothing now for a Broadway show. But then it was like huge. And it was in Toronto. And so my mom and my sister and I moved to Toronto so that I could do the show while my dad stayed in New Jersey so he could work and he would come up and visit on weekends. This was like a big moment for not just me, but for my family. But we were all very passionate about it and willing. And I got there and I replaced someone very early on, and we had six or seven months left of the run.

And I was very concerned not just with doing a good job, but I was very concerned with being liked by the company. And I got very close with a cast member. And I think this person may have, I don't know, had some issues with the creative team or with stage management or something. And it became clear pretty early on that like my closeness with this cast member was somewhat of an issue, but I didn't really understand it. I don't know. I started to feel like I was doing some things wrong. And I would get like a lot of notes from the associates. And I think the most important part is that my last name is Uranowitz. I look pretty Jewish. I was playing a wasp. They were bleaching my hair and my eyebrows twice every two weeks.

And so there was like this other added element of this extra effort to make me look the part. And so there were all of these things that felt crunchy, even though I was very much living my dream. Like the day-to-day felt amazing. I was in this huge new show that was going to Broadway, and I was ostensibly going to Broadway with it. I think one of the producers at some cast party told my parents that I was. And this was also in the days when like everyone had a mailbox and like email wasn't really a thing. And so I remember getting to the theater one day, and every actor in their mailbox had their like official offer for Broadway. And I didn't have one in my mailbox. And I got very confused. And now that part of the experience is like a black hole in my memory, but I just know that the reason was that they felt that I didn't really look the role enough in order to create the social and cultural constructs that they wanted to portray in the show.

And that was the reason for not bringing me to Broadway. But I always felt like there were other reasons. Again, because I was a kid and my brain was still developing and I couldn't make the distinction between the professional and the personal.

[9:38] Bobby Steggert: You had done something wrong.

[9:39] Brandon Uranowitz: Yeah, I felt like I had done something wrong. Beyond the physical appearance of it, it didn't feel like part of the whole story. And I took it really personally. And then when I got back, and I went back to school, because I left for seven months, and you probably understand this too. I was like leaving school all the time in the middle of the day to go on auditions. I didn't have many close friends at school either. And so I just felt really alienated, isolated, and I had done something wrong. And then you add on top of that, this is the late 90s in New Jersey, and I'm also realizing that I'm gay. And at a school where despite the appearance of being progressive and liberal and granola, honestly, that wasn't really okay.

And the kids that went there were certainly not okay with it. This was a school where I had to play soccer in the fall and baseball in the spring. That was part of the curriculum. And so any evidence that I wasn't like the other straight boys would be picked apart and made fun of and bullied. There's this crucible of all of these things happening to me where I felt like I needed to make everyone else around me happy. And I had to be likable in the ways that I felt people wanted me to be likable.

[11:14] Bobby Steggert: And how would you have defined that from the experience of a middle schooler?

[11:18] Brandon Uranowitz: A very specific haircut, a very specific wardrobe, good at the sport, and starting to be interested in girls. Those are all examples of conformity, which make a lot of sense to me. It's like, how do I blend in as best as possible? And then what I'm also curious about is what happened interpersonally. How did you relate to other people?

[11:41] Brandon Uranowitz: I think that was when I really started to develop a sense of humor. So that's a helpful thing.

[11:48] Bobby Steggert: Very helpful.

[11:50] Brandon Uranowitz: That's how I got people to like me was to make them laugh. That's how I got people to want to be around me, was to make them laugh. And I still do on some level.

[12:26] Brandon Uranowitz: And then this was also a time that we're also going through puberty, we're developing hormones. It was very clear to me what I was attracted to and what I wanted to do, but that was not okay. So then I started to hook up with girls. And another thing that sort of helped my cause or solidify my role as like the funny, cool straight kid, was that when I would hook up with girls, if I could do it well enough to make them feel good, if I could do it well enough and make a girl have an orgasm, for example, then like in my weird dysfunctional brain at the time, if I could achieve that, if I could succeed there, I'm also believable as a straight person. And then if they thought that I wanted it, then they would go and tell all of their friends. They would come to my defense. Not even that they would go and be like, nice Brandon made me feel so good. Not that, but like they would come to my defense if someone said, Oh, Brandon's gay, come on.

[13:30] Bobby Steggert: It made you feel powerful, but it also protected your reputation.

[13:35] Brandon Uranowitz: Correct. Yeah. And it made me feel skillful and to take it even further, it was a distraction. If I turned it into a task, then I could distance myself from the thing. I could like separate and dissociate a little bit.

[13:51] Bobby Steggert: Were you at all attracted to these girls because it gave you a sense of control and power? Or were you really aware this was just not where you wanted to be?

[14:01] Brandon Uranowitz: I don't know that it's one or the other. There is a little bit of both. If you look back at the type of girl that I dated in that period of time, because this also followed me through when I graduated high school. Physically, the type of girl that I dated, they were athletic. They were physically broad and muscular. And so there was definitely something about them that I could convince myself was attractive, I think, that helped me. I don't want anyone to feel like they were beautiful. They are objectively beautiful people. I think that I gravitated to that I was like, oh, I can make this work on some level.

[14:44] Brandon Uranowitz: I can get myself to a place where I can convince myself that I'm attracted to certain aspects of these people that I could feel attracted to, and then hyper focus on that, probably. And then when it actually came to physical acts, then I would dissociate. That's when I really realized that I didn't want to be there. All of the other stuff and being seen with other people, I think that was really helpful for me to go along with it and avoid that fight or flight. But it was when we were intimate and alone that would all come bubbling to the surface. Yes. And literally physically pleasing other people. Giving them the reward of that and then being rewarded in a different way.

[15:50] Bobby Steggert: Hey y'all, it's Bobby. In one month's time, The Quiet Part Out Loud has become even more than I hoped. And now it's time to ask you. Who do you want to hear from? Who are you curious about? Or what part of you do you want reflected in these conversations? Head to the episode notes and follow the link to a quick survey or reach out on Instagram at Quiet Part Out Loud Pod. And thanks for listening. Were you conscious of, in terms of sexuality, but also academic success, conscious of pleasing your parents? Was that a force that was important to you?

[16:21] Brandon Uranowitz: Yes and no. My parents have always been incredibly supportive. My dad is a very staunch perfectionist. It was never the driving force, but there was a sense that you gotta be plus why wasn't it an A-kind of thing? I never really felt major disappointment. But they're my parents, and I don't know. I'm still the most nervous performing for them than for anyone else.

[16:49] Bobby Steggert: Really? Is it about wanting to please them through your work even now?

[16:53] Brandon Uranowitz: I don't know. I don't know what it is. I really I don't know. I think that's actually maybe less about people pleasing and more just imposter syndrome coming to the surface because they know me better than anyone. And so if they smell any hint of bullshit or the one false note, then they'll know that I'm playing a part or playing a character and I'm not really in it or I'm phoning it in or something, and then I feel like a fraud. So it's not necessarily about pleasing my parents and avoiding their disappointment, because I know that they're so proud of me and they tell me that they're so proud of me all the time. So I think that's more my own internal imposter syndrome. They're the litmus test for fraudulent behavior on stage.

[17:30] Brandon Uranowitz: So I think that's more that what that is. Same with Zach. Like I get very nervous when Zach comes to see me in something because he will know as soon as I tell a lie. But like stranger, I can convince. That's one of the themes that has come up repeatedly, this idea of convincing, needing to convince. And so when you're young, you're trying to convince your peers of your masculinity, of your straightness. How did that parallel with you entering into the business as a young actor and how people pleasing might have informed those earliest years?

[18:12] Brandon Uranowitz: I was still in the closet when I went to college. I went to NYU. I was at Tisch. I was in the Meisner studio. And first year Meisner work is all about breaking down your own personal internal emotional life. What makes you tick, turns you on, and what is useful for you to be in touch with your emotional life. And when I was in high school, I was like the star actor at high school. Tangentially, I didn't do any of the musicals because I thought that doing the musicals would reveal some gay part of me. I just did the plays because I could be the cool straight actor. So I went to college thinking that I was this great actor. I could play so many different types of roles. I felt emotional connection was not necessarily easy, but like a skill of mine.

And I got to Meisner, I was like, this is gonna be amazing. I'm gonna be amazing. And I went and I was still not out. I was still telling people that I slept with women and I had girls throughout high school. Meanwhile, I'm like hooking up with someone at the dorm on the sixth floor in secret. And I'm trying to do all of this emotional work, this like personal emotional work, like no character work, no text work. It's all just me and what makes me tick. Where I have to get in touch with these emotions that are not on the surface in any way related to my sexual orientation or my preferences, right? And I couldn't do any of it. I would come up against brick walls at every fucking turn. And then I started to get a panic disorder.

And I started having wild panic attacks. I ended up at the ER four times, thinking I was dying having a heart attack. And I really could not figure out why. No, no one really could figure out why. Looking inward was so terrifying that it induced panic. It would happen like in the middle of the night while I'm trying to go to sleep. Like it would just happen at random. And it got like really bad. I was throwing up all the time for no reason. I was completely dissociated. My eyes would get glassy. And finally, my parents were the ones who like pushed me to go see a neuropsychiatrist to try and figure out what was going on. We thought I was having these like aura migraines, and then it just became very clear.

And then I just got on the right medication and I started going to therapy regularly. I came out and everything started to fall into place. But I think in a roundabout way to answer your question, it became very clear over time that this need to convince people and this need to please people and make them believe something about me was starting to affect my work as an actor.

[21:09] Brandon Uranowitz: And I realized that my work as an actor up until that point was kind of bullshit. It wasn't connected. Yeah. All the energy was facing outside. None of it was facing inside. I wouldn't, oh my God, I refused. It was all outward. And so everything was a performance. And I don't know. At a certain point, it started to make me feel like a sociopath because I was like literally every second of every day I am performing, even in my most intimate moments with one other human being. I am putting on a performance. The burden of that part that had to work so hard. I feel such empathy. Did you get really good at it?

[21:52] Bobby Steggert: Oh, yeah.

[21:50] Brandon Uranowitz: Really good at it. Were there any other parts that were responding to how hard that part had to work? Was there anger? Was there a desire to completely numb and dissociate?

[22:07] Brandon Uranowitz: No, it became my entire identity. You blended with it. I literally, yeah, I turned into it. And I think now, years later, having to dismantle all of that. I'm on the flip side, and I compensate sometimes in unhelpful ways. I made my life so much about other people and who they thought I was supposed to be, that I get so hyper vigilant about protecting myself and my own identity and my authentic self that I can be hard to reach. I can not respond to text messages and things for days or weeks or months. Those parts of you are defending space that you didn't get to have before. Yeah. Carving out and defending space that did not exist before. And I had literally made a vow to myself before I left for college that I would be better off if I packaged up all of my own like personal wants, needs and desires, put them in a little bag, tied a knot, and like tossed them away because the performance of all of the things that people expect and want from me would make me happier ultimately and inevitably than actually indulging and honoring the things authentically within myself that I wanted and needed. The validation from the outside was so much more important to me than my own internal happiness that I literally convinced myself that my own internal happiness was not important.

[23:47] Bobby Steggert: To bring us up to more recent history, what happened when you got the ultimate validation in the form of a Tony and previous Tony nominations and reaching that level of success in our field? What did you learn about the validation?

[24:03] Brandon Uranowitz: I am currently in that learning process. Sure. Um very good thing, which was that the reason I think that I ultimately got these totems of validation was because of the fact that I did a lot of work on myself to know and discover who I am separate from outside validation. Starting in 2005 when I started to deal with the panic disorders and going to therapy twice a week. That work was so rigorous and robust for me that I was able, once I graduated to be very clear with myself about what I wanted creatively and artistically and what I needed to do to get it. It took a few years, but ultimately that's also when I learned to start saying no, carving out the things that I wanted and the things that felt authentic to me.

Like when it comes to acting, I realize now, having done all that work, I sort of reject this notion of being a chameleon because I think the greatest actors are those who are truly themselves in the character. It's just that character is a version of themselves. And so I started only saying yes to the things that I could dig deeply into myself and find that person, my version of that person, and do it. And that was only because I was able to put in the work to figure out who I am without external validation, without trying to be something or that I'm not.

[25:46] Bobby Steggert: Was there a turning point in terms of a project or a time in which the validation became less central?

[25:53] Brandon Uranowitz: What's really crazy, Bobby, and this is the paradox of it, and the thing that uh I struggle with perennially is there is a time in my life when the external validation became inconsequential. And immediately at the same time, I started to get a lot more external validation.

[26:17] Bobby Steggert: That's not a surprise at all. I think there's something about authenticity that people really viscerally respond to.

[26:24] Brandon Uranowitz: Yeah. So I think it was 2013. I'd made my Broadway debut. I was working a lot, but I was still saying yes to everything. Because it was early on in my career, and I was trying to be like, no, look at how wide my range is. I can do all of these different things. And I would say yes to everything. But then I like hit this slump. And again, I'm in a slump right now. And it still feels shitty. It will never not feel shitty. But I was in a slump, and that little voice in my head was like, maybe this isn't for you. Let's explore this other interest that you have, which was what I had when I was thinking of dropping out of NYU. Maybe you want to go into mental health and therapy, and it changed my life.

I was like, maybe this isn't who I am. Maybe who I am is this thing. I applied to Columbia for psychology. I got in. I was gonna go. And then I got an audition for Torch Song Trilogy down in Washington, DC, directed by Michael Kahn. It was this gay Jewish character who was a drag queen, which was also another thing that I was like as a kid obsessed with was makeup and wearing dresses and the representation and the amalgamation of everything. Going back to what we were saying before, the versions of yourself and the characters that you can bring to the surface. I was like, I am this character fully and completely. So I auditioned and I got a callback. And I remember for the callback, which was three days later, Michael wanted the entire opening monologue as part of the callback.

And that opening monologue is 10 pages long. It is massive. And again, because I felt so connected to him, and the language felt so connected to my DNA that it felt so natural in my mouth. I memorized the entire thing in a night and a day, and went in, did the callback, did the entire monologue off book with no problems, booked it in the room, and you know, went and I did it. And that's when I felt like the most. I think the need for validation was not necessarily conscious at that point because I just wanted to play this part and I just wanted to do this.

[28:44] Bobby Steggert: Well, was there something also about the material asking you to explore identity that was actually very authentic to you?

[28:51] Brandon Uranowitz: Yes. Coming out to your parents and having sort of dysfunctional gay relationships and what that's like. And within the context of being a performer, like the character is a performer. And again, not for nothing, Arnold is also a very jaded, cynical people pleaser. And that was and still is to this day, some of my best work. And it was the first time I was really like recognized for it. That is a really beautiful paradox.

[29:25] Bobby Steggert: So where are you now? Now here we are. You've achieved so many dream goals, just objectively. Where are you now at people pleasing? And where are you in response to the legacy of that?

[29:38] Brandon Uranowitz: I still find myself trapped in the people-pleasing impulses every now and then. But I also think the work that I've been doing internally to get to this place, that it's like I can at least name it when I see it or when I feel it. But there's also still that impulse to want to please the people with whom I share taste and artistic vision. And also the desire to be picked. I won't say who or what, but I was at a show recently, and I saw the director and I didn't like the show. I didn't think the show was very good. But I then also told the director how amazing I thought it was and how great I thought it was. Because ultimately they might give me a job. And I do want that job. And I do respect that person. There is this part of me that still wants to say the right thing and do the right thing so that other people let me in.

[30:40] Bobby Steggert: That's such a common thing that we all do. And yet, do you judge it? Do you have parts that wish you didn't do it?

[30:47] Brandon Uranowitz: Yeah, because I think I'm so much about authenticity and achieving true and honest authenticity was such a journey for me. I feel like I'm somehow betraying myself. It's like one of your battle cries. You really battled with people pleasing. And so now you have pendulum swung into this space where authenticity is something you really need to defend. It's very important to you.

[31:13] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[31:13] Brandon Uranowitz: And so when I feel like I'm being inauthentic, it feels like the ultimate betrayal, and it feels like I'm letting myself down it makes me feel like a hypocrite.

[31:29] Bobby Steggert: We'll be right back. So now that you're in this space where authenticity is of value, of central value, and I can imagine there's a part of you that feels very tired from the years of people pleasing. Say more about how you're responding to that history, how you are carving out space and time and authenticity for yourself now.

[31:52] Brandon Uranowitz: I'm just being very rigorous about the kinds of projects and this kinds of stories that I want to tell. So I think for me, it's just getting a little bit more specific about what I want to do. The thing about this industry, though, and I think some of the residue of the people pleaser in me is still feeling this need to move the needle in my career, trying to avoid making lateral moves.

[32:19] Bobby Steggert: You like push the needle because you want to achieve certain goals, right? There are certain levels of the game that you want to reach.

[32:25] Brandon Uranowitz: And as far as like levels go, it's happed off for me as a kid with a Tony. And I'm conditioned myself on some level to constantly want to move the needle, but I actually don't know what that means yet. Does that mean playing a lead in something, being the central character? Because everything I've done has been for the most part supporting. Does it mean being a series regular on a television show? Does it mean being in like a big movie and making hundreds of thousands of dollars? I don't know necessarily what that means because I did the thing that I wanted to do. And I'm trying to figure out at this point what makes me happy and what I actually want to do. Do I want to be a series regular on a TV show? I do because uh I'm struggling really financially right now. Um, if I'm being brutally honest, which was also just another sort of weird byproduct of winning a Tony award that has surprised me and that I'm also trying to contend with.

[33:40] Bobby Steggert: How is it a byproduct of the Tony specifically?

[33:44] Brandon Uranowitz: A byproduct of like expectation management. And I'm sure people assume this too, that now that I've done that, that I'm like I'm set. I thought that once I did that, the work would just come pouring in and I wouldn't be like not drowning in money, but I'd at least have some stability. And I'm actually, if I'm being totally honest, sort of the most financially unstable I've been in a long time.

[34:07] Bobby Steggert: I really appreciate your honesty about this. I had a different version of this, not to the same amplitude. But when you reach certain levels, your options become slimmer. And that's because of the external pressures and like you said, the pressure on your own psyche to somehow, like you say, move the needle. Um, it's just really beautifully honest of you to talk about a success that people would only dream of and to admit that there are some losses because of it.

[34:35] Brandon Uranowitz: Yeah. I'd be lying if I said otherwise. And that's not to say that things haven't changed in huge ways. They have. I enter spaces differently, more confident. It did have very positive impacts on my life. And there's also like a what you're talking about, there's an expectation not just on myself, but from other people. The whole culture around awards and accolades and things like that.

[35:02] Bobby Steggert: That's everyone else's expectations.

[35:05] Brandon Uranowitz: So I could probably go and play the lead in a show somewhere in Milwaukee or any sort of regional. I could probably, maybe not, I don't know. If they want to hire me, I don't know. I could probably do that. But again, that contradicts my own expectations for myself. And it directly contradicts the business's expectations of me. And then they have to shift. And then how do I move the needle within that context?

[35:39] Bobby Steggert: As a thought experiment, if you were able to completely eliminate the function of the people pleasing part, and you were able to be guided by the expectation simply that the story meant something to you, that the writing was good and that the story meant something to you. Would you consider doing something out of town?

[35:59] Brandon Uranowitz: Yeah, that's hard for me to answer because like I could absolutely reject the people pleaser in me in that scenario, but I'm so anxious about money right now. That's like a separate thing.

[36:12] Bobby Steggert: Yeah.

[36:13] Brandon Uranowitz: And I think it becomes like a distraction too on some level. Like I think, you know, if I were to go take an ensemble track and some show somewhere, I don't think I'd be good at it. That's the thing is I wouldn't even be able to do it well. I think it would also be a distraction from the creative path that you're on.

[36:33] Bobby Steggert: Correct. I'm I'm I'm in like a really weird spot at this moment. How are you coping outside of creativity?

[36:43] Brandon Uranowitz: I am just trying to be present with the people in my life that mean the most to me. And it's also just been, it's been such a weird time. My parents' house burned down in December. And that put things in crazy stark perspectives. But that's also been really a struggle to watch my parents be in such a vulnerable place and have to start their lives all over as they're nearing 70.

[37:10] Bobby Steggert: Did they lose all of their belongings?

[37:14] Brandon Uranowitz: Like 97% of their belongings. They were able to save a lot of meaningful things: scrapbooks, photographs, jewelry, the things that actually make a house a home. My grandmother's bedroom set, my mom's the artwork that she collected over the years, furniture that she loved were all cave dwellers, and they lost their cave. It's just been like a really tough moment for my family having to be there for them and being like so hyper-aware that means more than any of all of this other stuff has been helpful and a distraction. But yeah, creatively it's been tough. Uh it's been tough because what you were saying earlier that like when you have these big moments in your life, the expectation becomes greater from everyone else.

[38:11] Bobby Steggert: And so I actually think I could be totally wrong. But every time I see someone in the wild that works in the industry that I respect and love, they always go on about how busy I must be, which leads me to believe that people are like glossing over me potentially for certain things because there's this assumption that I'm like unavailable. I don't really know how to navigate that. But also wild is that like even now while we're having this conversation, I'm noticing that I can't help but circle back to my professional life. It's the part of life that seems to have the most uncertainty right now. And so of course that's where we circle.

[39:03] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. To end, what's most important to you right now in terms of values and in terms of what you want? What feels most important?

[39:17] Brandon Uranowitz: The thing that's most important right now is that I want my family to feel on solid ground. My parents have sacrificed so much for me. And I know that I can't like ever really tangibly physically repay them because I just can't. And so I want their happiness to be unshakable. And I know that's impossible. But the fire made that like really tough. And there was this feeling of helplessness that we all felt and that I feel. And I want to do whatever I can to make sure that they feel settled and comfortable and happy and ready to live out this last chapter of their lives.

[39:59] Bobby Steggert: And so as opposed to pleasing them, what is the goal?

[40:03] Brandon Uranowitz: I think the only thing that I can really control is making sure that they're not worried or anxious about me. And I try not to let them know my financial situation so that they don't worry about that, because also the last thing I need for them is to also feel like they need to help me when they're the ones who need the most help. So I think the thing that I can control is not to please them and make them happy, but to just let them know that I'm okay. And I am okay. I'm fine. I'll be fine.

[40:38] Bobby Steggert: How do you know that you'll be okay? What do you trust?

[40:40] Brandon Uranowitz: I think more than anything, I've learned to notice when my ego is getting in the way of things, and I've learned to take a step back, push my ego aside and lead with humility with things. So I know that I'll be okay should that thing come along, where they're like, Well, you come out here and do this thing. I can take a step back, remove my ego from it, remove expectation from it, and just do it if I really need to. I'm not above, I know about myself that I'm not above certain things. I will try and avoid all that at all costs until it becomes very clear that I can't anymore. But I do know that I'm not rigid in that.

[41:22] Bobby Steggert: And so at the end of the day, what is the value that you will live by? Taken as a whole, what is that philosophy in terms of who you want to be?

[41:33] Brandon Uranowitz: I think it's really just about authenticity again at the end of the day. And that's not just about being true to myself and my identity and who I am. It's literally like a moment-to-moment thing. If I take a look at all of the elements of my life and the things that are going on in my life at any certain moment of any day, what is most authentic to creating like a purposeful and meaningful life in that moment? And I think that changes. That's fluid. What I mean is that if on a certain day I look around and I say, I can't pay my mortgage, my parents are worried about me, X, Y, and Z, and I have this opportunity to go and do this thing, I'm gonna really look at the whole picture. What is authentic to me in that moment? How can I maintain authenticity in the crucible of all of these other elements?

[42:30] Brandon Uranowitz: It's also adaptability. It's authenticity and adaptability.

[42:34] Bobby Steggert: Yeah, yes.

[42:34] Brandon Uranowitz: I think it's actually more adaptability than it is authenticity. I think it's elasticity. It's trying to avoid the traps of the expectations around winning a Tony Award and ostensibly being at the top of your game. I think all of the stuff, the Tony nominations, the validation from the community, all of that is like the byproduct of all of the work that I've done to create the type of life I want to live. And remember and remind myself that all of that is the product of something and not the catalyst for some things. I have to remind myself that those things were not like the driving force behind their existence. They were the byproduct.

[43:23] Bobby Steggert: Yeah. If we're talking about philosophy moving forward, and what I mean by authenticity and truth is to honor what that has been for me, regardless of all of that stuff. All of those things are very shiny and very tempting. And so I want to be clear with myself about why they arrived in my lap in the first place.