This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:10] Susan Blackwell: When I bump into something that inspires me, I jump in my spark file.

[0:18] Laura Camien: Spark file to be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[0:23] Susan Blackwell: I pump it in my spark spa.

[0:26] Laura Camien: Spark five.

[0:26] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark slide.

[0:32] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark files.

[0:37] Laura Camien: Welcome to the Sparks File, where we believe that everyone is creative, but smart creative people don't go it alone.

[0:42] Susan Blackwell: I'm Susan Blackwell, and we are creativity coaches who help people fear less, create more, and bring their creative visions to life.

[0:51] Laura Camien: If you're an OG member of the Sparkfile community, welcome back, Sparkler. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome, friend. Know that just by listening to this podcast, you are joining a warm and wonderful clan of creatives.

[1:05] Susan Blackwell: But you might be asking yourself, what exactly is a sparkfile? A spark file is a place where you consistently collect all of your inspirations and fascinations.

[1:15] Laura Camien: If you're like us and you're making stuff all the time, or you want to be making stuff all the time, you know if you're not careful, your campfire of creativity can flicker out.

[1:24] Susan Blackwell: But hey, don't despair. We're collecting kindling in the form of fresh ideas, images, and inspiration that spark creativity and pique curiosity to light a fire under our collective asses to make things like this podcast.

[1:42] Laura Camien: Or a creative expression of what's going on inside and a creative approach to sharing tools with the world.

[1:50] Susan Blackwell: Ooh. Every episode, we're gonna reach into our spark files and exchange some sparks. And from time to time, we're gonna talk to some folks who spark us too.

[2:01] Laura Camien: You know what that means, everybody? That means we have more sparks than we can possibly use in this lifetime.

[2:06] Susan Blackwell: So please, we're begging you if something lights you up. Please, we encourage you to take that thing and make something out of it.

[2:17] Laura Camien: Hey, hey, hey, without further ado, let's open up the spark.

[2:22] Susan Blackwell: Spark.

[2:23] Laura Camien: Bye.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: Susie Q.

[2:27] Laura Camien: I'm excited. Your spark sounds intriguing.

[2:33] Susan Blackwell: I have got a spark for you today. Is there anything we have to say to each other before I just go on and spark you Amadeus?

[2:41] Laura Camien: I am ready for you to spark me Amadeus.

[2:44] Susan Blackwell: I really am spark, spark, spark me Amadeus. Rock me spark a Deus.

[2:51] Laura Camien: Okay. Today we're just gonna dive right into it. Today, I just want to say right off the top, I'm gonna be talking about all sorts of things relating to mental health, including several types of mental illness, treatment for mental illness, sexual assault, self-harm, and suicide.

[3:11] Susan Blackwell: So I'd like to encourage everyone to take care when listening. But I actually feel like there's so much light in this spark that one of my favorite this is a spark I'll do. This is a whole spark I'll do on a different day. One of my favorite podcasts is a podcast called Snap Judgment.

[3:29] Laura Camien: And when they do their content warnings, they say things like this is a story about grown adults. So we're gonna be talking about adult things like this. But that's how that's a story, you know, a story about being a grown adult has those elements.

[3:43] Susan Blackwell: So and I love that. I always love their content warnings because they're like, we're gonna be talking about grown-ass things. And life includes all of these things.

[3:51] Laura Camien: That's right. Yep. So Susan, I remember I if this rang a bell for you, I would be so thankful. But this has been so long ago that I have no expectations. I remember reading an article years ago. It was an interview. I'm gonna say it was probably in Premier Magazine because I had a subscription to Premier Magazine.

[4:13] Susan Blackwell: I loved that magazine. Did you have a subscription to that?

[4:16] Laura Camien: I think so. Say more.

[4:18] Susan Blackwell: Premier Magazine was a movie magazine.

[4:21] Laura Camien: Yes. I was like, it's the movie magazine?

[4:23] Susan Blackwell: Yes. I did too. I loved that magazine.

[4:26] Laura Camien: I loved it. So yeah, there was an interview with a famous film actress, a leading lady, and I can't for the life of me remember who it was. But one piece of that profile has stuck with me for years.

[4:40] Susan Blackwell: And in it, the actress made a comment about how she would never go to therapy. Her thinking was that all that unprocessed stuff within her was what she drew from to pour into her acting. And if she went to therapy and brought that stuff up and consciously processed it, she would be robbed of source material that was key to her acting.

[5:04] Laura Camien: Suze, this was a common idea in uh at a certain time in even in colleges and acting schools.

[5:14] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yes, yes. The fear of like if I get my quote unquote get my shit together, if I get healthy, I'll be boring and I won't have any ability to be a creative. If I go to the well, there'll be nothing there for me to draw upon. And what if I've had to cry in a scene? What will I?

[5:31] Laura Camien: Yes.

[5:31] Susan Blackwell: So, but I remember even 20 plus years ago, thinking when I read that, oh no, sweet person, it just seems so ill-advised and misguided to me. And I'm gonna jump my own spark here and say, I believe that an artist can be brilliant and seek mental health. And I also believe that an examined life can contribute greatly to not only one's enjoyment of life, but to one's creative work.

[6:03] Laura Camien: And I guess the rest of the spark is just proving that thesis. But there is this very old trope about that brilliant mad artist, and that to be truly brilliant, yes, you also have to suffer some type of mental illness.

[6:18] Susan Blackwell: Suze, I have in my mind a very clear picture of uh a few college friends near and dear to me who shall remain nameless, but if they are listening, they know it is them. You know who you are, that believed like I will cling to this addiction, to this dark side, to the exploration of these things that bring me pain because that suffering is what makes me creative.

[6:47] Laura Camien: Yeah. It's an old, old, old idea. I think there's a lot of evidence to support it. Uh, and I'm gonna share some of it with you now. There's a website called 1000museums.com, and they confirmed that by far the most famous example of an artist, like a fine artist with mental illness is the Dutch post-impressionist painter Vincent van Gogh.

[7:14] Susan Blackwell: So Van Gogh suffered from anxiety and depression throughout his short life. And he once wrote the saddest words ever written. I put my heart and my soul into my work and lost my mind in the process.

[7:30] Laura Camien: So we all know the story. In the fall of 1888, right before Christmas, Van Gogh was painting and working alongside Paul Gauguin in the famous Yellow House at Arles when during a fight that they were having, Vincent cut off his own entire left ear with a knife, wrapped the ear in paper, and then presented it to an employee of a nearby brothel.

[7:58] Susan Blackwell: Laura, it looks pained.

[8:00] Laura Camien: I apologize.

[8:08] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Yeah. Physical pain. But yes, I'm with you. Yeah, so they describe it on the website for the Van Gogh Museum. They describe it as one of his spells. Clearly, he was having one of his spells of intense mental illness.

[8:23] Laura Camien: So he voluntarily entered an asylum in 1889. The Starry Night, one of his most famous artworks, was inspired by a landscape situated near the asylum.

[8:35] Susan Blackwell: But on a video on the Van Gogh Museum's website, they said many people later came to view Vincent's mental illness as the true source of his creativity. However, the only time he actually painted while suffering one of his attacks was a period in the early spring of 1890.

[8:54] Laura Camien: His artistic achievement was certainly not a side effect of his illness. It was rooted in the skills of his craft, which he worked hard to develop.

[9:04] Susan Blackwell: Wow. I was watching that video, and I was like, somebody put a lot of thought into sort of debunking this myth.

[9:14] Laura Camien: Yes.

[9:15] Susan Blackwell: And de-glamorizing and it's a recurring theme. When I was researching the spark, it was this recurring theme where when people are really in the grips of mental illness, it's not productive.

[9:30] Laura Camien: There are times when people are in mania when there can be like these sorts, you know, and you can just picture a composer and composing paper flying off the piano as they, you know, fill the page with notes.

[9:41] Susan Blackwell: There's that sort of a thing. Or a writer at a typewriter and pages are flying. But most of the time, the story that I kept hearing over and over again is when one is in the grips of mental illness, a lot of that artistic and creative self-expression ceases during that time.

[10:00] Laura Camien: So I really appreciated that on their website. Well done. Well done, Van Gogh Museum.

[10:05] Susan Blackwell: Just sidebar. Have you ever been to that? Have you gone to Amsterdam before?

[10:09] Laura Camien: I've been to Amsterdam, yeah, but I did not make it to that museum.

[10:13] Susan Blackwell: Oh, yeah. I got to live there for like three weeks. It was incredible.

[10:17] Laura Camien: Yeah, we opened a show there.

[10:19] Susan Blackwell: God, Laura, your life. Your when you're like, and then I was living in Japan. Your life is beautiful.

[10:25] Laura Camien: Thank you. I love you.

[10:27] Susan Blackwell: Uh that Van Gogh Museum is gorgeous. And you can get very, or at the time when I went, you can get very close to the paintings, and it is amazing to be able to see the brush strokes and know that the brush that was connected to the hand that was connected to the man.

[10:46] Laura Camien: Oh, wow.

[10:47] Susan Blackwell: It was so beautiful. It was uh I really loved that museum.

[10:51] Laura Camien: Oh.

[10:51] Susan Blackwell: Which is saying a lot because sometimes museums um can make me feel very tired, but that one was very energizing.

[10:58] Laura Camien: But Van Gogh is not alone. There have been so many creatives working across various disciplines and in various areas who have rumbled with mental illness.

[11:08] Susan Blackwell: On the website Breaking the Stigma 2, they listed a few. Georgia O'Keeffe, in 1932, after falling far behind on a Radio City music hall mural, O'Keeffe suffered an intense nervous breakdown.

[11:22] Laura Camien: Really?

[11:23] Susan Blackwell: And it was only after a period of hospitalization and not painting for two years that she was able to rekindle her life's love of creating art.

[11:33] Laura Camien: Wow.

[11:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, very famously she was commissioned to do this mural at Radio City Music Hall, and the plaster wasn't drying fast enough for her to be able to apply the paint. And she fell far behind, and she had other extenuating circumstances happening in her personal life, and she she broke down.

[11:53] Laura Camien: And as a result, as I just said, the painting ceased.

[11:57] Susan Blackwell: Um, Paul Gauguin, who was present when Vincent Van Gogh harmed himself.

[12:01] Laura Camien: Oh boy.

[12:02] Susan Blackwell: Paul Gauguin, the French artist who at one point attempted suicide, also suffered from severe bouts of debilitating depression. Mark Rothko suffered long periods of depression earlier in life and amid ailing health, eventually took his own life.

[12:19] Laura Camien: Edvard Munch, creator of the painting The Scream, is another famous artist who was plagued with mental illness, including anxiety and hallucination.

[12:28] Susan Blackwell: And if you want to know what it feels like to be anxious and depressed, take a look at some of Edvard Munch's paintings.

[12:36] Susan Blackwell: There's a painting that he did titled Self-Portrait in Hell.

[12:41] Laura Camien: Oh, God.

[12:42] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, he really captures, I'll just speak for myself, having, you know, been anxious and pretty depressed in my life. I was like, he really captures something with those paintings and what it feels like on the inside. I think that's an amazing thing to be able to put into image what something feels like.

[13:03] Laura Camien: Yes, agreed. That's a real, real skill.

[13:06] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Michelangelo produced a huge volume of meticulous detailed work, leading some art historians to speculate that he had obsessive compulsive disorder. He also suffered from depression and anxiety, shutting himself away from the world for days at a time to work, forgetting to eat or change his clothes. The earliest biography of Michelangelo by Paolo Giovio, this was written in 1527, described Michelangelo's domestic habits as incredibly squalid.

[13:40] Laura Camien: Wow.

[13:41] Susan Blackwell: And in one of his letters to his father, Michelangelo wrote, I lead a miserable existence. I live wearied by stupendous labors and beset by a thousand anxieties. And thus I have lived for some 15 years now, those are just a few of the painters happiness have I had. When I began seeking out other creatives who have struggled with mental illness, the list is astounding. You've got actors like Vivian Lee, Adele, singers like Lady Gaga, Nina Simone, Judy Garland, poets like Mary Oliver. As conversations around mental health are destigmatized, we are seeing so many more artists step forward to discuss their mental health challenges.

[14:34] Laura Camien: And there has been a recent spate of creativity where artists are directly centering their mental health in their work.

[14:44] Susan Blackwell: Before I launch into this, I just want to stress I'm not a therapist.

[14:48] Laura Camien: Unless she's something's happened recently and surprised me.

[14:51] Susan Blackwell: Laura Camien is not a therapist.

[14:56] Laura Camien: Would you be amazing if you just held up a diploma?

[14:59] Susan Blackwell: It's like I forgot to tell you. I got my MSW from Columbia.

[15:04] Laura Camien: Congratulations. You and Bobby Stegart.

[15:08] Susan Blackwell: So the conversation we're having on this podcast should be it should not be taken as therapeutic or medical advice. We're just two opinionated ladies talking about creativity.

[15:17] Laura Camien: Yeah?

[15:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Okay. So there are three pieces, Laura, that have come out recently that center mental health. And the first that I want to talk about is Selena Gomez, Me and My Mind.

[15:30] Laura Camien: Yeah, baby.

[15:31] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, directed by Alec Cashishian.

[15:33] Laura Camien: Yep.

[15:34] Susan Blackwell: You may know that name because Alec directed Madonna's Truth or Dare back in the day.

[15:39] Laura Camien: Oh, are you serious?

[15:41] Susan Blackwell: Remember that film?

[15:43] Laura Camien: Wow.

[15:44] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So this film, Selena Gomez, Me and My Mind, spans six years of Selena Gomez's life.

[15:51] Laura Camien: Six years. That's a big project.

[15:52] Susan Blackwell: That's a big project. That's that's incredible. That shows like real commitment to wanting to share the real stuff.

[16:02] Laura Camien: She's not messing around, and I think this is going to be her life's work.

[16:07] Susan Blackwell: Oh, I love it. This this mental health and philanthropy.

[16:11] Laura Camien: God bless her.

[16:12] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. Some around mental health, some around education, and some around mental health education.

[16:17] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[16:18] Susan Blackwell: I think this is going to be her legacy.

[16:20] Laura Camien: That's thrilling because she has the ability.

[16:24] Susan Blackwell: She's she has the platform.

[16:26] Laura Camien: That's right.

[16:27] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So I'm gonna be honest with you. I didn't know a lot about Selena Gomez, but apparently she's a global star.

[16:34] Laura Camien: Did you know that or you didn't know that?

[16:37] Susan Blackwell: I don't think I knew the scale of it.

[16:39] Laura Camien: Okay.

[16:39] Susan Blackwell: If I'm honest. I feel like that she hit. Well, first of all, she was seven years old when she got her first job on Barney. And then she kind of never stopped working and started, I think, really becoming known with the wizards of Waverly Place, which is completely in a pocket of time in my life when I was completely unaware of that sort of thing.

[17:01] Laura Camien: Yeah, same.

[17:02] Susan Blackwell: Didn't watch any of that.

[17:03] Laura Camien: Yeah, but she has this sort of one of these like rolling thunder life careers where she acts, she sings, she dances, she tours, she stars in an A EP's, the hit TV show Only Murders in the Building on Hulu, for which she was nominated for an Emmy.

[17:21] Susan Blackwell: So she's one of those people that the hits just keep on coming.

[17:24] Laura Camien: Yes.

[17:25] Susan Blackwell: In her personal life, Selena Gomez has lupus. She has had kidney transplants due to lupus, just to depict how severe this has been for her. And she ended up in a psychiatric hospital in a psychotic state at one point. So that's to say how severe the mental illness piece has been.

[17:48] Laura Camien: And that was after the kidney transplant.

[17:51] Susan Blackwell: I'm gonna say I'm doing this from a little bit of memory, but I think so.

[17:55] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[17:55] Susan Blackwell: Okay. But this is what her life is like. Her mom found out about her breakdown via TMZ.

[18:03] Laura Camien: Oh.

[18:04] Susan Blackwell: Think about that.

[18:05] Laura Camien: What?

[18:06] Susan Blackwell: That is tough. That those paparazzi had a beat on where she was before her mom did. And what was going on with her? Yeah. And when she was in the psychiatric hospital, that's how Selena Gomez found out that she had bipolar disorder, which helped her to understand why she had felt so depressed and so anxious for so long.

[18:30] Laura Camien: And she tells the story in the documentary about when she was little little, she was really scared of lightning and thunder. So her mom got her books all about lightning and thunder with the idea that the more she understood what lightning and thunder were and how they occurred, that it would address some of the fear.

[18:49] Susan Blackwell: And I thought that was a great metaphor that she presented for something as stormy and seemingly mysterious as mental illness. And she says more than once in the documentary that when she understands something, it's easier for her to deal with.

[19:15] Laura Camien: What's happening, how this plane flies, and it is an attempt to help people like understand and therefore not make up stories in their head in regard to what's happening in the plane just because they don't understand what it is.

[19:31] Susan Blackwell: It is, I love that. I it's exactly what she's talking about. And you see it happen to her palpably when she's she starts during the course of the documentary, she starts to experience uh like wake up in physical pain. And you hear her in conversation with her doctor saying, I can't pronounce it, but it's like a rheumatoid medical term. And the minute she has a clear diagnosis, and therefore they can start talking about like what a treatment might be, just the palpable relief.

[20:03] Laura Camien: Wow.

[20:04] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, which makes sense to me. Uh that also when you know what you're dealing with. Knowledge is power.

[20:10] Laura Camien: Knowledge is power.

[20:11] Susan Blackwell: Yes. There's a moment in the documentary where Selena Gomez gives a speech at the McLean Psychiatric Hospital annual dinner in Boston, and she essentially gives this keynote address in front of this ballroom full of people where she comes clean about her mental health. And she says that being honest that night helped. And in the next beat in the film, she reaches out to this songwriting team and says, I think I'm ready to just say that I'm sad. And then they write a song in like 15 minutes. She says it's the fastest song she's ever written. And she continues to collaborate on writing songs using her feelings and her journal entries and her voice and her platform to let people know what's happening inside her.

[21:01] Laura Camien: And I thought that was so interesting. Like the moment when it was like, I'm ready to be honest with people, I'm ready to give this speech, I'm ready to come clean about this. That then the creativity flows.

[21:13] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I thought that was beautiful.

[21:15] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[21:16] Susan Blackwell: That's a great observation. It was my perception watching the film that that is a real driver for her, as it is for so many of us, to order one's thoughts and feelings, and then share it out in the hopes that people will understand what is going on inside. And by doing so, hopefully helping others understand what's going on inside of themselves. And further to that, throughout the film, she talks about this spark. She has this really clear spark. And she's simultaneously, I think, excited by it and afraid of it. But it's this spark to create and implement mental health curriculum for US school kids.

[22:03] Laura Camien: Wow.

[22:04] Susan Blackwell: That her position is sort of like we learn about a little bit in kindergarten, like happy, sad, angry. Like we learn a little bit about the foundational building blocks of emotions, and then that's it. And her feeling is sort of like if there could be regular curriculum in the US schools about mental health.

[22:27] Laura Camien: Oh my god.

[22:28] Susan Blackwell: That's her jam. And I think it's a great spark. That is life changing for individual kids. That is world changing, like for our country. The difference I think that could make for the entire culture.

[22:43] Laura Camien: That's huge.

[22:45] Susan Blackwell: Good for her.

[22:46] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[22:46] Susan Blackwell: You see her, you see her express in the film how scared she is of it and how she feels like she doesn't have what it would take to accomplish that. But the spoiler alert, the last cards in the film say in 2020, Selena created the Rare Impact Fund to raise 100 million dollars to provide free mental health resources for young people. In May of 2022, Selena and the Rare Impact Fund hosted the first ever youth action forum on mental health in coordination with the White House.

[23:20] Laura Camien: Wow.

[23:21] Susan Blackwell: Selena met with the president and discussed the creation of a mental health curriculum for the nation's schools.

[23:27] Laura Camien: Wow.

[23:27] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, you better get it, Selena Gomez.

[23:31] Laura Camien: Wow, she's impressive.

[23:33] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. How impressive.

[23:35] Laura Camien: Yeah, it's really something.

[23:37] Susan Blackwell: And I felt deeply for her in that I'm going rogue here for a moment, just sort of going off the spark to say I had a lot of empathy towards her in this film because she has been working since she was seven and sort of seemingly nonstop. And just grinding really, really hard. And you know, when you're in a position like that, you're surrounded by people whose livelihood is all invested in you continuing to like stay. And and I was, I just hope that she continues to take good care of herself and to prioritize rest, is the thing that I kept thinking. And then I thought of us and I was like, take your own medicine, Susan.

[24:31] Laura Camien: So rest.

[24:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Um, another piece that touches on someone's mental health is a new Netflix stand-up special that I loved called Blocks by Neal Brennan.

[24:45] Laura Camien: I think that I have talked about Neal Brennan on this podcast before.

[24:49] Susan Blackwell: He did a great Netflix comedy special called Three Mics.

[24:53] Laura Camien: Yes.

[24:53] Susan Blackwell: That I I wish that I had thought of. Neal Brennan was Dave Chappelle's writing partner on Chappelle's show. And the title Blocks refers to several things, including the colorful blocks that are on the wall of the set behind him. It's one of the most inventive stand-up sets I have ever seen.

[25:11] Susan Blackwell: And it was designed by Broadway designer Anna Luizas. You know and love her work from In the Heights and Avenue Q. And I was so proud of Anna. No claim to Anna, but so proud of Anna. The set was so inventive and unlike anything I have ever seen before. And I was just when her name came up at the end, designed by Anna Luisa's screamed. I was so excited for her.

[25:40] Laura Camien: That's thrilling.

[25:41] Susan Blackwell: It's really a triumph. It's really beautiful. Yeah, just you've you've never seen anything like it in a stand-up special. It was really, really unique. In his work, Neil pulls off what I perceive as a comic feat. He is wildly funny, and he pulls no punches about the pain that he's in. Talk about writing like your parents are dead. He talks about it. Like he in both the specials that I just named, he gets into it. He also explicitly documents his treatment to address his mental illness. And did I mention he's wildly funny? Like it is just that's that's balancing a lot.

[26:19] Laura Camien: Yeah, it uh it's amazing. Holy crap.

[26:22] Susan Blackwell: So Blocks was directed for the stage by the magician Derek Delgadio, who you might know his name because Derek Delgadio created in and of itself. Yep, in and of itself played off Broadway, and you can also watch that on Hulu. And no spoilers, but I was super excited to see a little bit, a little sprinkling of magic in Neal Brennan's special blocks. Neal Brennan and Derek Delgadio were clearly sparked by something that we talked about on the Chiadoscuro episode of this podcast. I don't want to say more than is necessary, no spoilers, but they were clearly inspired by the art of Kumi Yamashita. And I encourage you to watch that Netflix special Blocks and enjoy that.

[27:13] Laura Camien: A teaser, a cliffhanger.

[27:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yeah.

[27:17] Laura Camien: I'll watch Blocks.

[27:18] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So Blocks, Neal Brennan, Netflix, and our third artist centering mental health is Jonah Hill.

[27:26] Laura Camien: Oh.

[27:26] Susan Blackwell: And Stutz, Stutz is a new documentary that Jonah Hill directed. It is a very interesting film. I've never seen anything quite like it. Laura Camien, have you watched Stutz?

[27:40] Laura Camien: I've watched some of the trailers, and then I knew that you were claiming it as a spark.

[27:45] Susan Blackwell: That's how it works around here. It's we call dibs. I claim that spark.

[27:49] Laura Camien: Dibs.

[27:50] Susan Blackwell: Dibs on that. So you called dibs on it. So I was like, I'm gonna wait. So I would be fresh for your spark.

[27:57] Laura Camien: Well, I appreciate it, but I'm excited for you also to dig into this.

[28:03] Susan Blackwell: I first heard about this film back in August of 2022 when Jonah Hill released an open letter on deadline.com that read, and I'm gonna read the whole thing. So just sit down, give it to us, get yourself a cool, refreshing drink. Here we go. I have finished directing my second film, a documentary about me and my therapist, which explores mental health in general called Stutz. The whole purpose of making this film is to give therapy and the tools I've learned in therapy to a wide audience for private use through an entertaining film.

[28:38] Laura Camien: Sidespark.

[28:39] Susan Blackwell: When I read that, I was I was like, this is going to be interesting. And I tucked it into my spark pile. Uh-huh. Yeah. Because I was like, you did what, Jonah Hill? So Jonah Hill goes on. Through this journey of self-discovery within the film, I have come to the understanding that I have spent nearly 20 years experiencing anxiety attacks, which are exacerbated by media appearances and public facing events. I am so grateful that the film will make its world premiere at a prestigious film festival this fall, and I can't wait to share it with the audiences around the world in the hope that it will help those struggling. However, you won't see me out there promoting this film or any of my upcoming films while I take this important step to protect myself.

If I made myself sicker by going out there and promoting it, I wouldn't be acting true to myself or to the film. I usually cringe at letters or statements like this, but I understand that I am of the privileged few who can afford to take time off. I won't lose my job while working on my anxiety. With this letter and with Stutz, I'm hoping to make it more normal for people to talk and act on this stuff so they can take steps towards feeling better and so that the people in their lives might understand their issues more clearly. I hope the work will speak for itself, and I'm grateful to my collaborators, my business partners, and to all reading this for your understanding and support, Jonah Hill.

[30:04] Laura Camien: So I remember that letter. I was taken by that last part, just the part of saying, like, and I'm gonna step off this crazy ride because I need to. And I was just like, damn, that's impressive.

[30:15] Susan Blackwell: Damn.

[30:16] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[30:16] Susan Blackwell: I also, Laura, I found that very sparky and very impressive. Identifying the parts of your creative life that you are hell's yes about.

[30:26] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[30:26] Susan Blackwell: And the parts that you are hell's no about and seeing if it might actually be possible to separate that out. You see Selena Gomez rumbling with that too. In her film, clearly, promotion work is not a source of life force for her. It drains her of life. And she even says at one point, I'm not doing this anymore. I mean, uh that that is the thing. It's actually truly magical when we will like be working with someone and talk through those hells yes and those question marks and bless and release. And when you come to realize you may have more power than you think in blessing and releasing certain aspects of things that you just, you know, aren't healthy for you.

[31:19] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[31:19] Susan Blackwell: And would be better if you did not do them anymore. Uh-huh. It's a revolutionary idea, and it's thrilling that he's like leading the way, leading the charge in a lot of this conversation. I feel like, yeah, I hope that it emboldens other people. And I'm not just talking about movie stars or people who I mean, if you're listening to this podcast, I'm talking to you. I think I certainly have clung to this narrative. Sometimes we think it's not possible to separate some of these distinctions apart because it's quote unquote just the way things are done. But I think sometimes if you're creative, you can you can segment out what parts of sharing your work are enlivening to you and what parts are killing you softly and then use those distinctions to make choices that work for you.

[32:12] Laura Camien: You know what, Laura, you have talked about this in terms of marketing that really speaks to your values, but I think I am sparked to share more curriculum on this because it is such a pain point for people creating at all different levels. And I think it's worth exploring more. I was just reading uh and I apologize to the person who posted this because I I did not know this person and I don't remember their name but it I was just scrolling on LinkedIn and this woman had posted about how she has a sleep disorder and in her previous job she had been told repeatedly that she was unstable and unreliable and and this was really they had zero compassion for you know what she was dealing with in her life.

And she made some choices made some changes and now works for a client who understands like they won't see her in the mornings. She will work from you know midday into the evenings, and she it's not like she's not working, but suddenly she's like, I'm among people who appreciate the the value that I bring to the table, my skills and talents, and it does not matter what time of day they have compassion for what I need to work around in my life because of something I'm dealing with. And it's remarkable that she felt empowered to make that change. And as we're saying, like so many of us could, it's just it might not feel like we can, but we can.

[33:47] Laura Camien: Yeah, I think it's a very creative act to examine these things and parse them and get creative about potential solutions and paths.

[34:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. It occurs to me just now while I'm saying this, I want to thank Hannah Marie Marcus who resurfaced the spark of Stutz in our Blaze thread because I feel like Hannah is the one that re-invigorated this.

[34:14] Laura Camien: Hannah did, yes.

[34:15] Susan Blackwell: And thank you, Hannah Marie. But I think a number of our clients posted about it, which is what caused us to the flurry of dibs calling on our part, because we know, like when our clients say, ooh, ooh, ooh, this, this, like we both know, like, oh, let's look into that. Um, and I I feel like Lou and I feel like Carrie. Yeah, I just feel like it was shared with us. Thanks you beautiful sparklers. Sparklers, thank you so much.

[34:42] Laura Camien: So back to Stutz. While Selena Gomez and Neal Brennan are sharing out what it feels like inside of them and pouring it into their art, and Selena Gomez's case pouring it into the her activism. Jonah Hill is doing something interesting with the documentary Stutz because he's introducing his actual therapist to viewers and providing some very actionable therapeutic tools to anyone who has access to a Netflix account.

[35:14] Susan Blackwell: Can I pause and ask you how do they handle, you know how we always say we're not therapists? Um, and that is because we wouldn't want someone to take anything we say as any kind of clinical advice or medical advice.

[35:29] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[35:29] Susan Blackwell: Um, how do they handle that in the film where it's like this what I'm saying to Jonah Hill may or may not relate to you, viewer, because I have not diagnosed you.

[35:42] Laura Camien: I don't remember any sort of disclaimers. They could be there, and I just maybe I looked down. I'm not sure. But it was almost like a book where you know how in a book, and Phil Stutz has written, co-written a uh book called The Tools, that is another great resource for folks who are so inclined. But it's sort of like here's a set of tools. If you care to engage in them, you can.

[36:09] Susan Blackwell: I have in preparing for this listened to extensive interviews with Phil Stutz, who is centered in this documentary, and he makes it very clear that ideally you could work on this with a therapist.

[36:25] Laura Camien: But for people who would not have access to this otherwise, got it.

[36:30] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. I think it was a way for Jonah Hill to say, I am a movie star who has a big budget for mental health care. And for people who don't, I just for people who are suffering. I just want to get these therapeutic tools out to folks. Let me give this to you. And I and it sounds like those tools are no harm done. Like it no matter what the diagnosis, if you feel like this tool might be good for you and you implement it, it's safe.

[36:57] Laura Camien: It's essentially safe, yeah.

[36:59] Susan Blackwell: I think so. I mean, there's they're so it's all about like um, you know, visualizations and uh pictur a loving connection with another being. So they feel sort of safe. I don't think anything is a panacea. And for someone who is really struggling with debilitating mental illness in various forms, obviously a Netflix special isn't going to be enough. But I can imagine watching it, I was like, oh, if you simply decided to be like, okay, I'm on my couch, I'm gonna shut my eyes, I'm gonna follow along with Jonah Hill and Phil Stutz, or you return to it when you needed it. We could open some doors for you. Like you said, giving you a little bit of access to something can demystify it.

[37:49] Susan Blackwell: It can let you know if, like, oh, this feels good. This might be something I want to prioritize above something else that I do.

[37:56] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[37:56] Susan Blackwell: Also, fun fact, they use Errol Morris's Interatron, which I talked about on the full Sempacu sparks.

[38:05] Laura Camien: Amazing.

[38:06] Susan Blackwell: On this great podcast, there's a lot of it looks like you're sitting across the way it's filmed. It looks like you're sitting directly across looking into the eyes of Phil Stutz or Jonah Hill.

[38:17] Laura Camien: Wow.

[38:17] Susan Blackwell: Nathan and I were watching it, and I was like, that's an Enteratron. And at the end, they were like Interatron operators in the credits. And I was like, woo-hoo! SparkFile forever.

[38:26] Laura Camien: How many Interatrons? Like, do you think they're hard to come by in Teratrons?

[38:30] Susan Blackwell: I don't. I feel like to rent a real Interatron with an operator. I remember when I did that Sparks, it was something like, oh, was it $2,000 a day or something like that?

[38:42] Laura Camien: Oh, okay.

[38:43] Susan Blackwell: But also on that, if I'm remembering correctly, on that episode, I found how you can make your own Interatron with iPads and video cameras.

[38:53] Laura Camien: Wow.

[38:53] Susan Blackwell: You know, I watched all of these things that I just talked about, and I thought, what a different time we live in. What if people like Nina Simone and Judy Garland had access to the information and therapeutic support that they needed? What if they could have consciously put their mental health into their work? And not only that, received informed support. What if? What if, what if?

[39:23] Laura Camien: Well, I can hear, you know, some people would say, oh, then they probably wouldn't have had the careers. They probably would have gotten healthy and stepped away.

[39:31] Susan Blackwell: Like disagree.

[39:32] Laura Camien: I do too.

[39:33] Susan Blackwell: I'm just saying back to your original idea is like there are those people that would say that, but yeah, that trope.

[39:40] Laura Camien: We disagree.

[39:41] Susan Blackwell: We disagree.

[39:43] Laura Camien: We disagree.

[39:44] Susan Blackwell: So a few what do we make of it? If you're anything like these three creatives, you are collaborating with people to share your experience with mental health and potential solutions with the world. And on that point, I have to say, thing that I loved about each of these pieces is that their voices are going to connect with different people.

[40:08] Laura Camien: Oh.

[40:08] Susan Blackwell: So I could imagine like Selena Gomez's documentary is very Alec Kashishi and Selena Gomez. Like it has a very specific flavor to it, and it's presented in a very specific way. And Jonah Hill's documentary, Stutz is very Jonah Hill, and that's gonna reach those fans and those viewers.

[40:34] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[40:34] Susan Blackwell: Different people. And those people who have Netflix subscriptions. And Neil Brennan's is gonna reach other folks. Neal Brennan's, did I mention how honest his is? I was by the end of that, I was like, oh my gosh, it's so honest. And I just love that between just those three, and they're not the only artists doing this work, but they're the ones I'm featuring in this spark. The nets that they are casting are reaching people. And I thought that was really, really exciting.

[41:06] Laura Camien: Yeah. What what else do we make of it? We often say if you have to live through something, you might as well make something out of it. If you have to live through something, you get to choose. You might want to make something out of it. And to balance that, we also ascribe to the Glennon Doyle concept of creating from a scar, not an open wound. All three of these creatives that we've focused on today have put a lot of time and energy into addressing their mental health before putting it into their art and sharing it with the world.

[41:37] Susan Blackwell: Boy, does that make a difference? I mean, you really can feel when someone is sharing from an open wound versus sharing from a scar.

[41:46] Laura Camien: You sure can.

[41:47] Susan Blackwell: It's so so evident.

[41:49] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[41:50] Susan Blackwell: It's the difference between, you know, watching someone essentially like have some kind of break or meltdown. And as you're listening, you're worried for them.

[42:02] Laura Camien: Yeah.

[42:03] Susan Blackwell: Versus realizing, oh, this is a person who has had a break of some kind and had an experience that they want to share with us so that we might all learn from it.

[42:14] Laura Camien: Yeah. I, to your earlier point, I think if Judy Garland had gotten the informed support, maybe she would have been around a lot longer, healthy for a lot longer, and you know, as they say in Sunday in the Park with George, given us more to see. What work might we have seen from these wonderful artists had they gotten healthy and stuck around?

[42:39] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely. I want to say what I said at the beginning, and I think I speak for Laura Camien too. We deeply believed that an examined life can contribute greatly, not only to one's enjoyment of life, but to one's creative work. So this is a poem that I first heard at a funeral for a friend, an artist who had taken their own life after a long struggle with mental illness. And this poem grapples with themes of life and suffering and the relationship between creativity and mental health. It was written by Mary Oliver, and on the website you Haverhill.org, I learned that Mary Oliver was institutionalized for a time, and she was moved by the pain of a number of artists who died young or took their own lives.

In this poem, she writes about them. And Mary Oliver dedicated her book, American Primitive that won the Pulitzer to James Wright, whose poetry, though dark, gave her joy and a lifeline in her own dark times. So this is the writing of Mary Oliver after she had done the hard work. She had done time in the institution to work on her mental health, and it's called Members of the Tribe by Mary Oliver.

[44:06] Susan Blackwell: Ahead of me, they were lighting their fires in the dark forests of death. Should I name them? Their names make a long branch of sound. You know them. I know death is the fascinating snake under the leaves, sliding and sliding. I know the heart loves him too, can't turn away, can't break the spell. Everything wants to enter the slow thickness, aches to be peaceful finally, and at any cost, wants to be stone. That time I wanted to die. Somebody was playing piano in the room with me. It was Mozart. It was Beethoven. It was Bruckner. In the kitchen, a man with one ear was painting a flower. Later in the asylum, I began to pick through the red rivers of confusion. I began to take apart the deep stitches of nightmares.

That was good human work. This had nothing to do with laying down a path of words that could throttle or soften the human heart. Meanwhile, Yates, in love and anger, stood beside his fallen friends. Whitman kept falling through the sleeve of ego. In the backfields, beyond the locked windows, a young man who couldn't live long and knew it was listening to a plain brown bird that kept singing in the deep leaves that kept urging from him some wild and careful words. You know that important and eloquent defense of sanity. I forgive them their unhappiness. I forgive them for walking out of this world. But I don't forgive them for turning their faces away, for taking off their veils and dancing for death, for hurtling toward oblivion on the sharp blades of their exquisite poem, saying, This is the way.

[46:38] Laura Camien: Always comes back to Mary, doesn't it?

[46:40] Susan Blackwell: It always comes back to Mary Oliver.

[46:44] Laura Camien: Wow.

[46:45] Susan Blackwell: That was beautiful. If you are in the United States and you need immediate mental health support, you know you can call or text 988, and you will be connected to a trained counselor.

[47:01] Laura Camien: 988 if you need it.

[47:03] Susan Blackwell: Cams, that's my spark.

[47:05] Laura Camien: Suze, this was so sparkish. You warned us about the potential darkness of the topic, and you ultimately were so right. It's light and full of hope and full of progress and full of generosity and transparency. These artists who are determined to share their knowledge, share their experience, and help pave a smoother path for those who come next.

[47:40] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. In this life, there will be suffering and there will be pain, but we do not have to be excruciated by mental illness. There's so much support available. And we don't have to subscribe to this trope that you have to be in the clutches of mental illness and tortured by it to be a wonderful, self-expressed creative artist.

[48:05] Laura Camien: So amen.

[48:07] Susan Blackwell: Let's let's retire that one.

[48:10] Laura Camien: Let's retire that one.

[48:12] Susan Blackwell: All right. So it shall be done. Thank you for this.

[48:15] Laura Camien: Your sweet baby cams. I think that's it. This episode of The Spark File was made on the lands of the Lenape people. And as always, we really do hope it put another bunch of spots in your file. Listen, if there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you'd like to learn more about how to coach with us to bring your creative ideas to life, email us at the sparkfile at gmail.com or submit it through our website, the sparkfile.com.

[48:44] Susan Blackwell: And you know what? We will happily take your feedback. But you know the price of admission. First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[48:55] Laura Camien: You can follow us on social at the sparkfile and be sure to subscribe, rate, and five star review this podcast if you're so moved. It really does help other listeners to find us. Also, if you like this podcast, we hope that you'll share it with people that you care about. And if you didn't like it, you can process it with your analyst.

[49:16] Susan Blackwell: Oh, nice, Suze. I like that tie in.

[49:19] Laura Camien: Take it up with them.

[49:22] Susan Blackwell: If something lights you up and gets your creative sparks flying, you know that we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door. It's your turn to take that spark and fan it into a flame. You know you gotta take it and make it make it make it.

[49:46] Laura Camien: Bye.

[49:47] Susan Blackwell: Bye.

[49:48] Laura Camien: When I bumped into something that inspires me, I dump it in the spark file.

[49:56] Susan Blackwell: Scar be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be. I pump it in the spark five.

[50:02] Laura Camien: Spark.

[50:07] Susan Blackwell: I jump into my spark five.

[50:12] Laura Camien: Let's open up the spark five.