This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Susan Blackwell: This is part two of our interview with Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson-Lopez.

[0:04] Laura Camien: You might want to go back, get part one to listen or not. However, you're doing it, you're doing it right. Enjoy the show.

[0:09] Susan Blackwell: The Spark File podcast may contain profanity and other adult content. Please use your discretion.

[0:19] Bobby Lopez: When I bumped into something that inspires me, I jump in my sparks. I pump it in my sparks. I jump into my sparks.

[0:42] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Let's open up the sparks.

[0:46] Bobby Lopez: By the time I was in college, I was pretty burned out already. And I wasn't, I really didn't have any kind of plan or any shows that anybody wanted to do. Interesting. So for me, it was a lot of doubt, and there was a moment I joined the BMI workshop. Alan Mencken came and did a master class, and I did a couple of songs from this project that I was doing, and he just, I don't know, the mood wasn't right, it didn't spark, and he kind of laid into them. So that was my moment of like, should I? I can't even, I can't do this. I'm not good. I threw that project away. And that's when I started collaborating.

[1:29] Laura Camien: So was it when you started linking with collaborators that it was that key turn for you, and you started to enjoy it again a little bit?

[1:39] Bobby Lopez: Yes, that's what happened. And it was because I was literally thinking this is for fun. I started writing a project with Jeff Marks.

[1:48] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[1:48] Bobby Lopez: We wrote a really silly, subversive thing.

[1:55] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Uh-huh.

[1:56] Bobby Lopez: No, it wasn't that one.

[1:57] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Wasn't that?

[1:58] Bobby Lopez: We sang this at a thing, didn't we? Hansel and Gretel in Disneyland.

[2:01] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And it was sort of an adaptation where Hansel and Gretel run away from an abusive uncle.

[2:09] Bobby Lopez: But it had a song. It had a song that was like, "Don't give Disney your brain." And guess what we did?

[2:11] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Don't give Disney your brain.

[2:19] Bobby Lopez: It's a lovely place to visit, but not to remain.

[2:26] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[2:27] Bobby Lopez: So yeah, and it was just for fun. And I actually had fun, and that showed through. And I learned so much from working with Jeff.

[2:37] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Can I just jump in with an insight here for a second?

[2:42] Bobby Lopez: Yeah.

[2:43] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I am wondering if your mom on some level was always a collaborator with you when you were doing stuff.

[2:51] Bobby Lopez: Like Deep Man.

[2:53] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: No, it is deep. I'm interested. Tell me more.

[2:57] Bobby Lopez: It only occurred to me when you were like, I just didn't, I wasn't feeling it in college. That was when you went off to write alone.

[3:04] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[3:04] Bobby Lopez: Without your mom.

[3:06] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Absolutely right.

[3:08] Bobby Lopez: Without your mom being there. Because his mom was such a supporter and such a sounding board and such a, you know, just huge, huge vessel of warmth and cheerleading.

[3:21] Laura Camien: And you know what? I bet all these novels that are on the shelves, like there are, there's a mom or someone who are just providing all of that echo.

[3:31] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: A discussion part, exactly.

[3:33] Bobby Lopez: There were collaborators there.

[3:34] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[3:35] Bobby Lopez: And I think that that was a lesson.

[3:36] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's interesting.

[3:37] Bobby Lopez: People who claim sole authorship are just entitled.

[3:43] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Nobody does anything alone.

[3:45] Bobby Lopez: But I don't think anybody does things alone. And I'm now putting it together like I sort of played that bouncing off role and cheerleader for you in the early part of your career.

[3:54] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: For sure.

[3:54] Bobby Lopez: Kristen was there. We'd go for long walks and I'd be giving dramaturgical suggestions and saying, like, you know, Avenue Q is about, it sounds to me like it's about what happens when you realize you're not special.

[4:08] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[4:08] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[4:09] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Shut up.

[4:11] Bobby Lopez: So it's not it. Now we know each other.

[4:13] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Just now, and we have been saying leading, like breaking that story and leading to the place where you actually can go, now shut up and I'm gonna write.

[4:22] Bobby Lopez: That's right. You know what I mean? Because that's what we're all trying to get to.

[4:25] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, it takes a while sometimes.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: Bobby, to this point, you've partnered with some strong creative personalities. You talked about Jeff Marks, Jeff Whitty on Avenue Q, Trey Parker and Matt Stone on Book of Mormon. Kristen, you're a strong, confident presence as well. Bobby, in my experiences, you are very kind, sweet, but smart.

[4:51] Bobby Lopez: But a little, it's tricky because you look like a Campbell soup kid all thrown up.

[4:56] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: He looks like an angry Campbell soup kid though, because of his eyebrows.

[5:00] Bobby Lopez: So I always used to say he, when he was like, soup is cold, that like he was like, people don't come up to me and they're not friendly to me unless I wear a mask on Halloween, and then people are so giving me.

[5:05] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And we tried to break it down.

[5:15] Bobby Lopez: When I'm a Ghostbuster, they're like, yeah, man.

[5:20] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yes.

[5:21] Bobby Lopez: They're drawn.

[5:22] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And I was like, maybe it's the eyebrows.

[5:24] Bobby Lopez: Like his eyebrows, um, are they have so you immediately shaved them.

[5:28] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, yeah.

[5:29] Bobby Lopez: And that's why you look the way you look at it.

[5:32] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: How do you, but I have to say, like, you have been part of such powerful creative collaboration.

[5:37] Bobby Lopez: That's right. How do you live in those?

[5:40] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I one of the things I'll also sidebar by saying one of the things I love so much about you is I love people who are wildly successful and also sane, kind, balanced, which you both are. And I'm just wondering how do you live in those creative collaborations with strong creative personalities?

[6:01] Bobby Lopez: Well, all those people are kind. All those people, they're not, none of them are browbeating at all. I love Jeff Marks. And Jeff Marks can be formidable. He's always been a sweet, sweet kitten to me, but I know that he can be formidable. He can, but he's kind when you're working together. He listens and he tries everything. He taught me a lot of those principles, actually.

[6:24] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And Trey Parker is very strong and loves to hog the pen, but he's super kind and super nice, and um, and listens, and you know, there's a lot of back and forth.

[6:37] Bobby Lopez: He just likes to do the drafting, and then it's a sort of a, but Bobby sits at the piano. I mean, the thing that with all the superpower with all of these collaborations, Bobby's the one at the piano, so he holds the musical pen.

[6:52] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's right.

[6:53] Bobby Lopez: And so it gives him a huge amount of power. Ultimately, you can talk and talk and talk, you can write the words all you want, but at some point, somebody's gonna play the music.

[6:55] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Somebody's gonna play the music, and that's when Bobby's like, Bob is at the wing. Wait, where's Bobby? Oh shit, he's writing the music. God damn it.

[7:12] Laura Camien: There is a measure of control and contribution in that though, isn't there?

[7:17] Bobby Lopez: Because nobody can, any of the other people that I just mentioned could they?

[7:21] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yes, they could.

[7:21] Bobby Lopez: They mean Jeff, Jeff can play not like you, baby.

[7:25] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Not like you, Bobby.

[7:26] Bobby Lopez: Trey, Trey can play. Kristen doesn't play, but she wants to.

[7:30] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I play a mean flute.

[7:34] Bobby Lopez: Very hard to sing and play the flute at the same time.

[7:37] Laura Camien: That partnership element that you talked about earlier, the communication. Like, do you have that with all your collaborators? Is that a, is that like a baseline? Like, I need someone that I can do this with and really hear me?

[7:52] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I wish I could say that all our collaborations are that healthy. There are some that we can have that pick up that phone and say, like, we had a rough day and we need to talk about something, and we can have those conversations.

[8:07] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, there are others that there's not that.

[8:12] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um, not I'm thankful to, I'm thankful to hear that.

[8:15] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, I mean, it's a different thing with directors, right? Directors are um in a different place then, and sometimes they just don't want you to have that conversation with you.

[8:27] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um, they don't have time or the interest, right?

[8:29] Bobby Lopez: We just have to do it. Book writers, hopefully, like when everyone we're working with right now, we have that. Everyone we're working with right now, and we've learned now like if you start to get to that place where you couldn't pick up the phone and say, we need to talk about how we are doing it, yeah.

[8:48] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's when it starts to get toxic, and that's when inevitably it's gonna break down in some way.

[8:55] Bobby Lopez: Um, and luckily we haven't had too many of those, but yeah, um that's a scary place to be sure with like years of work.

[9:04] Laura Camien: Do you find that you have a willingness to pull that plug if you need to? Like this really isn't working, or are you like, uh I'm gonna make this work? I'm gonna muscle through.

[9:14] Bobby Lopez: Um, it depends.

[9:17] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, these are some high stakes players.

[9:19] Bobby Lopez: These are some big rollers right here.

[9:22] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: There's some big wave riders, yeah.

[9:25] Bobby Lopez: You are, you do these very like highly visible, like high pressure jobs, yeah.

[9:31] Laura Camien: Right.

[9:32] Bobby Lopez: But the ones that, I mean, they're only high pressure when they get green lit. The ones that are under the radar, um, there's always a vetting process there.

[9:41] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[9:41] Bobby Lopez: And the ones that fall apart because of not seeing eye to eye or not being able to just hear each other, they don't get to the, we won't know about them.

[9:50] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: They don't rise, interesting.

[9:52] Bobby Lopez: They don't rise to the big wave level.

[9:54] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[9:54] Bobby Lopez: Um, which is a shame because some of the, some of the things we've written, some of our favorite songs we've ever written have been for projects that died on the vine.

[10:04] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um, that I mean, everybody has trunk songs, but uh, and some people know how to recycle them.

[10:10] Bobby Lopez: We're trying to get better at it.

[10:11] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: At saying, like, you know, that thing we wrote for that thing, let's just kick some sand over it and get it.

[10:18] Bobby Lopez: Does that ever work?

[10:19] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Does it work?

[10:20] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, yeah.

[10:21] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Can it melodically and like energetically if there are similar moments, right?

[10:27] Bobby Lopez: It can totally work.

[10:28] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um, if it's, if the song was really written to like a very specific solve a pro, yeah, problem, or then not so much.

[10:37] Bobby Lopez: No.

[10:37] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Right.

[10:38] Bobby Lopez: Yeah.

[10:39] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Intricate musical scenes, probably not.

[10:41] Bobby Lopez: But um, but there might be a figure jingles, yeah.

[10:46] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um, those can, those can be reused.

[10:48] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, like we did a podcast. We wrote the theme song for um Mamas Talkin Loud, the Broadway baby mama's podcast.

[10:58] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And that was something that died.

[11:00] Bobby Lopez: Uh, um like and we just would make they said that.

[11:03] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Have we got a jiggle for you?

[11:06] Bobby Lopez: I love that.

[11:06] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I'm really curious. I feel like I keep going with these sort of dark questions, but there's a reason for that.

[11:11] Bobby Lopez: We're dark.

[11:12] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: We bring out your darkness.

[11:14] Bobby Lopez: Ever since I stepped in here.

[11:16] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: But we're fascinated, and I think a lot of our listeners are fascinated, um, with just the idea of how you process failure or perceived failure.

[11:26] Bobby Lopez: Because like we just mentioned, like we don't hear about that. And meanwhile, when you're going through it, you're feeling all the feelings and sometimes feeling devastated by it, or I'll never recover from this.

[11:39] Bobby Lopez: Um, has that ever happened to you? Have you had any of the things? Have we ever had failure?

[11:44] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Oh, yeah. I think there's different kinds of failure.

[11:49] Bobby Lopez: Who's gonna answer this question? I'm so eager to talk about failure.

[11:56] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: No, you go.

[11:59] Bobby Lopez: Um, how about we take turns? How about we take turns? How did you do a word and you do it?

[12:06] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um, I just, I guess there's failure that you that one perceives like, ooh, we didn't hit the bar that we set for ourselves. And then there's failure that comes in the form of a critic taking something that you felt was really working, yeah, and not understanding it or not seeing it.

[12:28] Bobby Lopez: So that's a great distinction.

[12:30] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah. There's, you know, those failures that you can feel happen before they happen. Um, that you were like, why did I let it get to that? Why didn't I speak up or why didn't I do something? And then there's the just dealing with like, actually, I thought that really worked, and I was really moved, but so and so, the white male that just weighed in that. Like, we talk about that in terms of like who holds the measuring stick for your success.

[13:00] Bobby Lopez: Um, do you find that you're able to stick with your original, like, I felt good about that? I'm proud of that song, or do you hand that measuring stick over to someone else and they determine the success of that song or that work?

[13:16] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I'm trying to get much better about knowing, like, I feel like I don't want to get into the next decade and not have my own eyes and see through my own eyes.

[13:27] Bobby Lopez: Yeah.

[13:27] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Because I can very easily give my eyes away.

[13:30] Bobby Lopez: Sure.

[13:30] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Uh, and suddenly, uh, I just see myself through the white male that's weighing in on my female work.

[13:30] Bobby Lopez: That's right.

[13:41] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And, you know, just learning how to, and that there's this wonderful body of women playwrights and writers also who have come and risen up to speak out about what it means to have your work go through this tiny little small idea of what a successful female-driven project can be or look like.

[14:07] Bobby Lopez: Yep.

[14:08] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: So, like Sarah Ruhl, last time that I had to deal with some hard criticism from someone who is not my demographic. Sarah Ruhl definitely wrote me this beautiful email where she had processed her own experience of what does it mean to always ask, did he like it? Did he like it? I think it's called, did he like it? And I can't wait for it. Actually, I think you're gonna get to see it in some form, hopefully soon.

[14:37] Bobby Lopez: Oh, great.

[14:38] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: But it was a balm for my soul. Yeah. I remember reading it in the desert in Arizona and just sort of feeling like I was on my own spiritual journey to reconcile the did he like it of where I am in this career and how do we make that change, but also how do we accept it and find the strength to move forward in a world where the change isn't happening that fast.

[15:09] Bobby Lopez: All right. So yeah, I mean now I'm interested in your, yeah, what's your failure?

[15:10] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's amazing. Well, I was gonna say there are two different kinds of failure, but there were two different kinds. Two more different kinds. There must be at least four, yeah, four different kinds of failure.

[15:26] Bobby Lopez: There's a kind that happens in a bar.

[15:31] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, there's the kind where you're just sitting down on a couch and you realize that's it for me.

[15:40] Bobby Lopez: No, I was gonna say there's the kind of failure that you experience in every process in every project where like you just cannot get away from it during the process. And the only way to get to success is through all those moments of failure of realizing, oh no, we don't have it yet. We need to go back.

[15:52] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[15:59] Bobby Lopez: Um, and then there's that huge disappointment of knowing that you failed yourself, you failed, you didn't, um, you didn't, you weren't hard enough on yourself, um, and, or maybe you were, you were too protective of the work and you didn't allow it to, um, to go through the crucible that it needed to go through. The Oedipus kind of failure where you were like, I was blind, screwed my mom. It's what you were saying are a very specific kind of failure you were saying earlier that sometimes you have really stuck to your true north to the detriment of flexibility.

[15:59] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah.

[15:59] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm thinking of this piece up here, which I, which was really almost autobiographical, not exactly, but just inspired by me and Kristen, you know, we were kind of writing about ourselves in a way and, um, and I was very, there was very high concept idea. We were mostly writing about Bobby, which might be part of the problem, which was part of the problem.

[17:11] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: This top man singing to me, um, and I think that I, you know, I felt somewhat, um, the need to protect this idea, this concept and the structure of it. I wanted to see a particular thing and I really fought really hard for it.

[17:31] Bobby Lopez: Um, you know, and I sometimes I think of that song from Title of Show, um, the change it don't change it, change it don't change it. And I was really on the don't change it side of that on that project.

[17:42] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And, um, that really did a lot of, you know, when you, when you really stick to your guns that hard and you believe in yourself that much, um, the come down is extra hard. Or at least it was for me in this case.

[17:56] Bobby Lopez: Sure.

[17:56] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Coincided right with my 40th birthday. And it just felt like I was at that birthday party.

[18:00] Bobby Lopez: Yeah.

[18:01] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And it's interesting because, well, that was a great birthday party. I mean, I thought he was doing great. He was like at the top of his game. I had all the casting, I know, like made a video. The thing that struck us, there were messages from...

[18:01] Bobby Lopez: How old are you now?

[18:18] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Uh, 45.

[18:18] Bobby Lopez: So I had just started dating Nathan and I brought him to that party and you, you put together this, Kristen, you put together this beautiful reel of all the casts of all the shows that you currently have running around the world, wow, wishing you a happy birthday. And Nathan was like, these people are serious. Like, this is like, they're really doing it. I mean, you're really at 40, like you're, from other perspectives, we might be like, you're crushing it, but you, there was some different feeling I think.

[18:36] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That was before Up Here, I think, but no, it was a little bit before Up Here, but the crash was coming because I must have, I must have been intuiting like why would I have put that together? I could tell that Bobby was maybe feeling a little uncertain after Book of Mormon opened of like, uh, after Book of Mormon and after Frozen, there was sometimes success can be far scarier than failure, you know, because failure you can control your rise from, but success, you, you've given your eyes away, and you kind of feel like, uh, how do I keep playing this role that I have just keep all these people happy?

[19:30] Bobby Lopez: Um, and so I thought I must have intuited, uh, for that 40th birthday that Bobby needed some cheering up, and I thought he would appreciate that like look at all these people who you've employed, like you are, you are paying for their cat food and yes, their health insurance, and I thought that that would mean something, but I actually, I think that it's just too right.

[19:52] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: So, how did you come out of that? Whatever that malaise was.

[19:55] Bobby Lopez: It was just really, it was really hard, but um, you know, it just took a lot of um, you know. First of all, we didn't have any chance to breathe. We were writing, you know, we had to come right out of Up Here into Frozen Broadway. All of a sudden they called us into a room and there was an easel with a, with a um, a canvas draped over it, and they pulled the canvas off, and there was a big um schedule, um, big spreadsheet printed out on a huge, you know, with like all these little boxes, and like here's when you meet this deliverable. Here's when you meet this. They had created an Excel spreadsheet of our weeks and hours of work because they were working at the time, they were also dealing with us working on Frozen 2, and someone at Disney had taken our lives and put it in an Excel spreadsheet.

[20:44] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And I started...

[20:44] Bobby Lopez: Here's how it is theoretically possible for you to accomplish this.

[20:48] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I started crying at this because it also felt like talking about surfing the big wave. It also meant that we weren't in control anymore, and that um, I was going to have to, I was gonna have to double down on the few things I wanted to have control over, and I was gonna have to decide what those were, and they were gonna be our children. Like I was, all other projects had to go to the wayside, and it was going to be about making sure that we still get our breaks with our children and that we didn't have to travel too much without our children.

[21:20] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And here's the other thing that we had done, thankfully, I think this without this person, we probably wouldn't have made it. We had hired um, an assistant named Tavia, who is now still with us, and she's now, she's like our executive creator.

[21:36] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, she's got a good title, and she's, and she does a lot.

[21:39] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Uh, and she really, um, she made it possible for us to make it through all this, um, you know, all the creativity, uh, and take some of the other work off of our plate.

[21:51] Bobby Lopez: This is what I'm talking about. See the sanity, see the balance, see the kindness.

[21:56] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, I see it. I see it all. And, uh, what I'm hearing you say is like you just didn't have time to...

[21:58] Bobby Lopez: We didn't have time, we did process it.

[22:06] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, we, yeah. I mean, I didn't have time for a crack up, you know.

[22:09] Bobby Lopez: There was plenty of cracking up.

[22:11] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: There was plenty of cracking up, and, and you know, sometimes you have to smash against the rocks. We did that, I think. And we, yeah, I'm, I could, 2016 is not a year I'd like to look back on too much.

[22:24] Bobby Lopez: Um, it was a really like white knuckle of a 2016 and like until May of 2017 was just like dark.

[22:36] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Like we got because of the, but because of the amount of work pressure, just not having a second to process anything, not having, not having any control to even say, guys, we have to take the day off. I need a minute. I need a minute, like I, there was no control of like, I mean, I had, thank God we had our kids just keeping us like stable in, they no matter what, our kids needed to be fed and needed to be put to bed and lullabies needed to be sung.

[23:10] Bobby Lopez: Yeah. Um, but during that time we hadn't learned the conscious dialogue. So we weren't communicating about how each of us was experiencing the pressure. I was also. But it sounds like you were just getting like deliverable done and getting to thing to thing to thing to thing to thing. Right, you know, but also remember Bobby at Yale working all by himself. It was also I had to leave to go work on In Transit. Uh and he was alone for the first time without his collaborator. And that's that never goes well. So if we learned one thing from this interview, it's that. So I, you know, on some level was dealing with developing Frozen for Broadway while also having this a cappella musical that sort of came out of the blue, it just showed up and it was like now you're doing it and you're doing it with a new director.

It was because of theater opened up. Because of real estate. Yeah. So it was both of us were just like gritting our teeth and getting through it. That is that is not the way to have a happy life. It may not be sustainable. Like you experienced it for a period of time, and what you may have learned is it's not sustainable, and you don't want a lifetime full of just that. I'd say it was like a pretty big breakdown, and then we had to um, you know, you it's a is and again, it's like giving up and realizing not all is lost.

[24:43] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, and actually there's so much wonderful stuff to be great. You look at the Lego city in the gymnasium. I mean you see what buildings are still standing. Yeah you rebuild from there. I was saying that that um saying something nice about me there was just one moment where I mean Kristen was yelling at me I just remember I think it was in this room. Oh it wasn't that nice thing took us back just um just sort of chewed me out for everything that I had that I was completely yeah ungrateful for you focusing on what you maybe I could have been more gentle no I don't think I don't I don't think it would have really come hit me as hard as it did.

[25:24] Bobby Lopez: Yeah and in that moment I felt the gratitude and I put it I put that whole thing aside and I focused just focus on Kristen and realize like the people that you are writing with and the relationships that you have are so much more important than the stuff we're writing than the stuff that comes out of the writing like the it is it is I'm so lucky just to forget writing forget creativity just to get to be with Kristen and the fact that we're really have so much fun together.

[26:00] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: We do I mean that was a moment of like out of the the 2017 wreckage um which had also you know my whole white knuckling it through In Transit and trying to and saying yes that I could be all things to all people. I don't know how you did this.

[26:18] Bobby Lopez: Well, it was not, it wasn't great. Like I wasn't, I shouldn't have done it, is what I mean. I did it for my friends. I was in a crazy position. But what it taught me is say no to some things. Like you you just gotta say no sometimes. And I've said no to some amazing experiences, just because I was like, I don't ever want to get back there. I don't want to do that again. But the other thing out of that has I've learned is when um things fall apart completely, yeah, is sometimes this amazing.

[26:51] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: We actually wrote a song out of it called When Everything Falls Apart, which like the blessings of the whole thing crashing and like getting a terrible New York Times review and being in a giant fight with your husband and like just having it all crash is this wonderful moment of like the light sort of starts to shine and the wind like all the house is fallen down and there's all this air and there's breakdown breakthrough.

[27:20] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, yes. Um we've learned we have a skylight now. Uh and we also learned to at like when songs fall or projects fall apart, just instead of be like, oh failure, failure, failure, to be like now we get a chance to write more songs together.

[27:39] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's right. Like we get to do what we do, and we would do on vacation. We write songs on vacation for fun. So if we can just think of every new project as the songs that we're writing on vacation.

[27:51] Bobby Lopez: That's right. The thing I love about this is it does hearken back to a conversation I had with you. You may not remember this.

[27:59] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I do remember, we were in the basement of the vineyard, so I'm guessing I don't know, it was post show something.

[28:05] Bobby Lopez: And Book of Mormon had just opened, wildly successful, nobody could get a ticket. And you know, we were chatting, and you know, it's just affable and fun. And I was like, How are you really? Like, how are you really right now? Not the pageant answer, but how are you really? And your face sort of dropped, and you said something I have never forgotten, which is this success feels like I'm always fucking up somebody's house seat order.

[28:17] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And I was like, that's what success feels like. That's what it felt like to in that moment. Now I'm sure it felt like a lot of other things too, but but like in that moment, it was so honest, and I loved it so much.

[28:49] Bobby Lopez: And one of the things that we're so fascinated with is what it looks like on the outside, what it feels like on the inside. Because I think a lot of times, you know, we know about the curation of social media. One of the things I love about your social media, Kristen, is you will be like, Today I wrote a song for this giant Pixar project, and my child threw up all over me. You're like really honest about the sneakers underneath the ball gown at the Academy of Awards.

[29:16] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Do you know what I mean? By the way, I'm only wearing sneakers underneath ball gowns for all ever again.

[29:22] Bobby Lopez: So smell it was the best nice, and it had to do with my foot comfort.

[29:27] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Oh gosh, and your enjoyment of the whole experience, giant pockets, too.

[29:32] Bobby Lopez: Um, so that I didn't have to worry about a teeny little purse shoving all the things in.

[29:35] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: No giant pockets with protein bars, there you go.

[29:39] Bobby Lopez: Not no audio.

[29:40] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Oh, like Jeroboams of champagne.

[29:44] Bobby Lopez: But I love how honest you are about what it looks like on the outside.

[29:49] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: You've experienced like wild, enormous success, but really what it feels like on the inside when 2017 feels like you're just like white knuckling it and wondering if you're gonna get through it.

[30:01] Bobby Lopez: I love how honest you're it's interesting because the um Oscars that are looming over us from Coco was one of the worst times for our family ever.

[30:11] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Uh like it we were in previews on Broadway for Frozen, and we hadn't seen our children.

[30:18] Bobby Lopez: We had to move to we had to move to Midtown during the week during the week, and then like wherever we could find a second to see our kids.

[30:29] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Were they just like bait deliver them to you like in the old days where it's like the children are paid, they're delivered to the party, but yeah, a little, yeah.

[30:37] Bobby Lopez: I mean, and you spend a moment very, very lucky that I have two sisters who were born when I was 14, and they're both amazing songwriters, by the way.

[30:45] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Kate's got a show filming off Broadway this spring called Between the Lines, they just announced the book thief that they're doing, and Lindsay is killing it in BMI right now.

[30:55] Bobby Lopez: Um, they what so this is incredible songwriters. Family full of lady songwriters, but at the time there were Efron sisters. They were in their 20s and they needed some cash so they could be artists, so we have this wonderful synergy where I could do what I do, I can be by crystal, and they take getting that is good.

[31:15] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: They're getting paid and supported as artists, but they're and they're there for my kids.

[31:19] Bobby Lopez: And they're so I'm very lucky, and that's a big part of the formula.

[31:22] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, um, however, that was a tough moment for our family, and we had to take our kids to the Oscars to have quality time with them.

[31:30] Bobby Lopez: Oh my god.

[31:31] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And I just remember compared to this time around, which we enjoyed every second of, yeah.

[31:37] Bobby Lopez: And um, that time was just I was so exhausted, and uh, any second that I wasn't doing the press or doing the thing, I was trying to connect with these kids who were like, mommy and daddy have left us.

[31:52] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: They're gone. Where have you been?

[31:54] Bobby Lopez: Wow.

[31:55] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um and and we were also doing a Paul Robeson project for Arcadia for Katie's.

[32:01] Bobby Lopez: Um uh I just remember also being like in the middle of a history project, and she left her computer in security.

[32:08] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I remember that.

[32:09] Bobby Lopez: And so I had we also were tracking down a computer, and I was doctoring a bra so that my bra wouldn't show, and I was like, I'm on hold with airport security.

[32:20] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: When you're trying to get to the Academy Awards, sewing or cutting my bra with hotel scissors and the sewing kit.

[32:26] Bobby Lopez: Oh my god.

[32:27] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Oh my god.

[32:28] Bobby Lopez: That's what it feels like on the inside.

[32:30] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's what it feels like.

[32:32] Bobby Lopez: Wow.

[32:33] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Amazing.

[32:34] Bobby Lopez: Is there a creative thing that you know you need to do before it's all said and done?

[32:41] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Something on your list that you just have to do.

[32:45] Bobby Lopez: I think I need to direct.

[32:47] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Ah, I think you're right.

[32:50] Bobby Lopez: I think I need to direct.

[32:52] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And I don't know when that's gonna happen, and it probably won't happen until both kids are up and grown because it's because it's hard.

[33:00] Bobby Lopez: It's big, but um theater, film, any of the above, any of the above, yeah.

[33:05] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Like any of us, yeah, ladies' choice, literally.

[33:08] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, god, you have all this experience now.

[33:11] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's exciting.

[33:11] Bobby Lopez: That's gonna set you up for such beautiful success as a director.

[33:14] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's super exciting.

[33:16] Bobby Lopez: I would like to do that.

[33:17] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I think that'd be fun.

[33:17] Bobby Lopez: Weak house sign, I guess.

[33:19] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: What about you, Bobby?

[33:20] Bobby Lopez: Well, I would always like to to do like a um, I've never um scored a project, like I scored a film. I would like to do that one day.

[33:28] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: But that also scares me because it's so much work.

[33:30] Bobby Lopez: It's so much writing and it's uh it's so specific and it's a kind of writing that I haven't really historically done new frontiers.

[33:42] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's right.

[33:43] Bobby Lopez: Oh, I like that.

[33:43] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I had one more thing.

[33:44] Bobby Lopez: Yes.

[33:45] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I think I need to do Nonsense or Nonsense Too at encore.

[33:52] Bobby Lopez: Do you want to?

[33:52] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: As Sister Robert.

[33:55] Bobby Lopez: No, I'm sorry.

[33:57] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I would I would love to do an encore as at some point.

[34:00] Bobby Lopez: I think that's a good thing.

[34:00] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, because you just rehearse for like a week or two and then you just get up there, tell some great jokes, kill it, and then pace out.

[34:07] Bobby Lopez: Yeah.

[34:07] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I think that'd be fine.

[34:08] Bobby Lopez: Okay.

[34:08] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I don't know if it needs to be Nonsense or Nonsense Too.

[34:11] Bobby Lopez: But um your choice.

[34:13] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And I don't know if Daniel Goggins, the creator of Nonsense or Nonsense Too, wants that to happen.

[34:19] Bobby Lopez: Got it.

[34:19] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um, but I feel like you just secreted that out in the world.

[34:22] Bobby Lopez: That's right.

[34:23] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: You just are manifesting it right now.

[34:25] Bobby Lopez: You both have been in the creativity business for a long time. Do you have any creative advice you'd like to share?

[34:33] Bobby Lopez: I think um I think what I was saying before about treating the people that you're working with as primarily important to your actual work.

[34:47] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um that your work won't suffer for that.

[34:49] Bobby Lopez: Amazing.

[34:51] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: That's a good idea.

[34:52] Bobby Lopez: That's a goodie.

[34:53] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um I think it's the thing that people really take for granted is that they have a whole world of creativity in their head.

[35:03] Bobby Lopez: There are thoughts that have never been thought, and references and rhythms and words.

[35:09] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: There's a whole library of experiences and it it's all right there.

[35:15] Bobby Lopez: And it doesn't need to be so hard.

[35:17] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: All you have to do is go to the page or your keyboard and let it pour out.

[35:24] Bobby Lopez: It doesn't, you don't need to worry about being unique.

[35:26] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: You don't have to worry about being a genius because it's already a genius because no one has ever gotten a taste of it.

[35:35] Bobby Lopez: It's like liquid gold of a unique perspective that if you're just true and you show up, it's there.

[35:44] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Amen.

[35:45] Bobby Lopez: That's good stuff.

[35:47] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Thanks.

[35:48] Bobby Lopez: Um what's it all for?

[35:52] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Do you know?

[35:53] Bobby Lopez: Do you have some guiding purpose in your mind?

[35:57] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Why do you go through, you know, the hectic lifestyle the 2017?

[36:05] Bobby Lopez: What's it all for?

[36:06] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I do think it is tied to that feeling that to that liquid gold that's spinning around in each orb of a human brain.

[36:16] Bobby Lopez: And that empathy and connection come from pouring that out and saying like your gold is your gold like my gold, or like, look at what your gold is telling my gold.

[36:29] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And that um that that is really when it happens honestly, it's the most powerful thing that can happen to I mean it it's it's love, really.

[36:40] Bobby Lopez: It's the same thing as love when you make a great connection with someone you can tell anything to.

[36:45] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah, but it's like love with the whole world when it works.

[36:48] Bobby Lopez: Shower me with your gold.

[36:51] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: What's it all for, Bobby?

[36:54] Bobby Lopez: How about you?

[36:56] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: For me, um, you know, for me, it's the world is changing so much.

[37:00] Bobby Lopez: I think that when we got started, there was a different um I had a different feeling about it than I do now.

[37:09] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And I feel like so much of the way the world has changed has led me to Kristen.

[37:16] Bobby Lopez: Um and you know, it's a different, it's yeah, it's I I'm I'm really loving this new world.

[37:24] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Yeah and um and I and I really follow her um through it and uh and I what she's what she's do what she's opened my eyes up to um feminism and um and just seeing seeing crossing the bridge into into her into the way she sees the world and the way others see the world.

[37:47] Bobby Lopez: And I I think it's it's my job now to kind of um challenge myself to see to see those things and to try and help people make those things.

[37:57] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Wow you two renew your vows, can we be your flower girls?

[38:02] Bobby Lopez: I was thinking it'd be fun to renew our vows at some point.

[38:05] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Then we will be your flower girls.

[38:07] Bobby Lopez: But what is interesting, I think, about all this is that there are there are times uh that I looked at Bobby to be the mission statement.

[38:17] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um like I looked at when I'm like I don't know what I have to say right now, and Bobby's fired up with something to say that that I can feel happy about being his sous chef um and and like let him cook for a while.

[38:33] Bobby Lopez: That's right.

[38:34] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I think I think right now in the world is is a moment of like I'm fired up about empowering female people of color and voices that haven't been heard and and I feel a lot of fire around that.

[38:49] Bobby Lopez: Yeah um although and by the way, Bobby is mixed race and and he never talks about it very much, but um you know I imagine there's going to be a moment where he's gonna want to talk about that at some point, and then I'll then I'll go, okay.

[39:05] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um you are the true north on that.

[39:08] Bobby Lopez: And yeah, it's amazing that you have each other too.

[39:12] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Like, I'm gonna step forward.

[39:13] Bobby Lopez: I've I'm got your back, I'm in full support, and I contribute to that thing that you're fired up about, and that throughout the course of your creative lives together and your lives together, that that can shift that you can each move into that pole position.

[39:28] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: It's parenting does affect that too, because there are times that you're like parent of the day, parent of the day, and then I am winning.

[39:38] Bobby Lopez: Your kids are like all about mom.

[39:41] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And got it, got it, got it, and it and that happens a lot in the early years, especially where it was it's just like nobody wants daddy, and then there is that shift where suddenly daddy continue where are they now?

[39:56] Bobby Lopez: Just had to wait it out patiently.

[39:58] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Oh yeah, where are they um literally?

[40:01] Bobby Lopez: Where are they?

[40:02] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Like I mean, where are they now?

[40:05] Bobby Lopez: Right now, there's there's a lot of um a lot of processing humor with Bobby humor and like talking about music and talking about stuff that's fine with him, and then a lot of like this thing happened emotionally feeling with me.

[40:25] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: So, like therapist.

[40:27] Bobby Lopez: Are you ever like, I'm funny too.

[40:30] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I try, but I'm also emotional.

[40:33] Bobby Lopez: I'm letting him letting him uh love that take the like Ghostbusters teaching them all again.

[40:39] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Sometimes I I you know I try to help with an emotional problem and I can see the pity in their eyes.

[40:45] Bobby Lopez: No, just no.

[40:50] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: He does get a little protective.

[40:51] Bobby Lopez: He is like, we'll just punch him in the face.

[40:54] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Wow, Bobby.

[40:57] Bobby Lopez: I just punch him in the face.

[40:59] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Finally, what or who is sparking you these days?

[41:02] Bobby Lopez: What's inspiring you?

[41:03] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Who's inspiring you?

[41:05] Bobby Lopez: Ooh, what's inspiring me?

[41:07] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I just found this group called The Staves.

[41:11] Bobby Lopez: That's um, I think it's two women singing in harmony, but it feels like three voices.

[41:17] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I don't I haven't even looked at them, but uh it's there's a song called Mexico that I just love that it has um when you were talking about them perseverating.

[41:27] Bobby Lopez: Um I'm trying to figure out those harmonies.

[41:30] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Mexico by the staves.

[41:31] Bobby Lopez: I can't wait to look at that.

[41:32] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I mean, that's like a really new and that's a good spark.

[41:36] Bobby Lopez: That's great spark.

[41:37] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I love that.

[41:37] Bobby Lopez: What you got?

[41:38] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: You know, I've been I've been listening to a lot of podcasts actually.

[41:41] Bobby Lopez: Um really you can't mention well um I um there's one called the soundtrack show, and I've been just getting really excited about because uh you know, I've been working in these, you know, we've been doing these movies, and it's not really movie make movie making or even movie music making, this writing songs for movie animated musicals, but um it we're sort of tangential to it.

[42:08] Bobby Lopez: And so uh I'm starting to realize like, oh, there's there's there's a history of this and a whole a whole lot of um a whole lot of tradition and um and conventions that I don't know that I would love to like learn and so you are working your way towards the scoring of a film one of these days one of these days and I it's exciting I'm working my way towards starting a female duo group that's going to tour internationally once the coronavirus is there you go say the name of that podcast again oh it's called the soundtrack show the soundtrack show and Dave Collins has become our friend nice W Collins it's a really cool um uh echo chamber they're they're in there is uh that's a bad word for it but it's a really cool dialogue they're in um where he Dave Collins is analyzing scores and it's actually affecting what Bobby's writing for the movies and then he interviews us about how he affected our writing of the movie that part always feels a little awkward how I mattered in this I love that thank you so much I don't want it to end you beautiful guests it's gotta end at some point I know unless we move in with you as a doctor don't be sad that it's over be happy it happened fuck you Bobby Love has so much thank you um our daughter was talking about uh you one of the she's seen you on one of the uh videos where you like lick someone's face could you say no no no.

[43:46] Bobby Lopez: No.

[43:46] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: No, this is what we don't do.

[43:48] Bobby Lopez: We don't lick face consent but she's loved she loved what you said.

[43:53] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I I forget what which show it was, but I'm sure I was brilliant.

[43:57] Bobby Lopez: You always spring awakenings, that's what it was.

[44:01] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Um she's 14 now.

[44:02] Bobby Lopez: Yeah, that's there.

[44:04] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I always say I have the sense of humor of a 15-year-old boy.

[44:07] Bobby Lopez: So that's how that feels right.

[44:09] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Your demo.

[44:11] Bobby Lopez: I guess that's it.

[44:12] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: We hope that this put another bunch of sparks in your file.

[44:14] Bobby Lopez: Listen to us.

[44:15] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: If there's a spark you'd like us to explore, or if you've taken a spark and you fanned it into a creative flame and you'd like to share that, won't you email us at thesparkfile at gmail.com or you can submit it through our website.

[44:26] Bobby Lopez: That's right.

[44:26] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: We've got a website, thesparkfile.com.

[44:30] Bobby Lopez: We'll even take your feedback, but you know the price of admission.

[44:33] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: First, you have to share a creative risk that you have taken recently.

[44:37] Bobby Lopez: We're not playing about that.

[44:38] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: And be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcast.

[44:41] Bobby Lopez: Subscribe.

[44:41] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Right, five star review it.

[44:42] Bobby Lopez: If you like this podcast, share it with people that you love.

[44:45] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: If you didn't like it, I don't know.

[44:47] Bobby Lopez: Chris Bix, Bobby, what do you say to your critics?

[44:50] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Die Vampire Dive.

[44:56] Bobby Lopez: If something tickles your fancy and gets your creative juices flowing, we are writing you a forever permission slip to make that thing that's been knocking at your door.

[45:06] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: It's your turn to take a spark and fan it into a flame.

[45:10] Bobby Lopez: You gotta talk it out.

[45:11] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: You gotta Johan Sebastian back it out.

[45:13] Bobby Lopez: And when you finally catch that hook, you gotta let it go and rock it out.

[45:19] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: You gotta take it and make it.

[45:23] Bobby Lopez: Bye.

[45:24] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Bye.

[45:30] Bobby Lopez: We're not bumping into something that inspires me.

[45:35] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I dump it in my sparkflash.

[45:38] Bobby Lopez: Spark could be something that I wanna make or how I wanna be.

[45:45] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: I pump it in my spark files.

[45:49] Bobby Lopez: I jump into my spark files.

[45:54] Kristen Anderson-Lopez: Let's open up the spark files.