This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome to The Theatre Podcast. Intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names. I'm Alan Seales.

[0:13] Jillian Hochman: I don't know who I am anymore.

[0:15] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah, you're kind of getting spaced out over there.

[0:18] Jillian Hochman: I'm fine.

[0:19] Alan Seales: Hi, Jillian.

[0:20] Jillian Hochman: Hi.

[0:21] Alan Seales: For those of you listening, in case you missed it on the last episode, we just launched a Patreon. So if you can head over to patreon.com slash the theatre podcast, please show your support in any way that you can for cheaper than your average cup of coffee, at least in New York City. You can help us out and help us keep going.

[0:38] Jillian Hochman: Yeah, you know, some cool stuff. There's a lot of great different tiers where you can support us. One of my favorites is every month we will send you some really cool, unique Broadway swag. I like going to the different shops and the flea markets and finding all these cool collectibles that you will never see again. So, yeah, if you want some cool stuff, you can join that tier on Patreon, patreon.com slash the theatre podcast.

[1:04] Alan Seales: So now on to business. This episode is with Warren Carlyle, director, choreographer extraordinaire and also personal friend of many people like Mel Brooks. We hear that story in this episode.

[1:15] Jillian Hochman: Never heard of him.

[1:16] Alan Seales: And Hugh Jackman. He was like, oh, yeah, I just left Hugh. Hugh got on a city bike and left. You know, what rode down the street? I was like, well, that's just normal life for him.

[1:26] Jillian Hochman: A life for Hugh and Warren.

[1:27] Alan Seales: He was really, really interesting. He's a little soft spoken, but like in like the way where he's a dancer and a choreographer. So like he's very soft spoken in his voice, but his movements are very loud and noticeable.

[1:41] Jillian Hochman: Yeah, this would have made a much better video podcast. But yeah, he just tells the story of his career and his childhood. And it's just like name after name, after name of going after opportunity to opportunity. Like he worked on Fosse. He worked on The Producers. He worked, of course, with Hugh Jackman, like Susan Stroman, the famous, wonderful Susan Stroman has brought him along because, you know, she recognized his talent and took him with her on the productions that she was working on at the time.

[2:12] Alan Seales: I think it's the importance of saying yes. And just when something comes up, you just go for it. He said he went to America for, I believe, six months and never left. So just say yes and go for it. You never know where you're going to land.

[2:25] Jillian Hochman: Mel Brooks helped him get his green card.

[2:27] Alan Seales: And his first apartment.

[2:28] Jillian Hochman: His first apartment, which we both talk about, talk about both of those in this episode. But what really one of the things that really impressed me, I'm a creature of habit. I like to like find a formula for things in my life and like I'll change it up every now and then, but I want to solidify it and then move on to the next thing. When I asked him about his approach to choreographing, he said it changes every time.

[2:45] Alan Seales: As a creature of habit, I would suspect that you would approach a show or approach a project sort of in the same way of like, oh, okay, this won me a Tony last time. So I'm going to kind of follow the same thing again this time. And obviously he just, you know, you'll hear the story in the episode, just didn't do it, doesn't do it, does something different every single time, depending on if he knows the actors first or he knows the directors first or if he knows the script first. And like right now he's already rehearsing or thinking of choreography for Music Man in 2020.

[3:18] Jillian Hochman: Yep. I think it just goes along with the real artistry of it of there is no one size fits all for anything. And so he just, whatever feels right is what he goes for. And that's why it's so brilliant.

[3:32] Alan Seales: Yeah. And he is a brilliant man with wonderful stories. Everybody, please enjoy this episode with Warren Carlyle.

[3:47] Alan Seales: This Tony Award winning choreographer, director and teacher has a combined 20 nominations between Tony Awards, Astaire Awards, Outer Critics Awards and Drama Desk Awards with credits ranging from The Producers, which was one of the most decorated shows of all time to the Tony Awards themselves to Music Man, which is now set to open in the fall of 2020 with Sutton Foster and Hugh Jackman. His most recent work, Kiss Me Kate, starring Kelly O'Hara, Will Chase and Corbin Bleu is now playing on Broadway and has just been extended through June 30th. Warren Carlyle, welcome to the podcast.

[4:19] Warren Carlyle: Hi, hi.

[4:20] Alan Seales: Was that, did I do you justice there?

[4:22] Warren Carlyle: That was amazing. I'm blushing.

[4:25] Alan Seales: That's good. And just to kick this off, all these awards, do you have like a shelf? That's what I always want to know. When you get these awards, you take them home, right? Do you take them home?

[4:34] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, yeah.

[4:35] Alan Seales: Do you have a shelf at home like next to your baseball trophies?

[4:37] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, I have a bookcase. I have a bookcase that has some precious pictures on it and a few trophies.

[4:45] Alan Seales: A few of the great awards that you have won? Is it behind glass or does it collect dust?

[4:50] Warren Carlyle: No, it gets dusty.

[4:52] Alan Seales: It gets dusty.

[4:54] Warren Carlyle: Okay. All right. So obviously, let's get back to where you grew up, which is what we do normally on this podcast. And so tell me about where you grew up and what kind of kid you were.

[5:04] Warren Carlyle: All right. So I grew up in a small town called Norwich. It's in East Anglia. It's four hours from London on the East Coast. I was a hyperactive kid, like truly hyperactive, actually, really. I ran track and swam and did horseback riding. And then around 10 years old, I saw the movie Top Hat and kind of pointed at the TV and said, I want that. I want to do that. My mom, God love her, just took me to the local church hall. And in the back room of that church hall, there was my first dance class. And a year later, I got a full scholarship to a ballet school. And off I went. My life, much like Billy Elliot, really, that's the best way of explaining my life.

[5:45] Alan Seales: So you learned how to be amazing at dance in a year and good enough to get a scholarship out of it.

[5:52] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, pretty much.

[5:53] Alan Seales: Wow. That's incredible. I don't know what I would do within a year that all of a sudden I'd be like, yeah, well, I'll just give you money to go do this. Hopefully, maybe podcasting? Who knows? So starting then at 11, you were dancing.

[6:08] Warren Carlyle: Yeah.

[6:09] Alan Seales: And did you at that time, I mean, did you go away from home or was it still behind?

[6:13] Warren Carlyle: I did when I was 14. Yeah, I did. And I loved it because I was suddenly with people who are like me. I think I grew up in that small town, not like anybody else, in an interesting way. And suddenly in the school, there are other guys who are dancing. There are other people who love jumping as much as I love jumping and spinning as much as I love spinning. And I was really, I found my home, actually.

[6:35] Alan Seales: Your tribe.

[6:36] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, I did. I really found them and they found me too. And I had a great, happy, happy time in that school.

[6:42] Alan Seales: That's great. So you were then, so I was 14. And was it still just a normal, was there a normal educational component to this in terms of like science and math and whatnot? Or was it all just like dance?

[6:55] Warren Carlyle: No, there was normal too. There was normal too. But with a group of kids, like we were, there was not much normal about it, you know, because we were there to dance. That's really what we were there to do. And I studied English and I studied music and I studied art and that was about it.

[7:09] Alan Seales: English, yeah, okay. So then at this point, do you know that you want to go kind of, I guess, into the director choreographer, like the creative role? Or are you still thinking that, you know, what's your personal trajectory at this point?

[7:25] Warren Carlyle: You know, at that point, I just wanted to dance. That was all I wanted to do. To me, it was like the Olympics. I just wanted to be in the Olympics. And really, that's what I did. Like, I just wanted to jump high and spin a lot. And I did. But looking back, I'd always choreographed, you know, whenever I hear music, I imagine people dancing. And that's one of my earliest memories, actually, even before I knew about dance. That's what I did as a young child. And now for my living, I sit in my apartment and I listen to music and I imagine people dancing. So there's a profound, for me, there's a profound connection to my pre-dance years. And then all the way through my dance years, I was always the person that choreographed. If someone needed something, it was me. I would, I'll do a number for you, or I'll do a routine for you, or I'll do a ballet for you, or whatever it is.

[8:12] Alan Seales: So are you a singer too, or was it all just dancing?

[8:14] Warren Carlyle: No, I was. I was a singer. I mean, I did eight or nine West End shows in the ensemble. And I sang. I think my first audition song was Happy Birthday.

[8:25] Alan Seales: Really?

[8:26] Warren Carlyle: Yeah. I auditioned for Gillian Lynn for Cats. I was in the year 10, I was in the 10th anniversary cast in the West End. And I said, Happy Birthday was my audition song.

[8:37] Alan Seales: I didn't know that that could be taken seriously. That's actually a really cool story.

[8:42] Warren Carlyle: Right.

[8:43] Alan Seales: Wow.

[8:44] Warren Carlyle: All right. Well, that gives me a little bit of hope, I guess. Yeah. So the West End productions, and then where was it? I mean, how long were you performing versus choreographing? And then I guess then when did the directing start to come in?

[8:58] Warren Carlyle: Right. And I think it's interesting. I think I've always choreographed. I don't think there's ever been a time when I haven't. And then when I was about 24, I choreographed a West End show called Pageant. And it was done here. It was done off-Broadway quite successfully, written by Bill Russell. Costumes by Tony Award winner, multiple Tony Award winner Greg Barnes. I choreographed that in the West End when I was 24. So I was already kind of on my choreographic journey. And then I had an opportunity to work with Susan Stroman and Trevor Nunn at the Royal National Theatre doing a production of Oklahoma in 1998. And I kind of went back to dancing just to get in the room for that. I was very, very keen to be in that particular rehearsal room.

In that rehearsal room also was, of course, Hugh Jackman, who was not yet 30 years old, playing Curly. Yeah. And that was a big kind of turning point in my life where I was suddenly in the room with really, really true greats, real greats. And it made me all the more determined actually to choreograph and to direct. I love telling stories, no matter whether it's through dance or if it's spoken. I'm a big fan of storytelling and Oklahoma was a really big kind of turning point for that.

[10:12] Alan Seales: And Susan Stroman, actually, do you want to continue your story with her? Because she's brought you with her to a little bit of success.

[10:20] Warren Carlyle: Oh, she's incredible. She's really, really the best. The best. Has been over the years a great mentor of mine. So I met her for the first time when we did Oklahoma at the Royal National Theatre. Following that, I came with her to New York to do the dance movie Center Stage, directed by Nick Heitner, which had both companies that had New York City Ballet and American Ballet Theatre kind of combined for the first time in history. That was really fun. And I spent a really great three months in New York City over the summer working on that. And that was Stro. And she just has been a great champion of mine over the years. Following that, I was hired to work on the show Fosse. So I learned it at the Broadhurst and then Gwen Verdon and myself and Anne Reinking, Deb McWaters, we went to London and then I set the West End company of Fosse.

While I was doing that, Stroman came and said, hey, I'm doing a show called The Producers. It's a new musical. It's Mel Brooks. It's Tom Meehan. It's Nathan Lane. It's Matthew Broderick. Would you consider coming for six months and being my associate, associate choreographer on the show?

[11:25] Warren Carlyle: And of course, I said yes. And I came for six months in, I think, early 2000. I came here and I'm still here.

[11:32] Alan Seales: So, you never left.

[11:33] Warren Carlyle: I never left.

[11:34] Alan Seales: You've been here 19 years.

[11:36] Warren Carlyle: Yeah. Wow. And obviously, The Producers, I mean, Susan Stroman herself has won five Tonys in her career. But gosh, The Producers, like, working with Mel Brooks and working with all of these legendary people who were part of this was, did you know that this was kind of like a catapulting you to a different level? Or was it just another gig at the time?

[11:54] Warren Carlyle: No, because I don't know. I didn't know anything. I didn't know anything. I didn't know what I was doing or where I was or who I was doing it with. I, of course, I knew Mel and I knew Stro and I know Tom Meehan. I mean, Tom wrote Annie. Like, he's extremely famous in my mind. And I knew I was with great people. And I knew it was a great show. It was a great project. And I just had a wonderful time. And I guess I learned a lot from it.

[12:24] Alan Seales: That's so cool, though. And then you became actually pretty good friends with Mel Brooks.

[12:27] Warren Carlyle: Yeah. Yeah. Mel was incredible. Mel and Anne Bancroft, actually, both. That my first six months in New York, they were my family. It was really, you know, Stro was very busy directing and choreographing that show. And Mel and Anne were the ones that they put me in the car and drove me around New York and bought me numerous dinners and lunches and breakfasts. And they were really my parents for my first six months in New York. And they wrote beautiful letters for my green card, you know, and I was going from a Visa to a green card. The first letter that was it was Mel Brooks. And the second one was Anne Bancroft. I mean, really incredible. They had an incredible impact on my young life.

[13:10] Alan Seales: I wonder if you're the person reading the green card letter and you're like, Mel Brooks, is this real? You know, I just imagine like, hey, check this out. Everyone's like coming over and telling their friends in the government office.

[13:20] Warren Carlyle: You're actually spot on. When I had my interview at the American Embassy in London, the only question I was asked for my green card was, what's Mel Brooks like?

[13:30] Alan Seales: No kidding.

[13:31] Warren Carlyle: What's Mel Brooks like? I had a chest x-ray, and they took some fingerprints, and then the question was, what's Mel like?

[13:40] Alan Seales: That's incredible. Wow. Well, I guess, you know, it goes to show if you're friends with Mel Brooks, you can get a green card. You heard it here first. And didn't he help you find your apartment you're living in now? That's an amazing story.

[13:48] Warren Carlyle: He did. Mel has a really great son called Max. And Max and I are a very similar age. And I was buying my apartment in New York. And Mel insisted on doing the walkthrough before the closing. So Mel came to the walkthrough before I closed and, you know, looked in every cupboard and made sure I was getting my value for money. He has been incredible, just incredible with me.

[14:14] Alan Seales: Well, he gave you, the version I heard was that he gave you the okay, did the Mel stamp of approval, right, to live there. And then now we can kind of, we can transition into your creative process specifically, but don't you choreograph in your living room? Like that was part of the look you were going for?

[14:27] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, and it's part of, I don't think I knew at the time, but I live in a pre-war apartment that was designed by the same architect that designed the Broadhurst Theatre.

[14:43] Alan Seales: Really?

[14:43] Warren Carlyle: One of the, I think he only designed one apartment building in his life and it happens to be the one I live in. The rooms are extremely generous. They're very square. It was a hotel at one time. They have extremely high ceilings, but they're big rooms. And one of the things I love still, almost 20 years later, I love, I stand in the middle of my living room and I face this kind of blank wall and I play the music and I move my fingers and I move my feet and that's how I visualize the work I'm going to do.

[15:08] Alan Seales: Is it a mirror or is it just straight up?

[15:13] Warren Carlyle: No mirror, no mirror, no mirror.

[15:14] Alan Seales: You choreograph without a mirror, really?

[15:16] Warren Carlyle: No, I can't look at myself. That's terrible. That's horrifying.

[15:21] Alan Seales: I just imagine you at like, you know, kind of Risky Business style two in the morning in your tiny whiteys, you're like, all right, and just moving around and look at yourself in the mirror. But I guess it's good. There's no mirror there. Because I'm imagining, you know, I'm imagining Kelly O'Hara. I'm imagining Corbin Bleu and I'm imagining James T. Lane, like I'm imagining the perfect people, not the 47-year-old version of it.

[15:43] Warren Carlyle: Well, for those who don't know, let's back up a little bit. And can you explain the difference for the listeners between like a choreographer, an assistant choreographer, associate choreographer, and like all the different iterations?

[15:57] Warren Carlyle: Yeah. What's interesting for me is I've been all of those, I've been all of those things. I've worn all of those hats. So I would, you know, in my journey, swing, right, a swing would be first in that lineup. And then that is a person who learns multiple parts and who is ready to go on at the drop of a hat. It's a very particular skill. And there were some great, great, great swings. There were some famous swings on Broadway, and I happened to be an okay swing. I did it once. I didn't write anything down because I didn't know I should. So I just learned 19 parts in my head.

[16:28] Alan Seales: 19? What show was that?

[16:29] Warren Carlyle: Pickwick.

[16:30] Alan Seales: Wow.

[16:31] Warren Carlyle: Choreographed by Gillian Lynn, actually. Yeah, so I was a swing, and then I was a dance captain, because generally they just need someone to learn everything and be able to run a room or be a voice of reason at times. And then that kind of dance captain voice of reason turned into an assistant choreographer voice of reason, because then I had, you know, I had ideas about steps or I had ideas about story, and I was easy to be with and pleasant to be with in a room, but could say, hey, everyone, we need to do the work, 5, 6, 7, 8, let's fix it. You know, so I had that experience as a kind of assistant choreographer. And then associate choreography, you know, traditionally, I think legally in the billing, associate offers artistic contributions.

They're not noticed in any way, and it's not paid for in any way or rewarded in any way. But I think the true legal definition, I think, in our contracts now is that they offer contributions artistically. So I was an associate choreographer on numerous productions. On Broadway, it was The Producers, and it was Oklahoma at the Gershwin, the pre-Wicked days of the Gershwin Theatre. And, you know, then following that, I became a choreographer in my own right.

[17:46] Warren Carlyle: And then choreographer, you know, is someone who's responsible for all of the dance in the show, most often all of the musical staging, too. You know, there are many directors that say, when the music plays, it's you, kid. Like, get in there and do it. And I love that. So choreographer is a big, it's a big job, and it's a big title. It's something that I take very seriously, but something that I love doing. I love doing it.

[18:13] Alan Seales: Do you prefer to wear the director's hat along with the choreographer hat, or do you prefer to have it kind of separated and trust a director to do their side of it?

[18:18] Warren Carlyle: I prefer both, actually. It's an interesting question. I love choreographing, especially when I'm with a really great director, especially when I can go to directing school for a minute. You know, Scott Ellis and I have a really wonderful working relationship. He's incredible. He has a great humor, and he's really, really, really super with the actors, and he's super with fashioning a show. Jerry Zaks and I have a great relationship. Gary Hines, a wonderful Irish director, Irish lady. I loved being with her. But then I also do love, I do love being under my own steam a little bit. I like sometimes having a singular vision. Tommy Tune is a really good example of that, just a visionary director, choreographer, designer almost.

And Chaplin, for me, would be a good example of that. That was a very pure director-choreographer vision. After Midnight in 2014 was the same thing. The thing that I dreamt was the thing that was on the stage, and that was a very uninterrupted dream. And sometimes when you collaborate, those dreams get interrupted in some way. And then just being a choreographer becomes sometimes about dealing with those interruptions instead of following that one singular visionary path. But I do enjoy both. I like collaborating. I'm always happy to be with smart people.

[19:39] Alan Seales: That's interesting. I'm trying to think about what I would do. I'm not a choreographer. I'm a mover, not even a dancer. I wouldn't even call myself a dancer. But no, I like the directorial side, and I just don't know enough about choreography. Goodness. I mean, I guess speaking more to your creative style or your creative process, do you work differently when you know a cast first, or when you know a script first, or when you have the music first? What's the easiest thing for you to start with?

[20:18] Warren Carlyle: I think it's different every time. I mean, each show is different. Each show is unique, has a unique set of opportunities. I generally start with the music. I like music. I read music. I studied music a little bit in school. That's normally my way in. There will be a score that I can look at. I play through it numerous times. I'll have whoever the dance arranger is. In the case of Kiss Me, Kate, it was David Chase, wonderful David Chase. And we spend a lot of time going through the score, really note by note by note by note. That's normally my way in. And Kiss Me, Kate was a really fun one because it's about gypsies. It's about us. It's about people that love the theater, people that work in the theater, onstage, backstage, that great kind of show within a show.

That was an easy thing to access, actually. But yeah, each time my process is very different. And actually, even within a show, Kiss Me, Kate has a lot of range. Tom, Dick, and Harry is completely character-driven. That dance is character-driven. Three suitors who are all completely different. One is hot and jazzy and tries too hard. And one is super cool, and she has to come to him. And the third one is all heart. Corbin's solo is all heart. But those dances were created out of character. Too Darn Hot was a sequence that was born out of dancers and actors at rest. How wonderful to watch them at intermission in the alleyway outside the stage door, and what are they going to do? And that delicious battle of the sexes.

If the men do a section, then guess what? The women are going to do it much better. There's a great tension and play in that that I was keen to bring out somehow, to lift somehow. Kantiama was about celebrating beautiful, strong women, like placing these women in those barrels and watching them stomp on those grapes. So I thought that was really just an opportunity for something kind of sexy and unexpected, in a way, and some great partnering. And Bianca was just this charming kind of love letter, this guy with his heart on his sleeve, just doing anything he could to demonstrate his love. So even within one show, like Kiss Me, Kate, there's a great deal of range and different skills, storytelling skills or pure dance skills with Too Darn Hot. Kiss Me, Kate was a particularly fun challenge.

[22:49] Warren Carlyle: Man, coming up next year as well. Do you start from, I guess, researching? Do you research at all what was done in the past or look at what was done and try actively to, A, I guess, be inspired by it versus not do any of it? Do you want to be completely original or are you trying to adapt?

[23:11] Alan Seales: I would like to be completely original. But it's difficult sometimes. And I think especially with, you know, the dawn of YouTube, everybody's seen a version of what you're going to do, especially with the revival. You know, Follies, I did Follies a few years ago at the Marriott Marquis and that was very daunting because I think Michael Bennett had kind of big shoes to fill. And a lot of that production is available on YouTube. You can see the original production or you can see parts of it. And I just didn't want to be compared and I was nervous about being good enough. And with Kiss Me, Kate, I saw actually Kathleen's production. I saw it at the Hirschfeld and loved it, loved it, loved it. I loved how much dance there was in it.

And I, of course, I'm a huge fan of Cole Porter. But I don't remember much more than just loving it. I don't remember details of it. So when I went to work on this one, it was just like doing a brand new show for me. There wasn't really a reference to the past. With Hello, Dolly, there was much more of a reference to the past. The front of the theater was decorated in the same bright red that David Merrick used on the original production. All of those quotes from the original production were there. So the outside of the theater promised the audience the original production, basically.

[24:26] Warren Carlyle: Do you know that, though? Do you know that this is what the set's going to look like and then adjust your choreography based on that?

[24:34] Alan Seales: Yeah. Yeah?

[24:36] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, constantly. Constantly, because you adjust it based on the artwork, like a work on the artwork, because the artwork is the first image of the show. And if you promise them a garden, you better deliver a garden at the end of Secret Garden. If there is a beautiful, flowery garden on that poster, I just promised 18 million people a beautiful garden. So when they see the end of that show, that last scene better look like a beautiful garden. Wow. So I'm conscious about those things. I'm conscious about those promises. And Hello, Dolly was something that very much promised in its advertising and in its approach. It promised a really faithful revival. And also, I'm a big fan of Gower Champion.

And he did some really wonderful things. That procession in Sunday clothes is, how could I ever do better than that? Like having them walk backwards or sideways was not going to be any better than that beautiful procession. So Hello, Dolly, you know, was really interesting because it was a very faithful production. And I wanted to be faithful to Gower Champion. It was very important. And it's also that kind of thing where if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah. I really felt like that. And the number Hello, Dolly is really wonderful. And I, of course, adjusted some things within it. But I actually was quite faithful to what was originally done, I think, as I should be. And I'm a fan. I'm English in my roots, right, in my heritage.

So I believe in tradition. I come from a culture of traditionalists. And I think it's OK in my young adult life to be secure enough to tip my hat to the past and know that I'll have plenty of chances in my life to be truly original.

[26:01] Alan Seales: Yeah. So now with Music Man, are you thinking about this already? When do you start the choreography?

[26:06] Warren Carlyle: Oh, like two years ago. Oh, like fully two years ago. Yeah. Music Man two years ago. As soon as Hugh mentioned he wanted to do it.

[26:12] Alan Seales: Yeah. I was dreaming about it.

[26:15] Warren Carlyle: Wow. Wow. So even during Kiss Me Kate, you were already having Music Man dreams?

[26:21] Alan Seales: Yeah. Moments off. Moments off. I won't tell Kiss Me Kate.

[26:25] Warren Carlyle: Yeah. Moments off. I mean, they were few and far between. But yeah, sure. As soon as Hugh was dreaming about that, yeah, I was on board with that. So for Kiss Me Kate, I guess for anything you're doing, it sounds like for Music Man, Hugh was the impetus for reviving this again. But for something like Kiss Me Kate, I don't know, in the creative process, where that came from. I mean, maybe you can speak to that a little bit. But do you know, do you get attached before you know who the cast is and then adjust based on casting decisions? Or is it just like, this is what I'm doing, cast somebody to do it?

[27:04] Warren Carlyle: It's different every time. It's different every time. Each version is different. I mean, some things when I'm on really early, when I'm attached early, I have casting approval over everything, or everyone or every department. And other things like Kiss Me Kate, you know, Kelly was really the reason. Kelly O'Hara was the reason to do that show. And Scott Ellis, the director, always said, if it's not Kelly, then it's not Kiss Me Kate. Then we just won't. We'll do something else. And he was right, actually. He was really right about it. She's just, she's wonderful. And she's been a wonderful collaborator. She's been a dear friend of mine for many years. And I'm very, very happy and honored to be in her company. And boy, was that a good reason to do Kiss Me Kate.

[27:46] Alan Seales: So are you still friends with Hugh as well? Do you call yourself friends?

[27:51] Warren Carlyle: Yeah. No, I just left him. I left him on a city bike.

[27:54] Alan Seales: You're kidding.

[27:58] Warren Carlyle: No, we just rehearsed today. We rehearsed from 10 until 3 today.

[28:00] Alan Seales: You've already started rehearsals.

[28:02] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, not for Music Man. I'm directing his arena tour, his world tour. So we are well underway with that. I don't know what if I do. If I see Hugh just riding a city bike down the block, I guess that's what he does. Nice guy. So you've choreographed as well for the Tony Awards themselves, yeah? How did that come about?

[28:22] Warren Carlyle: You know, I don't know. I think I just got lucky. I think someone else wasn't available and I was probably the third choice, which I have to say I love. I am much better when I'm the second or third choice, because then I can only succeed. I think being the first choice is a terrifying position for me. I'm much better as the underdog. So yeah, so I'm sure there was someone who was unavailable and I was lucky enough to be the third call. Yeah, and I got to choreograph the Tony Awards. I got to stage and choreograph the Tony Awards. And coincidentally, it was the year that I was nominated for Best Director and Best Choreographer. That same year, I also choreographed the Telecast, which meant actually I didn't leave Radio City until 5:30 that afternoon.

I took a cab home, I changed my clothes, I got back in the cab and went back to the hall and didn't have time to think about anything. And it was a really wonderful, it was a crazy wonderful experience. Hugh was hosting that year. And of course, I've gotten to know the whole CBS crew and the whole orchestra and everyone backstage at Radio City. And it was an amazing moment to kind of walk off stage holding an incredible trophy. And then there's my buddy of 20 years. There's Hugh like, well done, mate. It was really a special, very special thing that I will hold near and dear.

[29:47] Alan Seales: That's great. And it was 2015 and 16 that you did. You did both years or just one?

[29:52] Warren Carlyle: No, I did both. I did two years back to back. And the second year was Kristen Chenoweth and Alan Cumming. Really, really fun, really fun. And we did all the bumpers and there was a ton of stuff to do. And I really, really loved doing it. Glenn Weiss, who directs, and Ricky Kirshner, who produces, are an incredible team. They're an incredible team. They love Broadway so very much. And they're really good with us Broadway folk. They really take care of us. And I think I've had something, I've had a number from one of my shows on the Telecast for I think the last, at least the last decade, there's been something from me every season. And I just always feel cared for by them. And it's such a great celebration of this business.

I really loved choreographing it because I got to see every friend I'd ever met in America. They all walk through the doors, they all rehearse their numbers, they all do their camera blocking. And the day itself is such a wonderful celebration. You do an early, early dress rehearsal, starts at nine, and then everyone goes off and they do their shows. And then we will reconvene in the evening.

[31:00] Alan Seales: Yeah, those Tony Sundays are such a hefty day for everybody.

[31:06] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, it's really great. People don't realize what goes on behind the scenes like that. You've been preparing for weeks, the actors come in, like the sets themselves have to be sometimes physically moved.

[31:14] Alan Seales: Yeah, that's right.

[31:16] Warren Carlyle: From the theaters that end at, what, 5 or 5:30, they finish their two o'clock matinee, and then they're on at eight o'clock that night. That's intense.

[31:25] Alan Seales: Yeah, it's pretty crazy. It's just a fun, that Tony Sunday is a really, really great, great, great day. It's really, really fun.

[31:30] Warren Carlyle: It sounds like it. And you've also done some other TV though, so you think you can dance?

[31:36] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, I love it. That's still one of my favorite shows. I love doing it. Season 16, I think, is coming up. I've done five seasons of the show, and I really, I just love it. I love it. I love those kids. I love those dancers. They're young, and they're full of life and full of hope, and it's actually really good for me. It's a really good reminder of why I got into this crazy business. I love being around them. The executive producer, Nigel Lithgow, is wonderful. Jeff Thacker, who runs the entire show, has become a dear friend. Nikki Parsons, who directs it, is a lover of dance, is a trained dancer. And you get to be with your choreographer buddies. When do you get that? A whole pack of choreographers. It's actually really fun to be with other creatures who are the same as you are.

[32:28] Alan Seales: If this was a comedy in my mind, then all of your pack of choreographers, and when you said pack, I was picturing West Side Story. You're going out to dinner, and you have to eat all your food in unison, and you're jumping down the street.

[32:44] Warren Carlyle: It's like a zoo. It's like a zoo, so you think you can dance. It's like a beautiful menagerie of creatures. It's really fun. I love, love, love doing the show, and I love what it does, too. It's not a show about conflict. There's no behind-the-scenes drama. It's all just about beautiful dancing, great dancing, great music, great entertainment. It has a very wholesome feel to it. And for me, anything that brings dance to a wider audience, I celebrate it.

[33:14] Alan Seales: Do you get to snipe any of the talent? Do you get to bring the talent into your shows at all?

[33:19] Warren Carlyle: Yeah. Think about Philip Atmore, so you think you can dance Hello, Dolly. Think about Melanie Moore, so you think you can dance Season 8 winner, Hello, Dolly. Think about Jess Leproto, so you think you can dance Hello, Dolly. Think about Ricky Ubeda. Ricky and I have done numerous projects over the years together. I mean, that's four without even thinking about it. Edson, I just used Edson for something. Jackie from his season, as well. I mean, really, they're just super. They are super, super, super dancers.

[33:49] Alan Seales: Yeah. I'll change the subject a little bit, though. You mentioned when we were talking about the Tonys that you prefer to be the third choice. Why is that? Why don't you want to be the first?

[34:00] Warren Carlyle: Isn't the first scary? I mean, can't you? I don't know if I could ever live up to being the first. I think I just like being second. That may just be a personal thing, but I like having

[34:45] Alan Seales: I feel like there's a little bit of imposter syndrome still. They're like, I don't know why I'm here, but I guess I'll keep doing it. It sounds like a little bit of that. He's like, well, I'm not good enough to be first, but I'm okay with third. But you are good. You've got award after award after award, and you keep getting asked to do stuff. I don't know if you were third choice. What if you were first?

[35:09] Warren Carlyle: That would be amazing. That would be amazing, too. That would be amazing. And maybe one day I'll feel like I've earned the first choice.

[35:20] Alan Seales: What would that take?

[35:21] Warren Carlyle: I don't know. Maybe some more miles on the clock. Maybe some more miles. I still feel like I've got some more work to do. I've got more good work coming. I don't feel like I've arrived anywhere yet. That Tony in 2014 felt like the beginning of a career, not like an arrival. That really felt like a starter's pistol going off in my head like, all right, so now you've got this, so let's go. Now let's do the work. Now let's really do something that's going to make a mark or be part of history in a meaningful way.

[35:57] Alan Seales: I don't know. Maybe my advice, I guess, if you want to take advice from me is don't forget where you came from because where you are now and where you came from probably is miles apart and you're sitting in a really good place. So don't cut yourself short.

[36:15] Warren Carlyle: I wonder if cutting myself short helps me get out of bed every day.

[36:22] Alan Seales: I think it does with everybody.

[36:24] Warren Carlyle: I think it's such a healthy, I'm such a competitive fellow by nature, that it's such a good thing. It's such a good motivator for me of like, no, I still got stuff to prove. I still got a ways to go. So you better get up early and you better get in that studio.

[36:38] Alan Seales: Oh, yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. I feel the same way you do about pretty much everything. But I'm just trying to give you a little bit of perspective, I guess, to remember that you are pretty damn good because you got a whole shelf of awards that most people will never even get anywhere close to. So remember that.

[36:58] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, I do. I will.

[37:01] Alan Seales: So many people are like, yeah, I don't really know why, but I'm here and I'll just continue to do what I'm doing. And some of the leads on Broadway are like struggling to decide whether or not they want to continue on Broadway because they still don't feel good enough. And like the listeners of this podcast, a lot of them don't live in New York and may never make it to New York. And it kind of puts things in perspective, right? To hear from people who are here and doing it that they don't still feel good enough.

[37:32] Warren Carlyle: Yeah, or you still question. You continue to question. You continue to question why or how or am I in the right place? Am I doing the right thing? Is this enough? Yeah, it's an interesting psychology. But I have to say, I am not without moments of celebration. I am not without moments of looking at that Tony Award every morning and saying, thank you. I really am. I really appreciate it. And it certainly for me was life changing. It really was. That kind of affirmation of the whole business and all of those Tony voters and everyone that I know and everyone that I love just standing up and saying, we believe in this guy. He's good enough for this now. Let's reward him. That was not lost on me.

[38:18] Alan Seales: Yeah. Well, now somebody said the other day that forever they will be known as Tony Award nominee so and so. And now you're one of the few people who is Tony Award winner so and so. And that's no small thing. It's very, very hard. Out of how many millions of people did you have to... Step over is not the right word because it wasn't malicious, but did you surpass, right? So, it is a competition.

[38:47] Warren Carlyle: It's really incredible. It's incredible. Yeah.

[38:50] Alan Seales: So, anyway, I'm just trying to help you out a little bit. So, on this podcast, we have three standard questions that I ask to close things out. Everybody gets asked these. First, simply, what motivates you?

[39:02] Warren Carlyle: Love.

[39:05] Alan Seales: For?

[39:06] Warren Carlyle: Everything. Love for America, love for the Upper West Side, love for the MTA, love for Uber, love for Broadway, love for dancers, love for actors, love for music. I love what I do. I love what I do. Every single second of it. The good, the bad, the ugly, the rich, the poor, the fat, the thin. Every version of myself, every version of this work, every version of this business. I love it. I love it. I could not imagine my life without it.

[39:33] Alan Seales: I'm still stuck on love the MTA. I just can't, but okay.

[39:37] Warren Carlyle: Well, the last time I went on it was probably 1998.

[39:41] Alan Seales: Well, there you go. That's why. Yeah, we were next to... Never mind. I won't go down that route.

[39:50] Warren Carlyle: Question number two, what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[39:54] Alan Seales: I think I would say, I just would say, learn to say yes. That's the most important lesson. Actually, the most important advice I could give anybody is just learn to say yes. If someone says, can you jump on that table? You say yes. Can you speak French? Yes. Can you tap dance? Yes. Can you sing? Yes. Can you choreograph a TV show? Yes. You want to choreograph the Tonys? Yes. Want to do a movie? Yes. And then you go home and you figure out how the hell you're going to do it.

[40:25] Warren Carlyle: But I think there's something about being a creative person that if you continue to say yes, you can continue to move forward. And I think as soon as you say no, then that somehow for me, certainly personally, that creativity stops. You cut off the blood supply to that creativity. So I've learned over the years, even with every fiber of my being, even if I disagree, I will say yes. I will say yes, because I know then something can come. And it might not be the thing that I'm being asked to do, but I'm able to continue creating. So I've learned over the years to say yes, no matter what.

[40:58] Alan Seales: That's the whole fake it till you make it, which we hear a lot of times too.

[41:02] Warren Carlyle: Yeah.

[41:03] Alan Seales: Yeah. That's really good advice, I think. There's a lot of people who just, they are their own worst enemy. And they're just afraid to try.

[41:11] Warren Carlyle: Right. Or keep trying, keep trying. And for actors, don't cut yourself. Don't cut yourself from the audition. The creative team get to decide when you don't get the job. You don't get to decide that. I think, yeah, keep going. Keep going, keep trying. They say it takes seven times before you know someone. Seven meetings, or seven auditions, or seven tries. And in my job, I would agree with that. It takes me seven times of seeing someone before I feel familiar with them, before I feel comfortable with them, and before I'm able to invite them into my world a little bit. That stuff takes time, and it is not personal. It's not personal. It just isn't. It just takes time.

[41:55] Alan Seales: Right. Yeah, this is a business where the creative side has to discriminate against your physical appearance and many other factors that most jobs, you're not allowed to. Yeah, so it's a very tough business.

[42:09] Warren Carlyle: And then the last question, this is the hardest one. If you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what show would you see?

[42:16] Warren Carlyle: West Side Story.

[42:18] Alan Seales: Oh, that was easy.

[42:19] Warren Carlyle: Easy. Easy, because the first words of the play are dance. The first words of that play is that chassé to stage right, right? That guy's center stage. The curtain goes up and he chassés. I think it's the most beautiful thing. That original choreography, that Jerome Robbins choreography and direction, and you look at it, and we still haven't come close to it. There is not one of us in this generation of choreographers that have come close. We haven't. It's just that work in my mind is the best there's ever been. It is unbelievably great.

[42:52] Alan Seales: Normally, I would close the podcast, but I want to keep talking about that. Why do you think we haven't come close to that? Every generation is supposed to get better and learn from previous. And now, we've got the internet and all the archival footage from decades and decades and decades ago. We're watching that. We're learning from it. Why do you feel that we haven't gotten even close to that again?

[43:15] Warren Carlyle: No. I think it was the perfect storm. I think it was the marriage of that music, the marriage of the dance, the story, that classic Romeo and Juliet story told in a contemporary way. Those kids and those dances are really, really hard. I saw a sequence from it at American Dance Machine a few years ago, and I was struck by how hard the dancers were having to work to execute this choreography. And then you watch other choreography alongside of it, and you realize that we haven't really come close to touching it. We just haven't. I hold it in such high esteem. It really is. If West Side was, I think, 1952, maybe, certainly the 50s. Yeah, it's challenging in this day and age.

[44:02] Alan Seales: So interesting to me. I actually don't know who's choreographing the Spielberg movie.

[44:09] Warren Carlyle: I do. It's Justin Peck, New York City Ballet. He won a Tony for Carousel, I think, last season.

[44:16] Alan Seales: Who's perfect. He's the perfect, perfect choice, because in his repertoire, he will have Robbins, because Robbins was a founder of City Ballet. So he'll have knowledge of that original vocabulary somehow. And he has a wonderful, wonderful kind of visionary approach of his own, too. He's a really special, special choreographer. And I think, in my opinion, certainly the right person for that job. I can't wait to see what he does with it.

[44:43] Warren Carlyle: Well, I hope. Yeah, I hope he comes close.

[44:45] Alan Seales: Yeah. Yeah. And he will. And he will.

[44:48] Warren Carlyle: Cool. All right. Well, we can find you online on Instagram at Warren Carlyle. And I don't think you use your Twitter anymore, do you?

[44:55] Warren Carlyle: No, it's still there, but somewhat dusty.

[44:58] Alan Seales: At Carlyle Warren. And then, are you anywhere else you want to plug?

[45:03] Warren Carlyle: No, that's it. All right. Instagram, that's it. We're at Warren Carlyle. You can get more of me at theater underscore podcast on Instagram and Twitter, facebook.com slash official theater podcast. Of course, listen, please subscribe, rate and review. The ratings do help. You can email at feedback at the theater podcast dot com. This is produced by Jillian Hockman. And as always, thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for our intro and outro music. Warren, this has been so much fun. Thank you.

[45:31] Warren Carlyle: Thank you.