This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Eden Espinosa: Hi, I'm Eden Espinosa, and you're listening to The Theatre Podcast with Alan Seales.

[0:11] Alan Seales: Hey, everyone. Welcome to an all-new episode of The Theatre Podcast. I'm Alan Seales, and this episode with Eden Espinosa is the final episode dropping before the amazing 2024 Tony Awards happening this Sunday. I can't believe the end of our amazingly nutty awards season is finally coming to an end. Eden, of course, having received a nomination for her performance in Lempicka, dives into the bittersweet feelings of originating this role on Broadway, getting a Tony nomination for it, and then having the show close all too soon. I don't know about you, but I hear about Eden all the time. She's in productions and performances locally here in New York City and regionally, and she's just a constantly working actress and a perfect example of being a successfully working Broadway actor, I put in quotes, without having to spend all your time on the actual Broadway stage.

She picks her projects very carefully to make sure her cup is always full, as she will tell us here in the episode, and seems to be a much better person because of it. So find me on the socials, check out my Patreon, where the full-length video of this interview will be posted, and everyone now please enjoy this episode with Eden Espinosa.

[1:21] Alan Seales: Our guest today made her Broadway debut in 2003 in the original cast of Wicked as the Elphaba standby and Nessarose understudy and also garnered critical acclaim, playing Elphaba full-time in the sit-down productions in Los Angeles and San Francisco. She originated the lead role in the show Brooklyn in 2004, before going on to the closing company of Rent as Maureen in 2008. She graced the screen with roles in shows like Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure, Alice's Wonderland Bakery, for which she earned an Emmy nomination, by the way, for her portrayal of Queen of Hearts in 2022. She has two complete solo albums to her name, Look Around and Revelation, and most recently, her performance in the world premiere of Lempicka garnered her a Tony Award nomination for Best Actress in a Musical. Eden Espinosa, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[2:20] Eden Espinosa: Oh, wow. That was a lot of words. Who's that? Who's that person in that career?

[2:25] Alan Seales: Well, you made it. You made a career, dude. And I told you this right as we connected before we started recording. I love, as I was researching, I was like, I hear about you all the time. I hear about Eden's doing this and over there, and she's getting critical acclaim for waking up and rolling over out of bed this morning.

[2:39] Eden Espinosa: Ah, I wish.

[2:40] Alan Seales: And you haven't been on Broadway before Lempicka in 20 years.

[2:45] Eden Espinosa: Yes. Literally. Well, 20 years is the last time I originated something, but the closing of Rent was 16 years.

[2:51] Alan Seales: Okay, well, yeah. All right. 16, 20, who's counting? But my point is that, you know, a lot of people out there listening are like, oh, I got to get to Broadway. Broadway's like the thing to make it, to be it, to be successful. And you did that. And then also continued to just take no shit in a way, right? Metaphorically, you're like, I'm not going to let lack of casting, lack of anything going, I guess, dissuade you. And I know that you, I've heard you talk before that you choose your projects carefully too. So just get into that a little bit because this was obviously, seems like it was very intentional.

[3:29] Eden Espinosa: Well, I think that having been, having had the experience that I did with Wicked for the amount of time that I was with it, you know, I did a contract every year from the beginning, from 2003 to 2010. And so to come back to a role that I knew very well, but was, you know, a different point in my life, every time I came back, I realized like, oh, I can continue on something that like, actually fills me up inside for a good amount of time. But during that time, I would also look around at other shows, at other roles, and really think like, is there anything else that like, I want to do that I have my sights on that I want to make happen? And I think that it just continued down the line of what is going to fulfill me creatively.

And I learned very quickly that the answer to that question wasn't always the thing that was going to fulfill my bank account very much. But it was also because at the end of that time, I was at an age where I wasn't quite the young ingenue anymore. But I wasn't old enough for roles that I'm doing now. And I think that's like a very in-between place of like, what do I have to offer? What do I want to do? And so I took a two-year acting program here in the studio. I mean, here in New York at the William Esper Studio, that changed my life. And then I started, you know, doing these world premieres of shows at reputable regional theaters, and always with the idea that they would come to New York, but most of them didn't. Or they have years later with other now other people because I've aged out or, you know.

And so, you know, it's odd right now. You know, I did the US premiere of that production of Merrily at the Huntington Theater in 2016. And now I've aged out. I developed Jersey and HK for three years. And then Lempicka, you know, so it's just like you're a part of things over the years. And if you're lucky enough to see it come all the way to New York, that's amazing. And sometimes it doesn't happen that way.

[6:02] Alan Seales: Wow. Okay, so you were developing Jersey in Hell's Kitchen, you said. I had forgotten about that. Because Shoshana's in that role now. And honestly, you look at it and you go, I can't see it with anybody else. Just vocally, that is the thing. And she is the thing. And you're like, yeah, I can't see anyone else in that role. I couldn't look back and see me in it. You know what I mean? Honestly.

[6:36] Eden Espinosa: Well, that's interesting, though. I mean, it's all a business right at the end of the day. And this is one of those businesses where you ultimately have to discriminate still based on age and the sexual, I guess, the sexual appearance, gender appearance, sorry. And, you know, just like you need someone to fit a role. And you need someone to make that character and make it believable, like the audience needs to believe. So, like, I'm sure everybody's been through this at your level of getting to a point where you can see the finish line. And then all of a sudden, like, just for whatever reason, the finish line just disappears. Funding drops out, casting happens, COVID happens, like all sorts of things just like, it's gone. Are you used to that sort of thing now? Or is that something where like, it still stings a little?

[7:31] Eden Espinosa: I think I'm a little more used to it just because my perspective on my life and my life within this business has evolved and matured with more experience that I have and just realizing like, the things that are meant for me are going to be for me and they're not going to pass me by. But that being said, it still does sting, of course, like, you know, you think you spend 11 years of your life with a show and you feel in your gut that it's special and you in everywhere you've done an iteration of it, people are just falling over themselves. And then you get here to New York and you think, oh, yeah, it's finally here and it's going to be the thing and everyone's going to be in love with it. And to have that not be the case is sure is heartbreaking.

There's a lot of emotional whiplash and like, grief that comes along with that. But then, you know, I know, I know that this is how it was supposed to be. I know it was meant to be here for that period of time and touch the people that it was meant to. And who knows, 10, 20 years down the road, if there'll be a revival of Lempicka that will take the season by storm, like, who knows?

[8:50] Alan Seales: That's interesting. Real quick, I purposely left out of the bio because I wanted to dive into this right now. But Gardens of Annunzio, one of my favorite shows of this season.

[9:00] Eden Espinosa: Oh my God, I love that. Thank you.

[9:03] Alan Seales: I absolutely one of my favorites. I love that space at LCT. And I love the story and all of you and the cast together. We're just brilliant. And that's one of those things too. I mean, everybody wants, again, the bank account fulfillment, the open-ended run, the wickeds of the world. When you have a short run, something like Gardens is that, I mean, I guess it allows you to plan for the next thing ahead of time, because you know when something's going to end. I mean, is that sort of bittersweet? Or are you just like, oh, God, you know, I want this transfer, I want it to get extended? Is there always the hope? Or is it just like, yeah, I'll just do the next thing?

[9:45] Eden Espinosa: I never hoped for Gardens to transfer because I just know the type of show that it is. And I know I knew Broadway is more and more limited as far as the scope of things. So we were just beyond thrilled that we got to Lincoln Center. And that, you know, of course, would there be hopes that we would extend? It crossed our mind. But the fact that we were there for that period of time was just such a gift. And we just ate every second up. Yeah, I like the limited run, especially for a show that, you know, isn't necessarily commercially viable in today's climate, you know.

[10:34] Alan Seales: When will it be today's climate? When will the climate be right?

[10:40] Eden Espinosa: I don't know. It's a good question. I mean, this kind of touches on Lempicka too. And Lempicka was not really, I was gonna say it was not well received by critics, but the community just rallied around it in a way that I haven't seen in a long time. And I think that's endemic of sort of a larger problem that we've got. When even in today, 2024, in the age of social media, and paid influencers galore, when a bad Times review can still kill a show. Like we've got so many other ways of getting the word out now.

[11:14] Eden Espinosa: Yeah. And even a step further than that is like everybody is a self-proclaimed theater critic on TikTok now. And they will say what they think. Sometimes in the theater before they leave.

[11:29] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah. And so it's funny because you're like, oh, you're just out there. And people are listening. But it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's under the lens of like, what are tourists gonna want to see when they come as well? And, you know, more and more, it's stuff that they're familiar with, whether it's a catalog of music or a book or a movie. It's that familiarity that they want to experience.

[12:10] Alan Seales: We shall see. Well, so then I want to go back to pre-experienced Eden. Like you started singing when you were three years old and out in LA and you've got a journey that takes you through theme parks, which I love. I've got a similar journey, although I didn't make it to Wicked yet myself. Maybe I'm right behind you.

[12:26] Eden Espinosa: Yet is the keyword.

[12:29] Alan Seales: So yeah, when you were three, like, when did you start singing? What was that all about?

[12:32] Eden Espinosa: I think I was just, I just remember being drawn to music and musicals and anything that had singing, dancing in it. And I was obsessed with old movies. I would, you know, sit and watch Shirley Temple, Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers, all those, Gene Kelly, all those old movies on Turner Classic Movies. I'd just sit there and be fascinated and watch. And I think, you know, I grew up in a time where there was barely VHS. So, you know, like Atari was the thing, you know, it was like there weren't a lot of things that kept you distracted other than your imagination or staying outside until the streetlights came on or, you know, making up games with your friends or putting on shows for the neighborhood or.

[13:23] Eden Espinosa: You know, stuff like that. So, I knew how to engage my imagination, I knew how to play. So, I just was always, something I always did. I don't think I was always like amazing at it. I wasn't an amazing singer at like five, but I think, you know, I just always loved to sing, and I would just play in my room, and sing, and make up dances, and do shows for my stuffed animals, and it was just always a part of me. Do you have any siblings? I have a younger brother, who I would rope into such shows.

[13:59] Alan Seales: I was going to say, was he either part of it, or was he your audience?

[14:04] Eden Espinosa: He was part of it. Was he the tree? The tree on the left? We would, I would make him sing duets with me. So, it would be like, I would make him do "Somewhere Out There" from American Tail, you know, those types of things. And begrudgingly, he would do it, and we would make up like, we would make up our own radio shows, and like record on a cassette tape, and we were the hosts, and you know, he would, we would read stories, and you know, tell people how to make a friendship bracelet. Like, it was just like a weird radio variety show that we would do.

[14:34] Eden Espinosa: Yeah, yes, yes, oh my gosh. Yes, you need a podcast to talk about friendship bracelets in theater.

[14:40] Alan Seales: That's exactly right. That's your title. There you go, you can take that. Friendship bracelets in theater, the podcast.

[14:43] Eden Espinosa: But yeah, so you were, so let's see, I forget where I was reading this, but I wrote it down. Let's see, singing at three, performing by five, recording by ten. So, at some point, you were taking it seriously enough as a kid of single digit age to be like, I want to start recording. I want to like really, really do this. And I guess, I guess, first off, what was, what took you there to the recording side? And then at that age, though, too, did you realize what you were doing? Or was it just like still playing games and having fun?

[15:17] Eden Espinosa: It was still very much still playing games and having fun. Although I knew that there were things that I wanted to be a part of that required me to audition, you know? So, I knew enough to be like, I want to do that mom, dad, will you take me to this? And it stemmed from, because I grew up, my dad was a worship leader and a pastor when I was growing up. And so, it stemmed from church experiences of these children groups that would record albums and film videos. And, you know, there were two big kid things at the time. It was Salty the Singing Songbook and Colby the Computer.

[15:59] Eden Espinosa: And so, I would do these recordings with Colby the Computer. And it was basically like Barney. You know, there was a computer that would tell you how to be kind to your friends and, you know, life lessons for kids.

[16:04] Alan Seales: Colby's Clubhouse, 1984?

[16:16] Eden Espinosa: Colby's Clubhouse, yeah.

[16:20] Alan Seales: I've never heard of this.

[16:27] Eden Espinosa: Yeah. And it would teach you, like, you know, Bible verses to songs, like, you know, and yeah.

[16:34] Alan Seales: Huh. Yeah. Season one, episode four, called Check Your Connection.

[16:41] Eden Espinosa: Was it really slow? Did you have to, like, do your dial up to connect to them?

[16:44] Alan Seales: No, I know. I see what you did there. What was Colby the Computer?

[16:57] Eden Espinosa: Okay, now I'm going to go down this rabbit hole of figuring out what Colby's Clubhouse is.

[17:13] Alan Seales: I was born in '80. I think this was a little bit, I was a little bit too young for this, I think.

[17:20] Eden Espinosa: Yeah, by the time I did it, I think I was ten. So, it was around '88.

[17:22] Eden Espinosa: Yeah, I did Colby's Clubhouse.

[17:24] Alan Seales: No kidding.

[17:26] Eden Espinosa: Yeah. Yes.

[17:30] Alan Seales: Wait, so you were on Colby's Clubhouse?

[17:30] Alan Seales: Oh, wow. Wow. So, can we, like, go back and find your episode? You remember what episode it was?

[17:38] Eden Espinosa: That I don't know, because this was, again, pre, you know, pre-streaming, pre-internet.

[17:42] Alan Seales: I mean, I'm going to find this, and if I find it, I'll send it to you, because it looks like they're all on YouTube now.

[17:45] Eden Espinosa: Okay. Oh, God, I'm scared.

[17:47] Alan Seales: So, then you're on the smash hit, Colby's Clubhouse. And then, obviously, the logical next step then becomes Disneyland.

[17:56] Eden Espinosa: Disney.

[17:58] Alan Seales: Right? So, is that what happened next?

[18:00] Eden Espinosa: I mean, that's, I, you know, I was in, I was in, like, you know, school, I did show choir, and, you know, all of stuff like that. And I grew up in Anaheim, which, you know, that's where Disneyland is. And I had family members who were in entertainment there. So, I really, just, like, really wanted to work there and be in entertainment there. And that's, though, I was in high school when I started working at Disney.

[18:29] Alan Seales: Was that an evening thing, a weekend thing? Because all the theme park experience I've got is, like, you do ten shows a day during the summer.

[18:33] Eden Espinosa: Yes, it was, it was a weekend thing. And then I did the parade, which I was 17, which was just on the weekends. I think they had different ages that could do different things. And then my senior year in high school, when I was almost graduated, was the first time I got a union job there. And I was in a stage show. And that's when I, that's when I could do more.

[19:03] Alan Seales: Did you get to be a princess?

[19:04] Eden Espinosa: Or were you a character?

[19:06] Eden Espinosa: No, not yet. I was, I was Gypsy number four in Festival of Fools, Hunchback Notre Dame, Festival of Fools. But the next show I did at Disney, I got to be friends with certain princesses.

[19:21] Alan Seales: There were the friend characters?

[19:24] Eden Espinosa: Yes, I was a friend of Ariel and a friend of Pocahontas.

[19:28] Alan Seales: Oh, okay. Okay. Time for a quick commercial break. Hang on a second.

[19:33] Alan Seales: Welcome back to the episode. I did Busch Gardens for, in Williamsburg, and I was the ignorant American trying to sell off his castle, auction off everything inside. And then the magical leprechaun comes in and teaches me a lesson about morals and, and loving my family.

[19:57] Eden Espinosa: The magical leprechaun. Wow.

[19:59] Alan Seales: It was a full, the rumor has it, million dollar Jim Henson set, like full animatronic face, puppet, everything.

[20:08] Eden Espinosa: And are we blessed to be able to find this on YouTube as well? Because I will be doing a deep dive as soon as we're done.

[20:14] Alan Seales: Yes, if you search for The Secrets of Castle O'Sullivan with Alan Seals. I actually have a recording of mine online. I'll send it to you.

[20:25] Eden Espinosa: Oh, please send me the link.

[20:27] Alan Seales: It's unlisted. It's not public. So those listening can't find it. Sorry. But yeah, it is. It's something. It is something. Anyway. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's see. So then, then you are out there, you're doing Disney thing. Then when did Wicked sort of come into all of this? Because I know, I know through talking with some others that Wicked was actually developed in California. And so were you, did you get connected when you were out there? Or did you come to New York to go back out there to develop it?

[20:57] Eden Espinosa: No, I wasn't. I wasn't involved that early on. I knew of it because both Stephanie J. Block and I are from Orange County, California. And so Stephanie was like a local goddess who was just the queen of all things.

[21:14] Alan Seales: Also a Disney character.

[21:17] Eden Espinosa: Yes, absolutely. So I knew that she was involved in developing this piece. And I didn't join until I was already living in New York and they had finished their out of town tryout. So actually, Stephanie was the one who called me and said, I've been cast in a show called Boy From Oz opposite Hugh Jackman. They're going to be looking for an Elphaba standby, understudy, whatever you should tell your agent that you want to go in. And so I did and that's how I went in.

[21:57] Eden Espinosa: And then they were like, do you want to be the standby or do you want to be the understudy? And because I was already attached to Brooklyn and I wanted that to be my big splash, I was like, I'll be the standby where I don't perform every night and I just hang around and wait until Brooklyn comes around. Little did I know that Wicked was going to be the worldwide phenomenon that it is and that it was. So that's how that happened.

[22:22] Alan Seales: That's really cool that they gave you the choice to choose between understudy and standby.

[22:27] Eden Espinosa: And so standby, was that more pressure? Because that's like, I mean, you have to hang around in case something like immediately breaks in that moment, right?

[22:38] Eden Espinosa: Yeah. To me, because I did not have experience in... I had done the out-of-town tryout for Brooklyn, the musical. So that was my first experience with eight shows a week and having to maneuver any of that. So to me, it was less pressure because I'm like, oh, they pay me to do what? Sit around? Okay, great. And the fact that Idina Menzel was the hugest hero of mine because I fell in love with Rent and Maureen and I was just like, I get to be her standby and go on when she doesn't go on. I want to do that. I'll just do that.

[23:25] Eden Espinosa: But then there was a whole month... All the while thinking that, oh, it's only because I want Brooklyn to be my first big thing where I'm actually on stage every night. I want that to be for Brooklyn.

[23:40] Alan Seales: That's cool that at that point, you were still focused on, I guess, being very selective about what you were choosing to spend your time on. And the projects you took and what roles you took in those projects, it's not just like saying yes to everything, which a lot of people I think fall into this trap of just being like, what's my next thing? I have to take something.

[24:02] Eden Espinosa: Yeah.

[24:03] Alan Seales: So where did that come from?

[24:04] Eden Espinosa: That's very much a thing. I actually don't know. Here's the other thing. I think that I've always really checked in with myself because there were years upon years where I worked at Disney where people were like, you need to be in New York, you need to go to New York. And then I just thought, I'm happy here. I'll go to New York when something takes me there. There was just something in my spirit that wasn't like, yeah, I need to go there now. I was like, I'm actually making a good living here at home performing and spending my college years working at Universal, working at Disney.

[24:43] Eden Espinosa: So I think once I started doing eight shows a week and realizing how much work it is and how much I put into it, I just knew I would be miserable in something that I didn't love, in something that didn't fill me up creatively and challenge me. So I just knew it's odd even when your show closes and people are like, so what's next? Do you have anything lined up? I'm like, you do understand that I was contracted for a year. We just found out two weeks ago we were closing and we just closed on Sunday. I have no idea what's next because I was blocked out.

[25:29] Eden Espinosa: I was unavailable. So it's like that thing you're at your wedding and people are like, so when are you guys going to have kids? You're like, we actually just got married.

[25:38] Alan Seales: So it's a weird thing. I moved into a new apartment while we were in rehearsals and there's still aspects of this place that aren't organized. I'm like, I haven't fully nested in my home. I want to just take a minute. What is this time like? This is actually really interesting that you pointed that out because the last interview I was listening to prep for this one, it was the day... Stagecraft with Gordon Cox is You, the Amber Iman and I think you were recording the day before Tony nominations. The world still hadn't been turned upside down and the nominations were down and the snubs hadn't happened and this pre and post Tony stuff.

[26:24] Eden Espinosa: Again, it could obviously at a much larger level make or break a show. And so now at this point, I guess, is there a parallel between how you're sitting right now and in your life, in your mind, in your career? You said you were contracted for a year. That was the expectation. It wasn't going to be a short thing. And then what happened happened.

[26:47] Eden Espinosa: Versus being in a closing cast of something like Rent, where you're not originating a role, it's not a world premiere, it's still well known, and people love it, but you know like, okay, this is the end, we're closing the book. You know, is the- I guess first off, yeah, how are you feeling now, sort of, that this is unexpected and unexpected closing, and then like, compare it to a little bit about, you know, this closing cast of Rent or something, because that was something that every- that so many people were so- were so torn up about, because it, like, me included, influenced me to get into theatre in the first place.

[27:20] Lauren Ruffin: Yeah, same. Yeah, I mean, with that one, I knew- I knew what it was. We- I knew it was closing. I knew we were going to be the closing cast. So, that was just like, to me, just as much of an honor as originating. Like, you know, the fact that we- we were handpicked, we were chosen, and that was one of two jobs- one of two jobs that I haven't had to audition for in my life, that I was just asked, you know, will you come and do this? And so, you know a show like that is going to go out on a, you know, on a high note. At the time, we didn't know we were filming it, you know, so that came later, and was a beautiful surprise as well. With this, it's like, you know, of course, in the back of your mind, and in your heart, you know, anything can happen.

But because we've spent so much time with this show, because I have personally experienced the- the impact it had on me when I saw other iterations before I was a part of it, and the impact it had on every audience we've ever been in front of, I- I don't think anybody, including our producers, expected it to be what it was. You know, of course, we didn't know it was going to be- if it was going to be the next IT show, but we didn't- nobody expected this, as short as it was. And, you know, it's just- it's the beautiful thing about theater, that it's- it's this living, breathing thing for the amount of time that it's there. And if you missed it, you missed it. And if you were there, you were there.

But the heartbreaking thing is also, it's- that's it. Like, it's- it's over. And I did a little interview yesterday, and it was- we walked down 48th, and I was like, Sunday, we were here closing the show. Like, they loaded out already. Like, our set is gone, our- and it's over. Like, I was just there pouring my guts out eight shows a week, and now, you know, it's- it's crazy. And- and again, it's- it's equally the juxtaposition of how beautiful that is, and- and how- how bittersweet and heartbreaking it can be on the- on the other side of it.

[29:09] Eden Espinosa: I'm trying to remember which- which red carpet I was on. What's directly across from the Majestic? St. James. No, Majestic is on 45th. Yeah, right across- or 44th. I was- I was interviewing all these wonderful people for whatever show opening I was on, and then literally, like, I turn around, and they're loading out the Phantom Chandelier, and they're loading- they're just, like, taking everything out, and it's- all of a sudden, it just becomes another theater, another- another job, another black box for someone to come in and hopefully pour their guts out. Create something.

[30:27] Lauren Ruffin: Create something, yeah. And I- I think- I think it's going to come back. That's my- that's my- I have no inside knowledge. I have no- nothing- nothing. I think they're gonna- I think they're gonna take it away, do a couple tweaks, bring it all back with a different production cost. It is crazy. You're not- everybody- everybody says that, or that it's going to London, or that they're gonna, you know, I don't know, but everybody in their spirit is like, this isn't the end. And I think especially in a season where- where Merrilee, all these years later, is so well-received, and it's pretty much the same production that- like, they haven't reworked the script, you know what I mean? And it's just, like, that could very well happen 20 years down the line, and I'll play the Baroness, and we'll call it a day.

[31:21] Eden Espinosa: Another 20 years when Wicked's still running, you could go back in as Madame Morrible. Babe, I've- Telsea already knows the deal. I'm like, put me on the list, whenever you think I'm of the right age, put me in. We need to do some- some gender swapping of- of a couple, like, maybe we- you go as Bach right now.

[31:42] Lauren Ruffin: Well, I also was like, I would be Dr. Dillamond if you wanted-

[31:45] Eden Espinosa: Oh, sure.

[31:45] Lauren Ruffin: If you ever wanted- in a heartbeat.

[31:47] Eden Espinosa: Why wouldn't- why can't Dr. Dillamond be played by a woman?

[31:50] Lauren Ruffin: I agree.

[31:51] Eden Espinosa: There we go. We're putting it out there. Dr. Dillamond.

[31:54] Lauren Ruffin: Played by Eden, there we go. Yes, I- I think it's a great idea.

[31:57] Eden Espinosa: But, okay, so, Damaro de Lempicka- Tam- Tamaro, not Damaro. Tamaro de Lempicka, who is Lempicka, for those who don't know, who didn't get to see this run?

[32:09] Eden Espinosa: Yeah, Tamaro- Tamaro de Lempicka is a portrait painter of the Art Deco period of Polish descent, who fled during the Bolshevik Revolution to Paris, in which she started painting full-time to provide for her family and make a living in a country where they had to start over. And then later, down the line, fled again with the Nazis and- and all of that. This was a woman who was very, you know, ahead of her time in- in many different ways. She was a queer woman, but also she notoriously had affairs with both men and women. You know, had the- the drive and the ambition and the business mind of everything that a man- in a man would be admirable and attractive, and for some reason in a woman is- is not. She's an incredibly complex, interesting, nuanced human.

[33:08] Lauren Ruffin: Is that- is that what attracted you to her?

[33:11] Eden Espinosa: Yeah, I think the fact that she was messy, you know, it wasn't- she wasn't necessarily the hero. There wasn't necessarily a redeeming moment. The fact that it was always this, like, you know, this claiming space and grabbing after what you wanted and trying to make a way for herself in a world that wasn't designed for her, or welcoming of her. So, those types of things in a- in a female character are just not there. It doesn't exist as- as human as- as the writers made her, and that is very attractive to me, for sure.

[33:54] Lauren Ruffin: Well, then how did you get involved with it?

[33:57] Eden Espinosa: I read that you had to audition- you had to audition a couple times, and was- at this point, was Rachel already involved with it?

[34:05] Eden Espinosa: Rachel Chavkins?

[34:07] Eden Espinosa: Yeah, I- I had- I had seen another show, a presentation of another show that Matt Gould had written, and I- I sent him a message because I just- I had to sit in the theater. This was a piece called Witness Yvonda, and I'd sit in the theater afterward, and I was just crying for, like, 20 minutes at- at this piece, and I sent him a message, um, you know, is there anything else I'd love to hear, just to listen to anything else you're- you're working on, and he sent me Lempicka, which had other people attached for years, until, you know, we became friends, and he was like, you know, I've- I've always sort of thought of you for this role, and I don't know down the line, like, if you would do it, or if, you know, and I- the first reading I did was a very casual reading at Yale in 2013, and that- and I actually played Raffaella in that version, and then, um, yeah, it still went to other people, um, they shifted maybe two other times, and then it was Lempicka, what had been accepted to the NAMT Festival, was going to do it there, and the person who was attached to it then got really sick three days before, and so Matt called me and was like, do you think that you'd be able to do it, and meanwhile, I had literally been listening to the demos, like, for a couple years at this point, um, and, uh, I said sure, so that's- that's the first time that the show got commercial- uh, producers interested in- in being attached to it, they wanted a bigger name, so they were like, thank you for- thank you for saving the day, but no thank you, uh, and, um, that's very kind, uh, so the bigger name was a part of one reading, and then went on to do bigger things, because, um, and- and that's when I had to- Rachel was involved at that point, and that's when I re-auditioned, there were three rounds of auditions, and that was right before Williamstown, huh, and then ever since then, I made sure it was in my contract that if you wanted to replace me, you'd have to pay me.

[36:22] Lauren Ruffin: Ooh, that's smart.

[36:22] Eden Espinosa: Because I was like, you're not doing this to me again, like, you know, um.

[36:28] Lauren Ruffin: Yeah, that's- that's smart, you take it- take a page out of Patti LuPone's book, you get that Andrew Lloyd Webber pool money.

[36:32] Eden Espinosa: Yeah. That's so cool, so then when it's coming to Broadway, and, um, and you're diving into this, I mean, in- in a- in a season, this season is so unbelievably crowded, and there's a lot of properties we already know, a lot of, like, movie adaptations, and book adaptations, and jukebox musicals that have, you know, like, things that are out there, and- and then this- this was like a concept that I think was brand new to so many people, and it resonated with an audience in a way that I haven't seen a lot of the other shows do, and I- and I think it's a lot to do with the- with the representation that- that you're bringing on stage, right? So, I mean, was that when- in Williamstown, and- and then even when you're coming to Broadway, too, like, all of these, um, the conversations you're starting to hear that people are having to you and about you, um, when did you notice that was sort of shifting towards, I guess, yeah, just around the representation and about, like, bringing in something that we desperately need?

[37:40] Eden Espinosa: Yeah, I think it was, you know, I think we always knew we were a wild card. I always knew it was going to be a tough sell. I always knew it was going to take a minute to find its audience, but I knew that it would. I just think that, like, nobody anticipated the numbers being as low as they were, and because our tickets were accessible, they were not very high priced. So, but I think that, like, it was super important to me. This isn't the first time I've played a queer person, but- and- but every time, it's super important that it's believable, that it's real, and that- that queer people wouldn't look at me and say, that's never how it would be, you know? I know there have been times that I've been like, I don't know if I fully buy this love story between, you know, I just- it was very important to me that it was as authentic as it would be with a man and a woman.

The cool thing about our show is we had both examples, you know, at once, which was really cool and fun for me to play. How- how Tamara's relationship and essence was different with her husband than it was with her lover. I think seeing two women of color step into these roles as queer women was also a very important thing for people to see, and it was a responsibility that the entire cast, the themes that we've- we've faced, we held in- in a very high regard, and was very- an honor to depict and to represent. And so, because of, you know, but I also was like, there's nothing like our show out there right now. Like, you know, nothing that sounded like it, nothing that looked like it. So I, you know, I think that was the other thing that we thought, all right, we have- we have a shot.

Also, our- our- where we were in the season two, later. So we were like, okay, we can make it. We can make it. But yeah, it was a- you know, I've said to some people, it was definitely a dismissal. Like, we got dismissed. We didn't get panned. We got dismissed. You know, it- I think it would have been better if we got panned. People were like, this is the worst thing I've ever seen. People would want to see the worst thing they've ever seen. That's like, this smells horrible. Here, you smell it. That's right. Exactly.

[40:10] Eden Espinosa: Exactly. But because it was actually dismissed, like we, you know, we celebrate every show that got recognition, but like the fact that we didn't get score, the fact that we didn't get lights, we didn't get cost, like there were just things that we were like, oh, we have a shot at this for sure, you know. And because the creative team have, you know, it's like a 15-year journey for them. I wanted that most of all. I wanted it for Matt and Carson, most of all, over myself, 100%. And at that point, it feels deliberate a little bit. I don't know why, but I'm like, the fact that score didn't get a nod anywhere at any of them, I was like, that feels deliberate. An original, like, I don't know, it's just, I don't know. But-

[41:01] Alan Seales: Is there any, is survivor's guilt the right term? Is there any survivor's guilt for like being the nomination?

[41:08] Eden Espinosa: No. No. I would have had it if I didn't get it. I would have had more guilt if I didn't, to be honest. If I, if, if Amber and I hadn't got recognized, I think I would have felt guiltier than getting it. Because I honor the, I mean, who's to say if it was a different score, if I would have been recognized?

[41:36] Alan Seales: Right.

[41:38] Eden Espinosa: You know, I'm, I'm, I am bringing this material to life. And so the fact that we got recognized, I think is, is also a nod to everyone on that stage and in that crew and every designer. And, but no, I think, I think I would have felt worse if I hadn't got one on their behalf. Do you know what I mean?

[42:04] Alan Seales: I do. I do. And, and I, so honestly, I expected you to say yes. And then I was going to say, and then I was going to say, but Eden, you're, you're bringing to life their amazing work and you're, but literally you just said that. So yes, yes, yes, yes.

[42:21] Eden Espinosa: And here's what, honestly, a former version of myself, a younger version of myself, this, I have never, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. This role is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And it's, it was not easy for me. None of it was easy. And, and because Tamara was who she was, she forced me, especially this iteration to really step into myself and take up space and not apologize. And so another version of me might've said that, but I know, and, and I know the work that I did up there. And, and even if I didn't get recognized, I was going to, I literally do in my heart. It isn't because of the work that I did. I'm, I'm actually very, very proud of our show and very proud of what I did on that stage eight times a week. I think that's part of, I'm part of the reason why I can say like, I don't feel guilty that I got nominated. I feel proud because like, it's because of what they wrote.

[43:24] Alan Seales: Well, I don't think you should feel guilty. I think you deserve it. You deserve it. You've, you crushed it. And I mean, it's, yeah, it's your, it's your time. You know, it's hard. It's hard for a lot of people speaking for myself to take a compliment and step into the spotlight and be like, well, I'm here, but I guess nobody else was like, I'm always justifying why I'm not as good as other people. Or, you know, like one of those things, right? It just taking compliments is just hard. And I don't understand why. And to get a nomination, I think, yeah, I'm just glad I'm very glad that you are stepping into that and, and embracing that. And because, because it's deserved. And I agree with that.

[44:04] Alan Seales: Time for a quick commercial break. Hang on a second. Welcome back to the episode. So now being 2024, back on, back on Broadway. And then, the last time, what was it? We said that in 2008, right?

[44:19] Eden Espinosa: Yeah. So like that was the beginning of Facebook and the beginning of going on the web for everything. And like, it doesn't seem like we've ever not had social media, but it's relatively still new.

[44:33] Alan Seales: Yeah. So did that kind of change? How this experience was for you? Or were you just like, you know, still tuning out the outside world and focusing on taking up space?

[44:40] Eden Espinosa: Yes, it did change. It did have an impact and change. I think, you know, right when Wicked was happening, for me was, was right when like, social media started to become a thing. Right when chat rooms were started up, you know, Facebook was a little bit new. When I was doing Rent, it was like, I, I joined Facebook when I did Rent. So in 2008 is when I joined, then Twitter happened after that. So it's like, this time around, I had to be aware of, like, like I said before, like, I had to be aware of these self-proclaimed critics on TikTok, and not watch all of them, because they weren't all positive. And, and that's okay, you're allowed to think whatever you want. But like, that started that I was like, Oh, this is a slippery slope that I don't want to go down in any way, shape or form.

So stop looking at those scroll right past them. And of course, there's bootlegs already all over that are not my best. And I'm like, Oh, here we go again. But it's just part of the acceptance of I'm a human being, and I'm not always going to nail it. And that's okay. And that's it.

[46:08] Alan Seales: I appreciate that. I do. I do. And it's, and it's hard the the bootlegs, the recordings.

[46:14] Eden Espinosa: Oh, I, oh, I did read something that you I think it was God, I've been reading a lot. I think I appreciate your preparation. Was it during the final performance where you talk to somebody in the audience? You're like, put that away?

[46:27] Eden Espinosa: Yes. So you Yeah, okay. So what is what is that story? I was like, no shit. But yeah, she did that. It was towards the end of the show. It was right before the finale. I finished this song. And during this song, I'm a you know, I'm aging back to where we were in the beginning. It's called blasted California sun. And I'm sitting on a bench. And at some point, like right during during the last couple lines of the song, I see this person, six to eight rows back center. And she lifted up her camera above her head. Like not even you know, not even a discreet person. I know it. Yes, I'd like I know what's happening out there. And if you're discreet, I'm not going to call you out. Like if it doesn't distract me, fine, do your thing, whatever.

But it was straight up like, like at an amusement park, like I'm gonna get this last moment, this last 10 minutes of the show, if you will. And so I first went like that, like put the phone like that, and she didn't do it. And then as soon as I finished my last line, I was like, what's that it is a bitch to outlive everyone. And then I said, everyone and I grabbed my cane. And by this point, I'm old Tamara again. And I said, put the phone down soon as I'm singing. What I couldn't tell is if my mic was still on or not. Because our mixer Cassie is just like the best in the biz. So super good at like bringing you up and down. And apparently it was on. My friends told me after the show, Oh, no, it was on.

And, you know, I said, put the phone down. And she put the phone down. And because it was, you know, all of a sudden, I'm all I'm looking at is you above your head. And I'm, you know, so it is it did happen. So to character as much as possible, to dispel any myths, audience people listening now, Broadway, we can see you on stage, we see you with the and the worst is with the flash, where they forget to turn the flash off.

[48:44] Eden Espinosa: Yes. And then you in the balcony, it's reflective, the lights are reflecting off a plastic surface, we can see that. Yeah, it's, it's so distracting. I, I love the people who slash and by love, I mean, don't like at all, who are just like looking down in their laps, have their phones like in their in their crotch, with the light on full blast. They're like, I'm just gonna and literally, I look over and like, what are they doing? It's so important. And it's fucking Facebook. Oh, my God. No, Instagram texting. I'm like, it can't wait. 30 minutes, half an hour, like one hour, two hours, just turn it off. And then there are so many the alarms. Yes, alarms still go off if your phone is on silent. Yes, that is a little known fact. There are so many times I wish that, that, that Broadway would pull like Madonna does, or any of these celebrities that that put the thing in the Ziploc and you can't unlock it until you leave.

[49:43] Alan Seales: Yes. Yeah.

[49:44] Eden Espinosa: Freestyle Love Supreme did that. It was great.

[49:49] Alan Seales: Oh yes, that's right.

[49:50] Eden Espinosa: Yeah. Yeah, that was the first my first experience with FLS. And then right after that, another standard. It was Take Me Out.

[49:55] Alan Seales: Was it?

[49:56] Eden Espinosa: Oh, right. Take Me Out did that. Because of the because of the nude pictures of Jesse Williams on the internet. Yeah, gotta get that. That's the last show I went to that the Broadway that made me put it put it in.

[50:06] Alan Seales: Yeah, well, anyway, I mean, Jesse's peepee, you know, yes, that happens. Okay. Let's see. So as we wind down here, I want to play a little game called plot in 60 seconds.

[50:20] Eden Espinosa: Okay, okay.

[50:29] Alan Seales: And so I'm gonna put 30 seconds up at the screen for you. Don't be scared. Don't be scared. 60 seconds up at the clock. Give me a number that corresponds it corresponds to a list of popular musicals I have and then you have to give me that plot in 60 seconds. Okay, number one through 13.

[50:42] Eden Espinosa: Oh, I just give you an What do you mean give you a list of musicals?

[50:47] Alan Seales: Seven, seven, seven.

[50:53] Eden Espinosa: The Sound of Music go.

[50:59] Alan Seales: 60 seconds remaining.

[51:00] Eden Espinosa: A former nun turned nanny takes care of some kids falls in love with the captain the Nazis come.

[51:09] Alan Seales: Nine seconds. We're done.

[51:16] Eden Espinosa: Okay. Okay.

[51:19] Alan Seales: I like it. I like it. I'll take it. I will go see that.

[51:25] Eden Espinosa: Okay, and curtain.

[51:27] Alan Seales: All right. So the three standard closing questions I ask everyone to wrap up the interviews. The first one just very simply is what motivates you?

[51:30] Eden Espinosa: What motivates me? I think connection. Connection in any way, shape or form. And I just want to connect with people.

[51:39] Alan Seales: Me too. All right. What advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[51:44] Eden Espinosa: You are one of a kind. Nobody can do what you do like you do it and don't ever forget that.

[51:53] Alan Seales: What advice would you give younger Lempika? This is a bonus question. You don't have to.

[52:00] Eden Espinosa: You don't have to be so afraid. I feel like I feel like somebody who has to leave their life as they know it and in an upheaval and is always having to navigate spaces for fear of persecution, for fear of death, for fear of, you know, oppression, not being accepted. Their mind is always in survival mode. I would want her to not be so afraid.

[52:29] Alan Seales: That's beautiful. All right. The last question, hardest one. If you can only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you say?

[52:37] Eden Espinosa: Musical. Sure. Or, or was it TV show? Any show, any show, whatever you want. You're stuck on a desert island with with a DVD player and strange solar power.

[52:44] Eden Espinosa: New Girl.

[52:50] Alan Seales: The New Girl. It's New Girl.

[52:50] Eden Espinosa: Okay. Fair enough.

[52:52] Alan Seales: Where can we connect with you online?

[52:54] Eden Espinosa: Oh, I'm at Eden Espinosa on Instagram and I think TikTok. But I don't post anything on TikTok, mostly Instagram, Eden Espinosa.

[53:06] Alan Seales: Fair, fair. You can then, well, find me on threads, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and leave a rating and review. This is a podcast. So, you know, help spread the word. It helps podcast grow. And thanks to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music. And Eden, thank you so much. It's been so much fun.

[53:21] Eden Espinosa: Thank you having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.