This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Alan Seales: It's The Sweet One! Welcome to another episode of The Theatre Podcast. Intimate, personal conversations with theatre's biggest names. I'm Alan Seales.

[0:15] Dylan: What is Lil' Sweet? Like, what is he supposed to be? I'm sorry. I'm Dylan, you know this. I'm not okay. What is this?

[0:22] Alan Seales: The Lil' Sweet. Okay, so this episode is with Justin Guarini, who is from the original season of American Idol, 2002, who was also, in case for those who didn't know, Lil' Sweet from the Diet Dr. Pepper commercial. He's done so many things, but that seems to be your favorite and you keep singing it and I don't understand.

[0:40] Dylan: It's such a catchy little tune, you know. It's The Sweet One!

[0:43] Alan Seales: Good job, Dr. Pepper. You've done your job.

[0:45] Dylan: Yeah, cool. It's stuck in my head. Thanks. So, this dude, I am pumped, man. The interview, the conversation was phenomenal. I didn't know what to expect meeting him because he's not that active in Broadway, but he's done a few shows.

[0:57] Alan Seales: Yeah, he's done a bunch of stuff. He just hasn't done anything super recently, but he is definitely a Broadway guy.

[1:02] Dylan: Yeah, he's a Broadway guy, performance guy, obviously a wonderful singer, and he has learned, you hear the story in the interview, just learned from what he calls failures, right? He wins this huge success and fame in Idol, and then less than a year later is sitting in this mansion with tons of money, literally millions of dollars, and is so unhappy.

[1:30] Alan Seales: And everything goes wrong.

[1:30] Dylan: And everything goes wrong.

[1:31] Alan Seales: He's 22 years old and you're given the world and then all of a sudden they're like, never mind.

[1:36] Dylan: Yeah, and now, he talks about this. He found himself. He figured out who he is. He just turned 40 recently. Looks amazing, by the way.

[1:47] Alan Seales: It does not look 40. Please Google him. Please Google Justin. Justin, you're amazing. Please let me know what your skincare routine is.

[1:54] Dylan: Him and Chris Sieber, those are the two you've said that for. But yeah, he has found himself as an entrepreneur and a teacher. And he says that he loves to teach, he loves to give back, and he's a humanitarian who fights for the arts and to not cut funding in schools. And is a successful actor and voiceover artist and performer of all sorts of different ways, is just like, I think he had this huge high and then this huge low. And now, however many years later, he's just himself and so comfortable in his own skin.

[2:30] Alan Seales: He found what makes him happy because what everyone told him was going to make him happy didn't. And so, he's like, let's stop and reevaluate and find what works for me. And I really respect that.

[2:39] Dylan: Yeah, I agree. Okay. So, as always, before we get into this here, I just got to plug our socials and our website. You can find us theater underscore podcast on Instagram and Twitter. You can visit ttp.fm to find us online, ttp.fm slash Patreon to show your support.

[2:55] Alan Seales: If you want to know who's going to be on our podcast before everybody else and you want a chance to ask a question, become a $5 patron and we'll tell you.

[3:03] Alan Seales: You probably know my guest today from the very first season of American Idol back in 2002. Or you may know him from his appearances on the Broadway stage, including Wicked, American Idiot, Romeo and Juliet, Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown, and most recently in Transit. He's also Lil Sweet in the Diet Dr. Pepper commercials and now the host of his newly launched Audition Secrets podcast. Justin Bell Guarini, welcome to the Theatre Podcast.

[3:44] Justin Guarini: Hey, thank you very much. It's very nice to be here.

[3:45] Alan Seales: So, I want to start real quick. Why add Bell? Because you're just Justin Guarini from Idol Days.

[3:52] Justin Guarini: You know what's really interesting? Yeah, I'm actually getting rid of that. I added it and then I realized that... The reason why I added it is because it's actually my name. I originally on the Idol paperwork had put that in there, but I think it got lost in translation. And so, it's my maiden name, I guess, really, more than anything else. I took on Guarini because that's my stepfather's name out of respect for what he's done for me and for my family and continues to do. And mean no disrespect to my father, who's awesome and amazing dad. You know what I mean? It's not like one of those sob stories, but it just somehow got lost in translation. And once you get known for something in your name or whatever it is, you got to keep it.

And so, I was like, well, let me... As I start this new chapter in my life with Audition Secrets, let me see if I can throw the bell back in there. And it just seemed like one of those things where it was like, hi, I'm Justin Bell Guarini. And people are like, wait a minute, Bell? And they've missed all the information that's come after that, right? So anyway, that won't be there for long.

[4:51] Alan Seales: Oh, interesting. Okay. So, Justin Guarini, welcome to the Theatre Podcast.

[4:55] Justin Guarini: Thank you very much. It's lovely to be here.

[4:58] Alan Seales: I have to say, seeing you in person, you have some great skin.

[5:01] Justin Guarini: Hey, thank you very much. Yeah, hey, black don't crack. But I take very good care of it. I try as best I can. I pass it on to my children. You know what I mean? I'm constantly slathering them up. My wife and I both are slathering them up every single day with sunscreen.

[5:20] Alan Seales: Better parent than I am. I'm just like, get out of the house. You're annoying me. I don't care.

[5:23] Justin Guarini: Oh, there's that too.

[5:24] Alan Seales: Well, okay. So, speaking of kids, let's talk about you. As a child, where did you grow up?

[5:32] Justin Guarini: I was born in Columbus, Georgia. And my mother was a news anchor on one of the local, I think maybe ABC affiliates, funny enough. And my father was a police officer. And so, fast forward, a couple of years later, this news company started by Ted Turner that no one had ever heard of, called Central News Network, started. And my mom was tapped to be one of the anchors on CNN when it first started up.

[6:01] Alan Seales: I've got James Earl Jones going through my head right now.

[6:03] Justin Guarini: Yeah, exactly, right? Yeah. And so, that was my childhood growing up in front of the cameras. And I would go play on the balsa wood set of the news sets. If you've ever been on a news set, you know what I mean. They're the most flimsy, scrapsiest things, but they look great on camera. And so, I would do that and would wake up at like five o'clock in the morning and she'd be putting on the extra thick makeup that you could wear back in those days. And then my dad became chief of police in Atlanta. And so, I was constantly surrounded by dignitaries, famous people, lights, cameras. When I was five, I'll never forget, somebody let me run the teleprompter at CNN, which at the time was like when you go to the grocery store and you have a grocery belt, you put your stuff down on, well, it was like that.

Now, we use computers, but then it was literally you had to put out printed pages onto said grocery belt, had a little knob that made the grocery belt go slower or faster. And then over top of the grocery belt pointing down was another camera that would then beam the picture to the anchor. And some idiot let a five-year-old run that during a live CNN broadcast. It was crazy, but that's kind of how I grew up.

[7:25] Alan Seales: Wow. Okay, so that was five and you were controlling everyone's perception of the news. Hello. But at four, you joined the Atlanta Boys Choir?

[7:37] Justin Guarini: I did, yeah. They let me audition a year earlier because I guess I could carry a tune in the bucket, as they say. And yeah, they accepted me a year earlier and it was a really amazing and also terrifying experience because here I was this four-year-old going into this situation where literally my conductor's name was Wolfgang. And he was a very stern man. And all the things that you think of those choir directors being, the stereotypical choir director of a really prestigious choir and organization, he was that, but he was also brilliant. And here I am, this little shrimp walking in as a soprano. And I'll never forget the first time I was late to a rehearsal because here I am walking in, literally toddling into the door and terrified. Even then, I knew that that was not a cool thing to do.

[8:29] Alan Seales: Yes, he's walking and you're like, you're scared of Wolfgang? Was it all little kids or were there big kids?

[8:43] Justin Guarini: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it was the boys choir. So I was in it with, I don't know if there were men, I was four. There's only so many memories I have. But just that moment, whatever happened, I remember being terrified. That was most of my boy choir experience was just being terrified, praying I sang the right note.

[9:02] Alan Seales: But okay, so how old are your kids now?

[9:08] Justin Guarini: Six, eight, and my stepdaughter's 14.

[9:15] Alan Seales: Wow. Okay, so six and eight. I have an almost three-year-old and a four-and-a-half-year-old. And now, things are happening that they will remember now.

[9:21] Justin Guarini: Yeah. Like walking into the boys choir late.

[9:26] Alan Seales: Yes, yes. Good and bad memories. Do you think about that when, as a dad, you're like, oh man, I'm going to take them to see behind the scenes or meet Patti LuPone or whoever it is?

[9:32] Justin Guarini: Always. Are you thinking about that? You know, one of the greatest things that my father ever did for me was he exposed me to the world. He exposed me to the entertainment industry. Of course, he kept me very safe while all that was happening. And so, I got to see things from, I don't want to say like be in it, but not of it.

[9:48] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[9:49] Justin Guarini: And so, I'm always thinking that. I'm trying to bring my kids to my shows that I'm in, like during In Transit, for example. They have Broadway babysitters. It's this great service that will babysit your kids during the show. That is a brilliant business model right there.

[10:07] Alan Seales: It is, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's so, so great and what a niche. And so, I clacked on my phone. It was like, Broadway babysitters, can you please send a babysitter? And they have the most wonderful, and their actors are the actual babysitters themselves, right? And so, my kids got to go, hang out in the lobby, play fun games, be there, sneak in to see me singing some of my songs. And I love bringing them backstage. I love exposing them to as much of my world as I can. I remember I recorded the soundtrack for Paint Your Wagon, which I did at Encores. And there's this beautiful 30, 40-piece orchestra. And Rob Berman is up there and doing his thing. And it sounds so gorgeous. And I felt so lucky that I could bring my oldest son to see that and to hear that because it's just like, that doesn't happen anymore.

I mean, the expense of just getting any musicians into the studio, myself included, but really like, orchestral musicians, it's just so, so expensive and nobody does it anymore. And to be able to show him that and just have him be a part of that just made me feel so good.

[11:26] Alan Seales: That's so cool. Okay, okay. So back to you for a little bit. Enough about me. So when did you actually start performing on stage? Or how did you fall into this? Because you were in Boys Choir and then...

[11:33] Justin Guarini: Fall into it is a really interesting way. I remember singing and performing. I mean, the first time I ever really remember that was being in the car with my dad and singing Ashford and Simpson's Solid as a Rock, which most of the people listening to this podcast might not be old enough to remember. And so sang that and then got into the Boys Choir. So the Boys Choir definitely was my first stage experience. But I had a very interesting sort of entree into theater. I was in elementary school and junior high and we would always sing on the stage. And in elementary school, I remember there was just those divider walls that kind of fold into the wall. Well, we had one of those.

[12:25] Justin Guarini: I was in the lunchroom, and literally there was the lunchroom on one side and the choir room on the other side. And we would sometimes have these performances where they'd fold that wall back and we'd be singing for the lunchroom. Which is like, you know, really truly prepared me for my first theatre gig, which was a dinner theatre by the way. And so I really think my first sort of like, oh my goodness, I can't believe this is so awesome. And like, how did I never... was when I was 15 and I worked at the Capers Dinner Theatre in Pipersville, Pennsylvania. And I live probably about 20 minutes away from that right now, my wife and I and three kids. And we were there because it's just like, it's like Brooklyn Heights in the woods, the town that I live in.

And so I was 15, and I get this gig at the dinner theatre, and it opened my eyes to so many things. Like I had fallen in love with Phantom, right? That's my first memory of musical theatre. And the memory that goes along with that was running and hiding underneath my sheets as a little, little boy because I was so terrified. Because I think Sarah Brightman at many points, you know, Christine screams throughout that soundtrack and other people are screaming throughout the soundtrack and that big huge organ and just terrifying for a small kid. And then fast forward to 15, I find myself in high heels, a sequined dress with fake boobs and a big like sort of fruit hat, like one of those big sort of Carmen Miranda deals, singing I am what I am from La Cage.

And like, loving getting to screw around with like the old farts who are coming to the dinner theatre. And it just opened my eyes to so much theatre and musical theatre that I had not experienced up to that point. And I fell in love with it after that.

[14:10] Alan Seales: And you were playing instruments already by this point? Because I read that you play piano, guitar and banjo.

[14:18] Justin Guarini: Where did you see banjo? I can play one of the one of the fake banjos, like the guitar banjos, six stringers. Wikipedia, maybe? I don't know. Wikipedia lied to you, man. I don't play banjo to save my life. I probably could do and then that would be it, that the gun would go off. No, I play guitar and piano. But I would say I was, you know, struggling through piano at that point. And I say guitar and piano, especially lightly. All of my theory, my theoretical knowledge is based on piano. But you know, guitar, I stay in what's called cowboy corner, which is right down by the neck and the, you know, a lot of the basic chords down there. But I do love it. And I do think that if your listeners are like thinking, should I play an instrument?

Hopefully they don't talk like that. But Kermit, you should. Yeah. That's a whole nother one. We'll talk about that later. But yeah, you should definitely learn to play an instrument because one of the best things that I've ever done, and I had to learn it in the boys choir, I had to learn it all through my life, was to learn how to read music, to learn how to sight sing music, and to know musical theory. It is vital, especially in how fast the theatrical world moves. You have three weeks on Broadway to learn a show before they put you in front of an audience. And God help you if you don't have some musical theoretical knowledge, because it would be a hard road, much harder road to hoe.

[15:52] Alan Seales: Huh, right. Road to hoe. And then, so in college then, where did you go to school?

[15:56] Justin Guarini: I went to University of the Arts in Philadelphia. And then I went to the School for Film and Television here in New York.

[16:05] Alan Seales: Right. And...

[16:07] Justin Guarini: What used to be called the School for Film and Television.

[16:09] Alan Seales: And you were in an a cappella group. Was that in New York?

[16:10] Justin Guarini: Yeah, it was in high school.

[16:11] Alan Seales: Oh, it was in high school, actually?

[16:11] Justin Guarini: Yeah, yeah. The Midnight Voice. You're Wikipedia. You're like, you're deep into Wikipedia.

[16:14] Alan Seales: Oh, I was in it. I'm in it.

[16:15] Justin Guarini: Deep into Wikipedia. Yeah, so that was called the Midnight Voices. And that was my real first entree into the a cappella world. And that came back to serve me so much doing a show like In Transit, which was Broadway's first truly a cappella musical. And so, yeah, what that was born from is like, you know, the Ben's Ensemble in high school. And then a couple of people, I was like a sophomore or something like that. And a couple of the seniors had this tradition where the night before graduation, a bunch of the guys from the Men's Ensemble would go out and at midnight, serenade girls that they knew, girls that they liked, their girlfriends, you know, typical throw the rocks at the window, sing really gorgeous songs to cute girls.

And so that was what I ended up being falling into that and being like, yeah, sure, I'll help you guys do that. And it ended up that my best friend said, hey, why don't we just make something out of this? Why don't we make a record? And it just ended up that we knew the right people. And I think we recorded it to DAT, digital audio tape. Look that up, kids. Look up DAT. And we ended up recording it to DAT. And it was just one of these really crazy experiences where we took all this beautiful music that we'd learned in high school in our choir program and put it down on record. And then we toured around a little bit. We ended up going to competitions. And it was just so, so much fun. I got to choreograph a number for us. So many really cool experiences came out of that.

[17:54] Alan Seales: All still in high school?

[17:55] Justin Guarini: All still in high school, yeah.

[17:56] Alan Seales: Wow.

[17:56] Justin Guarini: I mean, that was hard. Now, it's like we're sitting here with your laptop. And on most laptops, especially Mac laptops, you can make a record very easily. I mean, you don't even have to burn it to disk anymore, right? They don't even have disk drives.

[18:11] Alan Seales: Yeah, I know. Mine doesn't have one either. It's like crazy. So that was a fun challenge. We recorded that with microphones in a church basement. I mean, it's like, oh my god, are we in Footloose? I mean, I felt like it was a really awesome experience.

[18:26] Alan Seales: Oh, that's great. Okay. So then fast forward, you're in New York for college.

[18:30] Justin Guarini: Right.

[18:31] Alan Seales: And then you graduate, and then you're heading for Broadway. Is that your trajectory?

[18:37] Justin Guarini: I didn't graduate.

[18:37] Alan Seales: Oh, you didn't graduate?

[18:38] Justin Guarini: No, no, no. I was a terrible student.

[18:40] Alan Seales: Really?

[18:41] Justin Guarini: Horrible student. I had talent coming into college. And I think sort of the other side of growing up the way I did around the entertainment industry, around a lot of famous people, around a lot of extremely talented people, having a really good reputation in my town, and kind of being a big fish in a small pond. Going into college, I thought, well, what could college do for me? What does college do for me? And believe me, if your listeners are out there, and they're in college, and they're kind of like, take it from me. Look, I made it out. I've had a successful career, but I could have been so much further ahead and so much more prepared had I really said, okay, what can I do with the resources I have in this program to be the best that I can be?

And had I done that, I don't think it would have been as much of a challenge at certain points. I think that, especially now in a world where you can, like we said with the laptop, you can just plug in a little keyboard, and you can play something and sing on a mic that is just the quality that we're talking on. And you can literally put that out to the world and sell it and or do whatever you want with it. And so that would have been much easier for me to do. But I got on this program. And so I, quote unquote, graduate after my three years of studying musical theater, vocal performance, and then film and television acting. And there was a show that came along called The Lion King. Have you ever heard of it?

Yeah. Once or twice. Went right on and then right off Broadway. And so I auditioned for that. And the audition was great. And Jay Bender, I think, was casting, still is casting that. And there was another very famous casting director in New York City who still is doing their thing. And I'll never forget that moment when I auditioned for the first time for them. Because I had this thing where I closed my eyes, I put my head down, and I really got into the moment. And I did the most actor-y actor thing in the world, right? Short of putting my fist up to my head and really getting into it. And I'll never forget, I take this breath, ready to let out the sounds of choirs of angels. And the casting director does this purposefully.

And it was like that moment that you see in the movies where somebody walks into the saloon and it's like, and everyone looks at you. It was that glass breaking moment. And I'll never forget that because she taught me such a good lesson to never, ever, ever do that. To just come in and deliver and be authentic. Not that I wasn't being authentic, but I thought that was the way to get into it right now. To just come in and deliver and be authentic. And then years later, I would be sitting in my car ready to go to Hollywood for this show called American Idol, which nobody had ever heard of. And I get this phone call from Binder's office saying, hey, I mean, this is like four years later.

[22:01] Alan Seales: Oh, it was that long?

[22:02] Justin Guarini: Three, four years later. Yes.

[22:03] Alan Seales: Wow.

[22:04] Justin Guarini: Lion King was like, I came up to New York, I did masterclasses, I did all the things other than sign the contract, basically. And they're like, we would love it. And so every couple of months, every six months or so, I get this, hey, are you still around? How's it going? We don't have a place for you yet, but we really want you to do that. And I would audition and never quite get it. And it wasn't until I actually booked American Idol that they called me and said, hey, we want you to be in the Lion King on Broadway. We finally have this great role and it's a chorus role. It would have been perfect for me because I'm 22 at the time. And I said, well, there's this show. I'm going out to LA. I might get cut. Can I call you back in a week? So literally Broadway called and I was like, could you hold seven days? Could you just wait?

[22:47] Alan Seales: So you turned down your Broadway debut?

[22:49] Justin Guarini: I did.

[22:50] Alan Seales: For American Idol.

[22:51] Justin Guarini: Broadway called and I said no. But I had this instinct, this feeling, and I was doing really well in the first few rounds of the show. And I literally remember walking down the aisle in the Pasadena Civic Center where we filmed Hollywood Week and where they may still film it now. And I just started to cry. And it was the weirdest thing because, I mean, it's 22 years old, first time out to LA, all these new, amazing experiences, not a person who cried easily at the time. And yet I just bust out crying because that stage was the stage where, for better or worse, Michael Jackson did the moonwalk for the first time during the Motown 50th. That stage was where so many people that I grew up knowing grew up really wanting to emulate and just loving and being shaped by had performed.

And so I just followed my gut. And I said, you know what? Thank you so very much for this opportunity. I've always wanted to be on Broadway. But there's this, I just, I gotta follow my heart on the show. And it ended up working out really well because almost 10 years later, I was in the opening night party for Women on the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown, my very first Broadway show. And I was in the hotel, in Times Square, in one of the conference rooms, I had sat and waited to audition for American Idol. And it was like the perfect 360 moment.

[24:26] Alan Seales: Wow. Well, tell me about the Idol audition. How did you get out to LA? How did you audition for Idol?

[24:32] Justin Guarini: Oh, no, it was here. Yeah. I mean, you auditioned here. Yeah. And it was just a cattle call? Literally a cattle call. It was the coldest summer day in New York. Just like today, it was like, we've had this heat wave. And then today's just kind of a little like, right, it's cold. And

[24:50] Justin Guarini: I was standing in line reading the first Harry Potter, which tells you how long ago it was. I was like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to be doing this. It's freezing cold. But I stood there for like eight hours outside, standing on the... I mean, you had to get there super early, right? Do you remember what the casting call said? Because nobody knew what Idol was at this time.

[25:09] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[25:10] Justin Guarini: I don't remember what it said, but I remember that my mom was upstairs doing something that she hates to do and never does, ironing. And she saw on the TV that there was this show that... I mean, literally, Fox must have spent like five bucks on promo for this thing, because I went to the website after she told me to go to it, and links were broken. Things didn't work. And this was like, social media didn't exist. I mean, the web was kind of like, what? People didn't quite know what it was or how to operate it, or nearly as much as they do today, anyway. And so, I don't remember what the heck it said, but I just said, I'll give it a shot. Why not? And so, I end up standing... I fill out the forms that sign my life away, and I end up standing in line for eight hours.

And that was just to get into the Chorus Line-esque sort of audition, where we wait in a huge holding room, and then we go downstairs, and somebody interviews us. And we're all sitting in the room together. Literally, it's like this rectangular room with two chairs in the middle of it, and everyone's sitting around you while some producer is interviewing you in the middle. And then you go step in the room, and it's four or five kids across, and you literally step forward, sing a verse and a chorus, and you step back.

[26:32] Alan Seales: Yeah. Yeah. Cattle call. Wow. And then, okay. So, that was '02, you said?

[26:35] Justin Guarini: Yes. '02. Wow. Okay. So, you go to LA, and as it started to ramp up, obviously, you felt something. You felt that it had momentum, because you turned down your Broadway debut for it.

[26:42] Alan Seales: Hello.

[26:43] Justin Guarini: Yeah. I mean, crazy. Right. So, at what point was it when it started to go live? I guess... Okay. So, back up. How long between when they're airing the taped episodes, and then they catch up to the live stuff?

[26:58] Justin Guarini: Yeah. What we did was we taped all this stuff, and then we went back home, and they're like, if you talk about this, we're going to kill you. I mean, not really, but that was the thing. They're like, you signed away your life. Do not tell anybody about what you've done. And so, I would say a couple months.

[27:12] Alan Seales: Really? That long?

[27:13] Justin Guarini: Yeah. They taped it, and then they just started airing all the stuff maybe a couple months later, and then they revealed the top 30 or whatever it was. And what was really interesting about that season was they were still trying to figure everything out. So, once they revealed who the top 30 was, they flew us out, and all of us were in this one hotel. And instead of flying us out here and trying to mess with schedules, they flew us all out. So, I was in the last group of 10 to go. So, they did three weeks, 10 contestants a week and whittled that down to whatever the top 10. And so, I was in the last group to go. So, I had two weeks in LA, 22, fully put up in a hotel. I think they even gave us per diem, and we're just waltzing around LA.

It was the craziest thing because I'd never been to California before. And the first time was with Pasadena. And here I am, this 22-year-old kid with all these other... It was like the cast party that never ended, right? It felt like... And we're right near the Beverly Center, if you've ever been to LA. And they're giving us money. They're giving us this amazing hotel and all these rooms. And we're all together. And we're going over to CBS television. It was the most surreal experience. And then you get to be on live television.

[28:43] Alan Seales: Wow. What was that like? Is that when you figured out that the show was really going to be something?

[28:49] Justin Guarini: No, we didn't know. The show did... I mean, I don't know the numbers, but the show did well because we were like, oh, interesting. What's this? But it really didn't hit me until it was the top 10. We were living up in a house on Mulholland Drive, which is a beautiful mansion up there with a huge pool. And it wasn't until after the first live episode, the top 10, that first episode where we got to see it on TV. And we saw it back. And it was always so funny because if we thought we sounded good in the studio, the sound sucked on TV. If we thought, oh man, I'm going to get voted off. That sounded so terrible. It ended up sounding good on TV because we would watch it afterwards because it would air East Coast Time live.

And then it would be taped for the West Coast. And so we always got to check it out. And it wasn't until I saw that and really saw people's reactions on the news and how they framed everything where I was like, oh my god, this is something. And then it just was like being on a moon rocket from there.

[29:54] Alan Seales: Wow. And you made it down, obviously, to the final two. Came in second to Kelly Clarkson. Are you still close with Kelly? Do you talk to her?

[30:01] Justin Guarini: Close in terms of we're in completely different universes. But yeah, we're friends. We've been friends for a really long time. And I think the last time I saw her was at some Disney event, I think, the opening of the American Idol experience there.

[30:15] Alan Seales: That's crazy. We interviewed Lauren Lott on this podcast a while back. She was on season 14 of Idol. And that was even years ago. But she was saying that the behind the scenes stuff, it's just intense. And they have a counselor on site to deal with aggression management.

[30:27] Justin Guarini: As they should. Because think about it. You're plucking people from obscurity. I was lucky that I had at least... I was like the ombudsman. Whenever there was any sort of media or somebody asked, all 10 of us are sitting there on the couch and someone's like, well, what do you think of this? All the heads would turn my way. And I was the guy who was tasked with giving the responses to uncomfortable questions because I knew how to get out of things. And so yeah, having counselors and stuff like that, of course, because it is so... I did it before the advent of social media, as we know it. It was just like crappy MSN message boards. I'm serious. It was nothing compared to what it is now. And you got to think, okay, not only is it hard enough for artists to just put themselves out there, but you're doing it in a way where people have more access to you.

And worse, I think, you have more access to them and to their ideas and their thoughts and their feelings about stuff. And you go on now and it's like, you get on the show and boom, you have 300,000 followers, right? And they're saying all kinds of stuff, good, bad, and indifferent and everything in between. And so yes, part of what they do now is they make sure that people are of sound mind and body to be able to experience this because it is super intense. You have got to not only quickly learn a song and perform it in front of millions of people, but you have also got to deal with the rigors of interviews. You got to deal with the rigors of just filming commercials and doing... I mean, it is a nonstop process. You probably get a few hours of sleep each night.

[32:22] Alan Seales: That sounds horrible.

[32:24] Justin Guarini: And then you got to sing on top of that, right? And audition every single week for America.

[32:30] Alan Seales: Right. So you come out of this at... You're still 22, right?

[32:35] Justin Guarini: No, 22. Yeah, I turned 23 on tour, yeah.

[32:37] Alan Seales: 22, 23. And you're basically... You are a millionaire at this point, yeah? The money comes in from the touring and is it actually... I heard someone tell me once that it's actually better not to win because then you don't have to sign to the idol's label.

[32:47] Justin Guarini: It just depends. No, I don't know about that. Maybe now that might be the case, but I think with my season, I think everything happened the way it was supposed to happen for sure. But I know that if... And I can't say this for certain, but if I were them, when you have your first American Idol, you got to make that work, right? When you win, that person has to go to the top. And when you have someone as talented and as lovely as Kelly Clarkson, that's easy to do, but it's still... You still got to make sure that you prove the model works, right? And so, yeah, for me, I think it was better that I didn't win because I was not prepared for the business aspect, the business side of the record industry, and it is killer.

And Kelly certainly was, without a doubt. She knew how to deservedly get her way when she needed it, and she knew how to pick and choose her battles. And she knew that from a very young age. Me, I was just like, hey, I'm going to sing and be kind to people and they're going to take care of me, right? And that would have been a recipe for most likely literally death for me had I won.

[34:14] Alan Seales: Wow. Well, yeah, I guess then it's much better that you did or did not win, I guess, got second place. So after that, though, they continued. And so you had a film with Kelly, from Justin to Kelly, that was not so well received by critics.

[34:30] Justin Guarini: Not by the critics, but I'm telling you, people come up to me. Matter of fact, I was just in Times Square, nodding your head. People come up to me, I was just in Times Square and like, are you the guy from Justin and Kelly? Really? Like, crazy. Someone came up to me just today when I was in Times Square, just taking some photos for social media. And someone came up and talked. I mean, that's one out of 100,000 people, but you can't buy that kind of impact. And even though that movie went in and out of theaters very quickly, it still has an impact on people. And they're like, yeah, I've got the VHS at home, which kind of makes me want to barf a little. Better than Laserdisc at home, I suppose.

But yeah, it just was one of those really, again, a really wonderful experience that was not received well by critics, but had that impact. And that was really that first season. We just had such an impact, and you can't buy that. And I'm still able to work and still able to leverage all of that impact so many years later, almost 20 years later now.

[35:35] Alan Seales: Right. So yeah, you have that. And then RCA actually signed you.

[35:38] Justin Guarini: They did, yeah.

[35:39] Alan Seales: So RCA signed you, and you put out a self-titled album, which, I mean, I'm kind of getting at...

[35:47] Justin Guarini: How crappy, how up and down.

[35:49] Alan Seales: Yes, exactly. As soon as the lights went off on American Idol, that was when everything started going downhill for me.

[35:55] Justin Guarini: Really. I mean, the film tanked, my album tanked. There was bad press I'd gotten at the time. There were so many things that just went completely wrong after things going so wonderfully right. And unlike today, it's like the beautiful thing about social media is that we can control our own narrative. And it allows us to put out the pictures, the stories, the whatever that allows us to define ourselves. Whereas then, now, it was really challenging. And when you have a couple of commercial, quote unquote, failures, that really begins to define you in the eyes of the media. And then you put that up against the skyrocketing success of what Kelly had. And it just was like, oh, man. It got to the point where I was just like, I just want to sing, and I'm nice to people. And why is this happening? Poor me victimizing sort of thing. And I just said, okay, I had enough of that. And I literally just stopped.

[37:15] Justin Guarini: Beverly Hills in a mansion, which I did not own. I was staying at a friend's house. And I was watching SNL, and Tina Fey, back when she was on the Weekend Update, all of a sudden my face comes up next to her head and whatever that, it's on a deco, whatever that picture is that comes up next to the newscasters. And she said, news today, Justin Guarini was dropped from his label at RCA. And that was the way I found out. No kidding. That I was dropped from my record label. Wow. Crazy, right? I mean, and so it just goes to show you that I had money. I had fame. I had all the trappings of wealth. I was in this beautiful compound in Bel Air. And yet, I wasn't happy. I was obviously not in communication with my record label.

They didn't really bother to tell me that they dropped me. And I felt like a failure. And I was just at this crossroads in my life where I was like, okay, you know what? I need to stop this. And so the record label dropped me. And because of the way the contracts worked, the management company, the contract terminated with them. They wanted to continue on with me, but I was like, F this, I'm out. And I literally left the country for a week. I went to New Zealand by myself and jumped out of an airplane and bungee jumped and all this. And so just so I could feel alive. Yeah. And it's so crazy because we're such a fame-obsessed culture. And yet, I had everything everyone thinks they want. And it made me feel like nothing. I felt nothing.

[39:02] Alan Seales: Well, is it because everyone wants a piece of that? I feel like if I was in that position, I wouldn't know who to trust.

[39:05] Justin Guarini: Sure. Yeah. I mean, least of all yourself.

[39:07] Alan Seales: Really?

[39:07] Justin Guarini: That's the challenging thing. It's that feeling when you can't even trust yourself that is the worst side of fame. And I was in a place where it's just like, everything and anything that comes out of my mouth seems to be the wrong thing. And everything that I try and do ends up blowing up in my face. And so I just want to do nothing. I don't want to be famous anymore. I don't want to be in LA anymore. I don't want to be in this country anymore. I just want to be nobody for once. And that was a year later. I mean, maybe even less than a year after the lights went down. And I mean, I went on a national tour and I'd done a film and done all this other stuff and been on Oprah and all the things that you want, you think you want. And I had to learn the hard way that that is not what brings success. That is not what brings you fulfillment.

[40:09] Alan Seales: Business and fulfillment. Yeah.

[40:11] Justin Guarini: Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. You hear that a lot. And we see stories. And now, like you were saying, now with the advent of social media, that I love when people that you look up to, your heroes, talk about struggle and are just transparent and honest about their own mental health issues or whatnot.

[40:32] Justin Guarini: Well, that's it. I mean, that's amazing. I come from the generation of entertainers who really heralded enigma and not wanting to be accessible to the fans, right? Because then the fans are like, oh, I wonder what they're like. And oh, those things like stars are just like us. You know, pushing the cart in the mall or wherever they are, like grocery shopping. It's like, oh, my goodness, they are just like us. Whereas now it's the opposite. Look at Busy Phillips, right? I mean, Busy Phillips had this really great career when she was young and then was just in the wasteland of not working for a long time. And then she gets on Instagram, she gets on social media, and she just lives her life in front of everyone.

Good, bad, indifferent, crying, all kinds of things. And she led us into a life and it was so impactful that they gave her a TV show. I just saw she's in Olay ads now and everything, like skincare ads. It's just amazing how, like you said, we now, myself included, I feel so much more willing to invest my time, my money, my everything in someone who is real and who's vulnerable as opposed to that untouchable star.

[41:48] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah. I really, I admire that. I actually, one of the things that I love, Caitlin Kinnunen from The Prom we had on this podcast too. We talked about a video she posted of herself crying into her cell phone when she found out she got the Tony nomination. And she's like, yeah, I use Instagram to document my own life so I don't forget about my life later.

[42:12] Justin Guarini: Yes, absolutely. My kids, I do the same thing. And it's like, they're so lucky because their entire lives are going to be documented.

[42:25] Alan Seales: Without your phone.

[42:25] Justin Guarini: Yeah, exactly. Fortunately, my parents took a lot of video, but for most people my age and above, she's like, you got some of those red-toned photos, you know what I mean? If you're lucky, right? And then maybe a little bit of that shoulder-mounted VHS tape stuff. But now it's just like, you document everything and I think that's brilliant.

[42:48] Alan Seales: Yeah, and it's so easy because you carry it in your pocket. Anyway, so podcasting. Yeah. I want to get into that. So your podcast, Audition Secrets podcast, tell me about that and why did you start it? Why come out of all of this sort of transformation, going from your caterpillar to your butterfly now? You're in butterfly stage. Why not go back to Broadway? Why do what you're doing?

[43:10] Justin Guarini: You know what? I will go back to Broadway. It wasn't like I stopped. I took the opportunity that Lil Sweet has literally afforded me. Oh man, Lil Sweet, we didn't even talk about that. Yeah, we'll get there. We'll get there, right? And so being in a national campaign like that and doing it for five years now has really given me the chance to say, okay, I don't care what level of success you're at, unless you're in the stratosphere, it's a feast and famine business, right? And so I've been in six Broadway shows, but it's still like, okay, when's the next show? When's that next paycheck? When's that next thing? And so when you are fortunate enough to get something like a national commercial campaign on television, it just gave me a little bit of breathing room.

So I said, okay, how can I do something and be a part of something that's a little bit more legacy oriented, right? Because I just turned 40, not all that long ago. And while I still have plenty of time left in my career, I'm just looking at that hill coming up, right? And wondering what I'm going to crest at. And so two things, that gave me the ability to step back and say, okay, I want to do work that I want to do, as opposed to sometimes the work that we have to do or feel like we have to do. And then on the other hand, I had this audition for a really huge Broadway show where I had to learn 20 songs and very complicated music. And I went in over a period of about three months and auditioned for, I love them so very much, great group of people.

And they basically made me do everything other than put on a tutu and jump through a flaming hoop. I mean, they put me through my paces. I love this show. I will always love the show. I will always love the people who are involved with this show. And I would still want to do this show. And yet through that period, I got, go this way and then do that. And sometimes I would go in one audition and they would tell me to do the exact opposite that they did, which happens, right? Just to see, put you through your paces. You never know why they make the choices that they do on the other side of the table, but you go with it. We're actors. It's our job to deliver what is requested of us. And so at the end of this three, three and a half month period, I wait to hear back and I don't hear anything.

More weeks go by and I'm bugging my agent who bugs the casting director, who bugs the creative team. And eventually from upon high, the answer is no. Rejection is just part of our business, right? That's what we face as actors all the time. But the fact that they made me come in over a period of months, asked me to do all this stuff, learn all these songs, which I said, hey, look, I'll learn all these songs. I don't mind. So it's not like it was like I'm a victim or anything. And yet at the end of all of that, didn't give me something to take away that I could be better, that I could learn from. It just was a, oh, no. Made me feel so disrespected and so just kind of like just another herd, just another cow in the herd, right?

The reason why they call it a cattle call. And so I stepped back and I was like, do I even want to be doing this anymore? That was so wrong and so rude. I don't ever want to feel this way again. And as I started asking myself those questions, I asked better questions. And another one was, well, wait, if I, at my level, and I'm certainly not the top of the charts, but at my level, I can experience that kind of disrespect of my time in my artistry. Imagine what people who are going to those cattle calls sometimes two, three times a day are experiencing. And it's like, I know I have nerves before I go into auditions. I have all these things that happen to me. How can I not only help myself and be better and not feel so gypped after an experience like I experienced with the show, but how can I also help other people?

And from that, other performers, and how can I give back to my community? And from that came Audition Secrets, the book. And so I started talking to all my shiny friends, the famous people that I had worked with in the theater legends, and casting directors, and coaches, and my mentors, and other hardworking actors. And I started talking to them about how they auditioned, the things that they went through, how they overcame all kinds of scenarios. And I started mixing that with my own experience. And out of that came the book, Audition Secrets. And out of that came the podcast. And out of that came this coaching program and mentoring program that I'm going to be releasing in a few weeks. And so many wonderful responses I've gotten to that and so much.

I really love teaching. I really, really, really love teaching. I love performing. Nothing will ever beat performing on the stage, and I'm continuing to do that. I love doing that. But I love being able to see that light bulb go on over a student's head. Like, oh, I get it. And to save them from the pitfalls that I fell into and that so many actors fall into on a daily basis, because we are treated like just another number. We are treated like cattle at various levels of success. And if there's anything that I can do to help save someone from feeling that way or from casting themselves as that way in the audition room, then I'm going to do that. I hear stories all the time about people who go in for roles they feel they are so wrong for, and they end up getting this great career shift out of it.

[49:17] Alan Seales: Yeah. I know one of those.

[49:22] Justin Guarini: Yeah. Yeah. Lil Sweet is one of those. Yeah. Tell me about Lil Sweet. Dr. Pepper, how did this happen? How did this happen? I was just coming off of a nine-month stint on Broadway in Wicked as Piero. And that's a challenging show.

[49:40] Justin Guarini: It's really much more dance-heavy than any other show that I've been in. And while Fiero doesn't work nearly as hard as the ladies work, let me give it up for the witches, because oh my goodness, not only do they have to sing all these crazy numbers, but they have to do it with 40-pound dresses on, literally 40-pound dresses. And so it was challenging. I was in a lot of pain because it's just like when you swing out on the rope, when you're dancing on the rake, when you're doing all this stuff. And I just was worn out. And so I get this call that says, hey, there's this commercial thing you should go in for. And I was like, look, hey, guys, to my team. I was like, hey, I'm just going to relax.

I'm going to take some time off. I don't want to go do it. And they continue to badger me. Like, just go in for it. I was like, no, I don't want to go in for it. Please just go in for it. Do it for me. I was like, fine, I'll do it. Fine. I'll go in. And so I come to New York, and I'm in the casting office. And the description, the breakdown had all these 80s rock star names in it, and this really funny, quirky description. And I was like, this has nothing to do with me or anything that I can do or who I am or anything I've ever done before in my life, let alone in front of anyone of merit. And so I go into the room, and the greatest thing that I think I could have ever done was not care. Now, I want to deliver a good performance, not care like walking to be an a-hole, but not care in the sense of, I don't care whether I get this or not.

I'm just going to go in, I'm going to have some fun, and I'm going to be able to satiate my agent's thirst and lust for me wanting to be in this damn audition. And so I go in, and it's just a casting assistant and a camera and a couple of LCD screens turned vertically so I can read the copy. And in parentheses, it says, Lil Sweet slides in on his knees. And I was like, all right. Hey, am I out of frame? Am I out of frame? I asked him, am I out of frame? Yeah, you're out of frame. And then I literally slid in on my knees, and I was like, having a good time. All the things that you hear sung in the commercial, I was making that up. I was making it because I didn't care. I was doing things that I do to entertain my children and my wife when she's mad at me in the living room of my own home.

And it was one of those things where literally they called me that night, and they're like, please come in tomorrow. And I did it for all the creatives. And they called me that night and said, can you get on a plane tomorrow and go to LA? And I said, okay. Wow. And that was it. And then here we are five years later, and it has been one of the greatest jobs I've ever had in my life.

[52:38] Alan Seales: I was binging them on YouTube last night.

[52:41] Justin Guarini: I know, right? It's so ridiculous.

[52:44] Alan Seales: They're so funny. All of you just hitting on the ladies.

[52:47] Justin Guarini: Yeah. And the thing is that I don't really have to act because anybody who knows me knows that I'm really animated. You can't tell. And I just love to be a goofball. And it's just like, I just get to step into Lil Sweet. And when they put the rug on my head, and I grow out a beard, which it literally takes me... You look like you could grow a beard. You could just sneeze in half a day, and all of a sudden it'll come out again. But for me, it takes me three, four weeks to get... I'm not even kidding, to get any sort of not patchy, disgusting...

[53:21] Alan Seales: Is that a real beard?

[53:23] Justin Guarini: No, it's a real thing. But literally, they have to tell me at least a month in advance before we start shooting. It's like, okay, I grow my beard. And then it goes through that horrible, patchy, vagrant phase.

[53:36] Alan Seales: That's so funny.

[53:37] Justin Guarini: That's so funny. You have a lot of humanitarian work.

[53:41] Alan Seales: Sure.

[53:42] Justin Guarini: So I want to touch on real quick, because we're running short on time here.

[53:45] Alan Seales: It's making me look good.

[53:45] Justin Guarini: But yeah, humanitarian. You're an advocate for musical educational funding.

[53:50] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[53:50] Justin Guarini: You've done lobbying. Tell me about that.

[53:52] Justin Guarini: Yeah, I went to Capitol Hill. I went to Capitol Hill to get into that. How does one get into lobbying? How does one decide? There's a few New York Times articles about that. But basically, what I did was I worked with this wonderful group of folks in LA who were really fighting to keep music in our schools. And because music was such a big part of my life in school and completely shaped the whole rest of my life, my career and everything, it's so important to fight for musical theater programs, to fight for music programs in our schools, because they're being cut. And it's not just from a self-expression standpoint, but from mathematics, from English, from social studies, from just being able to work, play well with others.

There's such important facets of a child's life. And even if you don't go into theater, just being a part of that can have a huge and lasting impact, if nothing else, for an appreciation of theater. And so that's why I went to Capitol Hill and I sat down with our lawmakers and I was like, please, keep music and arts funding going in our school, because my life would be completely different had that not been there for me.

[55:11] Alan Seales: Yeah, I love that. So we have just soft-launched Broadway Podcast Network. broadwaypodcastnetwork.com, for those of you who want to listen, or bpn.fm, it's short right now. The Theatre Podcast is a proud partner, a proud member of BPN, and now Audition Secrets.

[55:30] Justin Guarini: Yes.

[55:31] Alan Seales: Is also part of BPN.

[55:32] Justin Guarini: I'm so excited to be a part of the family. Yeah. I was looking for exactly what the Broadway Podcast Network is, which is not only a place to find amazing theater podcasts, because that was a big challenge for me. When I was like, hmm, I want to do a podcast, as one does, right? I was like, let me listen to some other theater podcasts. I'm like, I had to search around everywhere and some, I couldn't, it was so hard to find. But now with the Broadway Podcast Network, you can get it all in one place and I'm so excited to be a part of the family.

[56:06] Alan Seales: That's wonderful. And you already had a couple episodes out, like with Patti LuPone and Laura Osnes.

[56:09] Justin Guarini: Yeah, you've heard of them, right? Yeah, not bad. Small potatoes.

[56:13] Alan Seales: Gosh, I listened to the one with Patti already. It's such good information. And people who want Broadway just binge this stuff. I love it. I love the Broadway tribe. It's so good.

[56:26] Justin Guarini: Yeah, it's great. And there's so many great, I mean, like with Broadwayasted and The Ensemblist and Ilia Levine and so many really great shows. And I'm just really, really, really glad to be a part of it. And that at the end of the day, it's about service for me, right? I want to make sure that I get this information out to people so that when they get the material in their inbox, they get their audition, they know exactly how to set themselves up for success throughout the entire process, from the moment you get it to the moment you leave the audition room.

[56:56] Alan Seales: Yeah, that is beautiful. Okay. So, welcome to the family.

[57:01] Justin Guarini: Thanks. Thanks.

[57:02] Alan Seales: All right. So, we've got the three standard closing questions that we always use to end every episode on the Theatre Podcast here. Very simply, number one, what motivates you?

[57:12] Justin Guarini: Oh, man. Passion was the first word that came to my mind, but that just sounds so corny. But I'll go with it. I mean, it really is passion. Being passionate about what it is that I do, like having a passion for, when we talk about in this context, theatre, and it excites me. I have a passion for live performance, and that's it. Passion, passion, passion. And when it comes to auditions, when you have that passion for the work, it shows when you step into the room.

[57:44] Alan Seales: Yep. Okay. So, second question, what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people now starting out down a similar path?

[57:51] Justin Guarini: Know your story. I mean, it's like, we always hear that, know thyself. And that really, truly is timeless advice. But where I came from, whether you want to start with the Boys Choir or from American Idol or from Broadway or wherever, knowing your story is so important. Being able to walk into a casting room and have an idea of who you are and what it is that you have to deliver. For example, people, I was talking to them today during the auditions for American Idol, and I was like, if I was a record label executive, and I handed you a contract, and I said, you can make any record you want, you can wear any clothes you want, who do you want to be singing to, what's your demographic, and all that other stuff, I think you should have those answers ready to go before.

Now they'll change, right? They'll change as you change as an artist. But knowing those things, walking into a room, auditioning for musical theater, even having an idea of who you are, being able to own your own power and own your own story is so vitally important. Because we tend to, when we own our story, when we know about ourselves, instead of playing a character, we allow the character to play through us more. And I mean, I could go talk on forever about that. I won't do that right now. But it is a huge shift when you walk into a room and you own your own power. And part of that is knowing and owning your own story.

[59:33] Alan Seales: Okay. And last question, if you could only see one show for the rest of your life, but you can see it as many times as you want, what would you see?

[59:41] Justin Guarini: Good. If I could only see one show, oh man. The Prom.

[59:48] Alan Seales: The Prom. How did you know?

[59:52] Justin Guarini: Which I want to go see, by the way. I've got some great friends in that show. If I could see one show over and over again as many times, and oh my gosh, I'm like, I'm getting a little weepy just thinking about seeing it over and over again, would be my very favorite show of all time. The one that after I saw it, I was in elementary school, I'll never forget it, Bonnie Bray Elementary in Virginia. And I felt like when I saw that, I could fly. I went outside and I did my version of the choreography, which felt amazing, but probably looked like hell. And that's West Side Story. If I could see West Side Story over and over again, I could. And if I could play any role in West Side Story, it would be Bernardo, believe it or not.

I don't know if I am qualified as a dancer enough to be able to do that. I'm one of those actors that moves, right? But I love, love that show. And it literally, even just talking about it, makes me get a little choked up because it is my musical theater beating heart. I wore out the VHS of West Side Story. It is. There's nothing like it in the world.

[1:01:02] Alan Seales: Singing in the Rain, Music Man, and West Side Story were my three when I was a little boy. Right after Dat, before CDs came out. All right. We can find you online on Twitter and Instagram, just Justin Guarini. No bell in there, justinguarini.com. Of course, you can find the podcast there or also head over to broadwaypodcastnetwork.com to find the podcast there. To find more of this, you can go to thetheaterpodcast.com. You can find me online, theater underscore podcast on Instagram and Twitter on Facebook slash official theater podcast. Of course, share with your friends, leave a rating. They all help. This is produced by Jillian Hockman, edited by Matthew Hendershot. Thank you to Jukebox the Ghost for the intro and outro music you're hearing right now. And Justin, oh my God, this was so much fun. Awesome. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

[1:01:55] Justin Guarini: Thank you so very much.