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[0:00] Alan Seales: Welcome to The Theatre Podcast, intimate personal conversations with theatre's biggest names and now part of the Broadway Podcast Network. This episode you're about to listen to is the first of many episodes that will kick off a Moulin Rouge takeover for the month of February, love month, so what better show to have gracing your eardrums than, of course, all the cast and a few creatives from Moulin Rouge. So, Tam Mutu plays the Duke, the bad guy. I really liked my conversation with him. We got into, basically, how he made the Duke real. Nothing against Richard Roxburgh, who played the role in the film, but the way that Tam plays it is very real, very sinister, whereas in the movie it was a little bit comical, a little bit like a caricature.

So the way that he plays the Duke in the musical, there is a moment when you're like, hey, is Satine actually going to pick the Duke over Christian? This is really weird, but along with all of that, we get into the horror that was The Scandal of Rebecca. He was originally cast in Rebecca back in 2011. That was supposed to be his Broadway debut and you can Google the hell out of that because that's a story of scandal and the FBI got involved and blah, blah, blah. We talked about that. He comes from the West End. Believe it or not, he actually is British. He was saying that at the stage door people were saying that they were surprised he was actually British because he does the British accent in the show and he was like, yeah, of course.

But he was a jock growing up, decided just to get into acting where he just seemed to find his place. He found his tribe and the story is very great. It's very natural. So before we get into it, as always, please visit me online at thetheaterpodcast.com. You can subscribe at theater underscore podcast on Instagram and Twitter. Please leave a rating, leave a review, tell your friend. And now everyone enjoy this episode with Tam Mutu.

[2:12] Alan Seales: You may recognize my guest today from his TV appearances on The Walking Dead, Blue Bloods and Sherlock or for being on stage in Dr. Zhivago on Broadway and Love Never Dies in London. Now playing the Duke in the smash Broadway hit Moulin Rouge! The Musical. Tam Mutu, welcome to The Theatre Podcast.

[2:28] Tam Mutu: Hello. Thank you very much for having me.

[2:30] Alan Seales: I love that accent.

[2:32] Tam Mutu: Thank you very much. It's fake.

[2:33] Alan Seales: I was going to say, is your Duke accent a real accent?

[2:38] Tam Mutu: I haven't asked that actually. After the show, people are like, oh, you are British. Actually even someone came once and said, well, he's not British. They said that to Danny Burstein after the show. You know, like, no, he is British. No, he's not. I'm British. He's not British. I swear to God, that's the thing.

[2:51] Alan Seales: I thought your accent was so bad.

[2:55] Tam Mutu: So bad. It was, yeah.

[2:56] Alan Seales: Okay. Well, so your name, Tam Mutu. What is the heritage? Where's the origin of the family name?

[3:02] Tam Mutu: So Mutu is a Turkish name. Tam is also quite Turkish name. So it's when my dad was fully Turkish, my mom's Italian Irish. And interesting that you brought this up because I literally did my ancestry recently.

[3:21] Alan Seales: Oh, really?

[3:22] Tam Mutu: Yeah, I did. I just thought, let's have a look and see what's, you know. And you'd think, which is kind of interesting about it, you'd think that because my dad was, obviously, you think it's half and half, you know, you're half your parents. So you think you'd be predominantly Turkish, because, you know, my dad was, you know, fully Turkish, my mom's Italian Irish. But that's apparently not how it works. So my percentages...

[3:44] Alan Seales: Genetics are funny.

[3:45] Tam Mutu: Yeah. I was like, wow, that's kind of fascinating. I don't know why you'd think that, but that's maybe just a logical way of looking at it. But it turned out that my percentage was 60% Italian, and then 20% Irish, Scottish, and then 13% Turkish was after that. And then a few others like them, but had a bit of Persian and other like, sort of Asian sort of side. So yeah, it's kind of random. But yeah, but it's a Turkish name. But yeah, weird, right? So you kind of think, because I remember growing up at school, everyone used to call me improper names, referring to my Turkish background. But like, the irony is actually, you know, I'm more Italian. So it's kind of just different. I was kind of like, oh, okay, that's kind of fun.

[4:32] Alan Seales: I thought Mutu was Japanese.

[4:35] Tam Mutu: There is a lot. I do get a lot of that. I get that. And I also get Kiwi as well. People think there's a sort of Kiwi element to it. But no, it's kind of a Turkish name.

[4:48] Alan Seales: All right. So tell me about where you grew up. You're British, right? So you grew up in the UK somewhere.

[4:52] Tam Mutu: I grew up in a little town called, in a little fishing village called Hastings, what it was back in the day, which is not far from Brighton, which is quite popular with the royals. It's about an hour and a half away from London, southeast coast, right on the water.

[5:09] Alan Seales: Are you upset with all this royal business with them? Like, what is it, Harry and Meghan being like, no, we're just done now?

[5:18] Tam Mutu: I don't know. I just kind of, I try not to get into it, to be honest, because the thing that I would say was, you know, each to their own, I guess. But it's difficult when you've been, I don't know, I don't want to get political now, it's kind of difficult. I find it difficult to sort of, you know, when you've been sort of funded by taxpayers to then go, oh, we just want to do our own thing now. But it's like, well, you've been, I don't know, it's a funny line. We'll steer away from that, because that could be a whole podcast in itself.

[5:46] Alan Seales: Well, yeah, okay. So it's like, all right, I hear you.

[5:50] Tam Mutu: I think it's messy. I think it's a messy situation. I don't think, obviously being here, I'm sort of out of it. And you get both sides, sort of get both sides from my family back home and then people here. So I don't know what I really think. It's, they're still human beings at the end of the day.

[6:06] Alan Seales: Well, they want their privacy.

[6:07] Tam Mutu: Yeah, I get that.

[6:08] Alan Seales: Yeah, I get it too. I mean, when you're like second or third or whatever they are in line, you know, excuse my American ignorance. I don't know when he would be prince, president?

[6:16] Tam Mutu: Princeton?

[6:17] Alan Seales: Princeton King.

[6:18] Tam Mutu: Princeton King, yeah.

[6:20] Alan Seales: He's like, ah, just screw it, you know, whatever. But anyway, back to Broadway, or back to you, rather. What was your childhood like in the UK? Like, did you perform? Were you a singer, dancer?

[6:30] Tam Mutu: No, not at all. I was very much what you guys would call a jock. I played a lot of sports, mainly football, which is your soccer. I got to quite a high level and didn't actually start doing any performing, or proper performing, I'd say, which is until I was about 16, 17, I don't think, around then. And that was kind of like the equivalent of like a summer stock of what we call amateur dramatics, which is, you know, you do a musical and go along and all these people of various ages come along for their time off on the weekends, and then you do a show at a later date. It was kind of random, really. Friends of mine just dragged me along one time to like an open call, because they were looking, I think, back at that time and there, there was a mass shortage of boys to do sort of musicals.

So you'd find a lot of girls playing boy parts. So it was, you know, me being a guy going in there, quite jockey, and I think they were quite surprised. So, and then after that, I did one. And then I did, I think my first show was Half a Sixpence, which probably no one's ever heard of. And then it went on. And I think I did Barnum and My Fair Lady.

[7:47] Alan Seales: But what made you decide to cross over?

[7:50] Tam Mutu: I don't know. It's kind of weird. It's like, people ask me that. I kind of had fun doing it. I mean, sports was my life for a significant amount of time. And then I kind of got a little bit disillusioned with it all. And this was much, I wouldn't say much more fun, but it was fun in a different way. So I kind of found, you know, different people, you know, there were like older people there, girls there, and I was just used to being around boys in shorts. Do you know what I mean? It's kind of, after a while, that can get a bit tiring, I think. And I just found it interesting, and so alien to what I've been used to. My school as well, we had like a sort of choir, which I could, you know, we everyone had to sing hymns in the morning.

So I kind of like did a little bit of singing, I didn't realize I could sing maybe as well as I could have. So that was kind of a another find as well. And then I literally just kept going and going and going. And before I knew it, I was auditioning for drama school. And then I was in drama school. And then I was graduating from drama school to go and do shows in the West End. It was crazy. I always like sort of give the analogy of like, I literally stepped on the train, excuse me, knocking the mic and have never got off. It's literally been one of those, because I'm not one of those people that can say, Oh, I've always wanted to be an actor, you know, a lovely darling. I haven't at all. Never, never, never. So it's kind of wonderful in a sense.

[9:20] Alan Seales: And so your parents, I mean, were they understanding or was, you know, I'm trying to like kind of pick apart maybe a stereotype that I suffered from, which was that I love singing, singing, dancing, dancing. And then all of a sudden, I get to my high school years when I'm impressionable. And then all of a sudden, it's like in a small town in North Carolina, where people may not be as open minded as they are in other places I get made fun of. And my parents didn't help me, really. But like, anyway, like, you see what I'm trying to say? Was it an easy transition just to be like, I'm going from soccer and, you know, sports over to something very different?

[10:05] Tam Mutu: I wouldn't say it was easy because I was still, to start off with, I was still very much playing sports alongside it, which was difficult. And then, obviously, your teammates find out and then the opposition teammates find out and then it's like, you know, because I played for various teams. And sometimes you'd, you know, you'd go on long, obviously long journeys, coach rides and all the rest of it. And there would be a lot of ribbing going on and jokes at my expense. But I just kind of I had friends, other friends. I think what happened was as I got a bit older into my late teens, my pool of friends sort of evolved. And there were more sort of artistic people came into my life. Some of my best friends are actually all brothers, actually, from England and Hastings.

And they kind of like open my eyes a bit into other things. One of them is very much into movies and sort of creative, like that sort of thing. And one of them is an artist. Another one is like a performer. So to be around that sort of group of people, maybe sort of open my eyes a bit more than to just, you know, a sports life. As far as my parents were concerned, I think my dad found it slightly odd. My mom was always been supportive. I think she just enjoyed the show. She's always liked musicals anyway. So it was kind of, I don't know, it's kind of like just, you know, I just did it. And then people sort of grew to accept it, I think.

[11:32] Alan Seales: Well, then when was your West End debut?

[11:59] Tam Mutu: We did Closer Than Ever, I think. There were four of us, and he asked us all to come and audition for Les Mis, just as experience and all the rest of it. None of us thought we'd get in, but ironically, three of us actually got in, and we all left drama school early, which was great, but also has its own, I would generally say, finish your course, but at that time, it was difficult to say no. So that was 2001, I think I went straight into that.

[12:28] Alan Seales: So you were, okay, so 2001, you were in the UK doing West End shows for a while, and then, if I have my timeline right, 2011 was supposed to be your Broadway debut, yeah?

[12:44] Tam Mutu: You made a face. The infamous.

[12:47] Alan Seales: The infamous Rebecca.

[12:48] Tam Mutu: Yes, yes, that was supposed to be. I think I was doing chess in Toronto at the time, and I got a call to say they wanted to audition for Rebecca, me to come in for Rebecca. It's with Michael Blakemore and the team, and I was like, okay, so I flew in, did my thing, you know, and learned all the material and had the audition, and it all went rather well, and then I flew, after I finished chess, I flew back to England, and I think I was literally packing up my flat, my apartment, and that day, then I got a call from my agent that day, literally, I think we'd packed three quarters of my apartment, I'm not kidding. So I was surrounded by boxes, and I got a call from my agent saying, it's being postponed, and, yeah, the rest is kind of like, you know, all on the internet. It was pretty shabby, shambolic, all around, really.

[13:56] Alan Seales: And yeah, you guys...

[13:58] Tam Mutu: We had the marquee up and everything, so it was kind of like...

[14:00] Alan Seales: Yeah, you were strung along for so long, and then at some point, like, you and Sierra Boggess quit, left, I mean, like...

[14:08] Tam Mutu: You were, yeah, because they couldn't, you know, they kept saying, oh, we're gonna get it organized, and it never sort of materialized, but then when we sort of stepped aside, and I went, and I think I ended up, I think I ended up then going back into, ironically, back into Les Mis, actually, as you're there, and then I saw that they'd casted again with other people, I think it was Paige, something, Paige, Claire Paige, is it, I forget her name, and Brian Silverman, and then they went through it all, as well, and I felt so sorry for them, as well, because, you know, obviously, they pulled the plug on them, as well.

[14:41] Alan Seales: Yeah.

[14:42] Tam Mutu: Shocking. I mean, it happens, but I mean, maybe not in that sort of, that drastically, but...

[14:47] Alan Seales: Yeah, what was going through your head at this point? I mean, because you were excited, you think you're gonna make your Broadway debut, and then the rug gets pulled out from under you. Like, were you okay? Because it sounds like you went on, you went back into Les Mis.

[14:59] Tam Mutu: Yeah, it was, I don't know, it was so surreal. It's like, I'm always, I'm always one of those people, you know, people may sometimes think I'm a bit more cynical or a bit more, I don't show mass emotion all the time, especially even when I get jobs, because I kind of sit on the fence of, like, until I'm actually doing it, I don't believe it. It's kind of like when a sports team sign a player, and there's all this mass media furore about it, and then, and I literally say, I don't believe it until he's holding up the shirt or wearing the shirt running around the field.

[15:30] Alan Seales: Right.

[15:32] Tam Mutu: So, and that's my, that's how I kind of am, because people always say, oh, aren't you excited? And like, because you know, people want to, want to sort of feel good and make you feel like, you know, congratulate you and all these things. But I just, I don't know, I'm just a bit more reserved with all that sort of stuff. So, it surprised me kind of thing. But then it didn't surprise me because I know this business is, is pretty brutal at the best of times. So, it taught me a lot. You know, you just kind of go, okay. And I think after that, actually, I probably became more, you know, reserved with things. Because you just have to, you sort of have to protect yourself as well.

[16:09] Alan Seales: So then, so then Dr. Zhivago was your debut in 2015?

[16:12] Tam Mutu: Yes.

[16:13] Alan Seales: Okay. All right. So we get there. Everything's good. 2019, last year, Moulin Rouge! The Musical. My God. Okay. So, I was reading, you almost didn't audition for this show.

[16:24] Tam Mutu: Yeah, that's true. I had, I think I had, I got two auditions at the same time. I think it was Pretty Woman and Moulin Rouge. And obviously, they were both, you know, going to be, you know, you thought going to be mass hits and successful. And I know Jerry, obviously, from working with him on Love Never Dies, Jerry Mitchell is the director of Pretty Woman. And he'd spoken to me about coming in. And I kind of just, just from like, the basis of what the films were, and what I thought they were going to try and do, I thought, well, the Pretty Woman is a better fit for me, because, you know, just character wise. So, I said to my agent, I read the Moulin Rouge, what they'd sent at the time. And it's evolved massively since then.

But at the time, I was like, I don't know about this. I just think it's, it's, I kind of got the feeling they didn't really know what where they wanted the character to go. It was kind of like the movie still, but it wasn't. It was, I didn't think it was, I didn't think it knew what it was yet. And so I just said, I just don't, I'm not feeling that. I don't think I'm going to go in for that. And I think I sent an email actually, so I was too chicken to say, I'm not going in. And then literally, I think literally within minutes, I got a phone call from Kirk. He was like, you're going in.

[17:44] Alan Seales: Is Kirk great?

[17:44] Tam Mutu: Yeah, he was like, you're going in. And there's nothing else to say on the matter. I was like, fine, fine. So I went in and I met the team, and everyone was very lovely. And I think this was originally for The Lab, which was downtown, because we've been doing this since 1964 now, I think, this show.

[18:03] Alan Seales: Since before you were born, you were auditioning?

[18:07] Tam Mutu: It was, yeah, it was for The Lab downtown. And, yeah, the rest is kind of history. It kind of went very well, obviously. And the part evolved into what it is today. And it's, you know, it was a good decision on behalf of my agent, not myself.

[18:25] Alan Seales: Well, the original role from the movie played by Richard Roxburgh, he's kind of a caricature.

[18:33] Tam Mutu: Right.

[18:33] Alan Seales: Like, he's a bad guy. But he's sort of this comical caricature, which I like. The way that you play the character is like, more sinister.

[18:44] Tam Mutu: Right.

[18:45] Alan Seales: Right?

[18:45] Tam Mutu: Yeah, well, that was because I loved Richard's performance as well. And, you know, if it was going to be exactly like the movie, then chances are, I wouldn't have been cast. So because he's more buffoony, and more it's like, you could say it's more caricature, but he does it so well. But you always got the feeling that he would never, ever be like a viable option for Satine. I don't think she would ever choose him in a million years. And the team were very much on board with trying to create this triangle, love triangle between Christian Satine and the Duke to sort of like, so he actually would be something that was a viable option in terms of whether it be even though it's more financial, but like, actually, there was more to him than just money.

Like, you know, he was charming, he was, you know, meant to be good looking, not saying that I am. But you know, all those, you know, all those other things, which people sort of, you know, look for. And Christian sort of swoops off her feet with his like, you know, innocence and in a different way. So there's, you know, there's supposed to be massive, you know, no polar opposites, in a sense between the two characters, but then with Satine in the middle. So when I found out that when we started to evolve the piece, and it became more, you know, he became slightly, what I like about it is I get to play all these different sort of, sort of characteristics of him. So there's still honors the movie to an extent where there's some buffoonerism in it, even if that is a word.

But more so, you know, then I get the flavors of like, you know, fun, you know, charming, like, you know, and then the sinister stuff sort of kicks in in the second half, which is great, because then, you know, the characters, it's, it's more enriching, I think, it's more fun to play.

[20:32] Alan Seales: Well, working with with Alex Timbers, the director, how much, how much of the character evolution, I guess, the final product that what we see on stage now, how much of it was him kind of guiding you or was or you coming to him with like, you know, I don't want to be this comical buffoon, I want to really play him like a real, you know, I'm kind of thinking like Gene Hackman.

[20:55] Tam Mutu: Yeah. The team was so good with that, though. That's right with john, the book writer, and Justin and Alex. Justin's a musical, musical dude, and Alex was the director. And the team were really good, because obviously, from the first lab, I think my song choices, even that, you know, that makes a massive difference between to how the character is seen. So I've gone from like, the potential of singing like George Michael songs, which we did in the lab, like faith and father figure and things like that, which is now evolved into like, Rolling Stones, and I sympathy for the Duke and, and sympathy for the devil, but sympathy for Duke is the song on the show. And what was wonderful about it, Alex would always ask and say, if you have ideas, you know, and, you know, we, it was very much an open sort of book of like, you know, what felt right, where do we think this character was going?

What was um, relevant, what we were, you know, what was going to make the, the arc of the character more interesting. And I think they were very open to all of that. So there were times when, you know, things were cut, which we thought shouldn't be cut. And when things were in there, and I, I think one of the main things I said was the the song choices were were what the things I had a major issue with, because it just didn't fit with what we were trying to do. I think it fit more with like the movie version of him. So when Justin came back and said, Okay, we've this is the new, we're doing you Rolling Stones medley. I was like, Well, hello, what more could you ask for? Really?

[22:25] Alan Seales: Right? Yeah, it was sympathy for the Duke. It's a mashup of three Rolling Stones songs, right? Sympathy for the devil, you can't always get what you want and give me shelter is and then you also get to sing Rihanna's only girl only girl in the world, which is which has always been there, which is but it's always been a good, good. It's a good song choice, because it's it's interesting. So it was interesting to see a girl's song as well. But from that perspective of the darkness of him, and when it starts to become a bit sinister in the second half, and the manipulation of Satine and the club owners and all the rest of it, it's a good, it's a good one to have in there. It's fun as well. It's kind of like that kind of twisted fun.

[23:05] Alan Seales: Which one's your favorite? Do you have a favorite?

[23:11] Tam Mutu: Oh, it varies. Actually, I do still really enjoy singing the Rihanna. So it's fun. But I guess I'd say sympathy for the Duke's probably the fun, fun song, probably.

[23:24] Alan Seales: Do you do you get audience feedback in the middle of the show? Or do you see more at the stage door?

[23:31] Tam Mutu: Mostly, I don't know a bit of both, I guess. But during the show, it happens. We will say when we were in Boston, it was kind of a shock to the system when we started to hear people's reactions to what we were singing, because obviously, they're going to have their own sort of history with each song that we, you know, we sing. And you kind of can hear the shock value of what they're hearing, and what they're experiencing. And I'll be

[23:59] Tam Mutu: We're just trying to tell a story through that song, but to other people in the audience, it's obviously going to have a different sort of relevance to them and part of their lives or whatever, however you want to put it. But it was shocking at first, but as we got used to it, it's kind of, you kind of expect it now, and it's fun to hear. I mean, do you hear people talking to you or at you when you're leaving stage? Oh, I have had that, yeah. I've had the odd hiss, but then the most famous one was when I was in Boston again, and someone, as I was leaving the stage, shouted, "You suck!" I was so taken aback. I remember stopping; it stopped me in my tracks, and I literally looked out and forgot I was on stage for a second.

I'm like, is it me or is it the character or both? And then left with my tail between my legs, but it was kind of funny in the moment. I was so shocked, but it was so loud as well. Yeah, "You suck!" You can't really beat that, I don't think. But I do get the hisses, like, you know, the odd hiss, and I think people think they're watching a pantomime in England.

[25:05] Tam Mutu: With just the high energy, I mean, gosh, the choreography too, and the singing and the range with everything. You walk in, and it's just, you're in this atmosphere. The house looks like so much of what I've never been inside the Moulin Rouge myself, but from what I remember from the movie, you've got the elephant, and you've got the windmill, and you've got, it's just the whole house was transformed. So it's not just like, oh, proscenium, but it's in there. And I get the feeling that some people think it's, or get the perception it's more like a rock concert than a Broadway show.

[25:44] Tam Mutu: Yeah, I think, yeah, I can see why I'd say that because it's so immersive. And even when you go in, you've got some, you know, the pre-show with everybody, you know, in there, and it's surreal and it's sexy and cool, and the colors are so vibrant and warm. I can see why people sort of lose their minds because I think, I personally think that set's the most beautiful set I've ever seen. But it's a rock concert, yeah, you can see that. I mean, there's some Saturday nights that are like wild. I mean, literally, we had one a couple of weeks ago which was just unbelievable. People do want to sing along as well; we do get that, and you just sort of try. I have to block it out, but you know, you don't want them to not do that either. You want them to have a good time because that's the whole point of it, right? So it's unless they're standing up in the aisles and going crazy.

[26:35] Tam Mutu: No, they don't do that. We've not had that much so much, but they do get very vocal at the stage door. Do people have a hard time, I guess maybe in general, if people run into you in the street, is there a hard time separating the Duke from the Tam? You know, like do they think because you're sitting here, you're smiling, you're cheerful, you're friendly, like you're not a bad guy?

[27:01] Tam Mutu: No, I don't think so. I think half the time at stage door, to be fair, excuse me, a lot of there's another guy in the show called Max Clayton, who I adore, and he goes out, and a lot of the time they think he's me. So he literally signs a lot of things, and they just say, "Oh, we loved your performance, you're so good." He said, "Oh, thank you very much." He tells me about it every day. I'm like, for goodness' sake, Max. But he thinks it's funny. I'm just going to give him a little shout out there. Generally, people at stage door are nice, and they like what the version we've sort of put across. They do like that. Some people are surprised I actually am British, which is kind of funny. But overall, no, I try, you know, I try and be, I am kind of chill with stuff like that.

I've always like, you know, you can just, you know, say hello to everybody at stage door if you can, and you know, I don't take it that seriously either. You know, I try and just be respectful with everybody and, you know, give, you know, it's nice that they've come backstage. We're not backstage, but to the door to give their time, so you just, you know, try and smile and be polite rather than, you know, shout at them and get out, get out of my way, get out of my way, I'm tired.

[28:18] Tam Mutu: Yeah, be a bit more, do you like throw just throw money at them and walk off? I think we're used to hearing so many American actors, I think, doing British accents that when we hear a real British actor, we're like, oh, that doesn't sound right.

[28:34] Tam Mutu: Yeah, well, you know, there's things that with England, there's so many variants to it though. There's so many dialects and stuff, so you can, you've got to be, you know, I mean, I've heard some brilliant Americans do British accents, and I've heard some real whoppers, you know, real shock and shocking ones. But, you know, it's good, but it depends on what they're doing as well because there are some really hard ones to do, like some of the dialects in England. I mean, I can't do them.

[29:05] Tam Mutu: Do you do a good American accent?

[29:07] Tam Mutu: Yeah, everyone could do like cowboy, you know, I try to do, you know, it's, but again, it's practice. You have to be, people just think you can just do these things, but you know, you have to practice. I, you know, I don't find it anything overly easy. I just, you know, especially when you've been speaking your own accent for a while because the majority of musical theater things you do are generally American anyway. So to then come and do something where I'm actually British is kind of rare, but it's fun. So then when I have to switch back and do American accents for, you know, auditions or TV or whatever, it's, you know, you have to work. I have to work.

[29:41] Alan Seales: Are you still auditioning a lot now? Like you're in this show that obviously is gonna run for a while.

[29:47] Tam Mutu: Not a lot because, obviously, you know, we're still there till, you know, that till the season's up. So, but I mean, it depends what comes, you know, what comes in and televisions and things like that. You know, if they're like guest roles and things like that, the majority of us can do. But anything that's sort of nothing significant enough to take us away from the show at this moment.

[30:02] Alan Seales: Does that stress you out to be in a show but always having to be looking for your next job?

[30:09] Tam Mutu: Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know any actor that isn't always nervous about work. It's just part of the game, I think. It's kind of rare when you get these shows as well, which is, you know, so successful very quickly, and you know, you know that you're in something which is going to run for a bit. So it's always that tricky sort of decision you sort of make, like when's the right time to step away from something as well? That's always hard, I think, because obviously, you know, when you're in something successful, there are a lot of eyes on you, and people want you to go and do their things. But it doesn't necessarily mean that's the right move or right fit for you at that sort of time.

[30:59] Tam Mutu: I mean, I think of some of the Hamilton people, you know, that when they, I think they literally just won all the awards, and then literally most of them had left, you know, by the time, you know, this, straight after Tony's, which to me seemed a bit kind of sad because, you know, you wanted to see all their great work. I mean, I was lucky enough to see them, but it's a tricky one, I think, you know, how long is too long in something? You know, some people stay in shows. I know friends have stayed in shows for four, five, six and been very happy doing it. But obviously, you know, if things come in that you're interested in and you want to do, then you have to sort of weigh up the pros and cons of everything.

[31:38] Alan Seales: Well, what was the longest time you were unemployed? Do you remember? I mean, because you kind of, you have the benefit of, I believe, being able to go back to West End, and you've got a career out there, and you've got your name out here. You've got a career out here as well. So are you, I mean, now is it, it must be easier now to find work than it was ten years ago?

[31:59] Tam Mutu: But I don't know. I think it's kind of evolved so because as you get older, you kind of go into different sort of categories, you know, because it's, and you know, the pool of talent is so huge. There's so many people that are super talented, and there's always someone newer or fresher or, you know, that's not saturated the market so much. So people, you know, people like seeing new people as well. I mean, not to say they don't like seeing, you know, experienced people who've done a lot. You always have to be on top of your game.

[32:36] Tam Mutu: I'd say I wouldn't say it's easier. I don't think it's ever easier. I think it's just whether I do think you still need a lot of luck, and I think you need to be dedicated. And I also think you sort of have to follow your heart a little bit as well with your choices and be happy with your choices because, for example, you know, if you want to be in a show, you know, that is an eight shows a week schedule, which is going to take you out of a lot of other things, but that's this, you know, the sacrifice you make.

[33:04] Tam Mutu: And the pros of that are like, you know, you're in steady work, and you're there for a significant amount of time. And yeah, you know, but like then the next way, you know, you can argue most actors like always want to be doing new things, like consistently working on different projects, but it doesn't always work that way. And if that's what you want to do, then you have to be happy with that and then be prepared to be, you know, free and out of work at times, which is also scary, especially in a city like, you know, this city's an expensive city to live in.

[33:37] Tam Mutu: Absolutely, and London's not cheap either. So, you know, it's not as LA, but it's, you know, it's all a juggling act, I think. I don't think there's ever any right or wrong, and I do think you need luck. And to be, you know, one thing I'm always trying to do is be kind to myself, which I find really hard because I'm really hard on myself. But trying to be kinder to myself with decisions and with what I'm doing and to try and be more present, which is really hard in this day and age because you find everyone's always on their phones or like scattered brains, you know, everywhere. And to actually just be present in the moment with what you're doing is really, really, really, really hard.

[34:18] Tam Mutu: So, and to be happy with that, it's like kind of a lesson in a sense. I mean, not that I want to be preachy, but you know, I find it really, really hard to do that because there's always something when you're in a city like this with, you know, not just a musical theater with the TV industry here and everything. There's always something going on. There's always a new show coming up. There's always another, you know, pool to be in, so to speak.

[34:44] Tam Mutu: So it's what you're, it's teaching yourself and like, you know, being kind to yourself and saying, "Hey, I'm doing this right now. I'm going to give this my all." And when I'm ready, I'll do, you know, just trusting that there's going to be another door because, you know, there's always another door. It just might not be exactly lined up with how you want it to, I guess.

[35:03] Alan Seales: Are you a person that needs to be kind of moving around at a quicker pace, or can you settle into something and feel happy with it? Because my mom used to tell me I have spiel keys, which I think is Yiddish for pins and needles, like I can't sit still.

[35:13] Tam Mutu: No, I'm the fidget. I'm an absolute fidget. I literally can't sit still, and I'm like that with work as well. I can get fidgety and work, you know, if I'm in something for, which, you know, which is unless I feel fulfilled. I think it's when you're not feeling fulfilled, but again, that goes back to like what's your, what do you need? You know, what do you need to fulfill you? So I think it's all lessons they are because it's, as you especially as you get older, you kind of learn to appreciate things more or have to appreciate things more and make sacrifices because not everything is perfect. And ultimately, the person, the only thing you do is end up getting frustrated with yourself.

[35:59] Tam Mutu: Because oh I could be doing this so I could be doing that. Well, well, nothing's ever good enough, nothing's ever good enough, the grass is always greener and I don't think it is. It's just like so you just have to try and learn to go. Hey, I'm doing this. This is great and I'm, you know, and try and enjoy what you're doing. And I that's what I'm been working hard to do and sort of, you know, which is a challenge but I, you know, I'm learning it's maybe slower than most. So I was gonna ask if that's if there's like a recent thing to be okay just sitting where you are or I mean, yeah, it is because like, you know, how often do you get to like be in a hit show? You know you like be some of them it's, you know, I and I speak from experience, you know, I've been in one that didn't even make curtain and I've been in one that's died after two weeks and the rest of Vince, I know had some wonderful jobs and but you learn from those and then when you get something which is an instant hit and people respond to it and love it and it's gonna go around the world and do very well and you're the original person, yeah, what's not to love about that?

It's, you know, some that's a that's something to cherish always and to be working with the people and the team that I've worked with I'm very very grateful and I think you need to remember that as well because success is what is what it's it's a it's a double-edged sword because like I said, you know, you you then go on that train where like there's always something else and people want you for something else and but you sort of lose sight of what's sort of got you there very quickly. You can very quickly so forget yourself so that to me is what I'm sort of like I've have been learning or working on and, you know, I'm just I am I'm grateful for what I'm doing and I love my job and I hope that sort of resonates with people when they see it, but you know, it's you know, not to say that it's easy because it isn't nothing's easy.

You have to work at it and it's, you know, eight shows a week is a grind but it's, you know, it's, you know, try and look on the bright side of things because it could be well, you know, you could be out of work could be sitting there twiddling your thumbs. You could have a cast you don't like either. Okay. Well, that's another thing. Yeah, it seems incredible. You could be in the best job ever and there'd be like a horrible cast around you and you're like, oh well, I can't wait to leave this because it's, you know, it's not a pleasant place to work and luckily all my cast are awful.

[38:25] Alan Seales: So you're the role model, yeah.

[38:28] Tam Mutu: No, I mean my cast is wonderful, you know, you know, they've the team did really well they picked a group of people that get on well, they work well together and and that's, you know, I think that shows I think you can tell.

[38:40] Alan Seales: Oh yeah, no, the watching everybody on stage is such a treat and the energy. I mean once the train pulls out of the station.

[38:46] Tam Mutu: Oh yeah, it doesn't stop right like the choreography and the music the arrangements. I mean literally millions spent on licensing how many songs are are in the show over 70?

[39:01] Alan Seales: Oh yeah over 70 songs and that's all the ones that made it. I mean we had like so many that didn't make it like, you know some great stuff that didn't get, you know, we sadly we couldn't get and things that changed or things that weren't right. It's I mean Justin's like a catalog in himself of musical brilliance, it's been it's been a like, yeah, one of those things as well with musicals of people through saying oh, there's a musical coming on it's done but this has been like so long in the making and like the time and the energy and the money and that goes into it just to sort of get to this final stage and this product that we say product but like this production the presentation, yeah that we have has been there a lot of work and a lot of people's time and energy and there have been things which you know, they've had to iron out and and be ruthless with I mean there was another song. I loved in the show, which didn't make it shake it out, which the Lady M sang with Ziegler and hmm and Satine it was so good.

[40:05] Tam Mutu: You know got cut do the the the original artists like Rihanna Rolling Stones and all these people have they come to see?

[40:11] Alan Seales: We've had a few but not as many as we'd like actually, so if you're listening in to on me on this podcast, please, you know Rihanna come see the show don't be lazy. You know Rolling Stones come along now we've had a few but I'm trying to think who came not as many as we'd like.

[40:30] Tam Mutu: That's actually a question from one of my patrons of a patreon account. They can submit their questions of who is your favorite celebrity who's come to see the show?

[40:38] Alan Seales: Oh, we've had some great celebrities come. We had Hillary Clinton came the other week.

[40:41] Tam Mutu: Oh yeah. Yeah, she was great with their daughter Chelsea. I think there was someone else but couldn't see who it was. I'm one of these people that doesn't like to know when people are in but then literally I get up after my entrance I get up to the booth with the girls and literally they're like such and such is in because they've been scouring the floor because like when they do the opening they might for God's sake but because I just don't like to know I'm always well, I'm one of these people get, you know, I'm nervous enough as it is I don't need to be more nervous because you know Jessica Lange's in or something, you know, which she was she was great. Who else came that I was a bit starstruck Jessica Lang did like knock me for six a little bit. She came with Sarah Paulson the pair of them.

[41:24] Alan Seales: Oh wow.

[41:25] Tam Mutu: They had a great time Amy Adams came drew Barrymore was lovely. She was so sweet. She loved it. There's been a few do you get you still get nervous before you go out?

[41:30] Alan Seales: I'm nervous every day.

[41:35] Tam Mutu: Really? Yeah, that's just mine. I'm a little bit like that nature anyway, because that's the fidget inside me kind of I think I care. I care a lot about what I do. Um, and people think I'm crazy. I think but uh, you know, I do I do always get um, I always put it down as like when I've done when I finish my show every night I'm always sort of proud of myself and that's not to sound like I made it.

[42:01] Alan Seales: Yeah, but no it is a lot. There's an element of that's like, you know, you great job you got through, you know another show it's kind of there's a sense of achievement with that. Um, I don't take any show lightly, you know, I've always been that way I've always like gone out there and tried, you know to be as focused as I can and because you know it matters to me and you know, obviously the public coming to see it, you know, they've not seen it before you don't know that they've seen it before and it's their first experience. So you want to give them the best experience that you can so, you know, if I'm not laser focused then, you know I don't want to give them a wishy-washy sort of performance. So I'm always like that. I do care about my show but yeah, I do. I've always been I've always been nervy always it gets better when I go out. It's usually the pre the pre pre stuff.

[42:47] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah.

[42:48] Tam Mutu: Waiting around.

[42:49] Alan Seales: Yeah, yeah when you start getting in your own head and I've been the same way like going back in my performing days it was you know, the waiting the going, you know, like am I gonna miss my cue miss my cue? And then as soon as you're out there, it's fine. The lights hit you. You're like, all right here I am. Here's my element.

[43:00] Tam Mutu: Yeah.

[43:01] Alan Seales: Yeah, and I would be the same way too if it was like I don't I don't need to know that Obama that Michelle or Barack are out there like I'm gonna I want to give the same hundred percent. I know some people thrive off that they love it.

[43:12] Tam Mutu: Can't know because I just like what you do is then stop thinking about you straight away out your head and they're thinking about, you know, Barack Obama staring at you. It's like why I don't need that. Thank you. Yeah, I need that pressure. It's like but the end of the day it's kind of a double-edged sword because you want it you wanted to like you but the end of the day like it doesn't matter.

[43:30] Alan Seales: No, ultimately, it doesn't matter. You're right. It doesn't matter. It's like it's you know, it's still the show, you know you want to do you you know you've got to get from A to Z. It's the same thing I mean if you do your job people are not gonna like you because the Duke should not be liked.

[43:41] Tam Mutu: Oh, I don't know though. A lot of people are like, I don't know why she picks Christian.

[43:47] Alan Seales: You do realize that, you know, I'm quite dark in the second on they're like, yeah, but I don't know there's something about that Duke. I'm like, wow.

[43:55] Tam Mutu: Says a lot about people like people like a bad boy.

[44:00] Alan Seales: All right, well let's wrap this up here and there are three standard closing questions everybody on the podcast. The first one is very simply what motivates you?

[44:04] Tam Mutu: What motivates me or to always I to always try and be better than I am I think to keep learning not take things for granted. I think that's my overall motivation like and I know I take that into my like personal life as well, you know, just to try and keep growing and learning because you know, it's like a roller coaster which you're on and you kind of can't sort of sit around and expect things and and have these kind of sort of, you know, just expectations of like you can't be like this you can't sit on your your backside and expect things to become to you've got a you know, you've got to work. I think you have to work in your professional life consistently and in your personal life, and I think that's so just near not take things for granted I'd say there's a pretty big one.

[44:57] Alan Seales: All right, and then second one is what advice would you give to your younger self and younger people listening now starting out down a similar path?

[45:04] Tam Mutu: Oh, that's a good one. Don't do it.

[45:09] Alan Seales: I've heard that so many times.

[45:12] Tam Mutu: Don't do it. Um, I would say be kinder to yourself know that it's a journey. It's not like it's there to marathon. It's not a sprint although it does feel like a sprint most days, but it isn't you can fail and that's fine. That's a big one because you learn a lot from failures. It's all very well, like, you know being successful shows and doing well and feeling on top of the world but it's when the it's when you hit the lows and things aren't going so well it's when you learn the most I think because then you it it should make you appreciate everything else that's sort of around you and when things are good. So I'd say one for me would be be kinder to myself maybe be more patient with myself as well.

I struggle with that. That's a that's a huge one to be patient but yeah, kind kind of some patience you're not getting it and that goes towards not giving it to people as well to be to be that way with other people to be more kind and to be more patient with other people around you as well because everyone's on their journey and you know, they're finding their way. You didn't know what happened to them this morning.

[46:27] Alan Seales: Exactly cause them to be exactly. Yeah, whatever it is.

[46:31] Tam Mutu: Yeah.

[46:32] Alan Seales: Okay, so the final question is if you could only see one show for the rest of your life but you can see it as many times as you want. What would you see?

[46:43] Tam Mutu: I'll give I'll say two. One's Moulin Rouge because just to see those people every day is, you know, it's a joy watching it or being in it.

[46:50] Alan Seales: No watch.

[46:54] Tam Mutu: No, I would like to watch it actually, that'd be nice to do just to experience the them all giving their wonderful selves. I'm not that opportunity yet but I probably say Sweeney Todd, maybe.

[47:05] Alan Seales: Maybe I get a lot of Sweeney Todd. That is a popular one.

[47:12] Tam Mutu: I don't know Sweeney Todd. Maybe I do like that show. Well, that's on my bucket list though. So that's probably why but yeah, I'll just go Moulin Rouge everyone come and see it.

[47:25] Alan Seales: Well, we can find you on Instagram and Twitter at tam mu to yes.

[47:30] Tam Mutu: Yes.

[47:36] Alan Seales: You can find me at the theater podcast comm support the podcast via the theater podcast comm slash patreon I am on Instagram and Twitter at theater underscore podcast or facebook.com slash official theater podcast. Please leave a rating leave a review. Tell your friends. This is edited by Matthew Hendershot. Thank you to jukebox the ghost for the intro and outro music and tamu to thank you for being here. This has been wonderful.

[47:52] Tam Mutu: Thank you so much for having me. Bless you.