This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the CATS-TV. I'm your host, Mike Abrams. And today, I am borderline speechless, which is not a good thing for a podcast. But I am speechless because The Wrong Cat Died started as a 10-episode miniseries. And the episode you are listening to right now is episode number 100. So before we get to the 100th episode, which we will tell you all about, I want to walk you through a little bit about how we got to where we are today. And what better way to do that than to talk to the person who is the whole reason that this podcast even exists. He is the host of the theater podcast with Alan Seales and the producer of The Wrong Cat Died. Welcome, Alan.

[0:57] Alan Seales: Hey, I would say I'm the reason the podcast exists because you are the podcast. You are the reason this podcast exists. So let's start there, which is this is part of the Broadway Podcast Network. And so we've known each other for longer than that. We got to know each other back in probably 2016-17 when we started doing work together at our jobs, at work-work, and got to know each other there. But tell us a little bit about the Broadway Podcast Network and how that started.

[1:28] Alan Seales: Oh, man. BPN started, I guess, after I had my own podcast. So the theater podcast, which I just picked randomly because the domain was strangely available. I was trying to think of all these clever things, and all the domains were taken. So I was just like, the theater podcast, all right, we'll go with that. So that happened. And then I created it because I wanted to have conversations and listen to conversations about people in the industry and their journeys and their struggles with success and all that. And then I couldn't find anything. There was a discoverability issue. As soon as I created my podcast, I found a bajillion others that were similar or better or different in all their specific ways.

And then I was like, wait a second, I couldn't find these when I wanted to. And that just gave me the impetus to put them all together in this network. And around that exact same time, I met Dori Berenstein, my co-founder of the network. And she's a four-time Tony winner and producer of a bajillion shows on Broadway over her many-decade career. And through her knowledge of the Broadways and my knowledge of the techs and the podcasts, here we are. And we'll get into this, of course, but when the opportunity to create The Wrong Cat Died popped on, I was like, there we go. Let's run with this.

[2:56] Mike Abrams: But if we go back to when you really first started, I remember you kept asking me to do a podcast. You're like, hey, you should create a podcast. And I'm just like, everything I was working on with you at the time was sports-related. I was doing sports-related content with you. So I was working with basketball players and race car drivers and Olympians and everything else. And it was all sports. And you're like, you've got to do something. And I'm like, it's the Broadway Podcast Network, not the sports-related network. I was like, I don't know anything about Broadway besides going. And turns out I have a history with Cats. And it is not the long history that everyone probably thinks. It's not the didn't-go-as-a-child, which is why you hear my, like, please don't bring kids to the show, which we went this past weekend, which is part of what you're going to hear, where there was lots of kids everywhere, kids all around the theater. So clearly I'm the minority of that belief. But I did take a look back and dug up the history of my Cats fandom, I'll call it fandom, fascination. Healthy obsession.

[4:01] Alan Seales: Yeah, healthy obsession. It stems from my move to New York. So I moved to New York in 2016 for work from Indiana. And I was living in the theater district in temporary housing, just basically me and a suitcase and a backpack is all I had at the time. And I just remember kind of saying, like, we had in a different – all these different shows were coming in. It was right around the Tony time. So all these new things are opening up. And I didn't know any of this at the time. I'm like, oh, there's all these new shows starting. Like, I can walk to them. I can go. Let's go. And I had a friend that gave me two tickets for free. I kind of said, like, I just want to see anything, just what's coming out, what I haven't seen, what historic classic things.

You know, Les Mis was out. Phantom was out. All these things. I'd never seen any of them. So I'm like, what can we go? And they're like, well, Cats just opened. You should come see Cats. So we go to the second to last preview of the preview before they're opening night. It's a weekend. It's a matinee show. It's a Saturday, raining. I'm like eight rows from the stage. I'm in the middle. Thankfully, I'm in the middle because this is when they did Green Eyes. So they were climbing around. And I just was mesmerized for two and a half hours. And I didn't know what to make of it. Like, I really didn't. I didn't know anything about it going in. I knew Memory, but I didn't know Memory was in the show.

Like, when I heard it, I'm like, oh, I know that song. And nothing else. I knew the punchlines. Like, I remember the Team America kind of rough joke about it. Like, you just remember some of that stuff. But I just knew it existed. I didn't know anything else past that.

[6:27] Mike Abrams: And at the time, I was writing a newsletter home to people in Indiana. When I moved, a bunch of people told me they wanted to hear about my experiences. You know, hundreds of people actually sent me their emails. So I said, sure, enough people are going to read this. I'll write it. And I have it pulled up because I started that post by saying, I generally update you on my life's and adventures of New York. And that's the main reason most of you come, to read this. And this post is going to be devoted to the longest-running musical that is currently being revived on Broadway, Cats. And it's because it's the only thing I could think about after seeing it. So this article that exists still, which I'm not going to say, it's pretty hard to find.

I hope people don't look for it. It's kind of fun. I'm going to read you the highlights because the rest is kind of not very great. This is, I would say, less than 24 hours after seeing the show, this is what I wrote. And so I'm going to kind of cover a couple of the things I thought. I think the first thing I thought is nobody could explain to me the plot, which now 100 episodes in, I can tell you, there's a lot more plot than you realize. But I wrote the Wikipedia description, and then I said, I've read the synopsis, I've seen the show, I still don't know what the fuck I witnessed. It was one of the weirdest things I've ever seen in my entire life. I had so many questions. I went on a rant about how I don't think kids should see it.

I went on a rant about the names. And then I did talk about how the dancing was incredible. But the one other line I want to add there is I said, why kids shouldn't see it. As I said last night, I had a nightmare that Mungo Jerry was in my apartment robbing me. And so as an adult, this has permanently scarred me. So I can't imagine as a kid. And I read this back. But not Macavity, Mungo Jerry. No, it was Mungo Jerry. I probably didn't remember Macavity's name, to be honest. The only thing I walked out of that song, theater singing, was Mungo Jerry Ripple Teaser. I just sang it for the next probably week. But that was my history with Cats. And I saw it in 2016. I ended up going exactly a year later, in 2017, when a friend from Indiana visited and was adamant that we see it.

And then I never thought about Cats again. Until 2019, when that movie trailer came out. And that trailer came out, and I got so many texts that I had decided that it's like, okay, it's time to make a joke about this. So I went, and I put on social media. And I've posted this before. If you look at it, I spelled Andrew Lloyd Webber's name wrong. There's a lot of problems with it. And so the trailer comes out, and I have a meme. And it says, I haven't stopped thinking about the Cats trailer since it dropped on Thursday. Thanks a lot, Andrew Lloyd Webber. And it's a picture of me giving what looks like I'm giving a speech. It's not a speech. It's giving a housekeeping for an event that I was moderating.

But I wrote on there, the wrong cat dies at the Jellicle Ball, and the Cats movie will set the record straight. My name is Mike Abrams. Welcome to my TED Talk. And it ended up on Instagram, Facebook, and a couple other things. And you immediately commented below, you should make a podcast called The Wrong Cat Died. And that is the history of how this podcast exists. Because I just remember seeing that going, huh, that's not a bad idea. And I thought, let's maybe figure out 10 episodes. Let's see if I can find anything about the plot, and the history, and the fandom, and what was there. And I'm like, if I can find enough, I'll write you one. If I can find enough, we'll do 10. And we kind of figured out how we'd make this work.

And the first one was just fascinating to write. I found so much information about Old Deuteronomy. Couldn't get over the fandom, and all the crazy theories people had put together. And I started writing 10 episodes, which I am horrified to listen to. I don't know if you've listened to them in the past. But now with what I know out of 100 episodes, I'm horrified to think about what my theories are from the first 10, that a lot of them have to be clearly wrong. Because I was doing them in order. And I didn't know the ninth and tenth character at all when I was writing the first two or three. So I'm learning as I'm going, as we're recording these every week leading up to the movie. And it was a blast. I don't remember, how was it for you on that side? As the editor of that, hearing my just raw interpretation of a show I've only seen twice.

[9:41] Alan Seales: What's interesting, there's a couple things I want to touch on. The first one is that I don't remember giving you the title. Now that you said it, I'm like, okay. But it's funny how memory works, no pun intended. Because what I remember in my mind is that Facebook post where the text on the image says, the wrong cat died, welcome to my TED talk. That's what I thought you posted. I didn't realize, okay. You wrote it. There we go, so memory is faulty and funny. Okay, no pun intended. And what was interesting, like you said, we just came from the national, we were filming and recording all weekend with the National Tour of Cats in Washington, D.C. at the National Theater. And I've seen the show several times.

I've grown up with the music. And I've now worked with you on a hundred episodes, including those first ten. And every time I talk to you, there's something new that I still didn't realize. Going back in, we saw the show twice this past weekend. And I'm like, okay, yeah, so there's a character named Peter. I missed that. All right, so Bombayurina. All right, I know who she is now. I guess I just missed when she was introduced in the music somewhere. There's all these little things that, unless you are so into the show that you actually look into researching it like you've done, you have no fucking clue. Any of this. Like there's Baby Grizz, and all the extra characters of who plays who. And then you get into the actual logistics of the business of the show, of like if you're a swing, then you go this track.

But this track includes these multiple characters. So one person could be doing this and this and this. And it blows my mind how much real data there is and then what was extra fun to experience in real time with you. Because every time we go into the studio to record those first ten episodes, it's like you're not going to believe the fan fiction about this character. I can't. And we definitely had some moments, because we were doing those first ten in the studio. And it was always like here's your window, and then there's somebody coming in for an interview. And I just remember there was a couple times, and I won't say who the actors were coming in to do interviews, but I was finishing saying some of the most ridiculous sentences you could possibly imagine.

Something about Taylor Swift giving Buster Jones a lap dance. And then in walks this Broadway star, and I'm like they're going to have no idea what's going on. How do I explain to them what's happening? And it turns out that's kind of the genesis of how we ended up with 100. It's because as those things happened, someone's like why don't you just talk to the 2016 cast? And about halfway through I was like that sounds fun. Let's talk to them. So we got put in touch, and the very first one was Maria Falea.

[12:50] Mike Abrams: Booth Singer, which I didn't know existed again, another crazy part of CATS. And then we had Christopher Gurr, who was Gus, on the 2016. And I remember Christopher came into the studio with us and just for weeks we were like, is he gonna find this funny? Like, is he gonna, is he gonna be okay with this? And like he was a joy. He was so fun. And, and it was like, I was like, wait, maybe this is what we keep doing. Because we saw the movie, we went, we got the 10, we saw the movie, and then it was like, ah, do we want to continue? And I had a lot of people lined up who wanted to talk about it. And I was like, all right, I guess I'll just start doing these interviews. And then I started to realize that like, over time, not only am I documenting the history of CATS, like full on getting from people who are experiencing it in various different productions, but I'm also hearing all these different theories.

And you got some that aren't necessarily truth, or maybe is not written. And you've got certain cast members in different productions saying that's not true, but this is true. And this is true, but that's true. And you got a lot of wide range. And so we're here 100 episodes later. And I think I want to call it a couple highlights. And then I want to give some stats because I did pull some stats for this 100th episode. So a couple highlights are, one is we did the Broadway CARES Equity Fights AIDS with the US National Tour number three, where we did a live event for the reopening of Broadway and fundraise for Broadway CARES, which was super cool to have them come on. And with that, I wrote a parody of memory that was performed and created with a music video and all that was like super fun that again, never would have thought could have possibly happened.

But the part that kind of really blows my mind is everyone's always asked, how many episodes are you going to do? And I'm like, well, as long as people want to talk to me from the cast, I'm, I'm in. And it's, it's an endless population of people. I have already talked to 14 different productions, official productions, that's not including regional college, anything else. Once we get to episodes 100 plus, which a handful are already recorded, that number goes up to 18 that I'm aware of. So I've talked to the 1998 movie, original Broadway, original West End, 2016 Broadway, Vienna Revival, West End Revival, US tours, two, three, four, five, six, pre pandemic six. Now Oasis of the Seas, which is Royal Caribbean and the 2020 South Korea cast.

You're going to add the US tour one. I'm going to add the Australian tent tour. I'm going to add the European tour in the nineties. I'm going to add a German production, got all of these continuing to go. And these have been going on for years. It's currently as of today, running in five different cities. So when we were seeing it, we were one of five cities running that night. And so it's just an endless group of people. So I will continue documenting Cat's history as long as people are willing to continue to talk with me. And of course, debate the most important thing, which is the Jellicle choice, which is the other part.

[15:46] Mike Abrams: Before you get into this final stat, which I think is really interesting, I want to call out to that. I don't know if you mentioned this on the podcast. I know that others have mentioned it in their interviews with you, but new people joining new casts are listening to episodes from past cast members in their roles they're swinging into or taking over so that they can understand more of the backstory and how other people have done it before them. So you're literally documenting how everybody is doing their characters, is becoming their cat so that the new people taking over can have an easier time jumping in in the same way. It's fascinating in that regard.

[16:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that was one of the few things that really blew my mind is when I heard that originally. And I've heard it a couple of times, so I know it's happening more than once, is that you get the Chrissy Cartwright telling you what your three words are on your story when you go in, but then you get to go as you try to do your own creative process. You can hear a couple other people who have done it in different variations and different productions, and they are using the episodes to get maybe not exactly how they're going to do it, but here's how they tackled this thing or added to it, and then they can build their own version from that. So yeah, it's one of the many things that has been fascinating to hear is that.

The other thing is, my whole thesis is I don't think Grizabella is the right choice. That's evolved over time. You could hear, I thought it should be an X Factor, so that was a very different answer versus saying, I think it should be Gus with Grizabella staying for the year, which is my current pitch. But I have taken every single episode where someone did rank a vote, and I have the stats, and I will share them on social media as well. We have had 13 different Jellicle choices. I do have 15, since a lot of people have like, oh, here's my one and two, but this is just number one if I made them pick one. Right now, the number one vote is Grizabella, but, boo, I agree, but she only gets 49% of the vote, which means that half of the people, more than half of the people that I talk to...

[18:02] Unknown speaker: We're going off electoral college still, so that's why.

[18:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah, we're not doing a rank voting either, too. I did notice, too, though, when we asked the cast when we were filming with them, and it was not 50-50. It was way more skewed to me, so I think I'm slowly influencing the world on this that like, hey, next time when we run this at 200, 300, 400, Grizabella's numbers are going to go down. But Gus is next at 35, and then you've got Skimbleshanks, Old Deuteronomy, and Macavity, which actually kind of surprised me, have the same amount of votes, and then you've got Victoria, Demeter, Bustopher-Jones, Cassandra, Monkish Trap, Baby Griz, Jelly Lorm, and Sillabob, who all have one vote each.

[18:34] Unknown speaker: It's 1% right now, or one vote?

[18:37] Mike Abrams: Well, it's 1%, but it's one vote.

[18:38] Unknown speaker: Sillabob.

[18:39] Mike Abrams: Why Sillabob?

[18:40] Unknown speaker: It's one vote. You know, I've got to go back to how some ... A lot of times you get some where it's like, that was their cat. I do remember the Bustopher-Jones vote was Donna Bovino, whose argument was he's the biggest strain on the Jellicles, and so that was her reasoning, which I thought was really funny.

[18:57] Unknown speaker: He's the biggest resource user?

[18:59] Mike Abrams: A challenge. He's a resource user, so if we get him out, we'll be better off.

[19:04] Unknown speaker: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of Deuteronomy votes, a couple of Skimbleshanks votes, but then obviously Cass.

[19:09] Mike Abrams: So that leads us to what you're going to hear, which was ... I want to talk a little bit about the experience, because it was so much fun. For the 100th, we reached out to the cast team, the amazing cast team, who's been so fun to work with, and kind of pitched them this idea of like, hey, what if we came down there, talk to the cast, hear some of their theories, hear their stories, but then also give them an idea to go on stage with? And I'm not going to say rewrite the story or change anything material, but what if we gave them a relationship that maybe isn't common that they could go play off of, or maybe something even more wild, and we gave them a couple, and you'll hear what they are in this video.

And then we got to go watch it, and we told them we were going to sit, and I will tell you, for me personally, it was fascinating, because I could see some of those moments where I'm like, I think they're playing into this. I think this is working. And then you can see some time where they're looking at us like, oh, they were into it. And this video kind of captures me giving the idea, hearing from them, and then we went back on Saturday and heard from the group, did it work, did it not work? And I think most of them worked. I think a couple of them didn't work, but my goal was always to influence the show. I kept joking. I want to go in and kind of just be a director behind the scenes and say, let me give you all the relationships.

And it's clear from this video that I have the ability to do it, one, and that it worked, because it did give them something to play off of. They all seemed to love it, and they all seemed to have the new things that they can kind of go with into future shows, which I think is important, too, for a tour, where they're going city to city to city and need stuff to keep it fresh every eight days a week. But what did you notice? Did you notice anything watching it?

[20:48] Unknown speaker: Yeah, it was interesting, because the two things I noticed the most was it was the various mother-daughter or parental-child relationships that were suggested, because you could see how, especially with Grizabella coming back, if the people who thought they were now playing it, who were now her offspring, were seeing a little bit differently. And then the relationship between, what are the two girls?

[21:22] Mike Abrams: Bomba and Demeter.

[21:24] Unknown speaker: And then you give the suggestion of Bomba and Demeter, instead of being siblings, that there's more than that. It's some sort of romantic relationship, but the two actresses leaned into that hard. And you could tell they were playing around with that. And it was funny, because others were commenting that they noticed that and some of the other changes that were made. So it was cool, because outside of just the direct interaction with the one-on-one changes you were suggesting, the rest of the cast noticed all of it. And it was a unique show. I hope they continue to use that sort of stuff. But the show that we witnessed that Friday night and then into the Saturday matinee, those two shows, those are unique in a way that I don't know if they'll ever exist in that form again. So we've influenced history in a way that's really, really cool.

[22:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I loved exactly what you said, which is we gave them the plots one by one, so they weren't together. And so then they went back and did the show. And then the next day, they were together. And they got to kind of hear like, oh, I was wondering what your thing was, or I didn't notice it, but I saw this, I saw that. And you can see it's just like they're all loving it and having a great time. So what you're going to hear next is actually a video that we put together that kind of pieces together our experience. So what we went hearing from the cast, the ideas, and then some of the follow-up of how those things landed. You'll be able to see the video if you want to. This is gonna be the audio from the video. But if you want to watch the video and see everything, you can go to bpn.fm slash TWCD100. So it stands for The Wrong Cat Died 100. And you'll be able to see the video live and watch it, or here it will be the audio.

[23:12] Mike Abrams: So I want to shout out the Cats team, everyone on the production who helped us, Emma, who was gracious enough to make our day super easy, everyone at the National Theater, and then the amazing cast who were just a joy to work with and had so much fun hanging out with us for the two days. And I hope you enjoy the video. My name is Ellie. I am a swing and I believe the wrong cat died.

[23:37] José Raúl Mangual: Hi, I'm Jose Raul Mangual and I do believe the wrong cat died.

[23:46] Taryn Smithson: Hi, I'm Taryn Smithson. I play Rumpelteazer.

[23:52] Brian Craig Nelson: Hi, my name is Brian Nelson and I play Mungo Jerry. And I believe the wrong cat died.

[23:58] Yuka Notsuka: Hi, my name is Yuka. I play Victoria. I think the wrong cat died.

[24:04] Megan Arseneau: I'm Megan. I played Demeter tonight. And I believe the wrong cat died.

[24:10] Erica Cianciulli: My name is Erica. I play Bombalurina and I believe that the wrong cat died.

[24:16] Michelle E. Carter: Hi, my name is Michelle E. Carter. I play Jenny Annie Dots and I believe that the wrong cat died.

[24:22] Tayler Harris: Hey y'all, my name is Zam. I play Skimbleshanks and I cover Gus and I believe the wrong cat died.

[24:27] Luke Bernier: My name is Luke Bernier. I am playing the Rum Tum Tugger tonight and I do not believe the wrong cat died.

[24:32] Ibn Snell: My name is Ibn Snell. I play Misto and I do believe the wrong cat died.

[24:38] Tayler Harris: Hello, I'm Taylor Harris. I play Grizabella the Glamour Cat and I do believe the wrong cat did not die because Grizabella the Glamour Cat is the one and only Glamour Choice. She is, wait, the Glamour Choice. She is the Jellicle Choice. I mean, she's the glamorous Jellicle Choice. But yeah, the wrong cat did not die. Thank you. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[25:04] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Sash Trophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and I'm here at the National Theater in Washington, D.C. I am so excited for the hundredth episode. I have been graciously accepted into the U.S. National Tours family and spent the day recording with them and asking them about all the crazy things and how they interpret the show, how they look at everything. And then I gave them a few things to play with on stage. And where I'm standing right now is where Alan Seales of the Theater Podcast with Alan Seales, who also produces this podcast, and I are going to

[25:39] Mike Abrams: And we're going to be sitting tonight, and we're going to watch from here, right here in the seat, stage right here, and we're going to watch to see how do those ideas land. And then tomorrow, we're going to come back and talk to them and see, does that work as a theory, or is it just nonsense? So stay tuned, watch the video, and we'll be back with more tomorrow.

[26:04] Ibn Snell: What's the wildest thing that you, when you first started doing this, that you realized that maybe you didn't know going in? It's like, because I think Demeter falls in that for me, which is like, oh, that's her backstory. Like, I didn't know that. So that was like my aha moment. What was your kind of, wow, I didn't realize this part of CATS?

[26:19] Taryn Smithson: Um, well, I thought it was hilarious when they said, when they were talking about Cass, and they were like, and Cass obviously has just gotten back from boarding school. And I just thought that was really funny to think about, because she is a bit more, you know, hoity toity into herself. And I could just imagine her inner monologue of just like, oh, gosh, like, I remember back in when I was eating caviar at boarding school. So Jenny is the mother of the tribe. She's sort of like this motherly matronly figure, who makes sure that everything goes according to plan. She oversees the day to day operations. And she makes sure, especially with the younger kittens, that all of them stay in line. And she essentially raises every kitten in this tribe.

[27:00] Luke Bernier: Okay. I call Skimbleshanks the Christmas cat sometimes, because I don't even know why, but like, sometimes our monkey strap will even stay on stage when he's not supposed to, Merry Christmas to me after I hopped out from the stairs. But I saw this thing on Tumblr that was like, Skimbleshanks was on the train as a kitten one morning, and he was gifted a silver bell from Santa Claus. And ever since then, he's fallen in love with the trains and trying to capture that magic, and that's why he's dedicated to the trains. Probably not canon, but I just thought it was really cute. Gives me a reason to wear my little bell around my neck during the number.

[27:38] Brian Craig Nelson: Well, I think a lot of people think they're siblings, which is a common misconception. But we worked with Chrissy Cartwright, and we got the facts that they do have a little bit of a crush on each other.

[27:49] Taryn Smithson: Okay. Well, she has a crush on me. I have a crush on Mungo.

[27:52] Luke Bernier: Okay, fine, fine. I have a crush on Mungo. And so we kind of play it like they're a little Bonnie and Clyde, a little duo. When it comes down to it, I like Rump too. I just like flirting with the older female cats in front of her. Can't help myself.

[28:05] Taryn Smithson: So you're not together, but you're not, but you're clearly not siblings.

[28:08] Luke Bernier: We'll end up that way.

[28:09] Taryn Smithson: Oh yeah, okay.

[28:10] Luke Bernier: We'll end up that way.

[28:11] Taryn Smithson: Okay. At least in my head, we're not together yet. She just tags along.

[28:14] Luke Bernier: It's what the kids call a thing.

[28:15] Taryn Smithson: A thing, yeah, yeah.

[28:16] Luke Bernier: It's what the kids call a thing. We're seeing the early, you know, parts of this relationship forming.

[28:21] Taryn Smithson: A real life backstory fact that Chrissy gave us is they're based off the Bisto kids originally. Have you heard this before?

[28:28] Luke Bernier: No.

[28:29] Taryn Smithson: They're on the set. Actually, it's an advertisement. You can get a picture later, I guess. But they were like these poor street kids that it was like a Bisto gravy ad, and they'd be at the windowsill smelling the gravy, and they're like, ah, you know, it's like affordable gravy so everyone can have it. And then it's like luxury, so we're like these poor, scrappy kids was the original conceit. And then Andy, of course, aged us, and now we're teenagers.

[28:51] Ibn Snell: I think Tugger and Mistoffelees, I think they're purely innocent. I think they're just, for me, they're just besties. I think Tugger is just like, I think of him as like this big rock star boy, and Mistoffelees is just like his—

[29:05] Taryn Smithson: He's like his muse.

[29:06] Ibn Snell: He's just his muse. He's fun, like best friend. It's like almost like opposites attract, because they couldn't be any more different. And they're both like, they have like high energies, and they contrast a little bit.

[29:15] Taryn Smithson: They do.

[29:16] Ibn Snell: I don't think they play off each other so well.

[29:18] Taryn Smithson: Yeah, and whenever I'm on for Tugger and I catch Ibn at any point in the show, it's always just like this wink in the eye, this sparkle, it's like, oh, yeah. It's just like, it's an unspoken bond that they have.

[29:29] Ibn Snell: Yeah.

[29:30] Taryn Smithson: I love it. It's like a true friendship.

[29:32] Ibn Snell: First time I saw the cats was like I was young, so I didn't know deep inside story about it. And then once I started those process, the whole thing, and then once I grew up myself to realize, oh, okay, that's that, they're connecting. So yeah, both like surprising, but yeah, they did like really beautiful way. It was beautiful way to show the girl, like as a woman, and as like, like a doll, and using your body to tell that story. So doing that choreography every night, like I feel like it's just beautiful.

[30:12] Taryn Smithson: There was a part of me that I'm kind of came up with this own theory for my own self was that I was, I'm afraid that if I don't have him, I'd be alone, right? Like I wouldn't have the community and I'm afraid I would turn into what Grizabella is, because she's alone, she, you know, went down the dark path in the cavity that could very easily happen to me.

[30:28] Ibn Snell: Especially according to the cavity.

[30:30] Taryn Smithson: Right, right. So I think I, I really like following Tay's journey with that and feeling like, I feel bad for her, but also like, oh, I don't want that to happen to me, I don't want to get too close to that. So I play with that a lot too, which is fun. And I think, you know, obviously she's, she's the choice. So I have a sort of like, respect for her and there's a gravity to my relationship with her at the end, because I don't want that to be me, that could very easily have been me, you know?

[30:58] Brian Craig Nelson: I don't see them as sisters, but like the relationship is pretty sisterly.

[31:04] Taryn Smithson: I would say older, younger.

[31:07] Ibn Snell: Yeah, I, I think sisterly is the most common that I play, but I think it shifts with like the different people who go on. I like to believe that normally it's his decision, he just observes the tribe and it's not so taxing or laborious a decision. This year, the, I think Old Deuteronomy is seeing something in the tribe that he's not seen at least in a long time. And it's something that needs to be addressed and it's dramatically influencing his decision.

[31:43] Taryn Smithson: And this is something that I've, that has really shaped the way that I play her. And I feel like a lot of the rest of the cast, like people definitely have differing opinions on this. I think that Jenny is, well, first off, Deuteronomy is old, obviously, Old Deuteronomy. And I think he's old to the point where this is probably his last year. And that's the reason why Monk is being, Monkey Strap is being trained and being made to orchestrate the Jellicle Ball this year is because Deut is training him so that he can run it next year and be the one to take it over. And then Jenny is obviously assisting with that and helping to make sure that Monk is staying in line and all that. That being said, I think that this tribe would sort of fall apart without Jenny.

I don't think realistically that, I think realistically she's a good choice for the Jellicle choice, especially this year. But given the circumstances of Deuteronomy and his impending passing and this tribe not having an older figure to step in, I don't, at the end of the day, think that she deserves to die at the end. Or more so that she deserves it, but that she's so needed that she can't.

[33:01] Ibn Snell: Grizabella totally deserves to be the Jellicle choice, first and foremost. Always the Jellicle choice. Because I think, like, I don't know, who doesn't love an underdog, or in this case, an undercat, did it? I've been waiting to say that. But I just, I don't know. I think going back to the three words that I received for Grizabella in the initial process almost a year and a half ago, so exciting, proud, indomitable, and hurt. That feline, literally, despite everyone, like, hating her and not wanting her there, she still shows up because she's like, no, you guys are going to eventually hear me. And I think that perseverance deserves so much admiration and praise for just, like, despite what everyone else may want her to do, she's like, well, I'm going to do it this way, and you're going to eventually listen. And they do. So, per.

[33:50] Taryn Smithson: But I think you should have another year. So, why are you not next year's Jellicle Choice? Like, don't you want to come back and have your Victoria's birthday party and every, all the other stuff coming back to the tribe? Maybe? Just a little bit?

[34:01] Ibn Snell: Because, I mean, you do see me kind of, like, get with it and the Jellicle ball when I sneak in and I'm, like, kind of, like, mirroring what Victoria does. Because I'm like, oh, I remember this. I still remember. But, hmm, honestly, though, nah, I want to go to the Happy Feather Fair.

[34:18] Taryn Smithson: You're done. You're it. It's like, I'm, this is it. You don't want to come back. You don't want another year.

[34:23] Ibn Snell: I remember every time I knew what happiness was. I'm going to, I'm going to go up now.

[34:25] Taryn Smithson: Yeah.

[34:26] Ibn Snell: Very much so. I mean, to be fair, they also clapped when I died last night, and that never happens. And I've done this show, like, over 400 times now. So that was a win in my book for redemption, even further.

[34:38] Brian Craig Nelson: Brian Taylor, the head music guy, he was like, I want to hear you sing this Macavity interval and just kept plunking out, like, Macavity, Macavity. And I was, like, in my head, like, panicking, because I was like, I don't understand what he's saying. Like, what is this word that he's saying? And so before I sang, I was like, I'm so sorry, are you saying my cavity? And, like, Chrissy was in the room, Kim Craven was in the room, everyone was. And they just started busting out laughing. And he was like, no, Macavity is the name of a cat in the show. So, like, obviously mortified. Made a joke about the dentist and it was fine. But yeah, that was hilarious.

[35:19] Taryn Smithson: Also, like, what part of, like, is the opening even, like, part of the timeline? Or is that, like, something that sits alone by itself? To me, it kind of seems like a prologue. And then it really starts with Victoria's dance of, like, like, that is the first thing of the night. Okay. Now we're getting into this. This is great. So you have, I like that part is the prologue is not, is not even part of the night.

[35:40] Ibn Snell: Yes.

[35:41] Taryn Smithson: Because it's just like, why, why do we all leave to then make an entrance like we're seeing each other for the first time?

[35:46] Ibn Snell: Yep.

[35:48] Taryn Smithson: Well, what other things have you kind of filled in the blanks on that maybe you weren't told? The relationship to, like, Mungo and Rump, I think is really cool. I happen to be, like, good friends with, you know, both Brian and Taryn. So I'm sure that there's parts of that that bleed into it. I've actually come up with something for Tugger, which is, I haven't heard it before and it's been around for, you know, so many years that so maybe someone else has thought of this, I actually just told Tay Grizabella this a couple of days ago on Instagram Live. I have this theory that, so we have the three Macavity brothers, or excuse me, the three Deuteronomy brothers, Macavity, Mungo, and Tugger, and we know that Grizabella or, you know, we theorize or whatever that Grizabella is Mungo's mom.

I don't think that Grizabella is Tugger's mom. I think Tugger and Grizabella have a relationship of sorts that's happening during the, you know, the timeframe of the show. So we know that they're both not in the opening. And I think that's a little bit intentional. And then after the song, Rum Tum Tugger, during, you know, Grizabella the Glamour Cat, she comes out, we're all singing out or whatever, and when she leaves, Tugger leaves the stage right when she does. And for me, that's, you know, that's his time to like check in on her, not like talk, like interact with her, but, you know, watch her from afar to make sure that she, you know, is safe and is not dying at that point.

[37:04] Taryn Smithson: So I think he has a secret little affair with her going on.

[37:09] Ibn Snell: So do you think he's the reason she comes back this year? If you're not with, are you with her when you're not in the opening number, and you're bringing her back?

[37:16] Taryn Smithson: I don't think he's bringing her back. I think, I think he has a soft spot in his heart for her that maybe he doesn't even know because he's just this egomaniac of a cat. But I think when he sees her, like, I think, I think for him, and for all the cats really, but Grizabella really is his seeing her during the timeline of like the song memory is his time to be like, Oh, my gosh.

[37:40] Ibn Snell: I think I yeah, and I always they tell us like, there's a certain part in the song that we have to turn around that each individual cat has their own time. And I when she says, Are you first? No, no, no, no, no, I kind of do it, whatever. But I well, I decided to start doing it when she goes, I can smile at the old days. I was beautiful then. And that's when he's like, No, like, you're so beautiful now. And I've always thought that and so it's, it's, that's his like, turning point in the show for me. He's like, No, I love this woman.

[38:11] Taryn Smithson: I think a lot of the choices that I've made have to do with who Jenny is actually familial he related to, and who she's not because she obviously acts as a mother to everyone. But realistically, which ones actually came out of her and which ones didn't makes a lot.

[38:29] Megan Arseneau: Throughout the show, and as they stopped being loyal to Macavity, I feel like I sort of changed my opinion on them as well. Because they probably, like in the moments that I'm mischievous that probably creeps out because I'm sure I was like that before I had this responsibility or this responsibility that I have given myself in my own head about keeping the trains on time. I think I was probably like a like a Mungo Jerry Rumpus Teaser until I got that responsibility. And now, now it's, you know, something that I really pride myself in.

[41:03] Megan Arseneau: Okay, I love it. The way that I'm playing it, and I think Zam is also playing it, is that Skimbleshanks and Jenny are definitely together. Some people play that they're just like besties, and that they're just having lots of fun on the car boot together all the time. I think they're together far too often for that to be platonic. Um, so I definitely think they're together, and especially the way that we play it. I mean, we like, we're sweat cuddling is what I call it. So we're literally just actively sweating on each other, but we're cuddling the whole time on the car boot.

[41:38] Megan Arseneau: Oh, well, okay, maybe the weirdest is for me, as I also cover Plato Macavity. And in doing so, Plato has a developmental issue that he's battling with. And in his courting Victoria, it is a force beyond him that is leading him to her. And that force happens to be his alter ego, which is Macavity. They're never at the same place at the same time. And they actually share similar choreographic moments. So when I'm one or the other, it's the other, it's the other cat fighting through. I've always found that like, I did the show on Royal Caribbean as well. And a lot of our blocking and choreography, I was next to Plato a ton. And I found that like in this version as well, with Plato a lot. And there's a moment at the end of the ball where Plato, Sam Buchanan, who plays Plato here, he puts his arm out and like kind of protects me to back off from Griz.

And it's a moment where I'm like, does Plato get around? And like, because this is with Victoria, right? And I'm like, and Bom, you know, she's voluptuous, right? So she's very sexual as well, sensual. So I feel like they probably have been together at some point, maybe around the time she went to Macavity. But even though he is younger.

[43:03] Megan Arseneau: I think what's going on is like, I think at that point, like pre-Macavity, she's very much like in the scene. She's kind of like the belle of the ball, pre-Victoria. There's a lot of even deeper theories about how Victoria is my character's daughter. So do you think that?

[43:19] Ibn Snell: I do.

[43:20] Megan Arseneau: I do kind of think that. I also think Monkey Strap is my son. For sure. I would say Bom and Demeter, like they were my friends. They were there with me. And they were able to escape. And I kind of got stuck in it and just too sucked in. So like...

[43:32] Ibn Snell: How do you interpret the relationship with Grizabella?

[43:35] Yuka Notsuka: I think Victoria see her as like Grizabella is like really innocent. When Grizabella was younger, she was like Victoria. So Victoria sees her like really innocent. Why everybody? Why everybody like hate her? Why? She doesn't understand. She doesn't see outside. She sees inside. And she kind of connect because Victoria is so innocent. So that's why she was like, I don't agree with everybody. And I'm going to touch her. So that's connecting. So I think young Grizabella was Victoria.

[44:13] Megan Arseneau: Okay. I think Demeter is in danger of becoming just like Grizabella. Whether or not she's like had contact with Grizabella, I don't picture that personally. I think maybe Bom has though.

[44:30] Ibn Snell: Bom knows her more.

[44:32] Megan Arseneau: Yeah. Um, I think that Grizabella was the first to go off with Macavity. And Bom happened to be around that similar time. After Bom got out, Griz, of course, didn't. And I almost have like a small feeling. I haven't really like thought so much about it. But I had like a slight moment the other week during the show where like possibly Demeter could be Grizabella's daughter, the daughter of her and Macavity.

[45:05] Yuka Notsuka: That's interesting. We always talk about like the colors of the costumes and all that. But yeah, I think that Bom had a really close relationship with Grizabella. And when Bom got out, she kind of took in Demeter.

[45:21] Ibn Snell: Why?

[45:22] Megan Arseneau: Still figuring it out in my show. But then I also think though, if you are sisters, and that means that Griz is also your mom. It would be for Demeter. So is that something that like, is there? Have you played with that on stage? It's like that is part of the family tree, essentially.

[45:38] Yuka Notsuka: I mean, for Bom, you have.

[45:39] Ibn Snell: But as Demeter, you're looking as a warning sign, as a warning sign of like, that's my motherly warning sign.

[45:45] Megan Arseneau: I've never thought about that on stage.

[45:47] Ibn Snell: Well, tonight, this is what I'm here for, as I'm slowly, slowly adding to theories. And this wasn't the crazy one that I had for you all. But I would be curious to hear how does that land when you're on stage tonight, when she comes out?

[46:01] Megan Arseneau: It's like mom. That'll bring a whole new meaning to her solo there during "Memory." That'll be a whole completely different thing. And I don't know, I think it's more fun to think that Demeter doesn't even know that Grizabella is her mother.

[46:17] Ibn Snell: Yeah.

[46:17] Megan Arseneau: And it's like, more of an internal thing, which is why I've never brought it up.

[46:22] Ibn Snell: No, no, we're trying.

[46:24] Megan Arseneau: I'm trying every day. And again, 100 episodes to influence this by adding layers to this that hadn't been thought of, or have been thought of, but maybe for this performance, haven't. Because you can play this so many different ways. You can say mom today, not today. Nobody told us when we stop working from Macavity, or if we turn on him.

[46:43] Ibn Snell: And yet in the fight scene, I feel like it's very clear, at least in this version, that we are now with the Jellicle tribe. So this was like a journey that Taryn and I had to decide for ourselves. And I feel like it's been evolving. Even like a few weeks ago, we noticed that our points are different in the show, I guess.

[47:06] Megan Arseneau: So you were part of the crime game with Macavity, but you're out now.

[47:10] Ibn Snell: So you think that by the time that this ball happens, you're not in the ring anymore.

[47:15] Megan Arseneau: I feel like we still work for Macavity.

[47:16] Ibn Snell: Okay, so is there a moment where you stop that feeling?

[47:19] Megan Arseneau: Yeah.

[47:20] Ibn Snell: Yeah. When is that?

[47:21] Megan Arseneau: When are we going to be sitting down there? When am I going to see that moment where you're just like, I'm out, I'm done? And actually, we're proud because Alana saw our journey, because she knows the show really well. She's like, I really liked that this was the movie.

[47:32] Ibn Snell: Yeah, well, there's two big moments that stick out to me. One is right before the ball, where we have, he's a fiend in feline shape. And he kind of leaves me, and I'm out there alone. And I'm like, oh my god, Macavity is going to come after me. And now I don't have him to protect me or be with me through that. That's kind of a moment of hesitation. I don't really want to do this anymore for Macavity. So that's a big turning point for me.

[47:56] Ibn Snell: And then again, when the fight happens, and I get taken under his spell.

[48:03] Megan Arseneau: Right. And that is definitely where I switch. Because Macavity treats female cats differently. Classic man.

[48:13] Ibn Snell: When he hypnotizes Rump, that's for sure my last straw. But I feel like where you can see the journey, if you watch closely, is every Macavity scare. Because the very first Macavity scare, we're not on stage. But the Macavity scare before the ball, it's more like, oh shit, he's going to... Can I swear on your back?

[48:32] Megan Arseneau: It's like, he's going to see us hanging with the tribe. And he's going to see that we're not cool and serious. We're playing with these. So the first scare is like, get out of here before he notices us. When the second scare, it's after moments of happiness. And we've grown a little. And we're starting to like our family. And then it's less like, oh, he's going to see us with them. And like, oh, we don't want him to ruin this night for us, is how we feel. Like, wow, God, why are you coming to ruin the joy of this night that we're finding together?

[49:04] Megan Arseneau: And then when he finally comes, it's gone.

[49:10] Ibn Snell: I don't think Cillabub is mine. I think Cillabub... I've always seen Cillabub as belonging to either Griz and being the result of Griz and Macavity's interactions. Or some people even think that Cillabub is the product of Bomb and Macavity's interaction. And I can definitely see either of those. I think the way I'm playing it is that she's Griz's baby. And that part of the reason that I'm so pissed when Griz re-enters is because, and this is something that Chrissy Cartwright and I actually talked directly about, is that when Griz left, she had kids. She was a mother, too. And who was left to take care of them? It was you.

[50:56] Tayler Harris: Me. I think Mistoffelees has this competitive side, obviously, to him. So sometimes he's very like, oh, I'm interested. And sometimes he's like, I want nothing to do with this. So I definitely play with that contrast. And sometimes it's hard because I'm switching on and off from like, oh, I'm interested in this and I don't want to do this. Or, oh, I don't really care about this too much.

[51:09] Megan Arseneau: You're going to make the Jellicle choice tonight. Who are you picking and why?

[51:14] Tayler Harris: OK, that's a good question. And obviously, I've been prepared to talk about it.

[51:19] Megan Arseneau: So Jenny was there when Macavity was born, helped raise him. And that's part of the reason why I feel like a lot of the rest of the female cats in the show react terrified of Macavity, because they're afraid that he's going to sexually exploit them. That being said, I feel like I've always played it differently with Macavity, because I know that I was a presence in his life from a young age. And that while he's not going to do that to me, because that would be strange, because I acted as his mother figure as a child, he's still evil and is still hurting the people I love.

[51:19] Ibn Snell: But I still keep going between two. Either Gus, because I feel like that's a staple answer, but he has lived such a good long life and has brought so much joy to so many people through the theater, obviously, as we know. And I just, I want to give him another go at life to either do it all again, or to, you know, go out and live another sort of life that he wants to live. But then I also feel like Jenny Any Dots would be a really good one, because she has spent her whole life, like making sure others are doing what they're supposed to, like keeping others in line. You know, trying to help the mice better themselves, help the cockroaches have sort of a purpose in life. And I just think that she should get a chance to come back and live for herself a little. Who are you picking and why?

[52:06] Luke Bernier: I'm picking Old Deuteronomy himself, because he's been at the forefront of this tribe for so long. I was thinking about this today. And I've had different thoughts at different times, but that's what I'm feeling today.

[52:18] Ibn Snell: Okay.

[52:19] Luke Bernier: It's Old Deuteronomy himself. Why not demonstrate the relinquishment of power? It's his time. I like it.

[52:26] Ibn Snell: I think, I think I have to pick Jenny, because of, because of Mungo's relationship.

[52:33] Luke Bernier: Sucking up to her right there.

[52:35] Ibn Snell: I have to. And I think I, by the end of the story, I do feel like maybe I, we've connected a bit more by the end, that I would feel confident to pick her. But reluctantly, I choose Jenny.

[52:50] Luke Bernier: Yeah, actually, we are on the same page there.

[52:52] Ibn Snell: Okay.

[52:52] Luke Bernier: Yeah, we've, we've talked about it a little bit. And even when we sneak up to Old Deuteronomy, at the end of like, he's gonna make the choice for like, take Jenny. And it is a con, I think we nailed it on the head. Because I don't think, no, the Jellicle choice is a moment of reverence. It's like, it's like such a thing, an important part of this tribe. But I don't know that these two idiots fully grasp it.

[53:14] Ibn Snell: Yeah, yeah. They're just like, yeah, let's do Gus.

[53:19] Luke Bernier: You're picking Gus?

[53:20] Ibn Snell: Yes.

[53:20] Luke Bernier: I love it. Okay.

[53:23] Ibn Snell: But yes, like, I know, like, when Gus bow after his song, I know like, oh, it's Gus.

[53:30] Luke Bernier: Okay.

[53:31] Ibn Snell: Okay, thought about this. I like that it's Grizabella. But I also think she's especially in the revival version, she's definitely too young to die. So Gus makes the most sense in that respect. But he hasn't like gone through it as much as Grizabella has, and like come out on top.

[53:56] Luke Bernier: Well, she, in the end, she comes out on top. Not yet. But so I guess Gus.

[54:02] Ibn Snell: Okay, love it.

[54:04] Luke Bernier: Gus, yeah.

[54:04] Ibn Snell: Team Gus.

[54:05] Luke Bernier: Team Gus. I, I'm like smiling, all of Gus. And I don't have many moments with Gus. But I do think that like, Bom knows Gus from when she was a kid. And like, she went to see his shows when he was acting with Irving and all that. I've always been Team Gus. I've been Team Gus from like, day one. And then, so I have a theory, I think it should have been Gus this year. And that everyone else was ready for it to be Gus this year before Grizzy Girl walked in and took it. And then I think that the next year, it's going to be Jelly.

[54:43] Luke Bernier: Definitely Gus.

[54:44] Ibn Snell: It's been Gus.

[54:45] Luke Bernier: Yeah, I think probably like every, like, most of the other people that you've interviewed, you know, over the 100 episodes, you've probably heard, oh, it's just Grizz because that is how the story is structured. It doesn't necessarily make the most sense. But I would yeah, I would definitely say Gus. And especially like last night, like when she's singing Memory, and like, it was, you know, my first time doing Gus. And I remembered like, what Jeremy said that Chris said about like, how Gus like, this is his year, and he doesn't get picked. And then he crawls off stage. And then he just dies. Yeah. It's like, like, yeah, super dark. That's like, he's not gonna make it for next year. And so I think that there's not to not to minimize, you know, the plot that is in the show, but I feel like we could just be nice to Grizz. I don't know that she necessarily needs like a brand new start.

[55:39] Luke Bernier: I know this is controversial for you. But I think it has to be Grizabella.

[55:42] Ibn Snell: I think it has to be Grizabella.

[55:43] Luke Bernier: You're bringing her now. So now I understand why.

[55:45] Ibn Snell: Oh, no, yeah, now I feel like I have to. But no, I think, because here's the thing, we see her in Memory, she falls to the ground, she's near death right now. And I know you're all about Gus. And so I get that he's also near death. But she's kind of telling us, I don't even have another day left in me. Like, when she's walking after she sings before she's been touched, like, she's like, got her foot, not even her foot in the grave. She's got, she's going to the grave. Yeah. So I think it's like, now or never. And so while it's bittersweet, because like, we all we all understand that we were wrong now. And like, we want to accept you. It's also like, well, we got to bring you up and not just die on the side of the street.

[56:23] Ibn Snell: I will say as Team Gus is, I think the most logical argument. My initial argument was to bring you two together, was to bring Tugger and Mustafi together. Because we brought Deuteronomy back. I have it because I view this as a singing competition. And the X Factor has a history of tying together two individual shows and make them a One Direction or a Fifth Harmony. So I took the two performances that I thought were super fun, that would make a really good combination. Clearly, there's the personalities have some similarities. And let's boy band you two together. And we'll send you up together.

[56:59] Luke Bernier: Okay, it's me.

[57:03] Ibn Snell: Okay, okay.

[57:05] Luke Bernier: Has to be Grisabella.

[57:06] Ibn Snell: You're still picking Grisabella.

[57:07] Luke Bernier: I have to pick Gris.

[57:09] Ibn Snell: You sounded like you had some hesitations. You're thinking maybe somebody else.

[57:12] Luke Bernier: There are some others that I love, but like...

[57:17] Ibn Snell: This is my chance to convince you otherwise. This is what I'm here for.

[57:20] Luke Bernier: Okay, fine. Like my other, okay, I have two other cats that I just love, love, love. Because I also just love their songs. Maybe that's why. If I could, it would totally also be maybe like Bomb. Or like Rum Tum Tugger, maybe. Or Mistoffelees. It's like a three split tie. Does that count?

[57:38] Ibn Snell: Yeah.

[57:42] Luke Bernier: So I think there's like with the crime game, there's a lot of opportunity to kind of say the, who else could we recruit for that? I think the group that as I've thought about who would be the most valuable for you and Macavity are the twins.

[57:55] Ibn Snell: Oh, yeah.

[57:56] Luke Bernier: And so...

[57:56] Ibn Snell: We love them.

[57:57] Luke Bernier: Yeah, we love them. Well, I'm curious. Well, maybe you play this already. So maybe you can tell me if you do. But what I think there's and now that I know that there's a journey of where you're going to say, I'm part of the gang and I'm not, is in the beginning, I want you to like, are you trying to recruit them to be almost you're an asset? Because they know everything that's going to happen at a time. They'd be super valuable for you in that. And then as you get later on, you're like, I don't want anything to do with it. Like, we're now not part of this game. You're trying to like warn them like, hey, I know I kind of brought you in. But now I need to get you out. Does that think that'll work?

[58:28] Luke Bernier: Yeah. I know that you're like an expert on cats.

[58:30] Ibn Snell: Like I've even heard a quote that you're in too deep.

[58:33] Luke Bernier: Way too deep.

[58:35] Ibn Snell: This is actually a very doable task.

[58:36] Luke Bernier: Do you realize how much we are close to them staging wise?

[58:39] Ibn Snell: No.

[58:40] Luke Bernier: We interact with the twins a lot.

[58:41] Ibn Snell: I haven't seen the show on stage since 2017.

[58:44] Luke Bernier: Great.

[58:44] Ibn Snell: I started the podcast in 2019. So all of this is me watching either 1998 movie or soaking in 99 episodes of people telling me different things and trying to remember what I saw the two times I've seen it on stage. And I mean, obviously, every group of people has their own interpretation you have to as an artist. Otherwise, it's just like, wow, you're just doing a pale imitation of that. But at least with this group of people, we've kind of talked about how the twins and Mungo Rump are like foil characters, because we're all in the like teen area, which is hard to say, because you're like, aren't they like thousands of years old? But like, well, we have like where they're like the better behaved. They're the better behaved version of us. Especially since everyone's like, oh, are those also twins? These two. But yeah, we are near them a lot. And I cannot wait to influence them.

[59:36] Luke Bernier: I know me too.

[59:37] Ibn Snell: So this goes back to I am in too deep that I had no idea where you're staged with them. Today. That's what I want to see is when you have some interactions with twins. It's like, hey, come with me. Be part of it. Like this is gonna work.

[59:48] Luke Bernier: I can't wait to tell them that that's what's happening.

[59:50] Ibn Snell: Yeah, I know. But then I also think that since you have those moments where you're like, oh, I'm out now. The end is like, you gotta give them warning. Like, hey, don't like I know I was trying to recruit you before, but we're done with this con. We're on to the next thing. Come with us over there.

[1:00:04] Luke Bernier: Yeah.

[1:00:05] Ibn Snell: Wow.

[1:00:06] Luke Bernier: I love that so much.

[1:00:09] Ibn Snell: Yeah. Talk to you tomorrow and see if it worked or didn't work.

[1:00:11] Luke Bernier: Yeah. Can't wait.

[1:00:11] Ibn Snell: Awesome.

[1:00:13] Luke Bernier: Okay. So here's the thing. We got a lot we added to the show. All right. Clearly, you're gonna have to bring in the day. But the one thing I want you to try to take on stage. And I think, you know, as we watch the show, I think part of this is gonna be the fun of getting to hear, you know, this actually working out is I want to go back to that boy band.

[1:00:27] Ibn Snell: Okay.

[1:00:27] Luke Bernier: So I think I want to have it. And I know you kind of sing each other songs. You have moments where you kind of are definitely interacting on stage. I want you to have in that moment, the like, aha moment, the recognition of like, we could make the best boy band if we did this. So when you're getting ready to kind of do your numbers being like, we should be doing this together. So I think that's the moment I'm curious to see. Does that work tonight?

[1:00:46] Ibn Snell: And we definitely have so many moments where we're like intertwined and connected that we could definitely play off of it.

[1:00:51] Luke Bernier: I got that.

[1:00:52] Ibn Snell: I already have ideas.

[1:00:54] Luke Bernier: The wheels are already spinning. So one thing that there is a debate about with Victoria is could Grizabella potentially be your mom and that she abandoned you and then they come back and that's actually where the relationship comes back. So I would be curious tonight when you play and you have your, you know, you're going on is when you see Grizabella, you have the realization that that was your mother. And does that work or not work? And we'll ask you tomorrow, if you think that that theory holds when you're on stage of thought about it, mom could have been or no, not at all.

[1:01:26] Luke Bernier: Yeah, I would try that.

[1:01:28] Ibn Snell: Okay. Yeah. We're going to be sitting right over there and we're going to watch and when she comes out, I want to be like, I want you to have the either mom kind of thought or you have that and it's like, nah, it didn't work.

[1:01:38] Luke Bernier: Okay. Here's my idea for you all tonight. I think one is I love the idea of potentially having Grisby mom, but my other idea would make you not sisters. So there's a ton of fan fiction and pictures about Tugger Mistoffelees, but there's not a lot about bomb and Demeter. I think there's a potential for that to be a relationship and not a sister or friend.

[1:02:06] Ibn Snell: I've pondered it before.

[1:02:07] Luke Bernier: I've definitely pondered that before and I think it makes it, it tracks.

[1:02:11] Ibn Snell: Okay. So tonight when you're performing, you know, are there moments where you can be like, maybe this is us tonight.

[1:02:19] Luke Bernier: There, there can be a lot of moments like that.

[1:02:21] Ibn Snell: Yeah, absolutely.

[1:02:22] Luke Bernier: Absolutely.

[1:02:23] Ibn Snell: Yeah. I'm done.

[1:02:26] Luke Bernier: Okay. So Jenny is, as you've mentioned, his mom has, has a bunch of the kittens, but she's very much the caregiver and I don't think that there's a lot of opportunity that Jenny thinks for herself.

[1:02:37] Ibn Snell: Yeah.

[1:02:38] Luke Bernier: So I think there's an opportunity for you to have a moment or two tonight where it's like, maybe I should have thought for myself and I originally thought that maybe that's when the cavity comes out. Like, you know what I've always taken care of. I'm protecting with, but maybe it's my time to have the bad boy and kind of like go down that route of like, you know what, let's go have a fun night and let's ignore it. So does that something that you think could track? Could you play that tonight?

[1:03:00] Ibn Snell: Definitely. And I think, I think there is to an extent where Jenny, and this is something that I've sort of battled within myself because I am the type of person to be like, wow, let's have fun all the time. Like that's me as a human being. And that's something I've actually had to subdue more with Jenny. And I think you'll see tonight that there are some places where I do that and I'll try to show you that.

[1:03:25] Luke Bernier: I think I want to go back to your original Christmas point. So since you went on as Peter and then you're going on as Skimball and you've got this kind of Christmas, you know, bell, I, my Peter thought was that he's actually St. Peter.

[1:03:40] Ibn Snell: Oh, really?

[1:03:41] Luke Bernier: And then when you said, hey, the opening is actually not part of it. That even adds more layers to that, that really he's there because there's also Baby Grizz in the opening number. So I think Peter, St. Peter, Baby Grizz is what I've been calling the ghost of Cat's Mist Pass. They're coming back. They're getting this. But I want you tonight when you're doing that in the opening number, you're having that moment and you see Peter and Baby Grizz having that like, oh, this is the Christmas story I've got going on. Like there's that recognition.

[1:04:09] Erica Cianciulli: We're here for day two. We're back and we gave a lot of theories yesterday. So I want to hear from all of you. One, did any of them work? When you heard your theories, you got to play them yesterday. Did they land? Did they make sense? Did they not make sense? And then two, since you didn't get to all hear each other's theories, did you notice anybody else's that I might have teased? So who wants to go first? I'll maybe just pass the mic around.

[1:05:09] Yuka Notsuka: Okay. I actually think that the Tugger theory that Luke brought up is very much working because I'm now very much like mapping out my first entrance in my head and my reactions with Tugger and how standoff he is, where he doesn't even like to make eye contact with me where I'm like, oh, this totally might have happened. This totally might have happened. But Luke?

[1:05:38] Luke Bernier: Yeah. Hey, look, I'm glad I told you that because honestly, it's been going on in my head. And so I'm glad that I brought it to the forefront of all of at least the two of our heads. So Tugger Bella is going strong. But in terms of the one you gave for Tugger and Mistel, it really helped me just, again, just like define some more things in the show last night, which was just fun. You know, we're forming our boy band. There were some moments I noticed.

[1:06:16] Brian Craig Nelson: Did you notice it? Okay.

[1:06:18] Luke Bernier: There were moments I noticed that you guys gave like little handshakes or high fives and then some looks.

[1:06:24] Taryn Smithson: Yeah.

[1:06:25] Luke Bernier: They're ready.

[1:06:26] Erica Cianciulli: Oh, good. I love that. Yeah, we definitely did an exuberant amount last night, which was good. It was fun.

[1:06:32] Taryn Smithson: Who else has thoughts?

[1:06:34] Megan Arseneau: Mine didn't work. Mine was like that I was supposed to sort of be like into Macavity as like a bad boy type of thing. I tried it once and was immediately like, no, no, Jenny wouldn't do that. Jenny wouldn't do that. But you don't want to be my friend. But no, for sure not. But I do feel like it inspired me to make other different choices throughout the night. I made that I was into Bombay Arena the whole night and Erica noticed and came up to me and was like, so can we talk about like what you talked to him about? Because I felt like a very different vibe, a very different energy from you. So that was really fun because I like had that moment where I tried it and was like, no, I don't like this. And then I immediately was like, OK, but I'll pick someone else to be into. So I picked a separate bad boy and it was Erica Cianciulli. And it was really fun.

[1:07:52] Yuka Notsuka: I would like to add that instead of Jenny Any Dots, it could be Jenny Any Bomb.

[1:07:57] Taryn Smithson: Thank you.

[1:07:58] Yuka Notsuka: Take that, Kat's Tumblr.

[1:08:03] Brian Craig Nelson: I think like the flavoring of your theory for us, like wanting to like recruit the twins. That's what we had, recruit the twins to our crime syndicate. It was there in how we viewed them and in our interactions referencing them. But it was actually very hard to break their facade because they are like stoic wolves. So I do not think that they joined us.

[1:08:28] Luke Bernier: And also, I feel like act one, there's no time. It's a five, six, seven, eight. You are moving. So act two, we're like, all right, we've got three numbers to recruit these two.

[1:08:38] Erica Cianciulli: That's the theater, Kat, though. I saw you trying.

[1:08:41] Brian Craig Nelson: We were trying, but they have their walls up. In a good way.

[1:08:46] Taryn Smithson: Our corcopath is super like so warm and loving. So anytime I was like, he was going with it. Like he was super sweet and like happy. And I don't think he knew what I was going to ask him for. So yeah, we tried.

[1:09:01] Luke Bernier: We tried. You have more shows to recruit.

[1:09:03] Megan Arseneau: Yeah, but it definitely influenced how we would like scope them out. And how we felt about every time a cavity was either around or all the scares really came.

[1:09:15] Erica Cianciulli: And you said if we noticed other people's, I admit that I asked other people because I was interested, but I did see Yuka's journey as Victoria, especially in approaching Grizabella.

[1:09:26] Yuka Notsuka: Maybe she needs to talk.

[1:09:28] Erica Cianciulli: What was it?

[1:09:29] Yuka Notsuka: So mine was like if Grizabella is like my mom. Yeah. So and that was really interesting and it worked. And give me more curiosity to like, why I feel so connected with her. And then, yeah, like it was really interesting. And like, I made like new choices and I liked it and I'm glad you see it. Like, because it's subtle, like, you know, like.

[1:09:52] Erica Cianciulli: So on behalf of Grizabella the Glamour Cat, I apologize for abandoning her.

[1:09:57] Taryn Smithson: That's interesting, right? Yeah.

[1:10:02] Luke Bernier: Um, I was nervous because I haven't been on for Demeter in a while. So I was like, I got to focus. But actually, our circumstance like added and like made sense and motivated like so many moments. I don't know if you noticed, but it was like.

[1:10:18] Megan Arseneau: I noticed. I'm curious if anybody else noticed.

[1:10:21] Brian Craig Nelson: That we were lovers.

[1:10:23] Taryn Smithson: I just thought about something between you and I.

[1:10:25] Luke Bernier: Oh.

[1:10:26] Brian Craig Nelson: I thought about what if we were possibly sisters? Which is why like.

[1:10:29] Taryn Smithson: Well, I was thinking of you as my mother.

[1:10:31] Brian Craig Nelson: Oh.

[1:10:32] Taryn Smithson: But maybe.

[1:10:33] Brian Craig Nelson: Because like, you know how like Grizabella is very much. Because you know how like Chrissy Cartwright in rehearsals will always be like a big kind of like blueprint for the newer Grizabella that is still very much like youthful and glamour-esque. Like is very much still like is comes from like Amy Winehouse, how like she's like 27, but still so like worn down. So I'm wondering, it's just like, what if like we're very much close in age? I just because of life and the path I chose, I just have aged so rapidly that like you would never know that we were maybe close in age or we're siblings.

[1:11:04] Taryn Smithson: I like that.

[1:11:05] Brian Craig Nelson: Because I think about the yearning that like I always have yearning moments with you in the ball. Um, not even in the opening, but like right before, like right before Little Memory and Big Memory where it's just like, it's always like, I remember Kim and Chrissy always going like, you're having this yearning and reaching with Bomb where I'm like, sister, maybe? I just thought about that.

[1:11:23] Taryn Smithson: Yeah.

[1:11:24] Brian Craig Nelson: Because it's like, I think about my relationship with Bomb and how I talk about how Bomb is maybe my friend who like was like, okay, stay here. I guess I'll raise your kids. And then maybe, I don't know, maybe my sister.

[1:11:34] Taryn Smithson: Oh, I don't think about that today.

[1:11:36] Brian Craig Nelson: There you go.

[1:11:37] Taryn Smithson: I like that. Um, I think Erica would agree though, that it like totally worked. And I think the only downfall, I was a little too into it. Erica's so hot. I was neglecting Monk a little bit and which is like, I'm supposed to be in love with Monk.

[1:11:55] Megan Arseneau: I will say, I got a little neglected from Bomb yesterday.

[1:11:59] Brian Craig Nelson: I actually noticed that and I thought like, what did you tell them to do?

[1:12:02] Taryn Smithson: We were really into each other last night.

[1:12:04] Luke Bernier: Wait, I retract that you're my sister because Monk is my son.

[1:12:08] Brian Craig Nelson: I think that would be worth it.

[1:12:10] Taryn Smithson: I think that's a lie. Erica was also taken aback then when I started in on her.

[1:12:14] Luke Bernier: Because there's this very strange love triangle happening that I don't think has ever happened before last night.

[1:12:21] Taryn Smithson: Yeah.

[1:12:22] Brian Craig Nelson: Intriguing forever.

[1:12:23] Taryn Smithson: It was so fun. It was very fun.

[1:12:26] John Zamborsky: Zam, you had a wild one.

[1:12:29] Luke Bernier: I had a hard one. I'm going to be honest. So mine is that I always like to view the prologue as like not really like being the first like chronological thing. I kind of like view it by itself. And then like we start. And so we talked about I think there's like a lot of like Skimbleshanks the Christmas cat stuff on Tumblr. And there's like this whole like backstory of like he was on the train one day and Santa came to visit on Christmas and gifted him a little silver bell for Christmas. And then that's why he like has such literally.

[1:13:01] Brian Craig Nelson: Yes.

[1:13:02] Luke Bernier: And then that's why he wears the little bell around his neck during the feature is because he like cherishes that. And that's why he like has a love for the trains and stuff.

[1:13:10] Taryn Smithson: Think about how the theme of your song is in the moments of happiness going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

[1:13:19] Luke Bernier: I didn't I didn't even know that.

[1:13:21] Brian Craig Nelson: Yes, it's in a moment of happiness of many generations.

[1:13:24] Taryn Smithson: Do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

[1:13:26] Luke Bernier: Nice.

[1:13:27] Brian Craig Nelson: I mean, I think that's usually when I'm crunching my cough drop.

[1:13:29] Taryn Smithson: Yeah.

[1:13:30] Luke Bernier: Unfortunately.

[1:13:31] Brian Craig Nelson: Unfortunately.

[1:13:34] Luke Bernier: But it's like it's like it's like bells. I'll have to I'll have to keep my my ears peeled for that. But we talked about Peter being St. Peter and Grizabella kind of being like the ghost of Christmas past. We were talking about a Christmas carol. So that one, I wouldn't say that that I felt it like working, but I definitely got a good laugh out of it. When I when I looked at you during the strut circle, I was just like, oh, my word.

[1:14:03] Taryn Smithson: Yeah.

[1:14:04] Luke Bernier: That's why I was doing a little extra last night. But I was super aware of like the Tugger relationship because I remember you saying that that was going to be the one that that's the one that you came in with talking about. And maybe it's just because we're roommates and obviously I get along really well. But there was like this really cute moment right before my manners vague and aloof where like I'm like they're trying to do something before I have a reason to go grab the flower pot. And Luke gave me like this nice little smirk. And I felt like the first I felt like that the arc of like redemption and skimball deciding to like, you know, Tugger isn't too bad. You know, I just felt that that arc that we sort of talked about yesterday and that was really fun.

[1:14:41] Taryn Smithson: Yeah.

[1:14:42] Luke Bernier: And I felt quite a lot of pride wearing that bell during that feature.

[1:14:47] Brian Craig Nelson: Yeah.

[1:14:48] Luke Bernier: And I'm sorry for shining the light in your eyes, even though I said I wouldn't.

[1:14:52] Erica Cianciulli: This was amazing. I love that. We added a love triangle that didn't exist. We added some other theories. You pick new one. We had a Christmas Carol. This is this is what I was here for. A hundred episodes. My goal was to slowly loosely influence the show. And I feel like I'm working my way towards that.

[1:15:11] Megan Arseneau: More than loosely.

[1:15:12] Erica Cianciulli: Loosely.

[1:15:13] Luke Bernier: Yeah.

[1:15:14] Erica Cianciulli: Pretty influenced.

[1:15:15] John Zamborsky: I'm influencing the show.

[1:15:16] Erica Cianciulli: Well, thank you all. This was absolutely a blast. We had so much fun watching and seeing those moments, and I'm glad to hear that you all enjoyed playing them and hope you can bring them to future cities, too.

[1:15:27] Cast: Absolutely.

[1:15:28] Cast: Thank you.

[1:15:29] Cast: Awesome.

[1:15:32] Dominic Fortunato: Hi, my name is Dominic Fortunato. I play Pounceville, and I don't think the wrong cat died.

[1:15:37] Sam Bellow: Hi, my name is Sam Bellow. I play Sillabove, and I do believe that the wrong cat died.

[1:15:42] Brendan Moran: Hi, my name is Brendan Moran, and I play Tumble Brutus, and I think the wrong cat died.

[1:15:48] John Zamborsky: Hi, my name is John Zamborsky, and I do think that the wrong cat died.

[1:15:53] Sammy Fossum: Hi, I'm Sammy Fossum. I play Alonzo, and I believe the wrong cat died.

[1:15:57] Ellie Chancellor: Hi, my name is Ellie. I'm a swing, but I'm on for Bombay Arena today, and I do think the wrong cat died.

[1:16:03] Megan Arseneau: Hi, I'm Megan. I'm a swing. I'm Demeter today, and I believe the wrong cat died.

[1:16:09] Taryn Smithson: Hi, I'm Taryn. I play Rumpelteazer, and I believe the wrong cat died.

[1:16:13] Marissa: Hi, I'm Marissa. I'm a swing, and today I'm Victoria, and I do not believe that the wrong cat died.

[1:16:19] Allison: Hi, I'm Allison. I play Jelly Lorem, and I believe the wrong cat died.

[1:16:22] Michelle E. Carter: Hi, I'm Michelle E. Carter. I play Jenny Annie Dots, and I know the wrong cat died.

[1:16:30] Mike Abrams: Thank you for listening to this historic 100th episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catastrophe. Be sure to check out the video at bpn.fm slash TWCD100 for The Wrong Cat Died 100th. And again, thank you to the Cats team, the National Theater, and everyone that we worked with over the weekend. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at thewrongcatdied, or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.