This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the cat satirphy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams. And today we have another amazing guest. He's been in multiple international productions of Cats performing as Pouncival, Corporate Cat, and Skimbleshanks. So welcome, Darren Tyler. Thank you for joining me.

[0:30] Darren Tyler: Thanks for having me. I'm excited to have you here. This interaction started with you saying, I thought Skimbleshanks should be picked for two plus years, three plus years. And so I always love going in thinking, all right, I got someone on my side to start. So I'm excited to have you come in and give the Skimbleshanks take and then the Darren take.

[0:46] Darren Tyler: Yeah. Well, I mean, Skimbleshanks builds a bloody train every night. He builds a train. A train. What's Cruise do? 12 minutes. So let's start.

[0:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, it's true. Let's start in the beginning. I always love to hear about your experience kind of learning about the show. So you started on tour in 2003-ish. So you would have had the '98 movie potentially at your disposal. But what was your first introduction to Cats?

[1:16] Darren Tyler: So I'm aging myself here, but I saw the original Australian production. I'm in Melbourne. It started in Sydney in 1985, and it came to Melbourne in 1987. So at that time, my whole family would go see shows. And I've got two older sisters and my dad's now passed, my mom and dad, but aunties and uncles, cousins, like there would be heaps of it. And we went to, I would have been 11. We went to see the show and I was mesmerized. I ate it up. I was like, oh my God, there are cats coming at me. And I was like, oh, we're going to be going to see this over and over again. It's going to be awesome. And at the end of the show, 40 of my family all hated it, hated it. My dad hated it so much that he said he was never going to go see a show again.

And he didn't until like my first show in 1998. But I just loved it. It was the first show I ever auditioned for when I was 16. And I auditioned and kept auditioning and I finally got it. But funnily enough, the time I got it, I was in Singapore doing the musical Oliver. And the associate choreographer of Oliver is Jeffrey Garrett, who played Skimbleshanks in the 1998 video. And when he heard that I was auditioning, he said, great, let's work on the choreo. So he worked on the choreo with me and that's the time I got the show.

[2:57] Mike Abrams: That's so fascinating to hear. I have two kind of follow-up questions and I'll hold the segment. I want to hear more about your family hating it because I think it's such a polarizing thing.

[3:01] Darren Tyler: No, no, no, not hating it. Hating it.

[3:07] Mike Abrams: But have you asked them why? Because I've yet to find anybody who's really hated it for a real reason besides it just being like, eh, it wasn't my thing.

[3:13] Darren Tyler: Yeah, I just think, and you hear it a lot, the story, it's not too involved. But as a kid, I ate that up. I got what was happening. I knew it was, I guess, simple enough for a kid to go, oh, great, they're coming together. Then they're going to pick who's going to get this extra life and a few cats are going to perform to see which one gets that life. So I was like, this is awesome to me. I think they just thought it was a bit pointless. But then when I did the show in Australia, I'm like, you're all coming. I don't care if you don't like it or not. And they had a ball. They loved it.

[3:58] Mike Abrams: Okay, so that was going to be my next question was, now they have to come see you, right? They can't ignore you. And did they turn? Was it because of you? Or was it because they have a different appreciation later?

[4:04] Darren Tyler: Look, I think a bit of both. Although I have been in shows where they've been going nuts. I did Miss Saigon. And again, a whole heap of family came and they're like, it's so depressing. I'm like, yeah, it is depressing. Based on the Vietnam War, it's like, we wanted more show numbers. Get over yourself. But I think because they knew how much I loved it, how much I worked hard to get into it. And I guess, you know, telling them a bit more about what was going on and what to look for and who to look at. And don't just look at the story, but look at individual cats and see their trajectory throughout. That may not be, they may not get a song or they may not get a solo, but every cat has a reason for being there. And they've all got a personality. And that's what I found amazing with it.

[4:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I mean, you were, at one point, the twins. And so the twins kind of have this eerie moment where they kind of catch it before. And that's something that I never picked up on until someone said it. And then as I watched it again, it was like, oh, wow, they really do have the first turn or the first dance number in these pieces. So that's probably a part that your family never picked up on, I'm sure, until you told them on it.

[5:21] Darren Tyler: No. And you know what? The first time I was, and I had seen Cats, I think maybe four times before I got into it. And I really didn't even know who the twins were until before the production, before I got into it, there was an Australian tent tour. And I saw that and a friend of mine was Corrupted Cat. And so I watched him and I'm like, wow, they're crazy. And it was so fun to play because they are, all the other cats are a little bit wary of them because they're weird. They sense things that other cats don't. They're a little bit, like they would just stare at you much longer than what you'd feel comfortable. And they would move together. And so I had two great tantamiles. One was Siobhan Ginty, who was a close friend of mine, and another one, Siobhan Lacton, who was Castle Scroy.

And both of us, like both couples, we would just, we loved trying to make it work that we were just one. And that's eerie as well. It's different to Mungo and Rump, who they're always together, but they're individual. Corrie and Tant, they're one.

[6:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah. My other question about seeing it at 11 is you're kind of right before you're going to recognize probably a lot of the sexual nature of the show. So do you remember? Yeah. Was it just completely over your head or did you pick up on... I mean, there's some that's obvious, I think, but there's a lot that's probably... You're missing the Demeter storyline probably at that point. You're missing a lot of the ball pieces too.

[6:56] Darren Tyler: Yeah. Like, yes. I just thought Vicky was put into a nice lift and everyone's going to sleep. And you come and do rehearsals and you're like, well, what? But yeah, I did. But I was also, you know, I was 11, so I was kind of becoming a little bit more aware of bodies and everything. So I thought it was hot. Like I did think it was hot, but I didn't know how obvious. Well, I guess not obvious for some, but yeah, there was definitely a lot of... And Kat, we would call it, we... Joanne Robinson was our associate and she had put on... She had worked on the original in London, one of Gillian's assistants. She had put on all the Australasian productions up until the last one in 2015. I don't think she was done that.

I think she's going to retire from it, but she was amazing. And she was like, you know, they are sexual, they are slinky, they're sexy, and trying to find that in your body when you're used to being like this strong dancer. And yeah, you do do dances that are a bit slinky and sexy, but not this way. This was animalistic. This was different. And I loved all that. But I didn't get that when I watched the replay. I just went, these guys are amazing. Yeah, they're just dancing. They're just out there dancing. It's fine. Yeah, they're dancing and they're cats.

[8:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So let's go into your production. The first one was the South Korea tent tour. So this was in 2003 and you were Pouncival. This is the tent tour that the tent essentially that you saw came with you to South Korea, right?

[8:31] Darren Tyler: That's correct. So when I was in Australia, it was called Cats Goes to the Circus, and they incorporated circus things. They had a cloud swing. They had cats walking on a tightrope. And even though it kind of fit with the playfulness of cats, I thought when I saw it, it distracted from like the choreographer in the Angelica Ball, which like I love Jillian Lim's choreography. And I found when all the good parts are happening, I was looking up at someone swinging on a cloud swing. And I was like, so that was taken away when we did the South Korea tour. It was the same setup. The stage was the same, except our audience came around the sides of the stage as well. And we had these catwalk ramps that would go out into the audience either side of the stage that had trampolines in them that would open up.

So when we came out of Siamese, because we did, back then Growl Tigers number was still going, we would jump onto the stage from the tramp. So, but yeah, it was the same tent. It was an experience that I don't need to live again. Like I love the show, but Korea is either really hot or it's freezing cold. And, you know, we could crawl from the back of the set, like where our change rooms and our warmup area was, we could crawl under the stage to get to the front to like the tubes and everything. But you were, there was one time that sewerage had broken and we were crawling over sewerage to get to our spot. And then, you know, in the winter it would snow and, you know, we're in a lycra unitard and yak hair for wigs, we'd be these caticles.

It was cold. You'd sweat either way. Like with that show, you just sweat either way. So it was interesting. It was, and I think in those sort of tours, and with Cats especially, everyone, and I'm not trying to downplay other casts that I've been in shows with, but with Cats, you are in your element. You're amongst other performers who are at their peak because you kind of have to be in that show. So, and you're all experiencing the same thing. So we really bonded. It was probably the show that I've bonded the most with Cats in the past.

[11:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you say that because it's like, it feels like it's a show where every cast I've talked to, everybody that's in a production, one is they become, if they weren't obsessed with it before, they generally have like, at least for the most part, become a fan of the experience and the show. But also it seems like you have to become really close to your castmates because you're also rolling around on each other for the whole ball. So it's like, everyone just seems like everyone's super good friends. I don't know if that's always the way that happens. I mean, I always think back on sports and you become pretty good friends with a lot of your teammates when you play sports, but there's also probably one or two that you just play the sport with, but you don't get along with, but you just figure it out.

[11:51] Darren Tyler: It doesn't seem like that happens in Cats. I would assume it does in theater.

[11:56] Darren Tyler: Especially when you're on tour, because in another country, you're living in the same hotel as the cast. So you're seeing them all the time. You get one day off a week and basically those days, because you're in a foreign country, you're hanging out with those people anyway. And yeah, it's great. And it is a family. So you may have...

[12:16] Darren Tyler: I played Pouncival in the South Korea Tent Tour of CATS and Skimbleshanks on the Australia/Asia Tour.

[12:40] Darren Tyler: It was a unique experience, to say the least. You were amongst other performers at their peak because you had to be to be in this show.

[13:08] Darren Tyler: I remember my family hated the show when they first saw it. They just didn't get it.

[13:28] Darren Tyler: But then, as I got involved, I started to understand the magic of it all.

[13:48] Darren Tyler: In Korea, we had to crawl around sewage, which was quite an experience.

[14:08] Darren Tyler: The conditions were challenging, but it brought us closer as a cast.

[14:28] Darren Tyler: I also have a fun story about how the director got us to hiss at Grizabella.

[14:56] Darren Tyler: It was all about creating that tension and drama on stage.

[15:16] Darren Tyler: We had to really embody our characters, and that included some playful interactions.

[15:36] Darren Tyler: Comparing the cats to characters from Sex And The City was something we did a lot.

[15:56] Darren Tyler: You could see the personalities of the cats reflected in those characters.

[16:06] Darren Tyler: For example, I always thought of Skimbleshanks as a bit of a Miranda.

[16:26] Darren Tyler: He’s organized, a bit uptight, but ultimately cares about everyone.

[16:46] Darren Tyler: Then you have someone like Rum Tum Tugger, who is definitely a bit of a Carrie.

[17:16] Darren Tyler: He’s all about the drama and the attention.

[17:36] Darren Tyler: It was fun to make those connections and see how they fit.

[18:04] Darren Tyler: Each cat has its own unique traits that can be likened to those characters.

[18:34] Darren Tyler: It made rehearsals a lot more entertaining.

[18:54] Darren Tyler: We would joke around and assign roles based on those comparisons.

[19:14] Darren Tyler: It really helped to lighten the mood during the intense rehearsals.

[19:34] Darren Tyler: The camaraderie we built was essential for the show.

[19:54] Darren Tyler: We were all in it together, and those moments of laughter helped us through.

[20:24] Darren Tyler: Performing in CATS is unlike anything else.

[20:54] Darren Tyler: The energy from the audience is palpable, and it drives you to give your best.

[21:14] Darren Tyler: Every performance felt like a new adventure.

[21:44] Darren Tyler: I loved being part of such a legendary show.

[22:04] Darren Tyler: It’s a unique experience that I will always cherish.

[22:24] Darren Tyler: The stories and memories I have from that time are priceless.

[22:44] Darren Tyler: I wouldn’t trade it for anything.

[23:04] Darren Tyler: It’s a journey that shaped me as a performer.

[23:24] Darren Tyler: And I’m grateful for every moment I spent in that role.

[23:44] Darren Tyler: CATS will always hold a special place in my heart.

[24:04] Darren Tyler: It’s a show that continues to resonate with audiences around the world.

[24:32] Darren Tyler: I was in the South Korea Tent Tour of CATS, and then I went on to play Skimbleshanks on the Australia/Asia Tour.

[25:03] Darren Tyler: It was a wild experience, especially in Korea. The conditions were quite challenging, to say the least.

[25:29] Darren Tyler: I remember we had to crawl around in what felt like sewage at times. It was definitely an adventure!

[25:57] Darren Tyler: My family, when they first saw the show, they were not fans at all. They were quite critical of it, which was surprising to me.

[26:22] Darren Tyler: But over time, they came to appreciate it more, especially once they saw how much it meant to me.

[26:52] Darren Tyler: One of the funnier moments was when the director got us all to hiss at Grizabella. It was a unique way to build that tension on stage.

[27:22] Darren Tyler: I think the cast was really at their peak during that time. You had to be at your best to be part of such a high-energy show.

[27:48] Darren Tyler: I often compare some of the cats to characters from Sex And The City. It's a fun way to think about their personalities.

[28:14] Darren Tyler: For instance, I see Skimbleshanks as a bit of a Mr. Big—always in control and a bit mysterious.

[28:40] Darren Tyler: Then you have Pouncival, who I played in Korea, and I think he has a bit of a Charlotte vibe—innocent and sweet but also a bit naive.

[28:55] Darren Tyler: It's interesting how those character traits can translate across different stories and shows.

[29:25] Darren Tyler: The camaraderie among the cast was incredible. We all had to rely on each other to make it through those tough performances.

[29:55] Darren Tyler: I think that bond really helped us create a memorable experience for the audience.

[30:21] Darren Tyler: There were moments when we would just laugh and support each other, especially during the more challenging scenes.

[30:51] Darren Tyler: It was a unique experience, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[31:21] Darren Tyler: The energy of the audience was something else, especially in Australia. They were so enthusiastic and engaged.

[31:51] Darren Tyler: It really made a difference in how we performed each night.

[32:21] Darren Tyler: I remember one night, the audience was so loud, we could barely hear ourselves on stage.

[32:51] Darren Tyler: Those are the moments that really stick with you as a performer.

[33:21] Darren Tyler: I think every show has its own magic, but CATS definitely has a special place in my heart.

[33:51] Darren Tyler: It's a show that challenges you and pushes you to be better every night.

[34:16] Darren Tyler: I feel lucky to have been a part of it and to have shared that experience with so many talented people.

[34:46] Darren Tyler: The stories we created together will always be cherished memories for me.

[35:16] Darren Tyler: I hope to continue sharing those stories and experiences with others who love the show as much as I do.

[35:46] Darren Tyler: It's all about the connections we make and the joy we bring to the audience.

[36:14] Darren Tyler: And that's what keeps me coming back to the stage, time and time again.

[36:44] Darren Tyler: CATS will always be a part of my journey as a performer.

[36:48] Darren Tyler: You were amongst other performers at their peak because you had to be to be in this show.

[37:18] Darren Tyler: I love Old Deuteronomy. I went on the tug of war once. Terrible. I was like the fifth emergency to go on, but we were desperate. I'm only 5'8". So when you put that big cowl and the wig on, my resident director, Stephen Morganty, said, you look like the butchest cat. Because I kind of look like this nugget of a thing. But you got to see Old Deuteronomy with Monk. So I love Old Deuteronomy. I mean, I love seeing Skimbles, but I did love Old Deuteronomy, I think.

[37:48] Darren Tyler: So this is my fun question. You got to do it in a circus tent, basically. Which cat do you think would be the best circus ringleader? Ringleader? Or yeah, like run the circus. Who would be best in charge?

[38:18] Darren Tyler: Ah, in charge. Well, this is stereotypical, but usually, you know, you'd see more in the movies that the ringleaders are all a bit dodgy. I think McCavity.

[38:48] Darren Tyler: Oh, interesting. I was thinking, maybe I think the personality too much.

[39:18] Darren Tyler: Yeah, I see where you're going with it. Okay. Yeah, he wouldn't pay the performers. They'd live in squalor, but he'd make all the money. So I'd say McCavity.

[39:48] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Okay, we got the important question here. I know you got to take, but I've argued at length. I don't think it's Grizabella. So who's your Angelica choice? And I want to know the Skimble answer, and I want to know the Darren answer.

[40:01] Darren Tyler: Skimble is Skimble. Like, we've got to say things in Skimble. But it's not him. It's not him. Look, I think it's Griz, but only for the reason that I think old Jude feels that he's lost control of the tribe. They're all very judgmental. All their numbers talk about themselves and about how good they are. And they need a bit of humility. And I think that's where he's brought Griz in. He's the one that's gone. I think this cat can change the mindset of this crowd of cats. So, you know, she may not be the most worthy, but I think she's the one that's going to teach us a lesson. And that's why, as I said, I think with Gus, like I can see why people say Gus because he's old and he's sweet. But he's, I think, locked in his memory of what a good life he has had.

And I think to take that away for him to start all over again, I think that's kind of cruel. Because he loves thinking about when he was Growl Tiger and when he fought Fire Flow Fiddle, the fiend from Lavelle. He loved all that and Dick Whittington's cat and all that. He loves all those memories. I think to take that away for him when he's so cared for is a bit mean. To give it to Griz, who, she's not part of the group anymore. She really isn't. And I think if I've heard on your podcast that you've said, you know, why can't she stay here now that she's been accepted? If I was Griz, I wouldn't want to, knowing that these people who now have accepted me are like, oh, you sang a sweet song. We will let you back in. I'd be like, screw you. I don't want to come back. I just wanted to make you see what creeps you all were. See ya. And go to the head of Sylvia.

[43:27] Mike Abrams: I mean, that's an interesting take because that was going to be my next question to you, which is I don't disagree with the lesson or the redemption arc. I think those are very real. And that's why the redemption arc, I think the redemption arc is she stays. She does get to kind of hang out. The lesson, like teaching lesson, I guess my question would be, does a choice have to be made every year? Because you could teach a lesson by not picking anybody.

[43:47] Darren Tyler: And I reckon if none of us turned around at the end of memory, there'd be no choice.

[43:51] Mike Abrams: No choice. Okay. So now I'm at the point where no choice is better than Grizabella.

[43:57] Darren Tyler: Yeah. Or he would have just said, screw you all. It's going to be Griz. And there'll be no ball next year.

[44:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I wonder if he's going to pick himself. So maybe that's a lesson.

[44:08] Darren Tyler: I don't think he can. I think he's like- I think he was born into it. I think he's- Could we treat him like royalty? And it's the same with Monk. I think Monk- I could be wrong, but I think one of Monk's words, three words was princely because I think he is part of that lineage. Does he want his time?

[44:31] Mike Abrams: What do you mean?

[44:32] Darren Tyler: I think my only argument- I agree that you could say Old Deuteronomy does this for eternity, but the way they portray Monk is that he is stepping up to do this at some point. He's being groomed to do it. And if he's being groomed to do it and Old Deuteronomy's never gone anywhere, it almost seems cruel.

[44:52] Darren Tyler: No, no, no. Old Deuteronomy's going to die.

[44:54] Mike Abrams: Okay. So he's just going to die one day. He's not going to go to-

[44:56] Darren Tyler: He will die.

[44:56] Mike Abrams: No Jellicle choice, no Heaviside Lair, just out and Monk takes over.

[45:00] Darren Tyler: Yeah, because I think where he's going- because he's on a higher plane to everyone else. I don't know if they do it in the new version, but at the start of Moments of Happiness, the start of Act Two, when- so everyone after we played in the audience would come back on stage and he'd start singing. And at certain points, you'd see the cats, they'd kind of- you could see kind of their bodies kind of moving around. And that was him sending messages to us through the floor and that, and we're sort of receiving it. And that's what happens when he made Corrie. Corrie could kind of lift his arm and then Tant put her paw into his paw and then she passes it on to Silabub who sings Moonlight. So he's above everyone else. So he's going to a higher plane wherever he is.

[46:00] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[46:00] Darren Tyler: Yeah. So, you know, he's ethereal, I think.

[46:06] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I like your- I've always liked the teaching lesson because I've gone back to, is he making a choice every year? Is it the same decision-making criteria every year? Is it kind of on a whim? And it sounds like this was a year based on, like, Grizabella. It's like, no, he's got to teach a lesson. He's got to have redemption. We've got to have this, like, acceptance piece back. But I still feel like it seems a little cruel to send her out after this, like, arc of bringing her back.

[46:27] Darren Tyler: What homeless woman hurt you in a previous life?

[46:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. It's also, too, it's like, you know, I said when I saw it recently, I was just like, ah, the Grizabella was so good. And I was like, why does your performance have to be so good? Because I've spent so long arguing against you. And then I get to hear you sing Memory, and I'm like, ah, that is so powerful and so well done.

[46:51] Darren Tyler: And they cast the Grizz quite young now, don't they?

[46:53] Mike Abrams: They do. And I think that's part of where-

[46:56] Darren Tyler: Yeah. And I think that's maybe where I, like, some of my also, like, they should stay comes from is because they're younger. And so it's like, it seems almost cool that she's had this, like, beat. I've called her, like, the bald Britney Spears age, where she's not that old. She's come back. She's now having this, like, let her have her resurgence.

[47:16] Darren Tyler: Well, the last production in Australia, they had a pop star here, Delta Woodrum, she played. So I know they had her young. They also had the rap Tugger in that production.

[47:28] Mike Abrams: Rap Tugger. By the time this one comes out, I have talked to one, and I have gotten all my questions answered, which I will tell you about.

[47:36] Darren Tyler: Oh, fantastic.

[47:37] Mike Abrams: Been trying for ages. Well, this has been so fun. I really appreciate you sharing your stories and theories. I love the Sex and the City. That's a great combination I hadn't thought about, which is fun, because now I've got another show to compare cats to.

[48:05] Darren Tyler: How can people stay in touch with you?

[48:07] Darren Tyler: I guess on Instagram, I'm at Darren underscore A underscore Tyler. It's very boring, I know. I'm not doing a show at the moment, but if and when I do, I'm kind of semi-retired at the dancing. I decided last year I was getting too old, but I still want to audition for shows. So you can see what I do on that sometimes.

[48:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah, amazing. Well, this has been amazing. So thank you so much for coming on.

[48:35] Darren Tyler: Thanks for having me. It's been a great, great time.

[48:37] Mike Abrams: And thanks, everyone else, for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown The Catastrophe. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at TheWrongCatDied, or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.