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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpn.fm to discover more.

[0:28] Mike Abrams: rocket dive, the podcast breakdown of the cast, atrophy, I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. You might have seen her perform as Rachel Green on the friends, the musical parody more recently, but before that, she was in the cats course, and then a swing cover in Grizabella and Joey lorm On the sixth national tour of cats. So welcome Carolyn Dicken, thank you for joining

[0:47] Mike Abrams: having me. I loved, loved, loved the friends musical. So I was so glad I got to go, and I cannot wait, because one of my favorite things to do is compare cats to different shows, and I've not done friends yet, so we will get there, because I think this one's great. This one will be super fun. But let's start with your history of cats at the beginning. Like, when did you first see it? Were you obsessed with the 1998 movie? Like, what was your introduction to

[1:15] Speaker 2: the show? Yeah, this was like, this is a great question. I sort of, I feel like I encountered cats as a young kid, and then forgot about cats entirely. And then the audition came my way, and all of a sudden it was like I was sucked back into the world when the cats and now it, you know, kind of changed everything. My best friend growing up was obsessed with cats, and we certainly, I mean, I have memories of, like, dance around her living room. She really loved Mr. Malise. So we would, we would do a lot of, like, singing and dancing to that great tune. I knew memory. It was a song that I learned to sing like in a third grade voice lesson. But then, like, I say it was, it was sort of like something that was around when I was growing up in the 90s, and then I've kind of a non traditional background into theater, so I was doing other stuff. I have a pre med degree. Went back to school for singing, and so cats popped up. It was July 9. All the timeline was nuts. July 9, I got the audition request for cats. And by August 9, I was in Rochester rehearsing, so it was like, oh, cats, oh, a cat's tour. Oh, okay, I guess I'm doing the cats tour. So,

[2:32] Mike Abrams: so, like, you, basically, you saw the 1998 movie, but you weren't like, I'm burning through the VHS type of a person.

[2:39] Speaker 2: No, I mean, I loved musicals growing up, and cats was around, but I was a real Julie Andrews fan at that point, like, really obsessed. I think I dressed up as Mary Poppins, like a couple of times for Halloween, you know. So just that was kind of my focus. Katz was in the mix. And I did grow up dancing, but it wasn't, yeah, it was never, it was never full obsession, because I know a lot of cats people, it goes deep. It goes really it goes real deep. Yeah,

[3:14] Mike Abrams: it goes exactly. It goes really well. It's kind of fun too, because I think that's what's cool about this show, is I've met a bunch of people, and there are some people that's like, I have burned through the VHS, and then others was like, I never saw it. And then all sudden, now I'm in, you know, it's like, they're hooked now, but wait, I want to go back to you're in college or pre med. Like, are you taking organic chemistry, dancing and singing? Or like, you, are you just, like, a little bit doing this on the side, but also, like, because that's a very intense study, to take that route.

[3:42] Speaker 2: Yes, it is, yeah. So, so in a nutshell, long story short, I'd grown up singing and dancing, that that type of career wasn't that was something that you did for recreation. It was extracurricular activities, but not a career. I and I always really loved science and math, so I, I went to school. I got a degree. My bachelor degree is in neuroscience, so I was taking voice lessons on the side. But I, yes, I took organic chemistry. I took all of those requirements we had, you know, neuroscience class as well. I took neuropsych, all that stuff. And, oh, how to make how to make it short, I did a study abroad semester in Germany, and studied at a music conservatory there. It changed my life. It showed me that I wanted to be a musician and try and see what would happen. So I went back to school. I graduated with my neuroscience degree, and then I went and got a master's degree at San Francisco Conservatory I was doing sort of the more classical music side of things, but musical theater was just always in my bones from when I was young. It was what I had really grown up and loved. So it basically feels like I circled back, just like with cats. I feel like I circled back to this stuff that I really loved. It's like a young. I'm little kid. It just took me a little extra time to get there.

[5:04] Mike Abrams: That's so fascinating, because I just, like so many people I've met and talked to that are in the world have this, like, I would say, much more traditional background for it, of where I was like, Oh yeah, you knew from day one that this was going to be the way you're gonna do and that's all you did to work towards it. And I love, kind of hearing the almost, that's reverse, but like a, very much a you in a pre med you don't have the time to, like, you have to do the extracurriculars, because, for the med school application, you gotta, you gotta be interesting on that, you know, yeah, just be a straight A student. And then to hear that pivot almost, you know, going back to something you grew up doing is really cool.

[5:39] Speaker 2: Thank you. I mean, I remember I would go to voice lessons, and it was the first time in college. I was on scholarship so I could take voice lessons for free. So I was taking private voice lessons for the first time versus, you know, singing in choirs and doing that kind of stuff, doing, you know, I went to public school, did all the musicals, theater kids, stuff, improv and all that, but I was taking more serious voice lessons in college, and I would leave my lessons, and for about 20 minutes, I would have this pure, just little pocket of time where all I was thinking about was the music that I had just been singing and, you know, technique that we had been discussing. And it was this beautiful, perfect little moment. I remember, you know, after about 2030, minutes, the bubble pops, and oh, yeah, I gotta go to lab. There's always, always lab. You always have to go to lab. And I worked, I did a thesis in a neuroscience lab, so I was also doing lab work for them. And I remember thinking, Oh, I just, I wish, I wish I could have this 20 minutes all the time, yeah. And, you know, now, now I now, I do so I think it was just little by little, this thing that I had loved, but was never really, you know, never really felt like, Oh, that can't possibly work, or that's not in the cards. And it just kept kind of calling back to me, and I feel very lucky that I listened to it and decided to apply to grad schools and get my degree. Yeah, that changed. That totally changed my life.

[7:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, it's a totally different path. He went from Yes, being being in a, you know, brain surgeon type of like residency in med school, to singing on stage as in a cat costume. Oh

[7:25] Speaker 2: yeah, the cat Oh, the cat costume. I mean, that one's I, actually, I had the opportunity to to be on stage at a Keller auditorium, which is in Portland, Oregon, where I grew up. That was the last stop on our tour. So the last you know, week of saying goodbye to the cats tour, I was on stage at the Broadway theater where I went to go see shows as a little kid. And it was so it was so special, I think, especially because it wasn't something that I grew up doing, and everybody knew I was going to do that career. It was like kind of that secret little dream that was kept alive for a really long time. And it was really amazing to have people I went to middle school and high school with come to the show and be like, Oh my God. I cannot believe that this happened. And I was

[8:19] Mike Abrams: like, me either, yeah, yeah. It's taking me to be here. It's taking hobby into career, which is, like, you know, the versus treating you as career, which is so cool because, like, you're able to find a way to do that, yeah, but I want to go. So let's, let's talk before Portland, though, you get this rehearsal, or you get this audition, and you go and you join the cats chorus, but yeah, a very quick turnaround. What, like, how much because you're in the chorus first, versus, like, ready to be on the swing? Are you in the like, storytelling rehearsal process, where they go through everything, or, like, what's that prep look like for you?

[8:55] Speaker 2: Yes, yes. So the rehearsals start with a couple of days of music. We had our music supervisor, Brian Taylor, so he we we all sang as an ensemble, collectively. And then once we get on the floor in rehearsals with our resident choreographer, Grace Buckley, who is an incredible dancer and mentor, she taught us the show, and Kim Craven, of course, immediately. So we all started by learning the Jellicle Ball and even as boots singers. I mean, we were really on Team swing from the beginning, so we knew that we would have to learn those tracks. And, you know, Brice Bella doesn't have a ton of movement, but jolly Loren is in the entire show. She barely leaves the stage, and she is, she's doing a lot of she's doing a lot of dancing. So from the beginning, you know, the swings all line up at the back of the rehearsal space, and just, you know, let me look here. Let me look here. Let me like, do the movement. And then at the end of rehearsals, sometimes we break out and have. Then, okay, swings, let's see you in this track, and then you in this track. So we were, yeah, we were learning the show as dancers from the beginning with everybody else, which was really cool.

[10:10] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's, uh, that's kind of like, it is strange, because, like, I do think about your track, um, Joey Lorem and Grizabella grizzabel is like, 15 minutes come in, just belt and get off. Like, it's a very Princess track. It's known you hear it. But then Joey Lorem, as you said, is on stage the whole time dancing, the whole time singing a little bit of a number with Gus, just totally opposites. So it's like, you almost have to prepare for, like, if it was just cruising, well, it'd be much easier. It's like, all right, I don't need to learn all those dance numbers. I don't need to learn the ball, yeah, but you have to learn both the whole thing and then really the whole show, because you're singing in the booth the whole time too. Yes.

[10:48] Speaker 2: And jelly Lorem is singing soprano one so and Andrew Lloyd Webber is notorious for writing like just the highest soprano ensemble. Singing. He loves to, he loves to get, you know, he loves to get those voices nice and high. So I was, you know, as you say, belting as Grizabella, and then singing the soprano one track. And for me, personally, because I had opera training, I think that really helped me figure out, okay, how do I, how do I sing super high in a sustainable way, while then also making sure that I'm keeping those like warmer, richer, lower colors of my voice ready to felt. And I was balancing that the entire tour, wow, which was cool. I mean, I came out of that tour of feeling like, oh, I can sing anything, if I can do that, if I can do that, eight shows a week, while also being able to deliver a song like memory, which, as you say, everybody knows that song. They know what it's supposed to sound like. And yeah, the challenges of those two tracks simultaneously. It's like, okay, yeah, if I can do that, I can I can do I can handle anything.

[11:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah, the grizzabel part's so interesting for me because, like, I obviously, my whole take is, I don't think she should be the choice, but, but when you go to see cats, not most people, but there's a good chunk of that audience that knows nothing else about it, but that it's people dressed as cats, and you're gonna hear memory, yeah. And so it's like, it's the one thing people are waiting for, yeah. And they hear a little memory before intermission, but they're really waiting for, like, the full song. And so it is a part that, like, I can't even fathom, like, the build up to it and everything for something that's that's a core part of most people's experience is going to be there and to switch back and forth. I even think about it from that angle. Yeah,

[12:34] Speaker 2: it's the it's so much of being a performer is the mental game and keeping yourself in a place where you know how to okay, how can I go on for jelly Lorem and be on stage and really engaging with pretty much every single other cat who's on stage, because she's such an important community builder throughout the whole show, she's just kind of everywhere. And then how can I also be prepared to sit backstage and wait for this moment that, you know, everyone in the audience is waiting for? Like, how do I just make sure that I, as an artist, am prepared to handle that pressure and keep my cool and then deliver, deliver the goods and

[13:16] Mike Abrams: high emotions, you know? Like, it's a it's supposed to be, yeah?

[13:20] Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, that part isn't for me. That part was never hard to construct because, I mean, the way that, the way that Chrissy Cartwright talks about Grizabella, I found that all very beautiful and emotionally compelling. And you, you're kind of isolated from the cast backstage, so you have all this time to kind of feel and the music, I mean, I loved remark the cat was actually my favorite Riz music to sing. I feel like it's this one moment where you get to see her be angry. You know, she's she sort of gets to express that color of her isolation. And I love that step wise motive when grisso ball is walking on stage here, that the music really colors that emotionally for you. So by the time you get on stage and you've been backstage waiting for it to go, you're kind of amped up. So I think that, you know, as long as you can channel that effectively into your singing, I think the show kind of gives you a little boost there.

[14:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah, is there any actual, not real animosity? Because I'm sure, you know, you're all castmates in the you know, you become friends and you're together all the time. But like, are you when you're jelly? Are you a little angry at the Grizz? Because it's like, all right, I'm dancing. I'm working my my tail off here all night, and then you just come in here and get the, you know, the roaring applause for your 15 minutes. You

[14:47] Speaker 2: know, I think that. I think that, as you say, there are some people in the audience who are all they know about cats is this song that sort of became a pop hit, and people are gonna be dressed as cats, and that's it. But I think what's so special about cats and the cats fandom is that people know that cats is more than just that song. And most, like deeper fans of cats, are fans of like, skimble Shanks, you know, and these other cats who have a more um, sort of, like a more elaborate and deeper connection to, like the ensemble story. Because cats is really an ensemble piece. Yeah, and, you know, of course, you have people you know, who love grants and who love the white cat. But I mean, even the white cat, she is, like, so deeply important to the story of the whole ensemble. So I think I never felt like, I mean, I just always felt like, Oh yeah, it's so wonderful to play jelly because she's so involved in all these little moments. And it's such a pleasure to get to do that. And then it's also such a pleasure to, like, get to be, I mean, there's, there's like, nothing better than getting this thing, yeah, on a Broadway tour stage. Like, that's that's gonna live with me for, you know, forever. Yeah,

[16:06] Mike Abrams: it's so interesting to hear you say the split of the people in the crowd, because I've been both sides of it. So I was the first time I saw I was the, I don't know anything. What am I going to see? Someone just hand me tickets and I'm gonna go. And I was like, I didn't even know memory was in until I saw, like, I got to that point, I'm like, Oh, I know this song. And it was like, gosh, yeah. Like, that was where I was I first walked in, and then I saw the same tour, but this year in January, and I was like, I know everything now. Like, I know way too much. And I'm like, All right, I want to see where the twins turn early. I want to see, like, these things. Like, I'm like, I'm looking for these things like, I definitely would have never even thought of so I'm curious. Like, what do you think that split is in the audience? Like, I was in DC, a couple 1000 person like, uh, auditorium, yeah. Is it 5050? I would, I would assume, and maybe this is naive of me, but I would assume, on tour, you have more, you have, like your core, deep fandom, people that are gonna come to a lot of the shows. Yeah, but is that like 10% is it 20% is it 5% is it 15% I think it's

[17:15] Speaker 2: way more than that. I think, I think, I mean, we had so many people who were, they would talk about or post about how they had seen cats 10 times. I mean, people, people have such deep connections to the show. And there's so much to there's so many layers. I think the first time you see cats, you're kind of just trying to get the lay of the land. You're like, what is the plot? It's like, okay, Wrong question. That's not what this musical is about, you know, and then by the time you see it a couple times, like, there's all these things to discover. And as you say, it's like, if you're wanting to look deeper on cats, you can, because there is stuff that you're, you know, that you're going to get to. I mean, like the set alone is so beautiful to look at. And, you know, the junkyard, it's like the more you look at the junkyard, the more you realize how beautifully intricate it all is to get these human sized items on stage with these people dressed as cats. So I mean, at least 20% of the audience is in it, loyal cats, people, maybe, maybe more. It's really hard to say, but I think especially post pandemic, because we were, I think we were one of the first tours. We were one of the first tours to come out of the pandemic. All the casting happened during the pandemic. Again, I was, that was like a month before a month I was hired, I think two weeks, officially, two weeks before we left. So that was, that was wild. But being one of the first tours to go out after the pandemic, or I guess still kind of during the pandemic, people were really craving these theatrical experiences again. So I think there was also a lot of buildup of like, oh, we thought we were going to see cats last year, and we didn't get to, and now we get to and so there's a lot of excitement. So maybe it's that color as well that we had. We had this kind of special opportunity to, like, give people cats again. Who had been like, we want cat. Yeah,

[19:09] Mike Abrams: there's, I have the tickets from the the show that supposed to come to Deanna in April of 2020, my mom, and she still has them, and handed them to me, and, you know, I was like, they didn't. So they haven't, they haven't been back on the circuit yet. I think they went close to Indianapolis, but you were talking, maybe you're somewhere around, yes, but yeah. But it's, it's a, it's such an interesting part, because, yeah, that's a good point I saw a year later. So it's like, on the second leg of that, that tour. So I, I was trying to, like, I definitely looked around during because I saw two back to back days. So the second day, I'm like, All right, there was a couple swings on which was cool. But I'm also like, what's this crowd look like on a matinee on on Saturday or Sunday? I forget which one it was. Yeah, and whenever I've seen a show a couple times, I do like to kind of see how people react, because it's like, if it's their first time, and I definitely know where this fun. Lines coming, or I know this part's coming, like, one of my favorite ones is Hadestown is just like, Yeah, you know, it's building. You know what this building up to? It's not a new story. It's based on a true story. And every time, it still shocks me how many people are surprised by that ending. So I get, I get an enjoyment of that, but I didn't notice in mine, I felt like, I know there's more people that weren't the cat super fan. It's like I saw some, but it felt like a much smaller group,

[20:24] Speaker 2: yeah, which made me make sense, because the tour is now in its third year. Yeah, and they're, they're actually about to be done. Their last stop is Hawaii, so that's nice for them. Yeah, they're going to Hawaii on there

[20:40] Mike Abrams: for a rough place to finish.

[20:43] Speaker 2: Um, yeah. So I think, yeah, cats is, like, made it's made its rounds now. And like, everyone who, yeah, maybe you got more, more folks who are new to cats. But I, yeah, I love, I think there's probably a lot of people who also knew about cats like in the 80s, but they haven't encountered it since then. And this, this tour, is such a mix of kind of old and new, yeah, so there's a lot, there's a lot of layers there. So I think the fact that people are like discovering cats a new or revisiting it is also like kind of fun, because there's, yeah, there's things you don't expect. And I

[21:25] Mike Abrams: have heard from some of those older fans. I call them the OG fans, and some of them are not current fans of the new choreography, like they're just, they grew up with what they know, and they're like, Yeah, that's it. How dare you make any change? Type of person, totally, I like, a sports fan, I related to like, they're the old they're the ones that, like said baseball shouldn't change. Like, they're the ones that are just like, baseball is perfect as is, do not evolve whatsoever.

[21:49] Speaker 2: And it's like, I'm a huge modern fan. So I relate to that. I relate to that like the pitch, the pitch, the

[21:57] Speaker 2: games are jumping along. Now, I'm like, this is nice, but it's also it's different relationship between pitcher and totally different with a pitch clock anyway, not to,

[22:06] Speaker 3: yeah, we just lost half of our listeners, right there. People, yeah, people just fast forward 15 seconds. But okay, so I want

[22:16] Mike Abrams: to talk a little bit about what you were told for your back stories, like, what are the relationships? Obviously, we've gone into a lot of details on this, but is there anything that kind of surprised you, or that was unique when you were hearing jelly story or grizzly Bell story, or even just anything where it was like, Hey, this is a relationship you should be playing, that you are like, Wait a second. No way, because it seems like there's a lot of debates, and you, in rehearsal, get to hear at least the interpretation at the moment, or what they kind of give you as you get to add to it totally,

[22:47] Speaker 2: um, I mean, I think I think jelly was there. There's a really easy way into that character again, because the choreography has her so involved with everybody. She is like, you know, she's Gus helper. She's around. She's very sweet. All the cats love her. And Kayla Jamieson, who was playing jelly Lorem on that tour, really, like, went full tilt into that. And she created a lot of, like, beautiful, sort of extra movements and little moments to connect. And so I feel like I just followed in her footsteps and just enjoyed kind of the simplicity of jelly being one of the older cats in the group, but connecting with all the youngins, and she gets this really sweet moment with Gus. So that felt like a very, I don't want to say easy isn't quite the right word, but it was just a straight, kind of a straightforward character build with Grizz. I don't know if anyone's talked about this on an episode. They probably have, because you've probably heard it all, but one of the things, a couple of things really struck me about her character. One is that the poem of Grizabella the glamor cat was something that was not in the original book of old positives. It was found by Victoria Elliott and brought to the table by her and originally against Elliot, thought it would be too dark for the book, so she found this poem and brought it in and like that creates such a beautiful color. So that's one thing that stands out again. You probably have heard well,

[24:32] Mike Abrams: so not only we heard about but it's the core my argument's always been, and I'm getting a little bit lighter on it as I went to more recently, I was like, I don't think children should see the show. Like, it's very dark. There's a lot of, like, mccaviddy and demeters potential backstory. And there's like, oh yeah, what Isabel doing before she comes back and oh, what's happening with Victoria on stage? Like, yeah, oh yeah. I mean, yeah. There's, it's a coming of age. Story for her, the balls of orgy, like there's just so much there I get. It's going over every kid's head, but it's a, you know, the teenager group. It's probably wildly confusing, because you're probably recognizing some of it, but not fully getting it. And then as even as adult, I'm sitting there going like that, they're, they're basically doing it on stage with cats guys. They are, you know, right? Yeah. So when I learned that story, I'm like, wait a second, the author thought this was too dark for kids, and we're gonna make this the cornerstone of the musical that we're gonna have children from all over the world for 40 plus years come see Yes, validated my argument. Yeah.

[25:38] Speaker 2: I totally, I totally hear that. Yeah, one of the things that I loved about working with Chrissy Cartwright, and you do get to work more with her, one on one as a Grizz cover, because you get to be in those rehearsals and, you know, kind of listen. And we were lucky that we got to also ask some questions, and, like, talk with her. She is very explicit about that stuff. She she's very clear about how Grizabella, Grizabella, the way she talks about it is, Grizabella is sort of sees herself in the young white cat, and how she wanted to see the world and go out and, yeah, gets involved in Macavity. And the show has been a little bit reinterpreted with the 2016 revival, making Grizabella a younger cat, which is, I think, really interesting. I see it now, but I do think there's a little bit of a loss of having that role played by an older woman. Because I think the way, the way in society that we often, you know, push aside older women, or we don't focus on them, or we don't value them as much, I think there is something about that in the original story that was really beautiful and interesting to dig into. Obviously, I'm glad that I got to play Grizz, but, yeah, oh, I was, I was going to say one, one other thing that really struck me about the character of Grizabella is Chris. You would talk about how on the way to the theater, when they were going to reverse the original production, there was this homeless woman who was, you know, living in the neighborhood outside of the theater. And they all got to know her. And she, you know, was poor and destitute, but she always had these beautiful nails. And so, you know, Grizabella, part of her costume is these gloves. Again, you've probably heard this before, but, you know, she has these gloves with these red nails, and at this homage to this woman who was real, who became this character, influence and kind of, you know, so much of the show is about seeing. You know, who are we judging and who are we? You know, who are we seeing in what way and like, Who do we allow to have dignity, and who are we tolerant of? And just the fact that that was coming from a real, a real person, that was, that was always very special to me. Yeah,

[28:12] Mike Abrams: that's fascinating. I did not actually, don't think I've heard that story about the homeless lady. So that's, that's new, yeah,

[28:19] Speaker 2: perfect nails. He always had perfect nails. I was so I was just, you know, there's, there's so much about the development of the show that, you know, I wish, how I wish I could have been a fly on the wall in that original production, when, for the first month of rehearsals, all they did were these kind of, like theater games and exercises to get into validity. I mean, we had a couple days of felinity, and that felt like, whoa. This is kind of crazy, but we're all into it. We're all just going for it. Like, how cool, but to have a month of that is sort of astounding. And I think to your point about the OG fans of the cats choreo and kind of the the new direction that the choreography is taking. I love the new choreography, and I do recognize that part of what is so provocative and radical about the original production is her vision for these cats and how they move. And you don't, you don't get to keep that vision 100% when you're melding it with something else. So I see, I see both sides of that, and I think there are definitely reasons to value the original choreography. But it's also cool that somebody got to put a new spin, and especially a famous choreographer who, yeah, you know, it's connecting us with, really, you know, contemporary works in theater. So it, it was cool to work on that.

[29:41] Mike Abrams: It's an interesting for me, because I never, you know, my original is the 1998 movie, is all I have access to, which is what's on YouTube. And then I have seen Andy's version four times now, you know, so it's like I've seen the new version. It's only version. So I've actually only seen a younger Grizabella every time. And that's. Part of I know what clouds some of what caused my judgment, in my decision anyways, of like, where this whole thing came from, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. All right, I do want to, I want to shift gears, because I am so excited, because I am a friends, like, super fan, in the sense that, like, Yes, I love sitcoms. It's actually my biggest I've said this 1000 times on this podcast, but like, I the thing I love, I love most on TV is predictable. AB storyline, sitcom story, which friends is like one of the masterminds of just brilliant. Yes, two different lines coming together at the end and neat and tidy closing. It's the best background noise. It's on TV almost all day. Still, it's on TV. It's all day. It's on Nick and I'd all night. It is literally on my TV probably half the day, if I'm working from home. Just muted, but just background noise. So when I got to come see you all. I knew I was gonna be like, not only am I gonna get every reference, but like, I'm excited to see which ones you choose beyond just like, the big one, you know, like, everyone knows that we're on a break and pivot and some of those things, but I'm like, yeah, what are some smaller ones you're gonna go after? And it's if you're a friends fan. It is a blast, because it is so funny. Your mannerisms as Rachel or spot on. Thank you. And so I had so much fun, and I cannot wait, because I love trying to compare cat's characters to friends characters. So before we do that, though, I want you tell me what was was it like, like, getting into the show, trying to, like, pick up the mannerisms, knowing the jokes. Like, were you a huge friends fans or, I mean, I feel like at this point, everyone was somewhat of a fan, but like, what was your level of knowledge going into that? Like, getting this, this role? Yeah,

[31:51] Speaker 2: you know I, um, well, so I originally auditioned friends also happened for me very quickly, um, because that's, I mean, I think that's how this business works. It's like you're spending all this time thinking that you know what you're targeting, and then all of a sudden something comes out of left field, and you just have to stay open to it and be like, Okay, I guess I'm auditioning for the friends musical this week. Like, great. So I I went in to audition for the swing so I prepared a Phoebe, a Monica and a Rachel, wow. And in both of my auditions, I was doing all three of those characters. And in my callback for the swing, they said, hey, the role of Rachel is opening up. Are you interested? And I was like, Yeah, sure. I just, you know, just heard about this this week. So yeah, as I went to see the show, it really made me laugh. And I was like, Okay, let's do this so, and now I think as I've revisited friends more, it's such fun to play Rachel, because I grew up watching the show, but I was not. I knew Rachel greens in high school. I was not. I was not that girl. It was, it was not me. And I think it's easy to, you know, it's easy to poke fun at Rachel, but it's also such a pleasure to, like, sort of put my judgment or what I think I know about her aside and go back. I'm re watching friends right now, and you know, part of the reason to watch is to pick up all her little, you know, she's, like, got all these amazing, like, physical gestures that I picked up from the show. She has such a distinct way of talking and expressing herself, and she's also very proud. And I think, like, one of the really fun way things about playing her is like seeing her like, yeah, you can, you can see her as a, you know, boring stereotype of a popular girl, or you can kind of flesh out her character and see her as this really proud and loyal woman who is standing up for herself, and she always speaks her mind she loves what she loves. And yeah, getting into expressing her it's just been like, really, really fun. Yeah,

[34:05] Mike Abrams: it was. It's fun to watch. It's fun to see. I love that you all blurred the lines of like the show and also like the performer. So, like, I love that some of the like, yeah, famous people that are in it are just called out as their famous people, like, yes, as names, some of the jokes about that are about their actual lives, and not just the friends, yes, and then the music is so funny, it's like a great mix in. So I loved every moment of

[34:32] Speaker 2: it. Oh, I thank you for thank you for saying that. Thank you for coming. I mean, we like love, yeah, we love doing the show. The group is an amazing group of people, and we're, like, really, really having fun doing it. It's like, it feels like an extension of, you know, I did, I did improv in in school, and, you know, it feels like an extended SNL sketch, yeah, you know, sort of that, like, it's like a. Loving roast. It's like, we love this thing, but we're also roasting it. And as you say, we're kind of roasting like SNL has a great, I think, Weekend Update segment from a couple years ago with someone doing a Rachel Green impression that I definitely studied for my for my audition. And it's like, it's, it's so easy to kind of roast the character and the actor simultaneously, because that show totally changed their lives. Totally changed how each of them, you know, the type of roles that they were offered later, I mean, and I mean, like, especially Jennifer Aniston, like she, she, she's iconic, yeah, you know, and her, her, her, as Rachel, is iconic. It's sort of impossible to separate them. So it's, yeah, it's been really fun to, like, get to get to, you know, do my, do my spin on, on that.

[35:59] Mike Abrams: That's so fun. All right, let's cast, let's cast the cats as friends. Oh my gosh. So I

[36:05] Speaker 2: haven't, I thought we were going to do this, but I did not think about it in advance, because I just want to see what comes to me. So think that's almost

[36:11] Mike Abrams: the better way to do it, because I've had, I've done a few of these where I've, like, where I I know the material, like, I don't know the material as well, and I'm like, hold on. I got to do some, like, research. All right, who are these people and what? And then it's like, this one, I'm like, had friends on before we jumped on today. You know? It's like, yeah, we're on TVs this morning in the background. I love that. And so it's like, there's, I this is what I knew. So we could do as soon as there's obviously the main six characters who we'll get to. I do think it's fun to cover a couple of the side characters. So do you want to cover for sure? Yeah, talk about, let's do the side characters first, and we'll get to the main section, Gunther. Who do you have?

[36:53] Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I mean that are the guy who plays Gunther is like, so funny. I think I have, well, actually, I think I would make him like a like a car buckety, or like a cat who who gets cut in some of the productions, but he's like, he's there and he should be part of the ensemble, but he, like, didn't make it on our tour. I think there's like, something funny about seeing him as a side, as a side cat. Um, yeah, what do you have Corbat?

[37:19] Mike Abrams: I have him as a twin, because he's kind of, like quiet and around and, you know, like the cut to him a lot, where he's just, like, a reaction. And so I feel like that's one of the twins. Also, I do think the twins get cut every once in a while on tour. So it's like, to your point, maybe that's that is where, where he fits, but that's how, that's where I had him. I

[37:38] Speaker 2: like that, especially because he is so he's like, quiet and always watching, yeah, which is very in vibe with the twins. Yeah. I like that. I like that. Okay,

[37:49] Mike Abrams: what about let's do Mike. Mike was Paul Rudd. Oh, Paul, isn't that scary, right? Yes,

[38:00] Speaker 2: yes, no, I haven't. I'm like, I'm in the early I was like, that's in early friends, like, what um,

[38:05] Speaker 3: I think this was hard because I didn't, yes, one is hard. I'm

[38:11] Speaker 2: like, he sort of feels like, I'm like, I'm like, I don't want to use some of the, like, obvious fun loving cats that are, like, coming to mind, like, he's very he's sort of like a, like a Peter or like one of the, just one of the like, nice cats who's like in the opening and then disappears entirely. You're like, just a little call out.

[38:40] Mike Abrams: Yes, I thought the same thing. But I was like, I always forget, is it Alan says the one that's a little cocky, so I thought maybe it's tumble Brutus. Like it's one of those two. To me, like it's one of the younger dancing in the beginning. Tumble Brutus is

[38:52] Speaker 2: such a great pick because, yeah, he's like a kitten and he's like, fun and rambunctious, but he's not, like, going full Mongo Jerry energy, which we like, obviously have to save for, for one of the main I like that. Yeah, okay, what

[39:12] Speaker 2: Tom Selleck, oh, my god. Tom Selleck makes a really, has a really great moment in the friends parody article, very much does, I mean, oh, my god, yeah. I gotta think about, like, actual, I mean, I think actual Tom Selleck, like, on, as on the show is Dr Burke, like, I just think of luffer, like, because he's such a, he's such a proper, he's such a proper gentleman. And he also, like, yeah, he's very kindly. I could also see, I actually could also see Gus, because I'm forgetting the name, who's the um, who's the boyfriend of Monaco's that's played by John Favreau. Later, oh, like

[40:00] Speaker 2: the billionaire, because that's kind of Buster for energy, yeah. So if that's Buster for energy, then Gus Pete.

[40:08] Speaker 3: His name is Pete. It's maybe his name is Pete. I think Pete,

[40:11] Speaker 2: yes, you're right. So I think Pete is maybe actually full Buster for and Dr Burke for me is like giving lovely Gus energy, like Gus before he is, like, like, a little earlier in his prime. Yeah,

[40:27] Mike Abrams: I think, I think Gus is Tom Selleck and bustafer is Dr Burke. Because the DR Burke storyline is a little, it's a little strange. In my opinion, it's like, a little weird, a little creepy, and, like, I remember even when it happened, and like, Oh, you got Tom Selleck. Like, this is such a big name, like, you run with it. But then it's like, the party where they're at their parents house, and it's like, their Oh, best friend, they don't know, Oh, weird, weird. And that's what bus for Jones. I think some of that's because I read bus for Jones is going to gentlemen's clubs, as the American gentleman's clubs, and not the British gentleman's clubs. And so I'm like, my interpretation of Buster Jones is like, Oh, this is a much different cat than I think what was actually written. So that's how I do feel about Dr burger. Oh, I like that. I like that. Okay, we got one more side character. We gotta do Janice. Oh, yes.

[41:17] Speaker 2: Oh, Janice. Oh, I love Janice in the parody musical. I think that, I mean, the first thing that came to mind was rump, because of her, like energy, like rump is such a playful character. And something that I love about Janice is that she just, like, is unapologetically herself. So in a way, she's, like, maybe almost giving bomb Valley Arena energy as well. Yeah, I'm a big Janice fan. I love Janice, yeah, but there's something about rump that's like, you know, Janice is a little, like, off the she's a little off the rails. And I think rumps Alan, good

[42:02] Mike Abrams: answer, bomb, bomb Valley, Rita was too. Like, confident, sexy, like, knows it versus like, I think jazz is confident and knows it and feels that way. But it's like, it's meant to be a very different, yeah. I was like, I think we're gonna use this character somewhere else. But I saw little Jenny, any dots, I kind of comes in is very loud, has their moment, like, is involved in a lot of the stuff going on. So that was like, very

[42:32] Speaker 2: like, telling everyone what to do energy, like she does, you know, and she was, you know, parading around with the mites and the cockroaches. And she's just like, I totally, I think that's a great answer. Actually, I love and with the outfit change, you know, because Janice is very flashy, yes, so, yeah, I think that's a good I love that. Actually, I love her as Jenny. Let's

[42:55] Mike Abrams: go to the main six now, and I'll start with one I think is Jenny. It was as Monica for me. But DM someone else from Monica?

[43:01] Speaker 2: No, I yeah, I was gonna put, I put Monica's Jenny, because she's so, like, fastidious and, like everything, everything, just so

[43:13] Mike Abrams: I do think if we're ignoring gender or, I mean, they're cats, so it's a little different. But I think there's some skimble Shanks in her too. Like, very organized on time. If, if

[43:23] Speaker 2: you're saying that we can ignore gender which we like totally should, because they're cats way. And I'm, I'm kind of, like, obsessed with the idea of doing gender bent cats like, I think there's a whole world to explore there that could be, like, really amazing. Um, yeah, skimble Shanks, I think you're totally right, because skimble shakes is so like, his whole attitude is, like, when he's doing that song, like he's singing this song about how, like, everything needs to run on time, but then he's like, sleeping on the job in that same number, which I think is like the best, when Monica is, like, you know, she has, she has that spirit of, like, everything has to be this way. But then she's also, like, kind of nuts. And everybody else knows that she's nuts. So that combination, um, yeah, that that is, like, full skiing energy to me.

[44:16] Speaker 2: Um, Chandler, to me, is Mungo Jerry. Okay, like, in his like, provocative, goofball energy. Who did you have?

[44:28] Mike Abrams: I had the same thing. I just, yeah, I didn't, it was a hard one, because I thought maybe you could go like, I felt a little bit, I think I struggled with the evolution of Chandler, and then what happened to you know? What happened with his life, you know? And, yeah, Perry. And so, yeah, I'm like, I don't know where this goes, but I think Michael Jerry, if you like, especially if you think about the early seasons of Chandler, does feel very like, like, just all. Over the place, but in a energetic, manic type of way. And that does be like, Wingo Jerry.

[45:04] Speaker 2: There might be like, you know, there's some theories that, like, you know, macavid, like, the Macavity backstory is like, very, you know, murky. And it's like, well, maybe, maybe Chandler is like, early Macavity. And then we see, as we see, Matthew Perry, kind of like, go to the dark side. So does the cavity. Maybe that's like too much. There could be, there could be something there for, like, the deep fans.

[45:29] Mike Abrams: If we keep going down the if there was 10 more years of fans that we would have a Macavity angle, yeah, we

[45:34] Speaker 2: would get to that'd be very dark Phoebe. Oh, my God. Phoebe is Phoebe is really hard. I actually a little bit now, now that I've put Monica skimble Shanks, there is something about Jenny. Jenny, any doubts who she's, like, a little kooky and her, like, kooky energy, like, there's not, I'm trying to think of who else is, like, really, like, really silly, because Phoebe isn't she wasn't like a rumble teaser to me, because she's not really naughty. She's like, kind of kooky. So there's maybe, like, a little bit of a jelly Lorem vibe, like jelly alarm spends all of cats, like, taking care of everyone else, but like, when jelly alarm is alone, just like hanging out, I think she's like, kind of a nerd and kind of, kind of a little wacky, like, so I could see, like a jolly Lorem angle, those kind of two have stuck out to me. I have pieces

[46:33] Mike Abrams: of three of cats, so I think there's the history of, like, her mom and twin and everything was Demeter for me. Because I think you could have, like, the it's a very, like, troubled upbringing and background. I think I had a tantamount, just like, a little all over, like, out there, but stuff before, and,

[46:57] Speaker 2: yes, that's good, that's good. She's Baby's

[47:01] Mike Abrams: like, yeah, she's always doing something like that. And then I was like, there's probably some, it's either etc or syllabi, like one of the kittens, where it's like, there's a little bit of energy, but also not, I think, as big of your main like character, that there's less of the storyline. So that was where I'm

[47:18] Speaker 2: at, yeah, syllabu is a really good one, actually, because she is, like, she has the silly kitten energy, but she also is kind of touched in the production. And we see all these moments where syllab is like, touched, or kind of like struck by something, and then she, like, sings this, and she sings all the, like, all the little songs, the way that he's like, coming out, you know, like the way that soul love comes out with daylight is kind of like the smelly cat of and smelly cat. I mean, smelly cat, the fact that there's a cat connection, I know, is very fun. Okay,

[47:51] Mike Abrams: we've got two left Ross, I

[47:57] Mike Abrams: Ross was really, oh wait no, sorry, I missed Joey. Oh

[48:00] Speaker 2: yeah, we missed Joey. Joey for me is like, Tugger. Tugger, yeah, Tugger. When he was being nice,

[48:05] Mike Abrams: yeah, I hadn't Tugger. I was just like, you could see him being a little dumb, but also just like, thinks they're everyone loves him, yeah. Okay, now is looking at a Ross? Um,

[48:16] Speaker 2: yeah, Ross is Ross is really hard because it's like, who are the, who are the, like, mopey cats. Like, that's sort of the best. I think David Schwimmer, honestly, is doing some of the greatest acting on friends. He's so, like, there's so much physical comedy. He's so funny. Oh yeah, I didn't, like, really settle. I can tell you I have, yeah, yeah. Tell me

[48:44] Mike Abrams: who you have. I've monkeys trapped in Old Deuteronomy, like the two, like the two of them are, like, a little bit serious, but want to be more involved, like in the the all the stuff going on. I also do think, like, Ross's line story lines are with, connected with everybody. Like he's almost, he's not the clue of it all, but he's the one that's definitely like, it's his sister, it's his old girlfriend, it's his college roommate. And I do think monk is, like a little and older. I'm a kind of Narrator ish, and so you've got that same for sure. It's like, they're the ones kind of pending most of this, if you, if you have it. So that's where I thought,

[49:20] Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, monkey strap is totally now that you mentioned that, I hate to say that I didn't, like, remember monkey because monkey shop as you're you're correct. He's like, kind of the glue that holds the story together. He's also kind of following. He's the one who's kind of trying to follow in Old Deuteronomy footsteps. Yeah, he's sort of trying to be the most professional of the cats, yeah, yeah, I think monkey strap is, like, the is such a great I've never really thought about the storyline, like how everything is kind of tied to Ross, but now that you mention it, they

[49:55] Mike Abrams: allude to it in one of the episodes, because they talk about how Phoebe is like. The one that would be cut out because she doesn't have a connection, like, near to the rest of them, and it's like everybody else is like Phoebe and Joey, the two that don't have the like, clear connection. But Joey was like, the roommate of Chandler and Phoebe. I don't remember how they really integrate Phoebe in I don't either, honestly, but yeah, it's so that's kind of the the one I thought now we gotta do Rachel, because I love that. This is your, your bread and butter here. Who do you have? I

[50:25] Speaker 2: know, um, weirdly. I have, um, weirdly. I have Cassandra.

[50:33] Speaker 3: Oh, interesting, because, see that though, because

[50:37] Speaker 2: Rachel is like, she is. She's definitely a pretty girl. She loves to shop, like she loves, she loves, like, her nice things. And Cassandra's very, like, you know, a proper, like, beautiful, you know, it maybe Cassandra was like a rich lady's cat who, like, kind of found her way to the junkyard. And I was thinking about, like, Rachel sometimes gives bomb energy and she sometimes gives Demeter energy, but she's not quite well. She is pretty fiery. So I think it was a little torn between, like, the sides of her. Rachel definitely has a Jekyll and Hyde kind of personality, where she can be really sweet, and then she can be like, what, and totally change on a dime. So I think she's like, kind of giving bomb, and she's kind of giving Kaz

[51:29] Mike Abrams: those are for me, I think those are perfect. I had the bomb, for sure. I had the meaner version of the other side of her, which was a little I could argue at Grizabella. Like, if you take her down a darker path and then bring her back, you know, like, there is a little bit of like, you know, they the end, I could see that, you know, so, but I

[51:49] Speaker 2: Yeah, who I like, Yeah, I like that. It's almost like, you know, if you look at, like, you know, baby, Grizz, like, or who, if you sort of like, rewind in your head. Like, if I rewind back from who grill was to who she might have started out as, in the in the tribe, yeah. Like, kind of giving, yeah, I can. I can totally see that parallel. I was like, I as someone who I was like, I can't, I can't be so obvious as to be like, Oh, I play Rachel and she's Grizz. Because I like, Grizz, I was like, trying to think outside the box for myself. Totally,

[52:25] Speaker 2: but, yeah, I really, I I totally, I totally dig that. Oh my gosh. I like, I'm probably gonna keep thinking about this for a while. I can't be the choices. I'm gonna have it on the background.

[52:36] Mike Abrams: There's gonna be somebody that pops in character and be like, Oh my God. What about this person? I didn't even think about that. That's this. About that. That's this. Like, yeah. I want to hear

[52:44] Speaker 2: some deep fans, yeah, that that intersection of like, iconic 90s, iconic 90s, like culture people who love friends and people who love cats. Would love to hear some other theories about who their friends as cats are. Send them. Our friends are very Jellicle. I find them as a community to be like very, very Jellicle. So love that. I think it worked.

[53:10] Mike Abrams: Let's do some very quick rapid fire. Yes, what is your favorite? Sorry, if you were gonna play any character for one night in cats. Which one would you want to go on?

[53:25] Speaker 2: Is, I think Tugger just go, I have a ball. I mean, if I could, if I could be bomb and Demeter, I'd love that song. But I think Tugger, I if I was really gonna get to, like, be one of the cats. I think I would want to be Tugger,

[53:42] Mike Abrams: nice. What's Who are your favorite and least favorite cats in the show? Character wise?

[53:51] Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it like kind of changes depending on who you're playing. I'm

[54:01] Speaker 2: when I'm watching the shows, I mean, I love Mr. Most office, and I love skimble Shanks, like, when you're watching the show, and Mr. Mistopolies, happens, you're like, This is the greatest cat of all. Yeah, I love that number. My least favorite cat. That's like, such a hard question, because they're all like, they all have their like spot. I feel like, I feel like Alonzo doesn't get enough development, so I'm choosing him, but only because I'm thinking of the like, the guy who played him on tour had the most beautiful like legs and extensions. Vinnie just is the most beautiful dancer. So I'm like, It's not that, but you're taking the person, take the person out of it, and his beautiful legs out of it. I think. Alan, so just like, wasn't giving, it's giving enough for me. Peter, well, Peter, like nobody even knows about. Peter.

[55:00] Mike Abrams: So people know about Peter? Oh, people know, especially with this podcast, favorite song,

[55:13] Mike Abrams: It's my that's my answer right now too. My answer does change everyone's eye, but that's still it's been that answer for a while. Okay, we are at the moment you got to play Grizabella and Gus caretaker. So you're covering two of the most common answers. By now, I want to hear what is your answer? Are you going to defend grizzabel, or are you going to defend Gus? Are going to defend somebody else as your Jellicle choice?

[55:39] Speaker 2: Um, well, yeah, this is a hard question. The first time I went on as jelly, and we got to the moment of the Jellicle choice, I remember locking eyes with John bow. Was amazing as Gus, and I felt so, so heartbroken that he had not been chosen. I will never forget it. It was a spontaneous emotional reaction. I was just like, This is wrong. Gus should be the one who goes. So I think that's like, sort of my I mean, it just feels, it just feels like Gus and his number, like, really earned him the Jellicle choice. Again. I think if Grizabella was played by an older cat, it would be interesting. I think it's a little bit of a stronger fight, in a way that being said, when you play Grizabella and that moment happens and you ride up to the heavy side lair, it really does feel like the right thing is happening to tell the story that you want to tell. So I, I do see it both ways. And I also think there's a little part of me that's like, skimbles the Jellicle choice, like he's he's so beloved. All

[57:01] Mike Abrams: right, so if I'm marking down your vote, because I do keep track.

[57:03] Speaker 2: Oh, my God, I know you have to. I had to choose one, pick three. I know I did. Are you

[57:09] Mike Abrams: choosing for this year? They can be next year, in the year, okay, okay,

[57:13] Speaker 2: um, I think, I think for this year I have to choose Gus, awesome. Like, I just based on, based on that spontaneous reaction that I had. I will never, I will never forget that I gotta, I gotta give it out for guts for this one. But I love you, Chris. I really do. I

[57:32] Mike Abrams: love it. I criz. I'm happy. So,

[57:36] Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, for you, for you, I'll choose. I'll choose. I've worked me down as a guest. I've

[57:41] Mike Abrams: been wondering how many people have, like, most people, I'm sure, haven't thought about this, except for in the cats world and the super fans and the people doing the show. But over time, I'm like, I'm getting more non Grizabella answers, like, am I influencing it, or is it always been this split? And it's just like, now someone's asking the question, I

[57:58] Speaker 2: think you're influencing it a little bit, because you don't really stop and think about it until you're like, wait, what even is the Jellicle choice? What is the heavy side layer like you have to, kind of like, go deep on that. And once you do, you're like, Wait, now that I'm thinking about this. Why is it chrysolog Which I do, I do get, I don't know. I'll always be torn, but the hard

[58:20] Mike Abrams: hitting the hard hitting journalism here at the wrong cat, yeah, asking the questions nobody else is willing to ask nobody else. Well, this has been amazing. How can people stay in touch with you on social media and see friends and everything?

[58:34] Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, yes. I am on Instagram at Carol and dot bacon. Bacon like breakfast, I have a website, Carol and Ann bacon. You can get tickets to friends through that. I would love for people to come see this friends musical. It is so much fun. Friends off broadway.com. Is their website, and, oh, I just, I just did a big solo show last week. But I'll be, you know, I'm, I'm in New York, and perform regularly around the city. In addition to friends, I do some jazz at cabaret singing. So yeah, just follow, follow, follow socials and all our I'll keep, I'll keep, keep everyone updated on what, what we're up to.

[59:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah, we'll link everything. I will plus in a recommendation on the friends. It's a, it's an internet theater. So it's like, it's a really cool experience, because you do, like, you get to really experience a show. And it was so fun. And especially if you, if you watch Friends at all, or no, it's you're gonna have a blast.

[59:43] Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yes, come see you. Thank you for being

[59:47] Mike Abrams: here, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Rock had died the podcast. Break down the cast atrophy to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or any of us listen to podcasts, follow us on Twitter, Instagram and Tiktok as a rock at diet or check out.