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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm to discover more.

[0:27] Mike Abrams: cat died of the podcast, breakdown of catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. You might have seen him more recently in the Broadway production as one of the puppeteers of Richard Parker in Life of Pi but before he was a tiger. He was a cat. He was in two regional productions of cats and the US tour five. And then was tumble Brutus in the 2016 Broadway revival. So welcome. Andrew Wilson, thank you for joining me.

[0:51] Speaker 2: Hey, Mike, you for having me on. An honor. I am excited

[0:55] Mike Abrams: to have you on. I know we've talked about this for a while, and then I did see Life of Pi recently, and loved it was floored by how amazing the puppeteering is and the set and just a really cool production. I'm very sad to hear it's closing soon, but hopefully this will maybe send some people your way to see it for the last couple weeks before it closes.

[1:14] Speaker 2: Yeah, come to the the other Jellicle junkyard, also known as the Pacific Ocean,

[1:20] Mike Abrams: exactly well, before we get to life pie, we'll talk about that for sure. And I do want to compare the show to cats, but let's start with your cat's history. So you've been in the tour and regional productions and the Broadway revival, but when was your first introduction to the show? Was it the 98 movie, or was it seeing as a kid?

[1:36] Speaker 2: So I grew up in a household that wasn't a musical theater whatsoever. I had heard of Kat. The first song I had ever heard was mongodium Rumpel teaser. And I remember doing like a talent show, damp to it a solo, because that, that Broadway recording, is just my stop leave thinking, right, yeah, yes, yeah,

[1:59] Mike Abrams: no interest one, yeah, they didn't have a they'd have a rumble teaser. They wanted to sing. So that's why they just had just one cat sing the whole song, yeah,

[2:06] Speaker 2: wild. Um, though. Anyway, that was my first time I had heard of it. But then I moved to New York City in 2004 and one of my friends was in this kind of now infamous production of cat in, I think it was called the Count Basie theater, New Jersey, where there was that, that Mustafa Lee, who the very famous Mustafa, very famous Mustafa, that I was at that performance actually okay, and was dazzled by the show. And anyway, so shortly after that, I auditioned for the UF tour five, not knowing what I was getting into. I didn't know the dance combination, and that has been the audition cut for decades. So I just kind of came in and everyone around me knew the dam, and I was learning it and picking it up. And so that's how I only got started in 2006 that way was when I joined your first

[3:01] Mike Abrams: time seeing the show was seeing one of the most famous YouTube clips of cats, yeah, of the most awfulies That did not I know the backstory of that. I did hear it was the choreography, the choreographer that went on and went on for like, an emergency injury, yeah, and, and it went viral in the cats world, for sure, and that was your first

[3:22] Speaker 2: time. And I feel like, yeah, it's such like an urban legend, like, Oh my God, no one believes me, that I thought, but I actually have the program still, and you can see my friend in the back of the video. So yeah, I saw that and and then I joined the tour. Shortly after

[3:39] Mike Abrams: that is I'm I want to talk to your friend. I've been dying to get the guy on. I've reached out to him, and he's not responding to me. Yeah, who did it? Just to hear, you know, it's such a weird story, because, like, you know, obviously it went viral, and it's like everyone pokes fun at him, but I'm like, This is an emergency cover of somebody who had to do it at the very last second, who, who is a very, very good dancer who was a choreographer, yeah, it's like, it's a very unique story that's got a weird vibe to it. I want to, I want to hear his version and but he, he's not, he's not interested in telling it to me. Yeah, totally, no. Maybe your friend will tell me from being

[4:18] Mike Abrams: So okay, so you see it, and then you, you obviously get cast as a swing in the the fifth tour. Yeah,

[4:23] Speaker 2: I was casting a swing. It was called the 25th anniversary tour, which Troy can entertain really stretched town, I swear, over like six years. But we, yeah, we were the 25th anniversary tour. I was 20 years old. I had never been a swing before, and I was the kitten swing. So my roles at the time were pouncable, most awfully Mungo, Jerry, humble, Ruth, and then later on the tour, they added Plato Macavity. Yeah, to me, I had never left the country, aside from not that Canada leading the country. But I hadn't left North America before, and our one of our first stop. Was Brazil for a month, and we also went to Chile and like, that tour was pretty amazing, and the cast is still working to this day. So, yeah,

[5:11] Mike Abrams: yeah, it's a very it was a an interesting tour, because it went for like 10 years, and it was the start of the tour was kind of wild. And then there's all these, like little moments I hear about more and more as I've talked to people throughout the years of that tour, of like, went to some cool places, or had, like, the 25th anniversary kind of version, and then it got renamed for a hot minute for something. And so it's kind of unique to hear how all the different years of that tour was slightly there. But for you, that was your first time on tours. Was first time doing a swing track like that's because that's a skill that's very different than being on every night for one role. Yeah, when

[5:46] Speaker 2: I was 18, I did my first national tour, which was second brother and we were doing, you know, like five or six cities a week, very much in the non union bucking truck touring world. Yeah. Felt like a step up. Even it was also considered a non union bucking truck tour. We certainly weren't flying in Brazil, in Chile, on that seven bride store. But yeah, I just, I didn't know about swinging at all, and so I didn't really have a strategy going in, other than to just learn everything and just constantly review it in my head. I don't know now people have note cards, iPad programs and all sorts of stuff, and I just kind of, I had to get to the point where I could just do without even thinking, but I would just review it as much as possible. Yeah,

[6:34] Mike Abrams: it's such a skill that, like, as someone who doesn't, I can't even fathom learning one show, one track, one show, one, dance. Like it's not just my skill set, yeah, to learn five, six, yeah, and then do them back and forth every night. Like I especially in cats, where I've talked to some swings who were bomb valerian Demeter. It's like you're gonna do the exact same number and you're gonna flip sides and flip lines and flip everything. Like that is just such a skill. Here's

[6:58] Speaker 2: what I'll say, though, if I was the sling dance captain of the newsy tour, and I covered 18 newsy 18, and that is a number line show, meaning we're using a number line, and everything has to be very precise, because if you're on stage left five, and you're supposed to be on stage left four, someone literally comes sliding through your legs. And if you're in the wrong spot, you're hitting people in the head like it was a very like, stressful, dangerous show if you were in the wrong spot, an 18 track is just too much to juggle, whereas cat there is no number line, there's just the painting. I'm sure someone in your podcast had spoken about that, but we use our spacing based on literally, the painting. It's interesting to me that now I'm playing a tiger, but the one of the prominent features on the stage was tied to faith, yeah, so maybe a little foreshadowing, but I would say swinging a number line show versus swinging cap. I actually found cap the easier to swing. It's a little bit more of like an amoeba of a show. You can kind of make your own choices and figure out your own pattern, to a degree, so that, I actually think, took a little bit of the stress away. But yeah, yeah,

[8:12] Mike Abrams: there's also a lot going on on stage at all times that it's not like you're the sole focus at any moment, or like you're saying with Newsies. The danger of like this has to be precise. I would assume as as tumble Brutus, you probably had some more, because you're doing the flipping and a lot more of the acrobatic stuff, that maybe there it's like a you've got to be a little bit more exactly in the right spot, or you might act flip into somebody type of thing.

[8:34] Speaker 2: Yeah, the tumbling stuff is actually easy, like they give you a lot the room. It's the solo moment that I was always like, okay, that's, that's nothing. It's more like, it's more like, remembering where you are in, you know, like Gumby cat, or remembering your Lyric to what solo line you're doing, angelical song. Yeah.

[8:54] Mike Abrams: I also thought like, what part of the train are you building? Like, are you a wheel today? Or are you the light at the top, yeah. Where are you in that? Okay, so you then move forward to regional productions. And you did misto police, yeah in Texas in Pittsburgh,

[9:09] Speaker 2: yeah Atla in Fort Worth and Pittsburgh, sealo in Pittsburgh. And Richard Stafford, who was the damn supervisor of the Broadway production for a decade, was had set the US five tour. And then he called me out of the blue and looked like, Hey, I have someone that dropped out of cap. Would you be willing to like film a little something I haven't seen you in years? So I did, like conjuring turns and a little bit of the Jellicle Ball sent at him. And he was like, great, you're hired. And then he hired me for Pittsburgh. Clo I don't know, six months later, I got to do that role twice, which is really fun. I

[9:47] Mike Abrams: love it. So you, you basically, like, all right, as a, as a, not a kid, but you know, early on, the first show you ever saw was the infamous turns, and you're like, I can do this. I got it.

[9:58] Speaker 2: We got it. I mean, I definitely was in. I was like, I'm like, a gymnast, athletic dancer, musical theater style. I'm not like, giving you, like, wild ballet. Like, that's not my my forte. I mean, I can do it, but so I thought I would be cast the wrong person, like, the entire time, and Richard Stafford, who the legend and the super kind man, came up to me in Fort Worth during tech. And he was like, Andrew, can I don't know why this, given the British accent, but he was like, Andrew, can I talk to you? What are you doing in August? And I was like, I don't know. And he was like, Do you want to do cap Adam, Pittsburgh? Say hello. So Jeff. Confirmation to believe in yourself. If someone can't do an opportunity, don't go, Oh no, this is the wrong person. No, no, me, me, me, me, me, just step into it.

[10:48] Mike Abrams: So, yeah, so that was, that was almost, what, 10 years, 810, years from when you did the tour, like there was a pretty big gap in between, yeah, but like, you did a bunch of other things between that and then going on, and then it was a pretty short year or two before the revival happens. Yeah,

[11:05] Speaker 2: yes, it was really neat. I tend to have a field trap memory for choreography, so I actually remembered nearly all of it, especially being a swing for that show. But yeah, it was, it was really it's a neat journey going from like, seeing that production in New Jersey to then being on the tour and then doing it regionally, and then, yeah, Broadway just I thought I had hung up my cat shoes. I was like, Oh God, Newsies just destroyed my body. I was 30 at the time, which is very young, but still for like, cat I can always think of like the youngest, brightest talent, yeah? So, yeah, I was pretty shocked.

[11:46] Mike Abrams: So, and then you now go in and you're doing the new choreography. So you got to be able to do both. How is that experience, especially as a dancer like to, you know, obviously, have the original and this very historic one, which many of the fans will tell you should never have been touched. And then you've got, you know, a legend, and Andy buenke Mueller coming in and doing this, this newer, you know, updated version, yeah. How? How does one learning? How is it one learning that show in the new choreography, having done it already three times in the old one, and then also, just like the differences between the two.

[12:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, it helped having the framework for sure. However, I remember we weren't eligible to be nominated for the Tony Award because we hadn't supposedly changed. You had to have, like, at least 50% of the choreography change for it count. And as someone who knows cap the original inside amount? I was like, oh, no, this is definitely more than 60% changed. Yeah. And I find it interesting because there's other choreographers who do revival that have used major pieces of other choreography and have been nominated for, like, very small dance sequence. I'm like, That's interesting anyway, um, Andy blakendler. When I think of him, I think of someone who work extremely well with the technical designers of a show. He works really well with set designer and lighting designer. Like you watch Hamilton, and it just looks like Andy of holding like a bouquet of light over the stage, and it so much of the work is done through lighting, until one of the things I appreciated about the new version was how much lighting took effect in our in our show. I mean, there were so many spiraling light sequences. I loved the new way that we uncovered Old Deuteronomy. Whenever he would, like, throw the finger light at us and we would catch them. Yeah, I think you can do so much with lighting. Where I thought the original, which was revolutionary at the time, it does just kind of look like spacecraft lighting, dark, moodiness that it didn't really like add much choreographic texture to the show. And I, when I think of doing cat within a revival, I remember like, I just be like, laying on the ground or on my knees somewhere, and you would just see, like a spiral of a lift, and like you would see an arm lift up to a light and then just descend back into the chaos. And I just, I thought that was so beautiful. Um, yeah, but I think both have their merit.

[14:30] Mike Abrams: Um, for sure, totally Yeah. And it's what's so interesting for me, as someone who doesn't know anything about dancing and never saw besides the 98 movie, any version of the original. I've only seen 2016 forward. Oh yeah, because I didn't know much about this until the revival. And that's kind of my her, my journey started was with the revival Alan Lewis, and, yeah, seeing the preview of that and and so as I talked to more super fans and like, the like, they were in it from day one, our. Passionate about the choreography. I'm like, the dance, right? You know, like, I just, I'm like, I don't know the difference between any of it. So to me, it's kind of a fun, a fun piece of it. I want to go to the story that you're told, though, because I don't think we've done a great job of fully telling tumble produce a story on this podcast. I feel like we've gotten a little, little pieces of it. But, um, because I've had a couple in the past. But what were you in in, especially in 2016 you know, you're doing the whole felony school, all this stuff you're going through. What is the tumble Brutus backstory that you had to one? What were you told and what did you have to create to kind of build your character's kind of art? You

[15:39] Speaker 2: know, I came in as a replacement being so I started rehearsal in early January of 2017 with a wonderful associate named Kim Craven and the damn captain at the time of Corey John Wyeth, a wonderkind and Claire camp, who is astonishing.

[15:58] Mike Abrams: I live, arguably, Claire, arguably might be one of the most knowledgeable cast people you'll ever meet. Oh,

[16:03] Speaker 2: really. Oh, interesting. Okay, oh yeah, to dive in with her. Um, yeah, she's wonderful. Um, I've listened to the podcast, and I've heard enough cast members talk about these, like three words that they were given Yeah. And to be honest, I think that they did save them, but to me, but, and I probably wrote them down somewhere. But that's not cap at all. To me, I'm like, great. Okay, moving on to me, it was more so Richard Stafford at Nola Studios in New York City, spending legitimately an entire week. I love people. Love saying that they went to validity school in every production of CAP I've ever seen, I have never seen anyone come close to what Richard Stafford did with us, the amount of time that we would practice for hours and actually lights up tied Richard Tesla work reminds me of this hours just learning how to go from crawling on your knees, stopping sniffing, gathering your fences and then pulling up from your spine to a standing position and why you're doing it. He would have our Grizabella leave the room, and then he would like, throw phone books around the room. We'd have to stop and react for like, a full hour. And then you'd have Grizabella enter and really teach the adult cat to, like, shoe the kittens away. We didn't even touch choreography for the first week. And I think that that getting that in your body where it is so just like intrinsically a part of your movement, it served me way more than three words when I couldn't even tell you what they were. I'm sure someone on the US tour now could say all of trouble's three words, um, but those did not track for me. Yeah, that's

[17:44] Mike Abrams: that's really interesting, that your, your version of of, how do you best portray the this character, or really, all the characters that you played was more about embodying a cat and not like this cat's personality. What was much more of that?

[17:59] Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I have, I definitely had a personality. I'm not saying that. I was just saying, like, I know that there's a lot of like, three words they or Oh, whatever that is. And that was not my journey. I did, however, do a lot of character study with humble Brutus, and I kind of chose that he was abandoned and his way of surviving the trauma of losing his his family was to just really lash out. But he is a deep love inside under all of that, so that's why he gets to like claw and be the first one to go bonkers. But then is also one of the first ones to just completely melt and go and try to touch Victoria or have the adult cats really love one tumble. So he's just a really caustic, reactive cat. He's reactive first, reflective second, but he was kind of taught to be that way. I don't even like using a gender with him, though I hate that. I'm saying that, like tumbled roots, the cat can be anything, yeah and yeah. So that's kind of where I was building a lot of my stuff from to help explain why this cat was always trying to be at the front of things, always doing these explosive, tumbling, passive, which to you know, an audience might be like, Oh, wow, flashy, damp move. But to me, I would like build up so much tension in my brain and trying to understand what was happening in a theme that my only way was to like to survive. It was to like thirst on and like, make my attention be known so that people could help me. So that was kind of where I found reasoning behind tumbled, really explosive, really dynamic, mind shifting waves around the stage.

[19:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so it's. Interesting, because, like, I have always wondered, is tumble the love child of a couple of the different cats, and you're saying, No, you were abandoned and kind of almost embraced by the Jellicle Tribe, and that's where a lot of the like, decisions and personality comes out, is because this is a adopted family. Basically, it's not the parents, yeah, and

[20:20] Speaker 2: I don't even trust the adoption prop within that like, I think I still come from the survival mode of like, I need to do everything to prove that I'm worthy, which I think is also for a lot of dancers, part of just our our life as well, that I was probably bringing into my role. But yeah, because I would sit there and I'd be like, Okay, why am I doing these things, like, why am I tumbling? Why am I running and doing these turns? Why am I exploding and sliding and blah, blah, blah. And so I just started recognizing that in my own life, why do I do X, Y and Z thing, oh, like, usually, some sort of survival technique that was thrift upon me. And so I find that if tumbled through to the entirety of the show, and in a way, I don't even think the cats, like, brought me in, per se. I think I just showed up and, like, did some crazy stuff, and they don't really always know what to do with me. And but in the end, I am. I do trust and fall into the loving and blame, especially Old Deuteronomy. Yeah,

[21:30] Mike Abrams: you're, you're like a wedding crasher, almost a wedding

[21:33] Speaker 2: crasher who was just stranded, stranded, stranded and abandoned, and is just trying to figure out all the feeling that he has going on. Yeah,

[21:44] Mike Abrams: that's an interesting parallel to it. I hadn't thought about it from that angle, for sure. I kind of like the, like, wedding crasher vibe of, like, all right, you know, I'm here. You can have enough conversations about, you know, one of the uncles or the aunts on somebody's side, and everyone's just like, yeah, sure, they're a good time. Like, come on. And so it's like, beats the adoption piece, but still allows you to be part of the party. Yeah, did you spend as much time, obviously, thinking about the character backstories for mistoolies And then when you were a swing, or was it again, much more of the dance motions and the being a cat type of, like, body movement? Well, like I said, like I said

[22:21] Speaker 2: before, it's not that I just my entire process for us four or five and regional was just like salinity. That was just like the initial ness of it all, because I can't just react differently than humans do. And so the only way for that I could even remotely begin to develop a personality, was to understand their senses and their reaction to things. So I think that's why I was saying, like when I started Broadway rehearsals, if I know I was given these three words, but I needed to that was so human and cats are not the name. Thing they're trying to say to pay to you, right? Is like we are not you, um, so for me, for my stuff, believe it was definitely, I really did try to play up that, like effortless, my theory of even though they get a big, giant dance number. I almost wanted to, like recede, in a way I kind of liked that in the movie, I kind of liked that he was just like kind of shy recess. I mean, I guess in the movie, he didn't really believe in himself. And I don't think that that kind of sounds I definitely knew what I was doing, but it was a bit more just like I arrived exactly when I meant to. I'm going to do this and that and that, and that is all I need to do. Um, interesting. I was kind of a minimalist. No stop. Believed in that way.

[23:52] Mike Abrams: Okay, yeah, the movie one was interesting because I always thought of most athletes, and most of this really does stem from the 98 movie. And, you know, Jacob brand of like, the confident and the magical and the like, very like outgoing issue, especially in their moment. And I think they also added some, like, very 1990s special effects, of like, you know, lightning and fake stuff. So I, when I saw the 2019 movie, I'm like, was the shy kind of, like reserved, like timid, most awfully, I didn't really like it, but I kind of see what you're saying, which is, it's not that, it's not a it's not like, timid and shy. It's much more of, like, tactical, almost, like, here's the stuff I need to do, and I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna do it well, and, yeah, but, but more of like, was it the extroverted introvert? You know, it's like, you're gonna go out and do your number, but then you need to go home to your, your, your wherever, you know, wherever the cats live on the side, and, like, watch some TV and kind of relax. You know how, like a Bucha

[24:50] Speaker 2: Master is just so confident in their knowing that they don't even have to say that. They just know, yeah, they just are. They just exist. Yeah? To me, that was miso, please. To me, there was no questioning. There was no need to go. So over the top, I would say, did you catch Zach downer on Broadway as missou? Please.

[25:13] Mike Abrams: I don't. So I saw he closed the so probably not. Then I could have to go look at the play bills. I have them still. I saw the second to last preview, and then almost to the date a year later. Yeah, okay,

[25:25] Speaker 2: um, Ricky Aveda grew up in it, in so astonishing I like, can't get over, like, still darned in my mind, how amazing he won. Um, Zach downer placed him and took such a different spin on it. And to me, was a bit, was a bit more aligned with kind of what I think of the role. He was almost like a surgeon on stage. Everything was so precise, and so, like I said, like this, like, just he knew exactly the amount of energy that one little moment would need to do exactly what he wanted to do. And it added this mystery, right? Because you're like, Who on earth could you do? It's like watching Roger Federer by tennis. Roger Federer, you watch Rafael Nadal and Andy ronick and all these players, they're sweating, they're running all over the the court. And Roger Federer, I swear, never break the flat. And just goes, Bing, think, think, think always goes exactly where. So everyone has this mystery of like, Roger Federer, oh, my God. Like, how do they do it? And because he already know, he just knows where it's gonna go and Miss off leave. I guess, to me, is a bit of the route here. Veteran,

[26:31] Mike Abrams: I love that. Anytime we can compare sports to cats. We lose we lose listeners for about a minute, but because

[26:38] Speaker 2: it's a tennis and figure skating, so I guess those are fairly aligned

[26:43] Mike Abrams: bot on though, of like his effort, like it's it's a perfect parallel to cause I know exactly talking about like that backhand that Federer does, doesn't even look like he swings, and it goes exactly one hand, exactly where he wants it to.

[26:54] Speaker 2: And then there's some thoughtfully though that, and they're totally right in doing it, that it is like a free ring circus. It is exhausting, it is so larger than life and wild, and the audience loves it. Yeah, you know what I mean. So it's just a different there's just different takes on it. But I, like I would really just profoundly touched by watching the Roger Federer and back down our day.

[27:19] Mike Abrams: That's, I think, beauty of the show, because you can have the same character, the same dance with slightly different takes. That doesn't change the essence of the show, but does make it a different experience for someone who goes and sees it many times. I think that's what's really cool about cats. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. Let's pivot to Life of Pi, because you went from a cat to a tiger, and also a bunch of other you puppeteered a lot of different animals. I noticed throughout watching it, amazing. Show, tell like, I know, we got a couple weeks left, and we're putting this out right away so people can still come see it. What should somebody expect when they come to see this amazing show? So Life

[28:06] Speaker 2: of Pi is based on Jan Martel book of the same title. It is, in a nutshell, about a young Indian boy who finds himself on a life boat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean with an orangutan, a zebra, a hyena and a Bengal tiger. But of course, it is about so much more than that. Pie is an irrational, infinite number. And I like to say that is exactly what the story is. There is you can watch it and take away 9000 things from it. For me, I like to view that Richard Parker, who's the name of the tiger, is Ty, and is kind of pie, infinite, beautiful, spotless, shiny soul that just goes on in every direction, and no matter how mean pi is and how many awful thoughts pi wishes upon this tiger that he didn't like, though with the tiger never leaves him and is always there for him. And I don't know if any listeners have ever felt this way, but I often feel lost and directionless and doubtful, and what am I doing and putting myself in that lifeboat in the middle of Pacific Ocean pie thinks he needs his family and food and all these things I think I need. You know, a boyfriend, money, a Broadway show, like all these things we think we need. And, you know, the universe kind of slowly has a way of stripping those things away from you and just bringing you down to, you know, the hyena, the the zebra, the sea turtle, the the orangutan, they all fade away. And in the end, it's literally. Jeff Ty and Richard Tucker in the boat. And Ty has this moment where he turns him and says, Richard Tucker, can I tell you something? I'm scared of you, but when I'm with you, I feel better. And that is that moment where you go, Oh, right, if I can just somehow figure out how to tune out all the ego voices and all the things that I think I need to be happy, and all the money and all the love and everything, and I can just hone in on myself, I do start to feel better. And then from there, pi survived. Pi tells Richard Tucker, I'm alive because of you. And then the final line of the show is, he says, I love you completely and but also within that, you know, the people interviewing pie say, like, this is silly, you were on a lifeboat with a tiger. How did you survive that? And he goes, Do you see Richard cuckoo? He was real, like eyes that penetrated your soul, peace that were so ferocious, like this scary, primal, wild being. And I think another way of interpreting that, if I think Richard Parker the tiger is pie, or we are all Richard Parker is, I think we're all scared of our potential, or many of them are. I'm scared of my my own potential. That's why sometimes don't go and do this and don't fully commit to that, and I live in this wishy washy land, because I'm actually scared of this ferocious bang Tiger inside of me. So it's a real honor. People always say, how do you do a show eight times a week? And with life apply, for the first time in my life, I go, I have to do this show eight times a week. I need to hear this story eight times a week. But yeah, my second time playing a cat on Broadway, and my second time on a rake day on Broadway, which is a whole other area, but it's a huge honor. The story, the show is so beautiful. It really is about how there are 9 million infinite possibilities of a story of how people experience something, but they all arrive at the same thing. Yeah, it's kind of your choice to what do you believe in?

[32:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I you know, it's one of those things that, like, I read the book probably in high school, and don't remember anything about it, and then saw this. And beyond, the performances are incredible, and the stage and the lighting and the way that they do the bow, and, I mean, everything about the way was set up is just so visually incredible. And so I'm like, I want people to go see it. It is a powerful story. It's a very, very cool experience. And I, you know, I just was there. Like, I know, when I walked in last week it was like, there's also, like a high school group walking in. I'm like, great. Why didn't I would have much rather go watch you all than read that book. So I do think it's like a very, again, powerful and moving story with a really, really amazing like, the stuff you do with the puppet, like as with the puppets is and the animals is so cool and so unique. And then the whole boat and the set and all the stuff moving around is just like, it's, it's fascinating to watch. So there's a couple weeks left. I hope everyone i'll link how to go get tickets in this you can get tickets. Definitely. There's rush, there's tickets. There's a lot of ways to get tickets. So so definitely go. And I want to, oh, good to go on. Mike Perry, I was gonna say I want to compare the cats to the characters in pi because it's like, one of my favorite things to do is which personality fits which characters. Yeah, I actually think these lined up a lot better than I was expecting. There's a couple that are a little bit of a stretch, but sometimes it shows I'm like, that none of these match like, none of these cats like, you can't put the cat in the heart. But yeah, I actually think that there's a couple that that line up here pretty well. Okay, so I know you said you hadn't thought about this at all. I've thought about this a lot. I'm excited to hear this is fun. Let's start with PI.

[33:53] Speaker 2: Left car with pie in terms of in in the Jellicle jump. Karen,

[33:56] Mike Abrams: yeah, so if you were gonna cast, which cat do you think Personality gives the best would would be pi like, if I'm going to say, I'm going to put this cat as the cat's personality, like their their story, who would be the best pie? I think the

[34:12] Speaker 2: easy choice in my head is to go pound, tumble or tumble, burden. But okay, but I'm also here for the ensemble. So going along the lines of what I think, tumble verdict is just reactive, non reflective cat. I could see PI being similar to that, because pi learned to be reflective, but it's kind of reacting to all the things around him. Um, what do you what do you think I

[34:37] Mike Abrams: went moncus trap because I was like, He's the one telling me the story. So I felt like he's got a little bit narrator. He's, although he was a little he's a lot less serious than monk. You know, monks very feels straight and narrow and serious and pies like very funny and has a great time. But I just, I kind of took the lens of pi is keeping me on track of the story and telling a lot of it. And that's why I felt monk is it's like monk. The one keeping us on track, telling the story thing.

[35:01] Speaker 2: I always find monkey strap to be that I would speak as a gay man. You walk into a club, and there's that person to just have all their shit together, like, to me, that is Monkey trap, and it's someone that I really, actually don't identify with whatsoever. And they're kind of someone I don't want to be around. I find pie, I guess, just because pie is 1617, in the show that I yeah in the teenager category, maybe countable. I'm gonna go count Okay, yeah,

[35:31] Mike Abrams: okay, let's do the cook.

[35:37] Speaker 2: I'm gonna say the easy choice is to go Macavity, you know, because the cook is kind of the villain of the story,

[35:47] Mike Abrams: you so I went Macavity as well. I do have Macavity fit another spot, though, so I thought, like the free boat

[35:59] Mike Abrams: got a little Buster for Jones vibe, like a little bit of humor, little bit of, like, the, you know, and then cook, and kind of a big guy, Buster Jones is a big cat. So I kind of went that route. But it was, it was between those two, because I was like, I think the Cook had two different, very different stories. There's the beginning Cook, and then there's the end cook. Yeah,

[36:18] Speaker 2: it's interesting. Um, buffer, June, by the way, is my favorite character in the entire damn cap. You can ask that is my wall one Christopher brewery and my one on tour, Chris the dolly, like buff to bur Jones. I'm the happiest performer on stage during that number I could you

[36:35] Mike Abrams: might be the only person that's ever said that. Oh my

[36:37] Speaker 2: god, is amazing. It's amazing. Anyway, I agree. I think he is. I think the cook is Macavity. And in our story for lifters, we don't know. The cook can also be interpreted as the hyena in the lifeboat of animal. But also the cook, last hyena could also be another facet of pious personality, yeah,

[37:02] Mike Abrams: so they all can kind of come back to that. So, yeah, yeah.

[37:05] Speaker 2: So I think that really, all of the cats have moments where they are to cook. I think Jenny, any dog, can be a straight up, um. And so I could see a little cook in her,

[37:19] Mike Abrams: Okay, what about let's do the parents. So Alan the father and Baba,

[37:25] Speaker 2: yeah, um, let me hear yours. Well, I think, Well,

[37:30] Mike Abrams: I went very traditional, just parents in the show. So I went Old Deuteronomy as the dad and Jenny, Annie dots as the mom. But I don't think the personalities line up as much like the mom does not feel very Jenny, it's just she's motherly, yeah? So I feel like the mom was probably more personality wise, like a jelly. Laura, yeah, I would say jelly, but that was, I think the dad, Old Deuteronomy kind of fit for the dad. But I think you could also go a skimble shanks. It's just like, again, I was going more in age on those, yeah, like personality styles,

[38:00] Speaker 2: yeah, I'm trying to think of, like, dripping away age and obviousness and thinking about thinking about Amma. Yeah, I could see Amma, the mom being like, I could see I'm not being like Kimball Shanks actually always like making sure everything's done and taking care of everyone and making sure Deuteronomy and everyone happy. Well, actually, I would do a gender swap for that one. Yeah, I like that a lot. And then Baba, the dad. I mean, you know, in the My Big Fat Greek Wedding movie, how the mom is like, yes, the husband had the family, but the woman of the neck, she wants the head turning or wherever she wanted to, Baba. Is that to me, like, Baba, yeah, okay, making decisions for the family. But really the mom is like, come over here. So I think, in a way, what character is like that? I don't know if there is one that seems to be in charge, but it actually kind of recess. I don't know. I'll come back. That's

[39:11] Mike Abrams: a good. That's a good. I don't think there is a character like that, but I do like that answer. All right, let's see the last one. Let's see

[39:20] Speaker 2: Richard Parker. Hey. Well, to me, Richard Tucker in Old Deuteronomy, I don't think of all Deuteronomy as a dad at all. I think of all Deuteronomy as, once again, the Infinite Spirit, the one, the connection I was. I was raised a small town in Pennsylvania that Hinduism was a polytheistic religion, and as I now am in a show where the lead character is Hindu, and also just growing up and becoming an adult and learning that Hinduism, as far as I can gather, is neither polytheistic nor monotheistic. All. All of the gods are the same, and they're all represent an infinite number of things. And so to me, Old Deuteronomy is that old geronimy Is everything and one thing all at the same time. Yeah, well, Deuteronomy may not even exist. Old Deuteronomy may not even be a cat. Old Deuteronomy might just literally be all of their connected thoughts coming together. Yeah, I

[40:25] Mike Abrams: get hung up on the show with lyrics, because there's just so little to work off of besides that. It's like dance number and lyrics, and it's hard to for me with staging, like I have the 98 movie and nothing else. Yeah, to, like, go back to consistently defined, and that's very much a they're gonna point me where they want me to look so old dude around me having 99 lives is where I'm like, he's just the dad of everybody. Like, there's no way that that's the case. So it's like, I've hung on to that lyric

[40:50] Speaker 2: a lot, yeah? But happiness like that song can give me a trippy headache trying to interpret it. Yeah? You ever do that, like, read the lyrics and you're like, there's

[41:05] Mike Abrams: one lyric that stuck with me, that really concerns me is macavities committed every human law or broke every human law. Because that just is, like, if you think about every human law, there's a lot that are very unpleasant to seek out, like, because he really done everything like, that's a lot of things, and that can have some very, very unique connotations that, like, we don't want to get into. And so that's the one lyric,

[41:34] Speaker 2: yeah, interesting cue that the cap would even try to compare with human law. Yeah? Human law, you know, so maybe, maybe broke the human laws, but they don't care, just like we watch a lion tear apart an antelope, and we're like, oh, that's horrifying, but that breaking human law, but not breaking cat law, um, but let me just, I just hold this up for a second. Yeah. So the moments of happiness, we have the experience, but miss the meaning and approach to the meaning restored the Aetherium in a different form, beyond any meaning we can assign to happiness. And, yeah, that's trippy. And like I said, it's trippy. It's a lot to process. And I think it it's one of those things of like, when everyone wants to be enlightened, but the moment that you go, I'm enlightened, you've missed the meaning of enlightenment, yeah, and so, yeah, but Richard Parker, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give Old Deuteronomy, but also every cat in the show.

[42:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yep, I, I like that, because that's the N word looking piece that we talked about earlier. Yeah, um, let's do some catch rapid fire. So if you could go on for one night and perform any track, whether you're capable, male, female, whatever, just if you could just do it. Who would you want to go on for one night as

[42:47] Speaker 2: tumble through this heaven there haven't just my roommate came and saw the show in 2006 and said, What would be your dream while on Broadway, when I said, tumble verdict and cab. Wow. Legit. Straight up. It happened.

[42:59] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats? It sounds like busta. First favorite. Buster hand

[43:04] Speaker 2: found favorite, love, love, love, love, love, least favorite. I tend to veer toward Jenny any dot, but okay, yeah, just like she's very much like a Dolores Umbridge, and that's not the energy I like,

[43:22] Mike Abrams: Who was your journey at the time? Oh, I've had

[43:24] Speaker 2: so many Kara fish. Was on my tour. She's amazing. And then on Broadway, I had Eloise crop and Sarah Jenkin, which were such different takes on that role. Because to me, like I said, I feel like the original version, it was the Lord thumb ridge, and then the new version of, like, the rock ant that came out of retirement.

[43:45] Mike Abrams: So that's why I was asking, because I've interviewed both of them, and there's just so fun and, like, cheery people and funny people, like they're just hilarious. And I'm like, and they do have that vibe, like, there's not, they don't play that Jenny vibe. And I'm like, yeah, how do you how do you two get do this

[44:02] Speaker 2: amazing? And that number would such an explosion. I mean, wow, yeah. And that's not I love Jenny, and I love both of them. But I would say, Jenny, yeah, colleague, my least favorite, yeah. And

[44:12] Mike Abrams: I always say, take the actor and actress. Adam. That's like, really the cat, yeah. What is your favorite song from the show?

[44:22] Speaker 2: I love there's nothing like fitting the audience and having that overture start. Nothing like it. Um, yeah, I'm gonna go overture, okay,

[44:36] Mike Abrams: if one of the cats was stranded in the Pacific Ocean, on a boat by themselves. Which one is surviving? Like, which cat has the best chance of survival?

[44:46] Speaker 2: Kind of like the barge from the movie where they were all capable. I'm

[44:50] Mike Abrams: thinking of like, if you're you're pie. Who's pie? If we're pie? Yeah, I know that barge out of nowhere,

[44:56] Speaker 2: the one that is surviving. Um, I. I think the cat who can find peace with themselves is the one who survived. So, okay, so who is that? I'm gonna say the cat that finds peace with themselves. I mean, I guess Grizabella find peace. I think, I don't think any of us choose Grizabella at the end. I think Grizabella chooses herself. I think she can accept who she is and realizes like that I'm I'm connected to this tribe, to validity, to Mike, to love, and she chooses herself, in my opinion, because I, once again, I'm very hippy dippy, into thinking that we're all connected, we're all actually understanding fabric. So Okay, gonna do it.

[45:50] Mike Abrams: I think that's, that's, that's a good transition, because that's my last question, which is, I've argued that I don't think she's the right joke choice. It's an interesting take that you think that she's just choosing herself. But if you, Andrew, are making your Jellicle choice, who are you picking and why? Well,

[46:07] Speaker 2: I think that the entire show is the movie of Grizabella like I think that the reason why Grizabella is chosen is because this is Grizabella story, and we just happen to see some of the behind the scenes things happening. She's not there. So once again, I actually think it can be any, literally any cat. You can pick any cat, and whether they figure it out on this life or their ninth life, like they will eventually, through that reincarnation process, come to come to find that they're by themselves, and the only thing they really got at the end of the day of themselves, and so they're going to choose themselves. And so who knows? Tumble Vertis, because that was my cat.

[46:57] Mike Abrams: Okay, so if I do keep track of this, if I'm putting down your vote, who am I putting down as your vote? Look to your Tommy. Grudef, because

[47:03] Speaker 2: I guess I'm from Rudy, and it's going to be my story. Am I the first?

[47:06] Mike Abrams: I don't think so. Let me see

[47:12] Mike Abrams: very, very likely. Let's see here. Do I have a tumble Brutus vote? No, I actually think he might be the first.

[47:19] Speaker 2: I don't choose tumble druidif, because I think he has these qualities that are so much more qualifying me than others. I just literally think every single cat is going to eventually love themselves and realize who they are and embrace it and get chosen to whatever the heavy time layer means to them.

[47:38] Mike Abrams: So there's the the most important question, I think, of this show is yours. I like the idea of you're saying, like, we picked Grizz, because this is Chris's story, and that's what was written for like us to see that, and that was her night. But it could be everybody, and everybody will go, I kind of go back to if this world was created, what's the criteria that gets for the choice every year? If it's an annual decision, who's going last who went last year, who's going next year? How are you like, thinking about this? Does it change?

[48:04] Speaker 2: Well, and what is time? Yeah, what is a year? Yeah, what's a year? Once again, it's, it's breaking the human law. But what's the cat law? Yeah, this could happen every hour. Like, who really knows? Maybe this is true. Maybe this is literally just, you know, dipping into grizzabel of mine for two hours, and she have to keep reliving the moment over and

[48:26] Mike Abrams: over again. Ooh, I like that. So it's Groundhogs Day of cash. Yeah. I

[48:30] Speaker 2: mean, it could be anything. I mean, anyway, I really believe in the power of infinity, so I think it could be anything. But, yeah, I'm going to love Ella, but, but I'm also going to Brutus, and I'm also going Mike, and I'm also going Andrew, and I'm going podcast listener, and I'm going, like, we're all the same thing,

[48:50] Mike Abrams: yeah, everybody gets everyone because of

[48:54] Speaker 2: the end of the day, you got to choose yourself. Something I'll just add before, because I know I can send for wrapping up is, I remember reading that T affiliate book of poems came out in the late 30s, and World War Two have broken out. And you know, I would imagine it was like bedtime storage for a lot of people in the UK, and that must have brought them a lot of comfort while there's air raids going on, going on, and all sorts of just insanity. And when I think of Angel Webber, then in the 70s, approaching kfilla widow with Trevor Nunn, and developing this musical as originally it was what like a song cycle, and then they crafted it into more of a musical. I think of the wonderment of of watching your bedtime stories come to life on stage. I think, I think that that's why I give permission, that not everything. I mean, we don't even really look like that. Uh, you know, we're not like, hunched over and crawling the whole time, but we're just kind of these, like, things bouncing off of your pillow and climbing up your walls and, like, just your the child's imagination just pouring out in front of them. How beautiful to get to watch that. And then in length of pie, you know, it takes three puppeteers to do. Richard Parker, someone's on their head, someone inside, which we call the heart, and then there's someone on the hind. And our our goal is to be as completely realistic as possible. I hope that when you watch the show, you literally are just watching a tiger. It should look mount, eat, breathe, the whole thing should look like a tiger, and in that process, you erase the puppeteers from it like you don't even really see us after, did you experience that? I've had a lot of friends, yeah, I didn't even really see even though we're very present, yeah,

[50:54] Mike Abrams: yeah. No, I didn't. I didn't notice it as much as I was kind of looking because I also was like, knowing that we were going to talk. I'm like, All right, where are where are, where are you? Yeah, but it is. You don't, you don't really realize, especially the heart, like the heart of the Tiger I was looking constantly, trying to be like, where are they in there? And it's like, very like, well done of how.

[51:14] Speaker 2: And we're not wearing, like, painted unitards or anything. We're literally wearing kind of traditional, plain Indian clothed in kind of muted color. But you know, as an audience member, you're going, I'm going to go along with the imagination of pie. I am making an agreement with these puppeteers that I am going to put my faith in them, that this is a real living animal, and there's a contract between us, and I feel like the contract between the audience and cap for at least that generation was literally going I'm finding up for bedtime story. And I think a lot of people have different theories as to why the show really took off, but to me, it's complete sentimentality of a time of survival. Um, yeah, and I think that I would love to see more shows done like that. Like, think of some of the poetry and the book than the parts of our childhood that were ritual, um, on stage. I think that could be a really beautiful

[52:18] Mike Abrams: new musical. It's living art, you know, it's, like, a very cool piece of it. And I think that's where it's hard to explain what you're gonna go see in pie, yeah, without seeing, you know, like, the thing, I was like, well, the boat's gonna crash, but like, how do you do that on stage? And it's, like, it's really, really unique, and it's what you see it, or even, you know, a clip of it, even the clips of it. Don't do it live. And

[52:42] Speaker 2: I would say most, most theater directors that I've worked with really will take a piece of stage direction in the script that's like, pi land in a lifeboat, and it's just kind of like, very shoddily done, like, Oh, that's good enough. And in life, reply, literally, every ounce of stage direction that you read we do in front of you with not much gimmick it. It's really beautiful. So I hope that that listeners can come catch it before, before we close july 23

[53:16] Mike Abrams: if you are in New York, this will come out in early July after the fourth. So you got a couple weeks to go. I'll link everything on how to go get tickets and definitely come see it. But how can people stay in touch with you, social media and keep up with everything you're doing after too? Yeah,

[53:31] Speaker 2: so I my instagram handle is at Andrew Wilson, and why? So it looks like Andrew a little funny. I'm constantly posting over there. I teach dance theater, dance and chromatic for adults in New York, Broadway Dance Center, which is actually where I'm calling from right now. It's right down the street from length of pie. But yeah, I choreograph, I teach, I performing. I exist, I struggle, I try to make sense of things every day, and ultimately, I just I try to seek joy. Yeah, wherever you are, your own joy, wherever it is. I am my own Jellicle choice, and I hope we are all each other's Jellicle choice, because it's very easy to throw our time and attention into choosing other people, especially if that was a survival technique you were raised on, like Tamil Verdun, so that and return to yourself.

[54:31] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Well, this has been super fun to talk and everything else and everyone go see the show and thank you for being

[54:39] Speaker 2: here today. Thanks so much, Mike, and thanks everyone

[54:43] Mike Abrams: else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died, the podcast breakdown, the catastrophe. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, or any of us to listen to your podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram and tick tock at the wrong cat died, or check our website, theroncatdid.com you.