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[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Satrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have a family of guests. I have had on a couple of married couples who have done CATS before, met on CATS, but today we're going to go one step further. On the U.S. National Tour Four of CATS, Helen Frank at the time was performing as Demeter and Bombalurina and met Steve Watkins, who was in The CATS Chorus and was covering Bustopher, Jones, Gus, Growltiger, and Old Deuteronomy, where they met and married on tour. Fast forward to 2014 and their daughter, Lauren, who was 17 at the time, performed with Steve in the Casa Mañana Theatre regional production of CATS and has also done CATS in other places in Vermont and regionally as well.

And they performed as Syllabub and Gus getting to do it together as a family. So I think this is the first full family of CATS I've had on. I'm excited to have all three of you here today. So welcome to the Watkins family. Thank you for joining me.

[1:06] Helen Frank: Thank you for having us. This is very, very exciting and fun for us.

[1:10] Mike Abrams: Like I said, I've had some couples that I've met on tour and I'm always start going like, all right, is it Tucker or Bombalurina? Who are the characters? Because I'm like, is it the personalities that met, that was there? But this is the first time I heard after that, it's like, oh, they met on tour. And then also father-daughter got to do it later. So that is such a unique and cool kind of piece to have a whole family having deep roots into the CATS world. But I always got to start at the beginning because to me, I was kind of blown away in 2016 when I saw CATS the first time and the US tour four, you really are around the 98 movie. I predate that 1998 movie. So when was your introduction to the show? When's the first time you saw it? And then Lauren, when was the first time you saw it? Was it a production with your parents? How did you get introduced to the show?

[2:03] Helen Frank: Well, I guess I'll start. I first saw the show when it opened in 1982. And a good friend of mine from college was in the show. We actually started in the business together. We were very lucky. We started with the bus and truck company of course, right out of college. So we were on the road with that. And then when we left that show, then she ended up getting CATS in 1982 and she was an understudy. She understudied Demeter and Syllabub and a couple of other CATS. So I went to see her in the show as Demeter. And that was the first time I saw it.

[2:44] Mike Abrams: Wow. And what was your reaction that first time?

[2:50] Helen Frank: Well, I didn't even recognize her. I wasn't familiar with the show and I couldn't recognize her with all of that makeup. And then I finally figured it out when her solo lines started. And honestly, it didn't make a lot of sense to me and I didn't really like the show that much, but I liked the visuals of it. And I loved the dancing and I loved how challenging it was vocally and dance-wise because it's a very difficult show vocally and the dancing is very difficult. And so that's why I wanted to be in it because having done a chorus and that was really the first of its kind was that where you really had to be a triple threat. But I feel like CATS stepped it up because the music was very challenging.

[3:43] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I've talked to hundreds of people and it's still confusing. Everyone who's done it, it's still confusing. Steve, what about you? When was your first introduction to the show?

[3:48] Steve Watkins: I believe it was summer of '83. It was the first Broadway show I'd ever seen in New York. I had traveled up. I was working at a theater in Raleigh run by D.N. Jones called, at the time it was Carolina Regional Theater and it's now the North Carolina Theater. And D.N. and I, she was mounting a production of A Midsummer Night's Dream and she was going to New York to pick up fabric up there in the Garment District. And one of her, she calls them sons. I'm one of her sons as well. But one of her sons is Terry Mann, who I think you've interviewed on this channel previously. And Terry was doing CATS and I'd never seen a Broadway show. So he got us house seats and it, my jaw dropped. I was astounded by the, not only the music and choreography, but the theatricality plus the audience interaction with the entire theater.

The entire Winter Garden was turned into a huge junkyard where we were invasive species in the CATS world. And got to meet Terry and went out and had a late bite to eat with him after the production. And of course he was just a rock star and incredible in the production. And from that moment on, I said, boy, I'd sure love to do that. I can't see me dancing in the show, but sure would love to do it. And then I found out there was actually a couple of non-dancing singing roles that I would be ripe for. So I started auditioning for it.

[5:35] Mike Abrams: I love it. You weren't ready to do the crotch-thusting Tugger dance moves and be out in the audience and really get after it type of thing. You're like, I like the show, but I'm ready to be more of the Gus, Bustopher, Old Deuteronomy version.

[5:49] Steve Watkins: Exactly. Even though I was 20, 25 or 26 at the time.

[5:54] Mike Abrams: I love it. I love it. And so Lauren, you're in a little different era. You get to probably grow up with it knowing that your parents ran the show. Were you obsessed with the '98 movie? When was the first time you saw it live?

[6:05] Lauren Watkins: I think the first time I saw it live was when it came to Atlanta on a tour. Maybe when I was 13. I'm not too sure. But like you said, it's kind of always been around me. And I do remember watching the movie as a kid and also watching YouTube videos of the show and listening to the cast recordings. And yeah.

[6:37] Mike Abrams: Were you prepped going in for what you were about to see, having deep roots of it with your parents being able to kind of give you the heads up? Or are you like the three of us out here who went the first time, literally not sure what we're going to see and had to kind of go in blind?

[6:55] Lauren Watkins: I knew that it was amazing dancing and music and a spectacle. But I didn't really know the extent of the story behind it until I did the show myself.

[7:13] Mike Abrams: Okay. I want to fast forward to those moments now. So now US tour four, you get cast into the show and you've seen it. You're familiar with at least kind of the idea. You've got to learn the dance number. But what was your first kind of reaction of the rehearsal process of understanding this is a much deeper plot than you probably caught seeing it on stage?

[7:39] Lauren Watkins: That's a good question. I was the first female replacement in that fourth national. And I didn't have that advantage of having that long rehearsal process. So I had two weeks to learn the show. So if I had gone in as an understudy, I probably would have had more time. But I was a replacement for someone who was injured. So I had two weeks. And so it was mostly about the choreography, a brief overview of the character of Demeter, and the relationship with Rome. And then, so I felt like the character then, and the story all then came together after, but there was a big push to get me right into the show in two weeks.

[8:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah, interesting. So I feel like every time I've heard someone who's had that scenario, it's always like, just don't get somebody hurt. Get in the right place at the right time, do the dance. And then we'll figure out all the nuances of the relationships as you go. But that first part is just like, just don't get anybody hurt.

[8:53] Lauren Watkins: Exactly. Exactly. Because there are a lot of traffic patterns that are critical to be in the right place at the right time. And that was always, it's more like a stop, look, and listen, and make sure you don't run into somebody. And just get through the numbers.

[9:13] Mike Abrams: And Steve, what about you? Was your introduction a little bit different? How much more of the process did you get? And also being able to, having to cover multiple characters, you have to be able to have the knowledge of a little bit of the backstory of each, especially Old Deuteronomy, who's our decision maker here of the most important choice.

[9:31] Steve Watkins: Absolutely. The first role that I've learned was Gus. And as Helen indicated, I was dressed in brown, put in the back row during the dance numbers and told, please don't break any of the dancers while you're out there. I did a pretty good job of that, I think.

[9:51] Helen Frank: You did, yeah. I broke zero dancers during my time on stage.

[9:57] Steve Watkins: Thank goodness. The choreography, just learning the choreography was completely overwhelming. But so that took about four weeks. But in that process, the dance captain, the assistant dance captain kept reiterating backstory, interactions, relationships between the cats. And we did a lot of improv during the rehearsal sessions with all the understudies. So it was very beneficial. It was about a six-week period before I ever got on stage, but we did a lot of rehearsals and run-throughs of the show during that period of time. And it was a wonderful inundation of the overall story. And part of it was developing your own interactions and your own ideas of interactions with the cats. Because every time we went on stage, usually for me as an understudy, it would be with a different cast, generally, sometimes with a different Jellylorum as my partner with the Gus Graltiger sequence.

And it was just a wonderful acting experience to create the show every night with someone. And she was put to the test every time too, whoever that was. I think the first was Alice Lynn, but they were very generous and welcoming, a very welcoming tribe for newbies.

[11:33] Mike Abrams: So when did you two start dating on tour? Was it on tour? Because you met on tour. It was, yes. I met doing a...

[11:48] Steve Watkins: Helen, um, the first week I got there, um, and, uh, that was March of 1989, uh, backstage, the Heinz Theater in Pittsburgh. You familiar with that?

[12:05] Mike Abrams: I, I, I kind of assumed Heinz when you said Heinz, it's gotta be Pittsburgh just cause they have, they've named everything in that city, but no, I'm not familiar with the theater.

[12:13] Steve Watkins: Exactly. And, uh, we just over the next six, eight months, we became friends and, uh, ask her, you know, to go grab a beer after the show or something. And, uh, and then things started to develop. Okay. So my, I, what I find is fascinating on this is because there's been couples that I've, I've heard of them come from this. There's been a lot of Tugger Mistoffelees. There's been a lot of Tugger Bombalurina. It feels like Tuggers and all these have been a lot of Tugger, uh, teasers, rumble teasers, but the Gus or even old Deuteronomy and a Bombalurina aren't necessarily a love interest you get on stage. So how did, as you started to, you know, like formulate your relationship, did you notice that your stage dynamics changed and did other people start to notice of like, huh, there seems to be a little bit more going on here between this Gus and Bombalurina than any other Gus and Bombalurina we've ever seen?

[13:14] Helen Frank: Uh-huh. Well, you know, that's interesting because our characters didn't really have that. We weren't that close proximity to each other very much on stage.

[13:26] Steve Watkins: As much as I tried.

[13:28] Helen Frank: Yeah. But, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, as Bombalurina, you know, it was, you know, adulation. Oh, he's so fun. We love him. He's so sweet. And then as Deuteronomy, you know, just really love him. And so, but as far as it, it Bombalurina's relationship with his characters were not the same as Bombalurina and Tugger, for example, or Mistoffelees. So, yeah.

[13:57] Steve Watkins: Unfortunately. Yeah. As much as I tried, Mike, you're, yeah, you're on stage kind of over there trying to figure out how to, you know, tell your, tell your story as Gus looking a little bit further one way or the other.

[14:11] Mike Abrams: Okay. I, I, every time I ask this, I'm like, you're all professionals. Like, of course, you're not going to let that get in the way. You're going to go do your job. But I'm also like, huh, these, these two characters shouldn't be together at all. Like this doesn't fit. And then knowing you are off stage and there's been a couple like that, it's always kind of a fun, like I look at everything from the lens of the characters in the stories. And I'm like, these, these don't fit. Even Bustopher makes it really fun too. Like you're in the Bustopher costume. I'm like, I don't think that there's like, I'm not sure how Bombalurina thinks about him at all. It was a love story that was never meant to be.

[14:43] Steve Watkins: You could have added it. This was, this was a chance.

[14:46] Helen Frank: That's true. That's true. Could have changed the dynamic.

[14:50] Mike Abrams: So I want to fast forward to doing it in, um, in Texas. So how did you like, how did you decide and come up? I know it was a Richard Stafford production and I know that, you know, y'all worked with him. So was it just that you saw it and was like, huh, we could audition to this together? Like, was there a conscious effort that this might be something you're able to do together?

[15:10] Helen Frank: I actually saw the post on a play, on Playbill on the website. And, and I saw that it was Richard and at Casa Manana and I was, and I brought it to Steve's attention. And, uh, and do you want to take it? And it turns out that the executive producer at Casa Manana is Wally Jones, who is Deanne Jones' son, real son, not a fake son like me. He's a real son. And, uh, he worked at North Carolina theater for many years. And then he went down and took over the, uh, the theater in Casa Manana in Fort Worth. And so I contacted Wally and said, what would you think about our daughter auditioning for that production? Cause she was, uh, Lauren, correct me if I'm wrong, senior in high school. And he said, well, one of you would need to be with her because she's, uh, basically a minor.

I think she was 16 at the time, but, uh, 16 or 17, maybe she was 17. Um, and, uh, so Helen and I drew straws and I got the short one. And, uh, so, um, I went down with Lauren, she and I flew down in December to audition, uh, into, into the first ice storm in North Texas in quite a while, I guess. And, uh, they, they cast me, uh, which was a huge surprise. I figured they would cast Lauren, but, uh, I think I auditioned for old Deuteronomy as well as for Gus. And they, they said, um, we, we would prefer you, we have another guy who would, uh, it was tremendous, uh, local, um, gentleman, and he did an excellent job with Deut. And, uh, so I got to do, uh, Gus and Bustopher and Growl Tiger.

[17:01] Helen Frank: Okay. I haven't, I haven't, I haven't did that yet. There's a little side story in here if you want to hear that. So we also contacted Richard, you know, he's a very sweet man. And, and we said, you know, maybe, you know, what do you think about one of us being in the show? And so he said, and so Richard said, my husband is so sweet. He didn't want to embarrass me, but I think it's hysterical. And so Richard said, Helen, we had proposed to Richard that Helen and Lauren come down and do the show together. He said, Helen, in, in the most loving way possible, I'm afraid that your ship has sailed. And I said, you know, Richard, actually you're right. I don't know how I would have done the show. It probably would have killed me.

And so, and I just thought it was hysterical, but you know, of course, Steve and Lauren were like, mom, you so totally could have done the show. But you know, it was funny. I was not, I was not, you know, mad or, you know, I, it was totally fine. And I was super happy that Steve couldn't do it with Lauren.

[18:09] Steve Watkins: Yeah. It's funny to hear you say that though, because there is, there's been a couple of conversations. I know a couple other podcasts do this as like a game where they talk about what shows would you want to do a career of and Cats is usually a good answer because you definitely could start as a Tumblebrutus and a kitten and then do one of, you know, the dance numbers. And it's so serious. I was like, was, was Grizabella just not on the table for you? Like, is that not, that's only 15 minutes on stage.

[18:34] Helen Frank: No, that is not a song that I could do.

[18:42] Steve Watkins: Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, so this is, so then it's just, it's Gus, we're going to have, we're going to bring on Gus. And then you got the, that was the short end of the, of the stick there to be the parental guy, parental guidance there. This is basically all because you knew Lauren was going to be ready to go and she needs to be in the show.

[19:01] Helen Frank: And I had major doubts about my capabilities after 25 years. It was, it was, it was honestly the first time I had auditioned in a quarter century and I was so nervous. I was pacing the floor like a, you know, like a 10 year old and Lauren was cool, calm and collected. She gets waves through to the dance call. And, um, but, uh, were you a package deal? Lauren, were you, were you going to do it by yourself? If they both, if they didn't get cast, if you're just like, nah, it's good. Like you can hang out in the hotel. I'll still go do this.

[19:31] Lauren Watkins: I truly felt like it would be him getting cast and I would not get cast. So I, a package deal, I'm not really sure. I mean, I, I was just thinking, well, he could do Gus and, and we could go and watch him, but, um, yeah.

[19:52] Mike Abrams: So Lauren, I want to hear from you a little bit about what your experience was learning the plot of the show as a 17 year old and, you know, syllabub is, is, uh, you know, a very kitten youthful character, but you're also then learning this whole underlying story that is a little dark and probably not clear in the 1998 movie that you're watching that you're growing up and not quite in the dances. So did you have any aha moments where you're just like, Ooh, wow. I did not realize that, especially knowing some of the characters that your parents played?

[20:15] Lauren Watkins: Yeah. Um, before I went to Texas, um, to learn the show and I did end up going out about a week early to do, um, kiddie school and to start learning the show. They had the people who had never done the show before come out a little earlier so we could have more time to, to do kiddie school and to start learning the choreography and everything. Um, but even before that, um, my parents talked to me about the story and some of the relationships with the cats. And one of the, a theory that was, that was mentioned by my mom is, um, the collar that syllabub wears is very similar to Bombalurina's collar and the relationship between them, um, yeah, can be developed and interpreted in a few different ways.

[21:22] Mike Abrams: I'm curious to hear from you all about the first time you go on stage together, like what is that kind of family moment? Like was, did everyone come like who was in the audience and what was that experience like the first time you get to kind of perform together?

[21:35] Steve Watkins: I could barely keep it together. It was, uh, yeah, it was, um, very, uh, it was just a very moving moment for me. Um, just to see how far she had come in 17 years, uh, in cause she'd started these, I believe when she was three, three or four, probably one way about three or were you four? I think I was four. I don't know. It's hard to remember. I think it was four because I didn't want to start you too young.

[22:10] Helen Frank: Uh, I thought, I thought four was, was a good, a good time. I thought you started them at three and then they're sick of it by the time they're six.

[22:20] Steve Watkins: Yeah. She was, uh, you know, inundated in dance class and vocal lessons. And, uh, she worked with some very good, teachers in, um, middle school and high school, uh, that as well as choreographers who, uh, put her on stage in sometimes, uh, challenging and leading roles. And so to see her in a professional production, uh, in a three quarter round stage at a very prestigious regional theater was, and, and being able to see it up close and personal was, uh, just an incredible moment.

[22:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's also got a little, like, it feels like Gus, right? Like your, your story is reminiscing on stage and in its own sense. So you're kind of getting to, uh, live that in a real, like true sense. Like that's, that's gotta be kind of almost a little strange. Like it's usually, you know, you're out there performing, but this is kind of does fit, fit almost a lot more within the story of the, of the character.

[23:21] Steve Watkins: Absolutely. I tell everybody, I really live Gus. Now I I'm in telecommunications and I umpire baseball, but back in the day, if you give me a tooth full of gin, I'll tell you some stories here.

[23:36] Lauren Watkins: Love it, I love it. I was gonna say, just don't embody too much of Bustopher, you know, you gotta keep that at bay.

[23:43] Steve Watkins: Hip-hop is, yes.

[23:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And Lauren, for you, what was like, being, you know, on stage with your dad, what was that like?

[23:53] Lauren Watkins: It was so surreal and magical. I had not seen my parents perform in a musical before. And growing up, my dad and I would sing at church and at home sometimes, but I'd never seen him perform in the show. So getting to be on stage together was amazing. And at the end of the show, when the CATS, after the bows, when the CATS sort of dance offstage, I think this was for the very closing show, but I remember, I remember what it looked like vividly. But we were dancing together and then he picked me up and twirled me and then he carried me offstage. And that's one of my favorite memories from that show. And it was such a nice sort of cap, a sort of bow on the whole project.

[24:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah. What a, I mean, what a memorable moment, such a cool family thing and something you probably just don't even expect. There's not a lot of shows or situations that even allow you that opportunity and you get that here. And then I just, before we go to some, some rapid fire and have some fun with like some of the plot and characters, I want to hear a little bit. I know getting to do Bomb Ballerina later, how much did you, or did you get to go and did you pick your mom's brain of like, all right, you did this for years. Like, what do I need to know? How much, like, how much did you add and get to kind of, to, to embody, you know, your version of Bomb Ballerina?

[25:32] Lauren Watkins: I feel like I completely lucked out because she had developed the character so much. She did it for nine years. And so she had so many little moments and so much backstory and relationships with the characters. And there are so many, I mean, the show is huge and there are so many characters and so many opportunities to interact and just develop the story more. And it was so helpful the way she would explain to me how Bomb Ballerina felt towards the different cats. And of course, as the show develops in the rehearsal process and even throughout the show, I could have my own ideas with the cats, but it was so, so helpful what she told me beforehand.

[26:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's, it's gotta be like, most people don't go in with being able to kind of have, you know, like, I've kind of joked that my podcast can maybe give some people a little bit of hearing from it, but you're only getting like 30, 45 minutes. And here you can go to your parent and get the full, I did this for years, rundown, which is again, so unique and gotta be again, a family, your family of cats, whether you, whether you realize or not, it's, it's, it's a huge part of, of your, your, your life. And, and, uh, a piece that you got to all kind of do as a core memory together, which is again, really unique. You just don't get that in many things.

[27:13] Mike Abrams: We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[27:18] Mike Abrams: Okay, I want to do some rapid fire, which won't be that rapid because we have three people, but standard questions. Um, if you could go on, we're, we're going to take the ship's not sailed. If you can go on for any cat, any, you know, whether it's male, female age, height, you can sing it, you can dance it. If you can go on for one night as any cat, who would you each want to perform as?

[27:39] Steve Watkins: Who wants to go first?

[27:40] Lauren Watkins: You.

[27:41] Steve Watkins: I want to be Tugger.

[27:42] Mike Abrams: Tugger. I love it.

[27:45] Steve Watkins: I just, because yeah, I just think that that's just a, you know, a wild, that would be just really fun to let loose like that.

[27:52] Mike Abrams: Okay. Follow up Tugger question. Would you go, when you go out into the crowd and you're going to like harass some person in the audience, are you looking for someone who's ready to play along? Or are you looking for someone who's like, Oh, don't pick me? Like, who do you want?

[28:05] Steve Watkins: Um, you know, I would probably go with somebody who's ready to play along.

[28:10] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[28:11] Steve Watkins: Yeah, definitely. I wouldn't want to put embarrass somebody like that. I think.

[28:15] Lauren Watkins: Yeah.

[28:16] Steve Watkins: That's Tugger. Tugger wouldn't care.

[28:18] Mike Abrams: Yeah, no, but, but, but Helen would.

[28:20] Mike Abrams: Okay. Who wants to go next?

[28:24] Helen Frank: If I got to choose one, I, I think Macavity is just a fun role. Uh, Plato Macavity. Um, it's, it's integral in the show and he appears a number of times, obviously, but he's just the kind of outcast bad boy, ill razor that comes in and, uh, just blows up the set basically. Uh, and I, I just, I think that would be a fun role to do.

[28:53] Lauren Watkins: I would love to do Skimbleshanks. I love the number. I love the music, his cute little vest, his orange unitard and the train and everything about it. I love Skimbleshanks.

[29:08] Mike Abrams: Those are great. I was waiting for you to say a mongoose chapter. I was like, did you all just pick the three brothers? The family picked the three brothers was going to be too on the nose if you did that. Um, okay. What is, um, who are your favorite and least favorite cats? So I want to hear both. I got to hear who do you love and who bugs the daylights out of you.

[29:28] Mike Abrams: Wow.

[29:30] Steve Watkins: Who wants to go first?

[29:32] Lauren Watkins: Um, I feel like, I feel like I'm biased, but I can't help it. I love Bombalurina and Gus and I, of course I love my parrot. Of course. And maybe it's, maybe it's, um, I don't know, but just the two, maybe it's because I know so much about both of those characters because I've heard about them so much. Um, but those are my favorites Bombalurina and Gus, but I'm not, okay. I'm not letting you off the hook for least favorite.

[30:10] Lauren Watkins: My least favorite is, um, sorry, is Jellylorum because the, the part of the song where she like during the Gus song where she like scratches him, that always makes me, Oh, it gives me the heebie jeebies. I don't like it. I can't, I can't watch.

[30:35] Mike Abrams: I, that is a cat that is very rarely mentioned on the dislike side. So I love a new answer. I think that's great. Um, I, yeah, more power to, to adding some fuel to the fire here.

[30:47] Steve Watkins: I would have to go with my favorite cat is Grisabella.

[30:52] Lauren Watkins: Oh no.

[30:53] Steve Watkins: Which is, yeah.

[30:54] Steve Watkins: I'm going to be good for my last question.

[30:57] Mike Abrams: I know, but I, I, I, such empathy for that broken, frail, uh, cast away. Um, I, I always kind of, and, and, uh, also coming at it from a Gus or a old Deuteronomy vantage, uh, a particular, um, empathy for, for, um, for Grisabella.

[31:25] Mike Abrams: All right.

[31:26] Steve Watkins: Least favorite.

[31:27] Helen Frank: Oh gosh.

[31:30] Helen Frank: Tough to say Cassandra.

[31:35] Helen Frank: I just, I don't know. I just, uh, not a big fan of the, of the Siamese. Plus she's such a beautiful dancer. So I got a lot of, she has such beautiful lines.

[31:54] Steve Watkins: I, I used to, um, just, uh, look at her and when she comes down for her bow, at one point, she would just kick her legs straight up in the air and hold it. And I'd go, wow, that hurts. And I'm very jealous and you can't do both legs in the air at the same time.

[32:15] Mike Abrams: What's wrong?

[32:17] Helen Frank: I, uh, yeah, I love it. So I would, uh, for me at that, her Siamese parts, it doesn't exist in the versions I've seen. So I, um, it, it got cut for sure in, um, in the revival. So that's, it's, but Cassandra is still in there. It's just that particular section isn't anymore. But, um, yeah, I think that's, that's good.

[32:37] Mike Abrams: And I love the randomness. The, my answer is it even exists in your show either. And my answer was Peter, who is Gus's just ensemble dancer from the 2016 revival. Just cause I don't like that it was named Peter, which is weird. It's just like no need to name like the most basic generic male name. Sorry to all my Peter listeners out there, but like, it's just a, it's not a cat's name. It's like you've got Mastoffelees and Rum Tum Tugger and McCavity and then Peter.

[33:02] Steve Watkins: John.

[33:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[33:05] Mike Abrams: All right. What do you, what do you got?

[33:07] Helen Frank: Okay. I think my favorite chair. Well, of course I, I, I, of course I love bomb. And that was the, the when I saw the show, that was the role that I wanted. Um, and, and so, but I would say if I'm not picking bomb, I would, Gus Graltiger is my favorite character. I just love it.

[33:27] Steve Watkins: Yeah.

[33:28] Helen Frank: I love the story and the energy and, and that whole arc of this, of him, of his character. And as far as my least favorite, I can't even think of the least favorite cat.

[33:42] Mike Abrams: You've got to have one.

[33:43] Helen Frank: They're all family, but you still have that one family member who drives you nuts, right? Like that's, that's why I look at this.

[33:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[33:49] Helen Frank: Um.

[33:53] Helen Frank: Corcopath.

[33:54] Mike Abrams: Just name, name, name somebody.

[33:57] Helen Frank: I mean, I don't, I was going to say Grizz maybe, but I, but I don't know if that's quite, quite right. Um, but gosh, um, least favorite cat.

[34:10] Helen Frank: I, uh, I, I, I honestly can't think of a least favorite cat.

[34:15] Mike Abrams: I'll accept, I'll accept your Grizz vote. Cause that's better for my question at the end.

[34:19] Mike Abrams: Okay. We still got two more before we get there. Um, favorite song from the show.

[34:24] Steve Watkins: For me, definitely Macavity.

[34:27] Lauren Watkins: Oh, absolutely.

[34:28] Steve Watkins: Yeah. I, I agree. Uh, as, as gorgeous as memory is, um, I have always thought that the, uh, um, addressing of cats that Deuteronomy sings off the tire is the perfect recap of the last two hours.

[34:51] Lauren Watkins: Yeah.

[34:52] Mike Abrams: That's a great one. Laura, what about you?

[34:54] Lauren Watkins: I love the overture. I love, um, it builds, it's so exciting and it's a great song to run to if you ever need to, to light a fire.

[35:04] Mike Abrams: Oh, okay.

[35:06] Lauren Watkins: Yeah, definitely the overture.

[35:08] Mike Abrams: Love it.

[35:09] Lauren Watkins: If I could run, I would definitely play that.

[35:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah. As I say, sitting here as someone who's slowly working, running and training for a half marathon, I'm like, all right, I had not put their overture in my mostly hip hop playlist to keep my energy up. But now I'm like, Oh, that actually makes a lot of sense.

[35:25] Steve Watkins: Ep143 Steve is an umpire. As a baseball umpire, which cat do you think would be the best baseball umpire?

[35:42] Helen Frank: Munkustrap, no doubt. He's very calm, cool, collected, poised, unless one of the players is Rum Tum Tugger, and he loses it a little bit with that particular coach or player. But I have to go with Munk on that.

[35:59] Lauren Watkins: I agree. I think that's the right answer. As I thought about this, when you emailed, I was like, I always throw one fun one in. I'm like, what's the fun one to put a cat in a different scenario? I was like, all right, who's going to be this? And yeah, I think that's where my head went to immediately. But then I started thinking, all right, who would they all be rooting for? Who would be the best general manager? Who's actually going to hit? I had Bustopher Jones as my designated hitter. He's not running, but he's going to hit.

[36:28] Steve Watkins: Oh, he doesn't have to run if he puts it over the fence.

[36:31] Helen Frank: Yeah, leading off is Mustafa, probably. He's going to be fast and speedy. I spent way too much time thinking about this, so we probably don't need to go any further.

[36:40] Steve Watkins: I have three games tomorrow morning that I'm playing, and I'm going to put on the Munk makeup.

[36:46] Helen Frank: Put on the Munk makeup. Yeah, I would love to see the parents' reaction or the fans' reaction if you came in Munk-ish Traps makeup and then put on the... They would not understand. Let's just leave it there.

[37:02] Mike Abrams: Okay. Million dollar question. My whole podcast centers around, I've argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the right choice. So I want to hear from all three of you. I want to hear if you are making the decision, who are you picking and why? And let's give some defense and have a little healthy debate. But we also have an old dude around me, so I also have some questions about the decision-making process, depending on who you pick. If you all don't pick Grizabella, we're just going to move on, and I'm going to be happy and hang up on you. But who wants to go first?

[37:36] Helen Frank: Well, I'll go first because I picked Grizabella.

[37:38] Mike Abrams: You're picking Grizabella?

[37:42] Helen Frank: Absolutely. I've always thought...

[37:44] Mike Abrams: Your least favorite cat?

[37:45] Helen Frank: Yeah, yeah. I always thought that she should be the one to go. Yeah. Okay. But I felt that she had sand and she was tired, and she was ready to start again with whatever other lives.

[37:55] Mike Abrams: Gus isn't tired?

[37:59] Helen Frank: Yeah, but he... No, because I feel like with... Yes, he's tired, but he still is enjoying living in the past.

[38:03] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[38:06] Helen Frank: And I didn't feel like Griz was still enjoying... That she was done.

[38:12] Mike Abrams: Okay. And if she comes back as a different Jellicle life, maybe Helen will like her then.

[38:18] Helen Frank: Yeah. All right. I got one Grizabella. I'm still going to try to change her mind here while we finish, but who wants to go next?

[38:25] Lauren Watkins: Well, I was going to say Gus, because his body is hurting, and it just seems so sad. But after my mom said that he's still enjoying living in the past and enjoying his time in the tribe, that completely changed my...

[38:48] Mike Abrams: Now, don't let her scare you.

[38:49] Lauren Watkins: No, I didn't. She's so right, though. Oh, so now I think Griz, because if she comes back as a new cat, yeah, she was ready to go. And I don't think Gus is ready to go.

[39:01] Mike Abrams: All right. Well, I'm going to hear one more vote here, and then I'm going to start giving some defense of my theory here. And I don't want you to think it's a unanimous decision by any means. And, you know, yeah, you know, yeah, Gus is tired, but he still enjoys the corner pub where he can spin some yarns for a shot of hooch. I think the cat who should have gone is Old Deuteronomy.

[39:41] Helen Frank: Great answer. I feel like he has earned right. And I can't honestly say the wrong cat died. And did she really die? Or did she ascend? But that's another podcast for another day.

[40:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. So let me ask some of my follow-up questions, because I do... And I know we're... I totally understand the redemption arc in the story. Like, I have no qualms with that. I have no qualms with that as the main plot of the musical. I think you tell a great story, you teach a great lesson. Where I have the struggle is, and I think, Steve, to your point, is, is she dying or not? But I'm like, she just sings this beautiful thing about being welcome back to the family and how she wants to be back part of this group that she's been abandoned. And then it's like, and then let's just kill her. Versus let's let her go next year. Let's let her have a year with the family, go to some birthday parties, have a good time.

Like, why can't she be next year's choice? So that's kind of my first question. But I think my bigger question is, and this is an Old Deuteronomy question, what is the criteria every year? Because if it's, is there a redemption story happening next year? Was there a redemption story last year? Is there another exiled cat that's going to come back next year? Like, what is the Jellicle choice each year?

[41:06] Steve Watkins: Perhaps. I think it's a matter of mind melding of everyone, kind of like the selection of the Pope, where it has to be unanimous. So everyone, except for, I guess, Macavity, selected Grizabella. And Victoria was the first one who was brave enough or stupid enough to reach out and actually touch her. And it swayed everyone else's hearts and minds to join in on that choice.

[41:55] Helen Frank: I, the Pope thing just got a visual in my head because I'm thinking, like, when she ascends to the Heaviside Lair, you do the big fog machine. It's literally, literally white smoke. Like, you literally have a white smoke moment of we've selected our choice.

[42:08] Steve Watkins: Yeah.

[42:09] Mike Abrams: Okay. For Old Deuteronomy, who's taking over if he is your choice? Who's next year's decider? Is it Monk?

[42:17] Steve Watkins: I would say it would be Monk, although Tugger would have probably thrown a wrench into the proceedings, but ultimately acquiesced and enjoyed his friend slash brother slash nemesis running the show and overseeing that ascension, that selection.

[42:43] Mike Abrams: I love it. What would change your mind on the Grizabella votes?

[42:51] Helen Frank: She wouldn't marry to Gus.

[42:56] Helen Frank: She doesn't want to kill Gus because she's married to Gus. So that's the problem. I don't know. I just felt that Griz is such a frail character. Had she not seemed so pathetic in her song, and maybe that would have convinced me that maybe she still had some time left.

[43:21] Steve Watkins: So I'll throw you my idea that I'm actively pushing every regional theater that I talk to try to do. I want an Edwin Drood-style finish to the show. I want an audience vote. I want a different person every night. I know they've done it in Chorus Line before. I know it's happened in a Chorus Line production before. I know it's out there. I know that The Really Useful Group allows some tinkering with the show now because there's a Ballroom Cats coming in New York next year. So it's in the realm of possibility, and I want an audience vote, and I want the cast to be hardcore positioning for it. I want your entire dance studio to come and vote for Tumble Brutus one night, and all of a sudden he gets to go up. I think there's a world where you can really have some fun with this.

[44:09] Mike Abrams: That is great, and produced and directed by Mike Abrams. I'm ready. I couldn't tell you the first thing about how to do dancing or where to stage or anything else I couldn't sing, but the idea. I can stand there and help you figure out exactly who's going to go each night and why. We'll work on the tech. If they could do audience vote in American Idol with people pushing buttons, we could pull out our phones real fast and vote.

[44:37] Steve Watkins: Oh, please. Absolutely.

[44:38] Helen Frank: Yep. Rig all the chairs with one of those little buttons.

[44:42] Mike Abrams: We're ready.

[44:44] Steve Watkins: I'm ready for it.

[44:45] Helen Frank: I think that's fun.

[44:47] Mike Abrams: I'm going to make my debut as a director. Not even director. I need help on 99.9% of the rest of the show, but I can help with just telling each character what relationship they should play, and I can help with making the decision at the end of a different choice every night. I would assume Grizabella's going to win a couple nights because you're going to hear "Memory." The story still lands. I've changed nothing else except for who gets picked.

[45:14] Helen Frank: Oh, yeah. That would be fun. That's a great idea.

[45:18] Mike Abrams: That's my mission.

[45:18] Lauren Watkins: I'd go see it.

[45:19] Helen Frank: Me too. Absolutely.

[45:21] Mike Abrams: You know more directors than I do, so if you talk to any of them ever, just plant the seed of like, there's this really good idea I heard, and I'm not hard to reach.

[45:33] Helen Frank: We know we're going to find you, Mike.

[45:35] Mike Abrams: Easy. Easy to reach. Well, this has been super fun. Such a cool experience to hear from all of you and all the different productions of the show you got to do and getting to do it together, which is really cool. How can we stay in touch on social media, or if anything else you're doing? This might be a Lauren-specific question, but I want to make sure that if there's any other things that you're working on, people can find out and stay in touch.

[45:59] Lauren Watkins: Thank you so much. I'm on Instagram at Lauren three underscores Watkins.

[46:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah, my parents are on Instagram too, but mostly just for like contact sort of things, but if you would like to contact them, would you guys like to?

[46:19] Helen Frank: I haven't posted anything yet on Instagram.

[46:22] Steve Watkins: You're just watching. Just you watch on Instagram. Okay, well, we won't link those if there's nothing to see, but Lauren will link yours so that people can find you and stay in touch on any future shows you're doing and other stuff you're doing. Thank you.

[46:36] Helen Frank: Amazing. This has been so fun. Thank you all for taking the time to hop on and record with me.

[46:41] Steve Watkins: Well, thank you. This was really, really enjoyable.

[46:43] Helen Frank: This has been a blast, Mike. Thank you so much.

[46:46] Lauren Watkins: Thank you.

[46:47] Mike Abrams: Awesome. All right. Thank you all. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown, The Cat Statutory. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and threads at The Wrong Cat Died, or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.