This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Stash. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have two amazing guests. They met in 1987 on the US National Tour 4 of Cats, and they are now married. She was on tour as Syllabub, and he was working on the tour at the same time, and then has continued his Cats journey as well. So I'm excited to have another Cats couple here. Welcome, Kevin and Leslie Harvey, and thank you for joining me.

[0:38] Kevin Harvey: Thanks for having us.

[0:40] Mike Abrams: I always love hearing the couples that kind of form on tour, but usually I start from the lens of what characters were they, and should those characters be a couple or not? And so I kind of like the idea of here is that you were Syllabub, and you weren't on the tour in terms of like, you weren't Tugger, because it seems to be a lot of Tugger marriages. Tugger seems to be always one of the two. But you were working on the tour. But before we get into your connection and meeting on tour and that US Tour 4, I always have to start with the beginning, your history of Cats. When was the first time you saw it? Because you predate this 1998 movie. Les, I'll leave it to you.

[1:20] Leslie Trayer: I'm actually trying to think. When was the first time I saw it? I think I heard the auditions were coming to Chicago. And I knew someone in the cast. And he told me there's a part that's perfect for you. So I went to see the show.

[1:44] Kevin Harvey: That was the second national just for.

[1:45] Leslie Trayer: Okay. The second national. I went to see the show, and I think that must have been it. So it must have been like 1987.

[1:54] Mike Abrams: And so you went and saw it. So you saw the national in Chicago. What was your reaction the first time you saw it?

[2:01] Leslie Trayer: Well, I loved it because being a dancer, I was so attracted to the dance part of it. I'm not so sure that I understood any story whatsoever. But I just was visually so stimulated by costumes, the wigs, the dancing, the music. I just loved all of it.

[2:26] Mike Abrams: And Kevin, what about you?

[2:28] Kevin Harvey: So when I first became aware of it, my dad was working at Broadway in the early 80s when I became aware of it. He was a Broadway stage manager. And he had talked about it. A friend of mine saw it in Los Angeles where I was living at the time and said, it's just this amazing show. You got to see it. It's unbelievable. And you have to remember that back in 1984, 1885, it was still two years after it opened in London, or three years after it opened in London, it was groundbreaking. It was so different than anything anybody's seen. So anyway, I had heard about it. I had never seen it. And when I got the job to actually do the merch, I saw the bus and truck when I was working as a PA on Broadway. I still had not seen it. So I didn't see it until I saw Leslie perform it in the company that I joined. That was the first time I saw the show.

[3:22] Mike Abrams: Wow. Okay. So you're working on Broadway as a PA and you get the job to go sell merch, and you're selling merch and then you're seeing the show in the back of the house kind of as you're selling?

[3:36] Kevin Harvey: Yep. Yeah. And I don't know how much you want to veer off your path, but the interesting part about Leslie and I is because I was selling merch, I was a young 20-something guy. I was with my good friend, Todd Walton. He and I had grown up together. The first thing we did when we got the new programs to get ready to sell for the first show is we opened up all the inserts to check out the girls in the show. And as we went through the girls in the show, I picked out Leslie's picture and I said, I'm going to marry that one. It just worked.

[4:10] Mike Abrams: Okay. When did you learn that, Leslie? How did this all unfold from your perspective?

[4:18] Leslie Trayer: Well, it's kind of funny. Really, before the show even opened, we were in New Haven, Connecticut and we were doing our dress rehearsals. And Todd and Kevin were out in the lobby and they had set up their booths that they're selling the merch from, right? And I don't know how familiar you are with the show, but you enter the show from the audience and we do something called green eyes, right? So we're crawling around. So we have to enter through the house and we're going through the house and here's this merch thing and we're checking out the merch and there's Todd behind the thing. And he's saying to all of us, and we're all in our makeup and our wigs and our hairs, he can't really, he's like, which one are you?

Which one are you? Which one are you? And when I pointed to my picture, he yelled across the lobby, hey, Kevin, this is the one pointing at me. So I didn't exactly know what that meant. And I don't remember when I found out what that meant, but I remember clearly that moment happening.

[5:21] Mike Abrams: That is hilarious. Yeah. Because with green eyes, you do start all over the place. Cause he kind of like, that's the thing. It's, I think they're slowly bringing it back. They kind of paused it for COVID. Um, but yeah, you, so you kind of went out and y'all are selling merch and this is kind of your break, right? Cause there's nobody in the, in that moment, they're ready to buy it. Cause they're already ready to see the beginning of the show. Full on call. Oh, this was a dresser. This wasn't, this wasn't the show. Okay.

[5:53] Leslie Trayer: And you all, you, you're looking at, so when you're looking at the inserts and you're looking at like the, like almost the headshots, like the, of the performer, not like the cat. So you don't even have, you have no idea which is, I don't know who is who or what cat is what I don't, at that point, I don't know much about the show at all. Okay. I just pick a headshot and out and say, Oh, that's a cute girl. I'd like to marry that.

[6:15] Kevin Harvey: And then did you think at all, like you're ignoring the name next to it. It's like, who's still above? I wouldn't have known who's still above was at that point.

[6:19] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. Now I came to learn the show quite well because the more I became, you know, actually I say chase Leslie for the next six months, I spent a lot of time backstage for two reasons. One, I was trailing the stage managers because I wanted to go back to New York and work on the show, but I was also spending every spare moment I could watching Leslie on stage. So it was a lot of time backstage learning the show and watching her perform and everybody else perform. Of course it was a great company. I have to say that, you know, over the course of my career and Leslie's career, you know, we get to do a lot of shows and I've done, you know, probably a couple hundred, um, you know, maybe 125, 150 theatrical shows where I've been involved in them.

And this particular company is one of those special seven or eight shows that you remember and go back to and say, um, you know, boy, it was just an amazing company. Cause that doesn't happen all the time. It's like, you know, going in your job life, your work to work, sometimes you just have great people around you. And that company four was just a remarkable group of people and just a great experience. We're still friends with, um, you know, six or seven people from that company 30 years later. Um, yeah. And, uh, and close friends, you know?

[7:28] Mike Abrams: So Leslie, what was the moment that you realized that this is your guy? Was there a, like a moment on stage and tour? Was it off stage? Like, when did you kind of realize, you know, he's obviously picked you out and he's known from day one?

[8:00] Leslie Trayer: Well, see, the problem was I had a boyfriend. Minor challenge. I resisted and resisted. And we hung out a little bit in groups and we did some things, but there was one day that we, I think we, where were we?

[8:13] Kevin Harvey: El Paso.

[8:13] Leslie Trayer: El Paso, Texas. And, um, we had kind of made plans with trying to get a group to do something on a day off and, um, nobody showed up, but us. So we were by ourselves for that day and it just got super romantic. And then finally he kissed me and then that was it. I was done for.

[8:35] Mike Abrams: Was this, uh, Kevin, was this coordinated? Did everyone not show up?

[8:40] Kevin Harvey: I'd like to say I was that clever. I was not. No, no, it was a water park. We went to a water park in El Paso. So El Paso, Texas.

[8:46] Mike Abrams: Okay. So I want to talk a little bit about the, like, learning of the show. And then also from, from two different perspectives, cause you get to go through the whole rehearsal process and kind of learn the backstory and everything, um, for, for U.S. Celebob. And then Kevin, you get to go through this kind of as the wanting to learn it as a stage manager perspective and kind of almost a different viewpoint of the show. So I want to hear both kind of angles of what was that? Like, you know, you now have to learn the show in great detail, um, versus seeing it in Chicago or seeing it, you know, in LA and, and just watching as a spectator, you're now needing to know everything. So what was that kind of first introduction to the plot and the story of the life? And then what was the surprising moments for you on that?

[9:14] Leslie Trayer: Well, I think for me, so in rehearsal, um, David Taylor, who, um, you know, mounted our show, he, it was kind of like story time. He sat down and told us the story of that. I'm sure you've heard that from other people before, but for me, I was like, Oh, Oh, Oh, that's what that means. Oh, that's what happened. Oh, that's what, because literally I got none of the story when I saw the show and I certainly didn't remember it. Um, but he was intent on us creating relationships and we did lots of improv within the story that he gave us. You know, you guys are kittens and these are grown-up cats and you interact with the kittens, but you respect the grown-up cats and you get reprimanded by the grown-up cats. And we created so much, um, backstory and relationship, um, stories to that carried us through the show and were very real to us every night, um, within our interactions on stage.

[10:41] Kevin Harvey: Um, but interestingly, when I saw our company out, you know, in the audience, cause they swing you out. So your understudy can go on and get a rehearsal. And I watched the show and I was like, Oh my God, the audience isn't getting any of that. What do you have? We have this rich, rich background going on backstory and the audience isn't getting it. There's a, it's just, there's a great story that I think that I always tell from this. Cause because I was out in the house initially, you know, you learn what the show is and we know all this stuff and you have no idea if you've never done the show. Um, and one night I was standing at my booth and I watched a guy explaining the show to his girlfriend.

They were about 10 feet away and I heard the whole conversation and he was saying how, okay, so when that, when that one cat falls off the boat, um, you know, Jelly Lauren, when she falls off, um, you know, she washes up the beach and she's all messed up and that's Grizabella now. And now she comes back and she's in that. And he catches my eye. His, his girlfriend is back to me. He catches my eye. And I went, Hmm. He goes, that's not it. And I go, nah, it's not what's going on. But the audience, they made up their own great stories and it was hysterical to hear what they would say. And they would explain it to their kids and say, Oh, and this is what's happening. They have their own whole narrative of what that show was.

[12:16] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's an interesting part of it because I've kind of, in the beginning, as I learned more about it, I saw it 2016 for the first time and never seen it. Never knew much about it, new memory, but didn't know the whole thing. And I kind of had that same reaction. Like, what did I just watch? I'm not a dancer. I'm not a singer. It's like, I, I was definitely mesmerized by the talent level of like, to do this, but I wasn't sitting there going like, Oh my God, that's, I know exactly how difficult that turn is. I'm sitting there going like that, just as something I couldn't do any of it. So, but it is a, like, I love sitcoms and story arcs and writing and this kind of piece. And I did not get that in the show.

And it was almost bothered me, but then I'm kind of walking out and you're seeing all these children there. And as I've learned the show, I've learned more about the story of the show. It's really dark in some cases, like there's a lot of darkness to it. And so I kind of really love hearing the, like, everyone can take a very different kind of version of the same, at least loose arc that kind of falls all the way through. I mean, granted that guy was just flat out wrong, but I kind of love hearing maybe, maybe there's some, yeah, maybe there's, maybe there's something there, but.

[13:23] Leslie Trayer: Oh, can I just interject? I think it's really interesting that people actually took the time to try to figure out a story. Cause when I saw it, I just was so mesmerized that I didn't even try to figure out a story in my mind. It was just a dance concert, but we would hear, we heard different things all the time. I remember one person said that old Deuteronomy and Grisabella got married at the end and that's why through the processional at the end, and then they go up and that's them getting married.

[13:55] Mike Abrams: So I like that. That'd be a kind of unique way to end the show. It's a little less dark than murdering a cat.

[14:00] Kevin Harvey: Yeah, it is. It's interesting you say that because when you go to see a show like this, it's been going on for 40 plus years, like it's been around forever. There's so many people that get to get exposed to it. And there are a lot of people that hate it. And nobody who hates it has ever been able to articulate why, which I found really interesting, is I've yet to find an articulate reason why somebody doesn't really like it. But everyone watches from a different lens. I watched from someone who did not know dancing and singing in a lot of musical theater. I was mesmerized by the stage and the whole like, the built junkyard I thought was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. And then I was trying the whole time to figure out what the story was.

Like, what is the arc? What is the relationship? What's that there? And there's too much going on to do that in the first time you see it. And in general, it's like half of them aren't, yeah, you don't know which name this person is. I, you know, you can't pick this one out from a line. They're running around, they're dancing and jumping, but there is all that filling in the blank. But then you get to go and have this behind the scenes of like, you get told that story. You get to make those relationships. You get to have that. And that's what the fans kind of have this like really fun piece of is that some of the super fans and the now current internet like has all kinds of theories about these two should be together based on what somebody did in this particular production at this particular time. And I think that's what makes this show very unique and interesting is a world was built.

[15:28] Mike Abrams: So I want to ask you go because so Kevin is the outside, you probably didn't get to sit through that story time. You know, I did. You are now.

[15:32] Kevin Harvey: I got it later. And I'm sure somebody has told you this after 140 interviews, you said you've done. You know, it's an RSC production. It's a Royal Shakespeare Company. It's Trevor who did it originally. And their process is to spend, you know, a week or more just doing improvisational exercises. When they start with a new company, they do improvisational actor exercises and they work for a week. And I know this because I did right after this, I went into Les Miserables and Les Miserables, also Trevor Nunn and John Caird. And our first week of rehearsal with a luxury that you wouldn't have these days was purely six days of putting the actors to their paces, doing exercises, trying different things out, you know, experimenting, nothing to do with the show, literally just getting the actors to this, what Trevor would call this RSC place, this place you can work from.

And Cats came from that. Cats was that same kind of thing. Now, by the time Leslie did the fourth company, I don't know if you guys didn't get a full week of that, but you had a couple of days of it, right?

[16:37] Leslie Trayer: Yes, you had a couple of days. We did improv. I feel like we were improvising as Cats, you know, like the first three days, but maybe not for the whole day, you know. But my immersion into the show was kind of bizarre. I knew I was going into, I left the company and I went into Chess as a production assistant. And I left Chess and I went to Les Mis to do the L.A. company as a production assistant. And while I was there, I knew I was going back to New York and I was going to be going into, I was going to be a substitute stage manager on Broadway. And so I was making my prompt script. And the prompt script is what the stage manager calls the show from. So it's all the cues and all the music and all the stuff.

But with Cats, unlike a lot of theatrical shows, Cats is all done by numbers. And there wasn't any music in the script. It's all counts. So like every song is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And then it would say oboes or dancer or this, or they give you a little key mark. So I typed this before we had computers. I typed the entire script over and put all my cues into it. And I was learning the show by creating my prompt script from scratch. I had a Broadway copy and I was using that to make my own. So that was my, well, I was, you know, when I had time off during Les Mis, I would work on my Cats script. That was my introduction to the show was this just full immersion into typing the script word by word by word and learning how I was paying attention to and asking questions.

Because fortunately on my Les Mis company, I was with Scott Ferris, who was the production stage manager. Scott's another one you should talk to. Scott was, I think, the original PSM for the LA company of Cats. And he was also, wasn't he, he didn't dance in Cats, did he? He was also a dancer in Cats, I think. I don't know if he, he was our PSM too. Yes, and then he opened our company for it too. Anyway, Scott's a great, great guy. He's one of the, you know, one of the great Broadway PSMs and directors. So.

[18:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So when you're doing that and you're making your prompt script and you're, I mean, this is almost literal of like, here's when someone comes on here, there, how did you think at all about all the other pieces of this of like, well, those two are staged over there and maybe they're dating type of like, Cat-wise. Because that's what the fans are doing is like trying to piece together these relationships in this family. And I'm sitting there looking at this thing about a prompt script and I'm like, you probably are ignoring the twins besides when they're coming out, right?

[19:07] Kevin Harvey: Yeah, I mean, I have to say that, you know, my interest in musical theater, I grew up in it, but my interest in it was always the technical side of it. I loved, so Cats to me, at that stage in my career and my age and my maturity level, I could have cared less. To me, it was just, I knew it was a John Napier set. I knew that the license plate on the car was the number of the set, you know, it was like, you know, set Napier for whatever it was. And I knew technically it was, you know, one of the most advanced shows on Broadway at that moment. So everything for me was about the automation and about what the show was, how it was being lit and how it was being done and the rake stage and the, you know, all that stuff that, that was what, that was what interested me at that point.

It wasn't until later, you know, as I started doing other shows that I started to get more information from Leslie and friends and started to learn more about the show. Because when you, by the time I hit the Broadway company, it had been a Broadway for like seven years, you don't see half the company. It's like, you know, it's like going to work. You walk in, you know, you punch the clock, essentially, you go in, you, you know, you do your thing, you go up, you call the show and you go home and you don't see half the people in the show. I mean, it's just a machine at that point. So there wasn't a lot of in-depth, you know, this is what the show's about. And no, so I didn't get that opportunity.

[20:27] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. It's a different relationship to doing that. Cause you're calling the show versus like, uh, they always talk about how the, the character, like the actors get become like family. I'm like, well, yeah, you're crawling around on each other for eight nights a week. Like you kind of have to get close to each other. If not, it's, it's going to be a tough, you know, you can't just come in, punch in, punch out. Like you've got to, you've got to do this physically demanding show that has a high injury rate and is extremely sexual and it's essential and it's on its own way. So, um, it's, it's cool to hear the other, the other side of that. Cause I've mostly talked to performers.

[21:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah, of course. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. So I want to hear a little bit about the tour. I think one of my favorite things is to hear the funny stories because it seems like tour is crazy. So what do you remember? What stands out as like funny situations, funny memories, um, stuff that happened on stage that, you know, that you'll never forget.

[21:25] Leslie Trayer: Oh my gosh. I can't, I can't, there's been, so I did the show a second time. I went out six years later as a swing and five different parts. And, um, man, I can't think of any like really good stories. Like nobody fell off the stage, which I've had happen in other shows.

[21:41] Kevin Harvey: Um, well, I mean, I mean, there's a couple of the, and again, this is from the technical standpoint, but the, we were on the tour early out of the run and, uh, the, on the tour, you know, it's obviously not the big, um, automated stage. It's a, it's a thing that comes down for Isabella, the ring that comes down for Isabella and it came down and it got stuck there and it would not go back out. So they had to stop the show and, you know, and, and, and there's no curtain on cats, so you can't hide anything, everything that you're doing on stage, the audience is sitting there watching you. So stagehands are going out there trying to get this thing to go out. At one point that somebody suggested, well, let's just cut it. And somebody else said, that's not a great idea. Cause we've got another, you know, show tomorrow night and that would be screwed. And, you know, so those kinds of things happen all the time.

[22:38] My favorite was, um, on Broadway, we were doing a matinee show and, um, the, the whole back wall comes down, which is the ship, right? So the back wall comes down. And then at the end of the number, you call the queue and the ship goes back out and Skimbleshanks comes on next. And, uh, the ship didn't go out. It's stuck. So the entire stage is stuck. And, uh, so we stopped the show and we spent about 15 minutes trying to figure out, you know, the crew is trying to figure out the automation. They can't get it to work. It's not going to go, it's not going to open. It's going to be three hours and the audience is sitting there. So we skip, I think five numbers and we go to the end of the show with the ship on stage.

We skipped to the end of the show and we go right into memory and Deuteronomy leads Grisabella up onto the ship and they sing the number and they do the thing. And then he walks her down the ship and he walks her off stage. Right. And that's the end of the show. I think they returned three tickets. Like three people were like, well, Hey, we just shorted five songs out of the show. The rest of the audience like, Oh, we had no idea.

[24:03] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. That, that one guy probably felt so vindicated that that was his story. He got that was that night was his version of cats. He, he got to see jelly fall off the ship and then Grisabella come back on the ship.

[24:08] Kevin Harvey: I never even put that together, but you're absolutely right. This guy somewhere he's sitting there going like, I told you I was right for one night. He, he was definitely right.

[24:13] Mike Abrams: So it seems like, I mean, this is live theater. You get that. I've kind of always joked that when Grisabella's a way up does not happen, which it does. It feels like every tour I talked to has had at least one night where she doesn't get to ascend. I was like, why can't she just walk to the other side later that night? Like, why do you got to fix it? Just let her walk off. And, and nobody, most people aren't going to know the difference.

[24:30] Kevin Harvey: Well, you know, it's so funny. Cause all of those, all of those, the British shows that were happening, the only big shows that were really happening in the, you know, for the most part in the eighties, um, and they all had their thing, you know, Les Mis have the barricades and cats had the tire and the ship and, you know, um, Phantom had the chandelier and, you know, that, so the, the shows got to be known for their, their set bit. Um, so it was always there and there was always, you were paying the price for it. Cause it was, they were applying 20 year old industrial technology to, you know, run these automation systems. Cause there was nothing back in that time, nothing really existed. They were literally like repurposing industrial automation systems and, you know, putting them on there. So to program these cues and make all this stuff happen all the time. And it was glitchy and it, you know, it didn't always go perfect.

[25:18] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. How difficult is that when you're doing it in different places every week? Like, you know, when you're on tour, you're, you don't have the same, like on Broadway, it's a laser, you got the same house, same, same type of thing. So like when stuff goes wrong, you at least have an opportunity to fix it. Whereas if you're in Tulsa, Oklahoma, something goes wrong. And then two days later, you're driving to, you know, somewhere else in Texas, you've got to restart from scratch.

[25:41] Kevin Harvey: Well, the beauty of those, the beauty of those tours and the way they were designed and, you know, the genius behind what, which really, again, grew out of the seventies and the eighties as these shows became more technical is they created these amazing, they were self-contained. We could, we could roll our five trucks into a gymnasium. And if we had to, we could, we could do the show. We could figure out the show. We didn't need a theater. You need something to hang on. But for the most part, you could, you were, you had everything you needed. You were like a little self-contained military operation. You rolled into town. You, you had tools, you had talented people. You had, you know, everybody knew their job and it was designed to be exactly what that was.

It's like, we're going to be in a different situation. Sometimes we done one part of our tour. We did three cities a week for a short amount of time. So we were constantly moving that show or they were constantly moving that show. And, um, um, it just, it just becomes part of what the, you know, that's, that's what they're designed to do. That, you know, it's a, it's a money-making thing and it's got to work. It's got to work right. And it's got to open up at eight o'clock every Tuesday night, no matter where you are.

[26:46] Leslie Trayer: Um, as far as the performers concerned, you know, Kevin, that you had your own issues to deal with, you know, touring in different locations and different climates and, you know, different allergies and, you know, all that stuff happened because you're, you might be in, uh, uh, Buffalo, New York, and then the next day you're in, uh, uh, you know, Nashville. So two wildly different environments, you know, as a vocal person or a dancer, there's all different kinds of stuff they had to deal with and finding food, right. But being able to eat before the show, eat after the show.

[27:16] Kevin Harvey: Yeah. I'll see what it's like for you.

[27:20] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's so interesting because I always think about, like, um, I, yeah, I relate so much to sports and there's usually the, you know, the, the Denver basketball, like, like you just, you end up in altitude and the one game there, the home team has a huge advantage because they're used to it and they're not. And, you know, there is that. I didn't even think about allergies and, you know, the city and all that.

[27:36] Kevin Harvey: Yeah. It's the same thing. It's athletes moving from environment to environment.

[27:39] Leslie Trayer: Yeah, it's the exact same analogy, you know.

[27:41] Kevin Harvey: Yeah.

[27:41] Leslie Trayer: Les, do you have anything?

[27:42] Leslie Trayer: I just loved it because I, um, I hadn't seen a lot of our country, really.

[27:48] Leslie Trayer: I'd seen the few places I'd lived and that was it. And, um, you know, every theater was different. Every backstage was different. Every dressing room was different. And yet there was our box, you know, that had our personal things in it that made our dressing area, our dressing area for every show. And finding your way to the stage sometimes was so confusing. And you'd come off stage and you'd be remembering the theater that you were in before that and heading to the dressing room and going, Oh, no, my entrance, my dressing room's on the other side of where I enter this time. So sometimes that was confusing. And, you know, seeing the difference between brand new facilities and then beautiful old, like Fox theaters and that are ornate, you know, have just incredible personalities on their own.

I just loved every second of that. But yeah, I'm one of those people who has allergies, dust allergies. So the brand new theaters were much better for me, as far as being was concerned compared to the older theaters with a lot of dust and heavy draping and you know, all of that. But, um, but I mean, it was just, it was just so much fun for me. I was 26 years old when the tour started. Um, it was fun to see all the different cities and, you know, get paid to do that show and then have my days free to go and sightsee in the city. And it was just a great time. And like Kevin said earlier, the group of people made it amazing because not just the cast either, the band that toured with us and the crew, we were all tight.

We were all friends. We all hung out and, um, yeah, you buried one of them. Right. Um, I always love asking, and this is a dangerous question because you don't want to offend an entire population of people, but what was the city you loved? And then what was the one that you were just like, Oh, I won't care if we leave this city quickly. Oh, we gotta be careful. I have to be careful. Yeah. I'm from the Midwest. I'm from a city that sometimes people say that, but I love, I love where I grew up. Well, I can, I can, I can say, I'll say one city that, uh, uh, and it wasn't the city. Cause you have to remember that for us on a bus and truck tour that, you know, with that much movement, it's not so much about the city.

It's about the theater. Um, and it can be, and it could be simple things like how good was the hotel? How close was the hotel? How good are the food options? How close are the food options and the theater itself? And we actually played, uh, God, was it Rockford less? We played a theater that we actually ended up. It became not a viable theater after we were there because the tour complained to equity because there were leaks. It was, it was just not in a state that should have had a national tour playing in it or a bus and truck tour. Um, and we actually, that theater stopped being a performing arts center after we left. I mean, at least for a union tours, they couldn't play. So that wasn't, you know, that wasn't a great one, but there were, you know, all the cities had their, had their favorite.

What was one that you're like, I love absolutely love the city and where mine was not yours. Don't hate me. It was New Orleans because I'd never been there before. And it was so much, um, you know, culture and it was so different than anything I experienced before. And, um, but one of our, I mean, it wasn't very safe city. So one of our, our Isabella actually got attacked on the street. She got mugged. Remember her whole side of her face was solid. Oh, wow. Got mugged and her face slammed into, I think she broke her cheekbone. And, um, you want to tell your story, honey? Well, how much time do we have? I don't want to, I don't want to, well, so we're in New Orleans. I'll try to show the story very quickly.

Everybody's heard it. Who knows me? Uh, we're in New Orleans. Remember I'm selling, um, merchandise at that point and come to find out we should have done some things that we didn't do. Like we should have, we should have paid off the local people. Um, and we didn't, and that was just a thing that you did, but we, we didn't know any better and we didn't do it. So at the end of the week, uh, the, the Saints were on there, they were a contender for the super bowl. So it was in the playoffs and the game was playing that day and we were doing a matinee and we were getting ready for loadout. So outside of the theater, we had paid parking for all of the cats trucks. And of course it's five cats trucks that are all painted cats.

And then the merchandise truck, which is not painted cats. It's just a rider truck. And my guys are in the truck and we're loading some stuff out. One of the policemen who was paid by the show comes up and tell us that we have to move the truck. And I had, I had been in a motorcycle accident six weeks before. So I was on, I was on crutches at this point and I'm up in the truck. And I said, give us five minutes and we'll, you know, we'll move the truck. Remembering of course that we're in a paid spot that we're, we're allowed to be there. So he goes away, he comes back and he says, you gotta move it now. And I say, call your tow truck. You know, we'll be gone by the time it gets here. So not the right answer.

So I get out of the truck and I go inside the theater and I'm in the theater for about 10 minutes. And as I come back out, there's now five policemen lined up against the back of the truck, yelling at my two assistants, um, you know, up in the back of the truck. And you know, they're yelling things and threatening things. And I come out of the theater and the police see me and the other guy goes, there's the one, that's the one. And they point at me and they walk over to me and I put my arm up and I point and I say, they're trying to get out of the truck. If you let them down, they'll move the truck. That point they handcuff me and they, you know, the other cops come up and they encircle me and they start taking across the street.

I have my backpack on me and in my backpack at that point, I've got 75,000 cash from just a, just a little red vinyl backpack or a nylon backpack. Fortunately, before they cuff my other hand, I'm able to swing it off my shoulder and I toss it to Todd because I think I don't want to go to New Orleans jail with $75,000 cash on me. So they take me across the street. I'll try to fast forward through this. They do various things to me that aren't appropriate. Um, the intermission comes up or the end of intermission and all the cats are now at the stage door because the stage manager of the show comes out and tries to intervene and they say to him, if you come any further, we'll arrest you too. So he stops.

So all the cats at intermission are coming out to the stage door to find out what's going on. Leslie's the last one to the door and walks up. And what does Chuck Lubeck say to you? Well, I'm the last one, one of the last people off stage. So we've just done the big Jellicle ball and everybody exits, but Cillabub and Grizabella like Cillabub has this moment where she almost touches Grizabella and then she gets scared and runs away. Right. So everybody else has already exited and they're crowding around this door. And I, you know, walk over when I exit and I say to Chuck, who was our dance captain, uh, you know, what's everybody looking at? And he turned to me and he says, your boyfriend's getting arrested.

And I laughed. I was like, no, really? What is everybody looking at? And he's like, your boyfriend is getting arrested. And I looked out the door and sure enough, there he was like in the center area with a cop car and each side of him, they literally surrounded him with cop cars and he's up against the car. They were, they, they were parked across the street in the median and they had their cars there and they had coffee, little table, a TV tray set up. And they were watching the football game on like radio TVs. So they were, they were just hanging out cause they were there for our security. And they take me over, they take me over to that location and put me on the car and, you know, put my hands behind me and proceed to charge me.

I know. And I literally thought, you know, what, what could he have done? And then he sussed, he sussed, he mouthed off to somebody. That's what he would have been arrested for. And sure enough, that was it. So anyway, I just tried to get through it fast. They, they took me in to the parish County prison. Um, and I was in there for like four hours, which was a whole nother story and terrifying. And, um, they told me eventually Todd came to get me out, um, and you know, paid my bail and they charged me with three things. So they were able to charge for a lot of bail I had on me in my pocket. I had about 900 cash. They charged me like a thousand 50 and bail. So they purposely put three charges on me so that I couldn't bail myself out.

And eventually my, uh, associate came and, um, bailed me out. And they said, if you go back to the theater, you'll be arrested. So, uh, I happened to be staying at a place called the Olivier house. Um, and the family was a family owned hotel still is to this day. As a matter of fact, one of the girls in our show from that tour married into the family. She runs the hotel with Wow. Um, 30 years later, um, they got me a lawyer and, uh, that was a whole kind of farce in itself and went to court the next morning. The whole company left, you know, they loaded up the tracks, packed it up. They left town. I'm in town by myself. Now I go to court, the lawyer holds up a piece of paper. He walks me into the room and the whole room is crowded.

All the people I was in jail with the night before up in the front in the holding areas getting ready to get tried at 6 AM, I think, or 6 30 AM. And he holds up a piece of paper from the back of the room in front of like 150 people and says, Hey Joe, he's talking to the judge. He said, can we take care of this? And just judge Joe, the judge says, yeah, come on back. So the entire room turns around and looks at me like, who the hell am I? They go in the back room. They're back there like five minutes. They come back out and he's holding a piece of paper. He says, I gotcha. I gotcha. I gotcha. And he comes out and it says, it's a form letter and it says, I blank agree not to sue the parish police department for da, da, da, da, da.

I blank, I blank, you know, and we'll do this. And so I just, all I had to do is fill in my name in this badly crooked mimeographed thing. It said, I agree not to sue. And I was off and done. And I quickly went to the airport and went off. I ended up going back to new Orleans a couple more times with other tours, same cops were there that didn't recognize me. They were nothing but respectful and nice, but you know, but when I came back, I came back as a stage manager, not as a merge guy. So I had a different relationship with him at that point. So anyway, sorry, it was a long story.

[38:05] Mike Abrams: I feel like I've heard it all. And every time I'm like, nope, there's more to all these stories. Here's my one question. Were the saints losing?

[38:16] Kevin Harvey: They, no, they were winning. This was 1987. So if you look, it's like fall of 87, right? Yeah. Fall of 87. I think they were, I don't think they won the Superbowl that year, but I know they were on their way. I was in, when I went to jail, when they took me in, I was in jail with mostly people they had picked up at the game. So it was all kinds of, you know, different kinds of people. You know, I was in this big holding cell that was terrifying. I'm just sitting in the corner of this, you know, 24 year old, you know, long haired, you know, kid sitting in the corner with all these, you know, hardened criminals. They threw him to see you with a cat sweatshirt on in there too, you know, like the merch, you got the merch on and you're sitting in there with a bunch of these saints fans. Oh yeah. It was fun. Yeah. But I like New Orleans. I mean, it's, you know, it's a, it's an amazing city. So.

[39:14] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't even know. That's, that's what the wild story. I always feel like I've heard it all. That is not what I was expecting to hear. So, uh, cool to hear a different perspective, terrible situation. Um, I'm glad that you didn't. I was one of the things that came to my head. I was like, God, if you would have had that backpack with you, you would have been charged with like 800 things. So your bail would have been $80,000 instead of a thousand. Um, yeah, that is, that is a crazy story. That's fine. Well, let's, um, let's move to a couple of rapid fire from the show. And I think this will be fun because Kevin, for you, I know you usually ask like, you know, you've done it, but you haven't actually done the show.

You've done the show in different ways, but you've never actually danced the show. I'm going to start, I'm going to start with which cat, if you could go on for both of you for one night and forget if it's male, female vocal range, you could do it, sing it, dance it. Um, if you could just go on for one night, who would you want to perform as?

[40:04] Leslie Trayer: Well, I actually got to do it. And it was bomb bell Urena and I'm as bomb value because I'm only five foot two and a half, but I got to do it as a swing one time because I was literally the last swing they would ever put on for that part, but it was so fun. So yeah, yeah. She dances the whole show and she's got the big, you know, sexy number. And yeah, I loved it.

[40:37] Kevin Harvey: Oh, me? Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's gotta be tugger, you know, tuggers that, you know, that's the fun. It's either that one or, um, what was, what was Dan's part, honey? I always liked him to monkey strap, monkey strap, monkey strap, or tugger would be my two choices.

[40:52] Mike Abrams: Okay. Okay. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats? And I'm saying, forget the people who played them just purely personality wise of the cats.

[41:04] Kevin Harvey: I think I love rumple teaser and I think maybe my least favorite would be Macavity the villain.

[41:13] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. The villain. Okay. Yeah. You gotta go with the cavity. You gotta go. It's the, it's uh, cause everybody, otherwise everybody is, you know, charming and fun and just trying to get through the day.

[41:28] Kevin Harvey: Yeah. And the cavity of course is the, you know, the bad guy, the one who's messing it all up. What about favorite?

[41:36] Leslie Trayer: Well again, um, it's, I love monkey strap and tugger, you know, the ones I would go on are two of my favorites.

[41:40] Kevin Harvey: Yeah. Yeah. They're just fun. I mean, uh, a good tugger.

[41:42] Leslie Trayer: Just make that show, you know? It just really makes that show great. And A Good Mugga Strap, too. Especially if they have a great stage presence. And Dan, our guy, was so good at it. I think a close second to Rumpelteaser for me would be Skimbleshanks, because he's just so fun and loving, like an old uncle, you know? And now, you know, it's interesting because I do think my perspective is from Syllabub, right? Like, my likes. Because I really loved watching, you know, Skimbleshanks every night and being part of that. It was so playful. And then, same with Rumpelteaser. She was always so fun. Character was so fun to be on stage with, because she's a little bit mischievous, right? Getting into trouble and making us laugh.

[42:32] Kevin Harvey: Yeah. It's really interesting, as I asked these same questions to everybody who I've interviewed. It does seem like a lot of people are skewed by who they performed as, because you spend so much time in that mindset that no matter what, it's still part of it. And it's part of the way you've kind of thought of the show at all times. So it's fun with swings, because then you've had to embrace so many different characters that sometimes you get a little different answers. But yeah, it's a piece of how you view the whole production. And I think it makes it kind of fun to get these answers because of that.

[43:06] Leslie Trayer: Favorite song in the show?

[43:08] Kevin Harvey: Well, for me, it's The Ball, which technically is not a song. It's a piece.

[43:16] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. Any musical part. Yeah. So I count that.

[43:20] Kevin Harvey: Yeah. The Jocker Ball for me, it was so much that was fun to call. And it was the one that I always made time to go back and watch Leslie in. I would go backstage, and I was always downstage left because I had the best view of her. And she actually had a part in the choreography where she went from upstage right to downstage left, and she ran at me. So I'd always get a little bit of a hello. But I just love that. I just love that musically. And it was really fun to call. As a stage manager, that was a really great number to call.

[43:53] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. Yeah. I think for me, the Overture. Yeah. It was just so incredibly exciting to hear it and listen to it. And you really did. You're out there in pitch black, right? You're in the dark. You're just listening to this music and it's a little bit of lights are going on on the stage before the green ice, you know, and it's just it's orchestrated so well.

[44:20] Kevin Harvey: Yeah, it's kind of iconic. Like once you know it, like the minute you hear that, you're like, oh, it kind of like almost hypes you up. Like it's the beginning. You're ready to go. And someone actually just told me that you should put it as run music if you're running. It's really good for running. I was like, oh, that's bought on. Wow. I never thought of that. But yeah, it seems like it'd be good. Yeah. I always that's one fun one. And my fun one is as a stage manager, which cat do you think would make the best stage manager?

[44:46] Kevin Harvey: Monkey Strap, for sure. Monkey Strap. What do you think, Les? Les, what about you? Who I think would make the best stage manager? What cat's the best stage manager?

[44:55] Leslie Trayer: Oh, let's see. I mean, definitely Mung.

[45:02] Kevin Harvey: I can tell you the other one I thought of because I did think Monkey Strap was my number one. Well, my number two is Kimbo Shanks.

[45:06] Leslie Trayer: Oh, yeah, absolutely. He's going to keep everything on time. He's super organized. He's already got it all written out. He's got that whole thing numbered out for you already. But he's going to be the fun stage manager and Mung's going to be the serious stage manager.

[45:20] Kevin Harvey: Absolutely. Exactly. That's a good call. I didn't even think about that. I spent way too much time thinking about all these different things. It's really fun to think about the cats in different scenarios because the personalities are so wide. Who's your favorite? Most things. So I think it's interesting depending on how you answer that question. It's almost become like a little bit of a psychology exam of who do you hate and least hate? Because I think it's sometimes like, is it the personality that you're least like or most like? And so my favorite was the one that I'm probably least like, which is the... I think it was... I really enjoyed the number of... I thought Tuggers was great. Just comes in and wrecks and I'm way too Midwest to be that type of personality.

So I really enjoyed that. But then I've come to love Macavity as the song, not the character. And so I love the bomb Demeter whole dynamic of that. The first time I saw it though, the only thing I remembered walking out of the stage was Mungo Jerry and Rumpelteazer the whole time. Because they just sing it to you over and over and over and over again. You can't forget it. I also realized later, it's one of the few times that it's only two cats on stage. Most of the rest is a lot of cats on stage and it can get overwhelming, especially for me, was trying to put the plot together. I'm like, what's going on here? I was like, oh, with those two, I'm like, I know what's going on. I know what they're trying to do.

I know the story they're telling. So I think I just got to enjoy it a little bit more. So those, I think, were the ones that I've loved the most. Dislike is not in your production, but there is a cat who plays... it's Gus's ensemble character. And his name was Peter. And I just don't like the idea that you've got Mr. Mistoffelees and Joey Lorem and Bombalurina, Rum Tum Tugger, and then you've got Peter. So it's always been my answer for my least favorite has been Peter. And I've made a lot of jokes about Peter. And Peter has no story, because Peter is just Bus Gus in the beginning of the revival version. And it's just a... Yeah, I know. We didn't do that in ours, right? That wasn't part of our cut.

We didn't have a Peter. He was always Gus. It was always... sometimes it's like, Asparagus is the dance in the beginning. If it's not Gus, the one... so it's like, it's something different. But for some reason, they decided the name. And it's in the naming of cats. So that's where the name came from. I get why. But I'm like, why did they pick this name? That's an odd choice.

[47:45] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. I have some Peter dislike there. I think that's fair. Okay. I got to ask the million dollar question. So this is my whole podcast is predicated on the idea that I don't think Grizabella was the right joke of choice. I want you both to put on your old Deuteronomy hats. And I want you to tell me who you are picking if you're deciding and why. And then if you say, Grizabella, I'm asking some follow-up questions to try to change your mind.

[48:04] Kevin Harvey: Wow. I think I probably would have gone with Gus. Love it. Gus from Tiger. Because I love him. He's so sweet. And he's so pathetic, kind of the way he sits there and he shakes a little bit at the end, you know, and he's... Yeah, I think he would be another alternative. They should go up together. Gus and Griz together. They should both go up together. They're both, you know, they're both the older cats that have had some hard knocks. And, you know, so I would pick Gus as an alternate to Griz. But I'd hate to leave Griz behind because she's, you know, she's so bedraggled. Poor thing needs to... she needs something better happen.

[48:51] Leslie Trayer: I think isn't getting to be reunited with your family something better?

[48:56] Kevin Harvey: But was it her family? I mean, they make it sound like it's her family, but it's, you know, it was the family that kicked her out, right? What's the answer here? Like, what's the thought there? Because I do think like she seemed to have done some bad stuff and her family turned their back. And then there's now a welcoming her back. That's the way I interpret it. But you're saying this wasn't even her family or she's over her family because... Les, you know that part better than I do.

[49:23] Leslie Trayer: I always got the impression she wasn't necessarily from this group that she...

[49:27] Kevin Harvey: Oh, no, I think she was one.

[49:29] Leslie Trayer: But she predates all of them. The kittens weren't alive. She's I mean, she's older. She comes from a different time.

[49:35] Kevin Harvey: The kittens weren't alive necessarily. But the thing is that people think she's old and, you know, bedraggled, but she's not old. She's not old. She just abused herself so much. She's party, party.

[49:50] Leslie Trayer: She's not the mom of some of the kittens. She's older than that.

[49:55] Kevin Harvey: Oh, I never even thought about any of those cats as being our mothers or Grizabella being our mother. But I did feel that Grizabella is a contemporary of Bom.

[50:09] Leslie Trayer: Yeah, I agree with that.

[50:12] Kevin Harvey: And Bom is not old.

[50:14] Leslie Trayer: Yeah.

[50:15] Kevin Harvey: It's just that Grizabella is worn out. She's abused her body. She's abused herself so much. And I do think there's, you know, there's forgiveness and redemption. And I think that's a lot of what Deuteronomy was, you know, trying to guide us toward. That's the reason makes that choice or he makes the choice. But really, you feel like you've had a part in that all along when you're, you know, a part of the group.

[50:47] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. Yeah. No, there's enough of a story there. I get the redemption. I just have always kind of felt that if she's being redeemed, let her go next year. Let Gus go this year. Let her spend a year with the family. Let her, like, have her reunion. Like, there's that heartfelt moment of being re-accepted. And it's like, great. You're being like, they're welcoming you back into this tribe that, you know, abandoned you and like treated you poorly in the first act. And then it's like, great. And then when we're going to, we're going to murder you. Like, we're going to send you up. We're going to get rid of you. And so I think that's the part that I've always struggled with. I also saw a lot of more younger Grizabellas because on the most recent tours, you get a younger casted Griz.

And so I'm like, they're not the Gus age old, you know, ready to go. Like, they're too young to go. But okay. So can you pick two? I do keep track. So who are you putting down? Am I putting down Gus or I'm putting down Griz?

[51:40] Kevin Harvey: Oh, I think Griz. I think she's, I think, you know, I treat Griz like she's a, you know, she's a heroin addict and she's at the end of her life and she's, she's got the peace. She's been redeemed. And now the best thing for her is just to move on. It's time. No rehab.

[51:59] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. No. No Jellicle rehab. She's just gonna go. She's just too far gone. She's just, she's so, she's so downtrodden. And, you know, if when it's, when it does what it's supposed to do, she has this joyous moment of, you know, finally, she's going to be at peace. She's going to be at peace. When the set works like you want it to.

[52:18] Kevin Harvey: Such a stage manager answer there. Like when it doesn't suppose to.

[52:24] Leslie Trayer: When she doesn't have to go out in the boat, we're good.

[52:27] Kevin Harvey: Exactly. She might not make it another year. Yeah. Right. She's probably not going to make it another year. But is Gus gonna make another year? Gus is probably gonna hang on.

[52:36] Leslie Trayer: I don't know. Gus's story seems like he's, he's out.

[52:42] Kevin Harvey: The thing you don't know is Gus goes the next night. We just don't get to see it.

[52:45] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. Gus doesn't get the fanfare. He just goes. Yeah. It's, I've had some interesting conversations of like, is it, it does say every year, but like, what's a year in the cat's world? Like, is it a calendar year? Is it, there's like a lot that you can, that's very unanswered. Really dig deep into this, which we won't go any further, but I really appreciate y'all coming on. I know, Kevin, you're still doing stuff in theater. So tell us a little bit about your company.

[53:07] Kevin Harvey: Cenova's, we're a top-down production house. We, you know, we do broadcast, we do theater, we do live corporate. We do, we also have a division that's the architectural side, where we do permanent installations. So, you know, I told you earlier, you know, we, we did YouTube's, YouTube's three buildings that, you know, building one, two, and three, Mountain View, Hudson Yards, we were at for a few years, Hard Rocks in a couple of different locations, Facebook's all over the world. So a lot of big technology centers. And then on Broadway, we've, we're represented by American Idiot and gosh, I'm going to completely blank on every single one of the shows. Go to the website, Cenova.com, S-E-N-O-V-E-A.com. But we, we're in that space.

And then we're about 70% of the one-off award shows. So we do the Oscars and the Emmys and Kennedy Center Honors and Golden Globes and BET and, you know, a lot of those kind of shows. That's our, that's our big broadcast space. So, so yeah, it was kind of a continuation of, you know, where I started in. And we do theater because I'm the CEO and co-founder of the company. And we do theater because I still like it. So.

[54:28] Leslie Trayer: Yeah. One day you're going to do more cats. I hope.

[54:35] Kevin Harvey: I don't know about that. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I would never say never. Never say never.

[54:40] Leslie Trayer: I love it. Well, this has been so fun. Thank you both for coming on, sharing and telling some stories and getting some new theories out there. It's always fun.

[54:45] Kevin Harvey: Well, thank you very much for having us. It's a lot of fun.

[54:48] Leslie Trayer: Thank you so much for having us.

[54:50] Kevin Harvey: Awesome. Thank you.

[54:51] Leslie Trayer: Memory piece who was really thinking about everything, right?

[54:54] Kevin Harvey: Oh, yeah. Has anybody, has anybody sung a song for you on the, of your 140 interviews?

[54:59] Leslie Trayer: We've had some like little pieces of it. Yeah. You want to, do you want to add a couple bars?

[55:05] Kevin Harvey: That was it. All you get is that.

[55:07] Leslie Trayer: That's all I get. Just a little bit of memory.

[55:08] Kevin Harvey: I could do my little cat's choreographies.

[55:12] Leslie Trayer: Well, this has been awesome. So thank you. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the RonKatDiet, the podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other social podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and threads, it's RonKatDiet, or check our website at ronkatdiet.com.