This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat's Astrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He is one of the best theatre content creators out there on TikTok and Instagram and everywhere else, and he has performed in all kinds of shows over the years. He's gone viral many times, more times than I can count, and he has told me he has some very hot takes on Cats. So he's better known as the Broadway Bob. So welcome, Bob Bullen, and thank you for joining me.

[0:38] Bob Bullen: Thank you so much, Mike. I'm so glad to be here.

[0:43] Mike Abrams: I'm excited to have you. I know we've chatted for a while now about having you come on, and I know you've been in shows and it's been crazy and chaotic, but I'm excited to hear your takes. But I always like to start at the beginning. So start me at the beginning of your Cats history. When was the first time you saw the show? What was your first experience with Cats?

[1:04] Bob Bullen: Well, Cats is one of those shows that made me fall in love with theatre. It was the first show that I ever saw as a kid. That's the one that I remember. We did go see a few at our home civic theatre, but we went to the Broadway. We went to the Winter Garden. It was 1989, and we saw none of the original cast was in it, but Laurie Beachman was Grizabella. It was a show that just basically like my eyes just exploded out of my head, and I was like, what the hell is this? And I love Cats because of that. It's my first seminal theatrical memory.

[1:44] Mike Abrams: So how old were you when you saw it for the first time? Were you like young, young or?

[1:48] Bob Bullen: I was like 10, 10, 11.

[1:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So not old enough to understand all the chaos that the show's about.

[1:54] Bob Bullen: Right. I understood it at a level, which is why the show is so brilliant in my mind, because a kid is like, ooh, that's fun. And then the adults who are actually paying attention to what the show's about, which we'll talk about, will get something else out of it. So it entertains at all levels. But yeah, I was just dazzled by the lights and the dancing. I remember there was a moment where at intermission, the kids could go up and sit on old Deuteronomy's lap, like Santa Claus. And I stood on stage to get him to sit on his lap. And then I got too scared and didn't do it.

[2:29] Mike Abrams: Oh, so I thought you were going to say you got cut in line, like there's this thing at the end. But no, you got too scared.

[2:33] Bob Bullen: I got too scared. I got too nervous. And I just.

[2:35] Mike Abrams: You didn't want to be the sacrifice.

[2:38] Bob Bullen: No, I didn't want to go up there. I didn't know that was part of the story, actually. But yeah, I didn't want to be sacrificed.

[2:44] Mike Abrams: Wow. And I find it fascinating, too, because that happens. And when I saw it the first time, they were still doing that. But everyone was going up to take their selfie with them. It's like such a modern social media version. But in '89, you're going up to just see him and say hi, you know, like this Polaroid camera version of this.

[3:04] Bob Bullen: Yeah, I don't even think we had a camera. I remember when we were sitting on stage waiting to go on his lap, we turned around and we could see the band in the wings. And they, and my memory, I don't know if this is true, but my memory is that they were like dressed in like garbage or something like that. They were hidden in the, I don't know, maybe my nine, 10-year-old mind made that up. But that's what I remember.

[3:27] Mike Abrams: I love that. I mean, I would hope they do a really good job of making everything feel like you're in the junkyard. And from what I heard of everything at the Winter Garden, that was a critical piece of it. So there could have been like the even the band, they are in the junkyard with you.

[3:42] Bob Bullen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was just like, I remember when they pulled the wall down to reveal Growl Tiger's Last Stand. So I've seen many productions of this show. Let's just say that I've seen the original Broadway. I've seen the tour. I saw the Inflatable Sets tour twice. I've seen two community, I've seen a community theater production and a production of a small storefront theater in Chicago, where in that production, the gal who played Grizabella, it was this tiny little theater that like the front door was walking out and to the street and there was like the L train was going outside, but it was a winter storm that was happening during the afternoon that we saw this performance and the gal playing Grizabella had to stand outside to wait to get in for her first entrance to sing her first iteration of memory. And when she walked inside, she was covered in snow. It was so poetic.

[4:40] Bob Bullen: As it's very on brand, you know, like this, she's returning to the junkyard for real.

[4:45] Mike Abrams: Right. So, um, so I've seen the shows, but like, it's, I think I'm always trying to catch that magic that I felt as a kid, you know, trying to try to find it again. Sometimes I do, but it was one of those shows.

[4:59] Mike Abrams: Have you seen the newer version from Andy Blankenbuehler or have you mostly seen the original?

[5:02] Bob Bullen: I did. I saw the tour.

[5:04] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay. So you saw the most recent tour.

[5:07] Bob Bullen: I did.

[5:08] Mike Abrams: Amazing. And you've not done it yet. Is it a dream to do it?

[5:13] Bob Bullen: If I could play Grizabella, cause I can't dance, which I think is impartial to the show. There's no touching. I can barely even touch my toes. So I think it's a matter of, um, of ability versus want or desire.

[5:28] Mike Abrams: Okay. Okay. You're, as I say, you gotta be a mover and maybe there's like a, I think, I think everyone dances though, because I'm like, oh, you could just do Bustopher Jones or, but it's like, no, Bustopher Jones still does Gus and dances in the beginning. Listen, if Betty Buckley could play it, not a dancer, I think I could play it.

[5:45] Bob Bullen: Yeah. You're ready.

[5:47] Mike Abrams: Or does Old Deuteronomy dance at all? Like, and even the new, like I could do that.

[5:52] Bob Bullen: Not really, actually. I don't think Old Deuteronomy dances in the new one, but you'd be ready to sit on stage and scare children.

[6:01] Bob Bullen: Be very good at that.

[6:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So, okay. So you've seen all different iterations of it and it's all been kind of a core foundation of you getting into theater.

[6:10] Bob Bullen: Yeah.

[6:11] Mike Abrams: And so what was the next show you remember seeing after?

[6:14] Bob Bullen: It was the prerequisites that we all saw at our age. It was, um, Cats, then Phantom, then Les Mis, then Miss Saigon. Those were the ones that we saw. All the British mega musicals were the shows that were really the big thing when I was a kid. Um, but it was, yeah, it was the, it was one of those shows that was just part of the path. I think there's a lot of people who are my age that kind of followed that same trajectory of shows, you know?

[6:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I had the reverse. So I didn't see any of them because I didn't grow up really in a theater community. I mean, my mom is a music teacher and we went to shows, but we went to the touring Broadway and I kept going to every sporting event in Indiana ever. So it was like, that was my role. And then I occasionally went to one here and then I moved to New York. And that's how I ended up at Cats the first time is I said, I need to go see all of that classic, that whole list you have said, I had seen none of them before I moved to New York. And so I kind of had that of a, wow, I probably should see some of these now that they're here and I live here and I'm down the street from it. And that's how I ended up at Cats the first time. So that's, it is kind of an interesting piece of where it gets you into theater for sure. Um, a lot deeper.

[7:30] Bob Bullen: It does.

[7:31] Mike Abrams: I want to come back to Cats cause I want to hear your hot takes, but before we do that, I want to hear how you got into the content creation because you have a lot of fun on TikTok and you have had some things go viral and some things that, you know, depending on when you're listening to this that have been recently viral and have been viral in the past and you've had a lot of fun with it, but how did you kind of end up into this world of amassing your following?

[7:57] Bob Bullen: It's a really good question because I have no idea. I think, I think it's one of those things where, um, it's, it's, uh, it's timing. I think I started, I joined TikTok, um, right, like at the beginning of the pandemic when everyone was getting onto it and there really wasn't theater talk at that point. It was like me and a few other people who are still on there. Um, and I think that people were scrambling to find some way to engage with a thing that was just taken away from all of us, you know? And so I just happened to just like pull, I didn't, I barely even knew what TikTok was when I did my first TikTok, like probably most people, but it was still like relatively new. And, um, all of a sudden I was finding myself connecting with all these people and some of them people that I've like looked up to and respected for a long time were all of a sudden following me and engaging with me because they're all home and bored, right?

[8:51] Bob Bullen: Yeah. Um, and that just kind of happened. So I think I hit the timing, um, uh, in a, in a way. And also, um, I think it's just being, um, honest and yourself. And I think also it sounds kind of gross, but finding a niche TikTok has a hard time, um, finding like you're at the, you're at the, you're beholden to the algorithm, which everyone talks about and there can, you can have the most amazing content, but people aren't seeing it cause TikTok doesn't know who your audience is. So if you can really niche yourself and find a way to like, and talk about a specific topic, it will start pulling audiences toward you. So it's a little bit of like, um, being very, having a clear understanding of what you represent when you go on TikTok.

[9:36] Bob Bullen: Um, and I also, I used to write about theater for like seven years. Um, I used to review theater and write about it and like the Huffington Post and other places. So, um, it's just something I've always kind of done, but more in the writing form and then just talking about it and putting my face on camera was a new thing for me. And in a way I like it because it doesn't require all the editing and, and, you know, you can just be yourself and just talk and just talk. It's a lot easier that way, but I kind of stumbled into it in some way.

[10:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's super authentic. And I think that's why it lands. And I think that's exactly what you're saying is, is your you and you can tell it's not, you know, it's, it's real and it's, you know, in some cases raw, but also because you don't have to have that huge high production value clearly edited and spent days working on, you can be in the moment and you can respond in the moment and you can reply to a comment with another video and have some like continued conversation. And the theater talk community is very, um, amazing people. So like, they're very engaging and really super like nice people there to really move theater forward versus it feeling like, uh, like a sale, you know, like there's some clear tick tock where I'm like, Oh, I'm being, I'm being pushed to do this or think this way versus just sharing about theater to try to improve the community. And that's, it's a very authentic thing. I'm too niche on tick tock, which is where, you know, like you gotta be niche, but I'm way too niche that like, they have no idea who my content is.

[11:20] Bob Bullen: Is there a niche, this podcast or is it,

[11:20] Mike Abrams: it is this podcast. It's only this podcast. It's the only tick tock I have. I have personal Instagrams and everything else. And, and yeah, for the, you know, for this, but I did not create one for tick tock. I only have the podcast one and it is, it's, it's a little, what I make is meme based stuff, but I'm not on camera that often. So I'm, I'm too narrow, but it's really fun to kind of see how that, that goes.

[11:43] Bob Bullen: Have you had a moment in your, you know, influencing kind of career now that you were just like, wow, that really took off. And I cannot believe that this is what, what went viral.

[11:55] Bob Bullen: I mean, the most viral video I have, um, my tick tock channel is one where I was in our camper and I, um, didn't want to do the dishes. So I put like these covers on our, on our, um, sink that like make it look like it's the cover of the sink. So it hides your dishes. If that makes sense. I got like 2 million views and that's, that's the one that got the most views with that one. And I was like, I guess that's what tick tock. So, so to answer your question, that's the one I was like, really, this is the one that took five seconds of like, look at this funny thing. And all of a sudden it went completely viral. So that's, that's how I'd answer it. But there are ones that are related to what I talk about that, um, that have taken off and I've, um, and sometimes it's scary, you know, you, it takes off and all of a sudden you get like really, um, you get a lot of visibility and with that comes, um, attention and.

[13:01] Broadway Bob: It's a weird thing to say, but being on TikTok, I don't really love attention. I feel like I'm talking to my friends who love theater, and when it goes outside of that theater niche and goes to the broader part of TikTok, then it becomes something else. And it becomes like, you invite people that you necessarily don't want to engage with. You know what I mean?

[13:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a huge platform, so you're reaching all kinds of...

[13:35] Broadway Bob: Yeah, it's interesting too, because it is so much less a follower-based view versus some of the other social media platforms where you get shared what you've chosen to see versus this is what the algorithm thinks you'll like based on how long you watch. So there is that, that will have a broader reach.

[13:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And then you get trolls that pop up. I remember this one time where I posted this thing about Eartha Kitt and the best entrance that ever happened in the history of theater, and it was great. And I remember, it still sticks with me, it's so silly, this person, because it went viral, this entrance. And this person commented and said, the only grand entrance that I'm paying attention to is that cold sore that's on your mouth or something like that. And I was like, what? It was so just out of left field and made me feel really self-conscious and I felt bad that it hit me so hard. I was like, I am 43 years old, why am I so... It always amazes me when someone has decided, yeah, decides to troll, that they have spent time seeing this content.

I was like, I'm going to post this to make this person feel bad. And that's what they do with their day and their life. And I half the time forget to like something I enjoyed, let alone been like, oh, I'm ready to make this person think about this comment for the next 10 weeks or whatever that is. There's something to be said about people that makes them happy to do that.

[15:05] Broadway Bob: Yeah. What's the reverse of that? What's one thing that you posted that you're like, this is good, and then nobody saw? I feel like there's so much. Like, one thing I love to do, it's so stupid, is I love to do these, I don't know even how to describe it. They're kind of like lip syncs of Patti LuPone. Patti LuPone is my jam. She's my favorite performer. She loves cats. She loves cats.

[15:41] Mike Abrams: Oh, yeah, she does. Her and Angela Webber just get along so frantically.

[15:46] Broadway Bob: And I do these videos where I basically strip out her vocals and I sing as hers. I don't even know what you call that. But I call it the rare, the lost footage Patti LuPone, the rare live recordings. And I work so hard at them. And I try to do them. And I have such a ball doing them. And no one ever. So the least views. And I don't really care. I don't really pay attention to that stuff, honestly. But I am just it makes me laugh. Like the thing that I work the hardest at just does not get people just don't care or the algorithm doesn't care, I guess.

[16:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Do you notice that there's stuff that is better on Instagram reels and then TikTok and it's the exact same thing?

[16:28] Broadway Bob: Yeah, they're so weird in terms of how they gain an audience. I find I find I get consistent engagement on Instagram for the most part. And but it doesn't really vary that much. And then I get like highs and lows on TikTok.

[16:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's what I find. Have you done anything cats on TikTok? And if not, what is your what's your grand cats playing here after?

[16:54] Broadway Bob: Oh, I've done some things on cats. I did. I did something about coming back for covid and like being excited to see cats. I think I did something about about the. Remember that news story about how Angela Webber was working on his the film score of cats and his cat got into his his piano and destroyed the files? That's one of my favorite stories. I think I did something on that, too.

[17:27] Mike Abrams: OK, got a couple. You got a couple in there.

[17:32] Broadway Bob: I do. It's you know, it's part of my DNA. Cats is part of my DNA. We're going to take a quick break and we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. All right, let's let's pivot now to the cat's conversation. Let's hear all these hot takes. Let's you know, first, I mean, I know you've seen it, but you've seen all variations of it. So, yeah, let's start with you've got a non theater friend. Someone's coming to your Tick-Tock for the first time. Not the troll. You've got a non theater. How are you explaining cats to them?

[17:57] Broadway Bob: I would say that it is. An exploration of humanity, but that would bore them. I would say first and foremost, it's a dance show. OK, it's a show that if you're going to really break it down, I think people seem to forget that it's more than just a musical. It's a dance review in a lot of ways. The dance is integral. Jillian Lynn's choreography, in my mind, is just as integral as the music and the staging. So it's a dance show about cats. I mean, what more like? I'm not going to lie. That's what it is. That's it themselves. And then one of them flies up into the sky and you got to go for the ride. And I think the thing that is disheartening is most people know cats based on like the 2019 movie.

Oh, yeah. And they've kind of written it off. But I've been like, you got to see like you got to like I want to take them back in time and have them watch the version of the Winter Garden. Oh, I get it now. That's cats or the tour that's going around. But long winded way of saying to your answer, I would tell a friend who has an interest in theater but doesn't know what cats is. It's a singing and dancing show with a lot of great dancing about cats and a junkyard. And that's it. Don't worry about plot. Just watch the dance. No plot.

[19:15] Mike Abrams: And there's there is a beautiful what I and if I want to get really serious, you know, to me, cats is about. And I think even Betty Buckley described it this way. And I know that she has like she's very and I say this with all my love because I love her. Like she's very woo woo about things. And she described and I'm like, I kind of agree with that. It's about presenting archetypes of human nature and the show and how they and kind of the progression of humanity through their archetypes and at the end, kind of the divine kind of rebirth at the end of it. And I think there's something there's something in there. I'm not smart enough. There's something in it that's profound that I think cats is more than just what we even might think it is. I think it has a message in it.

[20:03] Broadway Bob: Yeah. So I love that because I think that there is I agree with it completely. I also, though, part of me thinks there's no way that in the 80s they were thinking that deep about this. They were just sitting there on probably on drugs, being like, let's do a show about cats. We're going to have a great day. But but you're right. And I've told a lot of people, I think the reason so many people find a deep meaning and relationship to the show is there is likely one cat that is extremely relatable to you as a human. Like there's one personality type or that architecture that Betty was was mentioning. That is you. And you can kind of relate to. And because you can relate to that, you can see how they interact with their family and their peers.

And you can kind of feel community. And sometimes if you don't feel that community outside of the theater or just in general in life, seeing that can give you that community that you can feel. And I think there's a big set of fans that have that or saw that at an early age from the show and realize like, hey, I can like this is how I can have this. And just because this person is different than this person is different than this person doesn't mean that they can't all be one big, happy family at the end. And I think that that has always resonated really well with me. But it's also beautiful. I don't think that they thought about it. Like, it's so fun to like, you know, world that was built, but there's no way in the 80s they were like, we're going to make sure everyone relates to these people.

They were probably there going, let's like my first joke about the show, which is anywhere on the podcast was like, I imagined how he pitched it. And I saw the X Factor version of the show is with my interpretation. And it was like, that was the the cats was the punchline of like, here's how we're going to make it different from American Idol and different from all these other shows is like, we're just going to dress them up as cats. And I think that that's kind of what went through their heads of like, oh, we got these cool poems, but no, like, let's let's go all in on cats the same way. We're going to go all in on trains. We're going to go all in on all kinds of other stuff that he did in the 80s. But it has this weird world that it built, that if you really can, like, I can have 150 episodes about the show, breaking down characters and assessing their relationships and everything because of that world that was built. But I don't I just don't think that much thought went into it.

[22:27] Broadway Bob: You're probably right. I mean, a broken clock is right twice a day or something like that. Like they they threw a bunch of stuff at the wall and for some reason it magically stuck. And I think, you know, if there's meaning there that wasn't intended, it's still meaningful.

[22:45] Mike Abrams: It is. It is. I think that's what's great about it, though. And that's why I've yet to meet somebody and I still I'll challenge it's nobody who's listening to this, but I've challenged everyone who has learned that I that I do this podcast and I've said and they say, oh, I hate cats. And I go, why? Give me like your reason why. And they're just like, oh, I didn't like it. But nobody has a real reason. No one can articulate why they hated it. Everyone can articulate why they love. And I think that that's a really interesting part of this show is there are plenty of shows I've watched and I will not put them on blast having been to a lot of theater since I moved to New York that I can say I can tell you exactly what of this show I did not enjoy.

And this is why this didn't work for me. And this is why this wasn't there. I don't find that in cats. It's just weird. And that is what people don't like, potentially. But there isn't that like it's still beautiful dancing. It's still really great singing. The set is incredible. It tells a redemption story like there is a little bit of a story and there's meaning behind all of this stuff that's happening. And no, there's you know, it's got forty three, four. Where are we now? Forty five. I don't know what number we're at this point. Years of proof that it works. Yeah, it's it's it doesn't need to defend itself. It already knows that it's successful. And I think I think it's also was helpful to any like just from a very basic perspective, it appeals to a global audience because you don't have to know how to speak English to understand what's going on on that stage.

It tells the story itself. So I think the fact that it's global in nature really gives us standing power, too. So in a lot of ways, they were smart with like creating kind of a plotless musical that you could follow pretty easily just by looking at what's happening on the stage.

[24:30] Broadway Bob: Yeah. Yeah. There's the first time I saw it was a very international audience, which is I felt the same way of like, yeah, the kids can get it. If you don't speak English, you can get it. I really want to see it in German. And I know that exists in Vienna, that they do.

[24:46] Mike Abrams: I saw it in Stuttgart when I was in Germany in 2002.

[24:53] Broadway Bob: Yeah. And it was a Broadway recreation. It was a great production.

[24:57] Mike Abrams: That is amazing. All right. What are some what are some of your hot takes on the cats, like the characters? Like, who do you who do you love? Who do you hate? Who are you like disagreeing with? Like, where are you with the actual?

[25:07] Broadway Bob: Let's see. You know, I think that. I think that Macavity is I think. I think they've made too much about Macavity. They need to stop being obsessed about that, dude. I don't quite know what the hell he's done, but they've made him into a thing. I think he think he needs to go to a therapist. I think that Skimbleshanks is hot, very sexy. I like I like a train. I like I like a train moment, especially in the movie. That was the one thing in the movie that was salvageable was Skimbleshanks and its tap dancing. I also think that Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer, I vastly prefer the Broadway version of that song, and I think that the London version is so unfair.

[26:31] Broadway Bob: I think, you know, it's quite obvious, but I think Grizabella is one of the best roles for a musical actress. And it is one of, it is, it is one of my favorite roles on the stage. And if I were an actress, I would love it because, you know, you get up to sing one song and you're done. And you get to like steal the show. You don't even have to like 15 minutes, 15 minutes on stage in the old way they did it. I think the new way they make the, um, Grizabella dance in the beginning in a slightly different costume, but before it was 15 minutes, you would come out a little bit at the end of act two, or, you know, you kind of scare everyone off. Then you sing little memory for a little bit and then you go back and then you sing your song and you fly up to the other side later.

What do you think Judi Dench would have been like in that role? Like what, what, what would your thought, like, what would your thoughts be? I mean, I love it. I think it would have been great. I don't know. I don't know her ability because like, I don't have the history of like her singing chops to be able to do that. I think that role, you've got to be able to belt memory at a level to belt it. And like, cause it is what, it's the only song most people that are a casual fan are going to know. Like they're going to walk in and they're not going to know anything else about the show, but they will know memory. And so if it's delivered poorly, it is in a bad way memorable, but when it's delivered well, it's unforgettable.

So I just like, I don't know. I know Judi Dench from more recent of my life. Can she do that? If she could, I mean, she's incredibly talented and she was supposed to do it right. Like that was. She was going to do it and she tore like her Achilles tendon or something beforehand and Elaine Page stepped in. There's actually press photos of her in the Grizabella costume. She did. I think that, I think that she would do a good job. It wouldn't be the powerhouse belting, but she did play Sally Bowles and I think the original London production of Cabaret like 15 years or 20 years prior to that. So she could have surprised us all. I just was curious because it's so interesting how that role became a belting powerhouse role because of Elaine Page and the fact that she stepped in and did her, did the team a solid.

So, so yeah, but those are my hot takes. I love, I love Grizabella. I think she's one of my favorites. I sometimes I feel like an outsider looking in to quote Adira Van Hansen and there she is being the outsider and she's had a past. We had a, um, a cat that when we first moved into the city, um, and we had this really janky garden apartment. And the first night I opened the back door and there was like this alley cat that was there that became our cat. Like we adopted that day and it was our little Grizabella. She was just like, you know, she had a past. We don't know what it was. She might've been glamorous. Um, and, um, but you didn't sacrifice her right away. We didn't sacrifice her right away.

Okay. I want to, I want to go back to, so do you think it's an interesting take of like, because Elaine Page belted it so beautifully that it became a belter's role. Do you think if somebody else didn't that, like we have a different not take on the show, but like, does that become less important into the scenes and everyone's thinking about tugger or Mustafa Lisa's dance number or just the ball in general? Like, I think so much emphasis goes on memory because of, of how powerful it is. But the, do you feel that there was maybe a different path for this show? I don't, I, you know, I think it's hard to, it's hard to think about that show, not being not role, not being the way it is now. Um, but I could, I could see a world where Grizabella is more, it's not so much based on the powerhouse belt, but it's based on the Judi Dench interpretation of that song, you know, and really giving it that heft.

I mean, woman won a golden or Academy award for Shakespeare in love. And she was on screen for maybe five minutes. Like she can, she can walk in and like steal a scene in her own special way. So I could see her doing that. That's why I'm so captivated. Like what would she have done with that? That we would not have anticipated. Like she would use the song memory as some type of like, she would have turned it into something completely different. I think there's so much emotion and fatigue of like, this is all I have left that I'm giving you. I feel like she leaned into that a lot harder. It's so funny because Betty Buckley talks about how, when she was cast in the role, she, they wouldn't let her, they wouldn't want, they didn't want her in it originally because she was seen as like the, they looked at her as like this healthy, vibrant woman, you know, and she didn't radiate kind of that sickliness that they were looking for in the role.

I'm like Elaine Page, she's like bubbly and British, completely. And I, I really think a lot of my, like, and we'll get to the, the joyful choice, but a lot of my argument is that I have not seen, and even Betty Buckley and Elaine Page weren't old when they did it, but I haven't, I've seen like really young Grizabellas, like in their twenties. And it's really hard to be like, oh, this weathered old cat when they're 22 or, you know, 25 or even 30. And they're coming on and just like, you know, as much as they're playing it, it doesn't, it doesn't have that, um, emotion of having, like, I go back to the 1998 movie and you had, uh, John Mills, Sir John Mills as Gus. I'm like, he looked like he was going to die on stage.

Like he was old and blind and like embodied that versus a 20, you know, uh, on tour, a 25 year old coming out to be Grizabella. And I think that like, they can make up for it with the emotion and the acting ability and the powerhouse singing. It was like, I'm like, yeah, go next year. You know, like material kind of, yeah, the material kind of supersedes any like age thing. And of course the makeup. I mean, I love that inflatable sets to work cause it was so rickety rackety, but the cast was so talented. And I love seeing that the gal who played Grizabella, I remember was also the company manager. I'm like, they're keeping it lean. I digress though. But I, yeah, I think it's a matter of, um, it's, it's really, it's really contingent on having a woman who can really deliver that song, you know, and I keep bringing up Betty, but you probably read about, she went through this whole challenge of being told she had to stop the show and she didn't know how to stop the show, but then she eventually learned how to stop the show.

Fascinating. I think, you know, with so much history, there's just so many ways that can go. And my, you know, my joke is I want to do an Edwin Drew a style one. Like I want a version where we get to vote and pick somebody different at the end. And I'm like, why can't we have it? Like we've had, we got ballroom cats coming next year to the pack. I can't wait. I cannot wait. I am so excited for them to tweak it and fun. And it's such an amazing producing group and director. Um, I hoping to do all kinds of stuff with them next year when it comes and I will definitely be there. Uh, just, they, they are a very, very talented bunch to like rethink this. And so I'm excited to see what they, what they're going to do and just how they're going to completely redo it while still having enough of it to, to like play off of the, Hey, this is still a little bit of cats, but it's different.

Um, I do have one other hot take of crazy. Oscar Jones is a boring song and I will always skip. So you need to go on the road Caribbean cruise where they do the oasis of the seas because he was cut from the show. Oh, brilliant. See, so you're ready. We all, we all went, I'm sure the show was much better for it. That was the, that was the cut. They needed to make it a no intermission, 90 minute show. And Buster for Jones was one of the cats just like, Oh, we don't, we don't need him. Perfect. Uh, that is a hot take, but not a, not a flaming hot take. I think, I guess not. I think there's a, there's some consensus there. Um, okay. Let's see some rapid fire so we can get to the, you know, the real important question.

Um, if you, I know you've kind of already answered this already, but if you could go on for one night as any cat, who would you want to perform? Is it Grizabella still? I would think, you know, if they were looking to, to um, to be, to cast, uh, to cast gender blind, it would be Grizabella, but then it would also be, I, I think that, um, old Deuteronomy has some of the most beautiful music that, that Anthony Webber's ever written. I think his little, his old musical monologues are just so great. It was a lot too. And I'm a baritone. I always, I ask this question, usually saying like forget if you can sing it, dance it, male, female, whatever. Cause I can't do any of them. So when I'm thinking about it, I'd be like, I could, I can't sing.

I can't dance. I can't doing this. If I had the, if I'm based off of that and I could just like, I would love to do that and be able to do it. I would choose the hesitation, Mr. Mistoffelees. Yeah. To be able to do the turns and to do the turns where that jacket like jumped down and go, Presto, you know, come on. It's great. I, my answer for the similar reason is I think it'd be really fun to do, um, Mungo Jerry because it'd be fun to have that. Like, I love the non-British version as well. Like the, the Broadway version, then you get to do it kind of with the scene partner. You get to dance with another cat and you get to do those cartwheels, which I can imagine if I was a child trying to attempt it with my sibling, like, which we would have hurt ourselves the same way we hurt ourselves trying to be the three ninjas and whatever else we saw happening on any movie we saw.

Uh, but that was my, always kind of my, my go-to answer. Or you pick something that's so vastly out of character for you. Cause it's the architects. What's the one that's not you normally? So you can go experience the chaos of that other type of personality. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So you gave me, you gave me your least favorite, which was Busterford Jones, but who's your favorite cat personality-wise? Personality-wise? Oh, let me think about this. I think, you know, I love, um, I'm blanking on who's the ones who's saying, um, uh, uh, Bomb and Demeter, Bombayrina and Demeter. Yes. I love them. I love their, I love their sexiness, their sass. They know what's up. Like they have the best number in the show.

Um, I love their outfit. Like their, I remember when I saw it when I was a kid, I remember that it was the late eighties. Um, and these two women sitting in front of me, like were just dressed up in their normal outfit, but they have like, um, they have like kind of Mohawks and like, like they were wearing very tight, you know, colorful leggings and stuff. And they looked like them, like, Oh my God, it's the cats. They're just like New York gals out on the town. And I remember them like, that's so New York. So they're my jam. I love it. I love it. Um, is that your favorite song? My next question is favorite song from the show. I mean, besides memory, of course, but yeah, I love that song. That's one of the best female duets.

And there are not a lot of female duets in musical theater. That's one of the best. Yeah. Um, my fun question, which cat do you think would be the best content creator? I think it would probably be, um, Rum Tum Tucker. I would be, he would be out there, you know, his peeps, he would be, he would be doing something with his like, he'd be creating like a little cult on YouTube. I'm sure. Yeah. I have, I've thought about this because of like, you've said, you've got to be niche that there's a lot of ways to answer this question. I could see bus for Jones cook. I could see Victoria doing all the tick-tock dances. I could like, sure. Bomb and Demeter doing all the same type of, you know, back and forth kind of, uh, voiceover comedy dances.

There's just so many things doing knitting talk. Yeah, exactly. Scandal Shanks is creating something, you know, like the people that build all those like crazy things or like Mark Rober. Yeah. There's.

[39:03] Mike Abrams: I have argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the right choice.

[39:15] Broadway Bob: So, are you going to defend Grizabella or are you going to choose a different cat of choice?

[39:21] Mike Abrams: You know, I have to say Grizabella is the right choice. I have to. I mean, I know it's going against your entire vision for this podcast, but listen, she has an opportunity to, she had some crap happen to her and she needs a fresh restart. I feel myself these days with everything going on in my life, I feel a little bit like a Grizabella and damn if I wouldn't love to like fly up in a saucer and be pushed in the clouds and come back reborn, like that would be the best thing to happen to me right now. So, I really think that Grizabella was the right choice.

[40:00] Broadway Bob: Okay. I'm very sorry.

[40:01] Mike Abrams: No, I mean, she still has more than half the votes, but it's just over half and that to me is vindication that a show that has been around for 40 plus years, I've got at least almost half of the people saying, you know what, you're right, there's different ways. Let me ask you a couple follow-up questions and see if I can slowly talk you out of it through some logic and reasoning.

[40:27] Broadway Bob: Okay.

[40:27] Mike Abrams: If you're old Deuteronomy, what's your criteria every year for the Jellicle choice?

[40:33] Broadway Bob: Um, the one who needs it the most, um, the one who can belt the best, um, the, um, the one who I think has the purest soul, perhaps.

[40:48] Mike Abrams: Okay. You had me Grizabella until that part, because I think you could argue need and you can, I mean, belt for sure. But purest soul, I don't think would be Grizabella.

[41:01] Broadway Bob: I think, I think she's lived a hard life, but she has a pure soul. I think you can be a, you can, you can have been around the block, but you can have a soul that, that, um, you know, I think all the other ones demonstrate some, some kind of flaw and like there's greed, there's lust, there's envy, there's all this stuff. And Grizabella is just trying to survive. Right. She just, what about Gus?

[41:21] Broadway Bob: Um, Gus, uh, well, he did a whole number that basically exploited Asians. So I think, uh, until 2016. So yeah. I mean, he, he's, he's living, he's, he is longing for stardom, you know?

[41:41] Mike Abrams: So yeah. So there's still some, okay. I can, yeah. I can see longing for he's, he's, he's not living in the moment. He's living in the past. So who's next year? Let's say we, we asked Grizabella this year, is there somebody else coming back or who's next? Like, how do they make next year's choice?

[42:04] Broadway Bob: I would say if I were to look at the list of, and I have a list of cats pulled up here on Wikipedia, I would think Gus would probably be the most logical next choice. I mean, he is the one that, um, probably needs it the most. Um, and I think, you know, I think the rest of them would be, would be just fine. Maybe Victoria. I think she seems like she needs to like, I don't know.

[42:34] Mike Abrams: My hot take is Victoria was last year's choice and this is her being reborn.

[42:38] Broadway Bob: Oh, that's sick. I haven't heard you say that. I like that.

[42:42] Mike Abrams: It was brought up with a Victoria in an episode. I'm drawing a blank on which Victoria. Uh, and I was like, I think that's, I think that's right. I think that she, that's her being reborn and that's why she's white and pure and has her moments. Um, because she was last year. But I love the, as we think about this again, going back to, I don't think they thought about this at all, but we're all given one ball and I'm sitting here going, well, who's next year? Who's the year after what other Jellicle cats are out in the wild that we don't even know about?

[43:11] Broadway Bob: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I think that, I think that there's a cat that's still out there that we don't know of. I don't think these are all the cats because if I were old Deuteronomy and I'm looking at the list of people, I'd be like, y'all are jerks. You need to get your stuff together. And, and then maybe you can consider for the hobby. So clear.

[43:31] Mike Abrams: Okay. So if we have a cat out there that's unnamed right now, what's that cat's name? What's your guess on the, like, I mean, these names are crazy.

[43:39] Broadway Bob: Um, Snifflebottom.

[43:45] Mike Abrams: Snifflebottom. I love it. And what is Snifflebottom's story?

[43:50] Broadway Bob: Snifflebottom, um, Snifflebottom came from a very rich household. Um, but then the, um, the owner passed away and Snifflebottom found himself going from a very high and extravagant life to having to, um, be in foster care and had to go around to all different houses. And, um, and no one knew his real name because he never had, they never knew what his name was. And finally he just kind of lost himself after a while because no one knew who he was because he never had a consistent owner, but for a good chunk of his life, he was living, living a high. I think that's his backstory. And he's really good. He's really good at hiding.

[44:35] Mike Abrams: He sounds like he's next year's choice. Like he's got the same rough past. He's got to come back. He's pure soul, ready to go. He's a little different than Grizabella though, because, um, he, rather than belting his song, he, he mimes aggressively.

[44:54] Broadway Bob: Oh, mimes. I was going to say hip hop, but we've already tried that. We've tried that in the show and it didn't go well.

[45:02] Mike Abrams: Well, yeah, they didn't, they have them a London revival. They had the London Tugger. Um, but yeah, he doesn't have to belt. Let's give them some other, you know, something like even more obscure for that. Maybe he yodels.

[45:12] Broadway Bob: I think yodeling is good. I think, um, maybe he's really good at, um, maybe he's really good at, like, just doing a lot of jumping jacks.

[45:25] Mike Abrams: Or he's going to parkour the junkyard.

[45:30] Broadway Bob: Could be that, or he's just really good at, he, he's really good at choosing, um, choosing good books to read.

[45:37] Mike Abrams: Oh, okay.

[45:42] Broadway Bob: It doesn't present well on a stage, but if you're looking for a good book, he will know, he'll look at you and be like, this is the book.

[45:48] Mike Abrams: He's, he, he has got you ready to go for, yeah, you got to finish your Goodreads, your Goodreads goal by the end of December. And he's got,

[45:58] Broadway Bob: It doesn't make for a good musical.

[46:01] Mike Abrams: No, he is. That is his magical power. And it's so powerful. We have to sacrifice that. We just can't have people reading all, all willy nilly around here. They we've got to get this guy out.

[46:14] Broadway Bob: I think I need to do more cocaine to shoot, to make up that story. I think that's what I need to do. There is a, um, there is a group on Tumblr that has a version of this, not Snifflebottom, but they have a, they either act as a cat or they create their own characters and they live real life scenarios through chatting. I've not done it. I have had interviews with people who are into it and it sounds fascinating.

[46:39] Mike Abrams: It sounds way more wholesome than what I thought it was going to be when I first heard about it.

[46:43] Broadway Bob: Yeah.

[46:44] Mike Abrams: And I think Snifflebottom has, has a life there.

[46:48] Broadway Bob: I would, you know, I, at first I love that they're doing, I think that's, I just, I, um, I think that's, that's awesome. And maybe he does, maybe I should invest some time in building out this character beyond the 20 seconds I've given thought to it.

[47:04] Mike Abrams: I think when this comes out, this is going to be your viral TikTok. Actually, this is going to be the one that we both make and we're like, this is it. And then no one sees it, but I will, um, I will see if I can get, I know some, some, there are the, the one thing I've learned through this is there are some incredible cats artists. And so if you've got, if you're listening to this and you're one of those cats artists, and I will shoot this to a few of my, the ones I know, um, let's, let's see some Snifflebottom drawings. Like, can someone create us a Snifflebottom cat and we can have an image to go with that?

[47:36] Broadway Bob: I love it. I don't know where I came up with that name, but I'm actually, the more you say it, the more I'm like, yeah, that's, that's, that's correct. That is the correct response.

[47:45] Mike Abrams: I have joked about this at length, but, and I know it's in the poems, but Peter is my least favorite cat because you have the Rum Tum Tugger and Mr. Mistoffelees and Mungo Jerry and Rumple Teaser and Peter. And, and I'm like, you know, I need a Snifflebottom. Like I need, I need something creative or crazy. I don't need Peter.

[48:07] Broadway Bob: Peter, I guess I, you know, it's funny in the, the, our, our library that we have in the house, there's the T.S. Eliot book of poems. I remember reading it, but I never, I never read about Peter.

[48:19] Mike Abrams: Peter's in the naming of cats. And as one of the, one of the, you know, they have the three names. It's one of the examples and the bus Gus in 2016 is called Peter when they dance in the ensemble. And I'm always like, you know, they're just usually not named or there was other names for that cat. And for some reason it was Peter in there. And the whole time I'm like, you poor, you get to do Gus, you get to do Buster for Jones. And you also have to do Peter.

[48:46] Broadway Bob: What's the best name that someone's come up with for, for that answer?

[48:50] Mike Abrams: Do you remember?

[48:51] Broadway Bob: I've never, uh, for the, like the, um, Tumblr.

[48:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[48:54] Broadway Bob: I don't remember. They, they all had different, like they've created their own characters and it's like their own personas, but I don't remember any of the names. I'm sure I can look it up.

[49:02] Mike Abrams: I was asking about when you asked, like, what would the name of the cat be that if you were to choose a cat?

[49:07] Broadway Bob: Like, I've only asked, I've only asked that to you. I've never, I've never asked that.

[49:10] Mike Abrams: Oh, it feels so special.

[49:11] Broadway Bob: Yeah. Yeah. No, I was, um, I, I liked the idea of thinking that there are more out there. Cause one of my, my anti-Griz arguments is, is that if you are saying that there's her need because she's been away, then do we have a cat every year that's coming back? Like, is that part of how Deuteronomy is choosing? And that makes me think, how are the, you know, what other Jellicles are out there in the world that we don't know about? Cause they weren't there tonight at this ball. And then it's like, wow, that's a whole different story. That's cats two and three and four, because you can start following all the different characters.

[49:49] Mike Abrams: I think that all of the cats become like Isabella at some point, you know, they're like, that's not me. It's about entitlement and then realizing that life's actually like, and then succumbing and becoming humble to the reality of life in some way.

[50:04] Broadway Bob: And they're not, I think, I think humility is one of the things that's part of the choosing.

[50:11] Mike Abrams: So that cuts the guts out. That's, that's how you're getting guts out of there.

[50:14] Broadway Bob: Yeah.

[50:15] Mike Abrams: I love it. This has been so fun. Uh, we're going to, we're going to figure out stuff a lot of them. I can't wait to, to get that, try to figure out a drawing for that. I have to come up with this introductory song.

[50:29] Broadway Bob: Yeah. What's his song, the style. We can have somebody choreograph a dance. Um, there's the, you know, who's, who's, he's going to have relationships with or she, he or she. Well, I mean, do we know, uh, that's still to be, to be determined.

[50:43] Mike Abrams: We don't know. We don't know. I, you know, maybe I'll, after this, I'll type in the chat GPT and say, write the lyrics to a song in the style of an angelic rubber for a cat named Snifflebottom. We'll figure out what it says.

[50:54] Broadway Bob: See what we get. I love it. We will share all of this when this episode comes out. So cool. Um, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time. How can people find you stay in touch with everything you're doing and keep up with you?

[51:08] Broadway Bob: Yeah. Um, you can find me on Instagram at the Broadway Bob and I'm TikTok, just Broadway Bob. Um, I also have a podcast that I'm really proud of called The Sunset Project, which is about the musical Sunset Boulevard, which is, um, not that dissimilar to Cats in terms of love of it, but it is having a resurgence with the revival in London right now, which is great. Um, but yeah, that's how you can find me. Even more Andrew Lloyd Webber craziness, which is, which is fun. Well, thank you. And thanks everyone for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died. I had the podcast breakdown of the cast. To follow along, you could subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of us in the podcast, Paul's on Twitter and Instagram threads and TikTok at The Wrong Cat Died or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.