This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the cat's catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. She was a swing on the US National Tour 5 in 2006, and then was Demeter, closing the 2016 Broadway Revival of Cats. So welcome, Samantha Sturm, and thank you for joining me.

[0:32] Samantha Sturm: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have you here. I've talked to so many people from 2016's revival that at this point I'm like, who's left? And I was so excited when you said yes, because it's fun to hear. And it's really fun to hear and talk to people who got to do both choreographies, because it's not that many people that got to do that. So we will get there, but start at the beginning. When was the first time you ever saw Cats?

[0:59] Samantha Sturm: Oh, so I kind of lived off of the movie version.

[1:06] Samantha Sturm: The VHS.

[1:06] Samantha Sturm: The VHS, yes, before DVDs were invented, when I was pretty young. And I kind of wore out my tape. And then when I was, I think, 12 or 13, I was at a summer camp. And a woman who had played Cassandra on Broadway came and guest taught at this camp. And she taught us Copeland, which was kind of the most famous choreography from the ball. And I remember learning that and I was hooked. And I couldn't stop doing the choreography over and over and watching the tape.

[1:46] Mike Abrams: And so this was 12. So you're doing a part of the ball as a 12 year old.

[1:51] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:52] Mike Abrams: Wow. Okay. That's an age for that, I guess. But it's also a famous choreography, really.

[1:59] Samantha Sturm: Yeah.

[1:59] Mike Abrams: So you were a dancer, I'm guessing, growing up watching this tape.

[2:03] Samantha Sturm: I was. Both my parents were dancers.

[2:05] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[2:06] Samantha Sturm: And so I was dancing from a very young age. And I always wanted to do musicals when I was, I'm told, four or five. I saw my first Gene Kelly film. And that's when I was like, well, that's what I want to do when I grow up. I want to be Gene Kelly, but a girl.

[2:27] Mike Abrams: Wow. Okay. So you get to do this section. You now are watching this. And then you go through high school. And then very early, you said you're 19 years old, you said.

[2:37] Samantha Sturm: Yeah.

[2:38] Mike Abrams: You booked the national tour. So what was that like? I guess the conversation with your parents and the rehearsal process as a 19 year old with college and school and all the other stuff. It's like it's a tough decision at that point in life.

[2:55] Samantha Sturm: It should be, I guess. It was not a tough decision for me. I feel like I have to give a little bit of backstory here. But my mom was a principal ballerina with the Washington Ballet in DC.

[3:12] Samantha Sturm: Wow.

[3:12] Samantha Sturm: She was a hardcore ballerina. And my dad did more modern and jazz. And he went to grad school and got a masters and did the whole thing. And my mom was taught that college was for the people that couldn't make it. If you weren't good enough, you went to college that you could teach.

[3:31] Samantha Sturm: So I didn't want to go to college. I wanted to be good enough. So I was very resistant to going to school. And my parents made a deal with me that I had to do at least one year and then I could do what I wanted. But I had to at least try.

[3:48] Samantha Sturm: One year of college.

[3:49] Mike Abrams: One year of college.

[3:50] Samantha Sturm: Okay.

[3:51] Samantha Sturm: And then we could reassess, but I had to at least try for one year.

[3:54] Mike Abrams: That's kind of a tough conversation with your mom who basically said you're a failure, right? If you go to college, you fail. And she's like, you got to go do one year first.

[4:02] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Well, she didn't say that to me, but that's kind of how the mentality she grew up with.

[4:06] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[4:07] Samantha Sturm: Yeah.

[4:08] Samantha Sturm: Because especially in her time of dancing, that was life and in the ballet world, especially too. But because I want to do theater and I didn't want to be a ballerina, the training was pretty necessary. So I was pretty resistant to auditioning for colleges. Bless my dad. He took me to every college audition. He worked so hard to get me to go to school. And I ended up going to ADA, which is an acting conservatory here in the city, not to be confused with AMDA.

[4:45] Samantha Sturm: I just learned what AMDA is, so don't worry.

[4:48] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Great. And I quit dancing for the year, basically. The most dancing I did was movement for the actor where my movement teacher first semester never once called me by my name. He only called me Freaky Dancer Girl.

[5:02] Samantha Sturm: Wow.

[5:02] Samantha Sturm: And yeah. And I was just barely 18 because I was also always really young for my age or young for my grade and very sheltered and kind of wide-eyed in New York City. And we were in school and I knew that this was going to be my one year and I didn't want to come back. Even though I was invited back for second year and my teachers were very upset with me when I told them I didn't want to come back. And one of my professors said to me, um, well, you know, musical theater isn't real theater, right?

[5:42] Samantha Sturm: Wow.

[5:44] Samantha Sturm: And she goes, you'll never make it.

[5:46] Mike Abrams: Wow. Such motivating the youth here. Professors.

[5:51] Samantha Sturm: So supportive. But I auditioned for the tour that year when I was in school. I missed rehearsal for one of my exam plays to go audition for the tour because I thought, well, I know Copeland, so how much harder can it be than this? And I, uh, didn't, I didn't book it and I was devastated. And then, um, I left school and I went back home and I was working, uh, at a dinner theater in Maryland. Toby's Dinner Theater of Columbia, Maryland, where you wait the tables as well as be in the show. And, uh, and I saw that they were having auditions again for Cats. So I took the train back up to New York and auditioned and then I booked it.

[6:37] Mike Abrams: And you booked it and you booked it as a swing, which blows my mind to be able to just do in general of like, Hey, we're not just going to learn one character. You did what I have six, five.

[6:49] Samantha Sturm: I think I did five. I was thinking about it today and I believe I swung five.

[6:54] Mike Abrams: Okay. I can tell you what was listed. It was Cassandra, Bombalurina, Demeter, Rumpleteazer, Victoria.

[7:01] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Yeah.

[7:02] Mike Abrams: Which I can't fathom doing Bombalurina and Demeter like on back-to-back nights of the same kind of choreography, but in opposite sides and other half of the song, like that is just insane to me.

[7:15] Samantha Sturm: You know, it's interesting. It becomes easy, especially with people like them or cats like them that are counterparts because they're always together. So you kind of can see you the hole to fill.

[7:24] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. And you know, the other cats are very good about kind of shoving you with a paw in the right direction if you're not doing the right thing. But there were definitely days when I was on for so many different people. I would have to look at my unitard and see what color unitard I was wearing. And if I had leg warmers on, and if I did, then I would know who I was. And there were definitely some times when I would be on and I would look down because I would be confused and then be like, oh crap, I'm a kitten and have to drop to the ground because I was standing and I shouldn't be standing.

[8:12] Mike Abrams: Wow. Yeah. So you're super young. You go on tour. You're probably the youngest in the cast. What do you remember about being like part of that family, being your first time, you know, in this professional, true professional gig and going all around the country on a tour that's been going for years at that point, right? Like it's kind of midway through its cycle.

[8:36] Samantha Sturm: You know, it's interesting. It was hard. I definitely felt left out a lot because there was just a lot that I couldn't participate in because I was under 21. I really enjoyed when we were in Canada because I was able to drink with the cast or when we were in Brazil and Chile because my year of tour, we went to Brazil for a month and Chile for a week, which was incredible.

[9:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah. But I also, partway through the year, also became the assistant stage manager, assistant company manager as the youngest person on tour. And I would call the show sometimes.

[9:23] Samantha Sturm: Wow. So you were in the booth or whatever calling for as a 19 year old.

[9:29] Samantha Sturm: Yep. Lights 124, go. Lights 125, go. Like that was me.

[9:33] Mike Abrams: Wow. That is impressive. Okay. So then mom made it. You're not just professionally doing it. You are, you're doing it all.

[9:40] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Look at me, mom. That is incredible. Okay. So you do this tour, you do your year there and you call the show, you get to know the show really intimately by doing that. And then it's 10 years, almost 11 years later. So there's obviously career in between there, but what was that moment like when you realized, Hey, there's a chance to be part of this revival?

[10:07] Samantha Sturm: Well, I certainly was excited about it. And I was really excited that, uh, Andy was going to update the choreographer choreography because I, um, I've always had a lot of respect for him and I felt like the movement could use an update and I know his storytelling and I thought that that could be a really interesting, uh, update to the original material. And I was like, well, I did the tour and no brainer. I knew Copeland when I was 12, clearly ready to go.

[10:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So I, I want to talk a little bit about that because there's definitely, I didn't realize how big of a, I've only seen these choreography live and I've seen the VHS, the same copy. I mean, I've seen it on an iPad because I didn't have a VHS, but like, there are definitely people who listen to this podcast who are what I call, I call them traditionalists. It's like, it is Julian Lynn's choreography or nothing. And then there's like a lot of people that kind of see the value of both. So having done both, what are some of the updates that you noticed that you thought were, you know, like it stays pretty true to her, like it honors her choreography, but there are some differences. So you've got the experience, both sides of it. What are some of those things that you noticed that you can kind of speak to about those differences?

[11:37] Samantha Sturm: I thought that, you know, we kept, we, I wasn't in the original cast of the revival, but the, a lot of the most iconic choreography is still there. That was untouched. Copeland is still there.

[11:54] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. You know, Victoria's solo is still there. There's the, the, the things that, yeah, you know, Mr. Mistoffelees huge turn sequence still there. Like there's lots of things that I feel would be criminal to touch and Andy knew that.

[12:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah, for sure.

[12:15] Samantha Sturm: And, uh, they stayed, but I thought that a lot of storytelling got a lot clearer and, um, you know, it's a hard plot to figure out anyway.

[12:28] Mike Abrams: You're telling me 150 episodes later trying to figure it out.

[12:32] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Yeah. But I thought that he made the, the plot a little more understandable and feel a little more succinct.

[12:39] Mike Abrams: Is there anything in particular that you like stood out from that? Like, what do you, when you say that, like, cause I, I saw the reverse. So like, I'm, I'm asking out of, out of no knowledge to be able to add to this conversation because I, I, again, I watched it in the reverse. Like I, this is, I can tell, talk to you for hours about the backstory of the characters, but this particular topic is, is very hard for me as someone who's not a dancer. Like I, I know Copeland as in, it's been said to me enough times. I know it's a very famous piece of choreography. If you ask me to like,

[14:42] Samantha Sturm: People start undulating and getting all this energy, and everybody starts, a couple people at a time, doing different choreography. And then, all of a sudden, the entire stage breaks out in the same choreography, where their knee shoots into their chest, their arm shoots up, and they all jump out, and their arms reach up to the sky. I, so I now know what you're talking about purely because when I TikTok and I use those green screen things, that's one picture I use very frequently. And it's one of the classic, okay, so I now know, thank you, now I know what Copeland is. I've never known, I've heard it, but now I know. Okay, so I want to go back to coming into Broadway. So you come in partway through.

You're going to close the show, you're at the end. You get brought in through a rehearsal process and everything. I'm always fascinated by how much you're told of the character development when you're not in that initial, everyone together storytelling. So how much do they tell you about Demeter, or how much do they say, you've already done this, you get it, add your own?

[15:54] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, I think I was very lucky in that I was already so deeply familiar with the material and the source material that, and I already had such a very clear vision of who Demeter was, and who she was to me, that I was really allowed to have free reign over her as a character. And I wasn't given as much backstory on her because I didn't really need it. Yeah, you come in and you know it. So they're saying, here's the changes, here's the choreography change, here's a couple story plot changes that you need to know. But you don't need to know her backstory with Macavity and all that stuff because that was told to you. What do you remember from 2006 when you were on your tour when they did that whole, because you were learning five backstories.

[16:55] Samantha Sturm: I was. What do you remember about what they told you then? Uh, I remember, you know, Demeter had been, had lived a hard life. She was probably a street cat. She had been kidnapped by Macavity and used and abused by him. Yeah. And somehow escaped him, but still had this odd fascination with him. Yeah. And was terrified of him, but also obsessed with him and could always feel his presence before she even saw or knew that he was there. She could just feel that he was there and was desperate to be part of the tribe again and was loved by the tribe. And it was like a teenager cat as opposed to a kitten or an adult cat.

[17:57] Samantha Sturm: Yep. What about the, do you remember some of the other ones? Because you have to do Victoria, right? You've got to do Rumpelteazer. Those two have very different stories.

[18:08] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Well, you know, Victoria loses her virginity.

[18:13] Samantha Sturm: On stage.

[18:14] Samantha Sturm: On stage. And the Victoria solo is her discovering her body and kind of figuring that out for the first time, which was really interesting because I was on that tour, I was a very innocent, inexperienced young lady. And so I, uh, I did not really understand a lot of the movement that I, especially as Bombalurina, like I really had to, um, I really had to fake it till I made it with being the sexy cat. But so if you go back to that moment too, like you're hearing these stories, you did it as a 12 year old or you learned pieces of it as a 12 year old.

[18:59] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. You've watched this VHS as a child. Like, was that, did you realize any of that? Or was that very much during that process? You're like, whoa, wait a second. What did I miss?

[19:09] Samantha Sturm: It wasn't until adulthood where I had a moment of like, oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah. And, and even a lot of that I didn't have until the Broadway, until I did it on Broadway.

[19:26] Mike Abrams: Really?

[19:27] Samantha Sturm: Yeah.

[19:27] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[19:29] Samantha Sturm: I had lived so much more life and, uh, had so much more life experience that I, there were so many things that I understood that I most certainly did not understand when I was on tour.

[19:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, as 19, you're, you have your one year of college under your belt and that's it. And so you are, I kind of envision, I saw this for the first show as an adult who moved here, you know, to New York and was very mesmerized by like, wait a second, what did I just watch? But I didn't know the lure of all this before. So I just was like, this is, this is something. But even I didn't pull half of that stuff together of like, you know, and then as you get told it, that makes sense. I see it now, but that's gotta be such a polarizing thing to learn at that age. And then also bring back 10 years later into your life.

[20:25] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Well, I think, um, a lot of things didn't fully land for me when I was 19. You know, I, I was told the information, but I don't think it really processed until I was an actual adult.

[20:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. That's, I mean, for sure. I think it's also that's experienced too, as a performer actor, but also there's, you know, I don't think you've became more cat, you know, in 10 years, but you definitely can relate to more of the interpersonal pieces of the content at points.

[20:59] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Yeah. No, at 19, I was really just angry. If I didn't kick myself in the head, every time I did a bop ma, I would come off stage and be angry. If I didn't touch my shin to my forehead every single time, it was a failure of a show.

[21:13] Mike Abrams: We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. Were there any moments on tour that were like super memorable? Cause I mean, obviously you were again, really young, but you're doing all these different tracks. You're the child of the, you're calling it, you're doing all these different things. Like what, what stands out from that? I mean, it's been many years now.

[21:35] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. I mean, uh, I have a lot of moments. I, there are a lot of stories that I tell from that tour, uh, that were insane. And a lot of that was frankly, things that didn't necessarily happen to me. It was stuff that I witnessed happen on tour, um, because we had the blow up set. So it was, I call it the bounce castle. Yes. It's what it was. Uh, it's a moon bounce. And there was one day during, um, Rum Tum Tugger where there's a tag on at the end of the song. And in the original choreography, Rum Tum Tugger is up on the car trunk in a spotlight dancing. And the entire cast is facing upstage, watching him doing all this choreography. And Dave, the guy that was playing Rum Tum Tugger, uh, started to, he lost his balance and he started to fall backwards and you weren't supposed to touch the balloon, but he couldn't catch his balance.

Everybody was dancing and you saw Dave. And then suddenly you just saw a hand and a tail because he had fallen between the trunk and the moon bounce. And everybody on stage lost their minds, but then Grizabella enters and everybody is supposed to be serious and scared. And everybody was laughing hysterically.

[23:04] Samantha Sturm: Do you remember who you were? Were you on that night?

[23:04] Samantha Sturm: I wasn't. I was watching on the monitor backstage, dying with laughter.

[23:10] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, you got, you didn't have to get serious. Everyone else did. You got to keep laughing. What was the craziest, um, like broken moment you had to deal with as calling the show? Like, was there any times where you had to like really quickly fix something? Cause something went crazy wrong?

[23:22] Samantha Sturm: No, they, uh, I would call the entire show until, uh, there was one section of the show that I never called. They always had the PSM call. So I, you had to, um, cue several things at one time. And so, you know, for most of the show, uh, our stage manager would be either, if I was calling, she would be out taking notes or watching or, you know, doing one of the other stage manager tracks. But then for this one moment in the show, it was during, was it during Growl Tiger? Did you have the, the like boat that came down for Growl Tiger?

[24:13] Mike Abrams: We had a piece of a boat and then a drop.

[24:13] Samantha Sturm: Okay. Cause I know earlier productions had like a ship come down essentially during that number, but I don't know if it was in the bounce castle. So it was a drop that came down in front of the bounce castle. And then we had like a, a piece of a ship little set piece that people could stand on and jump off of. Um, and then all of our, uh, I hate even saying it, all of our Siamese costumes, uh, were, were giant and cumbersome.

[24:56] Samantha Sturm: And we had these really huge, weren't they back in the back of that? Essentially of that. Again, this is a number I don't know as well because one I've seen as often, it was rightfully eliminated in the revival. Very rightfully.

[25:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[25:07] Samantha Sturm: So it's, they're behind the boat essentially, or like on the boat technically when they're having that section, but you didn't call that cause that's too many things going on.

[25:18] Samantha Sturm: It's just always too many things. And especially at the end of that number, the drop, uh, is released from a magnet and one of the cats has to run it off stage. And there's also big light changes happening. Uh, so I never called that moment and I, no, I did call, I did call the spaceship at the end of the show. And then I would talk to Grizabella on the phone cause they had a little phone for her in the, in the, in the production on tour.

[26:05] Mike Abrams: I like lack of a better term, a spaceship drops down from the ceiling and she climbs into it, hooks herself in and then it takes her back up into the rafters of the theater. And, um, there was a little, in case there was, you know, an emergency or a problem, there's a little phone in the, in the, um, spaceship. It's like a car phone, 2016 car phone in the spaceship.

[26:13] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. That's, did you like, did you set out to, to call, like to do the assistance? Like, was that something you wanted to do or is it just, uh, no.

[26:19] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. So what happened was our, there was some large fights that went down. I won't tell you all the details. We can talk about it when it's not recording, but there were some large fights that, uh, happened in our cast and, um, some behavior was displayed by some people that was not the best.

[26:49] Samantha Sturm: And the person who was originally the assistant stage manager, assistant company manager was asked to step down from the role. And when the general manager asked the crew who they thought should take over, apparently everybody said me.

[27:10] Mike Abrams: Wow. That's, that's, I mean, great. Right? Like that's an honor.

[27:10] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, absolutely. So you had a spicy first professional tour. It sounds like, yeah.

[27:18] Mike Abrams: Okay. It was spicy. That is, uh, we won't say anymore. We don't want to get anybody in trouble.

[27:23] Samantha Sturm: We don't want to say any names, but I'm sure there are people that can go read and find stuff or find versions of stories of stuff that's out there, but okay. Let's, let's, let's move on.

[27:35] Mike Abrams: Um, I don't want to, I don't want to dwell on that anymore too much. Um, so I am a little curious about with your cast, I've talked to a lot of the 2016 cast and there it finishes and then it goes immediately on tour. So a couple of people kind of continued to go on tour, but then the movie came out, which is what started this podcast. Did you all like, I've heard some of the stories off this podcast, but like, what was your all's reaction being really the closest to the, the, you know, the content at that moment, like you had finished, I think it's probably two years after you finished that the movie comes out. So there's this tour going on, but you all were really the ones where I'm like, you just did it. So did you all have this, like, what is happening kind of text conversation? Like how did your cast unfold with the trailer?

[28:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean we had all the conversations we also they were developing it when we were still open. So Andy would come back for cleanup rehearsals and we'd be like, "Andy, what's going on? Yeah, give us the scoop."

[28:39] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, I didn't think they were making it while you were still performing.

[28:46] Mike Abrams: So, I know there had been some makeup trials and CGI trials that happened before they even filmed that were not desirable.

[29:02] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, but we were all very curious as to what was gonna happen and everybody kind of kept trying to be like, "Andy, well, what characters do you need for this movie? Yeah, we're available. Yeah, you need an answer. You need a cat back."

[29:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that is fun. Okay, I don't want to dwell anymore on that movie. I just was curious because you all were very close to it and I know that that was like had to be a little bit of a bizarre time of having such a different version of it coming out when you've had something and you all had kind of a slightly different version to begin with.

[29:38] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, but okay. I want to do some rapid-fire. So if you could go on for one night with any cat whether it's male-female in your vocal range, whatever, just if you could go perform one night, who you going on with?

[29:48] Samantha Sturm: I am sticking with Demeter. We want to stay with Demeter. Yeah, I think I'm doubling down. I'm sticking with Demeter.

[29:59] Mike Abrams: You had fun. You've done it twice. You're ready for round three.

[30:04] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, you know, she gets to dance like a fiend and she gets to sing her face off and you get to do some really great acting. Yeah, and character work. You really do have a track that has a ton of the acting because there's a lot of it's one of the few backstories where it's like, "No, this one's very well developed."

[30:20] Samantha Sturm: There's a lot and so there's a lot that's not said that's very well implied that you have to convey with body movements and dance numbers and just the way you portray on stage versus some of the other ones which I think are a little bit more clear like, you know, Gus is old, you've got a portrayal of Grizabella's worn. Like you have these sums are very obvious and I think Demeter's one that's a little bit less but has a lot of depth.

[30:52] Mike Abrams: Yeah, absolutely. And she starts the show with the headlights from the car.

[31:01] Samantha Sturm: Okay, does she eat? Wait, so do you not get to do "Green Eyes" then? You don't have to do "Green Eyes"?

[31:07] Samantha Sturm: Don't have to or get to, which is it?

[31:10] Mike Abrams: Or get to, as I say. Did you enjoy that part?

[31:13] Samantha Sturm: It depended on the track and it depended on the theater on how hard it was to get back backstage.

[31:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah, for the opening number, that's okay. That makes sense if you go to like sprint around, you know, the lobby to get there in some cases. I'm sure, yeah, weird things. Did you ever just crawl up from like the aisle?

[31:40] Samantha Sturm: Huh? I think some cats could, but it kind of depended where you were stationed.

[31:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I guess that's true. There's like the second time I saw it on Broadway was I was up at the, you know, mezzanine or balcony. I was up and there are cats up there and they've got to somehow get down on stage quickly, which I'm sure is a trick.

[32:06] Samantha Sturm: It is, although, you know, they had a lot of cool little tunnels and things at the Neil Simon that were built in for the show made it easier. But on tour, you're at a different place all the time. Yeah, you're running all over the place. You're just praying that it's not bad.

[32:25] Mike Abrams: Okay, who are your favorite and least favorite characters in the show? So take people out of it, but which cat would you love and which cat would you not be friends with?

[32:35] Samantha Sturm: Love, I would say Jennyanydots. She's a riot. What a fun time. Yeah, she's a fun time gal and those sparkly shoes, please. What could be better?

[32:46] Mike Abrams: Get rid of Growltiger.

[32:48] Samantha Sturm: Bye, Growltiger. Okay, so he's not in your second time. So if I take him out, who's the other one?

[32:56] Samantha Sturm: I agree with that though completely. Yeah, I'm gonna get rid of... mmm...

[33:05] Mike Abrams: We're not even getting rid of just who would you not hang out with? Like you're the Jellicle tribe, you're friends with Jenny, you want to go have fun, have your drinks or your can of drinks? But who are you not inviting or who are you annoyed with as your family member?

[33:15] Samantha Sturm: I am not... hmm... Wow, I feel like Sophie's choice. Yeah, I think I'm good. I'm not hanging out with Old Deuteronomy.

[33:24] Mike Abrams: Okay, you're never getting picked in. You're just not.

[33:34] Samantha Sturm: Alright, I mean, I would like to get picked. I'd like some time to hang out with my people now that I'm back with them.

[33:42] Mike Abrams: Uh-uh.

[33:44] Samantha Sturm: No, he, I mean, we all love him. Although actually, you know what? I'm gonna change my answer. I think I'm dry. I don't care. I'm not enough about like Syllabub.

[33:58] Mike Abrams: Okay, I love this. That's a great one.

[34:03] Samantha Sturm: Just, you know what? Yeah, fine. The number one answer is Bustopher Jones.

[34:10] Mike Abrams: Oh, I forgot about him. I think I blocked him out. That's the problem, right?

[34:12] Samantha Sturm: Okay.

[34:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I don't disagree. Old Deuteronomy either, that's, you know, he's kind of intimidating and kind of comes in and he's a serial killer at some capacity.

[34:24] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, yeah.

[34:24] Mike Abrams: Okay, what's your favorite song from the show?

[34:29] Samantha Sturm: Okay, I love "Grizabella: The Glamour Cat," so the first act piece of it.

[34:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah, uh-huh. Okay, that's great. Yeah, that's not a common answer. I love it.

[34:43] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, that little section, I don't know. I think melodically that part is so pretty and haunting.

[34:49] Mike Abrams: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know exactly a party dog. It's great.

[34:54] Samantha Sturm: It is. Yeah, I love it because my answer changes depending on mood. But then when you ask, and I mean, there's a couple I distinctly don't like.

[34:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah, but most of them, like, oh, yeah, I never thought about that one. That's a great answer.

[35:04] Samantha Sturm: Okay, which cat is my always? I was just a fun one or slightly different one. And since you got thrown into the fire of calling the show, which cat do you think would be best at calling the show?

[35:16] Samantha Sturm: Skimbleshanks.

[35:22] Mike Abrams: Skimbleshanks. I so I think there's only two answers. It's Skimbleshanks or Munkustrap.

[35:28] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, but Skimbleshanks would be, yeah, he's no light is gonna be off at all.

[35:34] Mike Abrams: Perfectly on time.

[35:37] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, not on his watch.

[35:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's a very large watch. Yes.

[35:44] Mike Abrams: Okay, most important question. I've argued at length. I don't think Grizabella should be the Jellicle choice. So are you going to defend Grizabella or are you going to pick a different Jellicle choice?

[35:47] Samantha Sturm: I am NOT going to defend Grizabella.

[35:53] Mike Abrams: I love it. I don't care what you say next. That's all I needed to hear.

[35:57] Samantha Sturm: Great. Even though I want to hang out with her at all times, I think maybe Jennyanydots or...

[36:05] Mike Abrams: No, Jennyanydots? Okay. So give me a rationale for Jenny.

[36:10] Samantha Sturm: She works hard to be the one to get picked. She trains little mice. She teaches them how to make lace, which is what tatting?

[36:21] Mike Abrams: Yes, she, I like the bird. I didn't mean to...

[36:26] Samantha Sturm: No, no, I love that. It's great too because I had to look it up. I did not know.

[36:31] Samantha Sturm: I had this vision of like she's giving tattoos. I was like, that's how, that's just what I wanted it to be. I knew it was wrong. It should be it, but I'm like that would be so much better of just having her, you know, giving little tattoos to everybody. So I knew that was incorrect.

[36:43] Mike Abrams: Man, I like that better.

[36:48] Samantha Sturm: So I've kind of always still envisioned like she's crocheting, which I knew, and then she's getting tattoos. Frankly, that makes me want it to be her even more. I feel like she deserves it even more. Look at all these skills that she has passed on and has developed.

[37:03] Samantha Sturm: She's worked so hard to create this giant number to make her case and then they just leave her by the wayside.

[37:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah, are they okay today? How do they handle next year if she's gone? It seems like she's so important to them.

[37:19] Samantha Sturm: Who cares? She's coming back and someone will figure it out.

[37:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah, always picks up the reins. She's taught so many people how to tap dance. Somebody else will be able to do it.

[37:28] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, yeah, of course. They've all got their... their... what's that? I don't know what tattoo. I don't know what tattoo you'd give a cat, but they've all got their own new ink. They're ready to go.

[37:38] Mike Abrams: She's like mouse tails for each mouse that they've eaten or something.

[37:44] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, instead of like a... for all the cockroaches that they've taken care of, you know?

[37:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I'm a fan of that decision. Always chosen. She's got some votes, but she doesn't have them a lot, so...

[38:01] Samantha Sturm: Well for it. I do think she works hard. She definitely puts her effort into it.

[38:04] Samantha Sturm: I think her disadvantage is she's early in the show. As someone who thinks this is the X Factor on drugs, it's always tough to be like the second performer when you're voting the America's vote or Britain's vote or whoever's vote.

[38:22] Mike Abrams: It's usually the last two that have the best shot, but she skins herself alive, but what more could you ask?

[38:27] Samantha Sturm: I, you have to, you don't have to convince me. I am here for it.

[38:36] Mike Abrams: That huge coat comes off and she's in French, but that's her. I mean, yeah.

[38:44] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, she does a lot. She might sleep on, yeah, but she's gotta watch out.

[38:50] Mike Abrams: She's, yeah, she's watch out once she's awake. When she's awake, she is busy.

[38:57] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, I love it. I'm here for any non-Grizabella vote. So that's my goal is to slowly convince the voting public that she's the wrong choice.

[39:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah, Grizabella tries too hard. She's too much of a pick-me-girl. I think she just should spend next year with the family.

[39:14] Samantha Sturm: Like if you're gonna accept her back, nicer.

[39:18] Mike Abrams: You're just like forget her. I've done, you don't even want her to come back to the tribe. You're just send her back off.

[39:22] Samantha Sturm: But you know, Demeter, she has to be the broken one. That can't be two of us.

[39:29] Mike Abrams: That's true. Didn't I try hard enough to get back here? You're stealing my thunder already.

[39:37] Samantha Sturm: Is Grizabella Demeter's mom?

[39:41] Mike Abrams: I have never considered that ever.

[39:43] Samantha Sturm: No, okay, now, so let's put it to the test. It wasn't told to you. You never played it, but could it be possible?

[39:47] Samantha Sturm: Sure, it could absolutely be possible. I, in my brain, Demeter is fascinated by Grizabella because they have similar lived experiences.

[40:00] Samantha Sturm: And she is curious about her and fascinated about her but has heard so many stories about her that she's scared to talk to her but want, like, you know, she feels connection to her.

[40:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I've always felt she's like one wrong decision away from being her.

[40:23] Samantha Sturm: And so that's kind of like, ooh, so is Demeter Bombay Arena's sister or friend?

[40:30] Samantha Sturm: Sister.

[40:31] Mike Abrams: So that's kind of where I think it gets interesting of if Grizabella is the mom for those. Now, it might not work because if you're not kittens, she might be not old enough to be mom, but I think that's a really interesting proposition of Bombay Arena is the positive, glamorous side that she used to be of her as mom and daughter and you're the...

[40:55] Samantha Sturm: We are one or two bad decisions away from being following in mom's footsteps.

[41:01] Mike Abrams: Wow, yeah.

[41:03] Samantha Sturm: Wow, I gotta do it again. I know you're round three.

[41:07] Mike Abrams: Play it a slightly different way when she comes back.

[41:10] Samantha Sturm: Yeah, well, man, I don't know if my hips could handle that, but...

[41:15] Mike Abrams: If one of them's metal now, I don't know if I could do it.

[41:18] Samantha Sturm: Yo, I mean, there's still, I think what's cool about the show is you could come as other cats. Like there's a, you can play other characters and do it for years, but it's a little bit easier on the male track, I think, because you have Gus. So you can kind of like old Deuteronomy, Gus, you can kind of work your way through the ages, but I think, yeah, there's ways for you to keep doing this, you know?

[41:37] Mike Abrams: You're right. Thank you. I appreciate that.

[41:44] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Well, this has been fun. How can people stay in touch with you on social media, keep up with what you're doing?

[41:49] Samantha Sturm: I am on Instagram. I'm on TikTok. I think on Instagram I'm just @samanthasturm and on TikTok I'm @samanthasturmnyc.

[41:59] Mike Abrams: Great. We'll link everything too.

[42:03] Mike Abrams: And this has been so fun. Thank you for taking the time and sharing your experiences.

[42:10] Samantha Sturm: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

[42:16] Mike Abrams: Awesome. And thanks everyone for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breaking down the Cats defeat. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, Threads, and TikTok at The Wrong Cat Died or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.