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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm, to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the wrong one died. I'm the wrong one died.

[0:28] Mike Abrams: Welcome to the wrong cat. Die the podcast. Break down the cat. Sasha fee, I'm your host. Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. She was bomb ballerina in the 2016 Broadway revival of cats. So welcome Mackenzie Warren, and thank you for joining me. Thank you, Mike. I am excited because I know there's a couple things that we're gonna document on this podcast about your particular history with cats that have not been shared. So we will get to that. But I always start at your cat's history at the beginning. So you gotta tell me, when was the first time you saw the show? Was it a live production? Was it the movie? Where was it?

[1:01] Speaker 2: Yes, okay, going back in time, I definitely saw the the VHS that everybody saw, I guess I was the London production, and I wasn't obsessed with it, but I definitely was, like, freaked out by it, but like, couldn't look away, kind of like, oh my gosh, I can't look away. I'm fascinated by this. You know, I might have watched it, maybe two, maybe three times, but it wasn't one of the musicals that I was obsessed with growing up, and then I really didn't have any touch points with it at all, at all through college, even my early days in New York, really nothing. And then one of my best friends, Kim foray did the was the original cast of the revival. So I went to opening night, sat next to her husband, and I just was like, this is the most magical thing I've ever seen. It was so fun to go really not knowing anything about it, and it was such a huge dream come true for her, and I just fell in love with it. And also, as I was watching it, I was like, This looks so dang hard. I'm so glad I'm not up there right now. Like I'm get to sit here and enjoy and watch. I truly just had a blast. And I was like, I had a very different experience from I wasn't scared of it at all watching the revival production. I was so like, I just thought it was so beautiful and such a spectacle, and just like everybody's facilities and talent was just mind blowing.

[2:38] Mike Abrams: So, yeah, okay, so you were, were you a dancer, and that's why you saw the VHS? Was that like one of your classes, or is it just something that just popped up? Because as a non dancer, it never popped up in my childhood, of seeing that VHS that everyone in theater has at least saw at one point in their

[2:57] Speaker 2: childhood, right? Yes, I definitely grew up a dancer, but the movies I loved were West Side. Story was my all time favorite. And then any Fred Astaire, Fred and Ginger movies, or singing in the rain, I veered more towards those.

[3:12] Mike Abrams: Okay, so Okay, as I say, I wore out My Cousin Vinny and Tommy Boy. So very different. VHS is going through my household then, very different. I love it. And cats, yeah, but Okay, so you saw opening night of 2016 Yeah. You did not perform, though, with Kim, right? Because you were, she's the meter, and you were bomb ballerina,

[3:35] Speaker 2: that's right. And we did not overlap like her. No overlap her last week. So I went into the show with two other amazing women. And so it was myself, Samantha Sturm and Sarah Jenkins, all got to rehearse together, and we went in at the same time as Eloise, Kim and Christine were, like, on their way out. So we literally missed each other by like, a week.

[4:00] Mike Abrams: Oh, wow. So everyone that you've mentioned there, I've the Kim is the only one I have not recorded with everyone of that list, everyone else has has an episode. So, oh my, it's been fun to talk to a lot of the 2016 cast, just because it's it was my introduction to the show. Was that production and seeing it and then seeing it a year later. So I very likely saw you in the production, because I saw it a year later. But that was, that was my first cats introduction, of anything, I mean, VHS, wow. There was no I knew it, just as everyone knows, because it's been a lot of punchline and jokes, but I knew nothing about it, and I had very similar of a wow. This looks really hard. This is crazy. This is impressive. What's happening, type of response, and the first time I saw it, which was two days, I think, before you did, because I saw the second to last preview and and then had a similar thing, but then I walked away, because I'm not trying to perform. But you did? You have a moment where you're watching this going i i should be up there with Tim, side by side. I,

[5:00] Speaker 2: you know, I really did not. I did not have that sense. I truly was, like, I had so much fun as a spectator, and that's usually not the case. Usually, as a performer, you're like, piecing yourself into a show. I truly just had so much enjoyment, and, like, just loved that these people were working their butts off for me.

[5:23] Mike Abrams: So as someone who really didn't know the show as much, and you've got your friend up there, you're watching, you obviously know how this works. What goes into it, what it takes to the skill to do that, how much story did you try to piece together in viewing?

[5:38] Speaker 2: I'm trying to think, I mean, I definitely was really touched by it. I was really moved by, immediately, by Grizabella, just the way she was such an outcast. And quite frankly, I honestly immediately thought of people who struggle with homelessness in New York. It's so prevalent, and just how, as a society, people are like, Oh, they smell. I don't want to be next to them. I am too busy. I don't want to stop. I really, that was, like, the strongest sense, and it really broke my heart. And so at the end, when they start coming around, I was deeply, deeply moved by that. So that was the biggest thing that I picked up on.

[6:24] Mike Abrams: That's such an interesting parallel I had not really heard or thought as much about. And it is so true of like that, you know, the the tribe kind of almost in, you know, like the city, almost deflecting, and not wanting them there, and then having that turnaround point. This is not good for my last question, where I'm going to try to convince you not to pick Grizabella, but, okay, I want to, but I want to go back to this, this moment, because you're watching it, you're having this. I mean, you're obviously seeing one of your good friends. You're sitting there next to her husband. Yes, is there as you now get to this where the process of like, auditioning for the show, are you calling her and being like, hey, yes, threat me for this. Like, I'm gonna be I need the other half of these steps. I

[7:05] Speaker 2: sure did. When I got the audition appointment, I was like, Yeah, this would be a blast to, like, pretend to be a cat at this audition. Let's do it. And so I called or texted Kim. I was like, I'm gonna go for this. Like, how much cats do you give at the audition, like, is it a subtle hint? Is it all, all in, you know, I just put like, because she, you know, she grew up just loving the musical. She had done it at a regional theater, and that sort of thing. So, yeah, it was super helpful. I actually saw the show twice. So I saw it opening night, and then I loved it so much that I saw it again.

[7:41] Mike Abrams: I love that question, how much cat do you give? Do you go full cat in the audition or

[7:44] Speaker 2: not, honestly, though. So yeah, it was really fun to chat with her about it and be like, Okay, I'm gonna go in for the show that you're currently in. And it was a special to share that. Yeah.

[7:56] Mike Abrams: Okay, so now you you get cast. You said you joined with Sarah and Samantha, that's right. It's kind of great too, because Samantha and you are going to be doing a lot together, right? We're gonna be almost together at all times. So what was told to you in terms of the the the story, the backstory, all this information you have to take that you were given to kind of create with Samantha, especially on your own, versus like, what Tim and Christine did, or like how other people have been playing it, because you are joining partway through, and it's one of those things that's just like, the next day you're both probably on, and then the other two are leaving. It's

[8:31] Speaker 2: wild. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was a really special it's like, the best scenario I could have hoped for, for a replacement scenario, to be able to rehearse with two other people, and there were, there were a handful of others that were also rehearsing, like, kind of adjacent to us, but I feel like, yeah, it was great to have, you know Sam to and she had done the show, so it was nice to kind of paint off of her and kind of take her lead A little bit. And so much of that is like a sisterhood on the stage. So I think it was really special that we got to rehearse together honestly. And, you know, we were, it was very much we didn't have as much maybe play time as the original cast did, as far as, like exploring their Feline, their inner Feline, you know, because we're, we're learning, okay, when you cross here you go between this person and this person. So it was a little more planned out, I guess I'll say, but yeah, we were told, you know about our characters, and given, you know, the adjectives for them, and just kind of a tiny, just a hint of backstory, but a lot of it was for us to just kind of play with.

[9:44] Mike Abrams: Okay, so that's my favorite part of this. This show is, what did you like there's obviously, you're given your three words, you're given a little bit, but you obviously had to create more, and you have to come up with more. So did you. Write a full back story for your bomb belly arena. I did. I

[10:03] Speaker 2: mean, I, you know, using, I think that some of the adjectives were generous, voluptuous and Frank were the adjectives I was given. And so I really played on the Frank and just how, like, blunt and straightforward she was. And really kind of went into, kind of played with, like, the backstory with her, she and Tugger, and then Macavity as well, and just that she's, like a seasoned bomb is a seasoned cat. Um, she's seen a lot, but she didn't let maybe hardships or any kind of abuse that mcavity gave her, like, absolutely destroy her, like, it maybe did some others. And kind of like looking at Macavity, like, what a big bully. Like, you're just a big bully baby. Like, come on, you know, whereas it really caused trauma for others like Demeter and, yeah. So I feel like if anybody were to confront Macavity, maybe bomb would have at one point, you know, but I think there's still a healthy amount of fear, just because you don't want to mess with somebody who's like, you know, unstable, like him, and then broken every human law, right? Exactly like, yeah, we, we don't need to confront that, yeah. And then yeah, just thinking through, like, Grizabella, like what her backstory must have been, and feeling a connection to her in that way, because her, you know, the cards she was handed were, you know, different from what bomb was handed. And I think there's like a hint of empathy, but I don't want to show bomb. I didn't feel like mom wanted to show the other cats that she was showing empathy towards Grizz too early on. Okay,

[11:46] Mike Abrams: how I want to ask about a few particular relationships. So, like, is Grizz? How did you view Grizz? Mom, friend, peer, potential path you could have gone down. Like, how did you think through those things I

[12:02] Speaker 2: did, I feel like I chose to look at Grizz as a warning, okay, yeah, not letting myself go down the dark path. And so I think, in a way, I was grateful for Grizz because, like, man, she learned the hard lessons that maybe I didn't have to

[12:21] Mike Abrams: Okay, what about the other here's the other one that I have thrown out a lot, and I still don't get good answers for, is the relationship with the meter. And there's a school of thought that thinks you're sisters, there's a school of thought that thinks you're best friends, and there's a school of thought that thinks you're lovers.

[12:38] Speaker 2: Oh, I haven't heard all of those. Definitely. I never thought of us as sisters, but I think I thought it was sister Lee that, yeah, I think there's, you know, some shared experience, but bomb was able to mentally handle the things they experienced, maybe with Macavity. I even think there was some, you know, maybe a scenario where, like, the two of them were with him together. And, you know, when things took a turn south, like, I feel like bomb definitely took Demeter under her wing, so to speak. So I think there's like a protectiveness, yeah, for sure, I've always,

[13:29] Mike Abrams: I've never thought it was like true sisters, as in, like relative sisters. It almost felt in the this is, I guess, probably very American college version, but it felt like almost a sorority sister or something, where it's like they're, they had this, this moment together, where they bonded and went through this thing, and they're, they're really relatives, but not in the blood sense, and went through that whole process together. So that's how I always felt. But there's a, there's a group that thinks that they're lovers, is also a fascinating kind of piece. Listen, I

[14:00] Speaker 2: mean, it definitely that could definitely be a possibility. I just didn't, my brain didn't think of it that way, but definitely that protective piece. Yeah, that's so fun that I love all the different theories. It's like, you can really fill in so many of the blanks with cats.

[14:15] Mike Abrams: There's endless and I think that's what has made this so fun, is what you all thought about on stage, because you can do a lot of versions. You could do a night where you your Macavity is a little bit more sexual and flirty together and totally give off that vibe. And then you can do tomorrow where it's very sisterly, exactly, and it would be the same show, but a twist and turn that you can do, because it's not spoken, and that's what I think is really cool about the show in general. Yes, yeah, I agree. Who? Who are the other relationships that you like formed and had to play heavily off of every night that were maybe less spoken like maybe the less traditional. There's obviously the Tugger and the demeanor, the Grizabella, the Macavity, definitely the other one. That you got to have some fun with that maybe weren't the immediately told to you

[15:03] Speaker 2: who are the other ones? Definitely, everybody has a strong relationship with Deuteronomy. Just, you know, I think he represents a lot of different things to all the cat, I don't know, for some reason I felt something with, most awfully is too on stage, like, something about the magical cat. It's like, I don't know, it's kind of secretive and kind of sexual in a way, I'm not sure. I mean it all like cats are so sensual. So I think anything can be sexualized. But, yeah, most awfully like, kind of elusive, but brotherly. And, I mean, yeah, we all, you know, lean on him to kind of bring Deuteronomy back. So then it's kind of that, it's like he's solving a problem for us. And, yeah, I'm trying to think about the other female cats. I mean, definitely jelly Lorem and Jenny Annie dots, because we do the fun, we do the fun harmonies and Jenny Annie dot song, yeah, I don't know. So that was fun to, like play off each other for that, like we're the mature cat. Okay, I do these, this boy and sister esque, you know, moment,

[16:13] Mike Abrams: yeah, we're gonna take a quick break, and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. Okay, I want to pivot to some stories, because I know what I'm fascinated to hear is, I know you have at least one wild story. So we're going to kick off with that one that I'm going to ask you about, but then I'd love to hear some memorable moments from being in this production. So the first one is, I will, I will share this link, but you shared a story with me about how you had an interaction with a service dog in the crowd. So what happened?

[16:44] Speaker 2: Yes, what had happened was we, we enter. Our first entrance is through the audience. For most of the cats, not everyone, but like half the cast enters through the audience. And so, you know, we're in the lobby. After all the guests have see it been seated, we start to creep our way up the stairs, and then I make my entrance in the house, left aisle, and I'm standing at the back, and I'm like, What is this? Is I was like, looking at the aisle, and I was like, is that somebody's bag? Is that a purse? And usually the aisles are completely clear because the ushers know to clear it and stuff. I'm like, what is that? I'm like, No, it's moving. Okay. Well, whatever. I gotta go, so here I go. So it's a tiny Pomeranian dog. It's a tiny Pomeranian service dog, which I've never seen in my life. And I'm like, Oh, this is interesting. Okay, it's as as I'm walking up behind it. It starts to walk out in front of me. It's on the leash, but still the owner isn't doing anything about it. It it starts to walk in front of me, and I'm like, oh my goodness, what do I do? And he's like, right in the middle of the aisle, and I just gently nudge him with my little foot, and then carry on. And I believe one of the ushers said that he kind of trotted after me a little bit. And that's basically all that happened. It wasn't super dramatic. It just was, like, a funny moment. And then I went on with my show, and I was like, Oh, that was funny. Like, a little Pomeranian got in my way. Like, What a cutie he wanted to be in the show, like, so then I get a call, I guess, from the PR team, like, the next day, and they're, they're like, I heard there was an incident at the theater last night, and I was like, Oh, um, sure, if you want to call it that. And I explain exactly what happened, like, just like I did to you. And then I think that day, the Page Six article came out with this, like, terrifying image of a dog snarling, and it's like, dog chases actress, you know, off the stage or something. And that was like, wow, that's one way to twist it. I am so grateful they did not twist it the other way and say, actor kicks dog or something like, of that nature. Like they totally could have taken it that way. And yeah. And so then it totally spun out of control. And so the Page Six article came out, and then it was on, wait, wait, don't tell me the next week as, like, a question of, like, which, which cat's character was chased down the aisle on Broadway last week by a dog. And then it was on, I think Jimmy Fallon joked about it on his show. Like, did you hear that one of the Broadway cats actors got chased off the stage. It truly blew up. So, like, for a week, people from all over the country were, were, you know, messaging me, and they're like, oh my gosh, are you okay? And I was like, Guys, I'm I'm great,

[19:35] Mike Abrams: all for like, a 10 pound dog. Yes, barely, barely walking three feet down the aisle, yeah. During green is this during green eyes? This is at the very top of the show. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so this is a part where you're scaring children and jumping out at people anyways, and you're just trying to get to the stage in a tiny little service dog comes a little bit after you and everyone. It turned into this, like, attack. Yes,

[19:59] Speaker 2: exactly. I. Think one of the articles, or something somebody said was like it chased it got on the stage and chased her, and totally out of control. But yes, it was a great it was a good laugh, and I

[20:12] Mike Abrams: should have invited the dog back for your one scene that you do, you actually did your production. Do the scene where you turn into dogs, or is that only in the older VHS

[20:22] Speaker 2: version? Yeah, the peaks and follicles, I did not get to dress up or put anything on my head, okay? Yeah,

[20:29] Mike Abrams: could have had the dog there for that, had a cameo and been ready to get fit right in. So that's a pretty tough moment to top. But what were some other memorable like scenarios or things that like, really stick out from your production, that you just will never forget.

[20:51] Speaker 2: I do remember I had like, a sinus infection. It was like right around Thanksgiving, and so I'm constantly managing all the, you know, fluids that come with a sinus infection, and I'm during Macavity, Demeter sings first and then bomb, and bomb sits on the tire for like, a whole verse and a half, or, you know, however long it is. And I'm like, prepping, just, you know, resting until I have to stand up and sing, and this little drip starts going down the back of my throat, and I need to cough so bad. But I didn't. I was like, I don't know if they clicked my mic on yet. Like, I don't want to take away from Sam, you know, her verse right here. Like, oh my gosh. What do I do? And I try. I'm trying to, like, clear my throat, and literally, my eye starts watering, and like, a tear comes down my face. And then finally I'm able to, like, like, get it down, literally, in the nick of time before I have to stand up and go the cavity is a ginger cat and start. It was just like, a terrifying moment, because I'm like, What if I can't get this down? And I'm just, like, coughing for my first, you know, five words, wow. So, yeah, that's just like, the funny thing about being a performer is you're, you're still dealing with bodily things where, you know, if you're in an office job, it's like you can take a moment and cough, but when you're on a stage, you don't, you don't feel like you can do that. You have to do everything in time. Oh, man, yeah, that was, yeah. Live

[22:29] Mike Abrams: performances is again, your, your world was so different than what most of us live there, who are not performers of to your exactly your point. If I, if I had a science of fiction, I might not even work that day, right? Just, just take the day off. Or, you know, or in this you can, we can mute our microphones and cut this out later. Like, there's a lot of ways to handle that, but you're on stage in front of hundreds of people, if not more, and you are miked up. You have no idea. You have no control. You can't just, like, cover what you know was it on your head at that point? It's like, in your wig, you can't cover it, right? And you've still got to go and and you're singing and you're dancing and you're performing, it's like a physical, very physical and demanding thing. And, yeah, I mean, you just have to keep going. And that's part of what makes theater so interesting, because it's live and you don't know what you're getting. Absolutely, it's, I think it's what makes it also wild to me that this is a profession,

[23:24] Speaker 2: I feel like I think it was. Maybe I can't even remember if I saw it happen, or if, like, people talked about it after the fact, but I think somebody had, I don't know, or if this is a story that was told to me. Anyways, I heard that somebody on the front row had their phone lit up and was on their phone, and during the there's like, a quick break during a memory, and she, like, goes to the front and swats at the phone and then backs up. And then,

[24:00] Speaker 2: just like, make me so happy that as a cat, you're allowed to do that, because it's in character. And, you know,

[24:07] Mike Abrams: yeah, it's like a cat shoving something off the table, like, you can, you can get away with that. I think Tyler, like the the Tugger character, can get away with a lot of stuff, and always gets have some fun, yes, with that. So there's, that's there. But I'd never heard that story with a Grizz, and that is, it

[24:24] Speaker 2: was, yeah. It was either Mamie or, yeah, another Grizz. I wish somebody could corroborate the story. Well, if

[24:31] Mike Abrams: you, if you know, I know a lot of people listen. Or we can go to our, our Encyclopedia of cats, right? Production of Claire. Claire camp just knows everything. Oh, yeah. So we can ask, always ask Claire if she remembers. She would not if there's anything cats related. Claire knows. Yeah, okay, that's, that is. Now I wish, I wish I was there for that performance, because I'm, I'm the type of person that I don't I, I'm a big believer of if you, if you have something that important that you need to be on your phone or checking you. Shouldn't be at the show. And right? Should be like, we should be as society, okay to turn ourselves off for two and a half hours and and you get an intermission that, like, I mute everything, I turn everything off, I do not disturb whatever it takes. Because nothing should be that important. And if it is, then why are you there, right? And so I'm all for that. And I'm just like, if it's it's such a bad it's happening a ton right now, and it's getting really frustrating and annoying. And I saw a show recently, and someone in front of me was pulling out their phone, and I'm like, they're texting like, they're just texting somebody back. Just can't wait 30 minutes.

[25:37] Speaker 2: It's insane. And you really the actors can see everything because it's so pitch black in the audience, it's like, yeah, if they're high up in the balcony, you're like, Oh, somebody's on their phone in the balcony. No lie,

[25:47] Mike Abrams: yeah. I find it so disrespectful and just not needed, and it's become such a norm, and I am hoping people can respect the theater more, but I love that somebody got the opportunity as because I like the shows that have some kind of, like, fun where they like, I saw Titanic recently, and someone walked in very, very drunk. Group of people walked in late, and the whoever was doing their part, like, I think the the Selene stopped and said, welcome, and like, kind of called them out. And I'm like, Oh, they're late. But then they were being really obnoxious most of the show, and kept calling them out because they have that freedom with some of the improv. And I love that. Whoever did that took a little bit of that freedom of, I'm a cat. I'm gonna get away with just hitting let's, let's lean into that.

[26:33] Speaker 2: Oh man, yeah, that's the thing you could get away with a lot on stage.

[26:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah, did you how much liberty did you take as a, you know, in a show like this, where you have a little bit more freedom, because there's just not a ton of dialog, there's not a ton, it's like, there's the dance numbers that you can't really mess with, but a lot of the rest you can kind of play around on, definitely.

[26:54] Speaker 2: I mean, in the Jellicle Ball, you know, there's just subtle movement when you're just slightly changing positions, you know. But, you know, between sections or that kind of thing, where you can interact with other cats on the side. But yeah, they're definitely, it's so traffic specific, so you have to stay, obviously, within the traffic, but definitely, like playful looks at people. Yeah, anytime you're on the side and the the lights aren't on you, you can definitely, you know, interact with the other actors. So I love that. Okay,

[27:26] Mike Abrams: I want to go to some rapid fire, because I think there's some some fun ones here. So great if you could go on for one night any cat, whether you male, female, you could sing it, can perform it or not. Who would you want to go on for one night as, oh,

[27:39] Speaker 2: that's really tough. It would either be skimble Shanks or Grizabella.

[27:45] Mike Abrams: Okay, two very different so different tracks. Yeah, yeah.

[27:49] Speaker 2: I just think, yeah. I just think either one is fun for so many reasons. Okay,

[27:52] Mike Abrams: you either want to dance the whole time or you want to only be on the stage for 15 minutes. Yes. Okay, what are your Who are your favorite and least favorite characters?

[28:03] Speaker 2: Ooh, like as me, Mackenzie, least favorite. Oh, baby. Yeah,

[28:08] Mike Abrams: I like it more from that, because I do think it's easy to skew. It might be skewed by playing Bombay arena, that's true, but I'm thinking more of the if you were hanging out with one, or you wanted to you were friends with one, or just one that you really enjoy, and then reverse, which is the one that you're like enough.

[28:30] Speaker 2: I like, I've always loved Tugger. I just think Tugger is hilarious, and just like, doesn't care, and it's so great and just so playful. I'm trying to think of cats that I don't like. I mean, they're all just so playful in real life, I'm not a huge cat person. I'm definitely a dog person. So like I could imagine. I'm trying to think who is like the meanest cat on stage, because maybe that's the one that I don't like, like whoever hissed the most, maybe. But I don't, I don't know who that what would have been, which

[29:05] Mike Abrams: is the one that you if you were personality wise, had you were at a an event, hanging out with, would you be like, All right, I don't. I need a break.

[29:17] Speaker 2: Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I like Mungo Jerry and rumple teaser, like, maybe they'd be too like, mischievous for me. I don't know, like, it's hard to even say that, because, okay, I find all of them pretty endearing. So

[29:35] Mike Abrams: Okay, all right, I'll accept that favorite song from the show.

[29:40] Speaker 2: Oh, man, I do love magical. Mr. Mistoffelees, I just think it's so magical, and memory is great too. Okay, all right,

[29:51] Mike Abrams: here's my fun one. So obviously you had a terrifying interaction with the service dog. Which cat do you think. Would be the best service cat, as in, like, if you were personality wise, hanging out there, which cat would be hired for that role, ideally, not to chase you down the aisle.

[30:13] Speaker 2: Maybe skimble Shanks or who would be I'm trying to think who would be really attentive to their owner. I think there's one answer to this one, really, you have it? Yeah, I think there's one for this. I think because I think they

[30:27] Mike Abrams: already do it in the show monkey strap. I think it's Joey Lorem,

[30:35] Mike Abrams: so true. I think they're already taken care of their service cat for Gus, that's

[30:42] Mike Abrams: was my but now the reverse of that is, which one do you think is the service cat that's gonna chase somebody down the

[30:49] Speaker 2: aisle? Definitely. Tugger. Tugger, yeah,

[30:53] Mike Abrams: Tugger, or Mungo? Jerry rumple tee, yeah. Okay, all right. Million dollar question I've argued at length that I don't think it should be Grizabella. So I want to hear you, Mackenzie, are you picking? Grizz and why? And if not, who are you picking?

[31:08] Speaker 2: I was thinking through this, and I was like, the, really, the only other cat that I think is, like, deserving, and, you know, at that point, would be Gus, the theater cat. And I just love Gus so much. And it's so fun to watch Gus like, come to life during the show, as he's like, Yeah, reminiscing, and then he's like, and now I shall show you, you know, but Grizz is just, it's just such a beautiful, like, redemptive arc, and that's why I was so deeply touched, as I mentioned, watching the show that, like all the all the cats come around, and it's kind of like they're all apologizing, yeah, I just see, I just see such a connection with, like our society today, even with somebody who we deem is untouchable and and once we kind of change our thinking, and we're Like, Oh no, this person is just as worthy of love and respect and care. That's why I just think it's like, just, yeah, I'm sorry. I yeah, I really

[32:11] Mike Abrams: okay. So let me ask you my follow up question, because I do think the societal question is an interesting way to think about it. But why immediately, then murder her. Like, why can't she have a year with the family?

[32:24] Speaker 2: That's so funny. I don't know it's so like, the heavy side layer, I feel like this is such a like, meta concept, because it's like a new life, like she gets to have a new life and and like, the pain of this or the pain of this season, or this life, this cat life, if you want to call it that, um, it's like she's enter, she's exiting that season and entering a new season of like, hey, this next season, let's no trauma, no Um, abuse. Like, hopefully it's like a beautiful, new, redemptive life. Your my brain, your

[33:04] Mike Abrams: view, is that the nine lives are linear, and this is now like it's not starting over. It's not like a it goes through a full life and then is reborn. And it goes through a full life like she's just starting a Knicks. That's like Season Two or season four or five, whatever number she's

[33:23] Speaker 2: on, yeah, kind of, I, yeah. I kind of go back and forth on that, yeah. It's, it's interesting to think about. I think you can, you could go a lot of different ways, but I think it's linear, a little more linear, or I want, in my brain, I like for things to be linear.

[33:39] Mike Abrams: Well, there's, there's no right answer because we only have one ball. There's no extra Well, I guess there's a right answer, because it's crazy. Bell is sacrificed every night for 40 plus years. Yeah, but, but I'm slowly trying to change that. But I do think, like, where it gets to me interesting is I like the story. I like the redemption. I think your society piece is exactly right, which is we need to embrace and accept her back. But then I don't where I go. The next step is, why are we? Why is that the reward? Like, why is this the next step, when she could spend the year with her family, and then I go into is next year? If redemption is the piece, is there another banished cat that's coming back next year? Is this happening every year? Or does the criteria change every year? Like, who was banished last year? And do you have a redemption story? Or is it just a different criteria every

[34:29] Speaker 2: right like you're saying, Did they come back as a new baby cat and now they get to be part of the family?

[34:35] Mike Abrams: Or is there one that we don't even know about that's going to come back next year because they were banished from years before, too, like it's it becomes a question of, since you're only given one view into this world, is that store? Is it a teaching a lesson every year? Is it teaching a redemption lesson every year? And I think that that is, as Old Deuteronomy has done this many times, which opens up very well. Bizarre serial killer story for him, anyways, but as he's done this over the years, what is his criteria? Because I kind of always view this as if there's cats too, how do you go? Or even if Grizabella maybe something happened and doesn't have that, like, was he gonna pick Gus, right? And if he picked Gus, which I think a lot of people have said that his choice was Gus until she came back. Then that's two very different criteria, right? For why you'd pick Gus versus her, and so that's where it's like, is he all knowing and knew she was coming back? If not, was he picking Gus? It's a lot of open ended questions

[35:39] Mike Abrams: Did your cast think about this at all.

[35:42] Speaker 2: Well, I wasn't part of the original rehearsal process, which I think was a little bit longer than our as replacements going into the show. Yeah, but yeah. So there weren't tons of discussions around this. But I definitely, I definitely thought, pictured it in different ways. I also kind of had imagery around it about like, you know, when somebody in our life passes away, a lot of times relationships with family members, distant family members that we've maybe lost touch with or had falling outs with, and then near the end of their life, a lot of times you'll see people like longing for that reconciliation piece. So it's almost like, I sometimes would think about it as, like, Grizabella is like, nearing the end of her life, and this is, she got to have that reconciliation moment,

[36:32] Mike Abrams: yes. So that's interesting is, if that she's not going to make it next year, so she won't even finish the next year. So that's why she writes Yes. And that's very different. I think that that's then becomes an interesting because question of, does Gus even make it next year? And he's had that moment, and then, how do you make that choice between the two? And Why could they both go, right?

[36:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, why can't they both go? I like that. There's,

[36:54] Mike Abrams: yeah, there's so many unwritten rules here that were written by one person very likely or not thought about at all? Right? Because I don't think this question was thought about nearly in depth as I have tried to bring it to the forefront.

[37:08] Speaker 2: Well, I love that you've explored every facet of it. That's that's

[37:12] Mike Abrams: what we're here for. Collect stories like your page six story, and hear the true background of that, and also understand all the relationships, and then debate if I can get, although you're pushing Grizz numbers back up, but I'm slowly getting Gus to being close to 5050, really? Wow. Okay, yeah, he's slightly behind. Still. It's kind of gone. It's the two of them. And then there's, like, a few that pop in every once in a while. But it's, it's pretty clearly of almost a 5050, race with grizzabel still above, wow, she's not 50% of the votes Overall, though, which is my pride of that I've either slowly influenced people to pick her less, or she should have never been picked

[37:56] Speaker 2: to begin with. Just depends how you frame it. That's right,

[38:01] Mike Abrams: that's what we've been here for. Well, what else have I not asked you about cats that we should end with here? Man,

[38:10] Speaker 2: it really is a magical show. It was, you know, it was my Broadway debut, and then, like, a year or two later, I actually got to make my TV debut as a cat in an episode of Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. And that was hilarious to revisit it, because, yeah, in the Broadway company, I was like, you know, bomb has this beautiful, sexy, like, red costume. And then in the episode with Kimmy Schmidt, it's like the most hodgepodge outfit I'm wearing, like a vest and a hat, and the makeup is just like, you know, not super flattering, but it was a really fun experience. And, you know, a hoot to film and revisit. You know,

[38:48] Mike Abrams: that's so fun. I, uh, yeah, that episode is, was, as I started doing, this is one of the many where I'm like, wow, cats, like, really dug in. There's, like, a couple friends episodes. There's a Family Guy episode, but that Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt one is, is very, very well done. Yes,

[39:04] Speaker 2: yeah, they did a great job with it. That's so fun. So, you know, can't get away from the cats, even though, you know, I'm not the biggest real life cat fan, but

[39:16] Mike Abrams: yeah, well, is there a world where you try to revisit this later on? Because that's, I think the fun part of cats is you can do this over years with all the different characters. Absolutely.

[39:26] Speaker 2: Yeah, I would 100% want to play Grizz for sure. Yeah. Okay,

[39:32] Mike Abrams: yeah. Well, I will. I hope you get to play Grizz in a production that I don't influence, and you get to go up tire every day, and not the version that I want to do. But that is, yeah, that's, I hope that's part of your future. Thanks. I hope it's your, your own memory. You get some come back and get to do it. Yeah, exactly

[39:48] Speaker 2: all. Well, this was so fun to revisit and chat through all the different, you know, potential avenues that things could go, yeah?

[39:56] Mike Abrams: Well, thank you for coming on. It's been. So fun. Yes, thank you, Mike, thank you, and thanks everyone for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died. The podcast, break down the cat sash feed to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or any osis podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, threads and tick tock at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat died.com.