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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia ARIBO, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpn.fm, to discover more. There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the wrong one died. I'm the wrong one died. Welcome to

[0:28] Mike Abrams: the wrong cat died. The podcast breakdown, the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. I'm excited because today we get to talk to someone who has a slightly different perspective of the show. She was in charge of hair and wigs on the US national tour, four of cats. So welcome Monday Gove, and thank you for joining

[0:47] Mike Abrams: I am excited to have you because I have not talked to anybody who's worked on this particular aspect of the show. So we're going to get into that in particular but I want to start with your history of cats. So when was the first time you were actually exposed to it? Because you went on this kind of first bus and truck tour that was before the 1998 movie. You know, before a lot of like it was on Broadway, but it only had a few years of history at that point. So when was your first exposure to it?

[1:16] Speaker 2: My first exposure was when I got hired, or was potentially hired to do the tour. And I hadn't seen the show, I hadn't worked on the show, but I had to go and check it out so that I could be approved, that I could work on it. So I went to New York and saw the Broadway production and met my supervisor who was going to sort of approve my employment on the show. So I hadn't seen cats. I hadn't really listened to cats. I didn't really why wasn't that involved in it at all. So that was my first, you know, introduction to it.

[1:59] Mike Abrams: Wow. So you have to basically get approved. So there's no like, you hadn't you had to go and learn it for the first time, see it, understand what was happening, and at that point, you didn't really know much about it at all. So what was your first reaction seeing it? Were you only looking at the like, wig and hair of this is a job production, or were you kind of watching it as a fan and audience member as well.

[2:21] Speaker 2: I guess it was kind of both. I think what happened was I went to New York to see the show, and then, like, I think I went to it and saw a matinee. And so when I watched it, I was really it was, it's kind of a lot to take in, because it was nothing like nothing I had really seen. And then I also was looking at it from the hare perspective, because I had had some experience doing other tours before that, but nothing like that. So I saw the show kind of as an audience member. And then after the first matinee was over, I had to go backstage and meet the supervisor, who was the one who sort of auditioned me to see if I was capable of doing the show. And I had a thing where my husband was at the time, my first husband was the already hired as an assistant electrician on the show, and I was, sort of, they wanted to hire me because they like to keep people together. And so Leon, the guy who was my supervisor in New York, and he kind of supervised all the cats companies like, and he worked on the New York show. And so he kind of was like, Oh no, I've got to hire this person. I don't even know if she can do the job. I don't know her. I don't know anything about it. So I went and met him backstage, and then he sort of wanted to audition me, so I had to sort of jump in and start working with the cast, and so he could see if I knew how to do the do handle wigs and handle quick changes and all that stuff. And so I did. I did really well, apparently, because he he gave me the job. But it was really nerve wracking for me, because here I am backstage on Broadway at cats, and I'm being put on the spot with actors I'd never seen, wigs, I'd never seen and so I just, I guess I did okay, because he hired me.

[4:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's it's such an interesting piece, because the show is requires such incredible the costumes and wigs and everything that kind of tells part of the story. On top of they have to be the job has to be really hard, because they're moving and dancing and going crazy so much that they have to make sure it does not get out of place or go anywhere. So I'd love to hear, I mean, this show obviously had been going on at that point, so it wasn't brand new. But how much did you get to kind of influence a little bit. Of here is this character's wig and hair, and this is how this adds to their personality, or is it more of this is what's given to you, because this is what is been been used, and what the cast is like expecting. How does that like go back and forth? How much do you get to have some creative moments into this, versus how much is just kind of told to you, and then you're just executing well, I

[5:23] Speaker 2: think when you're doing a show like cats, where there are lots of companies, you do have to sort of adhere to a certain design, but you do have some creative ability with each actor, and so I like, that's what I liked doing that's why I like doing wigs, because it's a little bit more creative than doing costumes, because you do have to sort of finesse things to meet that characters you know their appearance or their the way they want to portray it. And so the wigs actually are very tied to the makeup in cats, and all the different companies have different people who oversee that, and in, whether it's a hair person or someone who came in to sort of originally set the designs, they're all working off of the original sketches, but you still have some leeway. And the interesting thing with cats is that the actors eventually do their own makeup, and they do all the, you know, all the cat makeup that, but it has to sort of go into the wig. The way the wigs are designed is that they're different colors and different stripes that sort of go up into the hair. And so as each actor learns their makeup, they eventually have to, they have to blend completely together, and it takes a while for that to happen. So as a hair person, you can sort of work with that character and that actor. Some people are really great at doing their makeup, and some people are a little more challenged. It's not always. It doesn't always go the way you want it to, so, but it's still really creative and really fun. And you know, certain like certain characters, you have a little more leeway to change things or work with it. But cats are not those wigs are made out of yak hair, so they're very stiff and coarse. And, you know, you kind of put the ear, make the little ears go to the point, go to a point with mustache wax. And you you know, there's really only so much you can do with that.

[7:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's such an interesting thing because it's so integral to the part of the show, but it's also something that had been around for a little while. So there is this kind of, like, mix and match of I love hearing that. Like, how do you blend the makeup into how do you think about it? From that standpoint, I want to hear a little bit about what were any of the horror stories or any of the challenges? Like, obviously, did you ever have experiences where, you know, everything looks right, feels right, and then they go and all of a sudden, wood goes flying, or, you know, one place, something happened on tour, like, what are those memorable moments you have from from that tour? Gosh,

[8:13] Speaker 2: you know, I did it for two years, so I don't have, you know, there's so many things that happen over that time. You know, where somebody will get injured in the middle of the show, and then you've got to go and take everything off that person. And mostly it's their microphone that has to come off, because all the under cities have their own wig. You never take a wig off of one person and put it on another person. So there's a scramble sometimes to get people on if somebody gets injured, or sometimes, you know, if someone gets sick and they can't do the, you know, the second act, or whatever. I'm trying to think, I don't have horror stories per se, of that show other than that type of thing.

[9:01] Mike Abrams: I'm always interested in the kind of the fun, memorable moments of tour. I think part of what this show is has kind of morphed into, is being able to capture some of the history. And I think some of that is like when you're on for two years, going city to city, bus by bus, sometimes, you know, split weeks and multiple shows in a, you know, multiple cities in a week there nothing's gonna be perfect. That's the fun of live theater. And so I'm like, kind of thinking through of like in the world is, did Grizzlies hair ever get stuck in the tire or in the swing? Or did you ever have these like moments where that type of stuff happened, where you had to kind of on the fly fix stuff? Yeah, there really

[9:37] Speaker 2: isn't that much with cats, because the wigs are very simple in a way, and when you're hired to do that kind of when you hired to do a Broadway show, one of the things you have to learn and already know is how to pin a wig on so that it will not come off, especially on heavy dance shows, because that's something that not only. Makes the show look really bad if that were to happen, but it's really distracting for the performer to feel like their wig is loose or whatever. But these wigs are so lightweight and they're so they're made exactly to each actor's head. They're designed specifically for that actor. So it really is not a thing so much that the wigs get caught in anything that they come off. So that isn't usually much of an event in the show. I think it's more trying to think of, you know, there are a lot of times during cats where headdresses get put on over top of the wig, and then they get taken off during the show, and so then you have to sort of fix the wig back up again, and ears get plastered down, or things like that happen. But honestly, I don't really remember any major calamity happening. Not to say that there wasn't one, because there probably was. But that doesn't stick out for me, like other shows where where wigs are long, or there's like a whole other world of wigs where a lot of things can happen, but in cats, not so much. We're

[11:07] Mike Abrams: gonna take a quick break and then we back for more of the wrong cat died. I wanna pivot a little bit, because I do think about the lot of the show's been about personality types and the characters and the backstories as someone who kind of had to put together through these sketches, these wigs to help build some of that, whose hair or wig really did you think added to their character? In terms of, like, this is such a big part of them. I have a couple that kind of stand out to me. But I'm curious, as with your two years experience on the show, which were the ones that, as you were putting it together, you're like, This is gonna help this character come to life even more, right,

[11:47] Speaker 2: right? Um, well, I would say Grizabella certainly, because she's her wig is so distressed and kind of, you know, really different than what an actor would look like, bedraggled and worn down and well, Macavity, of course, because that wig is all huge and big and spiky and kind of crazy, and it always has to be put on really fast backstage. So it kind of as an instant transformation and the bomb ballerina and Demeter, both those wigs, I think, are really effectual in that way, in terms of when you see the actor and then you see the performer, like bomb ball, Tugger, Oh, Right. Tugger, yes. Oh my gosh, that wig, huge, big, huge wig. Yeah, and always got, got very worn and very because that's a really, that guy's a really active performer. So it gets really worn and damp, and then it has that big stand up collar, which kind of hits all into the back of it. So that's a pretty intense wig. Yeah.

[13:01] Mike Abrams: What about some of the ones that are extremely heavy dance? Did you have to think through, like, I always think about the, I don't know if they did this in your production, because I'm more familiar with the newer uh choreography, but the Mungo general teaser, doing the flips and stuff. Like, did you ever have to think through certain moments of the show where it's like, if this wig is not this way, it might get in their face, or in their, you know, in somebody else's face. Like, is that ever thought about, or is this just something that's so well curated at this point that it's more about the execution and the creativity that you get?

[13:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, that's in cats. That is not a thing, because the wigs, like I said, they're so lightweight and they're they're put on so well that the actor should never think about the wig, and it should never get in the way. What

[13:52] Mike Abrams: about compared to other shows? So I know that you've, you know this isn't the only show you've worked on. How did cats compare to some of these others in terms of challenges and fun and differences, oh

[14:03] Speaker 2: yeah, that's why I think cats is was so fun, honestly, because there you didn't have to worry about that so much, you know, all of the technical parts of the hair, you know, yeah, because I, When I left cats, I did, I did another Well, I did Starlight Express after cats, and that was much more dramatic. Hair wise, you know, lots of technical stuff, lots of detail, lots of heavier wigs. And of course, everybody's roller skating, so things have to be really, really secure. And then I went on to do other shows, and then I ended up doing Phantom, which is, has, you know, so many wigs and so much hair and so much room for trouble, so cats. That's part of the reason why I think it was such a dream job, and it was so fun. One, aside from how all the people who were on that tour were so amazing, the actual work was really not that difficult in that way. Did

[15:12] Mike Abrams: you notice, I know you mentioned two other Android Webber shows. Did you notice any similarities across the three shows, in terms of the way, especially in your world, was designed,

[15:24] Speaker 2: oh, yeah, totally, very similar stuff, you know, makeup that goes into wigs and and designs that are kind of fantastical and fun, um, and just the idea that it's their ensemble shows, not so much Phantom, really, well it is too. But like cats and Starlight are both ensemble shows, like they're not star shows, so it kind of makes the show all there isn't that hierarchical way of dealing with the cast. It's just like everybody's there, everybody's doing the job, and that makes it really fun and kind of really easy, you know?

[16:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, that's so true. I mean the ensemble shows and I mean Starlight feels like cats with with roller skates, yeah, very similar, yeah, very similar plot and and concept, but from your perspective, it's very different. And then you think about Phantom, again, very different a lot more. They have a lot more in their costumes, just bigger things, versus cats. It's like the cat hair, and that's mostly it, yeah,

[16:31] Speaker 2: yeah. Phantom has, you know, lots all different kinds of wigs. And like the, you know, Christine's hair is all, you know, down to her waist and gets caught and everything, and you know, they're just, there's so much more to deal with on that, on that type of show.

[16:51] Mike Abrams: Yeah, Okay, I gotta, I love asking this for anybody that went on tour, but I want to hear your favorite tour stops, like city wise, or just location, maybe for whatever reason, whether it was you love the city or you love the theater or is easy to work in. And then I also love to hear Lee's favorite. So over those two years, let's do, let's, let's stick it to the cats. Two years, okay, what were your favorite and least favorite stops on tour, and why?

[17:16] Speaker 2: Okay, well, I do remember one year, we did 117 cities in a year. I remember because I wrote down every single city, you know, split weeks, and we so I think, Gosh, my favorite cities would be a toss up between San Francisco and Hawaii, because we got to go to Hawaii for two weeks. And, wow. So on one hand, it's harder because it's humid, which is affects hair a lot, but we got to do all kinds of fun stuff while we were there, you know, because it's Hawaii, so it was really like a vacation, but work too and just fun. And honestly, I don't even know how they got all that stuff over there. When you think about it, it must have been mind boggling to do, but we did. We had a lot of fun there. And we just did all kinds of stuff during the day, and then we would do the show at night. So that was great. And San Francisco, I just always love, because we always got to stay there longer. And I love the weather,

[18:19] Mike Abrams: yeah. What about, I think it's love hearing that, because you picked fun cities. And then also it seems like places you were there for longer, whereas on a tour where you did you said 170 plus cities two weeks, seems like an eternity when you're doing like two days in some other places. I'm sure that added that's a big part of it, yeah. What about least favorite? I always love to ask, what part of the country did you and it could be for other reasons. It doesn't have to be the city. It could be the theater was really tough, or humidity made the job harder. But did you have any place that stood out as a challenge? Hmm,

[18:51] Speaker 2: it's really hard to remember, because I was on tour for like, a decade. So yeah, there's so many cities that are just like, but I would say probably somewhere in the south, where the weather is really tough, if you're down there in the summer, like Shreveport or Mobile, Alabama, or, you know, somewhere down there where this the theater is really small. It there's, it's really just tricky, and then the climate is difficult. So I don't know that I have one in particular that I not from CATS, from maybe from other shows, but not from cats. I do remember New Orleans as much as it's a great city. We did have all of our, all the a lot of the people on the crew got to carry, got to travel with bikes, which got put on the trucks. And so we had like 15 bikes in there or something, but we couldn't have them at the theater in New Orleans for some reason or in the hotel. So they all got kept on the train. Truck, which was stored outside of the city somewhere, and they all got stolen out of the back of the truck. Wow. Everyone lost all of their bikes, and so we we loved having bikes so we could get around this towns and the cities that we were in, but we lost our bikes all from New Orleans. But New Orleans is a great city, but it had that one negative thing that happened. Yeah,

[20:23] Mike Abrams: there's a lot of those where the moment, what happened to you in that particular time, can shape an experience of a city, whether the city is amazing or not. There's been examples of that over time. It seems like New Orleans has had a few more of the challenging moments on your tour, and then even the tour after, there were some some stories there of pretty consistently. So yeah, I wonder if it's just a memorable city, or if there's something else to that. Yeah, let's do some let's do some cats. Rapid fire. So if you could perform in cats, which cat would you want to go on as the white cat, Victoria, do the whole dance, do the lift and everything Beautiful,

[21:07] Mike Abrams: who are your favorite and least favorite characters in the show?

[21:11] Speaker 2: Um, well, gosh, that's hard. I would say Tugger is probably one of my favorites. Yeah, fun, funny. I liked that character from the very first time I saw the show, and I liked the actor who played the character. So that character is one of my favorites. And then you're asking my least favorite, yeah, and I'll

[21:37] Mike Abrams: frame it as the which is the family member that annoys you the most you know or like, because they're all they're all fun and part of your, your extended family here, but which is the personality wise, the cat that you would probably get least, along with, Oh

[21:52] Speaker 2: Gosh, gosh, that's a tough one, I guess Macavity, the villain, the villain Gotta go for troublemaker. Just shows up. Dysfunctional, yeah? Love one brother,

[22:03] Mike Abrams: hate the other. Okay, I love it. Favorite song from the show. Oh,

[22:10] Mike Abrams: yeah, I think that's my answer too. Yeah, it does change a lot, but that one's so fun. Yeah? So

[22:16] Speaker 2: burlesque. So love the big brassy sound. I'm married to a trombonist. So you know, if

[22:24] Mike Abrams: one cat character was put in charge of doing your job on tour, which cat would do the best at your job, at running everything from hair and wig behind the scenes? Oh,

[22:37] Speaker 2: wow, uh, probably skimble shanks. That's what I thought, yeah, and he has a vest, so that would, he would have a place to keep the things, you know, the comb and the things that you need,

[22:50] Mike Abrams: uh, attire. I didn't think about attire. I was thinking purely personality. But I love that he's got the he's ready to go with, being able to pull all the stuff out, yeah, wearing so. And it's even more so the case, right?

[23:00] Speaker 2: And his personality, too, is kind of, you know, keeping everything under control. Yeah,

[23:06] Mike Abrams: very on track. Okay, so this is the most important question of this show, but I've argued at length that I don't think Grizabella was supposed to be the Jellicle choice. So I want to hear as someone who got to experience this show from two years, from a different angle. If you were in charge, if you are picking your Jellicle choice, you get to be Old Deuteronomy. Are you picking Grizabella, or are you picking another cat? And why? Well,

[23:32] Speaker 2: to answer that, I will have to answer it from a hair person's perspective, kind of a costume hair perspective. So I think it would be Grizabella, but it, it need, it kind of needs to be finished in that she needs to be able to come back fully, changed, back to her original glamor herself, kind of like the witch and into the woods.

[23:59] Mike Abrams: So I think that's a really interesting question, because the idea of you're saying if she needs to be picked because then she gets to come back as a younger version of herself right away to be with her family, and that's kind of like the redemption art. But I've always wondered, is that actually, what happens? Or does Grizabella become Victor, you know, the next Victoria or the next like, is it a whole different cat that she comes back as because this life is over and it's done?

[24:27] Speaker 2: No, she would come back as herself, because if you look at her costume and her wig and everything, it's all tattered, but yet you can see the remnants of what it once was. She has this really cool fur coat and this black sequined dress. So I'd like to see that revived.

[24:47] Mike Abrams: Okay, so you're because I think, I think something that you're saying is something that the way I think about it, but from a slightly different tweak of it, which is my argument of of recently has been, I think she should spend the year. With the family like that. Coming back to the family will help, kind of bring her back to her younger self, by having that love and embrace of her, of, you know, her missing family. But you're saying kind of the same thing, but just with also being the choice. So I kind of think pick Gus this year, let her come back. She gets to have a little bit of that, you know, she gets to clean up a little bit. She gets to spend time and be loved and have that, but you're saying kind of the same thing, but she gets picked and then she comes immediately back as a new version of herself. Yeah,

[25:29] Speaker 2: because it's more theatrical, it's more like, you know, it's a more glamorous moment. And I, as a hair and costume person, kind of like to see it in that way. But, you know, it could be either way.

[25:43] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I think it's fun. I do. I've always wondered too if, like, maybe how, I guess you could tell me how technically difficult it would be as a costume and wig person. But what if she came back, like, what if you don't end the show with her going up, and then they do that kind of weird song where they kind of talked to you at the end, and instead, she comes back as her new self, and you're almost starting the next year with her. Like, how hard would that be for you all to do off stage? Well,

[26:11] Speaker 2: not hard at all. I mean, no, no. People just live for that. You know, there's just nothing more fun than an insanely fast costume change. Like it is just one of the most fun challenges there is. Or she could go up in the tire and then come back down, totally redone, which would be, yeah, would be really cool too. That means she'd have to get off the tire up there and do the change up in the, you know, the fly space somehow, and then come back down. So that would be cool too. But yeah, you could do a really quick wig change and a really quick costume change and clean her face up a little bit, and that would she be good to go? Yes. And then it could kind of start again, yeah.

[26:54] Mike Abrams: Then you're starting your next year with the full redemption arc of here's now, yeah, what she needed, right? That is interesting. I had never thought about it from that angle where, you know, I always think like the show just ends, you know, it's like the year ends, the ball's over next year. And someone did say a theory that Victoria was last year's choice, which is why she was being brought at and brought back in. And that kind of made me think of, when does that start? How does that go? And so that is an interesting way to have I love having her do it up in the fly of like she goes up, you are gonna, you're gonna stick to the story. She's gonna go up there. We're gonna change quickly, and then we're gonna bring her back down, and then it's gonna be the beginning of

[27:35] Speaker 2: the next year, right? Yeah, I think it's the perfect way. That

[27:39] Mike Abrams: might be the only way I'll accept Grizabella as a Jellicle choice. Yeah,

[27:44] Speaker 2: see, as a hair person, you don't really think about it in that way too much. You know what I mean? When you get hired to do a show, you have to kind of think about the characters and the designs, but you aren't that attached to those types of ideas. You know what I mean? Like, no one's coming around and saying, Now, think this through, think this character through, and think this through, you're just kind of like, No, this is what you look like, and this is what you're gonna do, and the more fun and challenging, the the changes are, the the more fun and challenging the show is.

[28:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's it's so fascinating to hear, and that's why I've loved doing 160 plus episodes of this is I've talked to so many different parts of the show now, talked to production, stage managers and electricians and people doing lighting and sound, but also, you know, hundreds of performers who kind of take a slightly different angle in the way they think about things. And there is that you've got to know some of the story if you're Old Deuteronomy or Isabella or Demeter, you know you have to have these key things that you have to take into the story. And there's some other stuff that's kind of a little bit flexible, and you can have some leeway. But then for you, you don't need to know the through line of the story nearly as much unless it's an integral part of that particular part of your your job, like, if there is the hair supposed to be spiky to tell part of that story, you kind of need to know that, because then it helps you build the wig out and make sure you take some that creativity. But you don't have to think about, does Grizabella, why does she go and does she come back? And where does she go next? Yeah, it's kind of irrelevant in some parts. So I do find that part really interesting, because I hadn't thought about, I mean, I you kind of always hear about Grizabella is supposed to look worn, but you're saying even the hairs, you know, looks even more so worn. And the whole costume is built around that, for that, that theory and that part of it. But I do love how you could train like transition that quickly, because I do know they do a baby Grizz in the newer version, where, essentially it's just an ensemble dancer, but it's the Grizabella doing that in the very opening number. Oh, yeah, we had that

[29:49] Speaker 2: too, but she's not, yeah, she's just in a plane cats. You know, it's not Isabella, right? Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. It's her foundation.

[29:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah? I love it. I usually am very more debating when I get a Grizabella answer. But I bet the idea of ending it differently, I like the idea of not just having it stop at that moment, but take it a step further, yeah, and bring her back in a new give a fun, quick change that you all can live for a new challenge in every city you go to to figure out, how are you going to do that, right? Right? Beginning of cats, too, right?

[30:29] Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. I mean her, her wig is very it's made out of, it's the only one in the show that's made out of human hair. It's, it's kind of a little bit like Mrs. Lovett, in a way, pulled up into these little cat ear buns, yeah, and then fully distressed. So it would be really fun to get to redo that and make it more glamorous.

[30:55] Mike Abrams: That's fun. What is there anything? I didn't ask you that you were like a cat's person should know this about this show from your perspective,

[31:06] Speaker 2: no, I don't know. It's just a show that really to so many people. It really makes no sense at all, but it's really one of the most beautiful shows that you can be involved with because of the artistry in it, and the design is just so beautiful. And it really began that, as far as I am concerned, you know, that kind of style of musical and it really gave a lot of people a lot of employment and a lot of inspiration for everything that followed. So I really appreciate it for that, and people should understand that, because it's a show that a lot of people can love to hate, but it's really kind of it doesn't deserve that. Yeah,

[31:48] Mike Abrams: I think it's an easy punchline. And so it's always been an easy joke to make, because it is a little weird, and there isn't a very clear story without digging pretty deep. And so I think there is a healthy level of respect for it, especially in the Broadway community, but also with a lot of the fandom. There is a humongous fandom for the show, yeah, but there's a lot of people that have seen it once, and or not seen it at all, and it's just again. It's an easy punchline. And so there is that. And I've kind of loved that there's been, I love that there's been a resurgence a little bit. And I even love that the bad 2019 movie at least sparked even more conversation about it, whether it helped or hurt. But I think it's one of those shows that everyone who does it, it's like, almost like a a family of like, it's brings them into this, like, cats, family and community, and then there is a humongous fandom that loves it, and they all really understand the art and respect the kind of what goes into it, especially from choreography, and just the difference in the thoughtfulness of the storytelling that's not necessarily always there, but also the freedom that they have as performers to kind of add to it. I'm sure you felt that way, as like, yes, you have your sketch, but you have some freedom as a creative to kind of add and bring your own flavor to it, which not every show has that. And that's where I think it's very unique to have that ability to tackle it in a little

[33:13] Speaker 2: different way. Oh, totally Yeah. It's so collaborative. The show the way that everyone works together. It's just, it's a real collaboration. And there's a lot of art going on there.

[33:27] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Well, this has been so fun. It's been fun to hear a different perspective of the show that I've not heard before. I do, like, it's probably the first grizzabel argument that I've kind of been like, maybe, maybe, maybe I'm here for this one. So thank you for bringing that sure and for sharing everything about your experience in

[33:45] Speaker 2: the show. Yeah, great. Thanks so much for having me Awesome. Well, thank you, and thanks everyone

[33:48] Mike Abrams: for listening to this episode of the wrong cat diet the podcast. Break down the cash chat Street to follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Boss on Twitter, Instagram, tik, Tok and threads is wrong had died or checked our website the wrong cat died. Calm. You.