This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:16] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. I'm your host Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. Right now, you can see her as Nini in Moulin Rouge, which just celebrated their fifth year on Broadway. But before that, she was one of the Macavity Girls in the 2019 CATS movie. So welcome, Sophie Carmen-Jones, and thank you for joining me.

[0:35] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Hi, thank you for having me.

[0:37] Mike Abrams: I have not had anybody from the movie, and the movie is what sparked this podcast. So I am excited to talk to you. And I also just re-saw Moulin Rouge and got to see your performance, which I believe you originated in the West End as well as Nini. So fun to talk about both shows.

[0:54] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yes, so much to talk about.

[0:57] Mike Abrams: So let's start though with CATS. I want to know, as a dancer, I'm assuming you had some familiarity with it before 2019 and this movie. So what was your CATS history prior to being cast in this movie?

[1:12] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I went and saw it in the West End with my mom. I think I was about maybe 13 years old. And I just thought it was one of the most amazing things I'd ever seen. The fact that the CATS were in the audience. I don't know what it was like here, but they were immersive in the West End. They'd come down the lanes of the auditorium. And the fact that it was sort of in the round was so exciting to me. I felt like I was up there with them, which was my dream at that time, of course. So yeah, I just thought it was awesome.

[1:46] Mike Abrams: How old were you when you saw it?

[1:48] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I think I was 13. I want to say that young.

[1:53] Mike Abrams: So very kind of challenging time, too, because you probably were starting to understand what was happening, but also maybe a little too young to fully comprehend what was happening.

[2:01] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah, I think I just loved dancing. I was obsessed with dancing. So I think all I cared about was that there was about 30 people in front of me in these cat suits, playing cats, dancing their absolute hardest, and I was just loving it.

[2:16] Mike Abrams: Yeah, you're like, forget the story. Let's just watch the movie.

[2:18] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I didn't know what was going on, but I didn't care.

[2:22] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. So then tell me about being cast in the movie. I mean, you've done other Broadway movies and Disney movies and stuff that have come through. So you're familiar with this process, but this one seems a little bit different because there was a lot of, there's going to be all the creative and how they're going to do all the, it wasn't CGI, it was the VFX, I think is how they said it back in the time. But also you're going to be dancing with Andy Blankenbuehler as a choreographer and all these different pieces to it. So when you got cast in the role, what was your first thought about being cast in a CATS movie?

[2:59] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Well, the way I was cast, the way I ended up getting cast was actually quite unusual because usually if you're going in to be a dancer in a movie, you go to a big audition with loads of dancers and they whittle it down and you end up getting a job, hopefully. But for this, I actually saw the casting director for something else. It was actually an acting role for a different film that I was going up for, a very small role that they needed physical performance for. And I went in for that and then that casting director said to me, did we pull you in for CATS at all? And I said, no, because I'd actually just been working on the Little Mermaid movie. It was something else, but I wasn't available to audition for the big chorus dance audition for that. So I said, no. She said, okay, because we're looking for four more girls for a small section of the movie. Can we call you in for that? You'd have to go in for a proper dance audition at the studio. I was like, yeah, absolutely. So the next week I went in and it was quite a small audition. So I think they'd already seen so many people that there was only a certain number that they hadn't seen yet. And it was just, they wanted four extra girls to be the Macavity girls to do this number with Taylor Swift. So I was like, absolutely, sign me up. I went and auditioned at the studio and yeah, ended up getting it. I think we had to sing as well, which is not the norm when you're going in for a dance in these movies, because usually they have other people do the singing and stuff. We had to sing for this audition as well because they actually wanted us to live sing it with Taylor. We did actually have some rehearsals with Taylor Swift as well, singing, which was really cool. But yeah, I was chuffed when I got the call that I got it. I was like, how cool, we're working with Taylor Swift in a dance movie, bring it on.

[4:50] Mike Abrams: So you knew that at that point that she was going to be doing the Macavity song and was going to be like, that whole section was going to be together with her.

[4:59] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yes, I think we did know that at that time.

[5:03] Mike Abrams: Talk about pressure for that. She was huge. I mean, she's the biggest star in the world right now, but she was huge at that moment. And to go in and know that you're going to get the opportunity to sing and dance with her in this movie, did that add to it or was it just another audition for you?

[5:22] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. I mean, to be honest, I do think when you go to these auditions, it just becomes another audition, another job opportunity. Those things are the bonuses, but it does get to a point where it's just another gig. You get it, if not, move on, see what's next.

[5:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, for sure. So I want to hear a little bit about the process for the movie, because I've heard so much about rehearsals for Broadway shows and how you learn the dance numbers and you learn your staging and then you go and you do it hundreds of times. But this is a little different because you are learning choreography, but it's being shot with all kinds of different tech around you and you get a lot more chances. So what was that like learning the choreography from Andy like? What was that whole process like from start to finish?

[6:13] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Well, you hit the nail on the head there with you get more chances. That's why I love working in film and TV. Because it's like, weirdly, even though there's loads of pressure, because there's loads of cameras on you and it is high pressure, you know that if it does go tits up, you can go again. Hopefully. But working with Andy was amazing, obviously, what a legend. And his team was so lovely. We had Ada and Colton as his assistants, and they were just so lovely. Because I did that one little number, I wasn't part of the main team that did the whole thing. It was really lovely to just drop in, learn the routine, workshop it a little bit. There was just four of us. We actually got to do a bit of aerial as well, which is really cool. We got to work with the stunt coordinator one morning. My experience was just lovely and fun and it was short lived. So it was just sweet, you know, got to go in, do a bit with Taylor, have a couple of singing sessions with her. It was just a dream. It was honestly just great.

[7:13] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And it's a part of the movie. I mean, I assume most people that are listening to this have seen the movie. And if not, you should, because it's a huge part of the cast history, in my opinion now. But it's my favorite song, Wicked Havoc has become my favorite song in the show. And so it's with pretty much everybody, because it's a huge part where the ball is essentially happening. So did you film with basically everybody there or was it done in parts?

[7:41] Sophie Carmen-Jones: The number that I did, yeah, everyone was there.

[7:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so the whole cast is basically there.

[7:47] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Dame Judi Dench was even brought in at the end of one of the days because we end up looking at her at the end of the number. Yeah, everyone was there. Idris Elba, there in his catsuit and his socks. Yeah, it was literally everyone was there. It was all hands on deck. It was awesome. And the sets in that movie were insane. It was so cool.

[8:09] Mike Abrams: I love it. I mean, it's such a cool number. I rewatched that number in particular as we were prepping for this and I was kind of going back through and there is so much going on in that number because everyone's there. There's all the moments. It is such a fun song because at that point, I don't think a lot of people really fully comprehend Cavity if you're not familiar with cats and Idris Elba pops in, it's when Taylor pops in. It's just that moment of the movie where there's so much happening. And it was fun to kind of watch it too, where there's so much happening with choreography and there's so much dancing happening, but the way they shoot it, it kind of jumps you around. So it's fun to kind of pull you out and be like, oh, here are the four Cavity girls. Now I see all the different things you're doing. But I want to ask a little bit about that because with a show like with Moulin Rouge, I was sitting in the orchestra and I had the ability to watch front and center you the whole time because I'm just able to see the stage. And so I get to see your Lady Gaga numbers and all these different things. But in that movie, the directing and the editing points me to where to look. And so as a dancer, is it hard to know that you're doing all these different things that maybe won't be as viewed because of where they point the camera at that particular moment?

[9:24] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh, totally. I always feel for the choreographers and creatives that their work just sometimes gets a bit butchered or their best moments don't get featured. It must be heartbreaking. But as a dancer, our job is to just do every take the absolute best you can possibly do and give it your all. You can't think about what's going to make it and what's not because otherwise that might affect how you do a bit. And what if that is the bit they pick? You just have to do every take your absolute best and not think about the edit because unfortunately, we have no control over that. So yeah, it is a shame when you had a lovely moment or it was a gorgeous bit of choreography that you loved doing that you were hoping would make it and it's not there. But that's just the name of the game. And you just can't really think like that when you're actually shooting it.

[10:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Was there a moment? Because that's one of the things having experienced Andy's choreography from the 2016 revival and just in general, watching that whole movie is I kept thinking there are moments like there's got to be some really cool things that I didn't get to see fully or I caught a glimpse of. So did you have a moment that you like love that did not make it in?

[10:42] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I mean, that number was awesome. Like it was such a spectacle. Like you said, you know, everyone was in it. It was huge. And I do kind of wish that it could like there was more like behind the scenes footage that people can see because it was gorgeous. Like it looked fantastic. There were so many moments where, like, you know, obviously you've got Taylor entering on that moon looking amazing. Then we come down, the four Macavity girls come down on these hoops and we like spinning. You don't really see much of that. I actually fell out of the hoop for one of the takes. I got overexcited and like span it really fast because we had to spin ourselves from the top. I just got a bit overexcited and we weren't we were harnessed. Obviously the stunt team were amazing, but I fell out of it. I was just like dangling in my harness. But yeah, luckily that didn't make the cut, the flying cat. But yeah, then like half of the ensemble of cats then came out and did this awesome like showy bit, like up on the stage at the back. I don't think you catch loads of that. But it's always the way, you know, all those dancers and actors that were in the whole film must have felt like that when they watched it back. Like loads of moments probably got cut, but that is just the way it is.

[11:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's actually my biggest gripe about the movie was I know there's a lot of there's criticisms of the movie, but my biggest gripe was is that I saw I caught moments and then I was like I wanted the rest of that moment and it jumped too much for me as someone who again coming from more of the Broadway stage lesson, you know, like knowing the musical, I wanted to see more of the dance and I didn't feel like I got as much of that because of it. But it's interesting to hear your process on that where it's like you don't even think about it in the time. It's like just go give it your all because you don't want it to have that one that one spot where you were like I'm not into it. And that's the part that they feature you on, right?

[12:34] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah, exactly. Especially, you know, as dancers in the background, you don't really get control over, hey, can we go again? If I shouted that out, they'd be like who the hell are you? Whereas, you know, if you are the main actor, if you're the one with the lines and, you know, leading the scene, then you can say, I didn't feel that one. Can we go again? And if they will, but sometimes, you know, these movies, they move fast. Like, sometimes we don't have time because they've got so much to shoot in a day. And over time is expensive. So it's go, go, go. You better deliver every take.

[13:06] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's so true. What about the costumes? Like how was that? Because like the cat, you weren't in a cat costume, were you? Like, so that was all added after.

[13:17] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. So we were in these like special suits that had rather than like the ones you see for like other films of use of like the dots on these were actually, they have like wires throughout them. Apparently they were like super modern, what you call it like cutting edge technology, where we had to like calibrate the suit to the tech in the morning. Like we had to sort of walk up and down whilst the tech guy was like calibrating us. And then it was like capturing our movement whilst we were doing it rather than afterwards they would do it in post with the dots sort of thing. I don't really understand it, but apparently it was like super modern, like cutting edge tech.

[14:04] Mike Abrams: Wow. Okay. So you, you didn't see yourself in the cat's costume until you saw a version of the movie?

[14:07] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. I never saw what I was going to look like as a cat. At all? No, just in these wig caps with like dots on our faces. We weren't even in slightly, you know, there was no nod to being a cat. It was literally just Sophie in a wig cap with dots on her face. Yeah. No tail, no nothing. Imagine that as a cat. That's gotta be, so that's gotta be, does it make it harder or easier? Cause it's just like you're focused on the dance. So maybe it doesn't matter.

[14:28] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Well, you know, not just the dancing cause, you know, everyone we're all acting as well as the cats. And I think did a lot of work with everyone to make sure that even when there wasn't set choreography, you were being a cat, you know, having to be such physical actors all the time. Like you have to move as a cat. You weren't allowed to just strut around, even though, you know, at times we kind of were giving it jazzy struts, especially in that sexy number. So, yeah, I think you just have to just imagine that that is what we all were, that we were being cats. We weren't humans. We were absolutely being and embodying cats.

[15:08] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Do you, did you think at all about your characters for that? Because like the Macavity girls, are you like part of the crime gang? Did you think about that? Did you give any backstory?

[15:18] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah, totally. We were like Taylor Swift's little side chicks, weren't we? So we were like part of her story, part of, yeah, all of that. Absolutely. And it makes it more fun for you as an actor and performer to think like that, you know, like the more you imagine and the more you immerse yourself in that world, the more fun it is. It's just playing, you know, it's great.

[15:39] Mike Abrams: So what was your character's backstory? Like what was, what do you remember?

[15:44] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah, I was 100% one of, all four of us were just like Taylor's absolute side chicks, like definitely the naughty cats. Like even the way we got to enter was like, I felt like I was, is it Catherine Zeta-Jones? I'm obsessed with Catherine Zeta-Jones. I feel like I mention her all the time. In, um, what's that movie where she like enters it on the, the wire and she's like dodging all the lasers in that movie where she's like being a robber basically. That's what I felt like. I was like, I'm dropping into like a museum here where I'm about to steal the crown jewels. Um, yeah, just like the naughty cats. Definitely.

[16:18] Mike Abrams: All right. We're going to figure out what that is.

[16:20] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I know. What is that movie? It's going to annoy me.

[16:22] Mike Abrams: It's not. So she did Chicago. It's not Chicago.

[16:26] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Not Mask of Zorro.

[16:27] Mike Abrams: Not Mask of Zorro. God, she's got, there's so many movies in her.

[16:31] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Um, oh no, this is going to be Entrapment.

[16:36] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yes. That's the one.

[16:37] Mike Abrams: Entrapment. That's what it is.

[16:39] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I sort of pictured being her. I think she wears like a big old black unitard, like an all sexy. So I think I was picturing being her in that moment, like coming in to get up to mischief.

[16:49] Mike Abrams: Oh, that's great. That's great. So you, you knew you were part of the crime gang and you were ready to go. Can you talk a little bit about after the movie came out? Because obviously this was polarizing. Like it was the trailer almost broke the internet. There were a lot of, a lot of, uh, you know, noise and stories around the edit and the, was it done? And it came out around Christmas. And so what was that like for you being in it? Um, obviously having, you know, movies that have done incredible and have, you know, rave reviews and having one like this, that won some Razzies and had some, some parts, but also knowing that you were in this amazing section of it that people loved.

[17:29] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. I mean, it's always disheartening when something you've been involved in isn't well received or doesn't do well, but I don't know, I guess again, with, with what we do, you, you just have to get used to the ups and the downs of the industry. And that is one of them that you might have been part of something that doesn't do well and that's okay. And you know, it wasn't a first for me. I was part of a musical that didn't do well once. So it's like, it just, it's part of, it's part of what we do. We just have to accept it and, and move on and not dwell on it, you know, and just like onto the next.

[17:58] Mike Abrams: Is there anything that you point to when people watch it or people learn that you were in it, where you're just like, what's the, been the like friends, family, crowd reaction for that?

[18:07] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I don't know, really, to be honest, I, I only watched it myself once.

[18:12] Mike Abrams: Just one time.

[18:12] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I'm not going to lie. I watched it the once and I was like, yeah, great. I saw my bits. Everyone's fantastic. All the dancers are amazing. There's some gorgeous performances. Isn't it weird that the cats sometimes aren't even touching the floor? It seems like there's a little, sometimes it looks like they're hovering a little bit, which is weird, but you know, it is what it is. I got to be a part of another movie and I'm grateful for that.

[18:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's funny you say that. Cause like, I still, my, when I tell everybody who like talks about this movie was the choreography and the dancing, it's incredible. Like it's, it's there and you know, like Andy's, Andy's amazing. And then the group of dancers that are in the movie from the people that did Broadway, there's people that did, um, modern dance and West End and ballet. There are some incredible, incredible moments. And I just, that's again, my gripe. I didn't get to see as much. I want just a wide angle shot of the movie. I want to see all of the dance.

[19:12] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Incredible dancers. There was like, you know, like amazing break dancers. Like they, they pulled in a team from like all over, not just, you know, theatrical performance. There was, yeah. Freestylers, b-boys. It was, they were amazing. I do, I do wish that you saw more of it too. I wish there was more behind the scenes footage that people could see. Maybe there is, I don't know.

[19:32] Mike Abrams: It exists. There has to be some, there has to be a version there that exists. So maybe if we pressure enough people, they'll, they'll release it for, for the masses. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. Well, let's talk about a different dance show. Um, let's talk about Mulan. So you originated the role in the West End of Nini, correct?

[19:53] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Correct.

[19:55] Mike Abrams: Okay. And then you are now doing it on Broadway. So what's that like switching, essentially going from doing it in the West End where it's similar. I'm assuming there's some tweaks and some differences and then coming to do it over here on Broadway.

[20:09] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. It is very, very similar. At the end of the day, it's the same show, but it's just on a different stage, much bigger stage on Broadway. So I've got to travel a lot more. Um, and it feels like a slightly different energy here as well. It feels a bit more, uh, lively and free. I think that's just maybe what the audiences crave here, or maybe it's that the audience feel a bit closer because it's wider in there. I don't know. It feels almost a bit more immersive here. So there was some slight adjustments and obviously doing it with a totally new cast. Um, I was the, I was the only one coming over. So for me, every single person was new, um, which was, you know, great and keeps it fresh for me, made it very different and interesting and yeah, it's just, and also coming to Broadway was just, just crazy. When I got the call off our direct Alex Timbers, I was like, what? Yes, please. Um, and yeah, it's just being, being a dream and I'm, I'm still living the dream, you know, a year and a half later, I'm still here and still, still loving it.

[21:08] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I think the number, the, the beginning of act two, I think is probably my favorite part of the whole musical, which is, which is mostly you. It's, it's pretty much you.

[21:21] Sophie Carmen-Jones: It's a proper ensemble piece that like it really is. I know me and Santiago do start it, but then it's like over to them and it is phenomenal. Everyone is dancing their asses off and it is awesome. Sonia and Taylor's choreography is just so cool. Yeah.

[21:39] Mike Abrams: So fun to perform every night. And what I love here is that, you know, within the realms of the set choreography, we're also given a bit of freedom, which is so fun to like continue to play and, you know, put your own twist on it and bring your own personality to it, which I think reads them, you know, in the audience, they feel that it feels powerful and yeah.

[22:00] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. It is cool to hear you say that because there are moments that you get to like interact with the crowd and you get to kind of have some freedom. And that did remind me a lot of cats where there is that kind of similar moments of where you can have, like, you know, you're, you're placed here at this part of the set, like you have to be here and you have to kind of do those things, but maybe you can do a little bit here, which keeps it a little fresh for you. I'm sure.

[22:22] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. I love those moments. Anytime that we've been given the freedom to sort of, you know, connect with the audience, it's brilliant because it just forces them to engage straight away. And, you know, these days with people's attention spans, you know, it's so important to like, bring them in and keep them involved. You know, as an audience member, I love that, you know, if ever I'm, you know, sat in the audience and the cast connect with me, I love it. I feel like I'm up there with them. It's, it's awesome.

[22:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it is. It's cool. I mean, we thankfully, we, when we came recently, we were in really good seats and so we were right up in front with you and it was cool to be able to kind of like experience those moments and, and it's a lot going on too. Again, there's a, you know, there's stuff happening in every, every part of the stage, which is, which is a cool thing. I hope people, most people I hope have seen it. If not definitely run to go see this show and it's, it's incredible. And that's why it's celebrating five years.

[23:12] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Absolutely. What, yeah, what a mad achievement. Five years on Broadway is, is amazing.

[23:18] Mike Abrams: Yes. This is no small feat these days. So I want to cast the Moulin Rouge cast as cats. So I love doing this. I think it's really fun. I did spend some time thinking about it. So I'm gonna want to put you on the spot here to try to get who you are.

[23:34] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Am I going to remember the names of the cats?

[23:36] Mike Abrams: I can help out. I can help out. So let's start with Harold Ziedler.

[23:42] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh, come on. You, you cast this one. You do that one for me. I've got some up my sleeve for the other roles. What do you think Harold is?

[23:47] Mike Abrams: I have Harold as Monkishtrap because Monkishtrap tells a story and I kind of feel like that Harold's almost a narrator of sorts, even though not fully, but that was kind of the closest.

[24:02] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh, he would cast himself as the narrator though, wouldn't he? In the show, within, within our show, he certainly makes himself.

[24:07] Mike Abrams: I also picked the hardest one. Yeah. There is a little bit of Bustopher Jones in the sense of, like, but there's, I have Bustopher Jones potentially as another spot. So.

[24:17] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Okay. Okay. Who, well, who do you want? Who do you have cast right away? Like who, who popped into your head?

[24:22] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I was thinking of Christian as Magical Mr. Mistoffelees.

[24:26] Mike Abrams: That's what I had as well.

[24:27] Sophie Carmen-Jones: No way.

[24:27] Mike Abrams: Okay. Yep.

[24:28] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Perfectly cast. Just cause he's, he's wide-eyed and he, he believes in magic, you know, he believes in romance. So I think that sort of parallels well with Magical Mr. Mistoffelees, that hopeless romantic and believing in magic.

[24:39] Mike Abrams: I agree completely. Um, what about the Duke?

[24:46] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I'm thinking Rum Tum Tugger, but no, because I think Santiago's Rum Tum Tugger.

[24:54] Mike Abrams: So it's interesting. So I have Santiago's Rum Tum Tugger. I think that one's clear cut.

[24:59] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah.

[24:59] Mike Abrams: I had the Duke as a combination of Bustopher Jones, Mr. Mistoffelees, and the Rum Tum Tugger because he's the money. So that's the Bustopher Jones. He also kind of is the villain, which is the Macavity, but then also he does have that swagger that you would have with Tugger.

[25:16] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Actually, yeah. He's Macavity.

[25:18] Mike Abrams: I think it's Macavity.

[25:19] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. Oh my God. Totally. David Harris currently plays the Duke. He is so a Macavity.

[25:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[25:26] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Well, that's the thing. I want to make sure we get some of these people into those roles too in the future. So, okay. So we'll have him as Macavity. What about, um, what about for you as Nini?

[25:33] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh, which one's Taylor's part? What's that called?

[25:36] Mike Abrams: Bomb Ballerina.

[25:37] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Bomb Ballerina. There you go. That's the one.

[25:40] Mike Abrams: That's what I had too, I just think.

[25:42] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah, I just casted myself as Taylor Swift, basically.

[25:45] Mike Abrams: You as Taylor.

[25:46] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I'll be Taylor Swift.

[25:47] Mike Abrams: Who do you think Taloos is?

[25:49] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I need to get the cast list up here. I need to get the names of the cats. Um, oh, I forgot about the Rum Tum Tugger. No, not Rum Tum Tugger. What are those?

[26:00] Sophie Carmen-Jones: What are the twins?

[26:02] Mike Abrams: Quokka Pat and, um...

[26:04] Sophie Carmen-Jones: No, Rumpelteazer, Mungo Joe.

[26:06] Mike Abrams: Oh, Mungo Joe and Rumpelteazer, yeah.

[26:11] Sophie Carmen-Jones: No, maybe he's Munkestra.

[26:11] Mike Abrams: No, yeah.

[26:11] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I think he's Gus.

[26:13] Mike Abrams: Oh, do you think? Oh, yes. Is that the Tapping cat?

[26:16] Sophie Carmen-Jones: That is, that's Skimbleshanks.

[26:18] Mike Abrams: Oh god, I'm getting bored. There's so many cats in this show.

[26:21] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I know, there's so, there's 20 or 30 in the introduction.

[26:24] Mike Abrams: Oh my god, I'm just going through the list now. Whoa.

[26:26] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Gus is Ian McKinnon.

[26:29] Mike Abrams: Oh, of course.

[26:31] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Kind of older, tells a story about how great they were. I could just see a Gus writing.

[26:37] Mike Abrams: I'm just looking at the other cats here, and actually, maybe I'm a Cassandra. Nene is Cassandra.

[26:40] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh, you could, could be, for sure.

[26:43] Mike Abrams: Maybe. Maybe she's a mix between the two.

[26:47] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Who do you have for Satine?

[26:48] Mike Abrams: Oh, maybe Satine is Cassandra, then.

[26:50] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I have Satine as Grisabella.

[26:52] Mike Abrams: Oh, but Grisabella's sort of, I know, I know what you mean, but I think it's so bad not to be ageist, but I think a Grisabella is old, and I feel like Satine, unfortunately, never makes it to that age, you know?

[27:04] Mike Abrams: That's true. It's, it's interesting you say that.

[27:05] Sophie Carmen-Jones: And something gets her, spoiler alert.

[27:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, well, that was part of why I'm like, well, they end in similar fates.

[27:12] Sophie Carmen-Jones: True. A young Gris. We'll have a Grisabella, but a gorgeous Gris.

[27:16] Mike Abrams: I think, I think those are all the characters I thought of. Is there anybody else I'm missing from Moulin Rouge we should be casting?

[27:22] Sophie Carmen-Jones: No, I mean, I just love the characters Mungojerri and Rumpleteazer, so I want to throw them in there. I feel like for our current cast, we could have Jeyma Juice as one of the Mungojerri or Rumpleteazers, and Tasia. They've got bouncy cat twin energy. I feel like we'll cast those as them.

[27:40] Mike Abrams: I love it. I love it.

[27:43] Sophie Carmen-Jones: And then maybe we'll have LaShock as, which is currently Jackie Arnold. What can we cast her as? We've got Exotica here. It says a dark, sleek, brown, and creamed female, similar to Cassandra in appearance, which was glamorous and snooty. Yeah, maybe we'll cast LaShock as Exotica. Why not?

[28:05] Mike Abrams: Okay, I love it. Let's do some rapid fire with going back to cats here. So if you could be in Cats the musical on Broadway West End, which cat would you want to perform as?

[28:16] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Taylor Swift's cat.

[28:17] Mike Abrams: So you want to perform, you just want to be Taylor Swift.

[28:21] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Basically, yeah. Who doesn't right now? Come on.

[28:23] Mike Abrams: We're just going to go on the heiress tour instead. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats character-wise? So like personality-wise, which one would you love or hate? Or which one just from the movie did you, not people, but like cat-wise, did you?

[28:37] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I mean, funnily enough, the part that I almost cast myself as there, Cassandra, no one likes the snooty bitch, do they? Really? I wouldn't want to be mates with her, but I probably would end up playing her. I think to get cast as that.

[28:50] Mike Abrams: Who would you love to hang out with?

[28:52] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Mango Jerry and Rumble Teaser.

[28:54] Mike Abrams: Just go have fun with the two of them. I love it. What's your favorite song from Cats?

[28:59] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Do you know what? I think because it's so iconic and makes me want to dance is the opening, the Jellicle Cat.

[29:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[29:06] Sophie Carmen-Jones: What's that actually called? Is it called Jellicle Cat?

[29:08] Mike Abrams: Well, there's the overture and then, oh, no, I'm drawing a blank on it. Yeah, the song that everyone knows. Yeah. I think it's just the overture, but yeah.

[29:13] Sophie Carmen-Jones: That's the one. Get excited.

[29:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it does. It's very well known. You hear it, you know exactly what you're into.

[29:25] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah.

[29:26] Mike Abrams: My fun question is, which cat do you think would be the best headliner at the Moulin Rouge? Who would be a good performer one night?

[29:31] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh, well, I feel like Mango Jerry and Rumble Teaser would give us a good little cabaret number, you know?

[29:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it'd be fun.

[29:41] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Old school, Parisian style, Boardville cabaret number.

[29:46] Mike Abrams: I kept thinking Mistoffelees or Tugger would also probably own with their magic and just confidence.

[29:49] Sophie Carmen-Jones: That's true. Magical Mistoffelees.

[29:52] Mike Abrams: There's a lot that would do really well.

[29:54] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. What about giving Rum Tum Tugger and Bon Ballerina slash Cassandra a duet?

[30:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[30:02] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Act two, Bad Row.

[30:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah. No, that would be, it would fit. Okay, my million dollar question that started this show, which is I argued I don't think Grizabella is the correct Jolko choice. So I'd like to hear who is your Jolko choice and why?

[30:20] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh my gosh. Why don't you think Grizabella is? I think she is the right choice.

[30:25] Mike Abrams: Okay. I want to hear your defense before I can give you my rationale.

[30:29] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I don't know. I just feel like sometimes it's her time.

[30:33] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[30:34] Sophie Carmen-Jones: You know, it just feels right. Sometimes you can't explain it. It's just like, yeah, that makes sense.

[30:40] Mike Abrams: So let me ask you, what do you think being the Jolko choice means?

[30:45] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh gosh, you're really putting me on the spot here.

[30:48] Mike Abrams: Digging into that cat's knowledge from 13 year old you.

[30:50] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I know, which wasn't a lot of knowledge, to be honest. I don't know, actually. What do you think? You're the one that's got most cat's knowledge here.

[31:00] Mike Abrams: I have too much knowledge on this show now. The idea is it's the cat to be reborn. My joke was that it was death. And then the different variations of it that I've seen, the most recent reimagined production, it was not really death at all. So I guess it depends on how you interpret that and how you interpret what being the choice means. So my counter argument for the longest time, my true counter argument is I don't think Grizabella should be welcomed back to her family and then be immediately murdered. Why not have her spend a year with her family and have a chance to... She gets the redemption arc that makes the story beautiful after singing memory, but why does she have to then leave? So that's been my argument, is why not send Gus, who's also on their last leg, ready to die, has had a long fulfilled life, and send him after she sings memory and she can spend a whole year with the family and she can go next year.

[31:57] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Wow. That's very thoughtful of you. I feel like you really connected to Grizabella and want the best for her. That's really lovely.

[32:04] Mike Abrams: That's my nice version. My original joke was that I thought it was a singing competition like the X Factor.

[32:09] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Oh my gosh. And I was picking who would I vote for as the American watching.

[32:15] Mike Abrams: I mean, she does sing a showstopper. She does, but I walked out, my favorite number walking out the first time was Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer. And if I'm choosing who is the most memorable to me, I have the Tugger and Mistoffelees number. So I want to send the two of them together as a boy band. So that's how I thought about it originally. But there's a lot of ways to interpret it. Whose number did we like the most? I think when I was a kid, Rum Tum Tugger did it for me as well. Yeah. So that sounds like maybe you need to change your vote to the Rum Tum Tugger. But then it's like you said, it depends how you interpret what being the Jellicle cat is because if it is that they get reborn, why don't we ask who wants it? Maybe some of them don't want it. I feel like Rum Tum Tugger is pretty happy where he's at.

[33:06] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. I don't think he wants it. So I don't think if you're doing the America voting, it's not the million dollar Vegas show act or an album. It's different. And so from that angle, I don't think Tugger and Mistoffelees are interested. But Macavity, Gus, Jenny Anydots, who we didn't even cover. There's a lot that I probably really do want it.

[33:25] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Yeah. God, there's a lot of cats in this show. There's a lot of characters to remember.

[33:29] Mike Abrams: So many. And they're all weird names that you got to try to remember how to say and what they do. And yeah, it's a lot. That's why I have hundreds of episodes learning it because I knew nothing when I started. Not your average structure for a show, is it? That's for sure.

[33:42] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Not at all. Pushing boundaries.

[33:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Well, this has been so fun. It's always fun to compare the musicals and hear about your experience in the movie, too. Again, this is the first time I've really had anybody get to kind of talk through the 2019 movie. So I appreciate you sharing.

[34:00] Sophie Carmen-Jones: You're welcome.

[34:00] Mike Abrams: How can people stay in touch with you on social media and everything you're doing?

[34:03] Sophie Carmen-Jones: I've just got Instagram at Sophie Carmen Jones.

[34:08] Mike Abrams: Okay. We will tag that. We'll also post how to go see Moulin Rouge. I highly, highly, highly recommend going to see it as soon as possible. It is such a fun evening or matinee at the theater. And so I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story.

[34:22] Sophie Carmen-Jones: Thank you for having me.

[34:23] Mike Abrams: Thank you. And thanks, everyone, for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the cat's philosophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of us as a podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and Threads at TheWrongCatDied or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.