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[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the CATS atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have two special guests. We have another CATS couple. They performed for many years on the US National Tour 4 as swings, standbys, assistant dance captains, dance captains, all kinds of roles for many, many years. I'm excited to talk CATS to another couple. So welcome, Chuck and Mickey Lubeck, and thank you for joining me.

[0:37] Chuck Lubeck: Hey, Mike.

[0:38] Mickey Lubeck: Hey, hey, thanks for having us.

[0:40] Mike Abrams: So I always love to start with your CATS history before being on tour. And I especially like asking tour four because almost most people by me, it's the 1998 movie, but you predate the 1998 movie. This tour was before that. It's before social media. It's before all this stuff. So what was your exposure to CATS before tour? And I know you mentioned before we started that you've done some other Andrew Lloyd Webber stuff. So you're probably familiar with his work.

[1:08] Chuck Lubeck: Right, right. I never saw it. I don't think I saw CATS until I actually was in it, until I actually got the job. I want to preface this by saying this was 30 years ago. I will do the best to tell you what I remember. I was one of the first six people to audition at the Winter Garden. That's the only time I ever met Gillian Lynn. I did Copeland and I was cut. So I actually was on the show, met her, and then I auditioned more times. That was the only time I was familiar with the show, was being on the set and auditioning. So in Chicago, I made it all the way to the end, as did Mickey, and we were put on file. And then after that, I just, I still hadn't seen it, but I knew about it. I had the books.

And of course, I was hungry to do the show because I'm a dancer. I wanted that on my resume, but it just didn't seem like that was in the mix. And then finally, Richard Stafford, who I'm sure you're probably familiar with. Richard was on tour in Evita with Mickey and I. And Jack, I think his name is Jack Vaughn. He was the musical conductor. His name could come up later. He called me, called us both to tell that he wanted us to come and audition in New York. And Mickey had just got her first choreographic gig, so she couldn't do it. I could, but I was like, Richard, why? I've already auditioned for this show. You've seen me, you know what I can do. And he said, Chuck, I'm taking over as the dance supervisor.

And it's like, they don't know you at all. It wasn't like he was giving me the job, but he was like, you got to come and show what you got. And I really think he did put his best foot forward for me, which I really appreciate. Got there, looked out, and I saw him and I saw the musical conductor for Evita, which is Jack. I'm just going to say Jack because I don't really remember his last name, and went through that whole process, which was a full cattle call. And I'm thinking, does anyone here not know this choreography? Really? But I love the way Richard teaches because he's very punctual, meticulous, and that was the kind of dancer I was. So I knew Copeland, but when he said, the arm is here, the eyes are there, the focus is here, that's that was my bread and butter.

Made it to the end, didn't sing. And Jack, the musical conductor, says, Chuck, can you do second turns, which is kind of an odd. I was like, yeah, left, right, what do you want? And ripped off a bunch of them, nailed it. Could you sing Mistoffelees after that? I didn't even know what. I was like, yeah. He's like, okay, thank you. That was it. Walked out the door and I'm like, here we go again. I came all the way out here. And then Mickey and I had just been married maybe a year, a year, and the phone rang and she handed me the phone. And I think it was Richard. I think it was Richard offering me the job and a swing position and Mickey was lamenting, you're going to leave me. We just got married.

[4:11] Mickey Lubeck: I was like six months, a year. We need the money. We get a house. And 13 years later, and Mickey was in the show. Six months later, she was in the show.

[4:21] Chuck Lubeck: I was in the show six months later. And it just took off on its own. So that's when I was rehearsing at 890 Studios. They let us go see the show. That was the first time I actually saw it. And I was just like, whoa, this is really crazy. This is amazing. And so that was my idea. I think that's the first time I saw it.

[4:41] Mickey Lubeck: I never saw the show either. I knew about it. I knew that it would be fantastic to be in it. I auditioned for the original cast and I'm this big compared to other people. But in that original call, I was cut really early on and I just saw that they were keeping a lot of types. They were typing out and this little white girl weren't going to cut it. They were exotic looking people, not exotic. So I went away. And then I started my, we had done Evita together and stuff. So I mean, people knew us. Richard Stafford was actually my dance partner, as well as my husband. And so we moved. And so I went back to Chicago and started doing my, I started building my resume in Chicago with lots of stuff. And I said, once we got married, I said, oh, Lord, please don't take him away from me.

Because I knew he was going to go. I'm like, please don't take him away from me for at least a year. And then it was a year and he's like, okay, off you. And then he left. But then we had, what do you call them? Replacement auditions again. And they had me back. And I joined the company in New Orleans. Six months later, I joined the company as a swing for the Kittens, of course.

[6:04] Mike Abrams: So you met on the Evita tour before, and that's when you got married. And then you, so this is, there's a year in between. And then Chuck, you go on tour and six months later, you join. And then you were off and on standby. If you look at the Wikipedia page for both of you, the lines of times that you're in the show is immense. So you were consistently doing it at times. And then you were on for months at a time. What was that journey like? Because it was, you said 13 years?

[6:35] Chuck Lubeck: That would be me when we had Nathan and Mickey decided she wanted to become a full-time mom. But she still traveled with me with Nathan. But I stayed that long. And we moved here to Augusta for a long time.

[6:51] Mike Abrams: What was it like doing all this?

[6:53] Mickey Lubeck: Thank you. I loved it. It was actually my favorite to do in a four-show weekend. Possible, Tumble, Mungo, Play-Doh. I loved it. It's just much more fun than being in the same track all the time.

[7:09] Chuck Lubeck: Truly. Nowadays, people understand swing better. They even have Swing Day on Broadway. But back then, they have Swing Day. Yay! Because swings got to know everybody's track. And like Chuck said, it's so cool to be able to go on for the White Cat one day and Rumpelstiltskin the next day. Or in the middle of a show, to hear your name on the intercom say, Demeter is sick. Get your makeup on. And do your makeup. And so that's totally fun as an actor, dancer, to be able to play in all those different parts. It's fun. They did ask me to go. I was at Cillabub for a year. The Cillabub left and they moved me into the Cillabub spot for a year. Yeah. So I did that for a full year. And then I can't remember what year that was.

But then, yeah, once I got pregnant with Nathan Dunn, it was awesome because Actors' Equity had just put in a plan for our health care that if you need to take maternity leave, you could like leave for a year. And it's exciting. And so I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm doing that. And so I did that. And then I came back and swung even more roles for a year. But I didn't. I brought a nanny on the road with me. I didn't like it. I wanted to be the mom. So that's when I decided we're done.

[8:44] Chuck Lubeck: Yeah. She came back right after at about that year. And she was all worried about being back in shape. And she was in shape. And she went on for Cassandra, the six-foot tall cat, the five-foot two. The guy who played old dude at the time, whenever I went out for Cassandra, he's like, honey, they shrunk the Siamese.

[9:02] Mickey Lubeck: That's so fun. I didn't know what swings were until I started the show. I just, again, didn't come from the theater background. And the concept of it is fascinating to me. It's just such a skill that most people don't have. And I think about CATS, like I know a lot of shows, everyone has swings. But CATS to me was one where I was like, the concept of swings can be crazy. You mentioned doing tumble, pounceable, Alonzo. But I always thought, to me, the crazy one is I've heard people who've gone on as Demeter and Bomba Arena on two show days in opposite sides. And I'm thinking that the main part of that number is the two of them and you're doing the total opposite half on back-to-back shows. My brain does not work that way.

So I love hearing, I mean, obviously, as dancers, you all have the skills to do that. But how much of the story and the character do you try to get into when you're swinging? Because I've spent a lot of time thinking about Demeter and Bomba Arena are two very different cats and personality types. But as a performer, you're like, don't kick the person. Get out of the way. Don't hurt somebody more so than like, oh, well, she had a traumatic background. How much of that do you think about when you're going on as a swing from the personality standpoint?

[10:27] Chuck Lubeck: Well, when I first started in the business, I consider myself, you put yourself in this hierarchy. I'm a dancer who sings and acts. And then it started, I'm an actor who dances and sings. It was fascinating. I think if you approach it as an actor, you have the skills to dance it. And the whole story is done through physicality. And so you have to be able to do it. And that's what makes it so much fun being a swing. If you're a good swing, you know, to be able to really grab hold of these different personalities and different backstories and be able to just go out there and, you know, play with the other kittens as you're saying. And then if you're the white cat, oh, my goodness, then a whole different thought process. And then when you're Demeter, you just like drink a lot of caffeine and, you know, start chasing squirrels and stuff. So, yeah, it's really fulfilling as an actor to be able to bounce around like that, instead of tracking one, you know.

[11:38] Mike Abrams: When you were on stage together, and you were in characters that maybe shouldn't have been friends or friendly, was that challenging? Was that more fun? Like, how does that dynamic go when you're already married, but your rival cats are supposed to be brother, sister or some version of that?

[11:58] Chuck Lubeck: It used to cost, if we went on together, they would announce that the flying Lubecks were on. And that's when we didn't want to be a teaser or she'd be Demeter and I'd be Macavity. Those are probably the two that we would interact the most. And I love when she went on for Demeter because she was light as a feather. Get her up over your back, no problem. Probably she had more trouble with me in Mungojer, Rebel Teaser, because she's so small and her cartwheels are so fast. And I'm 5'10". And I can cartwheel, but I was like a lug nut on it. I could do it. But if she went on with someone with her, her same height, they could do six or eight across the stage. Whereas with me, it was like one, two. I was able to do it with. But I think other than that, we got along great.

[12:41] Mickey Lubeck: No, it was fun. There was no big, it was a family on stage. Just because he was there. It's like, whatever, I see him all the time. But when we did Mungo Rump, that's the one, I mean, we'll do either two, but Rumpel Teaser, having to do Mungo Rump with so many different guys. I had my favorite.

[13:05] Chuck Lubeck: Really? Because some of them would, I mean, there was one that hurt my back because he couldn't do the cartwheels. And so I had to like lift him over. But like that, having him on stage, you could trust him. I could trust him. Like, you know, I mean, was it during, it was during CATS when we were rehearsing one time and you broke your foot because you saved me.

[13:32] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[13:52] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[14:12] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[14:32] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[14:52] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[15:12] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[15:32] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[15:58] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[16:26] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[16:54] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[17:22] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[17:50] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[18:19] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[18:48] Chuck Lubeck: Chuck Lubeck, Swings on US National Tour 4.

[19:17] Chuck Lubeck: We're gonna take a quick break, and we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[19:42] Chuck Lubeck: I want to do some rapid fire to hear some, these are all cats specific.

[20:11] Chuck Lubeck: So, if you were to go on today, for one track, who'd you want to go on for?

[20:37] Chuck Lubeck: If I was in total shape to do it, I would do Mustafa Lees.

[21:07] Chuck Lubeck: Cause I never got to, I never got, I could cover it.

[21:37] Chuck Lubeck: I could cover it. I got to the point where I actually, we had no understudies.

[21:52] Chuck Lubeck: Everybody was gone, but I had one guy on stage, and they told him, do not call out to get Chuck to go on.

[22:22] Chuck Lubeck: Even though I was ready, they gave me a costume, I was ready.

[22:49] Chuck Lubeck: And that's a hard, if you're not doing that number every night, especially when you're dance captain, you're just, you just,

[27:05] Chuck Lubeck: I'd be dead. I mean, I could get through it, but I'm sure the wind would have been out of me by the time I was done. So to be able to do it in my prime, that would be fun. I would love to. I would do that. I would do Rumpelteazer. She's always been my favorite because she's just silly and fun and, you know, she's a hoot. I'd do that.

[27:24] Mike Abrams: Who are your favorite and least favorite cats personality-wise? So like, which one would you like to hang out with and which one would bug you as a family member? That's like kind of the annoying one that you don't get along with.

[27:34] Chuck Lubeck: I don't know. I told you, I don't like the Jelly Lawrence and the Jenny Annie, the old ladies. I mean, I don't mean that against the actors in the show.

[27:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. Not people, the cats.

[27:46] Chuck Lubeck: Cats personality. Yeah. And probably Gus would be kind of a gross guy to hang out with. But yeah, but fun might be Tugger, I suppose. I think Tugger and probably Old Deuteronomy to be with the Elder and hear all the stories about, that's about as much as I can give you. You know, I'm not sure. I mean, I love Bomb, but Bomb is just so full of herself, you know, and she's just pretty. You know, I don't want to hang around with somebody who's that pretty. So yeah, Bomb, you know.

[28:21] Chuck Lubeck: The only thing I know is it might be Grizabella before she goes. Oh, we could like go out to the bar and hear all her stories. Maybe not the bar.

[28:34] Mike Abrams: What's your favorite song from the show?

[28:36] Chuck Lubeck: Oh, gosh. I like the Overture. Actually, to tell you this, I love the Overture. Love the Overture, which is also the Jellicle Ball. Andrew Lloyd Webber, even just when we would do Evita, that whole da-dum, da-da-dum-dum, I love that. So, there's no words to that, but if it's a song, I love Macavity. I think I like Macavity the best. Yeah, and Macavity is fun to sing, too. That's a fun song. Kind of janky.

[29:03] Mike Abrams: Okay. I always ask a fun one, and before we started and then you brought it up during, we talked a little bit about Michael Jordan. So, if we were going to have a Cats Space Jam with Michael Jordan infusion here, who would be the best basketball player out of the Cats?

[29:23] Chuck Lubeck: Oh, it's got to be, probably Jackie. It'd probably be Alonzo. It'd be somebody tall. It'd have to be Alonzo. Alonzo, I guess.

[29:32] Mike Abrams: An athletic tall.

[29:34] Chuck Lubeck: I think General. The second I think of Alonzo, I think of General.

[29:36] Mike Abrams: General McCarthy. Whatever card he plays.

[29:40] Chuck Lubeck: See, I thought you were going to ask me. I'm a massage therapist now, so I thought you were going to ask me who'd be the best.

[29:45] Mike Abrams: No, no. I want to know how we're doing a starting five. I think Mistoffelees is at point guard. I think Alonzo's playing power forward. I think a lot of-

[29:53] Chuck Lubeck: See, you've already-

[29:54] Mike Abrams: I'm ready. I'm ready for these questions.

[29:56] Chuck Lubeck: Absolutely. The team together. And then we get the cheerleaders on the side, the cute ones.

[30:01] Mike Abrams: No, no. Lola Bunny is one of the best players in that movie. They're playing.

[30:06] Chuck Lubeck: That's right. That's right. Lola Bunny.

[30:09] Chuck Lubeck: Bomb Ballerina is probably ready to go. She's tall. She's ready to play. Jill, though. She just do the three-pointers. Like, okay, give it.

[30:19] Mike Abrams: She won't play any defense. Just pure offense.

[30:21] Chuck Lubeck: We have the height, though.

[30:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah. You get a whole-

[30:26] Chuck Lubeck: Because we used to, we were bowlers. We used to go bowling. We had bowling balls that we'd carry us. We used to do volleyball. Volley golf was a big thing. We played a lot of golf.

[30:35] Chuck Lubeck: Yeah, we played a lot of golf. But bowling, I used to carry a bowling ball, a 16-pound bowling ball with me. And we played volleyball out in the sand whenever we could. So, we had a pretty athletic group of people.

[30:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah. You have to be to do the show. You have to be an athlete to dance the show.

[30:54] Chuck Lubeck: Okay. My million-dollar question, this whole podcast is around, I don't think Grizabella is the right jovial choice. So, I want to hear, who is your jovial choice and why?

[31:04] Chuck Lubeck: You want me to go?

[31:05] Mike Abrams: Yes.

[31:05] Chuck Lubeck: Okay. I'm only going to go from the standpoint of being in the show from the beginning when David Taylor gave us the- And I think our show is why things get watered down as you come to that. Because I worked with people in the original, people in Germany, people, and they worked with Jillian. They would look at our show and go, they'd see moments that were- But it was choreographed for us and staged on us. But David Taylor said to us that in human, to equate it to a human, she was the most beautiful cat in our tribe, like a Bomb or a Demeter. And to keep it in human terms, we sent her to New York and we gave her money to go to New York and make our Jellicle tribe proud. And she goes there and she has hard times.

And so, she's young. She's a young cat. But what you see is the abuse that she's taken. So, when she comes back, she knows that she is physically going to die. She is physically at death's door, but she's coming back to see if she can be sent to the Heaviside Lair. And so, when she comes out at the very end, it's not Old Deuteronomy that chooses her. It's Victoria. Victoria is the one that walks out to her. And so, when she touches her, even if you've seen the show and Old Deuteronomy is going to pick who gets to go to the Heaviside Lair, everybody's reaching, even the kittens. So, everyone wants that chance to do it. So, it was never taught to us that she was going to die other than in physical form on earth, but she gets to go to the Heaviside Lair.

She looks up and somehow, at that point, I never thought anything about it, to be honest. So, I thought she was the logical choice because she is at death's door. And Gus, even though he's old, he still has, you know, he's still wanting to give himself something to drink. He still likes to talk and do that. So, I think that's why Old Deuteronomy, he wants her to go, but he doesn't want to be the one to make the choice. He wants us to make the choice for the right reason, as opposed to him saying, this is who's going. So, that's the way I saw it. And I never thought about it.

[33:13] Mike Abrams: You never mentioned her name.

[33:22] Chuck Lubeck: I'm only saying that because that's what I was taught from. So, you can argue that point all you want. That's the way it is.

[33:30] Chuck Lubeck: Yeah, because I've heard some of your past where we never looked at it. I mean, I never looked at that he killed her. He just said, boom, and then she's there and whatever that is, and she's born somewhere else in the tribe, I guess. So, that's my answer.

[33:45] Mickey Lubeck: How about you, dear?

[33:46] Chuck Lubeck: Okay.

[33:47] Mickey Lubeck: It's a good answer.

[33:47] Chuck Lubeck: It was a good answer. I think she agrees with me. I'm just going by the moral of the story when I went through the whole. And so, that's my take on it.

[33:56] Mickey Lubeck: Yeah, because, you know, I never thought about that. But yeah, I mean, I always figured it had to be Griz, but Gus, you know, he's elderly, he's a little senile, you know, maybe let's give him a shot to come back and be a better actor next time. Or maybe go into sports. I don't know, do something else.

[34:18] Chuck Lubeck: Yeah.

[34:20] Mickey Lubeck: Holden Alamy uses Gus as a learning moment for us. So, opening the act, he points to that to happen. So, we're supposed to watch this guy that we, even though he's kind of gross, and he's got palsy, and he drinks, and he really wasn't a very good actor, even though he thinks he was, we still love him, and we still allow him to be in the tribe. So, how is that any different than Grizabella? I get the lesson we're learning. And then it goes on. And then Older Alamy allows himself to be captured by-

[34:50] Chuck Lubeck: What?

[34:51] Mickey Lubeck: Yeah, he allows, he's stronger than Macavity. He could just stop him with a hand, but he allows himself to be taken because he knows now that Tugger and all of us are going to have to come together to take care of this. And then you bring in Mistoffelees, and yay, we're back.

[35:09] Chuck Lubeck: Okay, see, you remember this way better than you're saying. You had to bring this home at least part of the time with you.

[35:14] Mickey Lubeck: Well, I mean, in the beginning, I was-

[35:18] Chuck Lubeck: Yeah.

[35:18] Mickey Lubeck: I need in the beginning, because he was in New York six weeks rehearsing, and I'm at home in Chicago with, by this time, I have three cats. So, I have three real cats in my house at home. He's in New York studying. He would call me and go, okay, today, I was kind of thinking about Jedediah. And I'm like, oh, my God. I'm like, oh, my Lord, he's gone.

[35:44] Chuck Lubeck: He's a healer indeed. I mean, honestly, goodness, I did it once. I went to bed as a cat.

[35:51] Mickey Lubeck: Oh, God.

[35:52] Chuck Lubeck: And then I was like, okay, I've done enough of that. But we go home tonight. Don't go to bed as a human. Go to bed. So, I did it, and I was like going, what am I doing? I can do this without doing this. And so, I admit it. I admit it.

[36:10] Mickey Lubeck: It's great. I think the only difference in my argument against Grizabella from everything you said is that the debate of if she's on death's door or not, because if she is, then it's a very different question than if she has more life to live. And that's where I've kind of like, especially as I've seen more of the newer productions, there's a lot of younger performers acting as Griz, and I'm like, yeah, they're amazing, and they're doing a great job, but they're like 23. They're not ready to die. Give them a year with the family. So, I think that that's the biggest difference of if you believe that, then you need to send her. And if you don't, then it's kind of cruel to welcome her back and then be like, no, exile her.

So, I agree with everything you said until that point, and that's where I split and differ and where my argument stems from. My argument also was purely a joke at the beginning. Very different. Yeah, we're not changing the name yet. This has been so fun. How can we stay in touch with you and teaching and all the different things you're doing?

[37:13] Mickey Lubeck: Yes. So, when we moved down here to Augusta, Georgia, I had retired. I got two kids by then. I got four altogether now. But I started a group way back then. It was around, what did I say, 1999, 2000. I don't know, something like that. I started a group called Children's Musical Theater Ensemble with just a small group of children, and then it grew and grew. And once the children became like teenagers, they're like, we're not children anymore. I'm like, yes, you are. But I changed the name to Musical Theater Workshops. And so, now I have, my business is called Musical Theater Workshops, and the website is onwiththeshow.biz, B-I-Z, he thought of that, onwiththeshow.biz. And I've been teaching for a long time, over 20 years.

And I've got kids that have gone on to, you know, do films or do commercials, but I really do it just to have fun with these kids and encourage them and let them come out of their shells and stuff. And we do a couple big musicals every year. So, it's fun. Yeah.

[38:18] Mike Abrams: Are you doing Cats anytime soon?

[38:20] Mickey Lubeck: No way. No, we're not. No, we're not a dance studio. It's really an acting studio with kids who move and stuff. And so, even when we went out and did some competition, I said, kids, remember, you are actors. You are actors who happen to know how to sing and dance. You have to act this, even though it's a musical, you got to act it. And then we would win stuff, because they were acting, and you can believe their characters. Anyway, sorry, I just love what I do.

[38:52] Chuck Lubeck: That's amazing. Well, we will link all of that in there for anybody who wants to check it out. And thank you all for coming on. It was so fun to hear some fun stories, interpretations, thoughts from many years of doing this show.

[39:08] Mickey Lubeck: Yeah, a long time.

[39:10] Chuck Lubeck: You know that our son Nathan performed with the Watkins, with Lauren Watkins. They were in the same Cats up in Vermont. He's our oldest. He's the one that, when I got pregnant, when we were touring, I was still a swing. I stayed on the road until I was almost five months pregnant with him. And then once he came back with him, and he was just a little toddler, he and I wasn't in the show anymore, but I kept coming back and visit this one. When we opened somewhere, he would run around the stage, and the follow spot operators would follow him. And he'd go down the pit and play the drums. And yeah, so it was very much a film. He was destined to do this show.

[39:51] Mickey Lubeck: Yeah, to say he was destined, it was like full circle.

[39:53] Chuck Lubeck: He might have been wearing my unit top.

[39:55] Mickey Lubeck: Yeah, he and Lauren did it together. So that was cool. That was cool. It was kind of full circle.

[40:00] Chuck Lubeck: Full circle. Absolutely. Yeah, he came out on stage on my final show. I went on and he came out with flowers for me. And then they bake you. You go into the oven. They open the oven, and they throw you in the oven, and you're baked. You're done.

[40:13] Mike Abrams: Well, thanks, Mike. We appreciate it.

[40:15] Chuck Lubeck: This was so fun. Thank you, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown to catch up. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any other podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, and threads at TheWrongCatDied. Check out our website, TheWrongCatDied.com.