This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He just finished up on the international tour that performed mostly in China, and he was performing as the Rum Tum Tugger. So welcome, Jesse Chidera, and thank you for joining me.

[0:27] Jesse Chidera: Thank you so much for having me.

[0:30] Jesse Chidera: I'm excited to talk to you because this is the first person from this particular part, you're the first of this part of the tour that I've talked to, and you just finished. You've just taken off the Tugger costume recording, so this could not be more fresh for you.

[0:41] Jesse Chidera: Yeah, absolutely. It feels like I've just taken off this Fandex costume, just removed the makeup from my face and all that, taken off the wig, and it's right back into my bedroom.

[0:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah, right back to real life as a human now.

[1:01] Jesse Chidera: Yeah, normality.

[1:03] Mike Abrams: So let's start, though, with your history with Cats before being cast in this production. It's obviously been around for a while. There was a 1998 movie. What was your level of familiarity with the show before being cast as Tugger?

[1:13] Jesse Chidera: So I feel like I got into musical theatre quite late. So now I'm 23 years old. I feel like I started around 17 years old, and I found out about Cats around that time, 17 to 18, because my course teacher, my college teacher, Gary Watson, he actually played Rum Tum Tugger. So he was just like, I think at one point, telling us about some of his experiences before he became a teacher, and part of it was Cats. And I didn't really know anything about Cats because I didn't know too much about anything to do with musical theatre. I think the most I knew was The Lion King because the cartoon is one of my favourite movies of all time. So around this point, I was just trying to think of like, okay, what musicals do I know?

What musicals do I not know? So how can I improve myself? How can I gain more knowledge about it? And he told me about Cats, and that's one of the things I googled. And when I googled it, I saw on Wikipedia, and it just felt like one of the most incredibly bizarre things I've ever read in my whole life. And it's to its strengths. It's just this tribe of jellicle cats, dancing, singing around, trying to figure out who's the best fit to die. Like if you break down the story, it feels like an LSD trip. But when you actually come to watch it, it's the most profound, amazing thing that you'll ever experience your whole life. And even being in it is a privilege.

[2:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's kind of an LSD trip watching it. I mean, with the junkyard and the moon and everything kind of going around. I love that your introduction was reading the Wikipedia page because that's very similar to mine. I saw it in 2016 for the first time. But then I went home and I'm like, what did I watch? And I read that same Wikipedia article. And I don't think it probably made more questions than it answered for me.

[3:17] Jesse Chidera: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. It's one of those things that you have to really experience it for yourself to really understand it. So you read the, you're taught by a Tugger. You're reading this article. Did you go find the movie to watch? At that point, had you ever seen it? When was the first time you saw it?

[3:36] Jesse Chidera: Yes. So after I read the Wikipedia, the description, I went to watch the VHS. And that was one thing I watched. And I was even more confused because it's one of those musicals where it's all sang through. And I kind of, especially around this time at 17, my attention span was very, very poor. So half of the time, one song would finish. And as we're getting on to the next song, my brain will still kind of try to be figuring out what the last song meant and all that, trying to recapture that. And then all of a sudden, oh crap. Okay, Grizabella's come. Okay. What's her story? Oh crap. Bustopher Jones has come. But I think it's one of the, but at the same time, it's also to its strengths because it has so much rewatchability value that you want to keep on picking up on different stories.

You want to watch more of the kittens. You want to see, oh, I haven't seen what's going on there. What's Alonzo doing with Bombalurina there? You know what I mean? There's just so many new stories you can find every time you watch Cats. So when I went to watch it, it just made me want to watch it more and more and become more invested in it. And I just fell in love with it so quickly.

[4:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's interesting to hear you say that because I think that's why there's such a fan base, like a super fan base of the show, because you can go any night and watch a different storyline from a different cat and get a different experience. And I remember, you know, I had seen it just before doing the show. And then I went to the U.S. tour about a hundred, I was like 90 something episodes in. So I really knew the plot at that point a lot better. And I went and watched them and I was fascinated by the twins because I would have never noticed that the twins turn first and that they're the ones that notice things first. And all these small nuances that, if you know the show deeply, can create a different viewing experience than if you're just going in for the first time.

And I was like you the first time, being like, wait, what just happened before the next cat just gets brought out? And then half the time I was trying to figure out what was their name again? These are these bizarre, wild names thrown at you for two and a half hours.

[5:39] Jesse Chidera: Yeah, absolutely. Every cat is so unique, and especially like what you just picked up on with the twins. They have this telepathic-ness about them. Like, especially if you, when you watch act two, after Old Deuteronomy sings the moments of happiness, it is, um, who are, who's the cat? Oh my God, I'm forgetting characters' names. The twins are Tantomile.

[6:04] Jesse Chidera: Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, you have, uh, Jemima who sings Memory for us, actually, this is a tidbit. We sang, um, Moonlight in Mandarin for the Chinese audience.

[6:18] Mike Abrams: Oh, cool.

[6:19] Jesse Chidera: Yeah. So that was really brilliant. But as I was saying, you, when you get to that moment, it is the twins who instill that message into Jemima who instills that song into all of us. So it's just those little parts. It's just those little parts of the show where every cat gets to, you know, be highlighted, their strengths get to be highlighted. You know what I mean? Like even Alonzo, his little fight with Macavity, like for example, he's always trying to be, whenever Monkestrap, whenever Old Deuteronomy isn't around, Monkestrap is the leader. And in a way, Alonzo is kind of the second in charge. So he's always looking to Monkestrap for advice for stuff. In a way, his character arc is him trying to find his own strength, find his own way of being a leader whenever Old Deuteronomy or Monkestrap isn't around.

And that happens when they fight Macavity because Old Deuteronomy has gone, God knows where, and Monkestrap is out of commission. Alonzo, bless him, he gets jobbed on and is taken out straight away. But the fact that he's able to find that courage somewhere, that's a big arc for him. So every character has that going on for them.

[7:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah. There's a full story with everybody and it's not defined. It's like you've got a loose outline, which is what makes it cool because you can fill in some blanks and create kind of some of your own personal parts to it. I want to go back to, real quickly, you mentioned that you sang Moonlight in Mandarin. What was that like learning a song in a different language, especially during most of the show in English, and then having that one kind of shift?

[8:08] Jesse Chidera: Yeah. How was it? Because at first, it was just Jemima who sings it in Mandarin, and then we all sing it in English. But when we actually did perform it, there was such a great reaction to the Chinese audience that we thought, let's just go a little bit further and have all of us sing it. So hearing Jemima sing it multiple times, we kind of already had a feel of it. And so the way we did it was, every day, we would learn a line, and then the next day, we would learn another line. So one week, instead of Moonlight, turn your face to the moonlight, we'll go, I feel like I'm forgetting a lot of it. But yeah, and then we go to Chu De Kai, Chu Tan Chu, and then another day, we would go and do the next line.

And then from there, we just learn it. And that's one of my favourite parts of the show, because that's the part that the Chinese audience, I feel like, enjoy the most, because that's where they feel the most connection. They don't have to look at the subtitles. And one thing I found out is that in China, Cats are really popular. For a lot of them, it was in the syllabus when they were in school. They learned Memory. So for us to sing it back to them in Chinese, it really hit them personally. So it was just such a special moment in the show for all of us.

[9:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I wanted to ask about the audiences, because the show has been doing international tours for a while. And from what I've heard from people I've talked to in China and Japan and Korea and a lot of Asian countries, the fan base is just incredible. They love the show. They're passionate about it. So what was your experience with the audience interactions? And did you have many of them doing these shows? Because you were at these places for multiple weeks at a time, right? It wasn't a simple bus and truck moving around. You got some decent amounts of stands at places.

[10:16] Jesse Chidera: Yeah, absolutely. The Chinese fans are so passionate about the show. And I feel like part of the reason is, especially here in London, there is such a big culture in theatre. Sometimes on a Friday night, you'll go watch a show. So we're in a way kind of used to theatre and all that. But maybe it's not as accessible in China. So whenever a show like Cats comes, like the last time I came, it was like five years ago, I feel like. So whenever it does come, it really does feel really special to them. And you can really see that within them, especially when you go to the stage door and you're showered with like a lot of the gifts, a lot of personal stuff. And all

[11:59] Jesse Chidera: A lot of it was me trying to find a middle point. Most nights I would just pick up someone and have a little dance with them, make the crowd clap for them. Sometimes if there was a kid in the audience, I would give them a little high five. My favorite one was anytime there was an empty seat in the front row. I would go sit down in that seat and just watch.

[14:24] Jesse Chidera: With the architecture, the history, like, and just everything about it. So anytime, especially in the beginning of the tour when we weren't exhausted, I would always try to go to as many landmarks as possible, you know, see places at night. I think at one point during the New Year, I had a little hike up a little mountain just to see what, at the time we were in Shanghai, to see what Shanghai looks like at night with all the lights. It's just beautiful. So most of the time I was mindlessly exploring, just living the inner child in me.

[15:10] Jesse Chidera: That's amazing.

[15:14] Jesse Chidera: Okay, I want to pivot now to theories of Tugger because you mentioned that everyone has their little stories and backgrounds, and there's all this stuff that you can see in a different show. I want to hear first what you were told about Tugger's story in this rehearsal process.

[15:32] Jesse Chidera: What was I told about Tugger's story in the rehearsal process? I feel like the one thing that's not stated in the show, but I feel like it's something that is mainly agreed on, is that he is the brother of Munkustrap and, you know, the second son of Old Deuteronomy.

[15:44] Jesse Chidera: So, yeah, well, so I'm curious about that because you just mentioned that you thought Alonzo is like trying to be next in charge after Munkustrap. I guess third in charge after Old Deuteronomy. There's like this belief that maybe it is actually Tugger and Munkustrap who are fighting for that next in line. Did you ever feel that or play it that way?

[16:06] Jesse Chidera: I don't think so. I feel like Tugger knows that he would never be a leader, and I don't think he ever wants to be a leader. I feel like he is very content with letting his older brother, you know, I feel like for him being a leader would be too restrictive. He wouldn't be able to live his free life. He has to live by example, and Tugger knows that would probably be too boring for him. You know, I mean, he has to make sure that everyone is okay, cater to everyone's needs. He can't live the rock star life, I feel like. So I feel like he always will just watch Munkustrap and he will just make the job a little bit harder for him in a way to test him, to test his wits. But I don't think he'd ever gun for the leader spot. That's how I would, that's how I've had at least.

[17:02] Jesse Chidera: No, I mean, I think that's what's kind of beautiful about it is that, yeah, that way you could play it as like, well, he's pretending he doesn't want it, but he actually wants it. And so there's a lot of different versions of that. So what's the other stuff that you kind of like built into your Tugger story?

[17:11] Jesse Chidera: Hey, what's one of them? I think this is quite drastic. I saw him as an illegitimate child of Bustopher Jones.

[17:19] Jesse Chidera: Oh, okay. Yeah. And he was in a way abandoned because maybe that wouldn't really, like, it would just, I don't know, ruin the reputation of Bustopher Jones having an affair. So Tugger, he was just left to Old Deuteronomy, who took him in as, you know, an adopted child. That's why Tugger looks completely different from everyone else. And for me, that might be a key reason why Tugger is so fascinated with Mr. Mistoffelees because they both, Mr. Mistoffelees and Bustopher Jones look quite similar, like tuxedo-ish kind of black cats. So in a way, maybe Mr. Mistoffelees subconsciously reminds Tugger of his father, who he never knew.

[18:13] Jesse Chidera: I have never heard that. I love it. That is, I've always fascinated when I get a new angle, and I've never heard abandoned by Bustopher and that's why the Mistoffelees kind of like duo comes from is that it's that subconscious, it kind of looks like him. Yeah. So who's the mother? Did you think about who the mother was?

[18:26] Jesse Chidera: I didn't, but I think the mother is from a completely different tribe. Not as you wouldn't be a Jellicle. I think Tugger is like an honorary Jellicle. And because I feel like in our group, we also agreed that Bustopher Jones himself isn't a Jellicle. He's too prestigious for him. He just comes in, you know, maybe he will sit down, eat some curry, let everyone, you know, worship him, and then he goes off. I feel like that's kind of the same with Tugger. He is still a Jellicle in spirit because he was raised in that area, so he's part of the Jellicle way, but he's not like by blood, you know, a Jellicle cat.

[19:11] Jesse Chidera: Okay, what other relationships with cats did you play with Tugger? Like you mentioned Mistoffelees and Bustopher. Was there anything with Grizabella or Bombalurina or any other character?

[19:16] Jesse Chidera: Grizabella, um, there was, um, I feel like Tugger, anytime I saw Grizabella and Tugger would like walk away, I played it like he felt he actually really felt sorry for Grizabella. He felt subconsciously bad, but Tugger has like a reputation to be that kind of, "Nah, I don't care. You're ruining the game. You're ruining the party." But there were any time he'd lock eyes with Grizabella, anytime I played it, in the behind the eyes, there would just be a bit of like melancholy. But then afterwards, he'd just be like, "No, no," because I feel like he does understand being abandoned, you know? Like, yeah, I feel like that never left Tugger, but he has to pretend as if he's just stoic. He doesn't care. He's a rock star. He needs to find somewhere else to sing, you know what I mean?

[20:11] Jesse Chidera: Um, what about Bombalurina?

[20:11] Jesse Chidera: Bombalurina, so the way we played it because I was one of the younger people in the cast, we played it where Tugger, he's kind of like a rebellious teenager, and Bombalurina was like, "All right then, come on." And then so anytime Bombalurina came on to Tugger, I was like, you know, in secondary school when you're trying to impress, you know, your friends, you're like, "Yeah, I get girls, I get girls." And then when a girl actually comes in, you just pretend to go on your phone and swipe around. So it's kind of like that. So the moment where, you know, when Tugger sings, "Only like what I find for myself," Bombalurina is giving it to him like this is the moment where Tugger can show off what he's made of, but he has no experience with girls, so he's just like, he just runs away because he doesn't know what to do. That's kind of how we played it.

[21:03] Jesse Chidera: That's so interesting. I like that. It's kind of like the teenage confident but not actually experienced at all.

[21:09] Jesse Chidera: Yeah, exactly. It's all just for show. Exactly that. Exactly that. Um, the last one I wanted to ask you about is Skimbleshanks. Did you have much of a relationship with Skimbleshanks? Because there's always a little bit of tension between those two cats.

[21:20] Jesse Chidera: There's usually tension between Skimbleshanks and Tugger. Yeah, Skimbleshanks is always so, Skimbleshanks, I feel like is very OCD coded, and Tugger is very ADHD coded. And that's great because I have ADHD, so I feel like they do really clash, but not clash in like a hostile way. It's kind of like Skimbleshanks loves everyone, especially the person who played it in our thing, Gavin, like very loving. He just wants everything to be in order, but if it's not like...

[21:59] Mike Abrams: I mean, because this isn't like stated, but did you ever have any fans or anybody come in and kind of like ask questions or mention about some of the story of like Tugger to you?

[22:29] Jesse Chidera: Yes. Most of the times they would just ask about the relationship of Mr. Mistoffelees and us. That's it. Yeah. I feel like they also asked like the relationship of like MonkaStrap and Rum Tum Tugger, like why they're always spouting and, excuse me, yeah, stuff like that. Just, I usually do get the questions of like the generic stuff.

[22:50] Mike Abrams: Did you play up the Mistoffelees Tugger potential, you know, romance in your cast?

[23:02] Jesse Chidera: Yes, we did. Um, especially during the addressing of cats, um, we would always, me and Mr. Mistoffelees, anytime Old Deuteronomy would mention like salmon paste or any foods, me and Mr. Mistoffelees would give each other a look. I'm like, Hmm, that's your favorite, isn't it? Oh, no. We'd always like give each other a little side eye like, Hmm. So there was always like a little something there.

[23:39] Mike Abrams: Let's jump into some cats rapid fire. So, um, you got to play Old Deuteronomy and Rum Tum Tugger, but if you could go on for one night as any cat, male, female, it doesn't matter just whether you can sing it, dance it. You just, this would be the fun one to do. Which cat do you want to go on for one night?

[23:58] Jesse Chidera: Macavity.

[23:59] Mike Abrams: Do Macavity.

[24:00] Jesse Chidera: Yeah. Absolutely.

[24:01] Mike Abrams: Okay. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats from a personality standpoint?

[24:07] Jesse Chidera: Personality standpoint? Yeah. Like who would you like to hang out with and who would bug you?

[24:11] Mike Abrams: Okay. I can't say Tugger, can I?

[24:14] Jesse Chidera: You can.

[24:15] Mike Abrams: Okay. I'd like to be with Tugger. Um, Oh one. No, no, no, no. I want to change that. Gus.

[24:21] Jesse Chidera: Yeah. So many stories. Brilliant person. Yeah. So fun. Um, who would I not want to? Maybe Rikko Pat. I just feel like anything you say, he'll just read your mind and then just say it to you before you want to say it. And it will just get annoying. A little scary. A little scary that they know too much.

[24:40] Mike Abrams: What is your favorite song from the show?

[24:42] Jesse Chidera: Um, Mr. Mistoffelees.

[24:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[24:45] Jesse Chidera: Yeah. I love it. It's so great. Um, I always like to ask one fun one. So you mentioned that you got some, um, cool art. What was the coolest art you got from, uh, a fan that you, that you remember the coolest art?

[25:00] Jesse Chidera: I got from your fan. There's so many, um, I'll pick one that was one where it was a kind of hybrid of me in real life and me as Tugger. So it had me with the cat ears, but it still had my braids in, but then at the same time I had human teeth, but then I had like shop that I had like canines on all of that. I'd have claws like just a little hybrid. I found that really creative. I have human eyes, but then I'd have a cat eye slits. I think that was my favorite.

[25:35] Mike Abrams: That's really cool. And what percent of the art was related to Mistoffelees and Tugger together?

[25:41] Jesse Chidera: Um, half actually, now that I think about it, I don't think I got a single one where it was just both of us. No, it was either me by myself or me with Tugger or just as the whole company.

[25:57] Mike Abrams: Oh, okay. That's if I'm correct. Yeah. If I'm remembering correctly, if you get to do it again in the U.S. or the probably even the UK, you're going to end up with some Tugger Mistoffelees fan art. It's very common.

[26:10] Jesse Chidera: Um, okay. This is now obviously one of the most important questions. This whole show is dedicated to why I don't think Grizabella is the right choice, but I want to hear from you, Jesse, who's your jellicle choice and why?

[26:23] Jesse Chidera: I have actually thought about this on my walk to the gym and I would have to say it's Macavity.

[26:30] Mike Abrams: Macavity.

[26:31] Jesse Chidera: Macavity. Because if you think about it, he has all the attributes of the jellicle cat, of all the jellicle cats, like he's charismatic. That's how, how he was able to like swoon Bombalurina, Demeter. He has the charismatic kind of like MonkaStrap, he's, you know, energetic, he has telepathy, he's telepathic because he was able to like control all the cats, like mind, uh, mind control them to take away Old Deuteronomy. Like he looks so sneaky, he's cunning, he's strong physically, he beats up MonkaStrap, it takes the whole tribe to get rid of him. He just, I feel like if he didn't go crazy, he would be the perfect jellicle leader because he just has all those attributes. I like, I was also thinking about this, like maybe he's the villain because that's the role he was given, kind of like Elphaba in Wicked.

[27:25] Mike Abrams: Hmm. I like that. I like that. He's not bad. He was, he was good at heart, but he was told, yeah, like I love the Elphaba comparison. He's gotta, he's gotta play this part. And so in your scenario, what's, what's the Heaviside Layer?

[27:43] Jesse Chidera: The Heaviside Layer, it's real life. Maybe I see, there was this theory that I really, really connected to, to the junkyard being purgatory, the space between heaven and hell. And Old Deuteronomy is the one who decides who gets to get reborn to be, to come back into the human realm as a cat because Old Deuteronomy is one of the only people who have a connection to the actual human realm because he comes out of the audience. So he's able to bring one of the cats back to, you know, planet earth. So I feel like that's what the Heaviside Layer is. It's earth.

[28:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So I've heard this theory before. Is that something discussed during rehearsals or is that something that kind of comes up over the course of touring?

[28:30] Jesse Chidera: Yeah, it's something that wasn't discussed in the rehearsals, but it was something that, you know, we discussed with our company members and yeah, some of the family just like trying to figure out what happens after Grizabella dies.

[28:43] Mike Abrams: Yeah. The purgatory one's really interesting because it's, it's a little dark, but it's, it is, I mean, it does, it does kind of fit that nature of like, you're, you're the, the reborn is to not just be reborn, it's to leave and go to the next step while you're sitting in the purgatory. That's, that's the next thing. And so you are picking who's the most worthy. And in that case, I kind of like the Macavity angle because you're saying they actually were good. They had a lot of good for them and, but they were, they were forced to be evil and they played their role really well. So this is actually their opportunity to now go start a new life.

[29:20] Jesse Chidera: Absolutely. There's this, there's this moment where I really do feel sorry for Macavity. It's after he's injured and all the Jellicles get the courage to send him off and you just really see the vulnerability, you kind of like, you see what's behind the evil laughs and all that. It's just a scared cat running away from a tribe who rejected him and then he gets the electricity and that's, it's just so sad because in a way that's his only way to get away from the situation that he got himself into to electrocute himself, to get everyone to leave him alone. You don't know if that killed him or if he will come back again. You don't know, but it's just another, it's just a scared stray cat at that point. And I feel like if Old Deuteronomy saw that, he would have picked Macavity.

[30:10] Mike Abrams: I like this defense. Did you ever discuss this with your cast or is this, or is this a, because you're coming on this show, you had to think through an answer?

[30:19] Jesse Chidera: The latter.

[30:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay. Uh, if then I love the Macavity Elphaba comparison. So who's the Glinda for, for Macavity then?

[30:27] Jesse Chidera: I just want to, I haven't thought about that, Glinda, um, it wouldn't be Grizabella. Um. Maybe, maybe early Grizabella, but not, not current Grizabella. Yeah. Maybe early Grizabella. Maybe MonkaStrap, maybe, because he is kind of the opposite of Macavity, hence why they have the fight. So maybe it would be MonkaStrap. Okay. He's the reason why, so maybe because Macavity was always supposed to be the, you know, the leader. MonkaStrap kind of felt like it was his birthright. So you know, he, maybe he, I don't know, put something in Macavity's milk, poisoned him or something.

[31:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah.

[31:12] Jesse Chidera: All right. So maybe, I think instead of Wicked for good, the second Wicked, we're going to get Cats for good. We're going to get a part two of the 2019 movie and yeah, it's going to be centered around Macavity.

[31:24] Mike Abrams: Absolutely. That's the one. I love it. Um, this has been super fun. Um, how can people stay in touch with you and what you're doing in your career and what's next?

[31:34] Jesse Chidera: Yes. Um, what's next? Um, you just have to stay tuned. So for my Instagram, uh, that would be jesse_chid. I'm very active on that.

[31:46] Mike Abrams: Awesome. We will link that and tag that and can follow along for all the cool stuff I'm sure you're going to do in your, uh, long career that's ahead of you. Super excited. Thank you so much. This has been great.

[31:57] Jesse Chidera: Thanks for coming on.

[31:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Thanks for coming on and sharing some new theories. Um, it's always fun to hear different ideas and different things. So I, I'm excited to, I'm going to be thinking about this Bustopher Jones abandoned theory probably way, way more today than I would like to admit, but that's always what I love about this show is getting something new.

[32:14] Jesse Chidera: Yeah. And it's a brilliant show. There's so many different ways of, uh, the, you know, seeing the show, there's different ways that you can, I can't even find the word, um, wait, cut this part out, uh, different ways that you can.

[32:27] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[32:28] Jesse Chidera: Yeah. There's different ways that you can interpret the show and that's the, that's the special part about it. Really?

[32:34] Mike Abrams: I love it. Wow. This has been so much fun. Thank you again. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died podcast breakdown to Catsash V. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any podcast platform, and all social media at The Wrong Cat Died or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.