This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. She's currently going up to the Heaviside Lair eight times a week all over Europe and the international tour right now. And I had the privilege of seeing her incredible Grizabella performance in Frankfurt not that long ago. So I'm excited to have her here while this is all fresh in her mind. So welcome, Lucy May Barker, and thank you for joining me.

[0:38] Lucy May Barker: Hello, thank you for having me. I'm buzzing. I'm fangirling. I, as I've just said, have listened to like, probably 50, 60 episodes of this to actually be on it is mega.

[0:50] Mike Abrams: I love it. We chatted actually, when you were on the first part of the international tour when you were in China, and you were like, Oh, I'll do it. And then you like immediately signed another contract and started rehearsals and tech and everything. And I was like, this was never gonna work until now. So now we got to go and it's more fun, too, because I got to see your performance. Yeah, because I got to actually see you perform as Grizabella, which was super fun. And we'll get to that and all your theories that we kind of tease before the show when I got to meet you. But I want to start actually with your cat's history. Because you've now done this. I mean, it's been one kind of long run, but it's been marked as twice in the lore fandom pages of stuff.

[1:29] Lucy May Barker: The cat's wiki, the famous cat's wiki.

[1:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah, the cat's famous. So what was your introduction to the show, though? Were you super knowledgeable about it before you were cast?

[1:39] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, so actually, this show was the first show I ever saw, the first musical I ever saw. Ever saw.

[1:47] Lucy May Barker: So this is like major for me. I was eight. And my parents, I'd kind of just got into like, my little like local theatre school, like that was my hobby. And my mom and dad said, Okay, for Christmas this year, instead of us getting you a, you know, a present, a physical present, let's go to London, so you can see a show. And we went to the Leicester Square TKTS booth. And they were like, Okay, we've got this show, this show, this show, cats, this show, this show. They were like, What do you want to see? I was like cats.

[2:27] Lucy May Barker: So this wasn't like premeditated. You just were there and you had a laundry list of a TKTS booth, which is that I don't think that's still there. Because I was just I well, my hotel was there when I was right before I saw you.

[2:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I didn't think it was still there. But I was having a conversation the other day. And apparently it is. So maybe it's like, hidden in some sort of like cat style junkyard.

[2:47] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you and you chose cats, because did you know anything about it? Or just because it's like, I'm eight and cat sounds more fun than Les Mis.

[2:56] Lucy May Barker: Literally that. Yeah. Like choosing something that I recognize in the world, cats. So I love it. So you see it as an eight year old.

[3:06] Lucy May Barker: Yeah. And I have this, I know you have, I know you have lots of thoughts and feelings on this show. But as an eight year old, I still, you know, very, very clearly in my memory, can, and I sat on the on the edge as well. I was I was sat in an aisle seat. And I remember this orange, white and orange cat coming up to me so closely, I guess in the opening. And then when we opened the show in Shenzhen in China, Hazel Baldwin, who plays Jenny Anydots, when we when she first came out in costume, I was like, I think it was you. I think you were the cat who came up to me when I was eight. So yeah, I was just mesmerized and hooked, hooked on theater from that point. So cats changed everything for me.

[4:06] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Who did you want to play when you were eight years old?

[4:10] Lucy May Barker: I wanted to play Bombalurina. Or I fancied her. I'm not sure which it was. Very lesbian lord. Did I fancy her or do I want to be her?

[4:21] Mike Abrams: Was this the aha moment for you at eight years old?

[4:23] Lucy May Barker: Yes, very that. And yeah, but then I unfortunately realized that I couldn't dance as I got older, or, you know, at the most I can move. Of musical theater performers, you know, the ones who can't really dance, we go, Oh, I'm a mover. So I'm a mover, not a dancer.

[4:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[4:45] Lucy May Barker: And it's pretty, it's a pretty solid requirement that you can dance, I think, for 95% of the cast of Cats.

[4:49] Mike Abrams: For sure. Yeah.

[4:53] Lucy May Barker: So, I mean, I don't think I dared to dream that I would be Grisabella. And then when the audition came through, I was like, Oh, well, A, it was, Oh, I'm that old now that I can play Grisabella. The ingenue days are over. And B, it was like, Oh, wow, this, this. Yeah, this could actually be a thing. And I sang Memory in the Kitchen. And then thought, Yeah, all right, I'll go for it.

[5:22] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. And so when you got cast, was it like, did you call your parents and like, Mom, Dad, this is your fault? Because you took me to the West End.

[5:32] Lucy May Barker: Yes. I mean, literally.

[5:33] Lucy May Barker: This is why I'm here now.

[5:34] Lucy May Barker: Yeah. And a full circle. And truly, as I got older, I thought, Oh, I'll just never be in Cats. It's a really special show. And I continued to watch the VHS all throughout my life. And then, of course, it's online, whatever. But that VHS, I think, is a real moment for so many people in musical theatre, because it was a really accessible piece of musical theatre that was really mainstream. And yeah, so yeah, it's been amazing to do the show and to actually be in a show that I never thought I could possibly be in.

[6:14] Mike Abrams: I think what's cool about Cats, and this got brought up in one of the Broadway cons I went to many years ago, and one of the other amazing podcasts on our network, I forget which one was actually doing it, but they hosted this question in a game. And the idea was that if you could play throughout your career in a show, what show would you pick? And there's a couple different ones people have said. And then someone went in and was like, Cats, 100% Cats. And then they walk through, because you can do Cats. You can be a kitten in the beginning, and you can dance. And then you can be maybe someone of the teens, and then you can play Grizabella, or there's Gus. And so there's such a wide range of ages. You can play Cats almost at any point in your career.

[7:01] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, you can. The amazing Gavin Eden, who you saw as Skimble Shanks, I think he started as Mongo Jerry with a Mistoffelees cover. And obviously now he's Skimble, and he covers Gus Boss. And he's incredible in that role. And I actually messaged him when he last went on for it and said, I cannot wait to still be doing Cats with you in 30 years time. Because of course, Grizabella is brilliant, because I can probably play it now for, I want to say a good 30 years, 40 years.

[7:38] Mike Abrams: Oh, yeah. Well, and when you think about Gus, the 1998 movie you mentioned, Patrick Mills, I think, Sir Patrick Mills, who is it? He was at the end of his life, he was old and actually pretty sick, I believe, when they filmed that. And they brought a real guy. Now, he didn't do Buster Freedon, it wasn't a bus Gus track, it was just a Gus track. But you can do some of these roles for a long time.

[8:03] Lucy May Barker: Yeah. I think it's a show that a lot of people come back to because your life informs the way that you play these characters. And I do think it's quite individual in that sense, because usually you play a role and then it's time, the chapter's closed. But yeah, like you say, you can keep coming back to it. It's a very, very special show. I fly the Cats flag a lot, because as I'm sure you've probably had lots of conversations with people that go, I don't get it. I don't understand it. Like, what's the story? And I'm like, no, you do. I need to sit you down and explain it to you. It's a wider commentary.

[8:45] Lucy May Barker: It's like a wider kind of light on humanity. I mean, we'll get to this again. We're gonna be here hours.

[8:54] Mike Abrams: We're getting there in a second. What's funny about you saying that is normally now when I go, I've still only seen the show live a handful of times, which surprises people with how much I know about the show. And one of my favorite things to do when I am in the theater is like at intermission, is just to listen to people around me and kind of be like, what do you need me to answer for you? I can probably fill in any blank. And I couldn't do that in Frankfurt, because everyone around me was speaking German. So I was sitting there. Thankfully, Dane was sitting next to me. So I was sitting there and I was like, I normally would be like, okay, I can explain what just happened here. I can explain this. And I was like, I have no idea what you're saying. So it was a very fun experience to kind of see that. I wish it was in German, because it would have been more fun for me to see it in a different language. But I know you're doing...

[9:40] Lucy May Barker: There has been a German production, right?

[9:42] Lucy May Barker: There's been a lot.

[9:43] Lucy May Barker: Yeah. It's in like a million languages.

[9:46] Lucy May Barker: Oh, I have vinyl records in probably at least four languages. And I have some less acquired and more Macavity-ish ways of some other productions in other languages that have been shared with me.

[10:03] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, slime tutorials. Some slime tutorials.

[10:06] Lucy May Barker: It's just audio. And a lot of them feel like they're actually recorded. I think they were professionally recorded in some way. Or maybe they were bootlegs. I don't know. But they're interesting in Dutch and a couple other languages. And so it's fun to see that and hear that. Before we get into the lore, I want to hear a little bit about the first stop, your first time singing Memory on stage, because you're somewhere in China at this point, right?

[10:31] Lucy May Barker: Yes, in Shenzhen.

[10:32] Mike Abrams: What is that experience like?

[10:35] Lucy May Barker: When I walked on to stage, because of course, as you will know, the Grizz track is sparse. She's on, you know, she's on for 20 minutes max. And there's lots of downtime offstage. And, you know, you suck yourself up, you keep your voice ready. You know, I love going into company office and having a chat. But, you know, usually a character in a musical will have a build up of thoughts on stage to sing, you know, the number. You've usually had a good bit of, you know, musical hit of foreplay to get you there. But you're on and then you're singing it within 30 seconds. So absolute terror. But of course, the brilliant thing is that it's what Grizz is feeling. So you just tap into it. It's like she's going there.

She's been trying to muster up this energy to kind of give her final plea. And it would, she's terrified, but she's also determined and she's also ready to do it. So it's just channeling all of those very real feelings to, you know, hopefully give a very real moment. And with touring, you know, sometimes it's really tiring and you're getting used to new air and new water and a new building and new dust and pollen. So, you know, you have all of these different experiences, all of which actually you can really draw on. You know, sometimes I'm absolutely starving. I'm ready for my dinner, but she would be really hungry, you know?

[12:26] Mike Abrams: True. Yeah, yeah. So you're thinking about that. I love that. I've also noticed, I love that some of your stories are like right before or even intermissions. Like, hold on. I was, we were trying to figure out the time to record this and you were, I didn't realize because the time difference that it was like mid show and you're like, be right back going to the Heaviside Lair. And I'm like, is this, are you about to walk on stage? And like, yeah. I'm like, all right. Well, you can reply in like a couple of hours. I'm fine, you know?

[12:54] Lucy May Barker: Yeah. I'm not precious about, you know, some people really are just, and I'm sure there's going to be some roles that you have to remain in the zone, but it's practice, isn't it? The more you do something, the more efficient you become at kind of getting in the zone for that moment. But you know, it's, and also it's really important, I think, to also still have a really good time. I know some people that play this role are, you know, are so in it and they're like, oh, it's so lonely and it's so, and of course that's valid for each individual's experience. But, you know, it's important, I think, to your, it's such a, it's such a moment. The song is such a moment and it's heartbreaking in so many ways. And her story is just heartbreaking in so many ways. So, you know, you've got to have a laugh surrounding it else you, you know, you get, you get in your head, I think.

[13:48] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And especially when you're doing it.

[13:50] Lucy May Barker: Yeah.

[13:51] Mike Abrams: Three times a week.

[13:52] Lucy May Barker: Yeah. But it's interesting. It's interesting, because I really do let my own life and the things that I have thought about or considered or experienced in the day, I really do let them kind of inform my performance. Because, you know, you use certain things, or at least I do.

[14:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[14:13] Lucy May Barker: So, it's really funny, like, sometimes if a certain thing has happened or whatever, we kind of, we will have a laugh, like Isabel, who plays the white cat, Victoria. Sometimes we'll have a conversation about something and then she'll go, oh, memory's gonna be good tonight. She knows, it's like, all right, this was a challenging day.

[14:35] Lucy May Barker: Going to have a little bit more emotion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really funny. Yeah, what the opposite days where it's like, oh, you have to work tonight to give them.

[14:43] Lucy May Barker: Well, yeah, you just kind of you draw on, you know, think of all your past traumas basically, but no, I think it's I love it. When something new has happened, which then will inform that performance and all performances going forward, you get that little bit of flavor, that little bit of seasoning, you know, it's, it's, it's brilliant. And, you know, then sometimes, you know, on a random evening, you'll just have that one little thought that pops into your head just before you do it. And it's like, oh, wow, I never thought that this certain thing would be informing this moment here. It's, yeah, it's mega to repeat something night after night after night. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's so interesting. And especially when it's so iconic.

[15:33] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, you know, it's almost a little bit of insanity.

[15:35] Lucy May Barker: Like, you know, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity, I think.

[15:42] Lucy May Barker: Yeah. And you're doing eight times a week.

[15:43] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, baby. Sometimes nine.

[15:44] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's true. Okay. I've been promised by you lore beyond lore and conversations and theories. So where do you want to start?

[15:57] Lucy May Barker: Where is there to start? Okay, I know you are team Grizabella is not the right cat.

[16:00] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[16:01] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, the clue is in the title. The clue is in the title. Yeah. Oh, God, where do we start? I mean, I've been thinking about this, obviously, knowing that this is coming up. I was like, I really need to get my lore in order.

[16:23] Mike Abrams: But let me ask you some questions.

[16:24] Lucy May Barker: Okay, yeah, start with some Grizabella questions. We'll get to the like, the Jellicle choice at the end. But let me start with where do you think Grizabella went? Like when she left the tribe? Where'd she go? Where do you where are you going?

[16:37] Lucy May Barker: Okay, I actually think it's good old fashioned misogyny from the tribe. I think Grizz and Macavity have this kind of big, like toxic relationship moment. And it's all, you know, I know that there's a lot of talk about perhaps she's gone and done like sex work for him. You know, there's this, you know, there's these big storylines, but essentially, she has been kind of ostracized and outcast, I think, because of her association with Macavity.

[17:07] Mike Abrams: Okay, and she wasn't associated and then kind of started doing some stuff with him.

[17:13] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, we get famous.

[17:21] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, yeah. Maybe like, Grizabella only fans moment, you know, like, she essentially made maybe one questionable choice, which led to a downfall of some kind. And we just, this is the thing about cats. We see this, we see it happen everywhere. We see people getting cancelled, like for one stupid moment, and essentially, Grizabella has been cancelled by the tribe.

[17:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[17:51] Lucy May Barker: And, you know, it's not, it's not necessary, it's not her fault, you know, we all make bad decisions at some point, you know, and I think, again, the wider sense of it is that it's everybody else who's got on the bandwagon. So one person has said one thing about Grizabella, and then, sorry, I mean, cat, one cat has said, you know, and it's just escalated and escalated and escalated. So all we know is that she is now at the point of, she's been totally ostracized. You know, you compare it to modern day and it's like, you know, she's been kicked out of her flat. Nobody's talking to her. She's lost her job. You know, it's that kind of demise, I guess.

[18:41] Mike Abrams: And then before we know it, she's, you know, she's not got anywhere to live. She's not got any access to money through any means other than, you know, potentially what's going on with Macavity. And yeah, before you know it, she's in, she's in this horrible old state.

[18:59] Mike Abrams: How have we not cancelled Macavity then?

[19:02] Lucy May Barker: Because of misogyny, because men get away with it.

[19:05] Mike Abrams: I mean, he's broken every human law, like he should be cancelled.

[19:11] Lucy May Barker: But this is age old thing. It's like people love a bad boy, don't they? I'm saying that I'm inverted commas because obviously this is audio. You know, the bad boy kind of flavor, people kind of forgive a bit more. You know, we see again, we see it all the time with celebs who will get like, you know, a DUI. And then before you know it, they've had a rebrand and it's just that they were, you know, they made a mistake. Whereas I do think women have it much harder in terms of their, you know, their kind of outward perception and how and how the wider world will treat them and forgive them. And often they're not forgiven. And Christina hasn't been forgiven.

[19:57] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's a part of the story. I've not really understood in the sense that like, to me, Tugger's that like, bad boy, you kind of, yeah, there's a little bit of stuff, but then it's clearly still loved or rebranded and fine. But Macavity's is evil.

[20:13] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, like an actual criminal kidnapping his father. Like, there's some, there's some, this isn't like playful. Oh, like, this is our, our family member that, you know, gets in, gets in trouble, like maybe has a gambling debt and gets in trouble every once in a while. No, like, this is an actual criminal.

[20:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[20:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[20:43] Lucy May Barker: And no, no big deal. You can stay around, you can hang out, you can torment the people, you could put like, whatever you're doing to Demeter's, we're going to be just okay with.

[20:45] Lucy May Barker: And it's like, but Grizabella has to leave.

[20:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah, 100%. And I think it's that classic thing that happened, classic, she says lightly. But it's that, you know, that thing that happens is that actually Grizabella needed help, not judgment. And the thing is, when people are scared, they don't help as, as often, you know, it's like, they're too scared to help. What's easier is to just group together and judge and to kind of, you know, ignore the situation.

[21:15] Mike Abrams: Which is essentially what's happened to her.

[21:17] Lucy May Barker: Yeah.

[21:18] Lucy May Barker: I think.

[21:19] Mike Abrams: So do you think Grizabella has tried to come back other balls or other years before? Or was this the first time?

[21:25] Lucy May Barker: No, I think so. And I, again, there's lots of debate on this. But I also wonder how much time has passed. You know, is it two years? Is it five years? Is it 10 years? You know, we don't, I don't think it's set in stone necessarily. But I like to think that, you know, it's been a few years.

[21:44] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[21:45] Lucy May Barker: Maybe she tried once before, kind of initially when it all initially happened. And actually, maybe that was the first kind of outpouring of kind of hideousness from the tribe. And maybe this is a few years later, when she's coming back, because I think some of the kittens maybe don't know who she is. It's the first time they've seen her.

[22:10] Mike Abrams: And it's that thing, isn't it, when someone disappears? You know, Grizabella's probably deleted her Instagram. She's not been, you know, she's not posted for a few years.

[22:20] Lucy May Barker: She's offline.

[22:21] Lucy May Barker: She's offline, you know, so she's become a bit of a mystery. And, you know, I say all of this in jest, but I think it is important to kind of make it relevant to today's society.

[22:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[22:37] Lucy May Barker: And I think that is why the show is so successful. Because even if people don't consciously realize that that's why they're connecting with it, it is, you know.

[22:47] Mike Abrams: I think people connect, too, because there's probably one character that personality-wise, you either know somebody like that, or it's you.

[22:57] Lucy May Barker: 100%.

[22:58] Lucy May Barker: There's such a wide range. It's like, you can probably find one that's like, ah, that song, kind of like, and the way they're telling that story is kind of the way I am.

[23:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[23:06] Lucy May Barker: Or it's the opposite. That's my family member or my best friend or whatever. And so you can probably find some point in there that you can relate to.

[23:14] Lucy May Barker: Definitely. And also, like you say, various different points in your life as well.

[23:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[23:20] Lucy May Barker: You can come back to it and see yourself again or see your past self or a part of you that you once recognized or celebrated or was ashamed of.

[23:29] Lucy May Barker: So, you know, it's really interesting in that way. That's why I think telling these stories and kind of delivering these themes in an abstract way, like cats.

[23:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah, as abstract as you can get.

[23:42] Lucy May Barker: As abstract as you can get, but also familiar because, you know, a lot of people know cats.

[23:47] Mike Abrams: True.

[23:48] Lucy May Barker: You know, so it is and it isn't, which is why I think it's just the perfect combination. Yeah, it's just, again, could talk about it forever. We're going to be here hours.

[24:00] Mike Abrams: We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[24:04] Mike Abrams: Let's talk about the relationships that you play on stage, because a lot of Grisabels aren't defined and there's a lot of them that are heavily debated.

[24:15] Lucy May Barker: And so I want to know what relationships your cast is playing or the ones that you've kind of at least leaned into.

[24:21] Lucy May Barker: Okay, so my family tree, I would say, in my opinion, what's the thing that you're supposed to say? Copyright holds no...

[24:32] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. This is not the official word from this production.

[24:36] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, this is not the official opinion of. I think Monkey Strap is my son.

[24:41] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[24:43] Lucy May Barker: I'm very sure of that. And that was something that the gorgeous, gorgeous Sam Brown and I, I think it was like really unspoken.

[24:52] Lucy May Barker: I don't think we ever actually spoke about it, but he very much felt like my son when we were kind of exploring that initially in the rehearsal room with Chrissy, which.

[25:03] Mike Abrams: Wow.

[25:04] Lucy May Barker: Those, you know, that first set of rehearsals when most of us actually were brand new to the show.

[25:12] Lucy May Barker: And for, I think, nearly everyone, I don't actually think there was anyone who who it wasn't, but Cats was, you know, the show.

[25:21] Mike Abrams: It was it was either the show that they wanted to do.

[25:25] Lucy May Barker: There was a lot of people that were like, OK, I can retire now. I've done Cats.

[25:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that was the one. It was the one. Or it was, you know, like me, just really, really special and actually totally unexpected that it would ever be a part of my career.

[25:41] Lucy May Barker: But yeah, there was, there was, I think, Monkey Strap as my son.

[25:47] Lucy May Barker: I mean, what else? I'm trying to think of any other. I mean, I think I feel like that's Grizabella's only family.

[25:55] Lucy May Barker: So a couple of them play into like a Victoria or a Cillabab daughter.

[25:59] Lucy May Barker: Well, I again, this is like a mad theory. This is a mad theory that I came up with.

[26:08] Lucy May Barker: I want to say like in tech, in Dusseldorf, you know, in tech, everyone kind of loses their mind slightly.

[26:16] Lucy May Barker: But I also do play with the idea that we shift timelines and tenses at various points in the show.

[26:26] Mike Abrams: Like I can be convinced of that sometimes, you know, in what way?

[26:32] Lucy May Barker: Tell me more about that.

[26:35] Lucy May Barker: Well, OK, this is a this is a bad theory.

[26:35] Lucy May Barker: No, I love mad theories are my favorite. I'm like outing myself here.

[26:40] Lucy May Barker: So I love this idea that actually Victoria is Grizabella reborn and I shall tell you for why.

[26:52] Lucy May Barker: OK. You know, in the Jellicle Ball that Admetus and Victoria, the white cat lift.

[26:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[27:00] Lucy May Barker: I'm like, OK, we're exploring like sexual awakenings at that moment.

[27:07] Lucy May Barker: You know, it's it's beautiful. It's utterly beautiful.

[27:11] Lucy May Barker: Choreography performed stunningly, which I get to watch every night by Isabella Marco.

[27:18] Lucy May Barker: And I'm like, OK, maybe that lift because it's, you know, it's such a rush.

[27:24] Lucy May Barker: It's such a beauty. It's an amazing moment. And, you know, it's athleticism at its finest.

[27:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[27:30] Lucy May Barker: And I'm like, OK, that's the moment of conception.

[27:36] Mike Abrams: OK, this is like this is like a conception moment.

[27:41] Lucy May Barker: And it's just insane. And then the white cat touch at the end is like that's the new life beginning.

[27:53] Mike Abrams: I'm like, OK, so after you go.

[27:56] Lucy May Barker: Yeah.

[28:01] Lucy May Barker: Be Isabella's.

[28:04] Lucy May Barker: You know, it's insane. You know, I think it's slightly insane. I like that.

[28:07] Lucy May Barker: But, you know, I think it's just because I was watching it so much.

[28:10] Lucy May Barker: And I was like, this is such a an amazing moment.

[28:13] Lucy May Barker: And, you know, Victoria gets preggo. Maybe Victoria gets preggo in that moment.

[28:19] Mike Abrams: So I also think we, you know, we maybe the show can play with with timelines and tenses in the way that.

[28:29] Mike Abrams: I know you've mentioned before, like is the opening the opening or is the opening, you know, is Baby Gris actually Grisabella reborn or is Baby Gris Gris before Grisabella?

[28:42] Lucy May Barker: So, you know, and it also can change its life there.

[28:45] Lucy May Barker: We can kind of change our minds every night on what we want to play, which is exciting.

[28:50] Mike Abrams: I like that theory because I've I've asked a lot of times we only get one ball and we only get one thing.

[28:57] Mike Abrams: And I've had a lot of questions about that of like, is the Jellicle choice a redemption arc every every year?

[29:02] Mike Abrams: Because it's like, oh, if it's Grisabella, like, is there another banished cat that's coming next year and the year after?

[29:08] Mike Abrams: Like, is there or is it a different?

[29:09] Mike Abrams: Welcome back to The Wrong Cat Died. Today, I am thrilled to have Lucy May Barker, who is currently dazzling audiences as Grizabella on the CATS international tour. Lucy, thank you for joining me!

[29:39] Lucy May Barker: Thank you for having me! I'm so excited to be here.

[30:09] Mike Abrams: So, let's dive right in. Can you tell us about your journey with CATS? When did you first see it, and what drew you to the musical?

[30:39] Lucy May Barker: I first saw CATS when I was eight years old in London. I remember being completely mesmerized by the costumes, the music, and the whole atmosphere of the show. It was such a magical experience for me, and I think that’s when my love for musical theatre really began.

[31:09] Mike Abrams: That’s amazing! And now you’re playing Grizabella. What does that role mean to you, and how do you approach it?

[31:39] Lucy May Barker: Grizabella is such a complex character. She’s been through so much, and I think it’s important to portray her with both vulnerability and strength. I try to connect with her emotions and really understand her backstory, which helps me bring authenticity to the role.

[32:09] Mike Abrams: Absolutely. Grizabella’s journey is so poignant. Can you share your thoughts on performing "Memory"? What does that song represent for you?

[32:39] Lucy May Barker: "Memory" is such a powerful song. It’s a moment of reflection for Grizabella, where she confronts her past and her longing for acceptance. When I perform it, I really focus on the emotions behind the lyrics and the connection to the audience. It’s a beautiful moment that resonates with so many people.

[33:09] Mike Abrams: It really does. There are so many theories about Grizabella’s backstory and her relationships with other characters. What are your thoughts on that?

[33:39] Lucy May Barker: I love the theories! There’s so much depth to her character, and I think it’s fascinating to explore her past and how it affects her relationships with the other Jellicles. Whether it’s her connection to Old Deuteronomy or her history with the other cats, there’s a lot to unpack.

[34:09] Mike Abrams: Definitely! And speaking of connections, how do you feel about the audience interaction during the show?

[34:39] Lucy May Barker: I think audience interaction is such a special part of the experience. It creates a unique atmosphere every night. I love when the audience gets involved, whether it’s through laughter or applause. It really enhances the performance and makes it feel like a shared experience.

[35:09] Mike Abrams: That’s a great perspective. If you could choose a Jellicle choice, who would you pick and why?

[35:39] Lucy May Barker: Oh, that’s a tough one! I think I would choose someone like Mistoffelees. He’s such a magical character, and his journey is so uplifting. Plus, his magic brings a lot of joy to the show!

[36:09] Mike Abrams: Great choice! Now, let’s switch gears a bit. What are some of your favorite moments in the show, both on and off stage?

[36:39] Lucy May Barker: I love the moments of camaraderie between the cast. Off stage, we have such a great time together, and that energy translates to the stage. On stage, I really enjoy the ensemble numbers. They’re so vibrant and full of life, and it’s a joy to be part of that.

[37:09] Mike Abrams: That sounds wonderful! And what are you looking forward to in the future of the tour?

[37:39] Lucy May Barker: I’m really excited about visiting new cities and meeting different audiences. Each place has its own vibe, and I can’t wait to share the magic of CATS with more people.

[38:09] Mike Abrams: That’s fantastic! Lucy, thank you so much for sharing your insights and experiences with us today. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show.

[38:39] Lucy May Barker: Thank you for having me! I’ve loved chatting about CATS and Grizabella.

[39:09] Mike Abrams: And to our listeners, be sure to check out Lucy on social media and catch the international tour of CATS. Until next time, keep questioning everything about the Jellicle choice!

[39:39] Lucy May Barker: Bye everyone!

[40:09] Mike Abrams: Bye!

[40:39] ♪ Musical number: "Memory" — performed by Lucy May Barker ♪

[41:09] Mike Abrams: That was beautiful!

[41:39] Lucy May Barker: Thank you!

[42:09] Mike Abrams: And that wraps up our episode.

[42:39] Lucy May Barker: Thanks for listening!

[43:09] Mike Abrams: See you next time!

[43:44] Lucy May Barker: Listen, it's still Griz. It's still Griz. She's tired. She's exhausted. She needs a break. Do you want to be with your son? I mean, yes. But, you know, in the way that, you know, if something kind of awful happened, then when you reach a moment of kind of joy or relief, really all that matters is that moment of joy and relief, right? Of course, you've still got the memory, the memory of everything that's gone before. And you can feel that, you know, physically. But when you experience those moments of joy and relief, when you're truly in that moment, that's all you have, right? That's all that matters in that moment. And I'm just like, Grizabella just needs a break. It's time. She's like, oh, okay.

It's over. This life is over. She's ready to start the new one. I don't think the Heaviside—it's not all over when you get to the Heaviside Layer. Yeah, you're already part of Victoria at this point. Yeah, like, the Heaviside Layer is like a holding room where you get to, like, select your, you know, your next life. Yeah, maybe it's like a choose-your-own-adventure. I think that's an important part of this debate. Because I have—I felt that that was not necessarily the end, but it was the end, like, of Grizabella. And if you're believing that, like, this is now the beginning, essentially, of the next life, then it's a very different question. But my—still my challenge with that is, like, she's going to come back as a new cat in some way and a kitten.

And it's like, well, what about her son and potential family? Like, the family is not going to know her then. Like, they're ending that chapter. It's true. I guess also my question would be, like, do you get to hold on to—as you enter your next life, do you get to hold on to all of that wisdom and all of the things that you've learned and all of your experiences? Is it that thing, I guess, like, you know, when you go, oh, I—deja vu, you know? When you feel like you've experienced something or been somewhere before or met someone before, might do—you know, that changes it, doesn't it? That changes it.

[46:44] Lucy May Barker: For sure. I have heard a couple people claim that Gus isn't the choice because Gus doesn't have another life left. And so, like, if he goes, this is the end. And if that's true, then that theory that he's held all of that—like, because this whole thing about his whole life and wisdom would be over multiple cats kind of type of thing. So, I don't know. I mean, obviously, as I've done 200-plus episodes of this, I also feel like a lot of us and me and the theory and the fans have thought way more about this than anybody on the creative team put thought to that. You know, like, back in the 80s, they weren't thinking about that. They were finishing the show and closing the number. And so, I would love to ask, like, an original creative person if they thought—but my actual belief is they did not spend a single minute thinking about what the Heaviside Layer meant and Reborn and if there's that.

Like, they probably talked more about relationship and do you turn, you know, stage right or stage left and what note to hit here and there. I guess it's making it—I guess it's that responsibility of also—and again, this is with, you know, I would say theater in general. It's really hard because I'm sure, you know, lots of people face this. It's like, okay, we want to make this piece of theater, but also it needs to be commercial enough and wide enough in kind of, you know, in its themes and it's the way that it's delivered and displayed to reach a wider audience. So, it's really interesting because it's like, okay, does it—do I make the exact thing that I want to make or do I have to, you know, widen my thoughts to make it more viable, I guess?

[48:30] Lucy May Barker: Yeah. But I'm—okay, I'm thinking—you've got me in my head. This is great, you and Sheldon. I hope you, like, question your ride today. Why are we not sending Macavity to the Heaviside Layer to, like, refresh? But that's my question, is, like, do they actually—do they get a reset? We don't know. Because why not just go, Macavity, you're off, you know? Get out. Let's protect everyone from Macavity. One of the theories I've struggled with is, what is the criteria and does it change every period? Because part of this belief is that, like, old Deuteronomy did not know you were coming back and was picking Gus or Jenny and then sees your struggle and little memory and decides this is the story this time.

Like, I'm choosing redemption and you need it more than they do, so I'm picking that. And if that's the case, then it's like, what is the actual criteria? And why does it change? And what's happening next time? Because there's a lot of ways to argue for multiple cats, depending on what you believe the choice is based on.

[49:42] Lucy May Barker: Oh, for sure. And I also think what's even more important than the Jellicle choice in this year that we see, obviously, which is the show, what's even more important than that final choice is actually the wider teachings of old Deuteronomy to the tribe, which is stop judging, stop holding this hatred in your heart and learn to accept and understand. And it's my absolute favorite moment to play because I think of what is going on in the world and what has been going on since the dawn of time. But we're in this moment where actually there is so much hate. There is so much hate. There's groups of people that have been kind of pitted against each other. And we have this kind of hysteria of hatred for certain people and certain groups of people.

And ultimately, it's horrible for the people holding the hate. Like, it's not nice carrying around your experience of your life. It's not nice day to day because you are so full of hatred and nastiness and venom at these people who actually you probably don't even know you've never met. And you don't know anything about anything about their story. And ultimately, it's that for me. It's the lyric. If you touch me, you'll understand what happiness is. If you accept me, if you just see me and hear me in a way that is not based on your own opinions that have been founded in God knows what, then you'll experience a nicer time. You'll experience a nicer life, not just me.

[51:40] Mike Abrams: I agree with this 100%. I 100% agree with this. I think it's the most important part of this show. It's a critical teaching of the show, where we split on this. And this is the key moment for me, is that after you sing that song, and you deliver that message, exactly what you just said, accept me, bring me back. Instead of saying, amazing, let's coexist, let's learn from you. I will do that. I want to do that. I believe that. We're like, all right, bye. We're gonna kill you. We agree. Off you go, darling. Off you go. You could argue the reward, that that's the thing. But I'm like, I want you to spend the year. You can be next year's choice. Go next year. I want you to spend one year where it's like, yes, we do.

We need to learn from you. We do need to accept you. We do need to bring you back. We need to get over whatever the hatred part of the canceling, whatever happened. That redemption arc is there. I do agree. It's valid. You can't get rid of that part of the story. That is the most, to me, one of the most critical parts of Cats, and you can't get rid of it. But that's not my argument. My argument is right after that.

[53:37] Lucy May Barker: Okay, I raise you. Go, go, go, go. Right after that. I want you there. I want the message to be, yeah, great, stay. Okay, I raise you that actually, because of their past choices, because of their behavior, they almost, they have to do the work themselves. Grizabella is not there to educate them. They have to do that work themselves from that moment. She gets a relief. She's had enough. They have to do that work themselves from that point. They've had that moment of realization. And from that point, it's their responsibility to go and do the work. It's not Grizabella's.

[54:44] Mike Abrams: Okay, okay. That's good, isn't it? That's good. It's pretty good. But I can tell you the other option is this is definitely a cult. We can just all drink the Kool-Aid.

[54:50] Lucy May Barker: It's true. I mean, I do. Eight times a week. Love it, mate. Yeah. We can all go together. We'll just all send one big tire. I'll hop up there.

[54:57] Mike Abrams: It's true. It's true. Oh, I love it. I love it. The theories, the laws, the, oh, it's endless. My goal is that when you go on stage next, and you get to that point where you're starting to walk to that tire, you're like, oh, should I stay? I just want you to have that one moment where you're thinking about it. I mean, you're still going to go because you don't get in trouble. You still do your job.

[55:27] Lucy May Barker: Hey, listen, the intrusive thoughts and that kind of the madness that is live theater is that you do, and I've talked about this with loads of my gorgeous colleagues, is that you kind of go, I'm just stood there on the stage. They've trusted me that I'm going to do what we've rehearsed. But there is those moments of madness where you kind of go, I could just do anything. And obviously, I'm not going to do, disclaimer, I'm absolutely going to do what we rehearsed. But there is that kind of moment of kind of madness as your, you know, as it should, your imagination should be continuing to further the story in many, many ways. It should be living and breathing in your, you know, in your body. But yeah, I mean, imagine, I just...

[56:06] Mike Abrams: Every specific regional theater being like, you're last night. What's stopping you? Like, you know, you're on stage. What's stopping you from just walking up there?

[56:13] Lucy May Barker: It's wild. Getting to the top of the tire and going, no, it's not me. I want to stay.

[56:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Brilliant. Brilliant.

[56:22] Lucy May Barker: Oh, this has been so fun. How can people stay in touch with you, social media? And I mean, we'll link where all the stops that you have and hopefully more to come.

[56:30] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, I'm just at Lucy May Barker on everything. So yeah, say hi. Love it.

[56:36] Mike Abrams: Well, we'll link that. And then if you're right now, you're in Austria?

[56:41] Lucy May Barker: Austria in Linz. Yeah, in Austria. We're here for another couple of weeks. And then we're doing Cologne and Berlin, which I'm so excited about because I've never been to Berlin and have always wanted to go. And then I think Zurich. And then that's the end of this leg, which by the time this comes out, I think that's about where we'll be at. I think there's a couple others.

[56:58] Mike Abrams: Oh, there are. They are. They're on the website. I think we're doing... Don't, don't get me into trouble. I think I saw Portugal and Spain.

[57:06] Lucy May Barker: Yes, we're doing, and I think Greece is now online. We're doing Athens and Thessaloniki, which is unbelievable. And having done Mamma Mia for five years to actually now go to Greece in a show after having pretended I've been in Greece for five years will be really exciting.

[57:20] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. Well, and that also explained why I really wanted to see the show in German, and I explained why I was in English, because it's like, well, you're going to a lot of non-German speaking countries as well. And so you need a different version.

[57:30] Lucy May Barker: Well, this has been so fun. I hope that next time you, next performance or next couple of performance, you just have that little inkling of, hey, maybe I should stay, maybe I should stay, and then you're going to still go fly.

[57:41] Lucy May Barker: I am. I've got to say I'm going to have to do what's been rehearsed, but in my mind, in my mind, not that they will ever know, but you'll know, and that's the point.

[57:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I'll know. And if you get a note, if you ever get a note, you know, from the team, you can be like, that was Mike's fault.

[57:54] Lucy May Barker: Yeah, I will. I'm blaming you. I'm blaming you.

[57:57] Mike Abrams: Please, please, send all the notes my way. And then please send me that recording. I want to hear the Macavity.

[58:03] Lucy May Barker: I will. I will. I really, really will.

[58:06] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Well, this has been so fun, so thank you for coming on.

[58:10] Lucy May Barker: Thank you so much for having me. This has been absolutely amazing. And actually, I listen to so many Broadway Podcast Network shows, so to actually be on one is mega.

[58:19] Mike Abrams: Ah, well, I'll send you to some other, well, hopefully get you on a couple other shows, too.