This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of CATS Astrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He has a very long history with CATS, but most recently he was Macavity in the 2025 Shawnee Playhouse Production. So welcome, Erik Simon, and thank you for joining me.

[0:29] Erik Simon: Thank you so much for having me, Mike.

[0:32] Mike Abrams: We've talked for years at this point about different things you've done throughout the city and things related to CATS. And so I was really pumped when I saw you got cast in the Shawnee Playhouse. But I want to go back because I want to know where your fandom of it started. Because obviously you've been in it a couple times and had some other things you've done with the show, which we'll get into. But when was your first true CATS fandom moment?

[0:55] Erik Simon: So my introduction to CATS was when I was very young. My grandfather was born in London in the Edwardian period, and he really loved the T.S. Eliot poems. So I was introduced to the Book of Poems and also this tape that he recorded off of his vinyl record of the original London recording of CATS. So I was absorbing that, of course, and very enthralled as a four-year-old. And then my parents, it all really kicked off getting to see the show at the Winter Garden Theatre on stage, in those seats. I don't know if you know about in the Winter Garden, they had these seats that were on the stage. So they really come up to you. So I'm four years old, you're seeing that show. I think this was the first experience of having, like, I had seen little plays here and there at the children's theatres.

But having that fourth wall break and being so, you know, really the first immersive production I had ever seen, it was just mind-blowing. And that really, you know, lit a spark in me getting excited about theatre, getting excited about dance. But really, like, the costumes were really exciting for me. So I was, like, making my own little costumes out of random things I had around. And I was just crawling around the house with a tail stuck in the back of my pants. I think I'll have a photo. I'll send you that. But yeah, it was just very liberating, really free. I think just the creativity of it. I just, I don't know, I really loved media that had, like, anthropomorphic animals. I really connected with just the physicality, especially.

I think I was really entranced by just the way that they moved. It was just so hypnotic and just so interesting. And I loved playing around with that in my own body and how that felt. And so that was something that really drew me to the show, especially. And then, you know, as the internet became available, that's when I started to dive into kind of the fandom. So this was really the early days, you know, where we had, like, Angel Fire and Geocities. We had this thing called the Jellicle Chat. I think it was back in, like, 1999 or 2000, which was this very, like, old school chat room and the message boards and everything. And so there wasn't, like, there was a fandom, but I think the way that the internet is now, it's just, it's everywhere and all over the place.

And you can connect with so many more people, especially because the fandom has grown. But yeah, I was one of those kids. I think there's always this joke in the fandom. Like, you know, I was, I got into theater and I became friends with all these theater kids. But, like, CATS was always the butt of a joke for the longest time. And so I was, like, that kid that really liked CATS. And so I would, you know, connect with people online because not a lot of my friends were into the show. But I did, I was in a chat room once. And, you know, this can be dangerous, obviously, for younger people. But I was talking to someone and it turned out we lived in the same town. And we went to the same synagogue.

And we ended up going to high school together and being in a Shakespeare troupe together. So we were, like, it was so great to have, like, a hardcore buddy that I could, like, geek out to the show with. And she had, we would, like, burn CDs for each other. And she had, I still have it on the Paris cast. And so having that recording, because back then it was really hard to get the imports and stuff. So we would just exchange a lot of just our CATS geekery and general, like, musical theater geekery. So it was really nice.

[5:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I love that. It's, it's honestly refreshing to hear that your actual start was more of the poems and, like, the stories and the music before seeing it. Because that's not actually a lot of times where I hear that a lot of people, it's like, they saw a version of it. And that was the beginning of it. And you had this, like, introduction to it. So you're almost like indoctrinated in before you saw it. And then when you saw it, it brought, it brought to life probably for you in a different way, which is really cool.

[5:46] Erik Simon: Yeah, I think it was, it was really interesting listening to especially the London cast recording is, you know, kind of, it's vastly different from what the general show is, as we know. So I was listening to these voices. And I always thought Mistoffelees, like, played by Wayne Sleep, I thought he was a woman, and he was just singing about Jenny, she was singing about this cat, Jenny, any dots. So I didn't know that. You know, I thought they were singing about the cats. I didn't think they were the cats. So it was really exciting seeing the show because back then, this was like the early 90s. So there wasn't a lot of imagery around the show. And I don't think I saw any of you know, the photos of costumes or anything about it.

So when I was heavily listening to the recording, I was imagining people just singing about these cats, not that they were the actual cats. And but yeah, the connection to the poems to like I said, with my grandfather, you know, he was living in London at the time that these poems were written. And so it was a really wonderful way for me to kind of connect with him in a world that, you know, I, you know, wasn't present for. And yeah, it was very nostalgic for him to be, you know, to be listening to these poems with me.

[7:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's another layer for sure. That's, again, like, a lot of times it's a there's something that usually draws people to the show, whether it's the costumes, the music, seeing it at an age where it's like, it was very PC for me, it was a story or lack thereof, like that, that kind of draws you into it. So you had this like, kind of personal connection, which was really cool. But I want to fast forward, because now you, you did an early amateur production. So tell me who you played? What like, when was this? Like, tell us about that part of the story.

[7:51] Erik Simon: So in 2005, it was my senior year of high school. And I was accepted into the Greater Hartford Academy of the Arts as a theater major. And so I was what you would call a first year senior. So there were lots of people in the school who would start, you know, you know, their freshman year or their sophomore year. But I was going in just to be there for one year. And the previous year, they had done Chorus Line with, I believe it was Carolyn Kirsch, who was in the original cast of Chorus Line. She was one of the cut dancers, and I think she might have been a cover swing. But they did the original choreography for Chorus Line. And they always did these shows that no other school would do. And the year before that, they did Evita.

So it was at the time they were doing these shows that kids didn't normally do. This was a very competitive high school with a lot of super talented kids. And there was an instructor there named Billy Johnstone, who was in the closing Winter Garden cast. I think he was there from 97 to 2000. He was also, he was Coraco Pat in that production. And he did Mungo Jerry in the tour prior to that. So he was an instructor there. And he was really pushing to get CATS into the school. And somehow, you know, I think he contacted the really useful group, because at the time, schools weren't doing the show because it was too challenging, and it was going to be really expensive to do it really well. And people just didn't think that, you know, young performers could dance this show or perform the show.

And so he really pushed for it. And he was able to get the licensing to do it as the first amateur production in North America. So that was huge. It was incredibly competitive, the audition process. I made it into callbacks for Demeter. And I ended up being cast as Demeter's understudy and as the offstage chorus. And I had a little onstage cameo as one of the Cavities henchmen. But getting to do that show at 17 years old was absolutely, it was an absolute dream. Even though I didn't ultimately get to perform on stage, we got to learn all the original Jillian Lynn choreography and staging. They were doing, you know, they did all that. We did Girl Tiger, you know, which is ugly, you know, but we did.

We did it all. We did Peace and Politicals, the full ball, you know, they did the lifts, they did everything. And it was a really remarkable experience. And Billy really pushed all of us. And it was a very, like a very, he wanted it to be as authentic of an experience as possible to what it's like to rehearse for and to be in a real, you know, professional production.

[10:59] Mike Abrams: Yeah. How many performances do you do in an amateur run like that?

[11:04] Erik Simon: We did six.

[11:06] Mike Abrams: Six. That's like two weekends?

[11:07] Erik Simon: Yeah.

[11:08] Mike Abrams: Wow. I think it's so interesting to see and hear about that. I know there's a civic theater that just did four performances or five performances. And to the time and effort that goes into putting together and rehearsing a show of this level of difficulty, I mean, I guess all shows have some level of this as well. It's really always blows my mind when it's not, you know, four weeks, six weeks, or a minimum, if not, you know, a tour or going on for, you know, as long as it can.

[11:44] Erik Simon: Yeah. I mean, the rehearsal process was almost four months long. We started, I think, in either January or February, and then the show went up in May. So we were rehearsing almost every day after school. We were, you know, in the shop working on, you know, we had to do shop hours. So I was hand sewing. We were doing the knee pads, and I sewed my own unitard for the hench cat costume. And, you know, the people were working on the sets, we had the floating tire. So there was so much time, energy, and even money. I think the school, like, went into debt because of the show, because they spent so much between the costumes and the set, and everyone just dedicating so much time and energy. So doing six shows really was like, I feel like we should have done a whole month that way. But it was a really wonderful experience to be immersed in that for so many months. And I was just geeking out every second.

[12:44] Mike Abrams: I want to fast forward to the Shawnee Playhouse, because then, you know, you've done some other things, which we'll come back to. But this is now another professional version, and you're playing Macavity. And you did something in that production, I thought that was really interesting, as I met with Naomi and had her on the show, is that you had a different Grizabella every night. And there were multiple different, you know, there was a male identifying Grizabellas, which I had not heard. And I think that that's such a cool angle and way to do it. I'm, like, fascinated for the Grizabellas, because I'm like, I can't imagine doing all that work for just one evening or one matinee. But I also kind of love the idea from a storytelling standpoint of, like, this person who's not in your tribe and coming back in, as a performer, you all had somebody truly coming back in for one night, that it probably made the show even more, like, the story part more authentic, right?

Because it's like, it truly is happening in a way that otherwise you're pretending, you know, night four, the Grizabella comes back, and, you know, it's the same Grizabella. But you truly had a different.

[13:47] Erik Simon: Absolutely. It was a very unique thing, Madge, the executive director at the theatre. I think that was her idea. It was very innovative, I think, because we did get such an organic experience when they walked out on the stage. Maybe we met them backstage, you know, changing area. I had a lot of quick changes, so I was in the area that usually the Grizzlies were hanging out in, so I got to spend a little bit more time with them. But yeah, when they come on stage, you really do have this, like, who is that? Like, what's their deal? And also, you don't know how they're going to portray her. You don't know what, you know, everyone had a very unique take on their Grizabella. And so I think for us to all just take that in, in that moment, being curious, being kind of like, what is that?

You know, it was really shocking. And yeah, like I said, just very organic to be able to be surprised at how this person was showing up, how they were portraying the character, but just a curiosity and like, oh, this is a totally new person. Because we really developed a family over the course of, you know, the few months that we were rehearsing and everything. So it really feels like we're so tight. We know each other, we have, you know, this family bond. And then all of a sudden, there's this outsider. So even if they maybe have, you know, connections to people in real life, you know, we still like I was new, I was brand new. I'm not from Shawnee. I came in because I was looking up places doing cats.

And I was like, yeah, and they were very welcoming to me almost immediately. But for me, I'm just like, I don't know who this is. But I think what was so magical was especially the last night was when Naomi played Grizz and we had never seen her do Grizz. We have never heard, we had never heard her sing Memory. So for that last show, having her come out and us seeing her in the costume makeup for the first time, and it was just from the moment she stepped out during, you know, Glimmer Cat to, you know, when she's going up to the Heaviside Lair. And none of us are holding the harmony at the end. Because we were all, we were all, we were sobbing, we were losing it because she, it was just such a, you know, during the last show, such an emotional experience, but to get to witness her going to do the role, you know, with us was absolutely beautiful. But I didn't realize she was the last Grizz.

[16:28] Erik Simon: Yeah, yeah, she was our last. It was okay. I almost, I was, I was almost at the last show. And I just could not get that far out because there's, there's no bus schedule. At some point, there was no bus options that was going to get me home. And I didn't have, you know, transportation there. And then I looked and I had been overseas. So like I landed probably the day before and I was like, I can make it. And then I was like, I don't actually don't know if I can make it. But I did not realize she was the last Grizzabella. Yeah, it was, it was a very emotional day for all of us. But it was really cathartic and really beautiful getting to close the show with her as Grizz.

[17:12] Erik Simon: Yeah. Having that moment. But you also had five sisters and a bunch of like, I think, wide age range. So like, what was that like in Shawnee? It was a really interesting experience, because I had never been in a multi-generational production before. So we had people ranging from 11 years old to, I think, 68 years old. So it was a very wide range of ages presented, which I think is amazing. And I haven't seen another production of cats like this, because essentially, the show is about a community. And in that show, you have all these different ages represented, you have the different generations. I think that was what was so great about the Jellicote Wall production is that you had, you saw elders representing these elders in the community.

And so we had people who were like Ken who played Deuteronomy, he was, you know, he was on Broadway. And we had a lot of these people who were, you know, very seasoned performers who had come back to do these shows in their local area. But we have these very young people, you know, like children who grew up in, you know, in this town. And we had these five sisters who were all in the show together. So I think it was Tantamile, Cassandra, Demeter, Celebub, and I'm forgetting one more, but there were five sisters, all ranging from, you know, 11 to I think 20 years old. And so having like actual, you know, family people who have actual like family relationships in the show, or like Mongo Jerry, who's the son of Naomi, who played Grizabella.

So you have like actual people who are related in the show. But it's interesting how those ages are kind of represented, because you have kittens, and you have elders, and then you have these, you know, young adults and everything in between. So it was just really interesting to be in a production that really represented those ages reflected in the characters that were being portrayed.

[19:24] Erik Simon: I'd love to hear a little bit about how, you know, there's 20 years in between you doing it in high school to doing it recently. And so what is it like revisiting? Obviously, you did stuff in between with Cats, you obviously had the fandom in between, but what's it like revisiting it on stage? With that, you know, gap in time? I think there was something really beautiful about being able to do the same choreography, although I was doing a different track, because I understudied Demeter. So I was learning a lot of like, kind of the female, you know, choreography, like a lot of the dancing and the ball and everything were like the Macavity dance versus, you know, getting to actually play Macavity and learning Plato's track and getting to do like the boys in Tugger or the boy steps in the ball, but getting to revisit a lot of this choreography.

Now, since, you know, as a trans performer, you know, I was doing this show previously in a body that I was not fully comfortable in, I kind of, I found it to be, you know, this gorgeous, like super liberating dance that feels so amazing to do. And it felt so good to come back and like do the ball and do like Copeland and Warsaw and all these like big iconic things and to do them again, since kind of the journey that I've had in my own physical body, having the opportunity to get to dance kind of more gender affirming roles, like kind of the boy steps and everything. But also just getting to do even some of the same moves that I had had in my body dormant for like 20 years and getting to revisit them and just really getting to be more fully in my body, more expressed. And it felt it was like coming home again, but in a way that felt just more embracing of myself. And I'm very grateful for the opportunity to get to come back and revisit it in this way.

[21:32] Erik Simon: Yeah, that's really cool. I do love the idea that like, I think one of the cool parts of us about cats is that there's probably a personality, a cat that you relate to or something that you bring like that throughout your stages of life and things that you're going through at whatever moment. And you getting to kind of do that at very different periods of time in your life is really a cool opportunity to be able to, especially something again, that you're such a fan of that you grew up with that you spent so much time with to be able to have that at very different moments in your life has got to be a really cool experience.

[22:07] Erik Simon: Absolutely. I mean, this has been with me since I could remember having memories, pretty much since I could walk. And so getting to revisit this work and getting to do the show again in a way that felt the most correct, if that makes sense for myself, it was it was really, like I said, I told Naomi, it was for me getting a new Jellicle life, getting to come back to the ball in this way that felt more like myself and correct, because I always like I don't know, when I did the show back in, you know, 20 years ago, I was like, I don't really want to learn to be like Demeter is a great role. I was like, Oh, I want to be with the boys like I want to get in their tracks. And so I told her I was like, it was just very affirming and very, just really nice to kind of come home to a piece of material that is in, you know, my veins that I've known since forever. And to revisit that in this way has been very special.

[23:13] Erik Simon: We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of the wrong cat died. I want to hear a little bit about I know you've done the shadow casting for, you know, we're essentially you're watching the 2019 movie or watching clips of that. And it's a voiceover, comedic version, right? Like, is that how you're doing it? So shadow casting, essentially, is it's like, born out of Rocky Horror, where basically, you know, they're showing the film, the films playing with the audio and everything. But then you have a group of performers who are essentially shadowing what is happening on the screen. So they're doing the, you know, acting it out in the costumes, dancing, in the case of this.

[24:10] Erik Simon: So we were essentially just doing the entire film from start to finish to the extent that one could, especially with a film that CGI, which is a whole nother story. But and it's also I mean, that film, they jump around so much between the numbers that like, I can imagine you trying to jump cut your way off on and off stage. But I wasn't able to go when you went to did it the first time because you did it. I know you did it originally. Was it? When was it? It was it is October 2023 23. Yeah, because I remember I was out of town. And I was trying to come and I thought it sounded like such a fun, fun night and way to do it in the city. But I know you've done a couple other versions and hopefully we'll do it again.

But with with something like that, that you get almost a little bit more creative, fun and freedom. Like, what's that experience like for you as a fan? Is it something where it's like the most fun night ever? Because you're just kind of hanging out and doing it with friends that also love it? Or is it a little bit of trying to make sure you're bringing it all to the show to do it justice?

[25:09] Erik Simon: I think I think it was more of the latter for sure. Because I'm so heavily devoted to this show. It's in my bones, it's in my spirit. And even though this is 2019, arguably, you know, I will say this 2019 Cats, I feel like people in the fandom, I was talking about people making fun of the show. You know, even back way, way back in the day, but it was a rough, it was a rough year for Cats fans. You know, and then the Jellicle Ball came out last year. And Cats is back now people Cats now people get it now, but 2019 was rough. But I think I wanted to do that show as a shadow cast, because it's, it's funny, it's a weird, it's one of those films that you do need to, you need to watch with friends, you can't watch it alone at home, you know, you want to shout at it, you want to scream, you want to sing along, but you also want to be like, Oh, my God, why are there human hands?

And, you know, why, you know, was James Corden doing, you know, why is Taylor Swift here? You know, why does Jason Derulo have this British accent, but I really did want to come into it with earnestness. I knew it was going to be funny. I didn't know, I was hoping the audience would react and they did. And it was really, they really brought the comedy to it. I think the comedy is already there. But I wanted it to be earnest, even though, you know, it wasn't Gillian Lynn. I have lots of thoughts about that. But I think, you know, I came to it, I brought the lore and all of the history that I knew dramaturgically from getting to do the show, because, you know, when we did the show at the Academy, Billy gave us like all this deep, wonderful lore dumping that, you know, in history, I've, you know, I was researching when I was doing the show, I researched a lot about both the original London production, there's great, there's a great, I don't know if it's NPR, or I think BBC Radio, there's a great, great interviews with the original London cast. There's also a great article with the original Broadway cast. There's a great book too, I forget who, one of the cast members wrote a book, it's like almost a journal.

[27:15] Erik Simon: Oh Gus, right? The diary.

[27:18] Erik Simon: Yeah, the diary is really, really strong too.

[27:21] Erik Simon: Okay, yeah, I've been meaning to read that.

[27:24] Erik Simon: It was really hard to get a copy of it.

[27:27] Erik Simon: I was able to find a copy through like a used bookstore, it's like, I couldn't just like go to Amazon and buy.

[27:32] Erik Simon: For Kindle. It was not an easy thing to find. I had to find an eBay type of thing, or a used bookstore that was able to give me one. But it's a really interesting read for any CATS fandom because it's a live journal as they're doing the rehearsals and the process and the thoughts. It's almost like you can see notes on the side. It reads like a journal, so it's a really cool read. Yeah, I'm surprised that I haven't read it yet, but I've known about it. But I was very interested in hearing what Trevor Nunn was talking about when he was originally directing the production and also when they brought it to Broadway. I know that something that he brought up that I had always envisioned, and I was so excited that he mentioned this, is originally they wanted to do it in a warehouse or something completely different than a Broadway theater.

But then I think the Schubert Organization offered the Winter Garden, and they're like, okay, we'll turn that into a junkyard. Yeah, we'll take this one. But I had always wanted to do the show. Years and years ago, I was very interested in something that was more immersive in a space that was like a warehouse. Because I, for a while, was in the Burning Man community and would go to these very interesting warehouse parties where we would do some weird, immersive, experimental kind of stuff. And now that's becoming more mainstream, especially now that we have Masquerade that's coming up. But I had always wanted to do something that was really immersive and really brought you into the world even more so than what we get in a typical stage production.

With the theater that we had to do this show, that wasn't really super accessible to us, but that's something I would still love to be able to do. But I was excited that Trevor Nunn's original vision was to do something along those lines. But I really wanted to bring that into this show and to still take it earnestly and still take it seriously. I made sure that everyone generally knew kind of what their characters were about, as much as they would allow me to info-dump on them. I don't even think we got as far as doing the three-word descriptions. But I think also because 2019, those characters, a lot of the time, some of them are renamed or the characters exist very differently than usually in the typical productions.

But I did want people to at least still have that the sense of the tribe, the sense of why we're at this ball, what we're celebrating, what is kind of the spiritual relevance of this gathering, why this is important to the Cats. But even just the process of a bunch of us as a group getting to dance together to kind of form this community within the cast, even though it was a very small group of us, it still felt really special to get to develop that bond and to be sweating in the studio together trying to watch this movie. Meanwhile, Tom Hooper, he shoots in 360, which is maddening. So it's cutting around. And the CGI, your eyes can't focus on things. So we had to put it in 0.5 speed to figure out, okay, what is this move?

Which hand are they raising? Which leg are they kicking? But it was a really fun process to do. And then when we brought it to the stage, I feel like the audience, the people that showed up, we somehow managed to find all these hardcore Cats people who were just excited to see a show where they could shout at the screen, where they could sing along, where they could talk their headcanons out loud and all the inside jokes that kind of maybe exist in the fandom. But we finally had a space to kind of vomit at the screen in this open space. It was really fun, because you can't really do that at a show. Yeah, you can't do that at AMC watching, and you can't do that at a Broadway theater, or even a regional theater when you're seeing the show.

I do want to ask, though, I think as someone who is so deep in the fandom, there's so much lore that's completely unanswered. And there are some things where it's like, you look at the Circus Cats, they made their own family tree. You look at the Coaster Cats, and they had some decisions of, for sure, this is our story. But most of the productions don't do that. So as someone who's early in the fandom, and you're in the chatroom version of the fandom, you're deep in there, and I'm later and newer to this. What are the hot takes from you? What are the things that are, we should have never changed that, or that's for sure happening? Do you have those hardcore beliefs of some things, or are you just very open to, I like the lore, I like the openness of it, play it however you want within the confines of what we think should be the case?

[33:02] Erik Simon: That's a really great question. I think what was so wonderful about getting to be in a production where we were doing the original staging, but still, I mean, revisiting the show after doing it 20 years ago, getting to revisit it basically with pretty much the same structure. So Billy and Naomi actually, you know, they toured together in Europe for Chorus Line, and she briefly was on the U.S. tour with him when she covered for Griz for like four weeks. So she had done it from, I think, 92 to 95. He did it 97 to 2000. We were basically doing almost the same. There were some little differences here and there, but we were mostly doing kind of the same structure and same staging. And, but there's still, there's so much space.

And that's something that I've learned. Like, I've listened to a lot of episodes of this podcast. I'm a huge fan. And even listening to like a lot of the performers, different interpretations of the characters and their relationships, like how Mungo and Rumpel, they can be siblings, they can be mates, they can be, you know, just partners in crime. There's like all these, there's a lot of different interpretations. There are a lot of, like, baseline things that are given when doing a production, but there's so much space to play. Like, I was surprised hearing from like Jacob Brent when he was talking about what he felt, what his interpretation of Misto was, because the fandom has for years and years and years, you know, we know like the Telgophiles, you know, kind of ship and everything.

But he was like, Oh no, like, he's actually like a young teen who just looks up to Tugger. And it's just excited that like Tugger thinks that he's cool and magical and is giving him this attention. But he, you know, we headcanon them, you know, in a different way. So I think it's so cool that like a performer can interpret this role in a certain way or develop these different relationship dynamics within the Jellicle tribe, but how maybe we might interpret them differently. So I think having that space to play is what makes the show so exciting. And I think you would think like, Oh, you'd be sick of cats. And I'm like, I was just immersed in cats and then just got off, back from a con, like working on a cats related project there.

But I'm like, I'm never sick of cats, because there's so much in the world to constantly explore and to discover about characters. And I think what's so great about these productions that are finally getting to play more with the lore and create some of their own lore. I think that's wonderful, because it keeps it interesting. I'm bummed I didn't get to see Circus Cats and Fulton, but I heard, you know, a bit about kind of what those kind of family trees or storylines were. And I think that's great, because you don't, I don't think you have to, I think when you get the licensing, there are certain things that you have to do. But I think it's great that we're getting these fresh perspectives.

[36:18] Erik Simon: I agree. I agree completely. I love it, because I like the, again, as someone who only thinks about plot and lore and stuff like that, like, you did the original choreography, you could have shown me the two differences, I wouldn't be able to tell you. Like, that's just not something I've spent any time looking at. But I love the ability. But I also kind of love the chaos that ensues from that, because people really, there are a group of the fandom that's like, no, that is 100% wrong. Or that is the way, and I think it's mostly because it's just the way that they've interpreted it for so long in their own mind, that it's like, that's the way they know it. And it's not, they're not saying that you're wrong for viewing the other way.

It's just like, that's the version that they've always embraced in their mind. And it's probably from like watching the 1998 movie or watching one versus when you watch some of these other ones, it's very clear, some of those small staging tweaks actually could make it a different choice. Which I think is, like you just said, is one of the coolest parts of the show to me.

[37:15] Erik Simon: Yeah, I mean, I think like, people have personal preferences. Like, I definitely have personal preferences. Like, I grew up with the original London cast recording, most people grew up with Broadway and the 1998 movie. So they like the Mungo Rumpel from like 1998 movie. So then when they heard Mungo Rumpel in 2019, they're like, that's wrong. And I'm like, actually, no, I'm stoked that they're doing the original London Mungo Rumpel, because that's what I grew up with. And that's what I love. As far as like, there are certain I prefer when Grizz is played as a contemporary of like Bamba and like Monk and Demeter as opposed to her being played older. I think I understand why, like, I think we assume she's older, because in the 1998 production, I think they aged up Elaine Page's character.

And I've seen that happen, too. I feel like they did that in the Sunset Boulevard production. And I think it was 2017, when they brought Glenn Close back to play Norma. It felt like they aged Norma up, even though Norma is really only in her 40s. But we view her as very old. But she's not, she's not old, but she's old for Hollywood. And so I think like, same thing as Grizz, like, okay, Grizz is, she's been through a lot. So she's ragged, and she's, she's been through it. But she's not old in the sense of she's not contemporaries of like Dew and Gus.

[39:50] Erik Simon: For sure. For sure. So I think that, I think that's a stronger choice for that. And that's what was originally intended. So I think those are just like some things I think about as being, okay, like, this is how I think is a stronger choice. But it doesn't mean that you can't play things in another way.

[40:11] Erik Simon: Yeah, I think that's, that's, ideally, the way you want to think about it, which is like, there are some things I think you have to have is like, accepting is true. So the story or the story just doesn't work. And then there's a lot of stuff where it's like, all right, they could be sisters, they could be friends, they could like, it doesn't really make a difference. And it's, it's probably one of the things that I think is most fun for me to like, when I talked to people still doing the show or going to like in rehearsals to do the show. So I'm like, all right, are you thinking about it this way or not? And I know the Lucy who's Grizabella on the international tour, the other day, she just messaged me being like, I hadn't thought about this, but our conversation kind of sparked that and then it's like, you know, and again, it doesn't change anything for her.

She's running off stage at that moment anyways. But it was like, oh, that actually does kind of fit this theory a little bit more than, than you were thinking before. And I think that's a cool part for someone who's doing eight shows a week to have some of those little things to kind of tinker with to make it fresh every night.

[40:59] Erik Simon: Yeah. Well, when I had an interesting task, because I was playing Macavity. Yeah. And Plato, this is usually not what people do. And it's usually prescribed to not be done this way. And I don't think I if there was a hardcore person in the audience watching, unless they were like, really watching, I don't think they would pick up on this. And I didn't even talk to the director about it, because I made sure to do this in a way that didn't take away from the rest of what was going on. Usually Plato and Macavity are separate entities. Yeah. Like Plato's just the ensemble cat that exists. Yeah, you dance the opening. Yeah, you do every, you're in Tugger, you're in the ball, you have a very different storyline than what's going on with Macavity. I was presented an interesting task accidentally. So I'm barely 5'1". Macavity was not a role that I ever thought I would be in the running for. Because he's typically, you know.

[41:49] Erik Simon: To me, Macavity has always been a very two-dimensional character, like, oh, he's the villain. He's scary. He's bad. We're afraid of him. But I have never thought about him very much. And I felt like to do him justice, I needed to think about his motivations a bit more. Why? How did he turn evil? Why does he want to still do, you know, besides just wreak havoc? What is, you know, I wanted to put a bit more juice behind that. And something that was really interesting that helped inform this is I was listening to, I don't think it was the director, but you did an episode with the Fulton director, and I'm not sure. And Joey, who's, Joey and Mark have done like eight or nine productions together.

And Joey's performed, and he was the choreography, he was doing makeup, so they're kind of all doing everything there. So I think it was Joey who said, you were asking them what their least favorite character was. And someone was like, Plato. I don't really get his story. I'm not really, I don't get much from it. I'm not that interested in him. And I was like, okay, I want to make Plato interesting. Like, I need to give Plato a story. I need to give Macavity a story. So I kind of tried to figure out, you know, for both of those characters. And then it kind of dawned on me that they actually were the same, at least for myself. And so, I still had canon Macavity as being the brother of Munkustrap and Tugger.

In this production, Munkustrap and Tugger are played by the tall, they're very tall guys, very, very tall. And I was headcanoning that as Macavity slash Plato is brothers with them. And he was kind of like the runt, you know, in the litter or what they call it with cats. And so Munkustrap is like, he inherits the tribe. He's second in command, you know, Deuteronomy, you know, he's that guy to do. And so there's that big brother, you know, kind of way about him. And then Tugger is like, the ladies' man, everyone loves Tugger, they're obsessed with Tugger. And I always felt like Plato slash Macavity, he kind of is trying to figure out how to stand out. And he doesn't really know, you know, he's kind of struggling with that.

He kind of looks up to Munkustrap, but he also is jealous of him because jealous is one of the three words that Macavity is given. And so I was like, oh, it makes sense for him to be jealous of Munkustrap in his position, and then also jealous of Tugger. And without getting too much into like the dark history of his relationship with like Demeter and things like that, I think if we play it in just a little less intense, he's just kind of, I want to call him an incel, but he's kind of like, he wants that bravado, he wants to be an alpha male, and I think he needs to find a way to stand out. And I think, so although he's not tall, he is very big in his presence, like as Macavity, like this really big wig, and he tries to make himself bigger.

And in the way that cats, when they're threatened, they puff themselves up. And so they have to like appear larger, to kind of scare away potential predators and to defend themselves. And so I found, so I kind of headcanoned this or just in the show felt like, okay, Plato has Macavity as his like, alter ego. This is like his way of kind of being like, you know, him trying to stand out, even if it's in a bad way. You know, he's like, he wants attention. He's attention-seeking. I think he's that like youngest brother of like, I need, you know, they're getting all the attention or he's getting all the ladies. So I wanted to kind of empathize with him a little bit and to give him a little bit more roundedness to him, like give him a reason for why he's stealing, do you know, he just, he wants attention.

And, you know, he doesn't know how to do that. And in our show, also, because Plato goes on as Rumpus, we did like, you know, we made some short jokes. So, you know, Munkusstrap is kind of like, oh, God, like, oh, he's playing Rumpus. He's short and he okay, like, so they had Munkusstrap kind of make fun of me and my height and stuff during the show. And he's kind of like, I guess, fiercer or hairier, I don't know, like would pat my head and stuff. And so I would get, you know, more and more frustrated because I'm like, okay, I'm really trying to be this Rumpus guy. I'm trying to be scary. I'm trying to take him seriously. And then, you know, at the end, Tugger comes in with his bagpipes and he like tries to ruin, you know, he tries to take the spotlight again.

And Plato's like, this was my moment, you know, and so we kind of I kind of played with that where it's like, you know, they're picking on him, they're making fun of him. And he really just wants to be seen. And so he acts out. And so it's not necessarily this like super intense, violent thing, but just like, pay attention to me, take me seriously.

[47:37] Mike Abrams: I like the alter ego idea. It's like, it's, yeah, it leans in perfectly to that. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. I want to do some rapid fire. So if you could play any cat, who would you want to play as?

[47:52] Erik Simon: Cassandra.

[47:53] Mike Abrams: Cassandra. Fun. Okay. Favorite and least favorite cat to hang out with personality-wise. So who would you want to hang out with? Who would bug you?

[48:01] Erik Simon: Oh, gosh. Personality-wise, I probably, I think Misto. And I think, who would bug me? Probably Tugger.

[48:15] Mike Abrams: Tugger. Okay. Favorite song from the show?

[48:18] Erik Simon: Oh, prologue. Jellicle songs for Jellicle.

[48:20] Mike Abrams: Okay. All right. I always ask one fun one. And because I like the idea of shadow casting, if you could shadow cast a different movie, but you're all still in your cats characters, what movie do you think would be fun to shadow cast as cats?

[48:34] Erik Simon: Ah, that's so tough. This is your rapid fire. As cats. Any movie. I don't know if it would be fun. I would like to do it because I've joked about shadow casting this, but I think it would be cool to do Les Mis. It's also John Cooper.

[48:51] Mike Abrams: Just do another musical movie. That would be fun. I was thinking, I think I got stuck too much in the cats part of this. And it was, I was like, The Lion King.

[49:03] Erik Simon: Oh, Lion King.

[49:04] Mike Abrams: If you're all in cats costumes already, as Tugger is there, and you've got Macavity's scar, and you've got some of that kind of thing you can play with. Okay. Million dollar question. I obviously, you know, this is coming. I've argued, I don't think it's Grizabella. I want to know as Eric, who are you picking as your character choice and why?

[49:23] Erik Simon: Oh, I'm going to pick Macavity.

[49:25] Mike Abrams: Macavity. Okay. Give me the rationale.

[49:28] Erik Simon: So I think in general, I just think Griz deserves to be embraced and accepted by the tribe. I think getting to experience that as her redemption, I really think she deserves that. And I know that she's supposed to go off and have a new jellicle life. But overall, just in general, the way I've seen it played, I just think that I would love to see her get to be with her family again, and to rebuild those relationships or have new relationships with the jellicles. And her story is not over. I think she deserves like a love never dies sequel or something where we get to see what happens if she stayed. But Macavity, I think, and I don't just mean the version of Macavity that I kind of was developing in my head.

But I think in general, Macavity is a character that we like completely stop thinking about, you know, he, you know, he, the lights go out, and then Duke comes back from magic from Misto, but we don't ever think about Macavity again. But Macavity is a real threat. And if we do look at Macavity in kind of the more darker layers of his character and his history with Demeter and that relationship, he is a very, he is, I think, because I got to play Macavity, I wanted to understand him better. And I think that if we go into that deeper, darker aspect of him being harmful towards the other cats, and like, really not just like, oh, here's this two-dimensional villain. He's scary. We don't like him.

Like, actually that he's a threat and dangerous. He is, you know, someone who has maybe he has deep wounds, and he is trying to overcompensate and he is being really harmful towards his tribe. And I think because we I think we can redeem. Gris has a redemption arc, she is redeemable. I think that Macavity is beyond redemption, and therefore, should get a chance at a new jellicle life, not because he's trying to get rid of everyone like in the 2019 movie, he kidnaps all the people that want to be the jellicle choice. But I think it's less about, oh, he really wants to be the jellicle choice. I think he should be because he needs that redemption so badly. I think he needs a fresh start because he is so wounded and maybe traumatized or just where he has done so much harm that if he could get a chance at a new life to restart fresh, I think he should.

And so I would and my way of not voting for Gris is not because I don't think she deserves things. I think she does. And I think she deserves her family. And Macavity deserves to get a fresh start because he's beyond that redemption point.

[52:49] Mike Abrams: I'm with you. I don't have an argument, because I agree with the wine to stay. And I think the Macavity part of like, I like the idea that you're saying is that they need the cavity needs a fresh start. And Macavity is like, there's no coming back from where we are. And so this now gives a chance to help the tribe in one way to remove him as a threat and get rid of him from the harm that he causes, but also is giving him a chance to start fresh in a way, which I think is nice. So.

[53:18] Erik Simon: And to get that from his own father, too. Yeah, we had his father, I think that could be such a beautiful moment. And it would be, I don't know. So I think I'm with you on I would love to see alternative portrayals of what that like almost in a choose your own adventure where people could decide on like an ending where we got to see a different ending with a different cat gang to ascend. I think if there was a possibility to do that, and I think you could with like, parody, you know, on everything, I would be willing, I would love to help you direct that or be a part of that. If I'm trying, I'm trying, but I'm not qualified. So I would need multiples of you, you know, like, like you to help me get that off the ground. I basically had the idea of it. But this has been so fun. How can people stay in touch with you and things you're working on and things you're doing?

[54:14] Erik Simon: So I am on Instagram, curious beast TM. So awesome. That's where I post all my up to date happenings. And hopefully there'll be another shadow cast that everyone in New York can come see and we'll relive 2019. The movie, maybe the 1998 movie, maybe do a little bit of hybrid of the two pick the best parts of both and, and have fun.

[54:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Well, thanks for coming on the show.

[54:45] Erik Simon: Yeah, thank you.

[54:49] Mike Abrams: And thanks everyone for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or any of us in this podcast falls on social media, or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.