This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:16] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of CATS atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. You got to hear a little bit about his experience because he was one of the cats I interviewed when I went to Washington D.C. to film my 100th episode with the US National Tour. But I'm excited to dig even deeper today. He was a swing on the US National Tour 6 of CATS. And I am excited because he's about to go on the Royal Caribbean Cruise Line's Oasis of the Seas as the Rum Tum Tugger here later this year. So welcome, José Raúl, and thank you for joining me.

[0:46] José Raúl: Hey, thanks for having me.

[0:48] Mike Abrams: Welcome back. This is excited to have you. I mean, we're now 100 more episodes from when we talked. So this is a long time since we chatted in, I think it was January of 22 or 23. I mean, it was. Yeah. It was a while ago. So I always like to start at the beginning, though, because we'll get into your time. You did both years on that tour. You know, you switched the cast. But tell me your CATS history before that. When was the first time you saw it?

[1:14] José Raúl: So the first time I heard of it, I was going to audition for it at a community theater. I had just finished 13, the musical at the age of 13. That was my first musical ever. And I always I didn't know that you sing live for musicals. So as a kid, I was like, we're going to record this. It's going to be great. And then I was like, oh, you want me to sing live?

[1:37] Mike Abrams: Sing and dance. Yeah.

[1:38] José Raúl: Yeah. Yeah. So I did CATS at the age of 14, actually.

[1:42] Mike Abrams: 14.

[1:43] José Raúl: 14 at a community theater. And I played Mungojerrie.

[1:47] Mike Abrams: Mungojerrie at 14. Where was this? Where was this done?

[1:51] José Raúl: It's in Pennsylvania, Effort Performing Arts Center. Actually, Jonathan Groff started there as a kid or as a young adult as well.

[1:59] Mike Abrams: Okay. So 14 Mungojerrie, you said.

[2:01] José Raúl: Yeah.

[2:02] Mike Abrams: And were you doing the cartwheels and everything?

[2:04] José Raúl: No, absolutely not. I aspired to. And we definitely—I mean, honestly, that was when I first was revealed to have dancing potential. The choreographer, Kristen Ponce, taught at a local studio. And she was like, there's—in the end, was it the naming of cats, which is crazy?

[2:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it was the naming of cats.

[2:27] José Raúl: I like we were kind of improving it. And I stretched out in front of the group facing the mirror. And I just like stretched my leg and my leg went pretty high. And she remarked in the moment. And then after that rehearsal, she was like, you could actually dance if you want to.

[2:44] Mike Abrams: Wow. Okay. So at 14, how much of the story are they telling you? Because like you now know it having done two years of the full, you know, somewhat dark sexual story. But at 14, are they telling you that what the ball actually is?

[3:00] José Raúl: I remember some adults talking about it as an orgy.

[3:07] Mike Abrams: You know, this is community theater. Yeah.

[3:09] José Raúl: There's no regulating people's behavior or people's conversations. So I do remember that aspect. But the cast was like there was a number of us who were in high school. Not that that necessarily means anything. But yeah.

[3:26] Mike Abrams: So I don't recall. I think it was referred to as an orgy jokingly. And besides that, I think a lot of discoveries were made just by watching the film, the '98 film on YouTube, probably. And moving in these costumes in the room, you know, with people my own age and people a bit older. I think that the sensuality aspect is just inherent.

[3:55] José Raúl: Yeah, totally. But I mean, that's got to be an interesting—like that's a very formative time of your life in general to do that. Was your Rumpleteazer around the same age or older?

[4:05] José Raúl: She was a little older. She was two years older.

[4:07] Mike Abrams: Okay, so still, you know, still underage, like still a kid in the scheme of things. So, okay, so I'm sure you played that a little bit more friendly brother-sister.

[4:17] José Raúl: Definitely. Yeah. I'm fascinated by community theaters doing this. And there's so many—there's a couple coming up. I know a couple next year already announced. And it's such a wild thing to me because it's like it is such a dark story and sexual story in the scheme of things. And it's like here's a 14-year-old about to go do this.

[4:37] José Raúl: Yeah, it's—well, so many things come to mind as you're talking about this topic. And honestly, I've envisioned being on this podcast one-on-one. So I'm so excited to be here. And this topic that I'm about to bring up has come to mind as a talking point. In preparation for year two with Chrissy Cartwright, because we got to work with her both times. Gratefully, I'm such a big fan of hers and so grateful for her influence. And year two, I asked the question because this time in year two, I felt more comfortable. I was much more comfortable. Yeah. Just as a person, I felt more grounded. And, you know, also the pandemic was like a bit further away than total. It was still—yeah. During the pandemic, year one.

But I asked her about sexuality in the show and she made a really useful disambiguation, which was their sexuality. And then there's sensuality. And I'm kind of inserting my own perspective in this. But sensuality is like cats have heightened senses beyond humans, like hundreds of times more sensitive, tens of times more sensitive. So humans have kind of distanced ourselves from our senses as a way of making ourselves more acceptable, presentable, professional, et cetera. But they're there and cats just don't have that distance. So like smelling each other and I mean, really, it's smell and the proximity of body contact and stuff is just—it's just an extension of their perception and their cognition. It's not like we have sexuality as a much deeper thing because it encompasses a lot of sensuality, which is just inherent to being an animal, a being.

[6:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's such an interesting point, too, because I'm also like taking this from the American lens and this is a global, you know, this is listened to globally. And the show is obviously very global. And that's not the same everywhere. There's some areas of the world where it is much more strict and some areas of the world where it's even more loose. And so you're spot on with like cats. It's their cats, you know, like it is a different thing. So I have just always found that like that aspect of it, because this is theater, because this is like you have to almost dispel that belief of like I'm watching—I know I'm watching humans, but I'm not watching humans in this moment because I've got to watch cats.

[7:06] José Raúl: Yes. And that's always a little bit of an interesting point. But you said something that I'm really curious about because I want to ask you, because obviously we want to talk about your time on tour and the obviously upcoming Royal Caribbean. You mentioned, you know, you've obviously—we've—you've been on the show, but not in this capacity. And you've had a lot of things you want to talk about. What's the things that you want me to ask you? Like, where do you want this? I want you to tell me what you've been thinking about for this conversation.

[7:31] José Raúl: I could talk for hours about CATS. Certainly I am—I don't even know if superfan is the right term. I just think the IP is excellent. Yeah. Beyond it's exquisite, actually. And I think that as we saw at the Performing Arts Center production, the cats, how people calling it ballroom. You know, that's just one extrapolation of the IP. I think there could be lots of—oh, for sure. Yeah. And I would love that.

[8:01] Mike Abrams: Me too. Me too. And the universe itself is—it could go so many different directions. Shout out to the fans who are writing their own stories, making their own art that just—that inspires the performers. And it's a testament to the work of T.S. Eliot and the whole crew that brought this musical to life. I could talk about, you know, the aforementioned, just all the different directions it could go. The expansion of the universe. Sensuality is really interesting to me. Any of the characters that I covered, I love them all. I love.

[8:37] Mike Abrams: Okay, we got many places to go. Let's start with the expansion of the universe because this is an area we've only like briefly talked about in this podcast. So there's my—obviously CATS 2 and a couple of things I've joked. I have had someone who has written a CATS 2.

[8:52] José Raúl: Ed Kingsley Wade. Yeah, yeah. Where would you love to see it go?

[8:56] José Raúl: Where would I love to see it go? That's exciting. I think that—I mean, I'm honestly just of—well, it's hard. Words are hard because they're so limiting and there's such a commitment, such a commitment. But I would say I would just be curious to see it expand in any and every direction that is true to what already exists. I think that's what I would like to see first.

[9:18] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[9:18] José Raúl: And then eventually we could see, like, you know, multiverse interpretations. But, you know, off the top of my head, absolutely the top of my head. Why does Tugger know Mistoffelees and no one else seems to think of him when they're looking for Old Deuteronomy? He's the one who's like—and he's braced for people to scoff and they do. Please listen to me and don't scoff. All these inventions are off. You ought to ask Mr. Mistoffelees, the original conjuring cat. There can be no doubt about that, but they are doubting. Why are they doubting? Like the instruction from Chrissy from the top down is that there is doubt amongst them. So I do have something as Tugger to play against. And so where did I ever hear or meet, hear of or meet Mistoffelees? That alone could be such an exciting story.

[10:08] José Raúl: And I think the fans—the fans have written that story many times. I purposefully not read these, but man, they are. I mean, they're obviously very much a relationship-based storytelling. That's probably the number one, I would say, relationship from the fan fiction space that you can get. It's a Tugger, Mistoffelees, Tugger, Mistoffelees, whichever version you want to call it. And you're right. Like the doubt is there. I'm interested because you mentioned the top down kind of from Chrissy. Like where are some of the other things that you—having that experience? I mean, she's a legend, like getting to work with her. What other things do you remember that she kind of told you that like really stuck with you as directions?

[10:46] José Raúl: Off the top of my head, and I do have my notes here. The top of my head, you know, this is so—we are cats. You are being a cat. This is going to sound so ridiculous. And I encourage anyone who has doubt at hearing this to really commit to considering this idea. Like you said, they're seeing humans, but they're supposed to believe that they're seeing cats. Our job is to commit to the exploration. And that expression never ends is to commit to that perception, that feline perception on stage. And when an ensemble is doing that, when you have every person on that stage doing that, it does something to the energy on that stage that it distances it from humanity. And as the audience understands themselves to be.

And it creates a spectacle that is an alien world. We are getting insight to how the feline species not only views themselves and what their reality is like, but we're also learning that it's beyond the confines of human reality. They do have magic. They do influence the human world.

[12:04] José Raúl: Something else from Chrissy about Old Deuteronomy. Well, this is also actually from the poem in T.S. Eliot's Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats. But in that poem, Old Deuteronomy is a cat who is crossing. He's so popular in the town and the local town that when he's crossing the road, they will shut down the road for him to cross at his own pace so that they don't have to rush him. He's so sacred and respected, revered. And to me, that's like—so that's from, you know, that's Chrissy ushering our attention and the interpretation of the role of Old Deuteronomy and his status. But then it's like, well, for us as Jellicles, he can be—he is the conduit between what the Jellicles need and what humans need. If we need a road shut down, Old Deuteronomy can go in the middle of the street. He has influence in the human world. How exciting.

[12:54] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Wow. It is so interesting. I love learning all these little pieces. It's like, you know, you assume that. But to hear that that's given to you and also really like a point, that's the level of detail that I think probably a 14-year-old, you don't get to go into because you're only doing a few weeks. But on tour and, you know, just these like deep productions where you get to have that ability is fascinating. So Old Deuteronomy, I like that he shut down traffic like he is. He is able to connect with beyond the Jellicles, which is why he's a higher being right in the world.

[13:29] José Raúl: Yeah. Yeah. And I think about the fact that, you know, there are some cats with collars. There are some without. And, you know, you don't need to—you don't need to be domesticated to influence humans. But the ones who do have human, quote unquote, owners, I mean, who's owning whom? And we could influence the human world. How much do we influence the human world? Cats have, you know, been revered as, you know, gods, gods and deities for millennia.

[13:55] Mike Abrams: For sure. For sure. You know, you said something else that kind of really—I finally experienced. But I went to the international tour and I did sit with the director during the show. And, you know, he was taking notes the whole time. And I was kind of fascinated because a lot—I would ask the intermission. I was fascinated. Obviously, nobody else around me was speaking English, too, because we were in Germany. So I couldn't, like, talk to people being like, what do you need to know about what you just watched? I was talking to him and I was asking, like, what type of notes he's taking. And I was a little surprised by how many of them were moments where they were missing that feline component.

[14:31] José Raúl Mangual: You know, I started in community theater, and my first role in CATS was actually as a swing. I was covering multiple roles, which was a challenge, but it really helped me understand the show from different perspectives.

[15:01] José Raúl Mangual: The sensuality and sexuality in CATS are so integral to the characters. Each cat has their own unique way of expressing themselves, and it’s fascinating to explore those dynamics on stage.

[15:31] José Raúl Mangual: I think the expansion of the CATS universe has been really interesting. With the new adaptations and interpretations, it allows for a fresh take on the characters while still honoring the original material.

[15:41] José Raúl Mangual: Being a swing comes with its own set of challenges. You have to be ready to jump into any role at a moment's notice, which keeps you on your toes and really sharpens your skills as a performer.

[15:51] José Raúl Mangual: Character development is crucial in CATS. Each cat has a backstory that informs their behavior and relationships with others, and diving into that helps create a more authentic performance.

[16:01] José Raúl Mangual: Reflecting on the feline experience, I find it fascinating how embodying a cat can change your movement and mindset. It’s a unique challenge that adds depth to the performance.

[16:11] José Raúl Mangual: I’m really excited about my upcoming role as the Rum Tum Tugger on Royal Caribbean's Oasis of the Seas. It’s a fantastic opportunity to bring this character to life in a new setting.

[16:21] José Raúl Mangual: The challenges of performing on a cruise ship are different from traditional theater. You have to adapt to the environment and the audience, which can be a fun and rewarding experience.

[16:31] José Raúl Mangual: I love the CATS universe and the community it creates. The fans are incredibly passionate, and it’s great to connect with them through social media and at performances.

[16:41] José Raúl Mangual: The Jellicle choice is such a pivotal moment in the show. It raises questions about worthiness and redemption, which resonate with audiences on many levels.

[16:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think the psychological impact of embodying a feline is profound. It allows performers to explore different aspects of their personalities and express emotions in a unique way.

[17:01] José Raúl Mangual: The relationships between the characters are so rich and complex. Each interaction adds layers to the story and enhances the overall experience for the audience.

[17:11] José Raúl Mangual: I’ve learned so much from my time in CATS, and I’m grateful for the experiences I’ve had. Each performance is an opportunity to grow and connect with the audience.

[17:21] José Raúl Mangual: The energy in the theater is electric, especially during the big numbers. It’s a thrill to be part of something that brings so much joy to people.

[17:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m looking forward to the challenges that come with performing on a cruise ship. It’s a new adventure, and I can’t wait to see how it unfolds.

[17:41] José Raúl Mangual: The camaraderie among the cast is one of the best parts of being in CATS. We support each other and share in the excitement of bringing these characters to life.

[17:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think the themes of acceptance and belonging in CATS are universal. They resonate with people from all walks of life, making the show timeless.

[18:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m passionate about sharing the magic of CATS with audiences. It’s a unique experience that I hope everyone gets to enjoy at least once.

[18:11] José Raúl Mangual: The process of preparing for a role is always evolving. I’m constantly finding new ways to connect with the character and bring them to life on stage.

[18:21] José Raúl Mangual: I believe that every performance is a chance to tell a story. It’s about connecting with the audience and making them feel something.

[18:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m excited to see how my journey with CATS continues to unfold. Each chapter brings new opportunities and challenges that I embrace wholeheartedly.

[18:41] José Raúl Mangual: The support from the CATS community is incredible. It’s a reminder of why we do what we do and the impact we can have on others.

[18:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think the future of CATS is bright. With new interpretations and productions, the legacy of the show will continue to inspire generations to come.

[19:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m grateful for the experiences I’ve had in theater. They’ve shaped me as a performer and as a person, and I look forward to what lies ahead.

[19:11] José Raúl Mangual: The journey of being a swing performer has taught me resilience and adaptability. It’s a skill set that I carry with me in all aspects of my life.

[19:21] José Raúl Mangual: I think it’s important to embrace the challenges that come with performing. They push you to grow and evolve as an artist.

[19:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m excited to share my passion for CATS with audiences on the cruise ship. It’s a unique opportunity to connect with people from all over the world.

[19:41] José Raúl Mangual: The thrill of performing live is unmatched. Each show is a new adventure, and I love the energy that comes with it.

[19:51] José Raúl Mangual: I believe that theater has the power to bring people together. It creates a sense of community and shared experience that is truly special.

[20:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m looking forward to the next chapter in my journey with CATS. It’s a story that continues to evolve, and I’m excited to be a part of it.

[20:11] José Raúl Mangual: The lessons I’ve learned from my time in theater are invaluable. They’ve shaped my perspective and helped me grow as an individual.

[20:21] José Raúl Mangual: I think the magic of CATS lies in its ability to connect with audiences on a deep emotional level. It’s a testament to the power of storytelling.

[20:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m grateful for the opportunity to perform in such an iconic show. It’s a dream come true, and I cherish every moment on stage.

[20:41] José Raúl Mangual: The journey of a performer is filled with ups and downs, but it’s all part of the experience. I embrace each moment and learn from it.

[20:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think the future of theater is bright, and I’m excited to see where it takes me. Each performance is a chance to make a difference.

[21:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m passionate about sharing my love for CATS with others. It’s a show that has touched so many lives, and I’m proud to be a part of it.

[21:11] José Raúl Mangual: The relationships I’ve built within the cast are some of the most rewarding aspects of my journey. We support each other and grow together.

[21:21] José Raúl Mangual: I think the themes of love and acceptance in CATS are universal. They resonate with audiences and create a lasting impact.

[21:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m excited to see how my role as Rum Tum Tugger evolves. Each performance brings new challenges and opportunities for growth.

[21:41] José Raúl Mangual: The thrill of performing live is something I cherish. It’s a unique experience that allows me to connect with the audience in a profound way.

[21:51] José Raúl Mangual: I believe that every performance is a chance to tell a story. It’s about creating a shared experience that resonates with people.

[22:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m looking forward to the challenges that come with performing on a cruise ship. It’s a new adventure that I’m ready to embrace.

[22:11] José Raúl Mangual: The support from the CATS community is incredible. It’s a reminder of why we do what we do and the impact we can have on others.

[22:21] José Raúl Mangual: I think the future of CATS is bright. With new interpretations and productions, the legacy of the show will continue to inspire generations to come.

[22:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m grateful for the experiences I’ve had in theater. They’ve shaped me as a performer and as a person, and I look forward to what lies ahead.

[22:41] José Raúl Mangual: The journey of being a swing performer has taught me resilience and adaptability. It’s a skill set that I carry with me in all aspects of my life.

[22:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think it’s important to embrace the challenges that come with performing. They push you to grow and evolve as an artist.

[23:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m excited to share my passion for CATS with audiences on the cruise ship. It’s a unique opportunity to connect with people from all over the world.

[23:11] José Raúl Mangual: The thrill of performing live is unmatched. Each show is a new adventure, and I love the energy that comes with it.

[23:21] José Raúl Mangual: I believe that theater has the power to bring people together. It creates a sense of community and shared experience that is truly special.

[23:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m looking forward to the next chapter in my journey with CATS. It’s a story that continues to evolve, and I’m excited to be a part of it.

[23:41] José Raúl Mangual: The lessons I’ve learned from my time in theater are invaluable. They’ve shaped my perspective and helped me grow as an individual.

[23:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think the magic of CATS lies in its ability to connect with audiences on a deep emotional level. It’s a testament to the power of storytelling.

[24:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m grateful for the opportunity to perform in such an iconic show. It’s a dream come true, and I cherish every moment on stage.

[24:11] José Raúl Mangual: The journey of a performer is filled with ups and downs, but it’s all part of the experience. I embrace each moment and learn from it.

[24:21] José Raúl Mangual: I think the future of theater is bright, and I’m excited to see where it takes me. Each performance is a chance to make a difference.

[24:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m passionate about sharing my love for CATS with others. It’s a show that has touched so many lives, and I’m proud to be a part of it.

[24:41] José Raúl Mangual: The relationships I’ve built within the cast are some of the most rewarding aspects of my journey. We support each other and grow together.

[24:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think the themes of love and acceptance in CATS are universal. They resonate with audiences and create a lasting impact.

[25:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m excited to see how my role as Rum Tum Tugger evolves. Each performance brings new challenges and opportunities for growth.

[25:11] José Raúl Mangual: The thrill of performing live is something I cherish. It’s a unique experience that allows me to connect with the audience in a profound way.

[25:21] José Raúl Mangual: I believe that every performance is a chance to tell a story. It’s about creating a shared experience that resonates with people.

[25:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m looking forward to the challenges that come with performing on a cruise ship. It’s a new adventure that I’m ready to embrace.

[25:41] José Raúl Mangual: The support from the CATS community is incredible. It’s a reminder of why we do what we do and the impact we can have on others.

[25:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think the future of CATS is bright. With new interpretations and productions, the legacy of the show will continue to inspire generations to come.

[26:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m grateful for the experiences I’ve had in theater. They’ve shaped me as a performer and as a person, and I look forward to what lies ahead.

[26:11] José Raúl Mangual: The journey of being a swing performer has taught me resilience and adaptability. It’s a skill set that I carry with me in all aspects of my life.

[26:21] José Raúl Mangual: I think it’s important to embrace the challenges that come with performing. They push you to grow and evolve as an artist.

[26:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m excited to share my passion for CATS with audiences on the cruise ship. It’s a unique opportunity to connect with people from all over the world.

[26:41] José Raúl Mangual: The thrill of performing live is unmatched. Each show is a new adventure, and I love the energy that comes with it.

[26:51] José Raúl Mangual: I believe that theater has the power to bring people together. It creates a sense of community and shared experience that is truly special.

[27:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m looking forward to the next chapter in my journey with CATS. It’s a story that continues to evolve, and I’m excited to be a part of it.

[27:11] José Raúl Mangual: The lessons I’ve learned from my time in theater are invaluable. They’ve shaped my perspective and helped me grow as an individual.

[27:21] José Raúl Mangual: I think the magic of CATS lies in its ability to connect with audiences on a deep emotional level. It’s a testament to the power of storytelling.

[27:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m grateful for the opportunity to perform in such an iconic show. It’s a dream come true, and I cherish every moment on stage.

[27:41] José Raúl Mangual: The journey of a performer is filled with ups and downs, but it’s all part of the experience. I embrace each moment and learn from it.

[27:51] José Raúl Mangual: I think the future of theater is bright, and I’m excited to see where it takes me. Each performance is a chance to make a difference.

[28:01] José Raúl Mangual: I’m passionate about sharing my love for CATS with others. It’s a show that has touched so many lives, and I’m proud to be a part of it.

[28:11] José Raúl Mangual: The relationships I’ve built within the cast are some of the most rewarding aspects of my journey. We support each other and grow together.

[28:21] José Raúl Mangual: I think the themes of love and acceptance in CATS are universal. They resonate with audiences and create a lasting impact.

[28:31] José Raúl Mangual: I’m excited to see how my role as Rum Tum Tugger evolves. Each performance brings new challenges and opportunities for growth.

[28:41] José Raúl Mangual: The thrill of performing live is something I cherish. It’s a unique experience that allows me to connect with the audience in a profound way.

[28:51] José Raúl Mangual: I believe that every performance is a chance to tell a story. It’s about creating a shared experience that resonates with people.

[29:02] Mike Abrams: Demanding like it's physically demanding enough to do this let alone taking yourself out of like your own bed and the consistency of being in New York or whatever. It kind of goes in that you're changing constantly. So before I pivot to Royal Caribbean, yeah, what else on the tour? Did I not ask you about that? You want to talk about either favorite memories or like what's most stuff from your two years on tour that we should be diving further into? I feel like I'm not very good at steering things about myself, but inevitably when I answer a question, myself will leak in, you know?

[29:39] José Raúl: I'm not sure. I think, um, I randomly off the top of my head, Old Deuteronomy. I never got to go on for him, but actually, you know, Cats is a show that, should I be so fortunate, I would do for my whole life on and off probably playing Gus and Old Deuteronomy and Skimbleshanks and everyone in between. Um, Bombalurina, I'd love to play Bombalurina at some point. Maybe at the Performing Arts Center, Cats. They'll call me in for Bombalurina. I was called in for Tugger at one point, but I was on Mean Girls. Yeah.

[30:08] José Raúl: But anyway, Old Deuteronomy, um, the moment of happiness I think is such a gorgeous work of art melodically and the poetry. And I think that it is a testament to the feline experience. Okay, here we go. This, yes, I see myself as creeping in. There's so many things I could say. Okay, so let me finish this up about Old Deuteronomy. The moment of happiness, we had the experience but missed the meaning, and approach to the meaning restores the experience in a different form.

[30:50] José Raúl: So that alone is speaking about this cycle. We have this moment and that we have, you know, but when you look at it again and you really think about it, not only do you get to relive it, you get to learn something new about it. I mean, that's what's happening here in talking about Tora, for example. Beyond any meaning we could assign to happiness, beyond any meaning we can assign to happiness, the past experience revived in the meaning is not okay.

[31:18] José Raúl: Anyway, I could keep going, but I feel like I should stop now. But I encourage people to listen to that song and really think about what it means for them because I think it's really powerful. Beautiful. But that made me think of something else, which is that the feline experience is so—that is—that's how we can end this section. For six months after we finished Cats, literally, I would wake up and the first thing I believe most mornings, if not every morning, was I would have claws and I would like claw the surface of my blanket or my headboard and like that's how I would wake up my body.

[31:53] José Raúl: And that is so—that to me is a testament to—not everyone takes Cats this, you know, seriously, if you will, but it's the fact that being in Cats changed my own awareness and sort of claimed my own sensuality and my own perceptiveness in a way that I'm super grateful for and I don't intend to ever give up.

[32:24] Mike Abrams: I have heard from a few people that did the revival on the property revival that it took them like weeks to not have some of the movement that they were doing with like their hands and in certain ways that they move because it was so ingrained in what they were, you know, taught and were doing on stage that it took like a little bit to rest.

[32:43] José Raúl: Oh, I don't need to have that paw out or I don't need to like—I can become fully human again. It was kind of like almost a joke, but it was, yeah, you know, it's like the commitment to the craft of leaning into that and then it becomes muscle memory and then it's like you got to break it a little bit to kind of come back to leave the joke world and come back to the, you know, to earth and truly embrace it.

[33:06] José Raúl: Yeah, and actually that influenced a dual passion for me, which I don't know how far I'll go with it, but cognitive science and these sort of theoretical cognitive frameworks, right? Of human cognition. So like we think that we understand what it is to be human. We have an understanding, but to me that is a construct. It's a constructed viewpoint. We're learning more, especially contemporary science is learning more that where all of these measurements and modern science leads is cycling back to a lot of ancient knowledges about ancient scientific forms.

[33:46] José Raúl: So it's like being human, we think we understand what it is, but we're learning the people who are responsible for building the knowledge base on facts and things like that are coming to the understanding, oh, we've gotten a lot of things wrong. And it is entering this direction that we thought was just fiction or fantasy or sci-fi. I love that an 80s mega musical that I'm sure did not go into that level of thought or detail has sparked this thing for you. Like that's—I mean, that's honestly, it's really cool that like because there's no way Andrew Lloyd Webber and everyone in that room is thinking about that.

[34:33] Mike Abrams: Like they are putting a—I have a joke that I'm like, they're just drug-induced, you know, 80s making a mega musical. But there is—I mean, there was a lot of thought that went into all the different pieces of this. But it's so crazy now, 40, almost what, 45 years later that there are so many offshoots to that. It's such a beautiful part of where this has gone and where it continues to go and like the expansion of it. When I always think back to those moments of like, I guarantee you they didn't know that this could have been a thing from that, which is a lot of stuff that happens.

[35:07] José Raúl: Like, you know, that's what part of the art is.

[35:08] Mike Abrams: Oh, go ahead.

[35:09] José Raúl: I want to actually shout out Gillian Lynne because I just don't—she still is kind of slept on. Remarkably, right? But she really—I mean, I recently was looking back at YouTube videos of her maintaining the show. I think on Broadway, might have been the West End, but I think it was Broadway. This like little docuseries on YouTube and she was even saying then, she's like, yeah, some cast members think that I'm this like—I forget her wording, but they think that I'm just this old lady who's here to be mean to them and like, no, you're not doing that move right. And I know you're working very hard, but she's like, no, but she understood she probably was the primary motivator for being like, no, the felinity is what is going to make or break this.

[36:00] José Raúl: Like, it's easy to be like, I'm dancing so hard, singing so hard, but no, it's nothing without—it's not Cats without the felinity.

[36:08] Mike Abrams: Completely. Yeah, I mean, Julian, again, another legend. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[36:17] José Raúl: Oh, okay, we got to talk about Rogue Ruby because that is such an exciting thing. You're—yeah, we're recording this now in September. You go on the boat in November.

[36:20] José Raúl: In November, I fly to rehearsals in four days.

[36:26] Mike Abrams: Oh, wow. Okay, so you are literally about to get into it. I'm assuming you go down to Miami, right? Or you go to—

[36:32] José Raúl: Yeah, and you're going to rehearse and then like you were one of the earlier announcements, it seems like, in terms of being cast and so you're going on as Tugger and, you know, it's 90 minutes and it's a cruise audience. Having just got off a Royal Caribbean cruise myself a couple weeks ago where I saw Back to the Future, it's a different audience. Like it's a non-paid audience. They're a little bit more like—there's a lot more talking and there's a lot more—like it's not the best theater audience at all times.

[37:00] Mike Abrams: But what's your experience like? What are you expecting or what are you excited about about this?

[37:05] José Raúl: Are you excited to cut Bus for Jones?

[37:07] Mike Abrams: You know, I actually—

[37:09] José Raúl: Jokes, I love Bus for Jones so much.

[37:13] José Raúl: I'm pretty sure he's gone. He's gone.

[37:22] José Raúl: Yeah, so I'm sending him my goodbye over the four days coming up, but yeah, I—that's a good question. I hadn't really thought much. I think once or twice this had come to mind. But I do think that something that I was thinking about earlier, I'm always, you know, ruminating something and I was like, you know, if the question comes up about my Tugger, who also says Tugger, like what are what are your references?

[37:43] José Raúl: I was saying, I was like, oh, you know, I was given this name and this name and—but I don't—I think to answer your question, something that has been coming to mind is just the fact that Cats is technically a period piece, one could argue. Not only is it a period piece, but it is inherently a British piece before.

[37:59] José Raúl: So there are so many references that actually people are like, I have no idea what that is. You'll catch me in it right up to my ears if you put it away on the larger shelf. First of all, no one's going to know that most people won't even tell that I'm saying the larger shelf because that's not something that Americans ever hear, larger shelf. But then even if they do, they're like, well, what is a larger shelf?

[38:25] José Raúl: So a larger shelf was back when it was before—actually, I can't even say what's before, but people would take meats and cover them in lard to preserve them and they put them on this shelf in the UK. And so that's where that comes from. All that to say that it's like, well then how—and there are all these sort of arguable barriers to entry, then how can I usher the audience to what I'm so passionate about?

[38:51] José Raúl: And I was thinking about how Tugger, you know, his three words are preening, independence, and perverse. And one note on perverse, it's not about perversion as we have come to know it in today's day and age where one is like a, you know, a sick sicko in the head. It's just, you know, you told me to do one thing, I'll do another. So think like opposite, someone who's contrary, and if you will, yeah, it's the whole song.

[39:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah, exactly. It's in the song.

[39:20] José Raúl: That's, you know, that's what he is. And so, but in today's day and age, like I was thinking about the song Anything Goes, quote, "In olden days, a glimpse of stocking was looked on as something shocking, but now God knows anything goes." So back then they were remarking like, oh, you know, it used to be showing stocking, but now you can do anything. It's like, well, nowadays we have like Anaconda and WAP. We have these—

[39:42] Mike Abrams: So true.

[39:42] José Raúl: —the human body and its near nudity is not even—it's hardly controversial in some places. So like how do I reach the audience? And so that's what's on my mind. And like I don't really—I'm, you know, it made sense back in the inception of Cats that, you know, Mick Jagger and Elvis were primary influences. I think by today's standards, there are aspects to them which makes sense, but in some ways they aren't—they—some people might not bat an eyelash at that reference and it might even distance them from the story being told.

[40:18] José Raúl: So for me, it's like, you know, I'm feeling out what in my body and I think it's my job as an actor is to—there's way more rich information in one's authenticity than one could ever aspire to create out of thin air.

[40:35] Mike Abrams: There's so many—

[40:37] José Raúl: —there's so many more pure data points that just come at the drop of a hat when one is leading in full authenticity.

[40:43] Mike Abrams: I think that's life though. Like I wish that—I think we need that more than just acting. Like I think—

[40:49] José Raúl: I agree.

[40:49] Mike Abrams: —or of everybody. You should be just leading with authenticity and you'd get a better version of everybody's human. But you're right, like when you're trying to pull into something that maybe you're not, like if the character is so far from your inherent personality, you have to find the authentic version of that even if it is different from what would be your baseline or natural state.

[41:09] José Raúl: So I totally agree with that.

[41:12] José Raúl: And you know, just, you know, I'm geeking out over here. Like you said, who would have thought that in an 80s, you know, megamix musical would have this—or a mega musical would have this impact on the person, but that's because I'm following what brings me the most joy. That's why I'm here.

[41:30] José Raúl: But so, you know, he's pretty—so like, yeah, just like it's about the sensuality of my own body and like—and he, you know—

[41:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and like that's—

[41:40] José Raúl: —so and I think that that will do a lot of the work is like they're going to see a real being up there who is like not giving a fuck about anything else when it comes to their independence.

[41:55] Mike Abrams: Like what's right? I'm looking for homeostasis.

[41:59] José Raúl: Like he's freeing until he feels right.

[42:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah, you get—I mean like your role has—like Tugger's one of the few that has the ability to kind of like have some freedom and maybe mess with the audience a little bit more. Are they going to let you go out in the audience? Are you going to do Green Eyes? Like how much of this—like I have not been on a Royal Caribbean cruise to see Cats and I'm like, I want them—please invite me. So I'm going to ask you to tell your director, please invite me.

[42:28] José Raúl: But I'm like fascinated by not only cutting into 90 minutes, having to maintain an audience that's not a paid audience. Like that's such a—like it is a mind-blowing thing.

[42:34] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[42:40] José Raúl: And then also to do it on a ship, like it's already hard enough to dance Cats, whether it's a raked stage or not, to do it at sea with movement is fascinating. Like it's—I'm like excited to hear how you—I know we'll chat when you get a little bit further into doing it, but what that experience is like of are there days you have to almost cut certain movements because the waters too choppy or you have to like change choreography?

[43:10] Mike Abrams: Like you're adding an element that does not exist at, you know, in rural wherever of the country that you're doing, you know, an old theater. So maybe you got a—maybe it's a smaller stage or anything, but it is such a different production in its own way, but also so unique in that way that it's kind of a truly cool.

[43:33] José Raúl: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's definitely an element, which is fun and unique experience. I will not have experienced before. Actually, I was deciding between this and the Chicago Broadway tour. And I chose this because, well, for many reasons, but one big reason was that I will have a more stable life, which is kind of crazy to say. But on tour, sometimes your sleep is out of your hands. You have to wake up. You only get maybe five and a half hours of sleep because you got late and then you have to leave early in the morning. And I've done that for three years of my life now. And I have an understanding that that takes a big toll on me. And the changes of environments and the unpredictability on a cruise, there are lots of regulations and a lot of consistency, which maybe I'll prefer it.

I don't know. We'll see. Well, from what I've learned, I believe you're only allowed to do one year at a time and then you have to take a year off and then you can go back. So you can go another year on cruise.

[44:35] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So, OK, let's do some rapid fire here because we've got to get back. I know you've answered the million dollar question, but we're going to make you answer it again. But before that. Yeah. Yeah. One night. Who could you who would you want to go on for as cats?

[44:48] José Raúl: Oh, it's just between Bob and Demeter. It's between I guess I would say, especially since I'm going to be Tugger, I'll say Demeter.

[44:57] Mike Abrams: OK, I would love to see your Bombelia in it. I think that would be so cool. Yeah, I hope there's I wish I want to see a world where that is like I've seen some male identifying grizzabillas like that just happened in a regional theater. Well, I'm ready. I'm ready for for your bomb.

[45:14] Mike Abrams: OK, favorite and least favorite cat from a personality standpoint.

[45:18] José Raúl: From a personality standpoint. Oh, hmm. Oh, hmm. Least favorite is probably Skimbleshanks, I feel like it's controversial. He's just so he's he's quite tedious and he will profess his successes in a way that I'm like, what are you compensating for? I don't know. OK, probably throw me off. Favorite. That is really maybe I don't know, maybe MonkaStrap for some reason, maybe Play-Doh. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. Favorite song in the show.

[45:58] José Raúl: Look, cavity, the Mr. Mistoffelees. That's my that's my answer right now. Still, which cat do you think would be the best cruise director?

[46:03] Mike Abrams: The best cruise director. How is this one fun one? And since you're about to get on the boat, who would you want leading you?

[46:13] José Raúl: Probably Skimbleshanks. Yeah. OK. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. But I was also like maybe MonkaStrap, because I think Skimbleshanks is too on time and too regimented that like there's a little bit less cruiser supposed to be fun, like you're supposed to enjoy yourself. I feel like he might take some of that fun away. Skimbleshanks begging for a mutiny.

[46:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah. OK. All right. I know you've answered this before because we asked everybody on the 100th episode, but I want to change. Oh, it's change. OK. Yeah. So I want to hear who's your choice and why. And then I want to know why. What made you change your mind?

[46:46] José Raúl: Sure. So my choice is is Grizabella.

[47:01] Mike Abrams: Oh, no. What is it? Why has it changed? Like what's what's brought you back on to this incorrect choice?

[47:06] José Raúl: Oh, you know, I've remembered multiple times with with an internal cringe that I said Old Deuteronomy should be a Jehovah's Witness. And now there's merit to that answer. Certainly. Certainly there is merit to that answer. And I just think that my answer of Old Deuteronomy was not based in the story of Cats itself and was more speaking about the importance of leadership and leadership. Yep. I think that my answer is Grizabella because I thought a lot about this. And Gus, of course, is the sort of logical answer. But the reason that I don't think it should be Gus and should be Grizabella is because Gus is actually OK. And I don't have a lot of answers. I have more questions, but or provocations, if you will.

Like, I think that Gus has had a first of all, he's he's imparting wisdom onto the tribe already. These newbies, these kittens are meeting him for the first time, some of them. And they're hearing what what what what a paragon of felinity can be when you commit your whole life to something that you're passionate about. And yeah. And so they get to see that and understand that. And in fact, he he might not. This might be his ninth life, as I know people have said before. Maybe, you know, and if he was to pass, I think that he would be he would be OK with it in a way. Whereas Grizabella, it's important, you know, she the twelve lines Monkestrap's in the beginning of the show, he Jellicle cats meet once a year on the anyway.

I don't want to say that. But the whole point is that they're waiting. They're picking somebody who's going to return, going to come back to a different life. And Grizabella made so many mistakes in this life that if she if this were to be how she goes out, like how how respectful is that to one of our Jellicles to to have shunned her in her lifetime? And then at the very end, because otherwise, if she's not selected, then they do come back and they touch her. But accepting her into the tribe to me in that moment when Old Deuteronomy ushers to Monkestrap, yes, you do have to accept. Yes. I don't think he's telling him to accept it, but he's saying you can. You know, she made a good point. Monkestrap, Chrissy said, actually, that Monkestrap there when he admits Grizabella back into the tribe, that is Old Deuteronomy's confirmation that he is ready to lead the tribe. Yeah. So I think that it's very deep. It's very deep.

[50:11] Mike Abrams: That's interesting, because I think we say a lot of the same things, but I think where you're saying that she needs to be reborn is where I say, no, she needs a year with the family. And it's all merging at the exact same moment where it's like, I don't disagree with that, the story, the lyrics and all that stuff. I think it all kind of boils down to what you think the selection actually does and what the Heaviside Layer does.

[50:40] José Raúl: Right.

[50:40] Mike Abrams: And that's so unclear to me. And it's not stated, but some of it's like watching Taylor and younger Grizabellas being like, they're not ready to go. She just finally got welcomed back, give her a year, send somebody else who can then come back. And there's this generational piece where to your Gus's point, somebody else can impart wisdom next. Maybe that's Grizabella next year. She can share her experiences now that she's had a year with her family and she's healed a little bit and then she can go as the next one. I just, that's where I get lost in this argument is the, and I, again, this argument started really as a joke initially, but when I've like really dug down and talked to people and thought through it, it's the idea that like, you have to be bought into that. She's not going to live another year. Like she's going to die otherwise.

[51:37] José Raúl: Yeah.

[51:37] Mike Abrams: And I mean, again, like at that point, I guess I could take that argument, but I'm like, this whole welcoming back is so part of the story and heartfelt of like her whole family finally agrees to embrace her and then poof, we're just going to send her away. You know, like that feels so like if she, unless she can't physically do it anymore, which it could be the case, but that's where, that's where I break in this argument for most people.

[52:03] José Raúl: Well, that's a good point. Um, what you said about her physical capacity to go on. Um, it is, it is canonical again, top down from Chrissy that when she reaches out, um, toward the ground before she falls to the floor and still above things, sunlight, there's a treason, you know, et cetera. That is her begging the ground to come up and meet her because she can't stand anymore. And the ground won't even meet her.

[52:31] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[52:31] José Raúl: So she drops and she's like, just make me one with the soil at this point. And then after she's done singing and when she exits, that is her, Chrissy says that she's at the edge of a cliff.

[52:43] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay.

[52:44] José Raúl: And yeah. Yeah. Okay. Also something that I was thinking about is, oh, were you going to say something?

[52:50] Mike Abrams: No, no, go ahead.

[52:51] José Raúl: Is that interestingly, structurally of the show itself, we, so like we can't, as of yet, no one has the authority to rewrite what is, what has been written. And so then just purely from, uh, a plot standpoint, Gus, we only meet him, um, at the top of act two, really. But Grizabella, we see her multiple times in the show and we see her being rejected by the entire tribe and even, uh, made fun of to her face pranked and they, they rubbed their scent on her in an aggressive way. Like, so I think probably just because she already exists previously in the show, it is probably more impactful still for her to be chosen because we have seen her suffer as the audience from like a, you know, a more just technical evaluation standpoint.

It probably makes more sense that she has chosen, but I don't know, or maybe that's just why she continues to be chosen. But as you said, multiple times, it would be really interesting to see what happens if someone were given license to elect a different.

[53:58] Mike Abrams: I, it's one of my biggest takeaways from the beginning of this, this conversation is we need more, we need more variations like ballroom cats and all this stuff. Like it's, it's kind of, I, my biggest ballroom cats is so well done. Like that was just incredibly well done, but it also opened up this, like, there's a way to stay true to the music and the musical and the story and tell it in a different way. And that just showed that there's that opportunity. And I think like, that's exciting. I think that's also what is exciting for theater in general is that there is now the ability to maybe take on some of these things that you thought were rigid in their way and re-imagine them. And I hope more like, I haven't seen it yet, but I'm going to see Masquerade soon. And so like, I'm excited to see what they do with Phantom. Like it's again, it's still Phantom, but it's a different telling of it. So I'm glad that more things like that are happening.

[54:51] José Raúl: Yeah. And me too. And I was just visualizing as you were speaking, and I realized that we never say that there's no text that says Grizabella is chosen. So, and we already are reinterpreting the choreography, you know, people have the authority to do that to, to some degree. So what if as Grizabella, they can, she can still be touched. Welcome to the tribe. She can go through the whole train of the cats. And then at the very end, she can even be ushered up and then she has license. What if she wants to stay and she reaches out and elects somebody else?

[55:26] Mike Abrams: Oh, that would be so powerful.

[55:30] José Raúl: I, so that's, that's kind of the core of my argument. And it's a lot of it is because there's been a few regional productions, other productions where they have implicitly said that ex-cat is her daughter, Cassandra Sillabob, whichever one you want to pay. I think it was Sillabob the most recent one I saw. And that to me even amplifies it. Like, here you are, your daughter welcoming you home. And then it's like, all right, bye. You know, like, that is like, she needs you now. Like she wants that relationship back. And so that's even made it even more for me, but we could go on for another two or three hours. And I'm sure like you're now four days from about to start thinking about this in detail again, which I'm excited for you, but how can people stay in touch with you on social media? And, and then I'll also link the Royal Caribbean. So if you go between probably November and what, October, how long are you on the boat till?

[56:17] José Raúl: November, I think I start performing probably the latter end of November, maybe last week of November through to June 12th.

[56:29] Mike Abrams: June. Okay. So if you go on Royal Caribbean Oasis of the Seas, you've got probably a couple of chances during your week or four days or whatever the different variations are to see, to see your tugger.

[56:40] José Raúl: Yes. Come through. I'd love to have you. And what's your social media?

[56:47] José Raúl: Yes. So my Instagram is Jose Raul, Jose Raul. So that's J O S E R A U L I I I three letter I's as in like the third, you know, Jose Raul, I, I, I, uh, I also have a website. It's Jose Raul.org.

[57:04] Mike Abrams: We will link that too for you. Um, this has been so fun. I'm so excited that you're getting to go back. Like I knew when we were chatting that this was, uh, I was glad we were able to talk about it too. Cause I knew it was in the works. So, um, so excited for you, um, get to relive now from 14 to today, uh, cats continues. Hopefully like you said, you're going to do Gus and bomb and all the other ones. I'm in your life, but, uh, but this was a great and fun conversation.

[57:34] José Raúl: Likewise. I had such a great time. Thank you for having me. And thank you for continuing to keep this alive. Really? I'm still, still going here. So thank you. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died. The podcast breakdown, the cash fee to follow along, you subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, or anywhere you listen to podcasts, follow us on social media, The Wrong Cat Died or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.