This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. Someone shared a very interesting post she made about performing as Grizabella during the City Springs Theatre Company production of Cats in 2023. And I cannot wait to dig deeper into the story. So welcome, Jalise Wilson. Thank you for joining me.

[0:34] Jalise Wilson: Thank you for having me.

[0:35] Mike Abrams: I will get into that post because it's such a unique part that I've not had anybody talk about. But I don't want to spoil that kind of like mini surprise. But let's start. I always start at the beginning. Cats history. So you did in 2023, you're Grizabella. Before that, how much did you know about Cats?

[0:53] Jalise Wilson: Honestly, zero.

[0:56] Mike Abrams: Zero. Nothing.

[0:57] Jalise Wilson: Nothing. I knew it was a musical. Obviously, I studied musical theater at the University of Michigan. So my knowledge of musicals was pretty intense. But no connection to the musical did not grow up watching it, listening to it, nothing.

[1:12] Mike Abrams: So not the 1998 movie. You probably knew "Memory," though, right? Like you at least have the basic knowledge.

[1:17] Jalise Wilson: The basic knowledge of Cats. I would not say that that was a song on repeat in my household. I'm originally from New Orleans. Jazz, blues, how I grew up until Hurricane Katrina brought me to Atlanta. And then that's actually when I became exposed to musical theater. So I had a very short introduction into musical theater before I pursued it in college.

[1:37] Mike Abrams: Wow. So not much knowledge. And you go to Michigan to study and get your degree. Obviously, Michigan is not doing Cats, I don't think.

[1:46] Jalise Wilson: No, it was definitely not doing Cats. Not when I was there. It's still a very classical musical theater program first, some of the more modern musicals second.

[1:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. It's a very well-known program. Because recently even, I mean, there's been a lot of incredible people that come out of that program. So it's super well-known and sought after as a program. Maybe I need to get them to do Cats. I need to get them to kind of do a production.

[2:14] Jalise Wilson: Maybe.

[2:15] Mike Abrams: Okay, so you then fast forward to 2023. And this comes up, and you're going to audition for it. Is this one that you're just like, Am I going to do this? Or is there some excitement to audition for it?

[2:27] Jalise Wilson: Okay, so originally, I was not going to audition for it. At that time, I was working as the Artistic Casting Associate at City Springs. So I was a part of the whole process from audition submissions to the in-person auditions, seeing just a ton of talent come in the door. So I actually had a unique lens viewing this show. I was seeing it firsthand from behind the scenes. And we had a lot of lovely women, talented women come in to sing for Grizabella. And it's just Bayek was like, let's just keep looking. Let's just keep looking. And then she just looked at me. I was like, Jalise, can I hear you sing now? I mean, she knows that I'm a singer. She knows my background. I worked with her on A Chorus Line.

That was the first show I worked with her as a casting associate with her. She's like, can I just hear you sing that? Because the arc of "Memory" is at such a peak in a lot of people's voices that sometimes you have storytelling throughout the song of "Memory." And then when you get to that climax of the song, so many people focus on their vocals, and then the storytelling sometimes gets lost, just through that anxiety of like hitting that note the way they want to hit it. But for me, "Memory" sits in such a sweet spot in my voice that when I got to the climax, I just was able to soar. So it was really just an impromptu singing around the keyboard after we finished auditions that day. And she was like, I just want to hear you sing it.

And then I think maybe that night or the next morning, they were like, so what do you think about exploring being a part of this musical? And I was like, well, one, I would be freaking honored. Yeah. One to do a musical with Bayek as a director. I just think that's a dream come true. Two, I never would have thought that I would have been in this show. I always thought that Grizabella was a character who was a little bit older. And then I don't know, you know, further into the podcast, I guess we could talk about, you know, Jacob Brent and his description of Grizabella, but she's not older. So yes, I was kind of just thrown into the musical, but I'm super grateful for it.

[4:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. It's such a cool story, though. But just the, you're working on it already, you're already doing stuff. And then it's just like, hey, by the way, I know you got this song in you. Will you quickly just do it? Does that make it easier or harder that you kind of were almost thrown off guard with the like, just come sing this versus the prep of auditioning and being ready to go in?

[5:02] Jalise Wilson: I think it, for me in that moment, I felt like it was harder because I'm like, okay, they just want to hear this voice. I'm like, will I be able to hit it? Will I be able to sound pretty in this moment? Will this be like, nope, she didn't do it. Let's keep looking. Or will this be like, oh, okay, we can work with this. Like, you know, so it was a moment of anxiety because it's also me singing for Bayek and wanting to have this opportunity. You almost don't know you want an opportunity until it's presented to you. And you're like, okay, yeah, now I kind of do want this opportunity. Where is this going to go?

[5:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting, too. I mean, it's just like, what I love about this show is that there's so many unique kind of angles and kind of the fun parts. And then it's being done regionally a lot right now. So everyone's getting the opportunity to explore in a different way and slight tweaks. And I love that. And so many people get to put their hands on it, which is such a cool part of a thing that's been so legendary. But you mentioned one of the legends came to your rehearsal. So you had Jacob Brent come. Timing wise, I'm trying to remember if this was either right before or right after I actually talked with him and had our episode because I had him on around the same time. And I remember a lot of it was centered around that, which is he was going to a lot of different places of like, he was brought in all the time to be like, Okay, come into the rehearsal and tell us the lore and tell us the story.

[6:31] Jalise Wilson: Yeah. So what was that experience like for you? I mean, obviously, you weren't the 1998 movie super fan that like, everyone knows him from, but he's also one of the most knowledgeable people on Cats to come in and sit around the circle and tell you the story.

[6:43] Jalise Wilson: I think that moment for me was very enlightening. I think just from me, Cats has two sides of it, you have super fans, and you have super not fans. And I don't find a lot of people that's in between with it. But for me, storytelling is so huge. And I think that there is storytelling in everything that we do and everything that we say in every song that we sing. And I think Jacob Brent was able to highlight that for me because I think you find so Oh, Cats are just a bunch of cats on stage singing. And I'm like, No, it's not it. And he connected the dots. And he made every movement make sense on stage. He made every eye that you caught on stage have a story behind it. Because that's how you get to the depth of the musical without people thinking it's just a whole bunch of cats on stage just singing random songs.

Because I don't think that that's what it is. And I think Jacob Brent did such a good job at connecting those stories for people when he came in that it just elevated our stories because Bayek is already such a big storyteller. We did a lot of method acting in the beginning, they brought in kittens and cats for us to play with, which I am not a cat person in real life. My only experience with the cat was when I was five years old, I had a piano teacher who had about 17 of them that would just sit on the piano while I was playing and I'm like, but no, working with him and talking with him and, and getting stories from his lens really helped. He actually assured in me that Grizabella was never meant to be an old cat.

People are usually you're not old enough to play Grizabella. He's like, Oh, she's not old. She's just seasoned. She has lived life before life. She had time to live life, if that makes sense. She did all the things too soon in her life. So she looked worn down, but she's not an old woman. And he wanted to make that very clear to the cast. And he wants to make that very clear to me.

[8:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. The couple of things you said, I think are so true and interesting about this. One is, is that there is such a story in Cats that is really hard to pick up if you just see it once. And that was where for me, this show is really amplified that because the first time I saw it, I like stories. I like sitcoms. I like the idea of like a neat and tidy plot, bringing me together. And that showed the show doesn't give it to you at all. But when you go back multiple times, or you hear people talk about it, or you see different things happening on stage that you might not notice because your eyes fixated to one cat today, maybe something is happening on the other side of the stage tomorrow.

There's so much story that it's just not, it's like, like you said, there's a super fans and there's, those are the people that know and get the story. And then there's the super not fans who probably saw it once or saw the 2019 movie or, you know, saw some variation where they just didn't dig into the story. Theater is also subjective. Everyone likes certain things and don't like certain things. So no shame to the super not fans. But the other part that you said is I, the Grizabella arc is so interesting because it was very much a, it felt like it was supposed to be portrayed older. And I think it was Jacob and a couple other people have always said, especially as you get national tours where you're not going to get an older person, you're going to get probably somebody in their twenties doing it or young thirties is, is that it's not age for Grizabella.

It's the experience. And that experience is when she leaves the tribe, she comes back with a lot of experience, maybe forced upon her at a young age. What did Jacob or in general in the process tell you though, do they answer the question for you of where she went before she comes back?

[10:36] Jalise Wilson: I think it's just insinuated that she went off, you know, with the villain cat Macavity and, you know, lived life, whether that's a street walker cat, undefined, yeah, undefined, but something along the red light district, you know, that's, she wears her heels and she has those red painted nails and yeah, she's the glamour cat, but she also kind of took that glamour to nightlife street life. It's kind of what's insinuated of like what that journey may have been for her and, you know, with trying not to get too specific to let each actor and let each Grizabella, I'm assuming play it, develop that story for themselves, whatever that may be.

[11:19] Mike Abrams: What was your version?

[11:22] Jalise Wilson: For me, I absolutely agree with that. Like someone who left the tribe because she felt like she was the star and could go off and do more and do better and getting caught up with the wrong crowd, the wrong guy. I did buy into that version of the wrong guy and having to return. Now I did tie in, in, in my pregnancy with that, like, you know, I couldn't ignore, can I drop that now? Yeah, let's get, let's get into it. Okay. Yeah. I couldn't ignore the fact for me that I was playing Grizabella while also pregnant. And so for me, I had to allow that piece of me to layer into my version of Grizabella. And for me, it's like, oh, I went off and, and got impregnated. And then I needed to come back home because there was no one that was going to take care of me and, and my, my cat, my baby and take care of my baby where I was at. I didn't belong there anymore.

[12:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And so this is what I tease in the intro, your post talked about, you know, performing as Grizabella while pregnant. But I think the part that I'm like, most interested is reading that post is you talked a lot about how the lyrics of "Memory," like kind of were super impactful at that time in your life. So can you, can you talk a little bit about that?

[12:39] Jalise Wilson: Yes. I just felt like "Memory," she was playing with her past, her future, her past, her future. "Memory" goes back and forth, back and forth, both the first version, the reprise, it just continues to filter between both worlds that she had. And so for me, like daylight, I must wait for the sunrise. I just felt like she was waiting for her new season in life. And, and whether that meant the tribe was going to accept her, she just needs to continue to walk a new journey, not for herself, but for what was brewing. And that's what was keeping me going as Grizabella. That's what brought, I think Grizabella lyrics can sometimes just sit in such a gloomy place all the time, a gloomy place in all the time.

But what, and sometimes it's like, oh, well, she was really is longing for this afterlife. She's longing for this afterlife. But for me, what gave the story a bit more depth and what gave the story a bit more light is that I was not longing for an afterlife for me, it was a greater purpose. It was to make sure that my baby is okay, is to make sure that my baby feels loved, that my baby feels touched. And so like, "Touch me." It's so easy to leave me that like, "Touch me." It's so easy to leave me. But if you touch me, you're going to feel what's, what's happening inside of me. Cause I feel it. I can't even ignore it anymore. And so it was those moments that I'm like, okay, this has a deeper meaning for me. And I had to lock in on that.

[14:10] Mike Abrams: Does that so much of the story though, is about Grizabella being reborn into a new life and basically ending this life and as pregnant, like being pregnant, like you're, you're at a moment where you're going to have this, like such a happy moment in your life, like this life changing moment. You don't want to leave though. Right? Like, is there like, how do you, how do you think about that?

[14:39] Jalise Wilson: So, okay. So for me as an actor playing Grizabella, I had to believe that she needed to leave. I had to buy into that to carry the story that I was carrying. Um, and I think for me,

[14:54] Jalise Wilson: How I justify that is like, one life has to end for another life to begin, whether that's theoretically, whether that's physically, however that feels for whoever is receiving it. But I just felt like one life has to end for one to be born. And I have to shed this skin so that there can be space for what's next to come.

[15:20] Mike Abrams: Okay. Interesting. We'll get into that at the end, depending on who you vote for. By thinking a little bit more further into the relationships that you played, there's a lot of kind of unknowns with Grizabella. I think it's fairly well believed that she left to go work with Macavity in some way. He's the reason she left. There are some productions recently that have said that she already has a daughter in the tribe, and that's part of she's coming back. There's some other theories that maybe like, she leaves with the Rum Tum Tugger, because I think in some productions, he's also not on stage in the opening number for part of it with her. What relationships did you play? And did that change at all since you were thinking about bringing a new life into the world?

[16:09] Jalise Wilson: Okay, so yes, I've heard all those theories. These are something that we explored as well when we did some of our roundtable discussions, just about cat relations in the show. Rum Tum Tugger, yes. We had a little playtime on stage where he would just like, at me, or just do certain things. Our story was that we both felt like we were stars, and we both went to be performers, not dating. We did not take into that line. In our production, we definitely kept it as Grizabella most likely had a relationship with Macavity, a physical relationship. But with Rum Tum Tugger, they were like buddies. They were like, we're going to be stars together. We're going to be friends together. And then Grizabella just became very self-absorbed.

And so where Rum Tum Tugger still had that lighthearted energy, he would go be a star, but he'd come back and be with the tribe. So they received him more in his stardom, in his egotistical ways. But in him and Grizabella, he thought that they were really good friends, like we were in this together, and she just thought that she was above the program. So that's kind of a relationship dynamic that he and I played when we were in the production together. It would always be just side eyes and bad energy from him whenever we would cross paths on stage. We did not fully play around with the idea of me having a child in the tribe. It was a hint. It was hinted at, oh, maybe Victoria, the white cat, is actually her child.

We didn't fully explore that. But I do think, for me, what I fully explored and what I fully fed into in the production is how the young cats really received me. And for me, in the moment of where I was in my life personally, I truly do believe that children bring about a new innocence into the world. And so knowing that I was nurturing and growing a new baby in my stomach, it made me receive the kittens on the stage in such a nurturing way. And I love that that's how our production did it, too. Every time Victoria, the white cat, would see me, she would embrace me or just long to touch me, long to touch me, long to touch me. And then the fact that Jemima is the one who sings the verse with me in "The Last Memory," another kitten who really doesn't get a lot of playtime on stage, but I think it's such a sweet moment that that's the kitten they choose to sing with Grizabella. It just highlights the innocence of youth. And I just think that that's really important.

[19:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's the character that a lot of productions have played with as Grizabella's child. Is that Jemima or Silabub, whatever they call it in the production. Because of that, singing that lyric, and because of being usually one of the first ones to go up at the end before "Memory," that that would be potentially... I do think the innocence of the kittens is an interesting part, too, because there's this, they don't know... There's also in some situations where they might not actually know who Grizabella is, besides the lore of Grizabella. What Demeter and Bombalurina or Jennyanydots have tried to shield from them, but then also have their own curiosity to want to know what's happening.

[19:45] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, I think that's the beauty of youth and their innocence. And that's the depths of Cats that I think a lot of people don't see, because like you said, if you don't see it multiple times, you're like, what's going on now? Because it is just a lot of cats swarming the stage sometimes, depending on how you receive it. But yes, that's so important, because I just think that it's a clever way of storytelling to do it that way. And even if you try to explain something to kids, kids only see what they see. And so it showed you right there that the fact that all the young kittens wanted to be around Grizabella, wanted to touch her, wanted to embrace her, there was a light in Grizabella that they were seeing. That sometimes as adults, as teenagers, we become so jaded with the world. We don't need we, we get in our own way of forgiveness, we get in our own way of seeing someone's true colors.

[20:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah. There's so much depth to this.

[20:40] Jalise Wilson: And so much depth. I'm like, and this is not, I'm like, I'm like, is this too deep? Is this too deep? Because I'm like, I like to have fun. But Grizabella is such a deep story. It's not the fun role. It's like, it's the fun role, because it's the princess track, you come on stage, maybe just two or three times. But it's deep. Yeah, you got to come on stage ready to dive into some deep feelings.

[21:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[21:05] Jalise Wilson: Yeah.

[21:05] Mike Abrams: What was that? I mean, this, again, someone who didn't know that much about Cats coming in, what was, what was it like piecing all this together? Like, you know, this isn't like, you know, The Sound of Music or Grease. And I'm thinking some of the other ones I've seen recently, where it's like, all right, these are, these are the stories are pretty well defined. And everyone knows them. Like, this is one where I think a lot of people that are fans know it. But a lot of people are just like, Oh, yeah, they're cats. And they don't realize the depth. Yeah. So what was your depth of it?

[21:34] Jalise Wilson: Such a beautiful experience for me. I think being my, my artistry in my artistic history has always been like a musician first, I consider myself a musician first. I'm just being from New Orleans, being a jazz singer, a gospel singer, I like to have control over how I tell my story through song. Because I do feel like I tell story through song. And I think beginning my career in theater, I love theater, but I sometimes feel like the story is already told for you. I feel like you got the script, you have the lines, you have the song there. It's a system. That's musical theater. It's a beautiful system. But sometimes you, it doesn't leave much room for interpretation. It doesn't leave much room for you to develop your own story.

I think that's why I fell in love with Cats. And I'm hate that I didn't know much about it before this production. But now I love it. And I would love to do this show over and over and over and over again as Grizabella as many times as I'm allowed once I'm back in my performing era. But I felt like for the first time in a long time, I felt like I was in a musical where I could be the musician that I've always been as a young girl, I could take this journey and I could sing this song in such a way that tells a story in my heart, without using lines to do that for me without having a voice that someone else wants me to have as a character and then go into a song. It's my voice. And I feel like that's the beauty of this musical.

So I would sit backstage and I would listen. I never zoned out, I would listen to what was going on on stage, I needed to stay connected because of how sparingly Grizabella appears. I needed to stay connected with the songs that really tell my story. So like "Macavity," I'm not in that song. Love that song that Demeter. Is that Demeter? Demeter and Bombalurina. Love that song. But I had to stay tuned into that song because something about that song also informs Grizabella. She had an experience that Grizabella had. And I don't want her to have the life that Grizabella had. So I need to continue to make appearances so these cats can see me so that they can do better than me so that they can be better than me.

So just staying in tune really helped me continue to tell the story when I went on stage so that I didn't feel like I was starting from scratch with every song or with every entrance. I needed to keep the energy going to the end.

[24:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. If you get cast again to do this, you said you want to do it over and over and over again, do you think your performance or your story changes if you're doing it now not pregnant?

[24:28] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, absolutely. And that's gonna be the fun part. I mean, I don't know. I think it would have to be very cast specific, very like character development specific. I do think now as a mom, just my artistry lens, just my spirit, my soul is just very, very different. Just my level of protection, just about doing what's right in the world and like doing right by people in the world. There's so much about you changes when you become a mom that I always say, you know, I'm heavy in my mama era right now, but the mama artistry singer era that's going to emerge, it's just gonna be a completely different story to tell. The song is gonna be a different song to sing. I even go back and sing songs now and they don't feel or mean the same because there's another layer that's added on to it.

And I think for me, what would change specifically would be that I'm not pregnant anymore. I am now realizing this new world. So I think that's how I was able to make that reflection. When I was in the moment of Cats being pregnant, I wasn't sure what was going to come out on the other side of being a new mom. So I was holding on to all these memories like, oh, I'm performing still and things like that. Guess what? I haven't been in a musical since I've done that show. I don't know if I put a timeline on when I was supposed to get back into a musical after having a baby, but I haven't done one. And I think that's not something I would have thought about in that moment, being pregnant while doing Grizabella.

But now singing "Memory" will have a completely new meaning for me because what are my memories? What am I holding on to? Do I want to go back there or do I want to move forward? Do I want to be ascended into a new world because I don't ever want to be associated with pre-mom Jalise? I don't know. The layers can be thick. I don't know.

[26:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Oh, there's, it's so interesting because there's so much there. And I think it's such a beautiful part of theater in general. And then also of this story is, is that there's a lot of the lore of Cats I've learned 200 plus episodes in as I've talked to people is less about like direction from a director of like, you all should be here and there. And a lot of like, no, that was my best friend in college. And now they're in a character that's probably not supposed to be by my best friend, but we can't not have some type of relationship or your experience of like your Grizabella being delivered at a moment in time. That's so personal and impacting the, like the way you're thinking about it is how some of like, that's how so much of this story gets told in all these different productions and why I think there's such lore of Cats, because you have the freedom to do that and that you don't have in other shows, like you mentioned.

[27:22] Jalise Wilson: It's the freedom. Yeah. It's the freedom. And I think it's a brilliant experience for performers. The hard thing is, is it's so specific. The casting needs to be so specific. And I think for me, that's why I never even thought I would associate myself with this musical because I'm little, I'm petite, I'm a vocalist, but I'm not a dancer first, not that type of dancer. Yeah. I would never be cast as a dancer in Cats ever. That's just not a show for me. So when you, you cut that out, then, you know, that only leaves one role for a person like me. But I definitely feel like it's a role for me and it can continue to be a role for me. I mean, as a vocalist, as a singer, our voices just develop with time and it just gets better and better and better, to be honest.

But, you know, sometimes being petite, I got to be realistic. I've worked behind the table being petite and young looking. I do have a very young face, even though I am on the older, old, but you know, I'm not young either. But it's hard. You start typing yourself out of shows because that's just the reality of theater. You type yourself out of shows before you even give yourself the benefit of the doubt that you can do it.

[28:35] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's, it's kind of almost funny too with Cats because Cats has always, I'll never forget this, but I had Will Rowland on the show because at BroadwayCon a couple of years ago, one of the, he was on a different podcast and they asked like, if you could perform in any show throughout your career, what would your answer be? And without pausing, he went Cats. And then he just like went through all the male Cats of like, you start as a kitten and then you're this and then you're that. And then you end up as Gus. And I think that Cats like has that ability to be able to like, start as the Jemima or Bombalurina, and then you get to do Bombay Lurina or Demeter. And then you get to do Jellylorum and Jennyanydots.

Like you have the ability to have it. And then you end up as Grizabella and there's not a lot of shows that are like that. There are some, and I think that's really fun. But I've also, the last episode I recorded, it was with Aaron Jenkins on the international tour in 2019 movie. He started talking even about how like, he's like, oh, and now I'm getting asked for auditions for this character versus that character. And it's like, oh, am I, am I in that part of my career now? You know, like, like, when do you, when do you have that? Which is always really a funny kind of conversation of like, oh no, I was like, when are you going to be Gus? Like, when are you going to end up being Gus?

[29:48] Jalise Wilson: The ability to do Cats, yeah, depending on who's on the creative team. It's up to their vision and totally, yeah. Only 'cause Cal York is a dancer lady, and those cats were dancing. Yeah, they were dancing. I was in awe, I'm not gonna lie, watching it. There was a moment where I appear at the Jellicle Ball at the very top. We kind of used like the original set. I appear at the top and peek down, and I mean that was probably my favorite time of the night because she gave me like a little move to do to pretend that I was like back doing it again, like just reliving my moment when I was in the tribe, and I was like, oh, I'm a dancer. I'm a dancer. I'm doing what they're doing, but it was one of my favorite moments every night in the production, just being on stage watching those cats dance their butts off. Yeah, what an athletic feat. First time I saw it, I said these are athletes. This is an incredible skill. Yeah, most of the public does not have.

[31:22] Mike Abrams: Okay, let's do some rapid-fire to get to our final question, which I feel like I might have to argue with you on. If you could go on one night for any cat, which character would you want to play?

[31:32] Jalise Wilson: Who? And go on one night for any cat? It doesn't matter if you can sing it, dance it, male, female, just if you could go on and have some fun, who would you want to be?

[31:42] Jalise Wilson: I like the Demeter character.

[31:47] Mike Abrams: Who are your favorite and least favorite cats from a personality standpoint? It's like who would you want to hang out with and who would bug you?

[31:53] Jalise Wilson: Okay, I would want to hang out with Rum Tum Tugger, super fun, and maybe Old Deuteronomy 'cause he's wise, and then I like the twins. Yeah, like a little party night. I want to hang out with them.

[32:10] Mike Abrams: Okay, what about what bugs you? Who would get on your nerves?

[32:18] Jalise Wilson: Jennyanydots. I wouldn't really want to hang out with Jennyanydots, I don't think.

[32:23] Mike Abrams: Okay, the tap-dancing cockroach teaching cat.

[32:31] Jalise Wilson: Okay, yeah, 'cause on stage she was so mean to Grizabella.

[32:34] Mike Abrams: That's true, that's the mother. Okay, we'll get into the Jellicle choice here in a minute. Okay, last two. Favorite song?

[32:39] Jalise Wilson: Favorite song is "Memory," hands down, whether I'm singing or not. No, 'cause I'm singing it.

[32:48] Mike Abrams: And then who do you think would be the best mother? Which cat would be the best mother?

[32:54] Jalise Wilson: Best mother? Maybe Bombalurina. Yeah, I think she's the cool one. I have Jolly Lorem, but I think Bombalurina's one of my choices. Yeah, I think so. She knows a little bit of both worlds, so she'll be a mom, but she's nurturing too. Yeah, the way she looks out for Demeter but also protects the kittens. She will be a good mom.

[33:17] Mike Abrams: Okay, fun. Yeah. Now this is the million-dollar question. I've argued that I don't think Grizabella's the right Jellicle choice, so I want to know for you, who's your Jellicle choice and why?

[33:27] Jalise Wilson: Well, we're gonna get to arguing because I really do think that Grizabella needed to be the one to ascend. I mean, and if I guess I was thinking it through, I would say maybe like Gus or Old Deuteronomy, but I feel like Grizabella lived her purpose. She had such an arc, even though without a young age or everything kind of happened so fast for her. I think sometimes the beauty or the unpredicted beauty of life is the fact that we've done enough even at a time when people don't think that we have and that we should continue. But I don't think that that was her purpose.

[34:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I do like that, that the done enough even though everyone else doesn't agree. I think where I still right now struggle is, and your story amplifies this even more, is that family, like family welcomes you back. You've been longing for that moment, and you get it, and then it's like, all right, cool, we're gonna now sacrifice you, you know? Like versus spend a year with the family, have that, and I think about you, like with being pregnant, in that moment where it's like you're about to have, like you finally have your family welcome back, you're about to have this life-changing moment, and it's like, no, we're gonna send you off. And I think so much of the argument depends on what you think the Heaviside Layer is because I don't disagree with the redemption story. I think she needs that more than anybody else in the tribe.

[34:58] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, but I think what she needs most is one more year with a loving family. And so send Gus or Old Deuteronomy or somebody else this year, and she can go next year. But I think sometimes when you, it's so weird, you can't lose your legacy sometimes because what happens if Gus or Old Deuteronomy leaves and there's no one fully prepared yet to take on the legacy to lead the tribe?

[35:28] Mike Abrams: That should be Munkustrap. That's the whole point of his.

[35:34] Jalise Wilson: No, but he's ready. I actually still think it's Gus. Okay, I think Gus has told his story. He's enjoying it, like he's living life still, but we all have those people that you're like saying they could hear another year. They're still kicking.

[35:43] Mike Abrams: Yeah, they're still kicking it. I think that's like, that's why I send them. Let's get, it's fine. It's time. There's, well, you go next year. You take one year with your family, have your kitten, have some birthday parties, like really enjoy that year of time that you get welcomed back, and then you can go right after.

[36:03] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, and I absolutely see it that way too. I think before, say if I was doing this show and I was not pregnant, I would be like, yep, I agree. She needs to be back. I just think that in that moment, one, being in the show and having to accept that that was the journey so that I can portray the story properly, and then beyond that, looking back, like now that I am a mom, I'm just like, I think once you become a mom, like you step outside of yourself. You no longer care to have everyone's approval. You just start to get a little bit more free with like your love. You get more free with like, I don't care what anyone thinks about me. I just care that my soul feels good. I wake up happy every day.

I think for me, that's how I feel about Grizabella. It's like she feels good. She's like, you know what? They accepted me. I feel good. My job here is done. What's next? Like I don't even want to go back and be here for a year. What's next? They've accepted me. I'm moving on. I just want to feel good about every choice that I've made in the past. No regrets, move forward, and now I just have to share something new versus spending a year, well, how was it back there? Well, what, well, how you feel now? I don't know. I just think of all the questions that they may ask her for a year of living is like, does she really want to answer all those questions or does she just want to move on?

[37:25] Mike Abrams: Okay, at peace knowing that like, all right, they love me now. They're gonna embrace what's coming back because I do believe the Heaviside Layer is like her shedding a layer, and I just like, it was making space for, I believe that my baby was going to be reborn. So I'm shedding a layer so that my baby can be amongst this tribe. So if I had to leave and make sure that this tribe loves my baby, here we are. And so I think that's one of the biggest differences in your argument versus the others is that I really struggle with if Syllabub or Jemima is already your child.

[38:05] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, and you know, and it could be that I felt like, you know, we're, I'm an artist here, so I could flip this so many different ways. It could be that, you know, I felt there because there was, as the show went on, the reason why I connected so much to Jemima slash Syllabub is that moment was really special for me. Storytelling through song is special for me. It could be a moment where that is my daughter, and then I'm having another baby, and I know that this baby is gonna be safe because I've connected with her. The love is there. I can leave. The two of them are in good hands, you know? It could be spun in so many different ways.

[38:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's beautiful. It's the beauty of art. That's my goal is to try to spin it in a different way here for somebody to take some creative liberty with it and go. But I've never argued against the redemption arc. I firmly believe that that's such an important part of the show and the message.

[39:00] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, my argument is with her going to the Heaviside Layer right away. I know you're like, nope, she needs to stick around. Give her some time. And so that's your choice.

[39:03] Mike Abrams: Gus is my choice for the choice that originally started this joke was I saw Leona Lewis, who's in the X Factor. They make boy bands, so I wanted Tugger and Mistoffelees to go together as a boy band, but that was mostly with a, we're picking a winner off of like, that's not a story of a redemption. That's everybody's song is a package that they put up before they sing their song, and then America votes at the end, or Britain votes at the end, and then they make a boy band because that's how One Direction and Fifth Harmony and all those other X Factor soloists became bands.

[39:37] Jalise Wilson: So that was my original thought. So do you think though these cats want to be chosen?

[39:43] Mike Abrams: I think the more so, the more I've, you know, if you would ask me this in 2019 when I started this show, I've been like, yeah, it's just a pop, you know, it's a, it's American Idol on drugs or X Factor on drugs. Now that I'm thinking and like truly analyzing it from the perspective and hearing so many different versions, I don't think every person is singing for their worthiness. I think some are truly trying to say this is why I should go. I think that's like Jennyanydots is that way. I think Gus is that way, like look at me, look at why you should pick me. I think there's like Tugger just is kind of disrupting. My go, Jerry Ruppel teaser are not singing for their opportunity to go. They are just causing chaos.

[40:25] Jalise Wilson: Yeah.

[40:25] Mike Abrams: So I think there's somewhere it's like they're just in the show to add a little bit to learning more about the tribe, the story, and the cats, and there are a couple that are like this song is their opportunity to say this is why I need to be picked.

[40:35] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, because there is a world that I've asked a lot of Old Deuteronomy's, which is if you're all-knowing, you know Grizabella's coming back, but what if Grizabella doesn't come back? And some Old Deuteronomy say that they actually don't think they knew Grizabella was coming back in the beginning of the show or the beginning of the night. And to me, then they had to have been thinking about who they were picking if this person, you know, this character doesn't come back and kind of disrupt in that last, it's really a moment of little memory where they're like, yes, I see now that Grizabella needs to go. Like that's the moment they feel it. But what happens if they don't come back? Do you send Gus? Do you send somebody else?

[41:22] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, and then I do think that that's where that, I then I do think Gus probably would have been the other choice had Grizabella not made her appearance back. That's right. It's my assumption based off of just the songs and storytelling.

[41:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, one thing I'm convinced on is that the original creative team never thought about this, and they had their story, they wrote it, and it was the 80s, probably some other. Now, yeah, I don't think that that layer and that level of depth went into a lot of this.

[41:59] Jalise Wilson: Yeah.

[42:00] Mike Abrams: But I think that's also the beauty of what they created is that it could, and they created a world where it could, and there are a few other things, and you know, the Hollywood and other stuff where I feel like that's the case. Yeah, and there's a lot of stuff where it's like, no, there's no level of interpretation. That's exactly what you saw.

[42:19] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, and I like it. I like that this conversation can happen.

[42:24] Mike Abrams: Me too. And I think that's what makes this show so special. I think that's what makes this show special for artists that get to experience it.

[42:29] Jalise Wilson: Yeah.

[42:29] Mike Abrams: Even though I'm experiencing it from the lens of a singer, and yes, I have to stay within some of the notes on the page and things like that, but I don't have lines dictating, and I think for the dancers, yes, they have numbers that they have to be very specific about, but then I know how much fun those dancers had on stage being able to like roll around and like make certain moves and do certain things with their body. Just the freedom that you have.

[42:51] Jalise Wilson: Freedom was such a good word that you used. This show is literally about freedom.

[42:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Well, this has been so fun. I know I'm not gonna change your mind, so we'll mark your vote as Grizabella. How can people stay in touch with you on social media or just say anything else here when you get back into the theater world?

[43:12] Jalise Wilson: I am on social media on all platforms, I guess Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, Jalise, J-A-L-I-S-E, underscore Jalise, J-A-L-I-S-E. That's it. That's me.

[43:28] Mike Abrams: Yes, so that is where you can find me. Like I said, I'm very much so in my mom era, but also in my artistry era, but more in like the mentor side. So I do a lot of appearances talking to high school theater kids, and I do a lot of private coaching, coaching kids for theater or pageants or confidence. So that's kind of the era that I'm in, but I still pop up and sing every now and again, and I will be getting back into theater sometime soon. But yeah, find me, follow me there.

[44:00] Mike Abrams: Amazing.

[44:01] Jalise Wilson: Yeah, and you know, if you know someone who is in the wants a speaker or something, reach out. You can come to the school and or to college or wherever and share your experience, which has been so fun to hear.

[44:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you again for coming on.

[44:21] Jalise Wilson: Thank you for having me.

[44:27] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, a podcast breakdown of the Cats mythology. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on social media at The Wrong Cat Died. Check our website, The Wrong Cat Died.