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[0:16] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Cat Satrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. I heard a lot about this production of Cats that was this past August at the Music Theater Heritage in Kansas City, but I did not get a chance to see it. I'm very bummed about not being able to go live, but I'm thrilled to have the director of this production, Tim Scott, with me today to discuss it. So, welcome, Tim, and thank you for joining me.

[0:37] Tim Scott: Hey, man. What's up? I'm glad to be here. I appreciate the opportunity. I loved it. I got sent a lot of clips and, like, I guess probably bootlegs or people that were doing, and then the video that you all put together. And there were some really cool choices that you all did, and I heard you talk a little bit about it, so we'll get into it, but I always like to start before this production with your Cats history. So, when were you introduced to this show? Were you obsessed with it growing up? Like, what was your Cats introduction?

[1:05] Tim Scott: Yeah, I hate Cats. I've always hated it. I didn't like anything about it. I think that when our organization decided to do it originally in 2018, so this production that just closed in August of 2025 was a remount of that 2018 production. And so, originally, when the organization decided to do that, I was not a big fan of the idea. I didn't think that we had the capacity to produce Cats. Of course, 2018 is before the Jellicle Ball and the circus adaptations. I didn't think we had the capacity to produce that show in a way that was kind of what I felt was the expectation, was the global expectation. If you see Cats, Cats looks, feels, sounds like a certain thing. And I didn't think we had, honestly, the financial capacity to produce at that level.

So, I said, I probably would be the perfect person to direct it because I dislike it so much, and I wouldn't do anything like what the conventional norms are for it. That was my introduction to it. I remember when we first started working on it in 2000, of course, I knew the music. Of course, I'm a huge Andrew Lloyd Webber fan. So, I knew the music. The music's obviously so great and so infectious and so dynamic. And so, I was a fan of the music. I should have qualified with that. But I remember when we were working on it in 2018, I was as an actor in a production of another show with a Tony-nominated Broadway director who will remain unnamed. And he asked me what I was doing. And I said, well, we're doing Cats, but we're not doing Cats.

He's like, oh, you're doing Cats Without Cats. And he very openly made fun of me, made fun of the idea. And so, I was a little kind of nervous, but I actually worked with that same director probably six months later after our production. And he said, how was Cats Without Cats? And I said, we sold out every production. So, that's my introduction to it. And I do think that it was, at the time, in 2018, nothing like what we did was being done. It's almost in vogue now when we revived it just in August. I'm like, well, everyone's doing it now. But in 2018, it was a real outlier. And even more so then, we had a lot of national attention on social media kind of questioning our choices because it was in such conflict with how it's usually done.

[3:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you say that because now it's like almost the norm. There's been so many different versions. And I think you said it with the Jellicle Ball and Circus Cats and Coaster Cats and all the other variations I've seen this past couple of years, honestly. But I do love that you mentioned that you kind of took – I saw this in the YouTube video, so we'll get right into it. You took the thing out that most people criticize, if you did it in 2018 and again this year, which is the cats costumes. And that's a choice on purpose to try to lend more to the story and the music. And so walk me through kind of that conversation of in 2018, how do you all decide, hey, we're going to kind of go a little rogue, that nobody's doing this. And then now it's like, hey, this is actually kind of happening a lot more. How are we going to adapt it into our version?

[4:25] Tim Scott: Yeah, I think philosophically what we do at MTH, Music Theatre Heritage, is we try to approach things through contemporary sensibilities, right? That's not a new idea that we try to provide the opportunity for the audience to see themselves in what we're producing on stage. And so we try to scrub away anything that's in conflict with that philosophy. So with Cats, the obvious conflict is no one's going to see themselves or relate to actors covered in yak fur or any kind of synthetic or authentic fur. And so we really wanted to remove that barrier. Our space, at least in 2018, it's a seven-row theater with 240 seats, full thrust. So you are immersed without us even trying to immerse you. So we know we had the opportunity of presenting Cats in a way that was already unlike most productions, because you're never going to see Grizabella walk within touching distance.

I mean, the proximity is just so powerful. And so that was kind of the foundation of our approach. We wanted to really have the stories be the star of the show and the choreography. At that time also, Cats is known for contemporary ballet and contemporary modern dance. And we didn't think that was authentic to the ethos of the story either. What we know is this is a band of misfit cats, right? Cats, I use air quotes, cats that meet at a junkyard at midnight. And we didn't think that contemporary ballet would be the vocabulary of that community. So we thought it would be more akin to street jazz and hip hop. And so again, in 2018, that was very different than most productions of Cats. So that's where we started from.

We started from how can we make this accessible in 2018 and of course 2025 to modern audiences that they can see themselves. It doesn't look like an antiquated piece. It doesn't look like a museum piece or even a theme park type of piece. I say that all respectfully. We felt like this interpretation and this presentation would allow people to see the themes that I've always thought were their themes of ageism and bullying and discrimination and community. That's the obvious one, community, right? But I think ageism is a really powerful theme in the play that most people may not see. And with our presentation, I felt like it was really upfront.

[6:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's the one thing, you know, you referenced Angelica Ball and I always thought when I first saw it, I saw one of their first early previews, that it took away the biggest criticism that the Cats haters had, which is like the kind of absurdity of the cats in costume and crawling around and everything. And it told the story in a slightly different vessel, but to me, in a little bit clearer way for a lot of the non-super fans or non-Cats fans. And it sounds like you're trying to do that same thing or did, you know, not trying. You did that same thing with slight tweaks and variations. So can you walk me through some of the other tweaks you all made? Like I did notice, I think I only counted 13 performers in a cast that's usually 30, right? The dance you said is very different. It does look like there's a little bit of the storytelling slightly different. Like what were some of those, like for people that didn't get to see it, what were those changes?

[7:45] Tim Scott: Yeah, you know, again, it starts with our philosophical approach in that, you know, we believe that theater is meant to be theatrical and not literal, right? So any kind of literal interpretations we try to shy away from because we don't think that's the power of the medium that's best suited in film and things of that nature. So we really try to amplify the storytelling aspect of theater. And that was part of the cast size. We wanted to be very transparent about the doubling and how the doubling happened. We wanted the people in the audience to see the doubling. We almost, again, it all stemmed from we're not trying to present these characters as anthropomorphic cats. We were really trying to say, no, these are human beings.

These stories are human stories. And so we would take on sensibilities where it needed to happen. But, you know, there are a lot of ancillary characters in Cats that really don't have heroic storylines, of course. So we try to center on the historic storylines. And we also tried to be very transparent and overt about the doubling and let the audience see the doubling happen so they really felt like they were watching something being made in front of them. I mean, in this day and age, I think that is the magic of theater. The magic of theater is showing people the secret sauce and how it's all done and not trying to hide it and letting you know this one actor is playing four characters. We're never trying to hide that because I think that's what's so special and unique about theater. And if you can let the audience in on that, I think that's a very powerful and compelling tool that is unique only to theater.

[9:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's so true. And I think that the live production makes everything unique because it's different every night. There's slight tweaks and you have the ability to watch more of what's happening. And I think, you know, my criticism of Cats has always been there's too many cats on stage at all times. As someone who, like, it's hard to figure out what you're watching the first time you see it. Now, someone like me, who's now knows way too much about it, has seen it a lot, I can kind of direct my attention to the places I want to at the times. But you almost eliminate some of that by pointing them into you should focus this, your attention on this particular part of the story right now without all the other stuff happening in the background when you've got 30 people. Is that is that kind of how it felt?

[10:15] Tim Scott: I really wish there were some archival footage of this that I could have seen because I was dying to watch this. I mean that. Yeah. But also, you know, we want people to connect with the people they're literally in the room with. So another example is, you know, our another philosophical thing about our theater is that we believe in having all of the artists be seen all of the time. And so that means the musicians in our shows are always on stage. They're always visible to the audience. We don't believe in orchestra pits. We don't believe in, you know, shunning people and having it sound like you're watching a musical with tracks, which it always sounds like to me. So you're seeing all of the musicians in real time as part of the architecture on the scenescape.

Our pianist, who is also our music director, is usually really prevalent. And so for our production, our pianist also doubled as Bustopher Jones. Right. So when we get to Bustopher Jones, this person has been playing the piano all along, turns around, someone else sits down and starts playing the piano. And all of a sudden you're like, whoa, I didn't realize this person was anything more than a piano player. And he's Bustopher Jones. He's got a mic and, you know, a microphone. And we dress him up and we bring it into the communal storytelling aspect, which is the play. And I think that kind of surprise element, even it's not a huge surprise, but that component makes the audience lean in even more and be like, oh, wow, this is kind of a magical surprise, you know, childlike.

And I say that in the best possible way production to where there are little secrets and little nuances that that don't require, you know, million dollar budget and stuff like that. It is the power of the convention of storytelling. And so, yeah, for us, it's just about showcasing the actual.

[11:50] Tim Scott: I think my initial dislike for CATS came from the fact that I had never seen a production that looked the way a production of CATS was supposed to look. I always thought I was the perfect person to direct it because I had a vision of what it could be, and I wanted to bring that to life.

[12:20] Tim Scott: The 2018 production was a bold reimagining. We stripped away the iconic cat costumes and instead focused on the characters' emotional journeys. This allowed the audience to connect with the story on a deeper level.

[12:50] Tim Scott: My philosophy behind this unique approach was to make the show more relatable. I wanted to highlight the struggles and triumphs of each character, making them feel more human and less like just cats.

[13:20] Tim Scott: One of the most significant changes we made was introducing hip-hop elements into the choreography. This not only modernized the production but also made it more accessible to a younger audience who might not have been familiar with the original musical.

[13:50] Tim Scott: Audience reactions were mixed at first. Some long-time fans were resistant to the changes, while others appreciated the fresh take. It sparked a lot of conversations about what CATS could be in a contemporary context.

[14:20] Tim Scott: Diving into character and story arcs was crucial for us. We wanted to explore the motivations behind each character's actions and how their pasts shaped who they are in the present.

[14:27] Tim Scott: For instance, we took a closer look at Grizabella's backstory, which added layers to her character and made her journey more poignant.

[14:34] Tim Scott: We also focused on the relationships between the characters, which helped to create a more cohesive narrative throughout the show.

[14:41] Tim Scott: As we prepared for the 2025 production, we aimed to build on the foundation we established in 2018. We wanted to refine our approach and continue to push the boundaries of what CATS can be.

[14:48] Tim Scott: The upcoming season will highlight even more innovative elements, and I’m excited to see how audiences will respond to the evolution of the production.

[14:58] Tim Scott: I believe that reimagining classic works is essential for keeping theater alive and relevant. It allows us to explore new themes and perspectives that resonate with today's audiences.

[15:05] Tim Scott: The challenges we faced during the 2018 production were significant, but they ultimately led to a more rewarding experience for both the cast and the audience.

[15:11] Tim Scott: I think the future of theater reimaginings is bright. As directors and creators, we have the opportunity to breathe new life into beloved stories and make them feel fresh and exciting.

[15:41] Tim Scott: I’m looking forward to seeing how the landscape of musical theater continues to evolve. There’s so much potential for innovation and creativity.

[15:48] Tim Scott: Ultimately, my goal is to create productions that resonate emotionally with audiences, regardless of their familiarity with the original material.

[15:55] Tim Scott: I think that’s what theater is all about—connecting with people and telling stories that matter.

[16:02] Tim Scott: As we move forward, I hope to continue exploring new ideas and pushing the boundaries of what theater can be.

[16:08] Tim Scott: I believe that every production should challenge both the creators and the audience to think differently about the stories being told.

[16:38] Tim Scott: The feedback we received from the 2018 production was invaluable. It helped us understand what worked and what didn’t, guiding our decisions for the future.

[17:08] Tim Scott: I’m excited to see how our next production will be received and how it will continue to evolve the conversation around CATS.

[17:38] Tim Scott: I think there’s a lot of room for growth and exploration in the world of musical theater, and I’m thrilled to be a part of that journey.

[17:48] Tim Scott: The creative process is always a learning experience, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to collaborate with such talented individuals.

[17:58] Tim Scott: I believe that every director brings their unique perspective to a production, and that diversity of thought is what makes theater so vibrant.

[18:08] Tim Scott: As we prepare for the next season, I’m looking forward to the challenges and triumphs that lie ahead.

[18:18] Tim Scott: I think it’s essential to remain open to new ideas and to be willing to take risks in order to create something truly special.

[18:28] Tim Scott: I’m passionate about theater and the impact it can have on people’s lives. It’s a powerful medium for storytelling.

[18:38] Tim Scott: I hope that our productions inspire others to think critically about the stories we tell and the ways in which we tell them.

[18:48] Tim Scott: The future of theater is bright, and I’m excited to see where it takes us.

[18:58] Tim Scott: I believe that by reimagining classic works, we can create a dialogue about their relevance in today’s world.

[19:08] Tim Scott: I’m committed to pushing the boundaries of what’s possible in theater and exploring new ways to engage audiences.

[19:18] Tim Scott: I think that’s what makes theater such a dynamic and exciting art form.

[19:28] Tim Scott: I’m looking forward to continuing this journey and seeing how our work resonates with audiences in the years to come.

[19:38] Tim Scott: Thank you for having me on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure to share my thoughts and experiences with you.

[19:48] Tim Scott: I hope to see everyone at the next production and to continue the conversation about the future of CATS and musical theater.

[19:58] Tim Scott: Let’s keep pushing the envelope and exploring new possibilities together.

[20:08] Tim Scott: I’m excited for what’s next and can’t wait to share it with all of you.

[20:18] Tim Scott: Thank you again for this opportunity to discuss my work and the future of theater.

[20:28] Tim Scott: I look forward to seeing how our reimagined productions continue to evolve and inspire.

[20:38] Tim Scott: It’s an exciting time to be involved in theater, and I’m grateful for the chance to contribute to this art form.

[20:48] Tim Scott: Let’s keep the conversation going and continue to explore the possibilities that lie ahead.

[20:58] Tim Scott: Thank you for listening, and I hope to see you at the theater soon.

[21:08] Tim Scott: I’m looking forward to sharing more about our upcoming projects and the direction we’re heading in.

[21:18] Tim Scott: It’s a thrilling time for musical theater, and I’m excited to be a part of it.

[21:28] Tim Scott: Thank you for having me, and I can’t wait to see what the future holds.

[21:38] Tim Scott: Let’s keep dreaming big and pushing the boundaries of what’s possible in theater.

[21:48] Tim Scott: I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts and experiences with you today.

[21:58] Tim Scott: I’m excited for the future and can’t wait to see how our work resonates with audiences.

[22:08] Tim Scott: Thank you for tuning in, and I hope to see you at our next production.

[22:18] Tim Scott: Let’s continue to explore the magic of theater together.

[22:28] Tim Scott: I’m grateful for the chance to share my passion for musical theater with all of you.

[22:38] Tim Scott: Thank you for listening, and I look forward to our next conversation.

[22:48] Tim Scott: Let’s keep the dialogue going and continue to inspire one another.

[22:58] Tim Scott: I appreciate your time and interest in our work, and I can’t wait to share more with you soon.

[23:08] Tim Scott: Thank you again for having me on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure.

[23:18] Tim Scott: I’m excited for what’s next and hope to see you all at the theater.

[23:41] Tim Scott: Once. And when I started digging, I think exactly what you said is like, why are they fighting? We don't know. There's that ability to have, okay, we can fill in that blank as an artist, is what, for me, as a humor writer and someone who just likes creating, I was like, there's a lot of opportunity between these relationships and the differences. So I leaned into that as the writing side. But it is so true as a performer that your Grizabella can decide why she left the tribe. And that decision does not really change anything on stage. And so that's probably one of my favorite parts of Cats is I could give you a slight variation or tweak. And as I've done 200 plus of these episodes, the amount of times I've talked to somebody performing it in the international tour on the US tour, when they're still in the middle of it, and been able to be like, did you think about this?

Like, what you just told me means that. And they're like, I've never thought about that. That now changes how I think about this moment. And it's like, it's not material to telling the whole story. It's not like it's going to change their singing or the dance number, but it is just a slight variation. And you got to play with that from start to finish. And I liked, as you said, you saw the 1998 movie once, and then you've not seen it since. And so you really leaned into that. And I think that's a really cool part about Cats and why I was so drawn to what I saw. Unfortunately, I only have about a minute of the YouTube video you have. I really am dying to see the rest. But the ability for you to take that well-known source material, but create something so new while staying so true to it, is such a cool part of theater. And I think why I was so fascinated by your production.

[25:32] Tim Scott: We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. Again, it's so interesting to talk about our production of Cats, because it had two lives. And in 2018, it was very difficult to get buy-in from the actors. This is, again, this is before anything. And so we're doing Cats without Cats. And so you've got this group of actors that it was difficult to get buy-in. There was a lot of questions about, what is this? What are we doing? What is happening here? The idea of you're just a community of cats, whatever that means. And I always use the movie Warriors as a reference, even in 2018. I'm like, what are those people? Who are those people? They're all dressed weird with weird makeup.

They're just a community of misfits. They're a tribe, right? And so that's what we focused on, the tribal aspect, not the feline aspect. We focused on the tribal aspect of it. And we had spray paint and spray chalk, and we were spray painting Act One when the show started. And Grizabella comes on in Act Two, which is not written. We just had her come on in the little entract, and she spray painted it, too, to make it be Act Two. And all these things that were kind of, again, I stopped short of saying, you know, kind of gang-like or clique-like, but the movie Warriors has always been my best comp, because it was like, they're just a community like this, and they're out at night, and they're misfits, and they have their community.

So I always thought that. But I will say, once they bought in, and once the audience came in and rewarded them, I mean, that group in 2018, many of them didn't even know each other. They are such a close-knit group of people to this day, because they kind of went through something. And as an artist, man, isn't that what you always want? Don't you always want—I mean, haven't we all done enough, you know, vanilla versions of fill-in play at fill-in theater over our time to be able to do something that's so abstract, and therefore so risky and vulnerable as a performer? Because it could be terrible. You could be ridiculed and mocked. And then to have it come through and be so well-received, and I just think that that's as artists what we're always hoping for, and in musical theater specifically, sometimes that's tough to attain.

[28:06] Tim Scott: Yeah. And Cats can be so personal, because it feels like there's a character for everybody. There is a storyline in there that you will relate to. And I've always found that that's something that stands out of why there is such more mass appeal, is because depending on who you are, what part of your life you're in, there's probably still one of those characters that you can relate to. But I love hearing that you had two lives. That means you have seven more chances to put this on. Like, Cats have nine lives. I'm waiting for, you know, maybe it'll be a couple years, but there's at least seven more that you get to do of this version.

[28:26] Tim Scott: Yeah. I tell you, I almost felt like a poser in 2025. I had to justify it to everyone. I'm like, we did this first. We're not going to be on any bandwagon. You know, we did this in 2018 where people laughed at us. So I kind of felt like I had to give that disclaimer. But it was so well received in 2018 that we had a lot of people that saw it then that actually came back and were excited to see it again. And we did do it in a slightly larger theater. We have a couple of different venues, which is also part of the reason why I wanted to do it again, because I knew we could. You know, in 2018, we didn't have a ton of money. We don't have a ton of money now. We're a nonprofit theater, but we are better off than we were in 2018.

And so I wanted to kind of elevate what we're able to do from a production value standpoint. But I will say that we had a lot of the same artists involved, same lighting designer and same costume designer because, you know, the aesthetic was so unique. I wanted to make sure we were able to kind of be true to that.

[31:03] Tim Scott: Yeah. Okay. Before we go to the Catch Rapid Fire, I do want to talk a little bit about your upcoming season and any of the shows that you're doing because, you know, for anybody, I have a lot of US and UK listeners, but if you can get to Kansas City, not that hard of a place to get to. What are some of the shows you're doing and any other type of reimagining that you have in this upcoming season?

[31:06] Tim Scott: Awesome. We'll link the website. You can see there's a couple other shows on there. It's a great list. And you had a great, great season this year, too, of some really classic shows. So, if you're in the Kansas City area or can get to the Kansas City area, definitely go check it out.

[31:21] Tim Scott: Let's do some quick Cats rapid fire, though, before we get to the million dollar question. So, the first one is, if you could go on for any Cats character, who would you want to play?

[31:30] Tim Scott: Yeah, thank you. You know, that's kind of what MCH is. We try to do the greatest musicals of all time differently in a way that you're not going to see on the national tour or, you know. I think the thing we're most excited about next year is our world premiere adaptation of Moby Dick. You know, Herman Melville's Moby Dick, 900-page novel. But our adaptation, what we're excited about is interweaving it with authentic sea shanties. So, Blow the Man Down, Drunken Sailor, those are probably the two most popular ones. But when you reread the novel, if you've got, you know, a few months, there are actually some sea shanties that I chose that are in the novel. Spanish Lady is a sea shanty, is in the novel.

When I read that, I was like, whoa, there's a really cool opportunity here to do this as a play with music in a very theatrical way. Really excited about doing Moby Dick. We're also doing a production of The Wiz. And what we do with some of our summer productions is we try to we did this for our production of Guys and Dolls this year. We tried to turn the, we had a huge lobby space and we tried to turn it into an immersive experience. So, our production will be The Wiz at the Emerald City pop-up and cabaret. So, it'll be great for kids. We'll have Yellow Brick Roads. We'll have their, like, kind of tornado, you know, exhibitions that you can walk through. We'll have, you know, the Emerald City Cabaret Club in the back with a green piano and club acts to start the show. So, those are two of the things that we're probably most excited about next season.

[31:31] Tim Scott: At this stage of my life, I'd probably want to play Grizabella. You know, I think in my prime, I'd probably want to play Rum Tum Tugger. Such a fun role. You know, he gets all the great numbers, the great tunes, and he gets to be, you know, a literal rock star. But I think the Grizabella track is just so unique and so perfect and so just set up beautifully. Kind of a princess track, too. You know, he pranks them too much.

[31:57] Tim Scott: That's all I... I did have a Rum Tum Tugger question for you, because in 2018 was, I think, around the time that they were doing the Hip Hop Tugger. So, did you, like in the UK, were you familiar with that? Or did you...

[32:10] Tim Scott: I've never heard of that. Did you use any of that in there? Okay.

[32:13] Tim Scott: Our whole production in 2018 was hip hop. So, that was challenging, too, because the music doesn't always lend itself to it. So, our orchestration was very, very different. You know, we didn't talk much about this, but our orchestration was condensed to maybe six instruments when we really leaned into the percussion and the drum aspect to kind of help us with the hip hop vocabulary. But no, I hadn't heard of that. I'll look at it.

[32:34] Tim Scott: Okay. Okay. I'll definitely send you. It didn't last very long, and it was a little controversial in the Cats fandom space. So, I'm glad that you didn't use it as any source material.

[32:48] Tim Scott: Who are your favorite and least favorite characters from a personality standpoint? Which one would you want to hang out with, and which one would bug you?

[32:56] Tim Scott: I love Bamblerina. Always have. I don't know why. Maybe it's to do with the actors that play Bamblerina in both of our productions. They're two different people. But I've always loved Bamblerina. Of course, Jelly Lauren, the caretaker, always been a big fan. I think my least favorites are probably Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer. I actually thought about cutting that song. I'm like, can I cut this? It actually turned out really well for us. It turned out really well for us, but I mean, I've always kind of been annoyed by the song, and I didn't really love the characters. I kind of found them a little annoying.

[33:32] Tim Scott: Okay. That's a hot take. Well, that lends to the next question. What's your favorite song?

[33:37] Tim Scott: Ooh, my favorite song. Probably Old Deuteronomy. It's so simple. It's just repetitive. It just goes over and over. The entrance of Old Deuteronomy comes. I've always loved that moment. It's just the community. I think it's Old Deuteronomy, and then they just sing over and over the same refrain. That might be the first time anyone's ever said that, but I've always loved that song, that moment of the show. For me, it's a sunrise moment. His entrance is a sunrise moment. It's just so loving and communal, like your dad coming home. That'd be tough for me to beat.

[34:19] Tim Scott: Yeah. I always ask one kind of unique one or specific one to you, and the one I'm most interested in is because you just mentioned the hip-hop. What was the easiest song to kind of convert into more of a hip-hop number? What was the hardest song to convert into kind of a hip-hop number?

[34:31] Tim Scott: Easiest song easily was Rum Tum Tugger. The most difficult was the Jellicle Ball. The Jellicle Ball was very, very challenging. But we were able to do it, and it ended up being really ceremonial, which is what I think it is. I think it's ceremonial and spiritual. What we talked about with the Jellicle Ball was every community has something like that. I'm Italian Catholic, so I had a catechism, right? These big religious parties after I graduated from CCD or my confirmation, and quinceañeras and all of these different types of events. I'm like, that's what it is, which is, there's a part of it that's really religious, really spiritual, but another component of it that's really celebratory. So that's what we leaned into, and it was very difficult to translate to that kind of choreography vocabulary.

[35:32] Tim Scott: It was a difficult, slow, melodic number to get into more of a beat.

[35:37] Yeah, we didn't dance that. We didn't dance it at all. It was very much like...

[35:43] It was sermon-like for us. It opens Act Two, and it's kind of a regathering of the community, and we treated it more like a sermon, more like a little Sunday talk.

[35:53] Okay.

[35:54] Yeah, which is what I think it is. That's how it's written.

[35:57] Yeah.

[35:58] Yeah.

[35:59] So, million-dollar question. So, my whole show is centered around the fact that I don't think Grizabella is the right Jellicle choice for many reasons. So, I want to hear you, Tim, who's your Jellicle choice and why?

[36:12] It's tough to get away from our adaptation, right? Because, I mean, we set it up for Grizabella, and I think that the way we set it up, the way we position her within the community, the audience is asking the question that we talked about earlier, which is, why? Why are you so upset at her? Why is she so outcast? Why is she excommunicated from the community? So, within the vocabulary of our production, it was so heroic, because after she sings Memory, it's basically Old Deuteronomy looking around trying to get everyone's vote, right, for lack of a better word. And after her testimony, everyone kind of agrees. So, it's very difficult to get away from that, considering our production. Because, if Grizabella doesn't get chosen at the end, I mean, we're going to have a real problem with the audience, because we just set it up and under root for her in such a way.

I think the other choice for me would probably be, just based on my own life and background, would be Gus the Theater Cat. You know, I think that he's the other person that everyone, certainly in our production, beloved, rooted for, you know, really felt invested in. This guy's got one- for us, he appears one time, he walks on, and when he walks off, you'd never see him before, you'd never see him after, because that actor doubled. Once it wasn't Gus again, he was back to somebody else. So, I think that was a really special and unique framing for us as well, because it was this chestnut of a moment, and then he's gone. So, for me, that would be that character always, for me, was my grandfather, who I said had Alzheimer's. And so, for me, it was such a personal character, a personal moment that we really tried to take great care with. And so, that would be my- if I wasn't going to go with Grizabella, it would definitely be Gus the Theater Cat.

[38:00] Okay. I do track this. What am I putting down as the vote? Gus the Theater Cat.

[38:05] I'm putting down Gus. Okay, great. I love it.

[38:10] I do have two questions, though, about this, because one is that with you doubling Gus, is Gus not there at the end, as Gus, to even be a chance to be chosen? Because that's always- I've seen other productions do that, where Gus is back to doubled as the other character, whether it's Buster Jones or in other places, other cats. And so, I've always found it interesting if Gus isn't standing there with Grizabella at that moment to even be the choice. It's like, oh no, you've taken away the number other- really the other option everyone's thinking about.

[38:44] Yeah. I mean, our production wasn't framed like that. I mean, our production was framed with- after Memory was over, and again, we used the music as our guide. After Memory, we go to- I mean, we go to the Heralds, and we're off to the races. We didn't build in any American Idol type of voting system. To us, it was obvious, right? And it was. It was. She sings this song, everyone- I mean, she's won everyone over. We go to the Heralds, old dude Amami walks out, and his perspective was like, guys, we've treated this person like shit the whole show. I mean, come on, guys. And it was real quick and obvious.

[39:28] No, Gus wasn't to answer your question directly. No, Gus isn't out there for that scene. The actor is playing someone else. But I don't think anybody missed that or even considered that perspective.

[39:37] No. Yeah.

[39:39] I think that only happens with exactly what you said. I have seen this happen where it does feel like the two or three people that have a choice to be picked are lined up like an American Idol, and then it's you choose versus- I've seen a lot of other ones go directly into, okay, she gets up, and one of the cats goes to touch her, and then she goes and is selected. How did you send her off? What was your heavy side layer?

[40:03] Yeah. So, I don't even believe that she goes off to die. That's not even my thing.

[40:09] Totally.

[40:09] For us, it was almost like a baptism. That's how we treated it. So, how she went off is, our set was very- you've seen the photos- very industrial, very dilapidated theater, junkyard hybrid. And on stage the entire time, kind of upstage hidden, but not- you could see it the whole time- was a genie lift, if you're familiar with that. We use it to hang lights. And so, when it was time, the old dude around me escorted her over to the genie lift that's been on stage the entire time. And at the moment, she hit the button, and the genie lift goes up, and she goes as high as the moon. So, she's right next to what our moon was. And she's part of- she doesn't disappear. She's part of the finale.

She's singing in the middle of the finale, addressing of the cats. At one point, we bring her back down, and she rejoins the community at the end, and she's with them again. So, for us, it was more like a renewal, a baptismal type of thing, all based in ceremony, and much less about death and that kind of stuff.

[41:13] Yeah. Well, see, your version, I could get more behind, because I love the redemption arc. I love bringing her back to her family. I don't love the, like, great, now we're going to send you off to the sky, and you're going to be gone. So, it's like, if you brought her back- I've never understood it. I didn't get what it was about, and it didn't make any sense to me. It certainly didn't align with what we try to do, which is everyone deserves a second chance, I mean, I have family members to this day that we're not very close for whatever reasons. For us, it just lent itself to the ceremonial aspect that we tried to pepper throughout, which was, we're going to send her up. She's going to be a part of this singing, and at the end, I think it was Jelly Lorne who went over and brought her down, and then escorted her down next to Old Deuteronomy, and they stood there center stage hand-in-hand with the rest of the tribes singing together. I loved it.

[42:10] Yeah, that's, I mean, that's part of how I want the show to end, so, with maybe Gus going up to first. I'm glad that you voted Gus, too. Like, that makes me really happy, because now we're slowly influencing. So, when you go into the third life of this, and you do this, you know, in however many years from now, I'm going to try to convince you to, I'll come back, I'll be there with you, I'll help sell tickets. We will figure out a way to have Gus go, but still kind of keep the story the same, with Grizabella having her redemption. I think it's there, and I'm convinced, unless you want to go rogue, and we can go audience voting every night, that's the other option I really want, to let a different person go every night.

[43:00] I don't know. I'd get on board with Gus if he was playing the melodica, like playing the theme on the way up. That was someone we could try to introduce. I mean, I'd never even considered that, but I tell you what, if we ever do it again, I will see if I can consider something that is different, just because, you know, if I do it a third time, I gotta do something different.

[43:09] Yeah. I want either audience voting, or I want old Deuteronomy to actually pick a different person every night, based on how he felt the effort was given by the performers. Like, I want it to be a little true family chaotic. What if it's old Deuteronomy? He can pick himself one night. You know?

[43:25] Yeah, like the Jeopardy host scandal. It's like, yeah, you know, well, we had all these auditions, but I'm actually going to host it.

[43:33] Yeah. But I still love the idea of, like, if old Deuteronomy is, you know, you get an old Deuteronomy with some true ethical standards of being able to say, I'm going to actually watch today, because they're, you know, they're performing, but they get a lot of time to sit and watch. I'm going to choose based on who really brings it that night, knowing that everybody doesn't have their best performance every night. Like, we get it. You're doing this eight times a week, or however many times you're doing it. And there are going to be nights where that old Deuteronomy is going to say, it was me. I truly gave the best performance tonight.

[44:05] I'd see that.

[44:06] It does work.

[44:08] It does work. I think that they can choose themselves sometimes. They choose different people.

[44:12] Yeah.

[44:13] I've watched everyone, and honestly, you know, maybe you're sick, but I just wasn't feeling it today.

[44:21] That, I think, is the other fun way. It would be really, I talked about it with a tour, and I was like, you can't do this on tour, because if you start having some, like, unnecessary fighting, infighting with the cast because of, I thought I brought it tonight, and you pick them, and then you get on a bus for nine hours to go to the next city, you're going to be in trouble. But I think you could do it.

[44:41] It'd be fun.

[44:43] All right. That's my pitch. So when you're ready, you'll have my information. If this show's still going by then, we might have a different conversation.

[44:50] We'll do it live. We'll do this show live.

[44:55] This has been, oh, yeah. This has been super fun. How can people stay in touch with you? I know we'll link the theater for everything, but to keep up with everything you're working on.

[45:04] Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, MTH is the best way. So it's M-T-H, theater, spelled the American way, like the New York Times and the Washington Post, T-H-E-A-T-E-R. And that's our handles on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and all that good stuff. And yeah, follow us on our website. We're always doing, you know, we try to do cool, innovative stuff. And yeah, we're a group of artists, and we're pretty happy to be able to do what we're doing.

[45:30] I love it. I wish I got the chance to go this past summer, but now I'm more excited for our future collaboration version that we're going to do. And I hope it's not seven years from now.

[45:41] Seven-year timeline.

[45:43] Sometime soon. Yeah, your seven-year windows. Well, this has been very, very fun. I love all new iterations, especially hearing that you got to do it twice. And I'm now crediting you all as the innovators for the reimagined productions. You were the first, so you are the trendsetters.

[46:01] I do feel that way. I mean, it's hard to take any kind of global credit for it. But again, the ridicule we received in 2018, I'm still recovering from it. So in 2025, I'm like, everyone's going to feel like, oh, everyone's doing it now. And now MTH is, I'm like, no, we did it when it was marked.

[46:21] Well, I'll put it out there, because there's some historians that listen to this, for sure, some Cats historians. So if you know of something that predates 2018, that does some type of reimagined production. And, you know, reimagined meaning not a different set or different, you know, like there's some tweaks like that, but a true reimagined production, you know, email me, DM me, let me know. And then I'll pass along to Tim. We'll see this. I feel like this is the first I've heard, but I also didn't start talking about the show till 2019. I'd love to be able to claim it. So let me know how it goes.

[46:55] I will keep you posted. Well, this has been such a fun episode. Thank you for coming on and sharing.

[47:00] Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.

[47:03] And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, a podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. Follow along, you could subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any podcast. Also on social media at TheWrongCatDied, or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.