This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. Not long ago, episode 229, I had Tim Scott who directed the 2025 Music Theater Heritage Production of Cats in Kansas City. And I have been fascinated by this still, and I was very lucky to now see a few clips because I heard from some cast members, and I'm thrilled to have the Jellicle narrator himself, Bryce Bayer, who played Munkustrap this past August. So welcome, Bryce, and thank you for joining me.

[0:47] Bryce Bayer: Hi, thank you so much. And thank you for sending the clips because I was fascinated by how you staged with so few characters and the hip hop infusion and this jazz and all the stuff. And all I got was this one really nice production video, and you were able to show me a couple other clips. So I have a better understanding of what you all did, and so I can't wait to talk about it. And I usually ask the first question, but when we were messaging, you answered this, which is, you had no experience with Cats before being cast in this.

[1:17] Bryce Bayer: Not any whatsoever, which is insane, given my dance background and everything. But no, not at all.

[1:27] Mike Abrams: So complete zero.

[1:30] Bryce Bayer: Yes, complete zero.

[1:31] Mike Abrams: Have you seen it, or was it just a 1998 movie, nothing?

[1:34] Bryce Bayer: No, nothing.

[1:35] Mike Abrams: You knew about it.

[1:36] Bryce Bayer: I knew about it. So I lived in St. Louis. That's where I'm from originally, St. Louis, Missouri. I grew up doing shows at the Muny in Forest Park, and that was from sixth grade till my senior year of high school. And they did not do Cats out of those. It was there 2011 to 2017.

[2:00] Mike Abrams: I'm not sure I can imagine Cats there, outdoors in that theater.

[2:04] Bryce Bayer: They did it the year before my first ever season there when I was a child. They did it in 2010, because I asked myself the same thing. I'm like, how did I have no experience or prior exposure to Cats? And then I'm like, did the Muny ever do it? Because they didn't do it when I was there. So it sparked my interest even more and did some Googling. And it was actually Stephanie J. Block, right after she did 9 to 5 on Broadway, she came and played Grizabella there.

[2:29] Mike Abrams: You know what? I didn't know that, because if you look at there's a random set of Grizabellas that did regional productions, or they have some connections. And she's one that I've always wanted to have on. I forgot it was because she did two weeks at the Muny, or it was a very short run.

[2:44] Bryce Bayer: 14 days. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Okay. So no knowledge, no nothing.

[2:52] Mike Abrams: Not at all. You are now in your career at this point. It's not like it's your first job. And you've done some stuff at MTH. What was your thought when you heard about this production? Because this is not the first time. They did this in 2018. Right. But what was your reaction?

[3:12] Bryce Bayer: I knew that it was going to be, and I think when I listened to the episode with Tim, their mission statement is we want to present these classic, I guess, quote unquote, classic works and envision it in a more contemporary manner. And so they did that with Chorus Line. I did Chorus Line there in 2023. We did some new choreography to the show, and it was in a very intimate space. But when I saw that they were doing Cats, not having known they did it in 2018, I was like, well, what kind of different things are they going to do with this? I knew something was coming. Just given alone the space and given what they tend to do with their works.

[3:59] Bryce Bayer: I was not prepared for what our concept was. But as soon as I got the offer, then I looked at their website where they had their season. And under the like, what's this show about? It explained Cats and then said this sold out every performance in 2018 with hip hop and street jazz choreography and a punk rock aesthetic. It gave hints to that in the description. And so that's when I was like, all right, I know nothing about Cats. I know that different Cats is happening everywhere. Conceptual Cats is happening all over the country. So let me go ahead and just give a stab at it.

[4:38] Mike Abrams: Amazing. When I talked to Tim, it was interesting because now it is like the Joe Cabal, cast of Joe Cabal is going to Broadway. And there was a lot of different versions, and people have taken more liberties with it. And I think Andrew Lloyd Webber is more open to it. But in 2018, that wasn't the case. He claims that they're the first, which I've not heard anybody that can claim that they did that before them. So yeah, it was a very, probably risky choice at the time and a provocative choice at the time. But now it's well known and you obviously get to be cast in it and you're cast as Munkustrap with only 12 Cats total, right? There's only 12, which is wild to me because it's usually like 30.

[5:25] Bryce Bayer: But you said that when we were chatting before, you use the podcast, did you find this during the rehearsal process? How did that come to life?

[5:33] Bryce Bayer: I did. So actually what happened was our third day of rehearsal or something like that, I came down with strep for a total of two days. I get strep all of the time. And I know exactly when it's coming. I know how to combat it as soon as it happens. And unfortunately, I still had to stay home for two whole days. But during that time when I was just completely bedridden, I went on Spotify and listened. Well, I was listening to the OBC top to bottom all the time. I just remember being like, how am I going to learn all of this in two and a half weeks? So I was listening to it and then I've seen different, I guess, what year is it? The 1998.

[6:20] Mike Abrams: 1998 movie, yeah.

[6:22] Bryce Bayer: I saw that soundtrack and then literally underneath it was like, oh, the Wrong Cat Died podcast. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on a second. What is this? And yeah, I just thumbed through some episodes of that because the thing about our production was, and Tim said that the cast struggled with this in 2018 as well, is this concept. And what is this show actually about? And the idea of just throwing that away. But I'm like, how can I form an opinion or a story on this when we're throwing the source material out? So I wanted an idea of the source material so that I could, I guess, flip that upside down or do whatever I had to do to still keep the relationship between the characters. But I didn't want to just completely throw out the story. Or I guess, I know it's divisive on what the story is, but I just wanted people's perspectives on it. And then I listened to some episodes and just went down a hole. I was like, I didn't know there was this much history. I didn't know there was this many opinions. I didn't know all of these productions have happened over the course of however many decades. So yeah, I just kind of fell down the hole for a little bit. And I love podcasts. So listening to them is just something I can do. I was bedridden this time around, but it's always such a great pastime for me. But yeah, that's how I found it. It just showed up on Spotify. I love it. If you like this, you might like this.

[7:56] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And you stumble upon 200, probably, episodes or so by August of like, and you had the exact same reaction I did, which is, wow, there's a lot here to go down this rabbit hole. And that's how I'm still here doing this. So can you take me into the rehearsal room when you get back with strep? Because you are still telling the story, even though in a slightly different way. So how much of that story did Tim give to you versus how much did you pull from hearing people on the podcast and your own kind of research?

[8:30] Bryce Bayer: That's so hard, because it was such an interesting process. Because, let's see, I feel like story-wise, we leaned into the Grizabella of it all, and having her being rejected from us. And oh, another thing too with Munkustrap was, he's the facilitator of whatever's happening, whether or not we are going down the traditional route of what the preconceived story is of Cats. But also, I took that away, being like, okay, Munkustrap is being passed this ceremonial ritual. And that I know to be true from the source material. So I leaned into that a lot. I leaned into this has to go right. Everything that happens throughout the show in this story has to go correct, because it's going to be in his favor. And he's going to be the one to now facilitate this after Old Deuteronomy.

[9:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's interesting, because the facilitation of this is the ball, and he's making sure everything goes and is in order. He also kind of narrates as the narrator of the show. And then the lore of Munkustrap to me is the want to be the next in line, and to take over whenever Old Deuteronomy is gone.

[10:00] Bryce Bayer: Right. Well, and that's interesting too, because and how I really played into it was Old Deuteronomy wasn't on stage a lot in our production. I don't know if that's how it's traditionally done.

[10:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah, really not actually a lot either, because he comes in kind of later for the song. Well, then he sits on stage during intermission, which is always wild.

[10:19] Bryce Bayer: Oh, really?

[10:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah. In a lot of productions, he sits on stage through the whole intermission.

[10:24] Bryce Bayer: Oh, I did not know that. Knowing our Old Deuteronomy, I wish he would have done that. He's like a music theater heritage staple and just one of literally the greatest people I've ever met. He runs a band in Kansas City as well. So I would have loved for him to do his own little Old Deuteronomy set at intermission or something. I don't know. That would have been fun. But yeah, I just really played into when he was on, when he was off, being like, okay, he's not here. So this is my, I'm taking over in this moment. It's my turn. And yeah, I really leaned into that in my preparation for it. And then just really analyzing the relationship specifically between him and Grizabella, because I feel like in our production specifically, anytime she entered, I had this protective energy of the pack, where I'm like, do not get too close to us. We don't know you. In our production, it was kind of like, we see this older figure compared to a bunch of kids. We played into a very childlike energy of it, where it's like this person that we've shunned is now trying to come in and change our vibe. I think Tim's concept was like, you guys come together every single night, once a week, let's say. You guys come together once a week, and you share stories with each other. It's very ritualistic. And tonight, it happens to be T.S. Eliot's book. So that's the story you're telling tonight. Next week, it might be you're having a book club with Great Gatsby. Or last week, you guys just read Fahrenheit 451, something like that. But it's like a group of misfits gathering behind the bleachers after school, and we're all weird. And no one wants to hang out with us. So we get together, and we tell stories together.

[12:26] Mike Abrams: That is fascinating. That is not how I was expecting it, or how I heard it from Tim, either. But I love that, because it's a very different story.

[12:34] Bryce Bayer: He told us that in the middle of a spacing rehearsal once. And I'm like, okay, I feel like I can get with this. Because now when we have someone like Grizabella coming in, it's almost like, imagine you're a kid, and you're getting caught by your parents. You're getting caught by a teacher at school if you're behind the bleachers. And it's someone that's coming in and wants to know maybe what's happening here and is maybe interested. But it's more about just the presence of it. And we're not used to this. This is something we don't associate with, so you need to get out. And so I felt like I played into that a lot.

[13:10] Mike Abrams: I read that book.

[13:10] Bryce Bayer: I read that book.

[13:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I read that book. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[13:20] Bryce Bayer: That's so interesting. Okay, that brings a whole different dynamic to the story, because if you're only doing these poems, this one this week, then it's like, you could have a million different versions of Cats.

[13:27] Bryce Bayer: Correct, correct.

[13:28] Mike Abrams: In that world.

[13:30] Bryce Bayer: It's like, what would this ritual look like if it was a different book? Or if it was a different, completely different experience we were unpacking that night? So I think that's what made it so hard to grasp. And Tim got into the Brechtian-ness of it all, which I don't have a ton of experience with, but learning about it in school, the Brechtian technique and the idea of epic theater and letting the audience in on it and everything. So there was that whole added element to it as well. But I think he may have wanted to keep it super conceptual and abstract and open for interpretation, because we, as the actors are aware of what we're doing, or even the characters, we are aware of what this night is for us.

[14:23] Mike Abrams: And now, there were elements in the show to where we were breaking the fourth wall, I mean, from the very top after the opening number. What is the line? Do I actually see with my own very eyes a man who's not heard of a jellicle cat? I had this cross, downstage all the way to the first row of the audience, and I just look in someone's eyes and I'm like, well, what's the line? I already forgot it.

[14:50] Bryce Bayer: Do you know what a jellicle cat? Because they've done some of that where it's like, they point in, what's a jellicle cat?

[14:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's what I did. I walked downstairs, I was like, what's a jellicle cat? And just kind of staring at him, staring at a random person in the first row every single night. And then I think leading into The Naming of Cats, The Naming of Cats was a monologue for Gus. Well, he's technically not Gus at that time, but he eventually plays Gus. He does the entire Naming of Cats by himself.

[15:23] Bryce Bayer: Wow.

[15:24] Mike Abrams: And he gets up on this ladder. I guess one of those ladders you would find at Home Depot or something.

[15:30] Bryce Bayer: Yeah, the ladder on the rollers.

[15:31] Mike Abrams: The ladder on the rollers, yeah. And he gets up there, we have a giant book. It's quite literally the actual T.S. Eliot book just made out of wood. And he's a short man, so it looked like it was bigger than him. And he opens it up, it has LED lights on his face, and he just reads it as a monologue through some underscoring.

[15:51] Bryce Bayer: Wow.

[15:52] Mike Abrams: And it's very presentational. We're presenting this book, we're showing the audience that we're not just telling you, we're not just acting this story and dancing this story out for you. We're actually going to tell you right now that we are quite literally, you're just reading a book together.

[16:08] Bryce Bayer: That is so interesting. I'm also going to now think all afternoon and evening of what other books would make a different Cats. What other things could you be reading today? And what would that look like? Which is fun. So when this comes out, I'm going to have a bunch of people comment those because that would be fascinating to hear what people think.

[16:28] Mike Abrams: So knowing how different and conceptual this is, but also still the same, besides the podcast, did you watch the 1998 movie? How much of the traditional Cats did you try to consume, if any?

[16:40] Bryce Bayer: I learned the iconic Jellicle Ball combination. I know no one can see me, but I did that combination in college, and that had to have been my senior year when I was taking theater dance. And I'm so surprised too, because I grew up at a dance studio. We went to competitions and conventions and everything, but it was a very musical theater-based dance studio. My teacher, shout out to Mark Kropinski, he's like the greatest man of all time. He knew Fosse personally, so it was very Fosse-based dances. We had Fosse, we had Jerome Robbins, we had Randy Skinner, we had trying to think of Jerome Robbins, learning different choreography from their works, but never Cats. We never, ever whipped out that combination from Jellicle Ball that everyone knows, the audition combination. We never, ever did that. So yeah, I just had no prior knowledge of it until I guess I got to college, and then I learned that combination for the first time and then watched a clip of it. But I've never seen a fully staged production of it done with the Cat costumes. I never saw the tour or anything like that.

[18:01] Mike Abrams: There's a lot of regional houses doing it still, so you can find the Cats costume Cats. And then in March, the Jellicle Ball will be back on Broadway.

[18:10] Bryce Bayer: I wish I would have seen Roller Coaster Cats. That was the only one, because I'm obsessed with roller coasters.

[18:15] Mike Abrams: Oh, Roller Coaster Cats, that was fun. That was a very fun time. I did a lot with them. I got to ride the roller coaster. It was a blast.

[18:20] Bryce Bayer: I'm jealous.

[18:21] Mike Abrams: They did a great job. It was super fun. And they stuck pretty true to, I mean, there were minor tweaks, but it was still very true to Cats, which is cool to instead of having a junkyard make it an amusement park and still have really a lot of the similarities.

[18:39] Bryce Bayer: I want to hear a little bit about having only 12 cast members, because there's such a big chunk of the lore of Cats is this family tree that does not exist. And there are some things that are true, and there are some things that are very open to interpretation. With only 12, how much did you all think about that? And did you spend time, or is it just like, yeah, we're just a group reading the book, who cares? Or is it like, they're dating, they're together, they're not together. That's my dad, because that's the thing that gets played a lot. That's a very different style.

[19:12] Bryce Bayer: Right. I feel like we didn't, well, we didn't lean into any of that whatsoever. And I think it's interesting, because I don't, I feel like when I was reading, or listening to the score, and just reading the libretto, I would say script, but it's all sung through. I feel like there was nothing really there for me to latch on to with personal relationships, I feel like.

[19:37] Mike Abrams: Yeah. The score, no.

[19:39] Bryce Bayer: Yeah. So I don't know. I hope I don't get cancelled for saying that. But I just feel like there's no really nothing there, you have to just make it up. So it's such open for interpretation. And at least Munkustrap and Jelly were best friends. We were best friends, I know that for a fact. And maybe it's because I loved the actor so much. I loved her to death outside of the show. But she was the one I tended to have a lot of interactions with. And she was the one that I feel like Munkustrap tended to gravitate towards when we had some moments of, you know, this is up to you as the actor, what are you feeling in this moment and stuff like that in the staging and everything. But I do have a screenshot because I wanted to actually list who was in our show. Because there's only 12 of us. But we had Gus, we had Munkustrap, Grizabella, Bombalurina, Rumpelteazer, Demeter, Rum Tum, Old Deuteronomy, Mungojerry, Jenny Anydots, Mr. Mistoffelees, Skimbleshanks, and Jellylorum.

[20:48] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[20:49] Bryce Bayer: That was who was in our show.

[20:51] Mike Abrams: So there wasn't like you played multiple characters?

[20:53] Bryce Bayer: Um, let's see. Gus was not Gus until-

[21:00] Mike Abrams: Is Bustopher Jones and Gus, there's usually a Macavity is usually played by somebody else too in the beginning.

[21:05] Bryce Bayer: Macavity was not in our show. Not even in the slightest.

[21:10] Mike Abrams: No Macavity.

[21:11] Bryce Bayer: No Macavity at all.

[21:12] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[21:13] Bryce Bayer: They just sing about him. And then it's kind of over. The Macavity fight. Okay, I'll get into the Macavity fight for a second. Because we had that musical interlude going into what you hear during the ball. And then the fight music happens. And for us, it was like, police were showing up. And like, we're adolescents, and we're getting caught. We're scared of getting caught again. And we had in the lighting, just a bunch of police sirens. And we're all just running across the stage, hiding from one another. And it was kind of like a jump scare moment for us, is kind of what that was. Versus, I don't know what the Macavity fight is.

[21:53] Mike Abrams: It's bringing back Old Deuteronomy, because he's kidnapped by Macavity.

[21:57] Bryce Bayer: Right, which we did bring back Old Deuteronomy. It was kind of like, scampering around the stage. We're scared. There's police sirens, there's lights. And then we come out, we sing, we have to fight Old Deuteronomy. And then we have Mr. Mistoffelees. And we have Rum Tum come out and start Mr. Mistoffelees. And then we still see Old Deuteronomy at the very end. He actually came out at the very top of the theater in a special, and confetti was thrown on him and everything. Because I want to say, Mistoffelees was like a rock number for us. We leaned into a lot of the rock elements of the show. And that was kind of like a celebration for us. Once that musical interlude happens, and then he shows up on the drum roll, and then he pops out. And then we kind of just have this, I guess, almost reminiscent of a mosh pit kind of moment where we're just rocking out with each other. We're like, everything's okay again. I know we just fought for our lives and ran away from the police. But now we're back, baby. That's the vibe that it was.

[23:03] Mike Abrams: I love it. It sounds like The Breakfast Club.

[23:06] Bryce Bayer: You know what? Yes.

[23:07] Mike Abrams: It's like Breakfast Club Cats.

[23:09] Bryce Bayer: Yes. Yeah, yeah, it is. That is a really great image for me. Yeah.

[23:16] Mike Abrams: Because there's relationships, but there's not the full relationships.

[23:20] Bryce Bayer: Correct.

[23:21] Mike Abrams: You all came together for one reason or another. You're hiding from the teacher a little bit. You've got your rebels, and you've got your bookworms. You've got everything in between, all the characters there. This is a visual I can get behind. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. It's fun. It's so interesting about the... I'm fascinated with the lyrics, that you didn't play the relationships because you didn't hear them. I was thinking through, as you were talking about, which ones actually maybe are even there. And the only one that I can think of off the top of my head, besides obviously the ones like Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer, where they sing together, is that a lot of the rumors of Tugger and Mistoffelees come from the fact that Tugger sings the beginning of the Mistoffelees song in the cast. So that's like the, oh, he's singing about his best friend, boyfriend, whatever you want to call them, partner, whatever version you want, is purely just because of that line. He's the one that's like, you shouldn't forget about him. But the rest is all about staging. So all the other relationships is either lore that's been passed down from the original group or just over the years, or the lifts, like the Victoria number, where there's the lift, is part of that is her. That's the relationship is whoever's lifting her, you assume is they're together. Or truly staging, where it's like those two are side by side. They're probably brother, sister together, or they look kind of the same. So they're related. It's not because of the lyrics. It's because of the text at all. That is so interesting. And I know, I can think of one thing. Traditionally, does Munkustrap not like Rum Tum Tugger? Is that what I've heard?

[25:07] Bryce Bayer: I've heard that. It seems like it depends on the, again, the interpretation, but a lot of variations is that the two of them are brothers and sons of Old Deuteronomy. And it's kind of the, I'm the one that's trying to keep this thing in order. And here's my brother that's causing chaos and doesn't listen to anybody. So it's kind of like, not that he doesn't like him, but he's kind of ruining what I'm trying to do. And I'm trying to keep this family in order.

[25:33] Bryce Bayer: I'm glad that you said that, because I feel like I leaned into that. And that was something I think I also drew from was specifically given just the placement of where that song is to you is like, okay, in our version, Rum Tum came out with a handheld and it was, again, a very rock concert element of it all. And I knew, at least as Munkustrap, being like, this is a little chaotic. I don't like this. He's making all these girls pass out from his singing. And we need to get the show on the road a little bit more. So I remember leaning into that a little bit too. But it's also crazy because I did the Rum Tum Tugger dance break. We had a dance break in there and I joined in on it. So I had to find that little journey of like, okay, I'm annoyed, but all right, here we go. And it's so interesting that you mentioned that too. I mean, just given the relationships offstage as well, loved our Tugger. We hung out all the time. So it was interesting getting to play with that on stage as well.

[26:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's just one thing Tim always said. He was like, you guys are probably not going to understand what's going on until you get to a certain point, until we get to a certain point of our process. But just lean into it and just create relationships with each other on stage. And we had scaffolding that we got to climb all over. And it was just a giant–our junkyard was stop signs and cones and spray paint and everything. So it was fun to–we made it our playground and we had opportunities to just connect with each other and form those relationships.

[27:13] Bryce Bayer: And you had some room to work too with only having 12 versus usually it's like there's 30 on stage. But I do–I think one of the beauty of parts of Cats, one of the parts that's most unique is that it's now–it came out in the 80s. So there's a lot of years of history and now it's been done so many times regionally. And then you add in the like, there's the fan fiction, there's the fan art, there's now this podcast, and there's a lot of people that are talking about it. There's so much more information and lore that you can build from, but you also don't have to. Because there's only a few things that like most–even the purists like are–feels like they're true. Like, hey, this is for sure one thing we should all agree on. And even that, I will say there's been a few fan accounts that have tagged me and stuff and I've seen where they're like, hey, this is one thing I think we all agree on. I'm like, I actually don't know if I agree with that one. So it's like, not everyone agrees, but it doesn't materially change the story.

[29:03] Bryce Bayer: Right.

[29:03] Mike Abrams: And I think that's what's cool. I think one of my favorite things early on in this podcast was I read a–on like the Cats Wikipedia page, like the fan page, a rumor, like a headcanon, where it was like, hey, this–we're unsure about this because of this one production that seemed to have done it differently this way. And then I got to interview both the people over the years of like, what happened there? And it's just like, yeah, we were friends. Like, we played it–like, it happened one day on stage kind of by accident, and then someone mess–like, sent something to us about it, we talked about it, and then they just leaned into it from that part forward. And that to me is fascinating that like all of this lure could have just been because of one moment from two friends that just happened on stage one night that all of a sudden snowballed. And yeah, there's not–there's like a few shows that can do that. But Cats is definitely one, and not every show gives you that freedom.

[29:03] Bryce Bayer: Right.

[29:03] Mike Abrams: And I think that's what I think is really cool about it.

[29:05] Bryce Bayer: I think it's such an interesting comparison. I don't know why this came up, but I've done Chorus Line like three times, but–so it's interesting because those are real people that had real relationships with these people on the line, and people play into that in productions all the time. Even though there's also inherently no context in the actual show, in the script itself, that these people have these certain relationships with each other, it's always played into, especially if you have someone from the legacy that's like staging your show. They're like, well, this character and this character, they had–this was their lure outside of what this show was when they were being interviewed for the first time, and these people knew each other. But it's so interesting on the other side of that with something like Cats, because it's not informed by the show, it's informed by what their relationships are like on stage and as actors, versus–it's not in the script. So I don't know. It's so interesting to think about, because when I was being told, or even when I was listening to this podcast, a few episodes of it, I'm like, so is this–it made me nervous a little bit. I was like, wait, so is this all the lore I need to know about? Am I going to have–am I going to be confused as the character if I don't play into every single aspect of this? And then when I think it was the second or third episode I listened to, I'm like, wait, this is actually subjective. This is all opinion. This is depending on each production and each cast that's ever done it. I have heard now a few different Story of Cats interpretations where–because a lot of the regional theaters, they'll give that. They will go around during the rehearsal process and say, this is the Story of Cats, and this is the way we're going to play those things, and then these are things we're going to let you decide. And there's a lot of that that's open. And even hearing that, I've heard variations. Now, they're not huge, but they're tweaks of like, we're going to maybe play this version for Grizabella, or this relationship in that story. And I'm fascinated by that, of where I constantly–so I'm from Indiana, and they're going to do it next year at a dinner theater down the street from where I grew up. And I want to be like, let me come to rehearsals. Forget the dance rehearsals, forget the tech. But when you get to the story part, let me go. And then I have this new AI platform that I built based on the transcripts of these episodes. So I'm like, I can ask it anything I want of everything that I've ever fed it or I've heard on this show, and we can get answers. So it's really kind of crazy to me that that's only going to go–I actually don't know how they're going to run, but I can't imagine it's going to be more than four to six weeks at longest, if it's even that. And they're going to go in and do a pretty much full version of Cats. And I'm like, well, let me tell the story. Who's going to tell the story? Let me kind of go in and add some of those flavors to it that's, again, not material. The main stuff's going to be the same.

[32:05] Bryce Bayer: Right. Which I feel like as an actor, I like being told those things, and I like being able to play into it, which is why I feel like it was a struggle a little bit trying to get my hands on this show or our version of the show and really try to figure out what it is. And I think Tim, too, he was like, it's not that deep, to be honest. Find the things that work for you. But I don't know, sometimes as an actor, I wish I had those things or I was given those things to play off of. So it was a real challenge to not be given that and to figure it out for myself and for us to figure it out as a cast. It was such an interesting challenge that I've never faced with a show before.

[32:49] Mike Abrams: Totally. Yeah. I also think, though, there's got to be some level of fun of the, you can do it today and then you can do it tomorrow and then not be, again, totally different, but be different because you had this different slight tweak that you wanted to do and the audience isn't going to know the difference. Whereas in certain shows, you can't do that. That line has to be delivered exactly in that moment with that dance number at that time. There can't be another look to the character, whereas you kind of can do some of those things.

[33:07] Bryce Bayer: Right. I feel everything was so point of view for us. Again, Tim asking, what's your point of view on this? Form a point of view on this moment. I'm trying to think of, well, one thing that was always so hard for me was Peaks and Policles. I did Peaks and Policles by myself. So the trade-off of our Gus, who I guess technically wasn't Gus at the time during Naming of Cats, but he had to do all of Naming of Cats and I had to do all of Peaks and Policles. And Peaks and Policles was in Act 1 and it was right after Old Deuteronomy. So me having to form this point of view for us with that number being just complete nonsense, we really played into the childlike, we are behind the school, just screwing around element of that.

[34:12] Mike Abrams: How did you lead into that? What was the lead in for it?

[34:12] Bryce Bayer: So for me, Peaks and Policles has only been, at least that I've watched in Act 2 as basically part of Gus's story. So it's like Gus used to be this famous actor and now he's reliving it in some fashion with Peaks and Policles.

[34:17] Bryce Bayer: Right. I've heard that. And it's so interesting because it's just not at all what we did. I feel like Peaks and Policles was another, I guess, great example of our version of us just acting things out. We quite literally were, without any context, taking the lyrics of that song and being like, okay, so we have Peaks and we have Policles, we have Team 1 and Team 2. Our staging was like we have the Peaks versus the Policles. We're quite literally in the staging, getting down on our knees and barking at each other like dogs and fighting each other. We had our Mungo and Rumpel going head to head. They would have this moment during the barks where they would just come towards each other and square up and try to fight each other. And it was just supposed to be complete, silly nonsense. It was kind of hard for me to figure out, okay, this isn't supposed to be serious, but the music sounds serious. And what I'm singing sounds very dramatic and very heightened. So we just leaned into that. We had a little ramp, a skateboarding ramp. I would just hop on this ramp and start singing about it and be super dramatic while we had the juxtaposition of the rest of the cast over here just acting like complete fools and crawling around on the ground. And old Deuteronomy is just watching it all unfold. And he's like, I don't know what's happening. I can't do anything about this. So yeah, that was a challenge.

[36:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that is such an interesting part of the show. I am curious, though, when you get cast for this and it is Cats, were you pumped that you weren't going to be in the Cats costume and being a cat? Do you want to do Cats in the sense of being Cats?

[36:21] Bryce Bayer: I do. I definitely want to do Cats. I want to do it with the costumes and I want to do it with the original staging. As a dancer, I feel like now that I know about it and I'm super into it now, I actually really like Cats. I think it's actually really cool. I could not get the music out of my head every single day. And even now, it's been since July, and I'll still wake up and sing. Busterford Jones is always in the earworm for me.

[36:51] Mike Abrams: Interesting. It is not the one that most people say. I don't know why. And again, our version of it was so freaking silly. But anyway, going back to what you were asking, I would love to be in Cats proper. I would love to do the original choreography and staging. I think that set is so cool. I've seen bootlegs of it now. I think it's a tour set or something. This is really cool. This is awesome. I would love to put on the Cats costumes. I feel like it might be a rite of passage. I feel like for dancers, I've always heard that. That is one thing that I kind of did here growing up. This is one of those dancer shows. It's kind of a bucket list for a lot of musical theater dancers specifically. So it would be really cool to do it. But on the complete other side of that, I was excited for it because I love punk rock and I love the elements of that. I've done American Idiot, for example, and that had to be one of my favorite experiences in my professional career was doing that show. So being able to lean into the super grungy, dark side, rocker vibe of it all, that really excited me. And the band at Music Theater Heritage is killer. It's really killer. And they just really kind of elevated the drums of it all. And they sat behind the set. So we heard everything. They play the crap out of all of their scores. It's really impressive. So I was excited in that element. I'm like, I know this is going to sound really good. Knowing that they already did a production of it, the choreographer that did Chorus Line did their 2018 production of Cats. He's actually a hip hop, hard-hitting hip hop dancer. He's really good at that stuff. So I'm like, they did this before it worked. It sold out every performance. Although our production was a different choreographer, they hired the same costume designer. They had a different scenic designer, but I had heard the ways that they were trying to blow it up in their bigger space versus their smaller thrust space in 2018. So I'm like, okay, it seems like they have a concept, and they have something they really want to do with this. And knowing what kinds of works they do with their shows, I was excited to just kind of lean into that and go along for the ride.

[39:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah, what a process. Before we transition to Rapid Fire, is there anything else from this production that you're like, this needs to be out there? People need to know about this.

[39:22] Bryce Bayer: I'm trying to think. Oh, I will say, and I wish I had clips from Act 2, because I only ever got clips from Act 1. Act 2, I really enjoyed Skimbleshanks. Our show was eye candy. I remember the assistant director, she also did a lot of our props and did a lot of set dressing and things like that. Her aesthetic is awesome. Shout out Emily Shackelford. She's the associate artistic director, I could be wrong. But she's like Tim's right hand gal. She is so good at what she does, and she also directs there. But she actually directed the number Skimbleshanks, and she wanted to have a little piece in it. And they spray painted the crap out of stop signs. We had a bicycle wheel to form the train. We had a garbage bin on a stick. We had spray fog. We had silly string. We had all of this stuff. The signs and the wheels were wrapped around in LED lights. It just looks so cool. It was so cool. I think there might be a photo of it on the production photos that I sent you. Forming that train was actually really cool. We had the metal ladder on wheels. He was standing on top of there. I think it was our Jenny Enidot. She was on center with a light that represented the train. They just cut all the lights. It was almost like a full blackout on stage and in the whole entire theater. They just lit up the crap out of these. I'm trying to explain it. Signs and wheels on sticks to form the train, and we could spin them and everything. It was just really cool. The graffiti of the top of the show that come out are Rum Tum is banging on a bucket and just making a beat. He's beating the crap out of this bucket. We have some of the girls coming on stage, swarming the stage with silly string. They take off these wooden signs and they quite literally spray paint Act 1 on it. Then at the top of Act 2, they come out and they just spray paint a giant 2 over the 1. Just little things like that. I just thought it was so presentational. And someone actually came up to me after the show one night and said, I have no exposure to Cats. I don't know what any of this is. I've never seen the show. But I feel like I have an understanding of what kind of piece this is, even though I'm aware I'm not seeing how it's done traditionally. He's like, I feel like this is probably a good first exposure to it because it was so presentational and we were showing the audience every single thing.

[42:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I talked with Tim about that because that's the biggest... What I heard most from the Jellicle Ball was that because I think when you remove the Cats costumes and you present it in a slightly different way, you probably tell a little bit more of a linear story. And by doing that, you eliminate some of the confusion. That's really hard when there's so much going on on stage with so many Cats. So I, again, I'm still praying that somebody eventually has some full production video of yours that we can watch.

[42:53] Bryce Bayer: Me too. I'll find it.

[42:56] Mike Abrams: One day we'll get a copy, but we're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. Okay, let's go to some rapid fire. So if you could go on for any character for Cats one night, whether it's in your production or in a Cats costume, Cats production, who do you want to perform as?

[43:14] Bryce Bayer: I would probably want to do... I think Skimbleshanks came to my mind right away. I think I would want to do Skimbleshanks. And again, going back to the actor in our production who played Skimbleshanks, he's one of my good friends. He's just so awesome and so silly. I can only imagine him doing that, but if I could take the isms of how he portrayed that, I would love to go on for him. It was just such a blast.

[43:43] Mike Abrams: Awesome. Who are your favorite and least favorite characters from a hanging out perspective? Which one would you want to spend time with and which one would you get annoyed by?

[43:49] Bryce Bayer: Let's see. I don't know why I feel like Jenny Any Dots would annoy me.

[44:00] Mike Abrams: Okay. I don't know why. You don't want to crochet. You don't want to do that.

[44:05] Bryce Bayer: I feel like she's just kind of there. That sounds terrible, but kind of just like a homebody staying inside. I'm like, I don't know if that's my vibe.

[44:18] Mike Abrams: That's true.

[44:18] Bryce Bayer: I'm very social. I like to do things. I'm trying to think of anyone else that I probably... Who would you hang out with most? Who would be your best friend from a personality standpoint? Not your cast members, but character wise.

[44:34] Bryce Bayer: And it's so crazy because I have no exposure to any of the other ones besides the 12 that we had. My mind goes to Gus. I would love to hang out with Gus. Just being able to be in time and space with someone that is, I guess, elderly and someone that I could look up to in that manner, to kind of lounge around and chill with. Again, going back to our show, the guy that played our Gus, him and I would go to the bar right after rehearsals and performances. Just us two. We would just shoot the shit every single night. He was in the original company of Follies. And just us being able to just chat about things and hearing his perspective on the business from that time was just so interesting.

[45:29] Mike Abrams: I love it. Favorite song in the show?

[45:40] Bryce Bayer: Favorite song? That is so difficult because they're all... And I want to make sure I pick a favorite based on my actual favorite, not versus it's stuck in my head. Gosh, I love Skimbleshanks. I love that song. That is such a fun song.

[45:59] Mike Abrams: That's one of my favorites, too.

[46:01] Bryce Bayer: Yeah.

[46:01] Mike Abrams: That and Macavity are two of my favorites.

[46:02] Bryce Bayer: Oh, and Macavity. How could I forget? And that was the one song I was not on stage for.

[46:08] Mike Abrams: That was your one break, too.

[46:09] Bryce Bayer: Yeah, that was my one break.

[46:11] Mike Abrams: So you get to appreciate it more, probably, by not having to be dancing in the middle of it.

[46:16] Bryce Bayer: Right. And I didn't get to watch it, just given how the space is and we didn't have TVs in the back or anything. So I didn't get to watch it every night. And Macavity in our production was a full on burlesque numbers. They were popping and locking on the stage and they were snaking to the ground and throwing booties. So I wish I could have seen it, but that was the one I would run upstairs, throw a cough drop in and just jam out to it every single night with our Mungojerry.

[46:46] Mike Abrams: You need to find those Act Two videos so you can see it in some way.

[46:48] Bryce Bayer: I know, I know. I'm about to text our stage manager when we get off the phone.

[46:53] Mike Abrams: Okay, my fun one. I'm not going to make you cast it because that's not really what we do, but you told me you're going to be in a touring production of The Music Man. If you could place one of the cats from your show into The Music Man, who would you want to be in that story and why?

[47:11] Bryce Bayer: Oh, gosh. I would really love to see Gus doing 76 trombones.

[47:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah, okay.

[47:20] Bryce Bayer: Just the image of that makes me smile a lot. And see, here's the other thing. I'm currently figuring out Music Man and reading the script and the story we just got sent to us, because I've never seen that show either. So I'm trying to put that into what I would think in terms of cats. Also, maybe Rum Tum I'd like to see in Music Man.

[47:48] Mike Abrams: I could see that.

[47:49] Bryce Bayer: You know, I don't know. I feel like he would cause a lot of chaos in River City.

[47:55] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple.

[47:56] Bryce Bayer: I'd like to see how that shakes out.

[47:59] Mike Abrams: There's a couple I think you could put in with the whole kind of con man thing, because you didn't have the cavity for that. But cavity breaks every human law. Mungojerrie and Ruppelteazer are a little mischievous. You could have some stuff there. Then you could put the kittens in with the school children that are part of the band. There's a lot of places you can put people.

[48:16] Bryce Bayer: I feel like I'm trying to think of who I would want to see as the barbershop quartet, cats-wise. Yeah, that's so funny. I would probably do Mungo. Let's see, again, just going off of who is in ours. I'd love to see Mungo in a barbershop quartet. I'd love to see maybe-

[48:40] Mike Abrams: You need Old Dude. You need that deep voice.

[48:42] Bryce Bayer: We need Old Dude as the bass. I'm trying to think of who else. I don't know. Honestly, I kind of see Skimbel being like a skelting tenor. So yeah, that could be fun. But just having that image in my head of four characters from Cats in a barbershop quartet.

[49:02] Mike Abrams: I like it. I like it. Okay, most important question. So my whole show centers around, I don't think Grizabella's the right choice. So I want to hear you, Bryce, who's your Jellicle choice and why?

[49:10] Bryce Bayer: My Jellicle choice is Gus.

[49:14] Mike Abrams: Gus.

[49:15] Bryce Bayer: Hands down.

[49:16] Mike Abrams: Great. No more questions.

[49:18] Bryce Bayer: No more questions. Yeah, no questions asked. I just think that he provides, which it's so hard to compete with memory and stuff like that. And the way our show was set up was Grizabella comes out at the end of act one and she sings a snippet of memory and it's all acapella. And then she goes to the piano. We had a piano on stage with the lid torn off. And she plays memory and sings it. She accompanies herself. And there's this projection of her face on the moon. So that's how our first act ended. And then the same kind of visual happens in act two before memory. And then she comes out and sings the crap out of that. So it is hard to compete with the way our production was set up that I would choose someone else. But I just think Gus gives such an emotional gut punch with his song. And at least me as Munkustrap in our production was so hard for me to be like, come on, is this not the one? Please. So yeah, even stepping out of that, I feel like that's my choice.

[50:34] Mike Abrams: Grizabella, you referred to her as the older teacher that's coming to ruin your book club.

[50:39] Bryce Bayer: Teacher or guardian, parent of some sort.

[50:42] Mike Abrams: So what's the acceptance in? Because the whole point is you have to embrace her at the end of memory. So what does that feel like in that point? What was the story there?

[50:51] Bryce Bayer: Memory for us was–let me back up a little bit too, because Munk has that line that says, okay, now we're kind of shifting to we're doing the thing now.

[51:03] Mike Abrams: To make the choice, yeah.

[51:04] Bryce Bayer: Yeah, now we're going to make the choice. And then she's entering on that music change on the dun, dun, dun. She comes out again. Everyone's startled by her and everything. And she plants herself center and she starts to sing. And we're still shutting her. No one's looking at her. She's the only one in light. And all of us are quite literally just–whether we're looking down, looking at each other, we're just not looking at her the entire time. Until kind of like the bridge, she kind of has this moment with Rumpelteazer. Rumpelteazer has that line of–who traditionally sings that? It's usually Cillabob or Jemima or–

[51:56] Mike Abrams: Yeah, in ours it was Rumpel.

[51:57] Bryce Bayer: Yeah, okay. It's a character you definitely didn't have.

[52:00] Bryce Bayer: Yes, a character we definitely didn't have. In ours, it was Rumble. She comes and starts to sing that line. And she's kind of reaching her hand out and Grizabella's reaching her hand out. And people are like–I think it's our Jellylorum goes up to her and is like, don't touch her, get away from her, get away from her. And then that brings her to the climax with a, touch me! And she's kind of rushing the group a little bit. And we kind of all have this collective moment, which I think was really cool because this wasn't really directed. It wasn't super specific. And I think Tim did that intentionally because he wanted us to find that moment in the song where we were so–we're shunning her, we're shunning her, we're shunning her. She's singing, she's singing, she's singing. And now we have that–we have to face it. We have to face it. And I think it just had that moment of like, okay, I think she's getting what she wants. She's finally asking us, please, just this one time, let me in, let me in. And we kind of all turn to her and we're like, okay, we kind of get it now. You want to be here, that's okay. We understand. And then I think there was a light shift in a music change where Old Deuteronomy stands up and kind of goes to every single one of us, addresses every single one of us, is like, is this okay? Can we finally let her in? Can we finally do it?

[53:18] Mike Abrams: And then you send her out?

[53:19] Bryce Bayer: And then we send her out.

[53:20] Mike Abrams: We let her in and we let her out.

[53:22] Bryce Bayer: Yeah, right away. I think–

[53:23] Mike Abrams: It's like, yeah, read the book with us today and then we're gonna–no more.

[53:26] Bryce Bayer: Yeah, no more. Which is so interesting because it's like, I feel like even then, there's no context in the show of whether we have to send somebody up to the Heaviside Lair. It's a song, but we're not directly speaking like, we are sending Grizabella up to the Heaviside Lair. There's no lyrics for that. I think that part's much clearer in the traditional format because the whole thing is like in the beginning, it's once a year, they come to make the Jellicle choice, who's it gonna be? And then it's like, who will it be? Who will it be? And then it's like, then they're in the process of making the choice. That's why they're doing this whole thing. That's why they have the ball. And then as they're about to make the choice, she comes back and they embrace her and then she becomes the choice. So that's kind of why. So that story to me, very hard for someone if you're watching it the first time to piece all that together. But it is right in the first song of like, or not first song, it's in that beginning of like, this is what's happening and then watch. Whereas in your book club version, which I love, it is a little different of like, you're welcoming her in, but there's not that like, all right, we got to immediately make, we're making a choice. I almost now interpret yours as we're doing T.S. Eliot for our book club today. And part of T.S. Eliot is a choice, is picking somebody as part of the ball. And so that's just how you kind of end up with your thing there. And yeah, Gus still should have probably been picked.

[55:00] Bryce Bayer: Yeah, I do think that Gus should have been picked. And yeah, I think Grizabella makes a strong case for herself.

[55:08] Mike Abrams: Yeah, Memory is great.

[55:10] Bryce Bayer: Memory is great. But man, that song that Gus sings really did something for me every single night. I just love it so much.

[55:20] Mike Abrams: I love it. Well, this has been so fun. How can people stay in touch with you? Link the tour for Music Man, so if it comes to a city near you, go see it. But what's your social media is and how can people stay in touch with you?

[55:34] Bryce Bayer: My Instagram is at bbayer7, B-B-A-Y-E-R, the number seven, Bayer like the aspirin. And that's kind of really all. I'm not really active on anything else, to be honest.

[55:49] Mike Abrams: We'll link that. And then, yeah, go see the Music Man if it's in your town.

[55:53] Bryce Bayer: Yes, please. We are launching it, I think, right after New Year's. I'm teching after New Year's. And then first stop, we open in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

[56:04] Mike Abrams: Okay. If you're in Fayetteville, I've been there. Beautiful city. If you're in Fayetteville, check it out. And yeah, thanks for coming on and sharing a ton more information. I'm still waiting. You're gonna have to text. You're gonna have to get a video at some point.

[56:18] Bryce Bayer: I will. I will get my hands on that one.

[56:20] Mike Abrams: There's a lot of people that are interested in seeing this in some capacity.

[56:24] Bryce Bayer: And also, thank you to anyone out there that, I guess, looked up our production or plugged it to you. I don't know if you heard about it before someone else told you through word of mouth or anything.

[56:38] Mike Abrams: Word of mouth.

[56:40] Bryce Bayer: That's awesome.

[56:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah, because it was a non-traditional version. And then there was a lot this summer. There were a lot of different productions this summer. So it was fun to kind of see all of them happening in succession in some ways.

[56:54] Bryce Bayer: And they're still going. I keep hearing about other ones. It's still on international tour. I think they're in Greece right now. There's one in Australia still going on. The one in New Jersey finished recently. I mean, it's been continuous. And there's another one that was just teased for outside of London next year, Joker Ball in March. Cats is having its little revival and renaissance here. It's added for more versions.

[57:22] Bryce Bayer: Me too. Me too. Hopefully, I can sink my teeth into another production of it soon. I would love to do it again, specifically Munkustrap. It was such an awesome experience.

[57:34] Mike Abrams: Amazing.

[57:35] Bryce Bayer: Yeah.

[57:35] Mike Abrams: Well, this was so fun. Thank you for coming on.

[57:38] Bryce Bayer: Thank you.

[57:39] Mike Abrams: And thanks, everyone else, for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown, The Cat's Hatch Feat. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of us' podcasts. Follow us on social media at theronkatdiet or check our website, theronkatdiet.com.