This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:16] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. I had the privilege of seeing his incredible Macavity when I traveled to Frankfurt for the International Tour, and I'm so excited to have him here today because this is all fresh in his mind. He is still on this tour. So welcome, Marco Venturini, and thank you for joining me.

[0:37] Marco Venturini: I am very happy to be present, Mike.

[0:42] Mike Abrams: I had a blast in Frankfurt, so I'm slowly... I've loved working through your cast slowly and hearing all the different perspectives, and you also got to start in the China section of this tour, so I've loved hearing the differences between those two. So we will get to all that, but I always start at the beginning, which is your cat's history. So when was your first introduction to this musical?

[1:05] Marco Venturini: Well, mine is a little bit unique, actually. There's this recording. No, I'm joking. It's the same as everyone else. There's nothing unique about it. The only thing that's unique about it, I would say... So when I was 15, I started dabbling with ballet, and one of my dance teachers just gave me the... It was a DVD, to be fair, of the iconic recording. I took it home. I just put it on and was obsessed with the soundtrack. I'm Italian. I grew up in Italy, and so I was trying to make sense of a lot of it. It was difficult with the language barrier and trying to make sense of the text, and I just remember trying to Google for hours on end what the word jellicle meant without finding an explanation anywhere, and I just remember it would drive me nuts, because I was like, what the heck does jellicle mean?

[2:04] Mike Abrams: What's your answer now?

[2:06] Marco Venturini: Well, now I have an answer. It's like a sort of collective chosen name for a family. But at the time, I just wanted to know what it meant. Again, as much as I watched it on repeat, the meaning of it is so difficult. It's so beyond your grasp until you're in it.

[2:27] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Oh, totally.

[2:29] Marco Venturini: I was much more focused on the more face value of it rather than the deeper parts of it. As a dancer, I'm also sure it's a little bit like you're watching the movement and all this stuff, and I think that's part of why even for me, this show exists, is I'm not a dancer. I'm not a singer. So I was watching story and only story. I was like, oh yeah, this is great dancing, but I know mentally how difficult this looks, but I've never done it. I've never tried to do it. So I was purely trying to pick apart the plot, and that's why we're here today.

[3:00] Marco Venturini: Well, that's why we're here today. But well, I guess for me, it was sort of the opposite. I guess my dance teacher gave it to me as a reference to what a really advanced, highly skilled presentation of realized dance in musical theatre looks like. And so to me especially, in Italy, there isn't really a musical theatre scene whatsoever. To me, it felt like something that was almost like a parallel universe was so far beyond my reach. And I just remember having the thought watching it of this is the highest achievement one could ever hope to reach if they were to pursue a career in this. So it was cool, 15 years later, to have this sort of full-cycle moment.

[3:49] Mike Abrams: It's interesting to hear you say that, because again, I didn't grow up doing that. And so I grew up playing sports, so the pinnacle is the professional league, the peak league. And in musical theatre, there's so many shows, and there's so many classical, historic shows. And I've heard so many times that as a dancer especially, that Cats is the peak show. And it's so fun to me because it's such a weird show. It's such an odd, strange thing, but it has become that's the one everyone wants to do if you're a dancer or just in general for your career.

[4:23] Marco Venturini: Absolutely. I would say if you're a dancer, it's unlikely. I mean, obviously, it might be slightly changing with newer generations, I guess, but especially in terms of those of us who craved that classic musical theatre dance training, there is no show where you'll be doing any more dancing than that. So it's really the most intense thing you'll ever do in musical theatre.

[4:50] Mike Abrams: What did you figure out when you first saw it? You said you were searching just for Agelical Cat, but were you searching for the rest of the story? How much were you digging into?

[4:59] Marco Venturini: Not really. No, I watched it on repeat, and I listened to the songs on repeat. And for me, I developed an independent passion. I had interests that were very isolating in a way, musical theatre, which, again, doesn't exist in Italy. So I didn't really have anyone to share this with other than myself. And then for some reason, I was obsessed with English, and I sort of taught myself a lot of English through watching things, listening to music, watching television shows, films in English. And so to me, there was an element of just learning the language that wasn't necessarily tied to the meaning of what they were saying, more so to just like, oh, this word means this thing, and rhymes and the magic of that, which is why it was so frustrating to not find a translation for Agelical. Because obviously, you know, if you're translating pheasant and grouse, I'm like, okay, I know what that means. But so many of the things were, oh, Irvin, I remember trying to translate the word Gumby, you know, that Gumby cat. And I was like, what is a Gumby? What's a Gumby? I mean, I'm thinking about that now, like, there's so much, the names are just wild. What's Skimbleshank? Do people actually name these?

[6:12] Marco Venturini: It's also like certain names sound like words that you would recognize. Like a deuteronomy sounds like a concept of something, but it's not. So there's even that layer of like, certain words you almost recognize, and you're like, I feel like I should know what this means. Even like Mistoffelees, obviously, is a reference to certain, you know, there's names that are tied to mystical things in there. You can't quite place it. It's like remembering something that you don't quite know what it is, which is interesting.

[6:47] Mike Abrams: What was the most educational song from an English perspective? Like, what did you learn the most from?

[6:53] Marco Venturini: Um, well, I focused, I remember being like hyper focused on the first act. And then in the second act, I would almost always just kind of go from Macavity onwards, which, you know, is ironic, but I wasn't really. So I just remember Rum Tum Tugger, Mungojerrie and Rumpelteazer were the ones that I would really, because that's just so much like clever wordplay and the rhymes and everything. So interesting. And then Macavity to an extent, but Rum Tum Tugger was my number one sort of on repeat thing. It's such a clever song. You know, the writing is just brilliant. I mean, I don't know if anything else in the show captures the essence of a real cat more than that song.

[7:44] Mike Abrams: That is true. That is true. It's perfect.

[7:46] Marco Venturini: There's, um, two songs that are very distinctly or have distinctly British parts that I, as you know, someone who speaks, you know, American English with like, there's terminology. I was like, I don't even know what that is, or I can figure it out through context clues. But in Gumby Cat, in Jenny Adots, tatting was not sure what that was at first.

[8:10] Mike Abrams: Um, yeah, I was like, I assumed it was crochet. I thought it was tattooing. I was like, that's way funnier.

[8:18] Marco Venturini: Yeah. And then the other one for me was, um, Bus for Jones, because the word gentlemen's club is a different meaning in the United States.

[8:30] Mike Abrams: So that was, that was kind of a fun one to play with because it's, uh, it's, it's a place where people take off their clothes is a gentleman's club in the United States.

[8:40] Marco Venturini: And there you go, which I don't believe is the intention.

[8:43] Mike Abrams: I don't think that was the intent, but it definitely made Bus for Jones quite funnier. Very interesting. If you think about it from that perspective.

[8:50] Marco Venturini: Well, this is, this was the other thing that I couldn't reconcile was there are so many references to actually like a lot of real life places and things, um, which again, to me, because they were set in such a fantastical, uh, you know, scenery was completely lost on me, you know, like there's all these pubs and like during Gus's song, there's, you know, a myriad different references to actors and things, which again, completely went over my head. I mean, let's be honest, I wasn't exactly jamming out to Gus the theater cat.

[9:18] Mike Abrams: That is one of the songs that I would skip. Sorry, Gus.

[9:22] Marco Venturini: Oh no. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a very, it's a well done song, but it's not a, it's not a bop that you're going to go like.

[9:30] Mike Abrams: Again, I mean, I feel like out of all of the songs, that one really speaks to a specific type of audience and it's harder to sort of like relate it to a broader, there's less to sort of hold on to in terms of like the music and the orchestration and the dancing. It's a very, you know, it's beautiful.

[9:45] Marco Venturini: That's what I say. Yeah. That's why the show works so well. Something relates to somebody, you know, like you've, I've had people go in depth about how much they love that song. And you're telling me how much you love tugger. And I constantly am singing scramble shanks right now. So it's like, it's, there's a little bit for everybody, um, which is so fun to me. And that's, I think why it's so successful.

[10:04] Marco Venturini: For sure. I mean, I, I just, I mean, again, I could go on forever, but I think one of the, the things that makes the show so brilliant. And the reason why it's been such a global success is I don't know that you could create something that strikes a better balance between artistic expression and commercial viability.

[10:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[10:24] Marco Venturini: In terms of like the story is so amorphous and sort of up for interpretation that it truly is for absolutely anyone. But at the same time with, through production, choreography, like just the more logistical aspects of it, you are presenting an incredible piece of theater, regardless of whether you get it or not.

[10:41] Mike Abrams: So.

[10:43] Marco Venturini: Yeah. All ages can come.

[10:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It doesn't matter if you speak the language.

[10:47] Marco Venturini: Not at all. Actually, one thing that your, at least the program that I bought in Germany, there was a really cool page in there. I should, I should take a picture of it and share it at some point, but it shows where Cats has been done in the world. It's like a global map.

[11:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[11:01] Marco Venturini: It's got like little stars everywhere. And I was, I was sitting there. I knew about a lot of them, you know, over the years I've like met people who have done them or I've been, you know, slowly trying to get people who did different productions to hear all the different versions. And I was like on that page going, wait, I didn't know about this one. When did this one happen? Where did you stop here? And it works because you don't need to speak English to still enjoy it.

[11:25] Marco Venturini: Not at all. I mean, again, for me, it's quite special. It's so like strange. I've been, I moved to the UK 10 years ago this year to go to university and then work there and everything. So my family hasn't had a lot of chances to see me perform. I mean, my parents are superheroes. They try to always come out to things. They made it all the way to China to see the show.

[11:44] Mike Abrams: Wow.

[11:45] Marco Venturini: But very often shows I've done, obviously they are extremely left out because they don't speak English. So, you know, they'll come and support, but, you know, it's other musicals where there's a lot more components of story and plot and whatever, even jokes. Like that's one of the things that they always feel like left out when everyone else around you is laughing and you don't know why. So in a way, it's so special to me that they can enjoy something like this to a degree where I'm like, you actually don't, it really doesn't matter if you understand the words because I promise you most of the people don't.

[12:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah, they don't know.

[12:18] Marco Venturini: So it really doesn't matter.

[12:21] Mike Abrams: I was praying, I was praying you guys are going to do it in German when I was there.

[12:25] Marco Venturini: Really?

[12:27] Mike Abrams: Because I really want to see it in another language because I have cast albums from either official actual albums or some, I don't know where they were, acquired bootlegs that have been sent to me in multiple different languages. And it's so fun to listen to it because it's all the same, but it's different.

[12:44] Marco Venturini: Of course. I mean, I think certain translations are probably more successful than others. I have attempted to do a little bit of, I just have a personal interest in translation and I've tried to rewrite some of the songs. It is so difficult in Italian. There are too many syllables in our dictionary. It just doesn't work.

[13:04] Mike Abrams: So it's tough. But I actually remember I auditioned for the Vienna one that was years ago and they had me sing some of it in German. And I remember thinking, this is so strange.

[13:16] Marco Venturini: Yeah, it's different.

[13:17] Mike Abrams: For the melody to be exactly the same and then the words be so, to me, outlandish. It was like, oh.

[13:22] Marco Venturini: Yeah, I've definitely heard some of the German. Japan, they have incredible performances and they're well-recorded so you can get that copy. I interviewed someone who did it in Mexico and so hearing it in Spanish was kind of fun.

[13:38] Marco Venturini: Spanish is easier for translation because again, it's sort of like shortened words.

[13:43] Mike Abrams: Well, in China, we sang Little Memory and after Moments of Happiness, we would sing it in Mandarin, which was very exciting. And it was funny sort of coming out of it because that moment would always get a massive applause from the audience. They were just so ecstatic that we would sing in Chinese. And then when we went back to the normal version in Germany, going back to that moment and having no applause felt so strange. It was like, isn't that supposed to be a massive reaction to this moment?

[14:11] Marco Venturini: Oh, wait. You need to do it in German there.

[14:13] Mike Abrams: I don't think it would elicit the same response. I don't think people would lose their minds and be like, okay, they can sing a little bit of German. Whereas Mandarin is like, whoa, this company took the time to try and learn it. Obviously, butchered it, but what can you do?

[14:29] Marco Venturini: You at least did something, too. I mean, that's a cool experience. I mean, it's so well-received there. It's a massive fan base there.

[14:41] Marco Venturini: It's astonishing. I mean, the people you meet at Stage Door, they will tell you fan theories and things that they think and give you gifts. And it just means the world. It's so special.

[14:51] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's really nice. So let's move to that, because that's when you, 2024, that's when you joined. That's the first time you've ever done Cats, right?

[14:59] Marco Venturini: This was the introduction, and you're signed on as Macavity.

[15:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And so this is, now you have this dream that you've learned and was the pinnacle and you've reached it. So what was the beginning like? What was the first couple of rehearsals and learning the story? Did you flat out ask what's a Jellicle Cat and to get that answer then?

[15:21] Marco Venturini: No, I sort of sat back and took it all in. I really can't put into words how, because again, I don't want to reiterate the fact, but because my path is slightly different to a lot of the people that end up working in musical theatre in the UK, they are probably from the UK. They have had access to these things a lot more readily. Maybe when they were little, they went to see shows, things like that. To me, when I was growing up and learning about musical theatre, I was almost piecing together a puzzle that I didn't understand what it was. I had small references, but I didn't know that it was a thing, right? So to go from that to the small incremental steps that led me to actually getting there, if I look back on that journey, it really makes me emotional. I couldn't believe it. So when I got there, to realise that I had travelled from my dad's sofa watching this thing on a laptop to being into it was mind-blowing. Again, a show that I really love and think is one of the greatest pieces of musical theatre. I was very intimidated at first. You always get those thoughts of, God, was I just the best they could do at the time? Can I actually do this? Obviously, I knew the choreography from the recording, but it's not the same as learning it in person, of course. And also, especially Macavity, the fight, the solo into the fight, is really strange timing, and the music is quite particular. So you get quite flustered because it's a moment where you are, to begin with, on your own. So it was quite intimidating. I personally didn't get it right away. It took me a while to practice it and perfect it. And I always forget that whenever swings maybe come and ask me, oh, can we go over this? Or if I've had to do rehearsals with people that are learning it for the first time, I'm like, God, it is difficult to count. It's really quite tricky. The first few days of rehearsals, getting to meet everyone, we were so privileged to have Christy Cartwright lead pretty much the entirety of the rehearsal period. It does start with just a sit-down and a very generous offering of all of the backstory, which, again, I was a massive fan, really had no idea. I remember on day one, after the meet and greet, I was talking to Dane casually and at least there isn't much to worry about. There's not much of a plot to it. And he sort of looked at me in horror.

[18:04] Marco Venturini: Wrong person to say that to. Well, I didn't know. But he sort of was like, oh, you're about to learn. You're about to see that there absolutely is. So every single word that came out of Christy's mouth, I was just sort of in awe and would take it all in. And normally with musicals, you tend to start with the music, because it's one of the things that you want to really get in your head as quickly as possible, because it's very complex. So just sitting in a circle with a piano, with the musical director or the musical supervisor and learning the songs, and even just hearing the bare bones of the melody from a piano, immediate goosebumps and things like that can't really be conjured up in any other way. The sense of nostalgia that is also accomplishment is such a unique combination.

[19:57] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I've been dying to hear Christy's story. You have to. In some way. And so I'm like, someone's just got to record it one day. But what do you remember of that? And I'm going to ask in the way of, like you said, you didn't know there was much of a plot. What was kind of the most eye-opening piece for you to hear from that story?

[20:18] Marco Venturini: Well, it's the Macavity side of things. Again, if you take it at face value in the show, you don't necessarily realize what his relationship to a lot of the other cats is. You don't get to see that back story. Obviously, there's those small moments with Demeter. But again, if you don't have any further knowledge, they're so small that if you only see the show once, you wouldn't even miss them.

[20:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I probably wouldn't even catch it, for sure.

[20:46] Marco Venturini: Yeah, you wouldn't even know. So the relationship to Demeter, to Bombalurina, to Grizabella, what is inferred that he does, what his MO is, in terms of what's happening behind the scenes. That was so shocking. It made a lot of sense, and it gave a lot of depth to that character. Well, not necessarily Macavity. Macavity, I don't think, has a lot of depth. But the girls, definitely. Really puts into perspective. It definitely gave me a lot of complicated feelings about the song, Macavity, which I'm sure everyone has, once you get to know what it's about. But it definitely magnified Grizabella's story to a completely different degree. Because she could just be an outcast. She could just be...if that part of the story wasn't there, it wouldn't be as meaningful.

[20:43] Mike Abrams: We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[20:48] Mike Abrams: So for someone who's maybe either listened to this, most people probably have a pretty good knowledge listening to this. But there's going to be some that don't. How are you playing that? What is that story? What was shared with you? And what have you either added to or really embraced as you've done this for the past two-plus years?

[21:04] Marco Venturini: Well, my idea of Macavity, specifically, with the sort of base knowledge that we've established with his relationship with him, Tugger and Monk, probably being siblings, the three of them being Oji Toronomi's children, I think the way I go about it is once Macavity started getting consciousness of these powers that he has of sway over people and hypnotic powers, which are described in the song, obviously, it sort of got him drunk on it to a degree where he started disassociating with anything more interpersonal. All of his interpersonal relationships probably started feeling more and more meaningless because he can control what the other person does and says. So this probably got him to a point where he became a complete sociopath, lost all sorts of empathy. And I actually think there's something kind of cool about a bad guy who's pure evil. There are no redeeming qualities whatsoever. It's his three words. There is just no redeeming qualities at all. And so the idea of this sort of agent of chaos that appears out of nowhere wreaks absolute havoc. Obviously, not a big fan of his work in terms of what he does, especially with the way he kidnaps and abuses the other female cats.

[22:40] Mike Abrams: So what is that version? So I think everyone is the one that's like the most, I always use this as an example, because when I tell people how kind of wild cats is a story is, but also how open-ended it is. I was like, one of the few things that there's absolutely no disagreement on is the Demeter relationship. And that there was some type of abuse and it was abusive relationship. And that's where you see her skittish, timidness throughout the whole show comes from that. And that to me is also kind of wild. That's like one of the few things everyone's like, for sure, we're 100% in agreement on is this. But what about the Grizabella Bombayrina piece?

[23:20] Marco Venturini: So for me, Bob is like, to me, is a really cool version of somebody who was able, because she's one of the strongest, she's probably the strongest personality amongst the female cats, at least. There is something for me of her, this strength that she has, was something that was able to clock what Macavity was trying to accomplish early enough that she was able to separate from it, which is obviously why then she's so protective of Demeter. And I think it leads to her disdain for Grizabella as well. It's like, you know, you didn't have the, you should have known better to an extent. And at the same time, I just think, again, you know, Grizabella, someone who was so beautiful and had so much life and, you know, essence of, you know, probably was very, just a really charming, lively person, cat, I guess. You know, it's not, there is definitely a fascination with power and with, and also, you know, in a tribe that comes together so consistently, to have an example of something that is so different, you know, Macavity is probably the most polar opposite to anyone in that tribe. There is obviously an element of charm and interest and intrigue, and then it just becomes like such a slippery slope that where do you draw the line of like, well, now you've gone too far, you know, now you're irredeemable.

[25:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it is very interesting, because I've always viewed Macavity as like, you could play it one of two ways, at least from just purely plot perspective. You could either play it like you're saying, pure evil, like broke every human law, like no redeeming qualities, the worst evil character that come in and tries to capture and maybe murder, you know, like you are, there's no good intent of taking Old Deuteronomy. The other version is playing it as like, this is kind of the troubled older brother, who's like still family, you know, there's still an element to like, all right, we're, you know, we'll, we deal with him, but we're the ones that have to kind of like, all right, we'll go get dad back because he's just causing some chaos. You know, there's that level of like, you're not that bad, but I just feel bad. So it's interesting to hear that you're playing the more evil version. I kind of like that.

[25:52] Marco Venturini: The level of reaction that you get every time there's a Macavity scare does not really warrant for like a timid version of the character or like, you know, there's nothing goofy. They are petrified. One of the notes that we get all the time is like, during the scares, you have to fear for your life. You don't know where he is. You know, he has all of these abilities and you don't know what he's going to do next. And we know that he's done really heinous things, you know, we don't necessarily know that he's murdered anyone, but like, is the other stuff that he's done not, you know, as bad, if not worse? I don't know.

[26:25] Mike Abrams: Yeah. You know, and I think to me is like the kidnapping of all deuteronomy is like something else, something new that he's trying to do because of the, like the meet up on ballerina incident where he's kind of like failed to, um, to use his, his evil hypnosis on.

[26:44] Marco Venturini: Oh, interesting. Yeah.

[26:45] Mike Abrams: Okay. So you, you're saying, so your version is because he's failed with these two, you know, female cats, his next thing is like, you know, I'm gonna try something different. Let me go catch him.

[26:57] Marco Venturini: Yeah. He's a bit bitter. He's like, I'm going to, I'm going to pull like a big one this, this time. I've kind of always felt, maybe this is me just putting everything into the Jellicle of choice story that he's like, I'm not getting picked. I'm not letting anybody go. Like I'm, I'm going to ruin tonight for that reason. But I think if that, because I've thought about this, I just think if that was, because, you know, the Jellicle happens every year, I just think the tribe would be slightly better prepared if he was, you know, turning up so often and they literally have no, you know, even monk bless his heart, who tries his best gets absolutely wasted.

[27:37] Marco Venturini: Well, actually, you know, he does put up a fight to an extent, but I I'm convinced that, you know, the fight ends just because Macavity wants it to. He's like, you know, I'm, I think the, you know, leaving them with the knowledge that he could absolutely be back at any point terrorizes them and stresses them out way more than, you know, actually fighting them or like the not knowing is the worst part.

[28:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I love that your justification is that the Jellicle security should be better because they have their party tonight. Like they need better bouncers.

[28:09] Marco Venturini: I mean, Macavity's got two goons, where are your goons?

[28:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. And there's a few strapping, you know, there's a few strapping, Alonzo, Monk, Admetus. Tumble Brutus.

[28:21] Marco Venturini: Yeah, they should sort of be able to do something, you know.

[28:26] Mike Abrams: I mean, Alonzo tries and also gets wasted, you know, it's just not as sweet. You have to boost some Jellicle security here.

[28:31] Marco Venturini: They need bouncers at the door. There's a couple that are, you know, there's some with some mystical psychic abilities. There's magical cats, like, you know, people have means. We have a whole train running over something.

[28:46] Mike Abrams: Okay, so I do love the more evil version because the line that I've, it's still like, to me, it's just the easiest joke, but it's something that's so crazy that it's in there is that he's broken every human law. Because what that insinuates is a lot like that insinuates he's murdered somebody. He's done everything under the sun, which is fun to think about because there's so many obscure laws in America that are like, oh, did he do this?

[29:19] Marco Venturini: Exactly.

[29:19] Mike Abrams: Jaywalking. Tax evasion. You know, like, he can be like, what else has he done?

[29:24] Marco Venturini: There are so many things.

[29:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah, but that does kind of lean more into the evilness. I do. He is truly evil. I mean, obviously, that's very funny. I do sometimes because obviously, it's broken every human law, and then it's the law of gravity. I've always sort of thought of it as like the laws of nature, you know, because he has magical powers.

[29:41] Marco Venturini: Okay.

[29:43] Mike Abrams: That's more like, you know, he can disappear. He can fly. He can levitate. He can do all of these things.

[29:46] Marco Venturini: That's way more practical and probably accurate than what the poetry was going for.

[29:54] Mike Abrams: To an extent, more practical. Obviously, he can't really. Also, we do have proof that he has, to an extent, some powers because he does take control. He hypnotizes the tribe, and then he also appears in different parts of the stage too close together to be moving, you know, to be getting there by walking. But to me, I've always thought maybe there's an element also of when the legend of what you can do takes on a life of its own. So, actually, your abilities are really blown out of proportion, like more so than what you're actually able to do. And it's just your reputation and the terror that you bring is enough.

[30:33] Marco Venturini: Totally. Yeah.

[30:34] Mike Abrams: I will say also, my only gripe with that part of the show, I think like, and again, I'm a massive fan. I love doing it so much. I just adore it. But I will say the times I've been able to watch it, to me, it's hard to reconciliate the way he's spoken about in the song and the tone of the song, Macavity, with the way that the choreography happens in the fight. Because there's something of the song that almost lets you think that he's always in control and he knows exactly what he's doing. But a lot of the physical language of how he's presented is so manic and so high energy and so intense and so sort of non-stop that, to me, there's a little bit of disconnect between. I don't know. I feel like he would be a little bit more suave in his doing. But at the same time, he's a psychopath. So it kind of makes sense that it's...

[31:41] Marco Venturini: Is some of that because of who's singing the song? It's coming from the two people that have had some of the most traumatic, but also experiential pieces with Macavity that's like, hey, here's our version of it.

[31:59] Marco Venturini: Yeah, it's through a lens that's obviously not. The lens that they are singing the song through is not the reality of what the character actually is, for sure.

[32:10] Mike Abrams: Again, you've been doing this for almost two years now with a lot of the same people, because I know a lot of you transitioned.

[32:15] Marco Venturini: Yeah, about half of you.

[32:16] Mike Abrams: Yeah, about half. How much do you all discuss this? After the rehearsals and you did the main things, do you talk about some of the plot and pieces? Or is it just like, go on stage, do your job, go hang out at the pub?

[32:32] Marco Venturini: I can't tell you. Because the cast that came together in China, there were a few people that had done it before, but most of us, I would say, hadn't. And we just sort of lucked out between people who were really excited about doing the show, people like me, who maybe it was their dream show, and the time that we had with Chrissy, who really weaves into the rehearsal process a lot of the story and the meaning and the layers. So it kind of naturally started a lot of theorycrafting and discussion of the law, constantly, with a lot of people. But I remember, mainly, I would hang out a lot with our monk and our monger, Jerry. And it was just like, who's related to who, and who does what, and how do you play? Especially because both those characters have a lot of different ways to be played. Is monk related to Grizabella? What's his relationship? Mungo Jerry, again, I think is so amazing that you have the option to play at least three different versions, if not more, of the relationship with Rumpelstiltskin. I mean, again, that's so brilliant. Because I remember when I watched it growing up, I was like, well, yeah, they're together. That was always the version that I... And I was like, oh, no, there's so many different versions.

[34:00] Marco Venturini: Yeah, they could be brother, sister.

[34:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And also, you know, I think it's funny. There's a moment in The Ghoul where the boys sort of... After the bomb step, the boys go and pick up the girls. And it's all sort of like couples. It's Alonzo and Cassandra, Mungo and Rump, Tugger and Bombalurina, sort of like it's... The instruction is to give it sort of a sexual tension. But then it's the twins are also coupled up. And you are reminded that cats are not as strict in terms of incest.

[34:35] Marco Venturini: Yeah, they're cats.

[34:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, they're cats. I don't know if that's okay to say.

[34:40] Marco Venturini: Yeah, I mean, they're all together, right?

[34:42] Mike Abrams: They are all together. It's one family, is the way it seems. You know, obviously, the twins have this specific characteristic about them. But technically, a lot of these cats would be from the same litter. So technically, a lot of us are twins.

[34:57] Marco Venturini: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's... The family tree is funny to think about when you put it from a human lens, because it's like, oh, who's mom and dad? And it's like, you're right, there's a litter. They're all probably from a couple. You know, there's about three generations of cats in the show. So, you know, you don't count old uteronomy. So everyone else is pretty much, you know...

[35:18] Mike Abrams: So, you know, you can play Mungo and Rump as siblings, as well as lovers, as well as best friends. So you don't have to pick. I enjoy... So to me, that's one of my favorite parts of this show, is that you can do that and you have that kind of variation. And I've always fascinated by how much of that is like, you know, I work a different type of job. And it's like, there's people that when I talk to outside of work, it's like, we're not going to talk about work at all. Like, it's like, we're just gonna... For you, I'll get off stage and then we'll talk about life or whatever. And there's sometimes where it's like, it's so infused with what you do that you do talk about it a little bit, especially early on.

[36:01] Marco Venturini: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I would say not as much anymore. Definitely. I mean, it's been a really long time now. And also, you know, with some of the people that have come in later, they might have not had a chance to, you know, because of time and logistics and everything, you don't get as much of that. So you try and like, bring some of it up, maybe in like... But also, you know, it's also absolutely fine to just do this as a job and not have to fall into the well of the world of cats.

[36:24] Marco Venturini: You don't have to be... To some crazy extent. I mean, the thing is, for me, especially, like, yeah, it's Macavity is the cat that's more famous. But really, you spend most of your show as Admetus or Plato in America. And I went into like ridiculous depth with my interpersonal relationships as Admetus, which actually, we are very, very lucky. We all have been given a chance to watch the show during the time that we've been in it.

[37:00] Mike Abrams: Oh, nice.

[37:01] Marco Venturini: Which is amazing. It's really rare. And, you know, Dane is amazing at making sure that everyone gets a chance to see it, which is really special. I've not often seen shows that I've been in.

[37:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[37:04] Marco Venturini: And one of my main takeaways from watching it was like, again, because I love it and I'm in it and I want to live it to the fullest, I try to give it my all on stage every day. But the Admetus track, to an extent, is designed to be sort of like slightly less visible because it serves the purpose of not being like, hold on a minute, that's the same person who's doing those two things. So, you know, I'm like killing myself and then I'm like, oh, Admetus is not really like, doesn't get a lot of spotlight other than, which makes a lot of sense, obviously, because you get your spotlight as Macavity. But I just thought it was funny. Like I'm, you know, working out my relationship. Like I play as like Jelly as my mom and I have all sorts of like little moments with people and really have like, you know, the way I look up to Monk and all sorts of things. And then I'm like, obviously it's amazing and it's fun for me to play, but I'm like, none of this obviously is available for the audience to see or understand.

[38:01] Mike Abrams: It is so true because there's, as I've seen the show more now and I've, you know, become way more familiar with it, there is all the ensemble cats in the beginning, especially, where I'm like, there's Bus for Johns and Gus is out there somewhere. Like as whatever name they've picked for that character. In some productions, they've actually made Grizzabella go out there.

[38:25] Marco Venturini: Yeah, and so it's like, where's the baby Grizz dancing in the back? And it is, they are all so hard to find because you're all purposely put in places where it is less visible.

[38:34] Mike Abrams: It's genius. I mean, the staging is genius. I'm sure that some people have had Grizzabella do naming of cats to their face and did not clock that that was the same cat that sings Memory at the end. I'm sure of it. You know, it's astonishing.

[39:01] Marco Venturini: Well, you know, again, Macavity doesn't get a bow, which I'm always a bit like, you know, it's a shame because, yeah. So I always try to do a little reference to Macavity in my bow and like do one of his moves or something that would suggest that this is the actor who portrayed Macavity. But I'm not sure how often it reads and people must be like, why is that cat doing that?

[39:14] Mike Abrams: But I don't know. I just feel bad. To be fair, the first time you're seeing it, you're not remembering most of those names. You don't know. They're like, oh, yeah, that one. That one. Of course, absolutely. You all blur together. If not at all. First time I was just mesmerized. I was like, I could have told you Grizzabella and then that was about it. From like, which cat was which.

[39:34] Marco Venturini: Me too. Like a lot of the cats, I didn't really know before going into it, you know, like the smaller, you know, the Cubbuckety and the, you don't really understand. But I mean, I just think it's so genius to like, even the smaller parts or like people, you know, cats that don't get a song, like the idea of a Cassandra is so genius. Someone that is technically in the background, but has such a distinct look, such a distinct personality, you know, can make such amazing choices. And I just love it. You know, I think it's so, even if you're just ensemble, quote unquote, you have such an awesome part to play.

[40:10] Marco Venturini: There are no other shows with this history.

[40:13] Mike Abrams: Totally.

[40:13] Marco Venturini: It's the most, it's the most, everyone's story is deep. Like there's a lot to every single cat story, even if there's not a song about them, but there's still, there's still relationships and there's still like, that's probably the depth that this show goes into that I've not seen in other ones where, you know, the ensemble's playing five different people because they're switching up to fit their part of the story. Whereas this is like, no, you are that cat for mostly the whole time.

[40:40] Mike Abrams: For the entire time. There's only a few people that play multiple cats here. Other people, you really have to commit that to that character. And, and you're on stage the whole time. It's just like, there's no other thing. And again, even the sort of like you, once you get past the initial, which is something that is acknowledged of like, guys, it's going to feel a bit silly to begin with, to like, but once you can, if you can really dip your mind into like, allowing yourself to, I mean, we all did it growing up as kids, like really live a fantasy. The things that it can unlock. I mean, I honestly, the first few months of doing the show, as soon as the music would start for the ball, it was like we were casting a spell or something, you know, as a, as a unit of people doing exact, this synchronized movement, like all of them. It's just unbelievable. And like, by the end of the Jellicle Ball, I almost felt like I was on drugs. You know, you give yourself so wholeheartedly to this weird, strange thing.

[41:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it is a beauty of musical theater because there's like, elements of where you get to play a biopic and be somebody like, and you're trying to do the best version of them. And then there's others like this, or a lot of Andrew Lloyd Webber, you know, like even his, like you've got Evita, where you're playing someone that's real. And you've got Starlight Express, where you're playing a train or a cat or whatever, you know, it's like, it's, it's kind of a, you get to really perform and act. And you just have to cherish those because you, you can, you know, most of the time you're going to be playing, playing human beings, you know.

[42:06] Marco Venturini: Yeah. The chance to really commit to moving like a cat and doing all of the things that, that involves is incredible.

[42:16] Marco Venturini: It's been like the highest achievement of my career. Like I just have to recognize it. It is funny to be like, that's your paid profession is to go out there and act like a cat for two and a half hours.

[42:25] Mike Abrams: Absolutely. Eight times a week. And it's so hard. It's so unnecessary.

[42:28] Marco Venturini: Oh my God, yeah.

[42:31] Mike Abrams: We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[42:35] Mike Abrams: Let's do some rapid fire. So if you could go on for one night for any cat, who would you want to play?

[42:39] Marco Venturini: Regardless of whether I could actually do it.

[42:42] Mike Abrams: Whether it could, yeah, whether, exactly. Male, female, doesn't matter.

[42:46] Marco Venturini: And Victoria, for sure.

[42:47] Mike Abrams: Victoria, I love it. Put that ballet. Again, and someone else who like, has such iconic moments in the show that are so instrumental to, to the story. And doesn't, I don't know, she always gets her shine. I mean, the White Cat Touch is like, that responsibility of like, being the one to make that plot point happen. It's beautiful.

[43:10] Mike Abrams: Who is your favorite and least favorite cat from a personality standpoint? So who would you want to hang out with? And who would bug you? Ignoring the performers, just the character-wise.

[43:13] Marco Venturini: Sure. Well, favorite personality-wise, I'm going to shine a light on someone who doesn't often. And I'm going to back myself. And I'm going to say Admetus. Because he is fairly secondary. And he does serve a purpose in terms of like, just the immortality later. But his words are, you know, easygoing, protective, loyal, which are very good. And he has that beautiful moment with Victoria, which is very tender and sort of like, genuine and heartfelt with whatever, you know, what that implies. He's a sweetie. He's just a little sweetie, you know?

[43:54] Mike Abrams: Okay. What about least favorite?

[44:00] Marco Venturini: If we're saying like, I would never want to hang out with them. I'm going to stick to what I'm doing to do with Macavity.

[44:06] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[44:07] Marco Venturini: I mean, why would you ever?

[44:08] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you're playing them that evil, you wouldn't want to.

[44:11] Marco Venturini: Nope.

[44:12] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Favorite song in the show?

[44:15] Marco Venturini: Well, as I mentioned growing up, it was Rum Tum Tugger.

[44:18] Mike Abrams: Yep.

[44:18] Marco Venturini: But after being in the show, because I'm not in it, and I get to really listen to it, and often I'm ready by the time the song starts, Skimmelschanks. Because I get to really listen to it, watch it every night. And also sometimes I go and peek at what the band is doing, which is mind-blowing. I mean, you know, the musical element is thrilling. And that song is just amazing, you know? Just fun.

[44:43] Mike Abrams: That stays in your head for sure.

[44:47] Marco Venturini: Completely. The concept of a cow, you know, leading a train is genius. It's so fun. Again, so fun.

[44:54] Mike Abrams: You said that being from Italy and not having a ton of shows translated, so if you could translate, which show, musical theater, non-cast, would you want translated in Italian that you wish you could just go see at home with your parents?

[45:13] Marco Venturini: I think one of the things that the translation sometimes doesn't do very well is if something is set, like if we're talking West Side Story, which is so connected to being in New York City, it's really difficult when you translate it to convey a lot of that because it's so tied to the language, the accent, like a lot of it is a part of it. So I think things like Wicked are really good to translate because there's not as much. Obviously, there's like a reference to Kansas, but it doesn't really matter because that part can stay sort of true to that. But when you're talking something like more fantastical, I mean, Cats would be great, obviously, but it's just very difficult to translate.

[45:50] Mike Abrams: Okay. Most important question. So this show centers around my argument that I don't think Grisbel is the right jellicle choice. So Marco, who is your jellicle choice and why?

[46:03] Marco Venturini: Well, I have two answers because if we're talking, I think of it in terms of who deserves it and who deserves it if we're talking, you know, the idea of the sort of contest of the presentations, right? The nominations, the people, the cats being like, I deserve to because, you know, everyone talks about like who deserves it. But in theory, everyone who presents themselves that night is technically eligible to be picked.

[46:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, to be picked.

[46:36] Marco Venturini: Yeah. So it's not really about your life story, your age. Those things shouldn't really matter. It should just be about in a way who performs the best. If that's the case, the case to me who performs the best and deserves to go is Misto. I don't think anyone else on that stage during that night gives more of a performance than Misto. And he retains all the astronomy. Like, give it to him.

[47:00] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's the American Idol answer.

[47:03] Marco Venturini: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, I think. But if we're talking sort of like more in terms of the story, I think the story is perfect. I think the show is perfect. So for me, it is Grisabella.

[47:13] Mike Abrams: So which one? I'm only letting you pick one.

[47:16] Marco Venturini: Grisabella. I couldn't change the show, especially after learning the story and being in it and seeing Grisabella's journey every night. And I understand what your gripe is with the fact that she should get to enjoy being reunited with her family. But the truth of the Jellicle cat and the Jellicle tribe is that they always have been and they always will be. So it's not really a parting of ways. It's a returning in a different form. And, you know, the essence of it.

[47:46] Mike Abrams: Totally. Yeah. So much of this, my argument centers around the concept of what you think the Heaviside Lair is. And I view it as death and being like, there's that version of that cat is gone. And it's going to be a new version of Grisabella or whatever, which also could be like, I'm not sure that that's even that because a lot of people of Victoria have said that they thought they were last year's choice and that they're now new. And so I'm like, that means that you weren't Victoria before. So I view that as the end, which is why I want her to stay. But I love the fact that you're choosing it from a competition standpoint, because the original joke of this podcast started because I saw Leona Lewis and I immediately thought about the X Factor.

[48:34] Marco Venturini: Of course.

[48:34] Mike Abrams: And I was like, this is the X Factor, but with cats.

[48:34] Marco Venturini: Absolutely.

[48:34] Mike Abrams: That answer is also very different because you picked Massafwies. I picked Massafwies and Tugger together as a boy band. Because that's X Factor does that a ton. That's how One Direction and Fifth Harmony were created. That sounds like those two clearly have something going on. And the thing is, if you're building this mythology of like Ultratoronomy as this wise, all-knowing cat that picks, you know, at the end, he's not going to pick, you know, who did Simon Cowell.

[49:05] Marco Venturini: Well, yes, but I mean, that's not the vibe that you're getting from Ultratoronomy. He's picking whoever's going to make him the most money.

[49:13] Mike Abrams: In the next phase here. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's sort of like cheapens it a little bit, but it does make...

[49:20] Marco Venturini: Totally. And that's where it's like, it is purely... Almost like a fun game. I've been asked this and I don't know the answer because it's hard to answer because it's such a strange hypothetical. But if I would have walked out of the show with any other Grizabella that wasn't Leona Lewis, would I have thought that way? Like would my mind have gone X Factor or would have I watched it from a totally different lens? And if I did, then that joke might not have been made. And this show does like, it's like a sliding doors moment of where this doesn't exist without that moment. It's so crazy, the thoughts that you have.

[49:54] Marco Venturini: In a way, I'm like, you know, celebrity casting is always a bit of a double-edged sword because my first time seeing the show was Nicole Scherzinger, which was amazing. The whole time I was like, that's Nicole Scherzinger. You know, it's hard to like lose yourself in it as much. Luckily, I had, you know, a previous background with it and she was incredible. But it does sort of, it's not really how it's meant to be received, I guess.

[50:19] Mike Abrams: Well, I don't know. It gets people in the theater. So pros and cons.

[50:22] Marco Venturini: It does. And I think with Grizabella, you can get away with it because of the stunt casting. Because if you don't put her in the beginning, you can have her just be much more come in, belt and leave. You can even put her in the beginning. People are not going to know.

[50:31] Mike Abrams: No one's going to recognize.

[50:39] Marco Venturini: Yeah, but I think it'd be harder if it's Nicole Scherzinger and you try to stick her in the back. It's going to look weird.

[50:45] Mike Abrams: For sure. So that's kind of where. It's funny, actually. I believe Lucy insisted on being in the opening and naming of Kat.

[50:53] Marco Venturini: Yeah.

[50:54] Mike Abrams: Because I think, you know, she was going to be allowed to not do that. She was like, no, no, no. I have to.

[50:57] Marco Venturini: Well, she's also a fan. So.

[51:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I mean, it's a big part of it too. I think it's a cool part of the story to me. If you have that ability to be in that, especially such an iconic opening number. I mean, it's incredible. And it's also one of the only numbers where truly everybody is present, you know?

[51:16] Marco Venturini: Yeah.

[51:16] Mike Abrams: So that also is really special. Can I ask you a question? I mean, you might not want to include it, but if you had to remove a number from the show.

[51:26] Marco Venturini: Oh, OK. So this is there's a lot of hot takes. And I think the easy answer is this has already been answered by Andrew Webber's people because on the cruise ship, they cut bus for Jones.

[51:38] Mike Abrams: Well, yes.

[51:40] Marco Venturini: So I know that that decision has been made. But that I I'm asking you asking me, you know, I think that there's been times where I love a lot of it. And there's a lot of it that like is really important parts. There's probably two or three answers that if I had to be like, there's been times where I'm like, I'm not sure I'm ready for this or I don't I don't have it. So Peaks and Potholes is so strange to me.

[52:04] Marco Venturini: That's so funny.

[52:05] Mike Abrams: And I know people love it. I don't I don't remember it being in the first version. And it's like I've seen it put in Act one. I've seen it put in Gus's song. And so that's kind of one where I'm like, I don't understand its value. It's much clearer to me as Gus's story. But it's such a strange song. But it is fun to watch. So it's like that's one where I'm like, I could get away with not seeing it. And then my hot take is I think Moments of Happiness is beautiful. I think at times I want I wish it would put in a different spot. I think I don't like it at the top of Act two.

[52:42] Marco Venturini: Interesting.

[52:44] Mike Abrams: So that's the one where you put it. So my like structurally from Cats, I think the I'm not sure where I'd put it. But I know that I don't love Little Memory at the end of Act one. These are all really hot takes, by the way. People are going to come after me. I'm aware I do. I kind of am with you on the ball when you all finish pointing out the crowd should be curtain.

[53:07] Marco Venturini: The problem is there is no curtain.

[53:09] Mike Abrams: That is the main issue.

[53:10] Marco Venturini: So cut the lights and then you all crawl off stage. Maybe. But that to me is such a moment. And then it's like it feels like the end. And then there is this other moment. And it's so critical to the storytelling that I get why you have it. But I'm also like half the people have no idea what the story is still at this point.

[53:28] Marco Venturini: That's true.

[53:30] Mike Abrams: So I'm like, that's that's one thing I would really want to do differently. And then moments of happiness. I'm not sure where you'd put it, but I feel like there's it's such, again, a dance heavy show that I would want. I would love you to come back in kind of like you do in the beginning of the show, where it's like opening number with like heavy dance. And so I would like to see that in some way. I don't know how you restructure that and then have the moments of happiness right before Gus in its way. But I'm missing something in between. And maybe it's just because American audiences are awful right now. And it's like you're coming back from intermission, and everyone's still got their phone out and everything. And it's like, it's such a powerful, slow, like deep song that I'm like, I need some energy to bring us back in.

[54:00] Marco Venturini: For sure. And the issue is that, again, if you actually listen to it and listen to the words, it's saying something like really beautiful, meaningful stuff. But no one's it like it's really hard to be in it at that point.

[54:37] Mike Abrams: Yeah, at that point, you're opening candy. And like, you're kind of like regrouping. And you're kind of trying to get back into the world. And you're like, hold on a minute. What are you talking about?

[54:43] Marco Venturini: Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I think you make very good points. I am like, when I found out that I wasn't going to be in Pigs of Pollicles, I was devastated, especially because once you get good at doing the makeup change and the costume change into Macavity, you are done by the time Skimbleshank starts. So you absolutely could be in it.

[55:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, OK. So that is my one because, again, I've never been in it. And I know that people who do it have told me, like, it's a bit of a slog. But it looks so fun. I think I would just have a blast doing it. It's just very silly.

[55:17] Marco Venturini: It's so strange.

[55:18] Mike Abrams: It's so strange.

[55:20] Marco Venturini: Yeah.

[55:20] Mike Abrams: So that's my answer to this. I'm sure people are going to disagree with me. I think that's the beauty of Cats, though, is that I still get messages from people where they're like, this isn't true that you said. I'm like, yeah, that's great. I'm sure that it's played that way at some point. There is absolutely no right answer. That's what I love about the show.

[55:34] Marco Venturini: Well, yes, it's the thing that I think makes it so successful, you know.

[55:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[55:40] Marco Venturini: You can't go wrong.

[55:40] Mike Abrams: Amazing. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, this has been so fun. How can people stay in touch with you on social media? And we'll post your last couple of stops here, too.

[55:50] Marco Venturini: Yes. I'm just on Instagram as marco.r.venturini. That's my main sort of Cats place where I post things.

[56:04] Mike Abrams: That's about it. And then, yeah, we have two months left of tour. And then that's it.

[56:07] Marco Venturini: Yeah.

[56:08] Mike Abrams: So a couple more. By the time this comes out, there'll be a couple more stops to go to. The idea that I'm inevitably careening towards my last Jellicle ball makes me unreasonably emotional.

[56:19] Marco Venturini: Yeah.

[56:21] Mike Abrams: Well, the beauty of Cats is that you can do it through a lot of your career.

[56:25] Marco Venturini: That's true.

[56:25] Mike Abrams: So you can always come back to it.

[56:27] Marco Venturini: You can be Gus at some point.

[56:28] Mike Abrams: Probably not as my cavity.

[56:29] Marco Venturini: Yeah, that's the thing.

[56:30] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah.

[56:31] Marco Venturini: But there's still time. So hopefully you'll have a couple more months, and then you still have a Jellicle life.

[56:38] Mike Abrams: But once you're a Jellicle, always a Jellicle.

[56:41] Marco Venturini: Absolutely.

[56:43] Mike Abrams: Well, this has been so fun. So thank you for coming on, especially mid-tour and mid-doing this.

[56:48] Marco Venturini: Thank you so much. I, yeah, it was really fun to do a deep dive.

[56:53] Mike Abrams: Amazing. Well, thank you. And thanks, everyone else, for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Diet, the podcast to break down the cat's stature. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of us' podcasts. Follow us on social media, TheWrongCatDiet, or check our website, thewrongcatdiet.com. Bye.