This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He is currently performing as Munkustrap on the International Tour, so I am very excited to have him. So welcome, Sam Brown, and thank you for joining me.

[0:27] Sam Brown: It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to chat with you. I know you started after I got to see the tour in Frankfurt, but I am familiar with the production, and I know you've got a couple of stints. So we'll talk about 2024 and then coming back in 2025. But before we do that, I always like to start with your cat's history from the beginning. So what was your introduction to the show?

[0:48] Sam Brown: Well, I feel like so many other people. The VHS was certainly my first introduction to the show. Like so many people in our company, actually, are quite often on stage or in rehearsals or anything like that. The blueprint we use is that incredible VHS and that incredible cast. So yeah, that was my first introduction. I remember my mum introducing me to that because she's a massive fan of theatre. At the time, I kind of wasn't really aware, I was so young, what a musical even was. It just felt like a film that was kind of laid in a different format, and I was transfixed by it, really. I always remember driving through the nearby forest and my mum always saying to me, oh, look out for Mr. Mistoffelees and all of this. I can remember it like it's yesterday, although it was so long ago. But that VHS certainly sticks in my memory as the first time witnessing the spectacle that is Cats, for sure.

[1:56] Mike Abrams: What age were you when you first saw that VHS?

[1:59] Sam Brown: Wow, I would have been very, very young. I would even go back as far as something like six years old. Yeah, really, really young. And being kind of partially petrified and in awe all at the same time, it was amazing.

[2:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I'm assuming a lot of emotions at that because it's a gamut of, especially now that you know what it's about, there's a lot to process as a six-year-old. But I love driving through the forest and being like, where's Check Out? Be on the lookout for that black cat, that magical black cat. That's really fun. I've not heard that as much as bringing it into life, besides, you know, I was skiing recently and I saw a cat on the mountain. I'm like, huh, which local cat's this? It's like a Skimbleshanks for the, you know, instead of a train, he's running the ski lifts.

[2:52] Sam Brown: Oh, for sure. For sure. I think kind of from that point on, every cat in the world that I ever saw was a comparison to a Skimbleshanks, as you say, or a Tugger or even a Munkustrap. So, yeah, it's a curse.

[3:11] Mike Abrams: That's the right word for it. We're completely open to it. When was the first time you saw it on stage?

[3:16] Sam Brown: First time I saw it on stage? I can't be certain. I don't think I did see it on stage. No, I didn't see it on stage before I kind of watched the show in our run in China. So, obviously, what they like to do, what the company like to do is give people a show watch, because not only does that allow kind of the covers to have a nice swing at the role that they've worked so hard to kind of learn, but also it certainly gives the entire cast a sense that, you know, this show is truly special. I mean, I think people often talk to me about the difference between being in Cats and watching Cats, and both are incredibly positive experiences. But to have to kind of have the fortunate position to be in the show and then see it kind of just simply as a spectator was, yeah, incredibly, incredibly fortunate experience. That was for sure.

[4:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's got to be interesting seeing it the first time on stage as a job, essentially, like you're watching it from a different perspective of you're appreciating the beauty of it and the musical theater, but you're also watching because you're going to have to do it here soon. Like you're learning it as well. So, I'm assuming it's a slightly different view. So, that was in 2024. And you get, I mean, walk me through, because this was not, you were, were you a cover? Were you an injury replacement? Like when you came in, I think the least notes I have are in November of 2024 on the China stops that were there, still part of the international tour. But what was that? Like, what was the introduction, the beginning of that like?

[5:00] Sam Brown: Well, yeah, the cast that rehearsed for that China tour were a kind of separate thing. And, you know, that felt like it was very much labeled as an international tour, but across China. And that cast rehearsed all together. And then, even at the end of that tour, that I would say about half and half of the cast that were in China to, you know, some of us left, and then some of us kind of came back to it. But even when I decided to leave after China, it was a case of, you know what, I'd like to come back for kind of a month or so in, I don't know, Monaco. And you might say, you might think I'm telling you fibs there. But yeah, no, that's kind of, I spoke it into existence. And yeah, that's what happened.

[5:52] Mike Abrams: Okay, so you were, you weren't, were you in the original, you weren't in the original group that rehearsed, though, in China, right?

[5:56] Sam Brown: I was, I was.

[5:57] Mike Abrams: You were, okay. Yeah. Okay, so the notes I have there are a little off, which is okay. So you are, so you are in, and you are the Munkustrap that is starting that production. And then you didn't continue, but you, you know, you wanted to pop back in. So you kind of manifested your way back a couple of stops.

[6:11] Sam Brown: Exactly. Got it. I got it. Okay. So when you landed that audition, and you realize you're going to be doing Cats, I mean, what is that, like, you know, there's the professional part of this, which is like, this is an incredible opportunity and job. But there's also that, like, bringing you back to your childhood, where it's such a meaningful VHS and moment, like, is there a, like, is it a, is it like the dream role, and you got it? Or is it kind of just more of the like, oh, this is a continuation of theater for you?

[6:39] Sam Brown: It's a great question, actually. I remember when the audition came through, kind of all of those memories, like you say, kind of came flooding back a little bit, because there are so many shows out there now, and you audition, brand new stuff you never heard of, or something that is, you know, one of these incredible kind of long standing shows like Cats, you kind of forget they exist until they pop into your inbox, unless they really are one of those shows that feels like are constantly on your mind. And although I loved Cats when I was young, it didn't feel like one that I was absolutely desperate to until kind of the audition came through. And then I thought, oh, this is really interesting. At which point, I had an audition with Chrissy, the wonderful Chrissy Cartwright, who I'm sure has been mentioned a million times, name dropped a million times, a legend. So yeah, a true legend. And I think instantly, in that audition, I knew just the level that she was operating at in terms of, you know, she would just say a word, and it would just instantly kind of spark your imagination. And I thought, even as much as doing Cats, it was kind of to work with her and the entire team and to be part of that legacy was superb. I mean, I must admit, I didn't know who I'd be in for. Now, because it was kind of a general call, because I think, I think it would either be Monk or Tugger that I was in for, but I didn't know for sure. I remember bringing one song that was certainly more Monk and the other, certainly more Tugger. And I was like, well, let's just see where they put me. And Monk was, from that point on, was always the avenue that they wanted me to go down. And thankfully, it all worked out. Yeah.

[8:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay. So walk me through then this rehearsal process. You obviously know a little bit about the show, but how much did you know about Munkustrap? Did you know the narration and the siblings and some of the stuff that's meant to be true? Or was a lot of this a learning process with Dane and obviously the amazing group that put together the show?

[8:46] Sam Brown: Well, yeah, in answer to your question, Chrissie did the most incredible job of telling this story. I mean, on that first day, we all sat down around Chrissie as if she was Munkustrap telling the story to all of us. So I feel like she was certainly the blueprint for storytelling when playing the narrator Munkustrap. But she was superb. She kind of laid it all out for us and obviously gave us all of our words and our relationships with each other. But what's kind of so amazing about Cats is that there is this freedom that comes with it, although the choreography is timeless, and it has been that way. And it's kind of almost identical in that respect to that kind of VHS production that I was talking about earlier on. There is so much freedom. And that's what Chrissie kind of allowed us. And it was something that was incredibly daunting, because it is this responsibility, like you say, yourself and so many other people love this show and have seen the most incredible performers perform this show. And so it was an incredible responsibility, but one that I think we all took on with open arms and embraced the challenge. And yeah, we absolutely love that process, for sure.

[10:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Can you share a little bit of what was your Munkustrap-like backstory that you were told, or kind of like the a-ha of, like, this is what I'm going to lean into when I go on stage here the first time as this character?

[10:25] Sam Brown: I seem to remember Chrissie putting me aside at the start of rehearsals and kind of saying, I see a Munkustrap in you that is slightly younger, because I am quite young for the usual Munkustrap casting, or so I'm told. And she kind of set it out as this young lion who is about to inherit the throne, the Jellicle throne, if you will. And then Old Deuteronomy is this kind of stoic leader that has ruled for so many years. And that kind of pressure to succeed the throne and that sense of responsibility that Munkustrap has is both what makes him interesting and what makes my show interesting every night. You know, thinking about the stakes of that and the way Chrissie laid that out was so wonderful. And I always remember it even now, years on, I'm sure.

[11:23] Mike Abrams: Yeah. My biggest Munk question is, when are you going to be done with Old Deuteronomy doing this? When is it finally going to be your turn? And I kind of like the idea of you saying, oh, you're auditioning almost. Is every show felt like... Not felt like, I mean, obviously doing this eight times a week, it's a job, but is it almost treated like, this is my audition to be in charge every single night, and I have to go bring that to the performance every single night?

[11:54] Sam Brown: Oh, for sure. I think throughout rehearsals, I was kind of developing this narrative in my head that actually, I seem to think that this is Old Deuteronomy's final year. And that, for me, just raises those stakes even more and makes, like I say, the show more exciting for me. So every decision he makes, he feels that scrutiny could be on him, or if he makes the wrong choice, then perhaps Old Deuteronomy will say, you know what, maybe you aren't the right person to take on the throne. But yeah, I think that pressure and that sense of... I suppose, yeah, like I've said, the responsibility of that. I seem to think that this is Old Deuteronomy's final year.

[12:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay. So if that's the case, does he pick himself one year? Were you waiting for him to just say, all right, thanks, Grizabella, I'm going now?

[12:46] Sam Brown: Well, I feel as though... I may be jumping the gun a little bit here. I feel as though the perfect Jellicle choice, if you like, is Old Deuteronomy.

[12:58] Mike Abrams: Okay. Well, so let's come back to that.

[13:01] Sam Brown: Please, let's pin that.

[13:02] Mike Abrams: I want to pin that, because I want to go into the details of that, because I have a lot of follow-up questions with this, because it's something I've explored, and I think is not an answer we hear enough, given the way that this story is structured. But it makes a ton of sense that you're telling me this, when you're saying that you're treating this as like, this is it. This is his last one. We are finally at this point where you can take over, which I love. I want to hear a little bit about doing the show in China and the audiences there, because I know that you put in... It was done in English, but you threw in some moments that had, you know, obviously some stuff that was more for that audience and for that culture in that region. Being that this is your first time doing Cats and doing it in a place where English isn't the primary language, what was that like? Was it a little bit more of an adjustment, or was it just because Cats is so universal and there's such a respect for it in China that it was pretty well embraced and easy?

[14:06] Sam Brown: Do you know what? It was kind of the perfect destination, because you've said about that kind of language barrier. I think I did worry a little bit, given that Munkustrap tells the story. If people come out of the theatre saying, well, what was the story? I feel a little bit like I haven't done my job quite right. But actually, their response to the show and speaking to them at stage door and things like that, I think that was a testament to just how incredible the physical storytelling of the show is. You know, I think even if you watched the show in complete silence, which you wouldn't want to do because the music is phenomenal, I think you would get a real sense of the story, the relationships between characters, and the way Dane and Chrissie set that up and set the show up is in such a way that I think someone would be able to grasp the story, even from a completely different country with, as you say, that language barrier. Obviously, we did have that moment at the top of Act Two, after a moment of happiness, where we sang the kind of memory reprise moonlight section in Mandarin, which always got the most incredibly wholesome response, because I think they felt seen in that moment in such a kind of incredible way, and they'd always respond to that really well. So I'm so glad that we did that. But I think, if anything, it was, like I say, just an incredible testament to the physical storytelling of this production and how they grasped it so brilliantly.

[15:49] Mike Abrams: I love hearing you say the idea of watching it silent, which is crazy for a musical, because it's like the music is such a key part and such of what it's known for. But having seen at least the production in Frankfurt, there is such this presence, and I was actually really hoping that when I went to Germany that it was going to be in German, because I want to see, I've listened to the vinyls of other countries, of other languages, but I wanted to see how much did I, as someone who knows the story and the plot better than most, obviously not the expert by all means, but 250 plus episodes of talking to people about this. That'll do it, yeah.

[16:33] Mike Abrams: I've picked up a lot about it, and I really was hoping to see how much did I follow as much. And I think you're totally right, which is you could just mute this, and you would get a full story still, just from the way the cats are moving and the dancing, even without the music, and who's interacting with who, and how it kind of progresses. And that's such kind of a fascinating study. I almost want to do it. I almost want to watch it silent one day and just be like, yeah, okay, maybe I noticed other things I wouldn't have noticed before.

[17:04] Sam Brown: Well, it's something certainly I think about, you know, pretty much every night, is that I'm very aware that some people in this audience don't speak English, because it is so wordy as well. It's not like even if their understanding of English is pretty good, that they're not going to get every single word. And of course, I might be being ignorant here, and they might all speak perfect English, which I'd be incredibly impressed about. But I think, yeah, to kind of set that challenge to yourself to say, what is the best way I can tell this story, that even if they don't understand the words, they know exactly what's going on, and whether my relationship with this cat is particularly negative, or a little bit more antagonistic, or anything, just anything that I can do to aid that storytelling. And I think I certainly see that on stage with the entire cast on stage with me as well, which obviously pushes me to do the same.

[18:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it is. You know, I've seen a lot of regional productions in the United States now, and as someone, again, who knows a ton about the show, it's really fun for me to talk to audience members sitting around me just like, without telling them why I know, because I don't say like, yeah, hey, come listen to this. It's just more like, what can I answer for you? And I kind of struggled until Dane joined me when I was sitting in Germany, because I was by myself.

[18:28] Sam Brown: Oh, wow.

[18:28] Mike Abrams: And I was like, everyone around me is speaking in German. And I didn't want to be like, I really like to always jump in and be like, what can I answer about this show for you? And I couldn't do that there. And so I think you're right, though, which is like, even if you do have a full, I mean, I speak English. I grew up speaking English. It's the only language I know. And even I walked out of the first time seeing Cats being like, what were some of those names?

[18:54] Sam Brown: Names, exactly.

[18:56] Mike Abrams: It is a very different world. It's poetry. It's poetry saying. So it is, even if you're used to speaking, it's not just normal conversation. But you got to do it, and you've done it in more than just, obviously, there's the tour you did in China, but now you're doing it, you said, in Monaco, and then you're going to a lot of the places where it's a different language and a lot of the countries you go to every stop you're going to. And I think it's a beauty of Cats is it's a little universal.

[19:24] Sam Brown: Exactly, exactly. And I think what Cats does so wonderfully is that it has that incredible rewatchability, because there are so many characters that you know, as interesting as a more prominent character like Rum Tum Tugger or Munkustrap, you've got a Cassandra that people might really want to that cat or even Carbucket, you know, all of these different characters that you can relate to in some way or other.

[19:55] Mike Abrams: Exactly. How has the differences been in the different countries you've gone to? Like, have you noticed an audience difference in different stops? Or has it been, again, I mean, obviously, it's very universally loved, or hated, I guess there's no middle. But like, the people are coming to you are either are probably choosing to come to you. But have you noticed a difference in the different locations?

[20:18] Sam Brown: I would say so. Yeah, it's kind of been fascinating in that way. Some audiences certainly more reserved. And I think just Monaco as an example, I think when we first come out, and there is that aggressive kind of intimidating nature to the opening, we're always told kind of, engage your eyes, really kind of stare them down. We're not supposed to be scary per se, but we are supposed to be kind of animals marking our territory. And even that after the opening, do I actually see with my own very eyes a man who's not heard of a Jellicle cat? I think all of the cast are aware that it's strange, but it's this kind of wonderful challenge. And it's also down to the incredible writing of the opening, all of these kind of rhetorical questions that we asked them, that, you know, are you ready? You know, are you ready to see something? Unlike anything else you've seen before, it's kind of not traditional, we come out into the audience, you know, it is incredibly immersive, especially for when the show came out, I think, you know, to have people in like cat suits, you know, with cat like ears and wigs and tails and all these things coming out into the audience, interacting, asking the audience questions and kind of breaking that fourth wall. I think that is something that shocks some people. And I think in Monaco, perhaps they were a little bit more reserved and kind of like, am I enjoying this? Or am I just kind of frightened for my life that these people kind of truly believe that they're cats. But I think as the show goes on, you really feel that they are on side and they understand. And although, like you say, it might not be their first language, I think it's this wonderful challenge we have every night of like, just trust us, you know, this show. And that's not so much a testament to us, although the entire cast is superb. I think just the show is so wonderful in that respect that it challenges the audience, then perhaps in ways that perhaps other shows don't.

[22:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's a little, I mean, it's got to be both. Like, it's a very well crafted show that does that. And then it has to be performed at a way to, you have to commit to a level of it too, to make me believe that you believe you're a cat. I'm not sure who actually does this moment, but really early on in the show, you do the, this person who doesn't know what a Jellicle cat is. You zoom in on a person usually. And I've never been in that area of the front row kind of area where you pick on that person. But I want to be because I'm like, I'm usually wearing a WTF as a Jellicle cat or like something Jellicle cat related if I'm at the show. Do you pinpoint someone who you think really isn't going to know? Like, is it intentional? Or is it just kind of like, we go over here and we do it every night?

[23:13] Sam Brown: Well, it is usually a seat. It is a usual, a specific seat that our resident chooses kind of just in terms of all of our eye lines, just because it looks incredibly effective when everyone's looking at the same place. And that kind of laser focus we have. But it is funny, some nights you have the kind of the most sweet little child sat there frightened for their life. This gigantic cat is looking at them saying, I cannot believe that you do not know what we are, which I have the great fortune to deliver that line. But it is funny, you know, sometimes you do get someone that is a little bit more reserved, or at least you can kind of see them saying to themselves, what is going on? You know, this, this, or someone that feels a little bit more scared or, or children that sometimes scream. But it is something that certainly keeps that moment alive and fresh. And actually seeing that person and connected with them is really exciting.

[24:22] Mike Abrams: I'm curious more of the reverse, which is like, I know some people that come fully dressed in cascades. Like, what if you end up with that person in the seat? Like, what if I want to almost handpick somebody for the seat one night for you and be like, this person definitely knows what a Jellicle Cat is. Like, they are here for a reason.

[24:34] Sam Brown: You know what, I would love that. I would love nothing more than to look out and see a fellow Jellicle Cat in the audience.

[24:46] Mike Abrams: Have you had any? I mean, I know some people in the US that do it.

[24:49] Sam Brown: Yeah, no, we certainly have. Not in that specific seat, which I am very much looking forward to now. It's bound to happen in the next venue now that you've said it. But no, there are people in the audience. So at the top of Act Two, as I'm sure you know, we have this kind of playtime section where we kind of walk through the audience and interact with people. And if there's someone dressed like us, you know, we kind of, we'll go straight up to them and be friendly with them in that way. And that's not, you know, saying that everyone needs to come in full cat. But it is lovely to see, you know, the kind of love for the show and the effort that people go to. And the makeup and the wig. Incredible.

[25:30] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. Yeah. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. I want to hear a little bit before we go to some rapid fire and then we go back to this Old Deuteronomy question. But I want to hear a little bit about what are some of the funny, memorable moments from the time you've done Cats? Like what are the things you're just never going to forget that either things that were errors, mistakes, fun, you know, just the things that are burned into your brain?

[26:00] Sam Brown: Gosh, I have to take one from rehearsal. So working with Chrissy, there's that iconic position that Munkustrap hits after his prowl into the center of the stage for his opening line, Are you blind when you're born? And I watched Chrissy Cartwright do it. She kind of demonstrated it for me, you know, and I kind of remember thinking to myself, I will never do it as good as that. That was incredible. It was just like watching a tiger in some long grass ready to pounce on a gazelle. It was unbelievable. I think that was certainly one that sticks out to me. Actually, more recently, in that same moment we were talking about, I said, What's a Jellicle Cat? And there was a little child that said, It's a pussy cat, which was a great response. I mean, you know, and not far off. So that was a lovely moment. Any other moments? I think, oh, I remember our opening night in China. So this is the first time that we had kind of everything together. You know, we all of the wigs were on, the tails are on, the makeup, everything forecast, you know, the orchestra was booming across the auditorium. And it was just the start of the iconic theme of the ball in the Copeland section, which is for people that don't know, is the moment where we all look a little bit like we're pointing to the sky and kind of everything's in unison, which is kind of not something that happens a lot in the show. But when it does happen, it feels incredibly powerful. And I remember kind of that feeling. I think a lot of people would agree that that was the moment you truly feel you are in Cats. Yeah, because before, you know, you can just be a human in rehearsals with a pair of knee pads on pretending to be in Cats. But actually, that moment when that orchestra kicked in and kind of that electric guitar is ringing in your ears. I mean, that was just incredible. Yeah.

[28:28] Mike Abrams: Oh, I'm sure as someone who's not done it, I feel like the moment that would have to hit hardest is finishing the ball, just like the entire ball is such iconic music. But also, I mean, like as a dancer, it's kind of peak dance. It's the extremely difficult, super long, well-known choreography with sections. And like you said, that moment, but there's so many others within the ball. I feel like that has to be the moment where you're like, oh, not only do I get Cats, but I'm also like, I'm in Cats. It's like that is physically has to be one of the most demanding sections of musical theatre of anything I've ever seen.

[28:28] Sam Brown: Oh, for sure. And the kind of great privilege that I get every night is that Munkustrap is an overseer. You know, he is the kind of person that is always looking. And I kind of take that job seriously in the context of the show, but also just to look at the people around me doing the most incredible things with their body. It's just mind blowing. So certainly at the end of the ball, there's always this moment I find with, and this happens kind of very rarely, if at all, in any other number, the ball finishes and there's this kind of just dead air before the applause of just, I think, I hope what it is, is the audience just going, wow. And then they applaud, you know, there is that kind of silence just before the kind of calm before the storm that is kind of absolutely magic in that way.

[29:13] Mike Abrams: Completely. You know, I can tell you why I've thought a lot about this recently, actually. I think part of it is, is that I know the first time I saw it, I expected that to end Act One. I didn't expect, you know, like you so many of them things that happened are the more newer shows I've seen end on that type of number. For sure. And not adding the little memory and this other thing. Now, from the storytelling perspective, that part is so important.

[30:00] Sam Brown: Absolutely.

[30:01] Mike Abrams: But from a like structural musical theater, I've always, I'm always kind of like finished being like, that should just curtain go down. And then you get the roar. And then also for you all, you get to like catch your breath, you know, like you get a little bit of a moment there. But it is one of those weird decisions to me that I've, I've actually thought a lot about recently of like, I kind of wish that they would do that. Someone would do it, but you'd have to figure out how to retell Grizabella's story in a different way. Because that, that moment is so important to the show from a storytelling perspective.

[30:16] Sam Brown: Oh, absolutely. I think, yeah, I mean, that certainly plays into the beauty of Kat's subverting expectation, you know, and going against the expectation of a big button on the end of a, at the end of a number. And you're absolutely right. I actually seem to remember in rehearsals thinking, right, that's the end of act one, fantastic. And then I said, we've completed act one, how amazing. And then Chrissy said, and then we get a final of the act, a final entrance from Grizabella. And at first I thought, oh, wouldn't it be stronger to end with that massive dance number. But actually I think that is the audience at their most focused, right? You know, they are absolutely glued to the stage at that point and kind of hopefully transfixed as, you know, seeing what's just happened on stage and the kind of incredible nature of that choreography. And like you say, all the sections and then that button happens. And I think you're absolutely right. That silence is, oh, the lights haven't gone down. Okay. And then they kind of watch so intently and the person that comes out, the cat that comes out is Grizabella. And then they realize, okay, right. Let's, let's take some, some notice of this and let's really see this act through to the very end. And I think that's probably why they do that as, you know, as well as it being incredibly important to the story, like you said. The attention part is fascinating. I hadn't thought about it from that angle, which is like, you're right. That is the most engaged moment you'll have to then put my eyes or my, you know, my, my whole thought somewhere else quickly. That's important.

[31:53] Mike Abrams: I think the other part though, that confused me the first time I saw it is I knew memory. I didn't know any other song in the show. I was a cat's person before. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember being like, that was it. Like, isn't there more to this song? You know, like, like, and then it was until they, you know, it comes back in act two and I was like, oh, here's the full song. But I've had people that have left at intermission, you know, the non cats people. And they're like, oh yeah, I mean, I heard memory and I left. I'm like, no, you didn't. You heard little memory. And so I, it is, I mean, again, it's a different, um, a choice, but I, the attention part is fascinating because I hadn't thought as much about that, which is you are right. I am the most engaged in the entire show at that moment. I think, um, just on the side of memory as well, it's not even the words of memory. It's that kind of little arpeggio that it does before like that kind of moment before. And you literally see people sit up in their seats. It's kind of this incredible thing of like, ah, they know this one, but also, you know, it's something that Lucy May Barker does with such, um, such ferocity. Absolutely.

[33:04] Sam Brown: Every single night just really just gives her full self to it, which we're all wowed by. And obviously the audience are.

[33:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I was grateful to be able to see her, her performance and actually talked to her a little bit before the show too, um, which was super fun. Um, okay, let's do some cat trap and fire because we gotta get back to the conversation. So if you could go on one night, uh, perform any cat, male, female, doesn't matter if you're, you know, vocal range, dance number, who would you want to perform as?

[33:34] Sam Brown: I'd love to have a go at Rum Tum Tugger, the opposite of Monk. Exactly. I'd like to do the antithesis.

[33:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay. Who are your favorite and least favorite cats from a personality standpoint? So I'm asking you, Sam, like who would you enjoy hanging out with and who would,

[33:48] Sam Brown: Oh, okay. As, as me, I think I'd love to sit down and have a cup of tea with Skimbleshanks. Yeah. I think he'd be like, you know, your, your favorite, um, uncle who would just sit with you and watch a nice cozy Sunday film with, I think that would be, and then my least favorite. Ooh, everyone's got that family member that bugs them. Like who's, who's that? Who's that member?

[34:12] Sam Brown: I'm going to Cassandra sticking out to me. She just seems a pretty common answer. Yeah. She seems a mystery to me. She's too complex for me, but I'm going to go with Cassandra.

[34:23] Mike Abrams: Okay. Favorite song in the show.

[34:30] Sam Brown: Oh, favorite song in the show. I love Mistoffelees. I love that. Yeah. Even, even the, the, the underscore during the solo, it's just unbelievable. Incredible music. Yeah.

[34:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Okay. I always ask one fun one. So I'm asking a Munkustrap question. So imagine Old Deuteronomy leaves and you take over, who are you grooming as your next, like for, to take over for you eventually, even though you're early on?

[34:49] Sam Brown: I think Victoria, Victoria. Okay. I think there's a lot of reference to, uh, royalty and there, there is even references to Victoria, Victoria's accession and the days when Victoria reigned. There are a couple of quotes. I think there's this kind of regal quality to Victoria. And the fact that although Deuteronomy allows Victoria to go in and do the white cat touch, which is obviously the moment where Grizabella is chosen to go to the heavy side layer. I think there is something incredibly important that Victoria is the cat to do that. So I probably, although she is very young, I think in terms of the age range between Old Deuteronomy and I, and I to Victoria, they're probably about the same.

[35:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is down the road. You've got your time.

[35:40] Sam Brown: Exactly. I have a long reign.

[35:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. So my million dollar question, and it sounds like we're going a different route here. I like, but, um, I have argued, I don't think Grizabella should be the right joke of choice. So I agree who you Sam are voting for and why, and it sounds like you're picking Old Deuteronomy.

[35:57] Sam Brown: Yes. A bit of a spoiler earlier. I am going with Old Deuteronomy. That is my choice. Give me the rationale. Give me the, I mean, what's the, is that Munkustrap, um, kind of like, you know, the reason is because of your time as Munkustrap, or is this something you've like, how have you thought through why he should be picked?

[36:17] Sam Brown: I think it is a kind of unique perspective from playing Munkustrap just because that part of the story kind of has to be so fleshed out in your head in terms of feeling like the stakes are incredibly high. Like I said before, I think, I think in previous years, Old Deuteronomy doesn't get a song, you know, I think there are throughout the show, we're told that there are these kind of almost Oscar style. And the next nominee is, you know, yeah. And we have a Skimbleshanks one. That's a very clear. What about this cat? And we have a Gus one. That's a very clear. What about this cat? And then there are interruptions, if you like, which at one of the interruptions is Tugger. He kind of comes out, bursts onto the scene. And then you've got Mungojerr and Rumpleteazer as well. I think some people see Old Deuteronomy as an interruption, kind of, it cuts through the end of Mungojerr and Rumpleteazer. And people seem to think, oh, he's arrived. And we didn't know it. I think this was very much planned. I think we knew the moment he was going to arrive. And then when they say, I believe it is Old Deuteronomy, the twins, Tantamile and Korokopat, it feels so comfortable that it was almost planned that, you know, we're going to pay homage to our leader in this way. Other than that, I would say that everything points to Old Deuteronomy being kind of going to the Heaviside Lair, because I think usually he'd be amongst the tribe from the beginning. But Munkustrap is very much the leader until he arrives. You know, you have that Grizabella comes in and Munkustrap, although perhaps unqualified, steps forward and says, no, you know, you can't come near any of us. And she tells her to leave, basically, which would usually be Old Deuteronomy's job. So you have that kind of first quarter of the show almost that is completely without Old Deuteronomy. And I think any other year, he would be there from the beginning. It's almost like a test. Okay, let's see how Munkustrap does before I arrive. And then when I arrive, you know, I can take charge for one final time.

[38:33] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So do you, I mean, I love a lot of this. I think the Oscar part is exactly how I've thought about the show, because I've thought about it as American Idol or X Factor.

[38:44] Sam Brown: Exactly. Yeah. Similar, which is, here's the people auditioning for it. And then here are the like little stories and packages and interruptions. I like to call them interruptions. Like here's the other filler to make the hour go through. But, you know, the way you just said that, which is like that Old Deuteronomy is testing Munkustrap. Does that mean that, like, do you almost feel like you've, not you as a performer, but like that because he doesn't pick you or himself and he picks Grizabella, that it's almost that you've failed? Like, how does that, like, how do you mentally go through that if that's the way you're playing that?

[39:15] Sam Brown: Well, it's interesting, isn't it? I very much see it as Old Deuteronomy is laying out a series of lessons for me. So, for instance, Gus is a lesson of kind of don't judge a book by its cover. You know, there's this older cat, but actually he can still sing and dance just like the rest of us and give us this incredible number. And then you've got Gumby Cat, which is this feeling of warmth and being kind to everyone. You know, there's all of these different lessons. And I think that even though Old Deuteronomy hasn't gone to the Heaviside Layer, I think he steps down from the throne because his final lesson and his final choice and his final lesson to Munkustrap is one of acceptance. The ultimate kind of lesson to learn is that, you know, to be accepting of everyone. And he kind of says, okay, Grizabella is who I choose, but now it's your turn. Now that I've given you all of these lessons, it's your turn. And you're kind of ready with, you know, the guidance I've given you.

[40:31] Mike Abrams: Okay. Okay. That makes sense. So, fast forward a year, you're now in charge. Who's going next year under your reign?

[40:47] Sam Brown: That's a fantastic question. Under my reign, I'm going to send, I'm going to send Macavity. Macavity. Okay. Why? Because you have this wonderful redemption arc from Grizabella. She's obviously done something, you know, to the outcast in such a way, because this is a tribe. They are so kind of, you know, inclusive and bring everyone together. And it's a very tribal feeling. She's obviously done something horrendous. I very much see the three brothers of Munkustrap, Tugger, and Macavity very much like Zeus, Poseidon, and Hades. Another kind of little holy trinity there. And I think there is redemption to be had for him in Cats 2, if you like.

[41:38] Mike Abrams: Yep. Okay. Okay. I like it. Yeah, I mean, I think there's, that's sticking with the redemption. I like the idea. I mean, you'd have a whole year to see what happens to you.

[41:49] Sam Brown: Exactly.

[41:50] Mike Abrams: You'd have to gauge the whole time. But I like the, the Old Deuteronomy pick is, to me, it's not, it doesn't have enough votes. I mean, it's pretty much a Gus Grizabella race in this. But I've always wondered, like, at some point, he can't be in charge anymore.

[42:09] Sam Brown: Exactly.

[42:10] Mike Abrams: He has to be done. And as you hear the story, he tells, it's like, especially as, you know, the Munkustrap lends, like, there is time to give up, not give up, give over the reins to a new leader. And he grasped for a while. So I feel like he deserves more votes than he's gotten so far.

[42:28] Sam Brown: I completely agree. I certainly see, I mean, another kind of family link. I see Grizabella as the mother, Old Deuteronomy as the father, and me as the son. So when he chooses Grizabella, it's kind of this moment of, you know, they've kind of squashed all of their trials and tribulations they've had and whatever she's done to be outcast in this way. And it is a lesson of acceptance, but also forgiveness, I think.

[43:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I love that. I think it's, I mean, yeah, it's so fascinating. It's so interesting, depending on the family tree and how you think about it. But any non-Grizabella vote for this podcast is a win for me. So we take it and we run with it. But it's great. Have you ever talked to Lucy and Michael and just be like, you should just switch spots today, just when you go up there.

[43:26] Sam Brown: You just see what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get Michael in the harness and they can fly away. And then let's have, you know, Michael sing Memory and Lucy sing A Dressing of Cats, which would be, I'm sure, an incredible switch up. I'd certainly listen to those renditions for sure.

[43:44] Mike Abrams: I would too. So it'd be fun one day to just flip spots right there for them. They're both already up there.

[43:52] Sam Brown: Yeah, exactly. I've always said to Jack, who's Jack Danson, who's the Tugger on tour with us right now, that one night we should just switch. It'd be so much fun. He said, oh, I'd love to have a go at Monk. And I said, I'd love to have a go at Tugger. And not that we'd ever do it, but it would be so much fun just to switch brothers.

[44:15] Mike Abrams: I do think it's probably a show that, I mean, the Swings do so many of them that because a lot of the dance is similar, you probably could do it a lot easier than some other shows where it'd be really hard to do a different character.

[44:22] Sam Brown: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Talking on the Swings, I've always said that Swings on Cats are the most remarkable Swings in our industry because you do absolutely, like you say, have those heavy, heavy dance tracks. You're talking kind of virtuoso ballet style tracks. And then you have these vocal tracks that the same people cover. Some of the hardest singing in musical theater. So yeah, they are incredible. Swings deserve all the praise in the world and all the credit that they should. I mean, they should be given so much. I've talked to people that have done Bon Ballerina and Demeter matinee evening flip, and I'm like, I can't fathom that. To do the other half of the track you just did, especially in the Macavity song, where you're doing, again, it's similar, but you're doing the other side or you're doing the other lyrics. That has to be... mentally, my brain can't comprehend doing that, but it's a skill.

[45:32] Sam Brown: I've thought about, because on the VHS, the version of Peaks and the Policles they do is very slightly different to ours in that Munkustrap leads the entire number. But what's so wonderful about our version is that Gus and I do a duet. And I've often thought, if Gus had a slip on the line, would I be able to do the entire number? And the answer right now would probably be no. Because it is, it's absolutely that. It feels like you're kind of doing a mirrored version of your show, which is almost harder than doing something that's totally separate from it.

[46:08] Mike Abrams: Completely, completely. This has been so fun. I've loved hearing your thoughts on this. And I mean, obviously, as a Munkustrap, I feel like you have a different view on the show, too, as well. Because like you said, you're the overseer of so much. So it's fun to hear the different parts of the show you think about and the family tree and all that stuff. So I really appreciate you coming on. How can people stay in touch with you on social media? And I'll obviously tag the tour, since you're still going on that as well.

[46:36] Sam Brown: Oh, absolutely. On Instagram, I am Sam underscore Brown underscore. And yeah, that's how people can kind of stay in touch with me. But other than that, it's been an absolute pleasure talking with you.

[46:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so fun having you on. So thank you for coming and sharing.

[46:52] Sam Brown: Thank you so much.

[46:53] Mike Abrams: Awesome. And thanks, everyone, for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Cats Ashby. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or listen to podcasts, follow us on social media at TheWrongCatDied or check out our website, TheWrongCatDied.com.