This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. She is currently performing as Victoria in the South Africa production, and I'm excited to hear because this is the first person I've had from that production. So welcome, Cassiel Eatock-Winnik, and thank you for joining me.

[0:32] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. This is so, so cool.

[0:36] Mike Abrams: I'm excited. I've been wanting to hear from your production because I remember when they announced it, I was very excited, and I reached out to a lot of you, and I was like, look, this is during the rehearsal process. I'm here to help with whatever y'all need, and then this is the beginning of a long tour through a lot of the country. So we'll talk about the first couple stops, which is where we are right now. But before we do that, I always like to start with your history of Cats and how you ended up here at this moment as Victoria. So when was the first time you saw the show? What was your history with the show?

[1:06] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So my mother is also in musicals. She was actually on Broadway. She performed in Make Me Say Louie at the Gershwin Theatre in, I think, the 80s. She was dance captain on that, and so she was like theater. I grew up in her dance studio, and I remember we had a Cats poster in the kitchen in our house, and it was exactly like on my t-shirt, just Cats with the yellow eyes. And we had a lot of theater posters, Les Miserables. We had a lot of them, but somehow that poster was just so cool. I was like, something about this picture is just really cool, whatever. Then I watched the VHS movie Cats, and the only cat I remember was the white cat. No other cat I remembered. And I never watched the show again, and then they were having auditions here in South Africa, and I was like, you know what?

I'm just going to go. I'm a performer. We have to audition to keep the craft going, to keep training. I don't really remember what the show was about, but I remember the white cat, and that's like a dream role of mine. I don't even know why. Just that's what I remember. And I auditioned, and I got the part, and I was like, oh my god, this is amazing. And now I'm on the white cat.

[2:31] Mike Abrams: Okay, so there's a huge gap. So, you never saw it in New York, even though you were there during the heyday of it with your mom performing?

[2:40] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So, my mom performed on Broadway in the 80s, had me in 99. Then I grew up in South Africa, so she opened her own dance school here, and I trained with a lot of musical theater around me, but I just saw it on the VHS. I never saw it live my whole life.

[3:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, okay. It probably came through town at least once or twice, because there were South African productions for a couple spots in the history, but I don't know, timing-wise, I couldn't tell you when.

[3:12] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Absolutely. Thank you for saying that, because in 2001 to 2004, there was a South African production of Cats, and I remember somehow having the program, but I don't remember seeing the show. So, maybe I did see it, but I really don't remember watching it, but I remember having the program. I think I was four or three or four, and I remember seeing that program and being like, this is so insane and so cool.

[3:38] Mike Abrams: That's awesome. Okay, so then you watched the VHS. How old were you when you watched that VHS the first time?

[3:43] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: The first time I remember watching it, I think I was six or seven.

[3:47] Mike Abrams: Okay, and that makes sense, and you grew up as an actor and a performer.

[3:52] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, theater kid.

[3:53] Mike Abrams: The White Cat does stand out, yeah. The White Cat does stand out in that show a lot, especially in the VHS, where it's a dance-heavy show, but there are some solo moments, or at least some of the lifts and all the stuff there with Victoria.

[4:05] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, and I was also a little ballerina, and my mom was always like, ballet training is the best foundation. And so, it was just like, I don't know, that actress in that VHS tape just had a quality that was so mystical and ethereal, but not like a ballerina ballerina. It was this crazy, both classical ballerina, but also this muscular energy that was really insane, which I loved.

[4:39] Mike Abrams: Okay, so fast forward to you get cast, and you don't really know what this is about, right? You remember there's a core memory of childhood and of dancing, but walk me through the first time they told you the story. What was your reaction, especially to your character's story, which has quite the arc to it?

[5:01] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So Chrissy Cartwright, she was actually, I think she was mounting a musical somewhere else. She was doing a US national tour, and so she wasn't available to be in South Africa on her first day, but she zoomed in. And so, we were all there with our notebooks and our pens, and we were like, oh my God, just the God of Cats is coming to tell us about this story. And I had just flown back from New York, because I was in New York for the summer, and I was training with Sheila Gray. She's a really great acting coach in Manhattan, and she's method and Strasburg and very intense. And so, I just finished her intensive, and so I was very much in the acting brain. And I was writing down every single thing that Chrissy Cartwright was saying, and I was crying.

I was brought to tears by the way she spoke about this untouchable creature that was Grizabella, that was a symbol of society rejecting someone that had so much, but just couldn't have the opportunity. And I substituted some personal things, and I was just broken by the time she'd finished her monologue about the story. I was broken. And the fact that Victoria reaches out and is the first cat of the tribe to connect, it was just so loaded in all my substitutions that I was finished. I was bawling. Everyone's like, are you okay? This story is so beautiful.

[6:40] Mike Abrams: I mean, how much of that, though, like the story is so wild. It's so different. And it's like, you watch, at six, you're not picking up any of it. I watched it in my 20s and didn't pick up for the first time, didn't pick up any of it. But there's a moment of like, oh, wow, this is much deeper. But then there's also the process for you all of like, how do you then, you're learning it to then go do it. So, when you kind of got into that now, like, okay, now you've got a little bit of this, you have to go learn all the dance and all the other stuff. That's like, those minor details that you got to figure out to be able to do the show eight times a week or however many times you're doing it. But there is a little bit of the arc of the storytelling, and especially with your characters, you have a pivotal moment multiple times throughout the show. So, how deep did you go into trying to figure out what Chrissy told you plus what you tried to add?

[7:29] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, it was a beautiful process because it was a lot of technique at first. I mean, this is a dance heavy show, and it's a vocally heavy show. I mean, people just think, oh, no, it's just like a lot of dance. The vocals are insane, super high soprano. Angeloid Webber's work is like, iconic. So, technically, it's challenging. And in that, the technique was almost like a framework to like, kind of free up the creativity, because we also did the animal work of the cat a lot too. So, it was in the framework of knowing, okay, I studied a cat. When a cat is hungry, what does it do? When a cat is scared, what does it do? Biologically, what are the mechanics of what a cat does? And then by studying that and trying it on my own body, just in those basic needs, I found her character, I found how she moved in between those needs, and then added in my own creative take on that almost.

But I had to try it out. I had to juggle choices and, oh, that felt really contrived, or that didn't work, or that I would definitely move towards someone I hated or someone I loved as a cat in this way. But it took a lot of experimentation, if that made any sense.

[9:05] Mike Abrams: No, completely. How much has that evolved as you've been doing it more? Like, are there certain relationships that early on you're like, this is for sure a mother-daughter or best friend or lover or whatever, and now it's like, I'm not sure I buy that one anymore, and you're adjusting on the fly?

[9:20] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Absolutely. So actually, the funniest one was Bustopher Jones and Gus the Theater Cat. My connection to those characters in the beginning was like, what the hell am I doing? I don't know how these kittens are connected to Bustopher Jones. And also the way it's written is super pompous and elevated, and I was like, this is all flying over my head. So I really had to dig deep, and I was like, what is this? And through actually performing it, I was like, wow, this is a comment on society. This is a comment on gluttony and this fat cat and politics and much higher, much higher themes. And I was like, in these newborns' eyes of these kittens, they can be swayed in different ways. They can be seen as, oh, this is so cool.

I want to eat all these shrimps and run around and be like this cat. Or, oh, this is kind of disgusting. And this is kind of a critical eye. So it's fun to play. Some shows I'm like, wow, this cat is so cool and fat. And some shows I'm like, oh, this cat is—should we be listening to this cat? Is he really a cat that we should be listening to? So it's kind of interesting to flip-flop between those and find the truth in both. And also Gus the theater cat is a beautiful, beautiful character, because he's just that old person in your life that has lived and has seen how the world has changed. And just in his innocence of like, I used to do things this way, but things have changed, and now I have to change. It's just really beautiful.

[11:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. The Bustopher Jones ones is very interesting, because I've always wondered, as someone who doesn't perform or act or anything, this is not my area of expertise or my world at all. But there has to be some element of your daily life brought into some of these shows, no matter how much you try to remove and separate the like, when you get on stage immediately in that moment, maybe unless you're playing an actual person, where it's a little bit easier to separate that. But do you feel like maybe your daily Bustopher Jones, either love or hate is a little bit of like how your morning went or what you read on the news that day? Or like, how much of that is actually implied into that particular performance?

[11:46] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Absolutely. A huge amount. For me, I love that when I'm actually reminded, Oh my God, that was that guy in the grocery store that I was like, that was that one professor or that was the one person in power that, you know, I didn't really trust, but had so much influence over me at a certain point in my life. So I love it when I'm reminded of that. And my impulses are fed from that. I think that's really cool. Because otherwise, it's like you're trying to create from not an honest place. Like I love to take from my own personal experience. It feels honest and real. And yeah.

[12:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah, for sure. With your cast, like you obviously do a lot of this building in the beginning, like in the rehearsal process and through and then you pick things up along the way as you go. How often do you all talk about this? Like how often do you discuss those moments? And it's not like the tour where you're changing every, you know, there are tours in the US that change every week or everything like you've, you've had pretty good sit downs at places and you're there for long enough time that I think you can build a little bit more of a life, but you're also still very intimately close to each other a lot. So what do those conversations look like?

[13:02] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I thought the time period was a little bit quick, to be honest, in terms of the rehearsal into the performance. I wish that there was a little bit more time to have these conversations and build a backstory of all of us together. It felt like get the technique, make the choices and let's go six weeks and be on the stage. And we had like a lot of the show to learn before we could start creating together.

[13:33] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So we didn't actually have many conversations with each other, like kind of bouncing off and improv, and we did cat school. Obviously, we have to do cat. Yeah, where we like become and improvise a few relationships and status, but it felt like a little bit general. I wish we had a bit more time to really go into it. But I know each individual definitely has done that work because you can feel it on the stage that they've, yeah, I get to do it.

[14:09] Mike Abrams: Okay, that is very interesting to me because I am very aware that I look at this from just that lens. Yeah, and it's like, no, I haven't had to learn the 13 minutes of straight dance in the Jellicle Ball that like is physically more demanding, it has to be memorized. Like, yeah, I'm only thinking about your Bustopher Jones, Victoria duo here and everything else, but it is so real though. And it always fascinates me because there are so many choices that can be made. Like you said, you could treat Bustopher Jones either way, and it's probably not gonna make a material difference, but there are options depending on stuff. And there's things like I've posted a couple different cats family trees from different regional productions, and they're all different and none of it actually changes the show.

But I love that you all have the choice, and it fascinates me how deep you all actually discuss it or is like your Bombalurina and you're whoever just having their own thoughts and not telling you that they actually are playing your relationship this way.

[15:06] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: A lot of that starting to happen, like even with Jennyanydots, who I think the general consensus is that she is Victoria's mother or caregiver or some sort of maternal cat. It's so interesting to play that relationship with the other kittens, especially when Macavity comes, when the word Macavity is spoken, and they're like taunting the kittens or they're protecting the kittens like a snake. Cats are actually so afraid of snakes. It's so interesting to like really feel that in the body.

[15:47] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So I actually like the Grizabella is Victoria's mom theory better. Wow, because I think there's like, I mean again, the Jennyanydots is very commonly spoken because there really is only, there's like three generations, and so there's only a couple ways you can play the parents and stuff, and you kind of mix and match with that. But with a lot of productions, Victoria's the first one to go touch because of Ella, sometimes that's Syllabub or Jemima or whoever. But whoever's the first to touch, I also a lot of times thinks that's maybe mom, like that's the whole arc of that. And so you're all are not playing it that way, it sounds like.

[16:23] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So we have not, so we've actually been free to kind of read all of this. Some nights I feel like I've just been born, like I've actually just been rebirthed, and I'm kind of new to this whole tribe, and I'm learning the rules and learning every, I just have a new kind of perspective on the world. So I don't see Grizabella as this horrific, like her reputation. I don't know her reputation because I've got new eyes. So that is why I touch her because I'm so innocent and I've just been rebirthed. I've just been given a new life. So sometimes I play it like that. I love the angle of Victoria said this along a guy, and I don't know what cat one number episode long time ago that they were actually last year's choice.

[17:11] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[17:13] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: And I like the idea of last year's choice being the one to welcome this year's choice or like some circular motion of this. You only get the one view of this, so there's not who was actually last year's choice or who's next year's choice or any of that, right? But I do love that. So you play that of the like, okay, I don't know any of this stuff. I don't know who's mom, who's dad, or ever. I'm just here for the first time.

[17:36] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, completely like fresh eyes. And I just see her soul, like I'm the soul seer.

[17:43] Mike Abrams: We're gonna take a quick break and then be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[17:47] Mike Abrams: Flipping this a little bit, one of the more interesting moments that I didn't pick up on the first time I watched it on stage, but I've heard Chrissy has talked about a lot, is what your lifts actually mean. Yes, what was that like hearing that for the first time? Like did you know that was part of this or is that an eye-opening experience to you as it was to me?

[18:06] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I didn't know that there was that whole, because the whole like on heat situation that cats, she's on, and she's, you know, this adolescent kitten that's kind of coming into herself during the ball, and it's like the sexual awakening. And if you go into the choreography, it's kind of built like that. Like it starts out like she's a little ballerina doing like punting us with her friend Jemima, and then the more like the Tugger boys go on and like the more it gets more wild to prove themselves to Old Deuteronomy. And it culminates in this like climax. But yeah, we were directed like by a lot of people, Old Deuteronomy, and it culminates in this like climax, but yeah, I had no idea. And they were like, it needs to build the sensuals and then needs to build to this climax of the lift, and I was like, oh my goodness, I didn't know it was the sexual. I really didn't.

[19:06] Mike Abrams: Me neither when I first saw the show, and then I've heard that from like Chrissy telling Victoria is very bluntly like this is what that moment means. And it's hilarious to me because it's like six-year-old you is watching the VHS having no idea that that's what you're watching.

[19:23] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I know, and it somehow it didn't, it doesn't come across as, it just comes across as very pure, like just innocent and pure, which I think is also like a difficult kind of line to play because you're not a ballerina. So you can't really play, she can play the voluptuous sex bomb, but you have to find it in a very innocent way.

[19:50] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Who does your lift?

[19:51] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, Admetus, his name. He is incredible, Stefan van der Volt.

[19:57] Mike Abrams: Okay, do you play Admetus as like a boyfriend of sorts then because of that?

[20:01] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, it changes every night actually, okay, because some nights I play it like I've, you know, he's caught my eye throughout the ball or throughout the evening to culmination, and some nights I play it like this is all very overwhelming, this in this proving yourself to Old Deuteronomy, this fighting for your spot in this tribe because that is kind of what the ball is. Everyone's kind of auditioning, and there's a competitiveness. And through that overwhelm, he is in front of me, and he like kind of holds me in this vulnerable, stressed-out moment.

[20:49] Mike Abrams: So yeah, I played in those two different ways.

[20:55] Mike Abrams: Okay, tell me more about this competition in the ball. I've always just thought it was an orgy.

[20:59] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Oh no, like tell me, like is there, what, what, explain that?

[21:06] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Oh yeah, I know it's a massive competition, like a dance competition. Like who can outdo this one? There's like this cattiness, this violent cattiness that comes out in the ball to prove who's best to the judge, who is Old Deuteronomy, to give them a new life. So they're kind of dancing for their lives.

[21:29] Mike Abrams: That's so interesting. I've never really thought about it that way. I've always thought about this story arc as each one is singing their song to prove their worth or just interrupt, you know, like, but that generally the songs are the, this is why you should pick me. The ball is to me like the ritual of this is our annual ritual. I've always joked it's an orgy, but it's like this is that moment. It comes with your lift in the middle of it at some point. There's all this kind of like leading up to it, and then it goes back into a little bit more of here's why we should, it's like almost half, yeah, for my sports people, like that's how I view it. It's like the halftime show, and then there's more people that go on, but at the competition, so this is essentially saying all the dancers, this is your chance to potentially show that you're the choice.

Absolutely. So all like this is the time to win over because Old Deuteronomy kind of is like God, and this is like fighting for your spot, fighting for your soul to leave your body through dance. That's how I see it when I go into the ball. I'm like, I'm gonna dance till my soul leaves my body because it's like, it's gotta be that intense, the ball.

[22:38] Mike Abrams: And it would end there, the show would finish by the ball if Grizabella didn't disturb us.

[22:44] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, and come where she doesn't want it. She doesn't want it here. And so we, he would have picked someone, but she interrupts, and so we have to continue into act two.

[22:57] Mike Abrams: Interesting, okay, because that changes some things a little bit because I've always again felt it's more of the, the ball's part of the ritual, but not the, like again the halftime. It's the middle. Yeah, but you're saying like, so the Gus, Skimbleshanks, Mustafeles, they would have never had their chance besides the ball if Grizabella didn't come.

[23:17] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Absolutely. So, wow, okay, okay. I like it. I like it. This is what I love about the show because there's no wrong answer. I mean, I guess there's probably some wrong answers, but like for the most part, it's like there isn't a piece. I, it does make sense to end at the ball because everyone is at the moment, everyone.

[23:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah, okay, I'm fascinated. This is where this podcast messes with me because now I'm going to think about that for the rest of the evening, is being like, okay, well, what does that do here? What does that do there? Because it does, like all of act two now you have some changes that wouldn't be part of it. Like I think Gus makes a compelling case in act two for why they should go, but you're essentially saying we're one Grizabella away from Gus not even being in the running.

[24:04] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: This absolutely. And Macavity is not at the ball because he's not even a choice, like he's the evil, he's the villain, so he wouldn't even be considered. But almost every other cat that would be considered is at the ball, and that's why I actually found this so interesting is when we were learning the ball, Jemima and Victoria do "Jellicles come, Jellicles come to the Jellicle Ball," and we do like this voguing step choreographed by Gillian Lynn, and it makes so much sense that the Jellicle Ball is now being created as like a homage to like the vogue culture and the ballroom culture because there is evidence of even in the choreography, which is insane.

[24:50] Mike Abrams: Oh totally. Totally. I mean, I did a lot of episodes with them and had them on, and well, I'm sure do more with them when they come back to Brown in March. But there's a lot like that story is so clean in their world, like it actually, a lot of cats haters have come to see that and will see that and will say, oh, this makes sense because they eliminated the cat's costumes, which a lot of times like people are like, oh, that's it. So they cut that part out, not for any other reason than just their own storytelling that eliminated one kind of hate that a lot of times came. And the other part was it can be unclear, like if you're not watching at the level, not even at the level, just watching it as many times.

For me, the first time I saw, I had no idea what I watched. Yeah, like literally no idea what I watched. It was great. I still had a great time. Yeah, and I had fun and I was like, that was weird. That was fun. What an experience. Yeah, but I could not have told you the story right. And when you walk out of their show, you can tell the story, like it is very clear what the story is. And I think that is a unique piece of this because they don't like their ball is a little bit like their ball is honestly different. It's not like a, it doesn't feel like, you know what you're saying, which is that would be the end. Like it's very clear that's not the end in their show, but it's still, I do love the idea.

[26:11] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah.

[26:12] Mike Abrams: It is a competition, but there's multiple pieces because they walk so many different categories. So it's very competition heavy, which I do love because multiple cats win.

[26:22] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Oh, wow.

[26:29] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: They're, they win their, they, they walk their category and then they win. And then they keep going, so it's a very unique production. I'm very excited that more people will get to see it. But I'm fascinated by this, like the ball ending because is there an element of who gets to perform before the ball then? Because like, is there some seniority there or like Skimbleshanks and Gus probably want to be in the running as more of the older generation in the show, and they didn't get in the first part before the ball. So they're like not even an option, right?

[27:04] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Like this, the setting of it, like Bustopher Jones just happens to walk past at that time that allows him to take up his space, and we like, oh look, there's, you know, Jenny Annie Dot's boyfriend, or they have a kind of a love curiosity there, which is cute. Um, okay, he happens to walk past at that time, and then he's in the running. So it's also interesting to look at it set like this, the timeframe of the night. Yeah, I wonder if maybe in this way of thinking about it, none of the songs are actually an audition for being chosen. It's all just like leading up to the ball, yeah, and the ball is the competition. The rest is irrelevant. That's how I see it.

[28:02] Mike Abrams: Okay, I like this. It's different than the way I've ever thought about it, but it fits. I can totally buy it. And then the idea that, so the ball's just much, it's a one-act show. If Grizabella doesn't come in next year, it's one act on one act. Okay, next year we're doing 75 minutes and we're out.

[28:14] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, that'll make your show, your double showdown. We're exhausted. We're like, yeah, the ball, one ball, done. No, yeah, yeah, but we love it.

[28:22] Mike Abrams: Um, I want to hear a little bit about the audience reaction because this is like, it hasn't been there in a while, I don't think. Like it was before, but you know, this is obviously, it's running so many different places. But what is your early audience reactions been to doing this in South Africa so far?

[28:39] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: It's very interesting. We have had a very active audience, especially in Cape Town, um, because Cape Town within December is like a very festive place to be. It's like the sun is shining, everyone is out and about. So we had wonderful audiences in Cape Town, full houses, standing ovations every night. Like it was insane. We were like, oh, are we? Wow. So we were very spoiled, like spoiled in Cape Town.

[29:10] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, and like comedy, like really finding the comedy in it, like, um, when Gus says like the cat out of the bag, like picking up like each little like thing, like really paying, you know, attention to the comedy was really interesting. Um, and so interesting to see like sometimes they would applaud after the solo, my solo. Sometimes it would be super quiet, so it was interesting what kind of audiences you would get. Um, and like weird times of applause.

[29:52] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, it's strange, like not, they don't all have the same time. I mean, like obviously there's like the button of every scene, but there's moments where it's like very different. And I'm like, wow, this is a strange audience today, or this is like a very funny audience, or this is an emotional audience. Um, but our Grizabella is amazing. We get almost a standing ovation, I touch me almost every night, which is crazy.

[30:16] Mike Abrams: Wow, yeah, that's fun. I've always fascinated by the audience because like one thing that when I first saw it, I kind of really leaned into is I actually had a huge international group around me in New York, and I was sitting there and I was like, this is what I want when I walked out. Like this is a show that's perfect for an international, like someone that maybe English isn't your first language or whatever, because it almost doesn't matter. Like it's cats dancing and saying you'll have a great time whether you understand what's going on or not.

[30:41] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Because even if English is your first language or you don't know English, I was just as confused. And so I think it's like there, it's been around for so long that it's unique to hear how different like cities kind of embrace it and love it because it seems like there's a fan base almost everywhere, literally.

[31:11] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, there's a very, for sure, but there's a timelessness about it. There's a universal energy behind it. Everyone's seen a cat, a cat. Like there's something, like there's not a lot of divides with connecting with it. There's, you know, there's spectacle, there's song, and you're right. If English is not your first language, there's still so many, it's so physical. The storytelling is so physical.

[31:36] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: You are still taken on a journey, a very rewarding journey.

[31:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah, and you can tell the personality types. So I've always said that you probably relate to one of them, and you probably know somebody who's one of them for sure. You can pinpoint the like, that's the Tugger in my life, or that's the this cat in my life, and that makes it really easy to kind of like follow along because the personalities are so distinct.

[32:04] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, um, and I kind of love that where it makes it easy to connect to it. Whether you like, none of us are cats, no, like we're not actually connecting to it in that way, but we can follow along what's going on even if you have no idea what you're watching.

[32:13] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Absolutely. And I think that like even though, you know, the costumes were all created in the, in like that 80s kind of like shoulder pad where the fur is, like you can definitely see the influence of the 80s in the costumes in the classic Cats that we're doing.

[32:25] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, and also the influence of like the simplicity of the dancer attire of the 80s, um, how like the dancers would wear like unitards and like would wear the leg warmers. So it's really interesting to see how he, the creativity of getting inspired from dancewear and like the 80s kind of style, which I think is really cool.

[32:50] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, and it made it a little bit more human. Like they're not completely cats. It's like some are more cat-like, some are more like human-like. A Tugger is definitely more human-like. I mean, he's got a whole clock, which is so funny.

[33:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's just, it is a timely show. It can go on forever. Like it is literally now and forever as a tagline for a reason. And I think it will because it just, it falls like it can go through just any type of thing in any culture, any place, anywhere, and you're gonna follow and like it. And it's kind of the epitome of the big musical, just like the in-your-face 80s musical. And I love, I mean, that's what I love about it. I think it's fun.

[33:32] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I think I, I know there's a lot of haters. Yeah, I really challenge somebody to go and not have a good time watching it. Like you might be confused out of your mind and you might not really understand what's going on. If, and that's like that drove me crazy when I first saw, like what is the story? I want story. Like I'm so used to sitcoms and stuff like that.

[33:53] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: But I did walk out of there going like, for my first thought was actually as someone who played sports growing up was like, these are athletes. Like I was so, I was close enough to the stage where I was like, this is so physically demanding and looks so difficult. And they were all on the stage at all times that I'm like, when they got no break.

[34:07] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So I was like mesmerized by the ability for somebody to be able to do that for two and a half hours, almost more than anything else. Then I was a little frustrated because I couldn't figure out what the story was. And then I laughed because the names are so ridiculous, and I was trying to remember them over and over and over again. And then I tried to slowly piece together my version of what I saw.

[34:32] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, so that way I could try to explain it. And that to me is like the best musicals or theater is when I think about the next day. And I definitely thought about that show the next day. That's huge. And the earworm for me, it's like I can't get these songs out of my head.

[34:44] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Like, yeah, the way that it's written is so catchy, like hits for sure. Mr. Moustache, I was singing memory. Hit, mine was Mongo Jerry, Rumble Teaser was stuck in my head. And it was because I figured out finally later why it was, is because I was so overwhelmed, like visually stimulated by the amount of things happening.

[35:10] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, and that's the first moment in the entire show where it's just the two of them. And I think my brain just was like, okay, I can focus now on these two. And when I walked out, I think it hit me. I'm like, I think that's the reason I was stuck in my head because it's the first time I wasn't like mesmerized by three different people on stage.

[35:29] Mike Abrams: That's so funny.

[35:30] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So that's, that one's stuck in my head.

[35:32] Mike Abrams: That's so funny that you said that because, uh, on the Sunday in between our second show on Sunday, Mongo Jerry was like, we were like playing around. He was playing around with AI and he remixed the song Mongo Jerry, Rumble Teaser and made it like Afro house, like South African beats. It was so funny. I mean, we were listening.

[35:46] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I want to hear it.

[35:47] Mike Abrams: Oh my God, I'll send it to you. It's, we can't like it, but it is hysterical.

[35:51] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah, we can't, it can't go out to the world. I, I've had a few, um, things created where I'm like, I unfortunately cannot post that. It's the funniest song, but they're fun and there are people doing that.

[36:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah, no, it kept us, it kept us going. We used it in our warm-up because it was like insane that he was crazy. It was so funny.

[36:14] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: That's so fun.

[36:15] Mike Abrams: Okay, yeah. Um, any early like super memorable moments so far where it's just like, oh, I'm never gonna forget this 20 years later that's happened, either like errors or funny audience reactions or stuff that's like just immediately stood out?

[36:26] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yes, oh my gosh, funny audience reactions. What was that? Oh my God, on Sunday there was a spider on the stage, like an actual spider, really big spider, like, like this, like in my palm. And it was during, um, Remark the Cat, that very intense when Isabella comes on and it's so super tense. And it's the beginning, it's, you know, it's still act one. We're still substantiating a lot of like, you know, character relationships.

[36:59] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: And I'm there and I'm like, and there's a huge spider. And I was like, this is insane, like this crawling around, like in the spotlight, like in my face. And I am very afraid, like I do not like spiders, like I can't take it. And so I had to stay, you know, really present in the role when there's a ginormous, like scary, I don't know if this venomous, like spider. Are cats afraid of spiders? What's the cat's reaction? Like what's the character?

[37:33] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: But I did kill it, which I felt bad about.

[37:38] Mike Abrams: Oh no.

[37:39] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I felt really bad about it. That feels, that feels in, but I felt like a cat would do that. And I did it like on the beat, like I did, you know, where he's like Grizabella the glamour cat, and then I killed it. Felt so bad, but okay, I didn't know if it was gonna like bite me while I was in, you know, so I did that.

[37:55] Mike Abrams: No, you, yeah, you don't need a spider running around.

[37:57] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: That's, that was intense. That definitely, that was something. I mean, on stage, like during a show, I've never seen that in my life.

[38:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so that was something.

[38:06] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I mean, I'd be terrified. That's the Australia group going around where I'm like, everything there can kill you. And so if I saw a spider, it's like, no, no, I'm not dying today. Not today.

[38:15] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah, you got a lift to do here.

[38:19] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: So that's what I'm saying. Like I didn't want to start feeling woozy, like venom in my veins, like, you know, I don't know. So that was, that was great. That was pretty, I'm sure a lot of other things. I'm trying to think. I mean like, oh, the boot dropped at the wrong time. That was very funny because you know there's that instant boot drop and it dropped at the wrong time, but we held it together.

[38:43] Mike Abrams: But that was too early or too late?

[38:44] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: It was too early.

[38:45] Mike Abrams: Too early?

[38:46] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yes, that will really throw you off.

[38:49] Mike Abrams: Without probably makes your reaction more natural, right? Because you're expecting at a certain time it's supposed to be.

[38:56] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah.

[38:57] Mike Abrams: Okay, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. Let's do some rapid fire. Uh, so if you could go on for any cat, whether you could perform it male, female, doesn't matter, just one night, any cat, who do you want to play?

[39:07] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Oh my word, I probably want to play Skimbleshanks.

[39:13] Mike Abrams: Skimbleshanks, I love it. What a song and his, his like, uh, solo is so iconic. It's so cool.

[39:22] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Um, who are your favorite and least favorite cats from a personality standpoint? So like who would you want to hang out, not Victoria? Like who would you want to hang out with and who's the family member that would bug you?

[39:26] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Okay, I'd want to hang out with Old Deuteronomy. He is my cat, like he's so fun and cool and warm. And who I don't like? Probably Bustopher Jones.

[39:37] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's the, you're, that's the night where you're just like, yeah, I don't feel like you.

[39:46] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Yeah.

[39:47] Mike Abrams: Um, favorite song in the show?

[39:58] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Oh my God, um, Macavity.

[40:07] Mike Abrams: Okay, that's my answer still. I love Macavity. I've been trying, um, Spotify, I want, because the like Macavity song, like I want the song, but the actual one on Spotify from the cast album, or at least the one that I can find is like seven minutes. And so it's like the full, it's like all the leading and all the other stuff. And as someone who rides the New York subway every day, I can't have that on my playlist being like, why is it quiet, like really eerily quiet here in the beginning of the song? So I can never get like, I need someone to make me a clean Macavity.

[40:32] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: The clean Macavity has no one covered that.

[40:36] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I think the most important thing for me was just being able to connect with the character on a deeper level. Victoria is such a unique character in CATS, and I wanted to bring my own interpretation to her while still honoring the original vision.

[41:06] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I started dancing at a very young age, and I was always drawn to musical theater. My first exposure to theater was through local productions, and I fell in love with the art form.

[41:08] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Auditioning for Victoria was a thrilling experience. I remember preparing for the audition by studying the character and the choreography extensively.

[41:10] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: The character relationships in CATS are so intricate. Victoria has a special bond with other characters, and I love exploring those dynamics on stage.

[41:12] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: The Jellicle Ball is a massive dance competition, and it’s intense. Each character is trying to prove their worth to Old Deuteronomy, and that competitive nature really adds to the energy of the performance.

[41:14] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I’ve had some incredible audience reactions during performances. It’s always rewarding to see how the audience connects with the story and the characters.

[41:16] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: One of my favorite moments on stage is during the Jellicle Ball. The energy is electric, and it’s such a joy to perform alongside my fellow cast members.

[41:18] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I think studying feline behavior has been crucial for my portrayal of Victoria. Understanding how cats move and interact has helped me embody the character more authentically.

[41:20] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: The costumes are also a significant part of the character. Wearing Victoria’s costume helps me get into character and feel more connected to her.

[41:22] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I’ve learned so much from my fellow cast members. Each person brings their own unique style and interpretation to their roles, which enriches the overall performance.

[41:24] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I love the sense of community within the cast. We support each other both on and off stage, which creates a positive environment for everyone.

[41:26] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: The choreography in CATS is challenging but so rewarding. It pushes me to grow as a dancer and performer every night.

[41:28] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I’ve had some memorable moments with the audience, especially when they react to the more emotional scenes. It’s a reminder of the impact we can have through our performances.

[41:30] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: The journey of performing in CATS has been transformative for me. It’s not just about the dance; it’s about telling a story and connecting with people.

[41:32] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I’m excited for the future of the South Africa tour. Each city brings a new audience, and I can’t wait to share the magic of CATS with them.

[41:34] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I think the essence of CATS lies in its ability to evoke emotions and create a sense of wonder. It’s a timeless story that resonates with people of all ages.

[41:36] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I’m grateful for the opportunity to play Victoria and to be part of such an iconic production. It’s a dream come true.

[41:38] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I encourage everyone to come see the show. It’s a unique experience that you won’t want to miss.

[41:40] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Thank you for having me on the podcast. It’s been a pleasure sharing my journey and insights about CATS.

[41:42] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: I look forward to connecting with fans on social media and sharing more about my experiences in the show.

[41:44] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: You can find me on Instagram at @cassiel101, where I post updates about the tour and behind-the-scenes moments.

[41:46] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: The South Africa tour is an incredible opportunity, and I’m excited to see where this journey takes me next.

[41:48] Cassiel Eatock-Winnik: Thank you to everyone for listening, and I hope to see you at a performance soon!