This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:15] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest.

[0:20] Mike Abrams: He's been in productions of Cats since 2011, and most recently has been Skimbleshanks on the International Tour. So, welcome, Gavin Eden. Thank you for joining me.

[0:29] Gavin Eden: Thank you for having me. Very happy to be here.

[0:32] Mike Abrams: I'm excited. You have a wealth of Cats knowledge from the experiences you've had with helping set up Royal Caribbean Cruises Oasis of the Seas, and doing it in German, and in Korea, and in China, and on the International Tour, and multiple different characters. So I've been wanting to have you on for a while. We couldn't do it while you were performing, but the International Tour is now over. And so now's the time to have you on. I'm very excited to have you.

[0:59] Gavin Eden: I've made a load of notes that in the hope that somewhere in the dark recesses of my brain, I'll be able to pull up the memories. But yeah, I've been around for a long, long time.

[1:10] Mike Abrams: Amazing. And I was excited. I did get to see you when I came into Frankfurt and get to see your Skimbleshanks, which was super fun. And I saw some of those notes because you shared them. And so I have some questions in there about that, which are really cool. But I'm gonna start with the beginning. Cats history, as a child, when did you first see it?

[1:27] Gavin Eden: 1998 VHS. Surprise, surprise. I have quite a distinct memory of being shut away in a room at the top of a family friend's house with a load of other kids. And while the grown-ups were downstairs doing grown-up things like dinner parties, we were banished to this room to watch Cats or the Eurovision Song Contest. Those were your two choices. That's it. Yeah. Well, I mean, those are the memories I had. I was very small at the time. From that time, all I really remember is Mistoffelees and probably the Macavity girls. I was already doing ballet at that time. So I think I latched on to Misto because he was making recognizable shapes. And we had a pet cat called Pudding that was black and white. And obviously, so there's a heavy bias there.

[2:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah, you're waiting for Pudding to do some turns.

[2:22] Gavin Eden: Exactly. Exactly that. I was also absolutely obsessed with Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman in Batman Returns, the cat people in Doctor Who and any cartoon with cats in. So I think that's my personality trait. My defining personality trait is cats.

[2:41] Mike Abrams: Did your ballet company ever do any, like when you were learning ballet, you're dancing, are you doing any like, when does Cats get introduced to schooling of dance, like for most kids?

[2:56] Gavin Eden: Good question. I think for my age group, so for context, I'm 41 now. And like, so it was still one of the mega musicals at the time when I was born and like, growing up with it. So I just think in any, any dancing school, I, you know, I'll have watched a, someone doing a song and dance festival thing to Macavity. I'm suddenly vaguely remembering, I might have even done something at a competition that's just just in the dark recesses of my brain. I didn't go on any like dance school trips to see it. But I saw it three times, maybe more question mark live with my parents. I remember seeing it at the what was then the New London with its amazing revolving junkyard wall. I was lucky enough to go and see it at the Winter Garden on Broadway.

And the theatre or Plymouth, which is like my local, local theatre, touring production would go there. You know, I think, you know, it's probably my first full length show I saw. I think it's my mum loves theatre. And I think this was like an easy route in, you know, she'd take me to see like triple bills of ballet. So because you know, that is just too long. So like three short ones so that my attention span would work. And then cats is an easy family option.

[4:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. When you when did you decide to do like a career make a career out of dancing and ballet and theatre? And when you made that decision? Was it immediate? Like, hey, I want to do cast like that's, that's my future?

[4:40] Gavin Eden: I think so for people who aren't familiar with the UK, I live in Cornwall. And it's a really quiet, we've got this fantastic theatre, the theatre all nearby, but like the arts aren't, weren't huge down here. And especially for boys when I was growing up. So we had to have conversations when I was like, 14 or 15 about is this a thing? I was already going to London twice a week to train at the Royal Ballet School. And so I think we realised that maybe it was an option. So then I was auditioning for professional schools at 16. So I left home at 16 to train graduated when I was 19. The interesting thing is around that time. I don't think I was particularly into cats. Then there was a period I really I couldn't explain why but I just I was not drawn to it.

I auditioned for it probably when I was like 20 or 21 and didn't get it. Don't blame them. I don't think my singing voice was up to scratch then. And maybe like my approach to movement was not mature enough. Then I think that so I then joined a dance company called New Adventures. And there's a few of us that have gone on to do cats or done cats between New Adventures projects. And that's like a dance theatre company that is really focused on storytelling through movement. They have some of my favourite dancers in the world, but like the ethos is the storytelling. So then when I auditioned in my late 20s question mark, yeah, late 20s. You know, I think that my approach was just more from a imagery and acting point of view. And I'm guessing Chrissy saw that and liked that. I'm very lucky that they took a risk on me because I didn't speak German. So that was for the German tent or the 10 tour.

[6:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And that's your first production, right? Is the German 10 tour, I think late 20s. And you don't speak German. So you're now learning the show for the first time in German?

[6:46] Gavin Eden: Yes. Yes. Wow. I'm learning it phonetically. Yeah, I was really lucky. I mean, like in Germany, they really respect theatre and musical theatre and like, they pay money. So I think I was very lucky. I believe it was the stage manager, Juan, convinced them to fly me out a week early. And I just did phonetics. I was going in to play Mungo for that. And obviously, Mungo Jean-Robert is very wordy. It's a patter song. And I studied German when I was like 11 and then dropped it when I was 13. So I could say I have two gerbils. Yeah, I could I you know, I needed to do some extra work. So they called me up a week earlier. I have phonetic lessons every day with the old Deuteronomy, Martin Berger, before all the other newbies arrived.

And then we rehearsed the show. Yeah, even then, like, I was learning phonetically. And obviously, you, of course, you have an idea about what you're singing about. And especially Mungo Jean-Robert is because loads of mine attached to the movement. Of course, I knew what I was singing about. But I don't understand or didn't understand the grammar. And I don't have access to other words. So if I go wrong, I can't salvage it. Yeah. You know, like if it was in English and touch wood, but like, you can cover your cover your back. Yeah, I remember in particular, there was a section I had like a week where I couldn't, I just couldn't get this phrase out. It's the section where we were sat on the floor with our legs up pivoting on our bum cheeks, talking about the food going to waste.

And I just I just couldn't do it. I'd practice it like three times off stage before I go on. And then I go on stage and it would just be mortified. And then and then it went away. Then it was fine again.

[8:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So what is learning the show? Like, does Chrissy come in for this German tent tour and give you this story in English? And then you're learning like the background and thought and all the character relationships in English. And then you're learning this, the singing and the storytelling in German. And the dance is universal. Like there's so many parts for the first time you're doing the show. What was the storytelling aspect of learning the show at that point?

[9:20] Gavin Eden: Well, first of all, I think, again, I was just super lucky and all of the English cast was super lucky because it was a really multinational group. We had people from Brazil. We had people from Germany. We had people from England. So like English had to be the universal language. So everything was conducted in English, be it like important business stuff or notes. And yes, Chrissy was there from the beginning. She did. Sorry, I've heard her say it so many times, I'm trying to think about see in my head what room we were in. But yeah, she would have done the story that by this point you would think is a script. But it's always different. It's always fresh. She's always got a new memory about, you know, a different anecdote or memories about different performers. Yeah, so she's there. She's telling the story, not a script. I've heard it differently. Well, seven times, I guess.

[10:28] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah. Well, so that's really interesting because I've always thought, I know she doesn't have a script, but I figured she had a pretty, like, here's kind of the general idea. But I love hearing that she does a different anecdote. And then I'm also curious of the seven times, like, how much does she adjust over moment in time or the individual where it's like, hey, you're, I'm noticing this is actually your personality. So that's how you can bring this personality into this character with a slight tweak.

[10:49] Gavin Eden: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She, I think what I was spellbound by from straight from the first rehearsal process, and I've been enamored by the way she works. Every time I get to watch her work, there's a lot of space, and she really trusts performers to go away and think. So she doesn't say a lot. She says, like, very insightful, crystal clear suggestions to the performer. And then it's down to us to go away and like, filter that through our brains and our bodies. So I think it's quite natural that each character kind of develops into something different each time. Yeah. And I think so obviously, I've been skinned a lot recently. And we always have, even for like, after we had like a five week break, there will be an I was gonna say a week, I'd love it to be a week. It's often just a couple of days. But yeah, but you have a period of time with her. And like, I'm, like, I'm renowned for being a pedant for detail. And like, I'm

[12:37] Gavin Eden: Yeah. I've always been really interested in the idea, because you aren't changing the choreography. You're not changing even where you're staging and a lot of that stuff. But you can change the reaction to a certain character, or even when you're looking to which person are you looking at in that moment. Because as long as you're looking, I don't know, downstage or whatever, it doesn't really matter, because you can add some of those moments. And there's a lot of times when you're not the front and center involved, where you're with another cat, and you can either play it as like, we're doing stuff together, or we're kind of a little annoyed with each other. You can do all that. And that, to me, is the freedom of Cats that the superfans notice, because they're watching.

And the first time you're watching it, you're just watching whoever's singing, and you're already so confused that you're not picking up all those other things. But it's interesting to hear you say that being someone that generally likes to keep it fairly reliable. How has that evolved when you've changed between characters? Because you started in Mungojerrie, but then you covered, and you got to perform as a lot of different characters, and then now you're Skimbleshanks. And you now know a little bit from those other characters having performed them. So is there a little bit of understanding the other side of it while you're performing as a different character? Do you bring that into your storytelling of that character?

[13:56] Gavin Eden: I think you have to. It has to inform choices. I also think that the constellation of the cast changing will change the relationship. So I'll come back to Mungo in a moment, but just at the forefront of my mind, with the tour that I've just been doing, Skimbleshanks is with Jemima a lot. And I'm kind of like her uncle. I'm very concerned with her well-being and her tendency to gravitate towards Isabella. And working with Gabby Parker, who I've known for years, I taught her at college, and then we performed together. And she trained at the school that I trained at. So we have quite similar impulses with movement. We're also setting the blocking for scenes. I'm thinking about remark and how I insert my body between her and Grizabella.

And we would often move in one breath in the same way, because that's just what our bodies are programmed to do. But if a swing's on, I'm immediately thinking of you had Megan on a few months ago, and she was a swing on our tour, a phenomenal actress, wonderful dancer as well, completely different reactions physically. And while our story has to remain the same, all of our looks, all of the way we hold our bodies and everything changes, because the energy is different.

[15:51] Gavin Eden: Going back to thinking about Mungo and covering Mistoffelees, I think, if I'm honest, Mistoffelees, I always felt a little bit fraudulent playing him, because I came from like, I trained in ballet, but then became much more contemporary dance. And like, obviously, the solo has a lot of strong classical elements. So I was joked, I was probably the most contemporary version of the role. I enjoyed him because he had like some, you could be more aloof, you could sit back and like, observe more. But my relationship has Skimbleshanks to Sam's Mistoffelees. Sam's Mistoffelees is completely different to mine. I think we are staged to be together during Peaks and Pollicles. And because we're friends outside, that informs our interactions with each other. But I don't know if my Mistoffelees experience of being Mistoffelees affects the way I interact with him.

[16:58] Gavin Eden: Yeah. What about with the Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer kind of duo? Because you've played that for a couple productions. And it's one of the ones that has probably the most unknown of how they play it. Like, I've heard very clearly dating, very clearly brother, sister, very clearly best friends. And it seems very dependent on the two people, like the personality. Are they actually friends? But that's the one that I've heard the most variations. So having done it, have you played kind of all different versions of that?

[17:29] Gavin Eden: I think with all of my Rumpleteazers, it was platonic. It was sort of probably more best friends and brother, sister, generally speaking. Obviously, we have the guidance that Rumpleteazer is easily led by Mungojerrie. And he'll kind of put her into... She's the litmus test for how dangerous something is. He'll let her go first and all that. So my first Rumpleteazer was Marlene de Vries. And we were inseparable socially as well. We did everything together. I think that's the most intimate I've ever been with anyone on stage, ever. I think that it's a different time now. And I think that societal changes have happened where we're less likely to want to pile on top of one another. But with her constantly intertwined, wrapped around each other.

And I'd say that on stage, it was still the same with my second Rumpleteazer, Jo Lucy Rackham. But she was in a relationship at the time. And so we absolutely socialized together, but we weren't spending every waking hour together. And I'm sure that there would have been subtle differences. I'm not inferring that they were negative at all. We were great together. But I think that it would have just by definition been different.

[19:16] Gavin Eden: Yeah. It's such an inherently closeness of this show. It becomes very family. You have to get really comfortable with being uncomfortable with everybody in the cast because you're in unitards and crawling around on top of each other through a lot. And like you said, I'm sure it has evolved over time. And there's different times like you mentioned, but it's still a lot more than most people are seeing on stage currently because it's Cats and that's a big part of the show. But it is fascinating to hear a little bit of the difference of the relationships. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. I do want to pivot, though, a little bit to the helping start The Royal Caribbean, because you were in the beginning helping figure out, I believe, how to stage this show from day one.

[20:11] Gavin Eden: Um, I mean, I wasn't in the office negotiating. Yeah, no, no. But this was the first cast, right?

[20:18] Gavin Eden: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I was very lucky after we'd finished the tent tour, which was, I did two years of that. I was then doing We Will Rock You in the West End. But I joined that show planning to do, I was like, I'm going to sit here. I'm going to do a teacher training course while I'm doing this, like this is going to pay my mortgage for ages. And we closed after eight months, which is obviously like, well, a shame for the show. My life's been fine since. But because I was then suddenly free, and what was actually quite a lovely thing, I was at Pineapple Dance Studios just doing class. And I was aware that they were auditioning for the next tour of Cats upstairs. I had not yet finished Rock You.

But I, you know, I knew that I wasn't going to be available for that tour. Therefore, it wasn't weird for me to go upstairs and be like, Hello, everyone. How are you? So I just went up to say hello to Chrissy and Joe, who was going to be assisting her on that, just to be social. And then I was really lucky that Chrissy was like, You're closing soon. Are you free? And that was my opportunity to then go and assist Chrissy. Obviously, in reality, it's all down to the doyen, Chrissy, for staging it. I was just her little minion at the side, like making notes, running around helping people if they hadn't got the movement, taking warm up while Chrissy was talking to Graham, the ND, about how the day was going to be or what problem they had to fix then. So I wasn't responsible. Yeah, I was just I was I was assisting and facilitating involved.

[22:09] Gavin Eden: Yeah, I I'm fascinated by the Royal Caribbean. I want to go like I've been trying to like figure out going on it because the evolution of that show and just in general is, is pretty wild. And I just went on a Royal Caribbean cruise this year, this past year, that had Back to the Future.

[22:27] Gavin Eden: Yeah, I was on the beginning. It was a, you know, an invited type of thing to where it was same thing like they're working out the kinks, the cars not flying every time and they're trying to solve everything. And I know that this ship is like, you got to have the tire working, you're doing it through movement, through the motion of anything happening. And then it's been 15 years, I think, or this is like 16 years now. I've talked to a couple people in the last couple productions. It's went from a full show with intermission to 90 minutes. It's gone from, you know, there's the weirdness of if they have an announcement, they cut them off. Like, it's just so different to me than the theater production or the tent tour or what you've been on tour, the international tour, we were going to a set opera house or a place and having a paying audience that's coming in, ready to see Cats is like chosen to spend their night seeing Cats versus the reverse, which is I'm going to the Caribbean for four days or seven days.

And this happens to be happening on the ship while I'm there. Yeah, three times or whatever that is. How does that change the process? Like, does it or does it not change the process at all? Are you teaching them and prepping them to do the show, but they're not doing it eight times a week. They're not doing it for an audience that's paid like it's just such a different mindset.

[23:50] Gavin Eden: I think we because it was the first time we didn't know how different it was going to be or what the hurdles were going to be until it opened. So it very quickly became apparent as you as you say, the audience members have, you know, they've not paid for that ticket. So there's no obligation or

[24:14] Gavin Eden: On the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour, Skimbleshanks on the International Tour.

[30:45] Mike Abrams: What have you noticed as you've done this in different places? And the first time you saw someone in cosplay? And all the different variations of what you've experienced doing this for so many different years?

[30:56] Gavin Eden: Sure. So the tent tour, that was really interesting. That's probably the biggest audience volume I've performed in front of. That was 1,800, I think, maybe. But this was like back in 2011, 2012. So it was before Instagram and TikTok and the camera phones existed, but were grainy. You weren't taking a lot of photos from this.

[31:27] Mike Abrams: No, people weren't filming. I remember the audience as being super respectful, super enthusiastic. Germany obviously has a great theatre history, both in terms of opera and classical music, and now musical theatre. So there's an inbuilt appreciation there. That was my first encounter with cosplayers. So people turning up and sitting in the front row in full cat's regalia made by a professional costumer, professional wig knotters. I remember back then finding it quite jarring. I think I felt like they were trying to have an impact on the show rather than enjoying the show. I don't think that anymore. This was just my younger brain being a bit judgmental. I respect the artistry of it. I think that anyone that's got that level of love for anything, do it.

There's not enough commitment. There's not enough love in the world. Please share that enthusiasm with the world. So younger Gavin was just a bit judgmental, but I really respect it now. Nowadays, I'm just more annoyed if people bring cat toys or people think it's okay to actually stroke us in the top of Act Two when you're crawling down through. I'm still sweating from the ball. The sight of someone touching me and then recoiling in disgust because I'm damp isn't particularly pleasant. It yanks you out of character, so I'm more annoyed by things like that.

[33:16] Mike Abrams: Does that happen that often?

[33:16] Gavin Eden: Depends on the country. Germany, super respectful. Obviously, going back there more recently, there are cameras everywhere now, and I think they're still quite respectful during the show, but I think that what we all see everywhere does is just faces getting illuminated by a phone by someone being on autopilot and just going and checking their phone, which is obviously distracting for the semi-quaver, you know, for a beat, and then you're back in it as long as someone's not texting away or filming. I think there are interesting developments. So Korea, I toured there many moons ago with New Adventures, and again, that was before camera phones. I'd worked for Tokyo Disneyland for a year. That was my first job, question mark, first long job.

So I got used to Japanese audiences who were very reserved, and then applause, then bows happen, and then it's big applause, and then they'll keep you at stage door for ages with gifts and things. And I remember experiencing that again with New Adventures, and then we went from Japan to Korea, and the audience were raucous throughout with you, absolutely engaged, but big laughter, big applause, really vocal. So that was already an interesting culture change from those two countries. Going back to Korea with cats, same, but now they film the bows. There's a culture of it's happening everywhere. They're filming the bows, so there's less applause. So you're coming out, and I don't know, I'm suddenly feeling like I'm sounding egocentric, but if we worked hard, did you enjoy it? And of course they did. Maybe they're holding a phone in one hand and doing a sign language applause with the other. That's what I would do, but it's quite jarring. It's very different.

[35:31] Mike Abrams: I hadn't thought about that, because that is so common. The last Broadway show I went to, you know, I usually am very much the clapping, and it's like, maybe I'll take a picture. Cats is a little different, because I'm like, here, I'm closely tied to it. So yeah, I am kind of filming some of this. But you're right, I'm not clapping when I'm filming, because I've got a phone in my hand, and it's like I can whistle or cheer, but it's not quite the same as doing both and clapping. So that's kind of, yeah, that's so true. I hadn't thought about it from that side of like, you're expecting a bigger ending for yourself, and instead you're just getting filmed. Maybe we could do a public service announcement on your podcast. Friends, when you're watching and you want to film the end, you want to film the bows, like, film and take a picture, but make noise, and then please put your phone away and clap. And then tag you, so that way you can get at least the social media love.

[36:21] Gavin Eden: I think the other interesting tour was China into Manila Singapore. So this is the tour that I did before the world was on fire in 2019. And I think like Western shows have been going to China for years, but they're still kind of getting used to Western theatre culture there.

[36:46] Yeah, and all again, all of the unspoken rules that are made up, but we're used to playing those games so to speak. So also like we went to some truly incredibly beautiful and well-designed theatres that would then have like one random quirk that made it like twice as hard or twice as hard be that a random corridor to get out front for the runouts. Sorry to come in from the back or a beautiful glass wall that's next but like is next to stage door and we're like walking around dripping wet and the cut glass is cold or audience members can see us in half cat. And again, it's just, you know, they've designed these beautiful spaces, but maybe aren't used to our rules and it's of cats has got loads of really random rules about, you know, not being seen in half cat.

[37:52] Yeah, totally, you know, that's a cat specific thing. So yeah, they did. I was gonna say there are a lot of nuances with I mean, even when I was in Frankfurt. I know it's like I think it was an opera house. It felt like an opera house and it's very big and the audio when you all were singing and the music was playing was so crystal clear when I got really quiet and it was like the one line at a time type of stuff.

[38:25] Yeah, it's like really quiet. It was like almost hard to hear. Yeah, and I was like those are even those nuances in each place you go like ignoring just like being able to get out to the front or wherever you need to go or older on me walking down. Yeah, all of those things are technically challenged, but then there's there's the how do you make sure that the different points of the quiet parts of the show and the loud parts of the show are all still enjoyable because I know like in Broadway they they kind of go seat by seat by seat and make sure it sounds where they want it.

[39:02] You can't do that when you're there for a week or however many days. I mean, that's our incredible sound department doing incredible work. I think that happens everywhere in all shows. I know we're here to talk about cats, but immediately in the front of my head. I went to see Black Sabbath the ballet which Birmingham Ballet of touring and I went to a Q&A and they have a live guitarist and their sound designer on the panel and they were talking about how the sound in the theatre Royal Plymouth is different to where they just been and it's the same for us.

[39:30] It takes that first show. We have it, you know, we have a technical rehearsal and they do the sound checks, but there's that, you know, they're live mixing. They're still trying to figure these things out and then you put bodies in the space and the bodies absorb the sound. Yeah, so it takes a show or two to like optimize it is why I always say to my mom if she's going to go and see something at the theater or like don't go on night one if it's a touring production because they're going to be figuring it out.

[40:02] Yeah, or go knowing you're going to have some fun with that. Of course, that's going to be part of it because I've seen that a couple times where I'm from where I've been to the first night and I'm like, oh that that was their mic bumpy ride, you know, like like they that mic was supposed to be on there and I don't like to do that unless it's something I've seen before because it's like it's kind of a unique experience, but yeah, I want to do before we get to rapid fire into the important question.

[40:23] I do want to hear some fun stories. Like I know you you shared some of the notes you had and I want to make sure we capture a couple of these because you had a couple really fun unique kind of memorable moments. Yeah. So what are those things you're never going to forget and these, you know, you might not be done with cats like there's still now and forever but at least as of today or some of those things you're never going to forget we've done for done for a little bit mate.

[40:51] I mean never say never maybe I'll come back as Gus things. I remember hardest thing I've ever ever done act one Mungo Jerry act two Mistoffelees that was truly horrendous and Chrissy Cartwright was in the audience watching. So there was like, you know an added level of she does not apply pressure. She's an incredibly generous nurturing director, but you put pressure on yourself then.

[41:21] Yeah, when do you learn about that? Is that at intermission? You're told hey go change your makeup real quick. Or do you learn because like you see Mistoffelees get hurt or yeah, I think I came off from the ball and you know, bodies are strewn everywhere. People are packing people got their legs up. My habit is like walk it off a bit and do a little stretch. Okay, but you know, everyone has their set places they go to and the Mistoffelees was not in his usual place was lying down somewhere else and was clearly not okay.

[41:55] So then, you know, yes very quickly and the dance captain came up and said I you'll be doing Mr. I think on that occasion. I'd not done it for a while. I just because of the nature of the role. Obviously I was I was second cover, but of course you get thrown on quite a lot but they've been a run of me not doing it for a while.

[42:19] And I think if I remember correctly, I went to the Wigs department and said say no if you want but would you mind painting me a bit while I think in my head, which is not, you know, that's not standard. I was just like being opportunistic and be like I could really do with just sitting with my eyes closed for five minutes and think about the solo.

[42:40] Yeah. So yeah, I think they did my base for me while I thought and then I painted the rest and was was on but that was really hard physically even fathom. I just felt a bit broken because like the lovely the lovely structure of Mungo is that like the show's front heavy but after the interval like you've just got a carte blanche for bad behavior.

[43:04] Yeah, and you of course you do bits and bobs but like the hard work's done. Whereas in mist those show like you you play him quiet and aloof because you know what's about to come and like and so you and you know how to pace yourself, but obviously I'd gunning gone in guns blazing in at one is Mungo and then was like, oh, I've got anything in the tank.

[43:29] Of course, of course. It was fine. Adrenaline brings. Yeah, sure. But the worst of what much better after the show you needed a recovery moment probably way more than I was just sat looking broken the other the other I'd say awful not awful. It's just it's amazing but was terrifying is like to get up for the man drop in the tent.

[43:49] You just had to climb up a vertical ladder with no harness or anything like the stage manager when I had my tech is like if you feel you're falling for backwards because there's a cage behind you and that will stop you. But other than that you're just climbing up your legs already getting shaky as you climb up there and then you walk along a plank many many hundreds of meters up and then you put and at this time there weren't any clips or anything.

[44:16] It was just like one hand in a loop one foot in a loop and then just step out into the void and start going down. So I just I just hated that so much but once that's happening like the juggernauts rolling. It's I actually quite enjoyed the solo once it was up and running but that bit was traumatic other memories.

[44:39] There's a video Daniel Terry and did like a bloopers cats video that my friend Josh Andrews who I did the tent or with he sent it to me ahead of this so I could kind of watch it and there's a video it must have been. Of a tech rehearsal. It must have been where Minori who was our tantamile her tap shoes hadn't been rubbered.

[45:06] So and like we're on a rake and the stage is slippy. And so there's just this video of us doing the old version of the tap Jilly's choreography version. Forgive me right now. I can't remember exactly what step it was but like she's just ice skating and she's down and she's up and she's side-to-side and the group have traversed the stage and she's like ice skating on the spot and it's it's it's like a slapstick movie from like the sick that you know from the days gone by.

[45:38] It's so so funny and we just kept watching that video on repeat like the week that followed just watching her kind of like careering around the stage and I need to emphasize she was a phenomenal dancer and like very in control of her body. This isn't anything to do with her talent. It was just like all of the forces were against her in that moment.

[46:01] It's so funny to watch and then one other which I kind of learned about is the power that I had during my number during this last tour where as I said earlier, I'm very predictable everything's like hyper choreographed like I've got a script going on in my head to make sure that the thoughts are right but in order to keep the number fresh I would make conscious choices.

[46:32] Okay, I have I've been woken up and then I'm going to say all the guards and all the porters and the station master's daughters and I decided that station master's daughters has to be someone different every show it just has to be to make it fresh for me and that became like I started getting requests like people like can I be the station master's daughters? I really need it as it you want and like people just feel like really like you'd see the energy lift and it's so silly but it's obviously because I'm like such a creature of habit the fact that I'm changing something I guess feels like I'm bestowing a gift on them.

[47:10] I don't know but I like learning that power gave me such joy and like so if a new swing was on or someone's doing the show for the first time like Amy Whittle a good friend of mine is like come in numerous times to bail out people while we've been, you know, low on the ground.

[47:31] So obviously her first show she had to be station master's daughters and there's other points in the number where I do the same thing like who gets the mouse and when the guard looks impolitely and like the choreography takes me upstage. I'd look at someone different each time with a slightly flirtatious look or something and that always felt really special.

[48:01] Yeah, this is your Jellicle choice. Yes, exactly exactly and I've just got a lovely just because I brought up Amy Whittle a lovely memory of we've got had like obviously we spoke earlier about different dynamics happen and we decided during rehearsals. I can't remember what this was for. Maybe it was Korea could have been China, but we decided that Mungo Jerry was our illegitimate child.

[48:26] Now I, as Skimbleshanks play him as the gay uncle and like we've decided that.

[48:29] Gavin Eden: This was like, you know, before I knew who I was, and we were experimenting, and Mungo is the result of that. And that really probably influenced my relationship with Marcus May, who's a good friend of mine now, like we worked on that idea together. But there's a moment improvising where he's, Mungo's like, asking to go and join the big boys to dance with them. And we're like, no, it's not, you're too young. It's too rude. It's too sexy or whatever. No. And she turns to me and goes, well, it's your son. Sort him out. Just a really joyful, silly, improvised moment that made me very happy and probably dropped character and laughed in the moment. I love it. I love any addition to the family tree that's not spoken. We're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died. Let's do some rapid fire.

[49:25] Mike Abrams: Sure. Because sticking, getting us here to the end, but if you could go on one night, any character, doesn't matter, male, female, who would you want to go on as?

[49:31] Gavin Eden: I would want to be Bom.

[49:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[49:39] Gavin Eden: But I think in reality, I'd end up being Jelly.

[49:42] Mike Abrams: Oh, interesting. Okay.

[49:44] Gavin Eden: Casting wise.

[49:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[49:46] Gavin Eden: I dream of being Bom. Realistically, I'm Jelly Lorem.

[49:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah. See, I'm asking this question from forget casting, because I can't do any of them. I can't sing or dance any of these numbers. So it's which one would you want to do if you could just-

[49:59] Gavin Eden: I want to be Bom. I want to sing that big ballsy number, and I want to move my body in that really satisfying, slinky, earthy way. And the confidence and grandeur that she carries, I just think is super powerful. I'd like to feel that power.

[50:21] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Favorite and least favorite cat, personality wise.

[50:26] Gavin Eden: Who would I hang out with? I'd hang out with Bom in the gay bars. Skimble and Munkerstrap would sit in the pub together, rolling our eyes at the younger generation. And I think Jelly would drive Skimble up the wall and me up the wall, Gavin up the wall. But we'd often end up having tea somewhere just by default and by societal structure or something. I just see those things happening. I do.

[51:01] Mike Abrams: It's- I got it. Favorite song.

[51:04] Gavin Eden: Oh, gosh. Changes every time. This might be because I've just said it and I've imagined doing it, but Macavity. I just think the build, the horns in it and stuff, it's just so well constructed and it's so sexy. Yeah. Yeah. So that today. Today.

[51:24] Mike Abrams: Yeah. No, mine changes all the time too, but that's still my answer right now. Okay. My fun one, because you've changed who is the station master's daughter every time. This is your Jellicle choice. Which cat do you actually think is or could be, if you were putting a, you know, casting them as the station master's daughter, which cat would you cast as that?

[51:46] Gavin Eden: Oh, God. Okay. So I haven't thought about that because it's always been kind of like a, not a joke, but you know, an improvisational moment. If we're casting it, like if we were re-choreographing the number and it would be, obviously it'd be Skimble Shanks and Jenny Any Dots in charge, re-choreographing it. Mistoffelees would be a consultant, I feel. Who would it be? Oh, duh. Skimble would choose Jemima because she's his angel child that can do no wrong. And, you know, he would coach her privately. We'd have like auditions, but she has already been cast and I've given her previous rehearsals. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely that. Yeah, for sure.

[52:30] Mike Abrams: Perfect. Okay. Million dollar question. I have argued at length. I don't think Grisbel's the right Jellicle choice. So I want to know, you Gavin, who's your Jellicle choice and why?

[52:39] Gavin Eden: I'm sorry to say it is Grisabella. However, I am very happy to thrash out a new idea with you.

[52:47] Mike Abrams: Okay. Because having listened to Megan and Sam Brown's episodes with you, I'm kind of on board with the idea of Old Deuteronomy, like volunteering himself to go. I feel though that if he's doing that, it's because Gris is going to step into his shoes. Forever or one year or how long? I think Munkerstrap wouldn't be able to live with it himself if she was there for too long. But I feel like there's something about Old Deuteronomy. You know, he sees that she's got a lot to teach the tribe. We learn a lot from her from that one song and our various encounters. He's trying to get us to learn from her, and I feel like there's something that could be explored in that she's there for a year to kind of instill a new ethos in the tribe.

So many people on your podcast have talked about how she deserves time with the tribe. I like that. I feel in the context of our show, she's on death's door. She's a cat coming home to find her safe place before she goes away. So she has to go on to the Heaviside Lair. She has to go to heaven. But yeah, if she could maybe step in. Duke goes. He's earned it. She steps in for a year. Maybe Munk's going to have his trainer wheels on for a bit longer. Then she steps down after a year, whether that's she goes to the Heaviside Lair or just becomes the king's mother. I don't know. I like that idea.

[54:51] Gavin Eden: And then Munk would step up. Obviously, then does she sing the Addressing of Cats? I think that some of the wording would have to change, but I like that idea. She doesn't sing a lot in the show. I mean, obviously, she's got big numbers, but she's actually not on a lot, so it gives her something else to do. That's true. I hadn't thought about the Addressing of Cats. I've always thought if you pick anybody else that's not Old Deuteronomy, you just slide Grizabella into their spot and nothing really changes. But if you pick Old Deuteronomy, he sings a little song. So that's interesting. Maybe he just sings it from the tire and that could be part of it. I'll take your idea a step further. What if every year you're selecting, not the person to go up in the moment, but the person to go next year, so then you're putting them in charge for the year?

So it's like you're picking Grizabella, so she's now next year's choice, and then she's going to pick whoever, and then they're going to run everything for a year. I mean, this monk is going to hate this idea. Yeah, he's furious. He's never getting his time in charge, but that's the next step. Oh my God. We're not actually selecting every year, we're just selecting who's going to lead for a year and then they leave.

[56:01] Gavin Eden: Yeah. Then my brain's getting political and being like, politicians running on a manifesto, and suddenly the cats have got to prepare their manifesto for what they're going to do for the year. Do they stand up to their word? Yeah, and then which one is like, I'm not ready to go, I need another year. There's a lot to it. Yeah, I do like that idea.

[56:24] Gavin Eden: I like Grizabella having, instead of having the family year, she has the year, but also to teach her message that they clearly want the cats to learn. I can get behind that. I'd also say, I would really be interested in seeing your potluck idea. Maybe the audience have an interactive, they select the cat that goes. I don't want to be in that. I want to watch it. I'm too much of a control freak. I'm very happy with improvising small sections, but for there to be a whole different number, I've done research and development dance practices to do with that. I can, but it's not my skill set. I think I'd have a nervous breakdown, but I really like the idea. You know the right people to put me in touch with to make this happen, more so than I do.

There's a new production. They've probably really solidified their ideas by now, but there's a new production going on tour around the UK soon. Maybe we just drop Dreamer Coney a little message. Have you thought about this? Have you thought about doing this, mate? I don't, even one night. I do think the other part to this is there is the group of people want to see cats. You're paying to see cats and you're doing this. There is a version where it's like, I see shows where they do sing-along versions or something where it's a well-documented, different experience for the night or the matinee. That's why, why can't you do it there? Or in a tour, you do it one of the shows of all of them or some variation of that. I'm not saying we've got to change the show forever. It's been successful for 40 plus years for a reason, but there's a world where you can get away with one or two differences.

[58:12] Gavin Eden: Well, I think that I obviously am very biased. I love this show and I love this production with all of my heart. It's looked after me very well for many years. I think that it needs to carry on existing. When I say this word, I mean it with absolute love, like as a museum piece, like it deserves to be preserved. But of course, society, technology, interest, attention spans change. So having other versions that explore different ways of doing it can and should happen. And as you say, there are the diehard fans that would love to, they only want to see the pure version. But times change. Royal Caribbean, you want people to be at the end of that 90 minutes. Exactly. Throughout their voting. That could help people stay in the seats to the end. Maybe that's the argument. Maybe that's the argument. There's a world where this could work.

[59:15] Mike Abrams: Well, this has been super fun. I have wanted to talk to you for many years. I know we've talked about doing this for a while and I'm glad we could finally make it happen. So thank you for coming on and how can people stay in touch with you on whatever cats you have in your future or everything else you're going to do in your career still?

[59:31] Gavin Eden: Thank you very much. I'm delighted to have been here. This has been a lovely trip down memory lane. Probably Instagram is the easiest one to find me on. It's not my name. It was my Japanese nickname and I chose that as my handle before I learned that Instagram was going to be an important part of our jobs. I document what I'm doing and where I'm doing it there.

[1:00:03] Mike Abrams: Amazing. And share a lot of videos of cats.

[1:00:11] Mike Abrams: Well, this has been so fun. So thank you again for coming on. Thank you so much. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown. To catch the next video, to follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of us's podcasts. Follow us on social media at TheWrongCatDied or check our website, thewrongcatdied.com.