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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:13] Speaker 2: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the one good night. I'm the one good night. I welcome

[0:30] Speaker 3: to the Ron cat died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. You know her, and might know her from her time on Broadway as Elphaba in wicked but she was the most recent Grizabella on the US national tour of cats. So welcome Donna favino, and thank you for joining me. Hi. I am excited because I love anytime I get to talk to a Grizabella, since I spent my entire podcast explaining why I don't think she should be the cat to go the Heaviside Layer. But before we get to that argument at the very end, I do want to hear I love hearing about someone like you who has has this long Broadway career, your experience with cats like it's such a show that's been around forever. What was your first introduction to this show before you know you end up as the main character on tour.

[1:19] Speaker 1: I had never seen the show until I got the part. Never. So no, I saw the show for the first time the first week of January of 2020, and then I was in the show the following week. Wow. So yeah, I mean, I did the show for not almost. I did the show for two months. I didn't know I had auditioned for the tour a year, like, back in before it went out in 2019 and so I learned the song memory, but I had never seen the show until I actually had the part.

[1:50] Speaker 3: What is your like? What was your as someone who's, you know, knowledgeable on theater, been in the world for a while, what was your impression of the show? Because, like, as an outsider, I it's something I knew about as, like, it's just a show that exists.

[2:01] Speaker 1: You know, I had heard so much about it, and mostly it kind of had become this joke. I guess it was like, Oh yeah, cats, because it just had been around for so long. And I think even phantom sometimes, you know, it's just one of those things when a show runs for a really long time, people go, oh yeah, cats. Even wicked. Oh yeah, wicked, right. But I did have a couple people who would say to me, I love cats. I think it's great. I know it's like, old and it's been around forever, but I like it. But most people would be like, Oh, cats. I guess cats became sort of like the butt of jokes in like, even, like, if you watch like, I don't know, I feel like you could watch like a show, like 30 rock or even beep, I watched recently, and they make a joke about cats. It's always like the go to musical theater show, if you're going to, like, make a joke about cheesy musicals, you Yeah. Thing is, is that it's not cheesy. It's weird. F, okay, it is a weird show. So when I saw it, I was like, this is weird. This is like, concert, dance light and opera light sometimes, and rock concert light. Like, it's all just sort of a strange little beast, but it's a phenomenon. I mean, it is, yeah,

[3:11] Speaker 3: it really is the butt in a lot of trucks. I was tracking it for a little while, like I saw a modern family episode where one of the characters was Tugger, and then family guy did one where they drove a car into the stage. Oh

[3:22] Speaker 1: yeah, oh yeah. It's always the butt of every joke. It's easy

[3:25] Speaker 3: and it's a polarizing joke, like, you know, show, because it's got people that hate it, people that love it, and then people who are indifferent, but don't know a lot about it, but just

[3:36] Speaker 1: know about it. That was me. I was indifferent. Didn't know anything about it. Really loved this. I thought the song memory was beautiful, but again, that song also memory. But then when I actually had to learn it, I was like, this song is really beautiful, and so, so I really just knew the song. I had had, I had to sing it for with a symphony. Once, I had to sing it for a concert. It was a request, also for a private gig that I did at a private concert at someone's house. So I had, I'd perform a song live three times, and then, and then the audition happened, and I did not do the tour when it opened. And then they called december 26 2019 and said, Do you want to go out and play Grizabella? And I was like, okay, like, for the last six months of the tour, wound up being the last two months of the tour because of COVID, but, and I was like, Okay, I guess I have to see it. What I was blown away by was the dancing. I thought, wow, these kids are incredible. And this shows so hard, like, all the dancing they're doing. And I thought it was pretty amazing. I mean, I do think that to be an ensemble member in cats, you have to be so freaking talented. I mean that I that I do want to say, like, I think it's sort of like a rite of passage for young musical theater dancers, who usually are triple threats because they have to sing too.

[4:51] Speaker 3: Yeah. And as I talk to cast members, it's, it's really clear that it's like they either were passionate about this is something they grew up watching. And they knew about and it's like, kind of the end all be all, or they kind of hated it, but then got the opportunity. I was like, Well, this is such a, you know, huge opportunity, and it's such a beautiful dance numbers and stuff like that, that they kind of have ended that way. Walk me through your first time watching say,

[5:15] Speaker 1: oh, go ahead. Well, being in the show, I think, is more fun than than watching. Watch. That's just my I think being in the shows about however, I said that to someone. I won't say who it is, but he's a very, very well respected theater maker in New York City. And I said that to him, like just last week, and he said, Oh, I love cats. It's sort of my secret thing. I love to I love watching it because it reminds him of when he fell in love with theater. So there's something super nostalgic about it. So now I'm like, You know what? Maybe it is fun to watch. I think for for me, I found, I found I enjoyed myself. It doesn't, didn't change my life. But does theater always have to change your life? No,

[5:59] Speaker 3: no. I mean, and as a someone who just enjoys going to theater and not doesn't know much about any of the stuff that's related to it, it very rarely changes my life. It's more of just like that was really entertaining. I'm glad I go on and move about my day.

[6:17] Speaker 1: That's great. And there's a big place for that. I say as I'm wearing my Hadestown hat, and I watched it three times, and be like, it changed my life. But truthfully, no, it doesn't. It's, it's about, it is a, it is a really entertaining show, and people go nuts for it. Yeah,

[6:32] Speaker 3: it is. What has the fan base is. Is a extreme fan base? Uh huh, the walk me through your first time seeing it, because what you're watching now as a week before you're gonna go on. Did you do you watch that as like a audience member? Or were you watching it more for I need to be ready to perform this

[6:52] Speaker 1: first time I watched it, I decided I'm just gonna watch this as an audience member. I had already been rehearsing in New York for a couple days so, but I like to just let it wash over me. It's hard when like, Isabella comes on stage for me not to be like, Okay, wait, what exactly is she doing? But I knew I'd have the next week or so to just be watching every night if I want to going backstage and watching from the wings. So I knew it. So I just sort of wanted to watch it and let it wash over me. And I really, really enjoyed it. And I was then I was really excited. I was like, Oh, this is gonna be fun. And and then I was also slightly terrified, because I'm like, Oh, I really, I really have to sing the the song, yeah, the song that I've that a lot of people, that's all they want to hear. And I got one shot, because if you're, if you're Elphaba, and you, you know, kind of blow it in your first number, you have like, 20,000 more big numbers to do. You can kind of redeem yourself, whereas, you know, you got memory, babe, and it's like, get out there and do it, and yeah at the end, yeah, yeah. And you gotta so, um, but, but I, but I was really excited to be dressed up. Do the make. I was so excited to do the makeup and do my own makeup, and that's what excited me the most, is like, oh my god, I get the coolest costume. Yeah,

[8:09] Speaker 3: and I mean, it is, like you said, the number of people go to see, or a lot of people go to see, although I've really broken down the show, I think there's a lot more that that people actually end up either they enjoy or not knowing,

[8:22] Speaker 1: but they do. But I feel like vocally, that's the song where they're expecting, like, Great vocals, a great solo vocal. And it's, uh, it, it can be a little, I didn't allow myself to feel a pressure, but it could be pressure. If you're not careful, you could be like, Oh, my God, oh my god. It's the one song. But it's like, no, there's a lot of other things. Like, it's not all about Grizabella, even though she thinks it is. Yeah, we'll get to that later. So

[8:50] Speaker 1: oh, gosh, yes, I was. It was me and four other people that were going into the show with me that we all been rehearsing. And they were my four kittens, because they're all, they were all probably about, you know, 10 to 15 years younger than me, you know, all coming, you know, right at a college, coming into the show and, and so I remember I took a picture. I said, mama and her kittens. And yes, of course, we were all sober. We had, we had a rehearsed and rehearsing that day, and then we're going to see it that night. So, yeah, I

[9:17] Speaker 3: was sober the first time sober ish, the second time

[9:21] Speaker 1: I've only seen it sober. Should I watch the film? Not sober or something? So I haven't seen it yet. Which I was

[9:27] Speaker 3: gonna ask, have you seen the most recent film? Or

[9:32] Speaker 1: I never saw the 98 but I did see a clip of Alan page doing remark the cat and I love her. I love her. So I was just like, Oh, cool. And I saw that was it. I saw that actually randomly a couple years before I auditioned for cat, so I had just seen it, like a clip in something, and I was like, Alan page, cool, fierce, I forgot she was Grizabella. That was it. However, I have not seen the movie yet. I'm sort of waiting to figure. Out the best way to do that. So

[10:01] Speaker 3: I was that was gonna be one of my questions. Because, you see, you started, like, right after it came out,

[10:05] Speaker 1: no, and it was really great for our ticket sales. But oh well, yeah, it actually helped the ticket sales immensely. I'm sure. Because

[10:12] Speaker 3: it was a my the movie was a decision is kind of the best way to just

[10:21] Speaker 1: the movie was not a box office success. However, people who love cats, it made them want to go see our show. Because they're like, yeah, no, I need to go see cats. And this is not what

[10:33] Speaker 1: Probably, I, I'm gonna, I think I'm gonna watch the movie this weekend. Now you've got me,

[10:38] Speaker 3: I think you should watch it. I'd be very curious to see as like, there's, there's a lot of choices that, if you're familiar with the show, like, the right the stage version, you're some, you're like, I'm not sure I feel about that, and others, I think, like, The Purists are going to have very strong opinions on it, but are just also happy to see it go almost a little bit mainstream. Yeah, I think it's for anyone who doesn't have any idea about the show. It's a fairly like they added an extra song. They tried to make a storyline out of it. It's a little confusing to begin with, because the show is confusing to begin with. Yeah, it is. The movie didn't help, but it's interesting now, because now that we're multiple months removed from it, I mean, over a year removed from it, the main people have distanced themselves from the movie, and so it's kind of, I think it has a Rocky Horror Picture. Second Life coming,

[11:33] Speaker 3: So I kind of love the beauty of like, never saw it until you're about to go perform it. No like surface level and still haven't seen a lot of the other things. So what were you told like? Because you had to have been given some backstory then of how to play Grizabella.

[11:49] Speaker 1: First, first day of rehearsal, I had to sit in a room with with someone who sat down with with a notebook and opened it up and talked to me for 45 minutes about the history of the show cats. Web show was really helpful to get all of that sort of like the speech, the history of cats, how it all came to be, and then what, every single scene, what is actually happening, where Grizabella fits in, all of these things. So I got 40 minutes on it, which I think is super important, because I would have been. And when I said, I've never seen it, they were like, great. They actually loved that. I think that I didn't have any preconceived notions, because I could kind of come at it and they could be like, great, a blank slate. We'll just tell her, you know, yeah, it's

[12:32] Speaker 3: gonna, it's gonna be helpful. I i would love to see that notebook, because I've been trying to figure it out myself as a someone who enjoys a story writing, piece of it, like my analysis has been on the plot, not anything else. Because,

[12:45] Speaker 1: great, great. Well, you know, the thing is, is that they tell you things, but then they also, there's also some mystery, also that they leave. And we all have our own theories about, you know, who, even like, you know, who I think I'm Victoria's mother, possibly, you know, I do too. Come on, let's,

[13:04] Speaker 3: let's go into who, like, what do they tell you? What are your theories? I can tell you some of mine. I have a couple.

[13:10] Speaker 1: Deuteronomy is, like, he's shady. I mean, I think he's father and all those kittens, yeah, like, something's up with him. I know he's so good, he's, he's, he's the leader of a cult,

[13:22] Speaker 3: and he's gonna murder one. Yeah, I'm a sec, I'm a sacrifice.

[13:36] Speaker 1: it's about a cult, I think a Jellicle cult. It's the vow on HBO. It's Keith Ryan. Me.

[13:43] Speaker 3: It is the joke. Okay, so you think Old Deuteronomy is the Father for most everybody, pretty much him and mccavity. I think they're brothers, and they just are the fathers for oh, yeah,

[13:53] Speaker 1: yeah. Well, yeah, maybe mccavity is trying to save everybody, and he's all misunderstood. Oh, that's

[14:02] Speaker 1: think so. I don't think so. No, mccavity is, you know, so you're, he's hungry. I like

[14:07] Speaker 3: Victoria. I think Victoria is very likely your daughter. That seems possible, although there's something

[14:12] Speaker 1: or, or I'm sort of, like, obsessed with. I mean, all I do in Act One is watch her. I mean, I come out during the Jellicle Ball and there, and I know that, like, I mirror her choreography at one point. And I'm like, why am I mirroring her? Do I want to be just like her again? No, I'm remembering when I was young. But I'm like, but what if I'm watching her because she's my kitten? I don't know. I think that's

[14:35] Speaker 3: possible. I think it's also the she is. You like, she's the I was, I used to you were beautiful, Victoria, and so now you're reminiscing of past lives. What do you think happens to Grizabella when you left the tribe? Like, do they give you any break of like, because you're coming back to the tribe, they tell you nothing about what

[14:54] Speaker 1: happened? Oh, well, I think, you know, I think that she, well, she went off with macabre. Be, you know, and, and I think whatever you know, and I think she became, like,

[15:05] Speaker 1: sex worker for him, a sex worker, yeah, it's because I can't say prostitute now. But I mean, I think she was selling herself for him and, and she's coming back because she's like, she needs, she needs that community again, right? Nicole, yeah. And I know that, like, Demeter had some issues with Macavity, like she's all whacked out relationship, yeah, she's all whacked out with him and, and who's the bomb, but does not like Chris bell at all, but

[15:41] Speaker 3: she's the older sister of Demeter and is protected of her. And I think, yeah, but your daughter,

[15:48] Speaker 1: no, I don't know. I mean, I was told once that, like, bomb, better watch out, or she's gonna go the way of Grizabella. She's very, very like, kind of full of herself, and thinks she's fabulous. And she was with Macavity also, but, you know, is able to come out of it, and it's sort of and she might, I don't know it was. It's very confusing, but I just know that, like Roosevelt, kind of, like, was seduced by Macavity, like, went off with him. He basically used her and abused her, and now she's basically been this stray cat kind of like demeanor.

[16:20] Speaker 3: On the next version, there's a rumor that bomb and Demeter are both your kittens, and you abandon them, and Demeter is following your path, and bomb got away from it and is resentful of you for that. It

[16:31] Speaker 1: is possible they're my kittens, because if you look at the baby Grizz, which I had to do in the first it kind of looks like them. Yeah. Coloring is very similar.

[16:45] Speaker 1: Grizz like it was not explained to me. They told me, like, No, you're just another cat. You're not baby Grizz. But the truth is, is that there have been productions where they call it baby Grizz. I think, honestly, it's just for the tour. They're like, we need another dancer body out there in the opening number.

[16:59] Speaker 3: That's Peter too. That's where Peter comes from, because that's bus Gus. They need another dancer. However,

[17:05] Speaker 1: it has, she has been called Baby Grizz, and she does kind of resemble, I mean, she's just, they're like, you're just a cat, you're just a cat. You're not baby girls, you're just a cat. Okay? And of course, it's

[17:14] Speaker 3: my rumor then, which is that this is all a it is all a cycle. And each night, Grizabella dies, and she gets reincarnated to baby graze and baby, it's like

[17:27] Speaker 1: Groundhog Day meets cats. Yeah, I like that. If I ever, yeah, no, it's fun. If I ever do this show again, I think I'll do that, because it kind of feels that way when you do a show over and over. So I really, yeah, yeah, the baby

[17:41] Speaker 3: Grizz is just something that doesn't, is not explained. And the fact that it's like, it's out there is another weird, weird piece.

[17:48] Speaker 1: It's a strange little thing, yep. What about the

[17:54] Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I see jelly, jelly, I think, has sort of become like this, like she became like this, the surrogate mother to all the kittens I abandoned. I She, I think she really hates me because I abandoned these kittens. I mean, she's definitely super maternal, and I think she can't fathom the fact that I, like, abandoned my kittens and went off of my cavity. So

[18:17] Speaker 3: there's a little bit of a rumor that you two were best friends. Maybe I made this up. I can't at this point. I can't differentiate rumors I made up and what our actual truth anymore. But I really thought there was a love triangle between bus for Jones, Joey Alan, and you as Grizabella, because Grizabella and jelly Alan were friends growing up, bus for Jones was also potentially one of the lovers of the two of them. It's

[18:43] Speaker 1: possible. I mean, Grizabella wasn't very discerning. I don't think,

[18:47] Speaker 3: yeah, yeah. It seems like Grizabella is tied. It seems like every older cat is tied to every older cat, and every kid is tied to every kitten, and every kitten is is a son or daughter of every older cat, except for one which I did find a rumor that one was adopted, which makes no sense to me, who's adopted? Oh, I do not remember. Is it Alan? So now was I can find it because it was somebody in that talked about the Cassandra. It was one of skimble shanks. Is children's so let's see if I can find it in my notes here, corbel cat, yeah, is that his skimble Shanks, adopted son. Oh, isn't

[19:34] Speaker 1: Those are the twins. Yeah, the twins are crazy. Man, the twins are like Alien cats. Man, they have like, Spidey sense. Yeah, I've

[19:39] Speaker 3: learned a lot more about them recently, pretty creepy, but they have the sixth sense, like they know everything before it happens. It sounds they

[19:47] Speaker 1: do, yeah. They're the ones who always spot Chris a Bella lurking. They're always like, yeah. They like

[20:01] Speaker 1: he's so righteous and He's so annoying. He's always the one like going,

[20:04] Speaker 3: he's he's trying to be the next old dude, yeah, oh, he's joke supposed to you love and hate,

[20:12] Speaker 1: I love Victoria. I think she's sweet. And

[20:16] Speaker 3: about Mongo, Jerry and ripple teaser, they're

[20:19] Speaker 1: fun. I mean, they're harmless, really, I don't I think Roosevelt is just like, whatever they're like, alley cats, whatever they're like, they're the ones that

[20:29] Speaker 1: they're, they're just mischievous. They're not like, you know, what? About

[20:40] Speaker 1: God, he's so in the closet. That's what I think of Tugger. That

[20:44] Speaker 3: is 90% of the fan fiction is, of course,

[20:48] Speaker 1: because he doesn't look at me the right way. I know grizzabella knows back in the day, tug never really. I think Tugger is, you know, fabulous. That's what I think of Tugger.

[21:04] Speaker 1: I don't know. Mustafa, I don't know. Mr. Police seems so asexual to me. Interesting. Yeah, Mr. Police is, like, magical and like kind of but, you know, you Tugger might have a crush on most athletes, but maybe, you know, maybe they are an item, yeah, but Tugger does have a lot of sexual energy, but I don't get sexual energy off of my stuff, please, at all.

[21:28] Speaker 3: So if you want to, but they'd be cute. They'd be super cute. If you want to waste some time, go to the fan fiction websites, and it's almost all Tugger and most awfully, fan fiction.

[21:43] Speaker 3: I want you to watch. I'm curious if your opinion will change if you watch and not the whole movie, because that's two hours, two hours and 20 minutes of time on the 1998 movie that I don't feel like you're going to need to watch. But on YouTube are the clips of the of the numbers which do come from that movie. I want you to watch most of these. Okay? And I, I would be curious if you still think he's asexual, because there's like,

[22:12] Speaker 3: usually they, they built in a lot of like, like rainbows and lightnings and all kinds of stuff, to where it does feel very like it's very clear that he's very much

[22:23] Speaker 1: out of the closet. Oh, maybe he's coming out. That's a number coming out. Yeah? Maybe I don't know. I just know that. Like, that's the cat that my son's always drawing pictures of, because all the little children love. So

[22:37] Speaker 3: that's the kid's number, yeah, but dad's number is Macavity, the mom's number is Tugger,

[22:50] Speaker 1: for parents. It's for gram it's for, I think it's also for people that like love theater, diva stuff. I think it's not just Grampa. I think that's for there's a No it's also for the theater buffs. I think so,

[23:07] Speaker 3: now that you've been in the show, you know a lot more. What would be your if you were going to talk to somebody who was like you hadn't seen it, just knows a little bit of it. How would you explain the plot to somebody.

[23:21] Speaker 1: Bunch of cats are in a junkyard competing for the opportunity to be reborn. They want to be born again, and

[23:36] Speaker 1: they're all in a competition to be chosen to to to well, to be reborn. And

[23:47] Speaker 3: then there's just a giant orgy in the middle, yep and yep.

[23:52] Speaker 1: And it's a calm and the moon is full. So they probably do it about once a month. I think,

[23:59] Speaker 1: kill people once a month. I don't think they kill her. I think she's dying.

[24:05] Speaker 3: So okay, so I guess it just depends. So a monthly ritual, the ball happens monthly.

[24:11] Speaker 1: I don't know. They don't say how often it happens, but the moon is full, so I feel like it happens when the moon happens

[24:20] Speaker 1: eight times a week. Yeah, isn't how many shows. Well, I didn't do for 45 years,

[24:27] Speaker 1: years. Yeah, so I don't know

[24:30] Speaker 3: you're gonna run out of cats pretty quickly. Yeah,

[24:34] Speaker 1: but they cats, pretty cats, yeah, yeah. But I don't think maybe it's, maybe it's once a year. Maybe it's once a year. The moon has to be full, though sounds full.

[24:45] Speaker 3: I maybe I just, I don't know. Maybe I just assumed it was once a year. It just felt like a annual tradition of a sacrifice

[24:55] Speaker 1: for the betterment of the tribe, right? But they all want to be sacrificed. Which

[25:00] Speaker 3: is, again, why this show is so dark. It's a cult,

[25:03] Speaker 1: but she's actually dying. She's like, please put me out of

[25:06] Speaker 3: my misery. Gus, won't you argue that for Gus, you want Gus to go? Well, I interpret this show completely different, which I'm happy to explain why. But the most common argument anti Grizzle is Gus,

[25:19] Speaker 1: sure, sure. He seems worthy, actually, because he

[25:24] Speaker 3: seems almost more worthy. He's been in the cult long. He's been staying with the cult. He didn't leave the cult to go do

[25:34] Speaker 3: rewarded. Yeah, I watched it for a totally different view. I saw the revival, and I saw it as a X Factor, because I saw with an X factor character, right or cast number, and I thought, let's just pick the best number. I'm not gonna think anything else besides this, of who's worthy, or any plot line or any story. And then I thought, in the X Factor, they have a very long history of combining, you know, two soloists into a group like Fifth Harmony, and who was the boy band? One that they did, one direction, both came from X Factor individualists. So I want to grab my stuff, please, together. That would be my vote. Those are the two numbers that I was like show stoppers for me. And so I vote. I wanted

[26:21] Speaker 1: two of them to go together little Burton or, well, they, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let you know that, um, they don't let you vote. But wouldn't that be fun if you could vote from your seat and then whoever goes up there on the tire? Wouldn't that be great? Like, I should, I should write them and be like, This is what you're gonna do. There will be a an Old Deuteronomy after memory. And now please at your seats, please take out your devices, your phone, and then everybody votes. And then whoever gets it, they just go up on the tire. And we want that

[26:51] Speaker 3: suit goes in the tire. I love it. And Old Deuteronomy just has a big X, so he didn't like, you know, he's like, I'm tired of Mungo Jerry ripple teaser. He hits a big x, and we just go the next song.

[27:05] Speaker 3: This is why I don't work in theater, right? Because I don't think that would work.

[27:09] Speaker 1: No, I don't think so either. But I do

[27:13] Speaker 3: really enjoy. I did enjoy the show. I was I was mesmerized. I had no idea what's happening.

[27:19] Speaker 1: It's a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun. But if you're looking for a great prop plotline or it's not there, it's poem. It's a book of poems, you know.

[27:28] Speaker 3: And the the last poem was not in the book because it was too dark for his for TS Eliot

[27:35] Speaker 1: Grizabella, you know, the story of how she came to be, because she wasn't even in the show. And then it's a separate poem. It was scrolled on a piece of paper that he never played the book, because the book was for children. And it was like, Grizabella the glamor cat. And it was like, and he had all these notes on her, and they were like, oh, and they're and they're like, this is what we need. We got to put this character in the widow, the widow Elliot. The widow Elliot had, like, here, she's like, here, she's like, here, you can have notes. Here they go, here they are. And they're like, What is this Grizzle of the glamor gap? But

[28:05] Speaker 3: I love that. That's the arc of the story. It's like, because I've argued that I don't think kids should see the show, and people have kind of talked me more into why it's okay, because it goes over their head. But as I've learned about the plot and then, know that the story, the poem that we're gonna that we're not going to be using is aggressively dark, and even TS Eliot was like, This is too much for my children's book. It's the center of the story. I

[28:31] Speaker 3: is it like belting out an iconic song? I mean, you do in Wicked too, but like in memory every night.

[28:40] Speaker 1: No, it's different in cats, because it's one song, and so it's quite special, and I miss it a lot. I really, really, really loved playing versabella. I didn't realize how much I was going to love it. I used to cry when I would get when I would fly, not because I was scared. I love flying, but like in the revival, it's not just the tire that goes up like she also comes off of a harness and flies in the air. And I would cry, because it was just like this release. It was so much fun. I would just I, I loved it. I loved doing that show. I wish I could do it again,

[29:11] Speaker 3: maybe, maybe in a second life. Yeah, exactly.

[29:15] Speaker 1: I have nine of them. Yeah. I would love it. It was, oh, it was a blast. I mean, it'll come back. There's no way, yeah, but it's coming back non union, so Yeah, for now, you know, yeah, but then they'll be like, Oh, you're too old. So who knows. Although she can, she can be pretty old. That's the thing about grizzabel. You can go any age. Doesn't really matter. It's cat makeup. And if you can sing the song, can sing the song. But it was, it was so much fun to do it. I just wanted a little more time.

[29:41] Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. What's I really want to because I find so much fun in trying to make these cats into other people. I want to figure out which wicked characters would be which cats. Okay. Do you have any thoughts I have? So let's start with Elphaba.

[29:59] Speaker 1: I. Think she has to be Grizabella. You know, she's sort of the outcast and, okay, yeah, it has to go on the cavity. No, no, because Elphaba is still, like, because what? Because the magic and all that,

[30:12] Speaker 3: yeah, antagonist, I think, is probably the main reason, yeah, but, but,

[30:16] Speaker 1: but Elphaba is also the protagonist. Yeah, that's true. So, yeah, speakers about has to

[30:28] Speaker 3: Jenny. Jenny. Okay, I thought it was Jenny or jelly, one of the two, yeah, but I think it's Jenny because

[30:33] Speaker 1: that the tap number and the cutesyness. I think I find that very Glinda,

[30:38] Speaker 3: you know, except for the cockroaches and, like, that whole piece of this that's not

[30:44] Speaker 1: very common, so weird. It's so weird, yeah, yeah, um, but jelly is an elder cat. And I don't, I don't necessarily see Glenda as, like, an elder you know,

[30:53] Speaker 3: that's true. I guess the there are very clear lines in cats of, like, adult, yeah, some type in the middle and very, very young,

[31:02] Speaker 1: yeah, like, Bomb is in the middle somewhere. And then, yeah, yeah,

[31:09] Speaker 1: I guess that's old dude, right? Strings, yeah, yeah. But you're missing, like, Bach would definitely be like, Mungo Jerry, like, that little you know? Oh, it's mongodary, you know? Yeah, I feel like jelly could be nessa because, like, she's so uptight. I don't know jelly so mean to Grizabella. I see everything through the eyes of Grizz. So can't

[31:42] Speaker 3: my theory is the love triangle with jelly and busted for Jones,

[31:45] Speaker 1: yeah, but the jelly that I worked with told me that she thinks it's because I abandoned my kittens and jelly so maternal. She can't imagine because jelly, yeah, how could you kittens? That's

[31:56] Speaker 3: probably way more logical. I wrote and I thought, and I definitely know I'm the only one that's made up this theory, or I've not heard anybody else, sure, sure. I think jelly and Grizz were like best friends growing up, uh huh. I think Joe and bustafer were together. And I think,

[32:16] Speaker 1: like, with, you know what, I kind of like your theory better, and

[32:20] Speaker 3: that's why they come back, and that also is why she's Joey does so much with Gus, because those two are actually the same person, but they're tied together a little bit in some way that I can't figure out, but I think that that's that is the it's a love triangle, and she still is resentful that, that basically, she cheated on her best friend, cheated with her boyfriend.

[32:40] Speaker 1: You know what? I like it, and I'm taking that I'm to, I think that's the better choice. My goal

[32:44] Speaker 3: is, whenever cats comes back, is to have influenced the plot line, just with all these things, Groundhogs Day. Yeah,

[32:54] Speaker 1: you have some really, I think, I think, I think you have some very exciting theories. I like them. This is what

[32:58] Speaker 3: happens when you know nothing about dancing or singing, and all you do is think about the plot, and you record or

[33:03] Speaker 1: lack thereof, and you have to plot, we start to pick

[33:07] Speaker 3: up these really random connections. And then I've had a lot of you know, cast members fill in some other things I never would have picked up. Like, sure, I don't think I would have known anything about the twins in my two viewings of the show. But now twins are freaky.

[33:21] Speaker 1: Grizabella is afraid of those twins. Let me tell you something. Twins are there's

[33:26] Speaker 3: a lot you can do with that plot. I feel like there's more that could that, like we could have written with the plot, with the twins.

[33:31] Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, the twins. You ever there was this movie Minority Report, and it was about like, that's what they remind me of. They even have like those. Anyway, what do you think Cassandra's doing there. Like, why is she in a junkyard? She's like, an expensive, like, you know, Egyptian kind of cat. Like, what the heck is she doing there? So

[33:50] Speaker 3: I have two theories on it. And again, I did spend most of my time on the main cats, like the singing, the ones, like the main songs are about, so all the other secondary ones, and they're not secondary, they're just, by any means, they're just the ones that don't have as much given to, like, anchor off of

[34:07] Speaker 1: but then she has, she goes out there and gets lit up, like misto police, is she, like their fabulous friend, because she's so gorgeous, like, that's what I

[34:16] Speaker 3: think. I think the the easy answer is, I need another dancer,

[34:24] Speaker 3: I think the my kind of belief is that, to your point, it is a cult, and there are a couple of the cult members that have that have collars, so they're clearly from some family. There's a couple that are very much strays. In the beginning of the more recent movie. It's like Victoria gets thrown from like a bag of humans, like, into the junkyard. So I think she could just be one that, like, maybe leaves her really high end home to come and hang out and is addicted,

[34:54] Speaker 1: like the lady in the tramp thing. You're right. She she ran away. She

[35:02] Speaker 1: to be kept but if Mustafa Lees and your the fan fiction theory, if Mr. Police and Tugger are a couple, and then, and, yeah, you're right, everything's lighting up, and it's like, it's like, fabulous, yeah, Cassandra, you know, is like their beautiful friend that they hang with, because, you know, so I think, I think that kind of works. I think

[35:25] Speaker 3: I really think that they might be, I mean, there's so many dotted lines, if you try to figure out the cat's family tree, that I think they might just all be together like, I think it's a very open

[35:36] Speaker 1: cult. Well, just go to the Jellicle Ball and you'll see, you

[35:39] Speaker 3: literally see it. They you roll on top of each other. It's insane. They're in the wall. Yes, that's why I don't think kids should be there. It's very clearly an orgy.

[35:47] Speaker 1: It's extremely sexual in the Victoria, when she's like, shaking and she's like, losing her cat virginity, yes,

[36:01] Speaker 3: So, yeah, I mean, it's

[36:07] Speaker 3: was a sex worker who comes back to be murdered. Like, if you break it down in certain ways, it's a very dark story,

[36:17] Speaker 1: yes, but the ultimate gift that that's, that's why he's such a cult leader. I'll do is such a cold there, because the ultimate gift is like, if, oh gosh, if he gets to kill me. Like, you know what the heavy side layer is? It's, there's a fence, and it's a big of bones. The Boneyard back there, he just tossed them over. I don't think there's, that's it.

[36:37] Speaker 3: There's a rumor that in the winter garden, it's actually just the attic, and that's like, Isabelle goes up, and that's actually the heavy side later, yeah, it's not being reborn. So you just get stuck in

[36:47] Speaker 1: eternity. You get stuck in the Winter Garden Theater, yeah, or up in the attic,

[36:51] Speaker 3: yeah, to, like, haunt, whatever show comes there next. Ooh. Well, anything is possible. There's basically 10 different ways to write cats too, and cats too. I thought a little bit about a couple of them, but I'm not, again, not qualified to write this because I couldn't, couldn't write a dance number or a song or anything

[37:10] Speaker 1: related. Old dude needs to sacrifice a cat every year. Otherwise he doesn't keep living like I think that he like. It's what's keeping him alive when's his turn. I don't that's why he keeps sacrificing. I don't think monk wants to take kill him off. Monk wants him out. Monk wants him gone, yeah? Monk never tries to, like, go to the heavy side layer. Monk's trying to like,

[37:30] Speaker 3: he wants old dudes role. He wants, he wants to be able to control the X,

[37:36] Speaker 1: yeah. But he always wants Grizz out. He keeps her out until dudes like, Come on, let her, let her speak, slash, sing, come on. It's true, always monk. No, it's always monk. I mean, I was taught that, like, it's monk who's literally blocking you from getting to do he's always literally, he does this in remarks.

[37:54] Speaker 3: If he's his, there's, doesn't seem like there's a rationale for that.

[37:58] Speaker 1: He really hates me. But monk thinks that, like I was with him, I'm like, Absolutely not. I wouldn't touch that. Like, that's what I was telling

[38:04] Speaker 3: Okay, so monk thinks that you had a past relationship and you don't, well,

[38:09] Speaker 1: I don't know the guy playing monk told me that he's like, I think Grizz and monk were to get I'm like, No, she hasn't been with everyone. Like, she does have standards. That's,

[38:16] Speaker 3: that's the problem is Everyone just assumes Grizz has been with everybody. That's, I

[38:19] Speaker 1: know it's terrible, and maybe she has, but I think she actually rejected monk and that he can't stand it. He's like, you'll be with anything, you'll be with anything, and you wouldn't be with me.

[38:30] Speaker 3: So it's important that you are chosen, because if he takes over from Old Deuteronomy, you're never getting picked,

[38:36] Speaker 1: ever. Like I He's got it. It's like, Now or never, because old dude might he might die, I guess.

[38:45] Speaker 3: Let's do a couple quick rapid fires about the show. And I hope you kind of answered some of them, but I want to know if you and I love saying suspend reality. So no male female, forget vocal range. Dance numbers. If you could play any cat, which one would you want to play, and I'll say non Grizabella. Oh,

[39:03] Speaker 1: it'd be fun to play Victoria. Victoria. I would love to be able to dance that. And know what that feels like? Yeah, that's, that's

[39:10] Speaker 3: why I always love asking this question, because I can't do any of it. So I'm always like, I would love to be able to belt one day. Yeah, right. Feels like, yeah. What about favorite and least favorite cat. My

[39:23] Speaker 1: least favorite cat is monk, you know that I just think he's such a jerk, um, and my favorite, you know, it would kind of change, but like, when I was when I first saw the show, I loved like that, only, like, a year ago, isn't that crazy, but when I first saw the show, I loved Demeter. And I still think she might be my favorite cat. She's nuts. She is so cracked out. She's the cat that's pear is always standing up. She's freaking crazy. She is literally suffering from PTSD, OCD, all of it she needs, like some. Zoloft stat, I like Demeter. She's my favorite cat, which

[40:03] Speaker 3: is what makes it wild. When you think about that number like that number is very sexually aggressive. It is all about cavity. Oh, my God, you've got the two cats. That one is clearly still trying to go through things, and the other one is processed it, and they're both still gonna sing it the same way,

[40:22] Speaker 1: I know, and but then mccavity, well, Demeter, you know, saves old dude by realizing that Macavity is pretending to be old dude. It was, it's Demeter that does it. And she jumps on, yeah, she does it. So, so her her anxiety is great. But just the cavity, the cavity, the cavity

[40:44] Speaker 3: it is. It's become my favorite part of the show, because it's, it's just like, as you watch it, it's just kind of really funny to me to watch that scene and then also be,

[40:55] Speaker 1: I would always be watching from the wings on the monitor, because I was going to come on fairly soon after that, and I would be like, get him. I What would I say if I get him? Get a monk? Like, I was just like, knowing how it's gonna end, I feel like they could have dragged out the fight even longer. I wanted a longer cat fight. I wanted more and like, I just, I don't know. I love I like that scene too. It's cool. Mechanics, scary. Yeah?

[41:27] Speaker 1: um, I think it might be Macavity. I think it's the cavity. You know, we were just talking about it, but it just is. It's a cool song. Yeah, it's really cool song. If

[41:38] Speaker 3: you got stuck quarantined with one of the cats. Who are you going to be? Who are you going to be stuck with? Who would you want to be stuck

[41:46] Speaker 1: with? Okay, as me, Donna, or if I was Chris, Bella, stuck with the cat? Oh, I would love

[41:49] Speaker 3: to hear both. I've been asking more, as you, Donna, but I would love, I

[41:54] Speaker 1: think, I think it would be I think, I think, let's see. Well, if I want to party, Tugger might be fun, but if, but if, if I wanted to just like, hang out and chill, it would be jelly, for sure. She seems really nice and sweet, but Grizz couldn't have that, you know,

[42:13] Speaker 3: I don't, because there's still the tension between your love triangle. I know I feel

[42:19] Speaker 1: like Grizz could hang out with Demeter, because I feel like they'd be like, Honey, me too. Meet hashtag, me too. A lot of wine, a lot of a lot of wine, and a hashtag me too, and just going on about Macavity. Yeah,

[42:33] Speaker 3: I I've answered this differently every time, depending on, like, what I feel like I'm looking for in the quarantine. Like, if I want to just have someone, hey, take care of everything. It's like, oh, Joey will just, like, cook all the meals and absolutely keep the house clean. I've leaned towards bustafer Because I think he's gonna have a mansion, and he's not gonna be there, and this fridge is gonna be stocked at all times you love,

[42:53] Speaker 1: but you, yeah, yeah. You like, bust a fur and Gus Gus is actually Gus Gus and jelly. Like, I'd love to, like, go over to their house, like, like, Gus and jelly be fun to hang out with. I think, yeah, she'll make a meal. He'll tell stories.

[43:09] Speaker 3: You know, as an audience member, it was mango, Jerry, Rumble, teaser and Tiger misophys Were the ones I was just like, and I think mostly because it was just the the it was, they were super fun, and the dancing is just

[43:19] Speaker 1: things. Oh, it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, as a me,

[43:23] Speaker 3: personality wise, I'm like, Yeah, you know, I'm a little bit more reserved. Let me have the guys who just gonna hang out and eat in the suburbs.

[43:31] Speaker 1: If we weren't in quarantine, I'd go out for a night on the town with Tugger because, you know, he'd like, know, all the great spots to go, and it was fun, and he won all the attention anyway, so I wouldn't have to worry about being too social. He'll just take care of it. That's true. Like quarantine maybe, you know, hanging out with jelly, I feel like she'd have great like tea and scones, and we could just hang out and

[43:50] Speaker 3: talk. Yeah, I feel like she, she's one that's probably underrepresented this. I feel like, you the question, ones that are the now, I kind of want to hang out with the twins. I feel like I would learn some like, they would teach me some things. Like, I like, I feel

[44:01] Speaker 1: like I need the twins in a Ouija board or something. Yeah, I

[44:05] Speaker 3: feel like the ring twins or whatever. Like, the, what's that horror movie? Like, that's what's gonna happen is, yeah, you're gonna be walking in the hallway and they're gonna just, like, lights flicker, and they're gonna be in front of

[44:15] Speaker 1: you. They're, they're, they're really creepy, but kind of fast you can't stop looking at them. I love the twins. I used to watch them a lot when I was, like, skulking around the junkyard. You kind of have to, because they're watching you. It seems like, Well, exactly I would always make sure.

[44:29] Speaker 3: Yeah, all right. Million dollar question. I've argued that I don't think Roosevelt is the right choice. Yes. Do you agree or disagree? Um, disagree. Who would you choose?

[44:42] Speaker 1: I i I think she's the right choice, because I think that Old Deuteronomy is trying to teach them all that you have to forgive and you have to like you know that you have to forgive. So I think that like he's he. He's teaching them all a lesson now. With that said, if I couldn't pick risbella, I suppose it should be Gus. I mean, I just don't understand why the little ones want to go. Like, why are the twins trying to not the twins the rum like, like, Mungo Jerry and rumble teaser. Why do they want to go? They shouldn't want to go. Some

[45:22] Speaker 3: of it is, if the argument that I've heard that's makes the most sense is that they actually don't want to go. But it's almost like a little bit of a practice round before when they do want to go, they get a little bit of like, Hey, here's my time to shine and tell my story. And also the attention of like, it's fun to still go. I almost related. This is probably really bad analogy, but it's a little bit of like the the people in the bachelor who probably don't really want to actually get married, but they want the influencers, like, don't become an influencer. They need the numbers. They need those Instagram followers, and so they're going on the show with no intention of winning, right? That's, I think, the man Bucha,

[45:58] Speaker 1: yeah, I say same with Tugger. I don't think he really wants to go,

[46:02] Speaker 3: No, same thing. No. I mean, Tugger is the one that they in. The Bachelor has like, an entire story arc of some craziness just to get screen time.

[46:11] Speaker 1: I guess, I guess, I guess, I'm gonna say bus different Jones needs to go, really, I don't think it's made an argument for him. Yeah, he's taken up too many of the resources in the junkyard.

[46:26] Speaker 3: That's the best argument I've heard. He's eating all the food. He's taking

[46:30] Speaker 1: up too many resources. Yeah, he's really bad for the environment. Yeah, his carbon paw print is huge.

[46:40] Speaker 3: Yes, that is, I think that's, that's a strong argument.

[46:47] Speaker 3: utilitarianism, like, what's, this is the greatest good for the rest of

[46:50] Speaker 1: the drive. That's right. I think it's the utilitarian answer. Oops. I like it. I like anything. Well, first

[46:56] Speaker 3: of all, I like anything that's not Grizabella, any argument that's made that's not crazy about I love, yeah, I

[47:02] Speaker 1: mean, I have to argue for her because I played her. But wouldn't it be great if he's like, Busta for you got to go because, you know, it's, it's just enough. He really is. He's He's greedy, he's a glass so I

[47:15] Speaker 3: that might be my new answer for is the busifer is the one to go, because he's just, he's just a strain on the economy

[47:27] Speaker 1: in the junkyard. He's just, yeah, that is

[47:31] Speaker 3: amazing. How can we find you on social media and see all these amazing things you're doing? You

[47:37] Speaker 1: can find me at Donna Vivino on Instagram or Tiktok I've recently joined. I've been throwing up that sounds weird, but I've been putting up some of my some parody videos. I do them all the time on my own, but I rarely will post them. And I started posting them, and I like to be kind of silly and ridiculous, so find me on there. Maybe I'll parody memory. At some point we'll see

[48:01] Speaker 3: parody. Oh yeah, some ideas here,

[48:05] Speaker 1: yes, yes, yes. So that would be really fun. But yeah, even I even make a reference to memory, I did a parody recently. I put it up on Monday of she used to be mine from waitress, and it's called, she used to be blonde, and there's a section of it where I say I'd give anything to belt out a memory or two. I just got a text from someone today saying, wait a minute. I just figured out that that line was a, was a, was a. I said it was a little gentle nod to my time at cats, but I didn't want to say. I was like, should I say belt out a memory or two? Because I was in cats, and I was like, No, but you know what? I'm not gonna spell it out for everyone. Yeah, cats fans will get it. Carrots fans are smart, so you've got

[48:44] Speaker 3: it. You know, some the best jokes are the ones where it doesn't have to be so obvious. And it's like, the I bet you that text and that friend, when they hit it, they're like, Oh, that was good. And then you were super proud when you got that text, because it's like, someone recognized that that, yeah, yeah.

[49:00] Speaker 1: He was like, it was like, my second listen. And I was like, Wait a minute. Oh, my goodness. I'm like, oh yeah.

[49:05] Speaker 3: Love it. Absolutely love it. Well, thank you so much for being on here. This was super fun. I love that. There's now a buster for argument that lives in the the podcast and ether of cats,

[49:18] Speaker 1: yes, yes. And I hope I have some people that will agree with me, because I would have voted him off the island. And that's and, you know, because it is very survivor, isn't it?

[49:27] Speaker 3: Survivor? It's every, it's every reality TV show I've ever seen combined into cats

[49:32] Speaker 1: is a reality TV show. You're right. It is the X factor

[49:35] Speaker 3: with a little bachelor now a little survivor. We're, we're again, cats, too, has a lot of

[49:41] Speaker 1: options. It would be really great if the audiences could vote who's going to the heavy side layer. That would be a whole new twist. I would love that. That's interactive theater. Interactive theater. We're

[49:51] Speaker 3: ready for it when we come back. That's my only request. Is I would like to be able to vote on how shows end from here.

[49:59] Speaker 1: Edwin, there. A show called Edwin Drude that would do that. And there was a song for each whichever character you decided, like, how the show was going to end, whichever character that centered around they'd get to sing their song. So Andrew Lloyd Webber should write every character a new song, and it would revive cats in a very different way that you know, you still hear memory. And then it's like, All right, now old dudes gonna choose, help them choose everyone you know, that would be tougher. And then everybody votes. And if it's Victoria, like, maybe she's gonna dance something, you know, people will just keep buying tickets. Different things. Get different

[50:29] Speaker 3: thing every night. I know I love it. I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm happy to participate. I'd probably bring zero value to participation. Besides, here's some ideas. But I want to see it. I

[50:46] Speaker 3: asked. I've sent many messages to Andrew Lloyd Webber that go unanswered, so I don't think, I don't think he's gonna listen to me. But if anybody does have a way to get in touch with him and can get his attention, let's, let's do it. I mean, that's, that's, that's a, it's a gold mine. It's not like cats hasn't made enough money already. But this is like,

[51:19] Speaker 3: thanks everyone else for listening to this episode with Donovan vino on the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown, the cat sash. Feed to follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcasts at Spotify Stitcher, or anywhere else to listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat dive, and check out our website, the wrong cat dive.com,