This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here, there's a cat over there, and the wrong one died, and the wrong one died.

[0:17] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the cat's atrophy. I'm your host Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest.

[0:23] Mike Abrams: He starred on the most recent tour of Cats. At first, he was a swing, and then he was Pouncival, and then he was a swing, and then he was Mungojerrie, and honestly, I'm just excited to hear about all of them. So welcome Justin Geiss, and thank you for joining me.

[0:32] Justin Geiss: Yes, thank you for having me.

[0:37] Mike Abrams: So I always love kind of hearing, I mean you've covered so many cats, so I've got a billion questions for you about all of them, but I love hearing about your kind of introduction to the show. How familiar were you with it before you got cast as a cat?

[0:51] Justin Geiss: So I knew it by heart. I was a super, super fan before getting in, okay. Yeah. It was like one of those, it was like one of those things, because I'm mostly a dancer, and I actually started out in ballet before I ever did musical theater, just like strict ballet training for like 12 years, and the way that I got into dancing was through Cats, because I saw how hard they were dancing, and like how impressive it was that they could like have that stamina, and I was like, that one, I want to do that one, and I wanted to be the white cat so badly as a kid. It was all I wanted to be Victoria. It was just like the dream. So I was obsessed with that show, and then went to see like a ballet production, and then that was it. I was like, dancing, this, this is what I'm doing for my whole life.

[1:46] Mike Abrams: So did you become obsessed with the VHS?

[1:52] Justin Geiss: Oh, yeah. Okay. 1998 VHS, you're watching it over and over. How old were you about when you became obsessed with it?

[1:57] Justin Geiss: I would say it was like right around the time when like I was coherent enough to like speak. Was like right when my mom would play the soundtrack for me, and then show me the movie. So like then by the time I was like four, I had a Walkman with the CD in it, and that was all I did was I would walk around with my headphones on and sing it at full blast.

[2:25] Mike Abrams: Wow, so four to five-ish, you're singing Cats all day. This sounds like it's your mom's fault, who played it for you.

[2:33] Justin Geiss: It's fully her fault. Oh, yeah, like a hundred and ten percent. She loves musical theater. She loves performance. She like majored in like vocal performance and stuff when she was in college and all that stuff and she loved it, and then she bestowed that love upon me as well through the form of Cats.

[2:57] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. So when was the first time you saw it live then? If you're obsessed at that age, I mean, I guess did it come through town? Were you able to like, when were you able to go see it?

[3:06] Justin Geiss: So the first time I ever saw it live was actually the revival on Broadway.

[3:12] Mike Abrams: That's well after it sounds like.

[3:12] Justin Geiss: Yeah, so I was in love with the show. I would watch the VHS probably like once a year, if not like two to three times a year, I would just like sit down and be like, all right, annual Cats time, like around like Christmas because Christmas was always a time when you know, I'm doing Nutcracker all the time forever and ever and I'm doing 80 shows of it and I just need to watch something that like fuels my soul so that I don't like I can't hear Nutcracker anymore and I would always watch Cats around like that sort of time to sort of like get me in love with dancing again. But the first time I saw it like live was the revival and the overture started playing and I just started sobbing and you know, they like run through the audience with their flashing eyes.

Yeah, I was not prepared for that. So they run through the audience and they flash at me and I'm crying and the cat just grabbed my hand and then ran away. Just as like a little like I'm I can tell you're so excited to be here like get ready. This is really cool.

[4:21] Mike Abrams: Do you know who it was? Do you remember?

[4:26] Justin Geiss: I think it was Rumpelteazer, but it could have been Jelly. I just saw like a lot of yellow. So it could have been like Jellylorum or maybe even like Demeter, but I was up in the mezzanine. So I think it was Rump because I think she ran through the mezzanine.

[4:39] Mike Abrams: It's like a little bit of foreshadowing for you.

[4:45] Justin Geiss: Yeah, honestly, truly. Yeah, like I'm gonna grab your hand and then we're going to be doing this number for a long time.

[4:53] Mike Abrams: I love it. So you were obsessed. You got to see it. What like then what tell me about like the casting process because that's got to be almost a little bit a lot of pressure with how much you kind of love the show being in that whole process.

[5:04] Justin Geiss: Yeah, so I was also non-union when I auditioned. So like I know you talked to my boyfriend Dan about like his audition process, I'm sure and he was like I went in twice and then I got cast. Like that was great. I had like two weeks of going in like almost every day. And every single time I went in I was like, I can't wait to get cut. But I'm so excited to be here and just be taking like a free class. I just looked at it as taking like a free class where I got to be a cat. Like that's so cool. It's free. Why would I not go?

[5:50] Justin Geiss: Yeah, and then every single time I never got cut and I messed up like all the time. There was my first time singing in front of Andy Blankenbuehler. For those of you that don't know he choreographed the revival. I had sides for a dressing of Cats and they were like sing them, sing either the tenor line or the baritone line and the tenor line was more impressive but I was really stressed about it. So I sang the baritone line and for some reason my brain put it an octave lower. So instead of being like here, I was like way down here and I start singing and the whole table of people is just looking at each other like what is this kid doing? And then Andy goes, Justin, I just don't think that's right.

And I was like mortified. I said, what's the first note? And then the pianist plunked it out and I was so embarrassed that I said, oh my god I'm so sorry. Can I just and then I walked out of the room and I walked back in and I said, hi, my name is Justin. How are you guys doing today? And everybody laughed and I at that moment I was like either I'm getting cast or I'm getting cut and there's no going back because I just messed up so bad. Like either they love me and my personality enough that they want me to continue or that's it.

[7:24] Mike Abrams: Wow, what a story and that wasn't it as you weren't cut. So you get cast as a swing and you cover, tell me who you covered because there was a pretty good list.

[7:35] Justin Geiss: Oh, I covered Pouncival, I covered Tumblebrutus, Alonzo, Corico Pat, Mistoffelees, Skimbleshanks, Mungojerrie, Tantamile, just in case I ever had to. They said just like watch her in case and then I also covered The Booth. So I did everybody basically, basically every everyday answer that you could.

[8:03] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's almost easier to be like I didn't cover Monkey Strap and Tugger. And tell me about what it's like learning all of those tracks, especially as a dancer. I mean, they're all different dance numbers. Everyone's in a different spot at all times and it's a fair, I mean, it's a very intensive show, like it's incredibly, I mean the athleticism it takes to do that throughout an entire show, let alone knowing like seven different tracks.

[8:32] Justin Geiss: It was definitely something that took some getting used to. I had never swung a show before either, so I didn't know like really the a process that like worked for me and I found it like luckily for me very quickly into the rehearsal process. I know some people didn't find it till later. So at the first part of the rehearsal process, they struggled a little. I do well taking physical notes. So I had a I still have it. It's a huge binder. It's probably like two or three inches thick that's like full of drawn out like pictures of the set where everybody goes, not just my cats, where everybody goes. And then I have everything color-coded and then I wrote out where like what steps everybody was doing on what leg, when they were doing it, with what timing, on what count.

And I had that put in folders. That was also color-coded. And then at the back of the book, I had what I called my cheat sheets, which were usually about four pages long. And the cheat sheets just had like this is a canon that everybody participates in. You're on count four. Wow. So that if I had to go on in two seconds, because sometimes like I would literally go on mid-show and back before I knew all the tracks really well, I would have to like check my notes. And so if I needed to check really quickly, like, oh, God, what canon am I on? What count do I do? I had them like labeled. But I found that like a lot of color coding was very helpful for me. And so now all of my cats have colors associated with them. And when I think of the show, like I picture them all in like highlight colors, which is in their color. I love it.

[10:24] Mike Abrams: So did you do the same type of thing for the actual story or the backstory of Cats, or was this purely dance numbers?

[10:31] Justin Geiss: So for my binder was mostly for dance numbers and makeup. The makeup plots were also done fully color coded and written out in the back. And then for the plot, that was more of me sort of feeling out. OK, so tonight I'm on as Alonzo. I know he's older. I know he's a little bit more like Prissy. He's a little bit more like subdued than, say, when I go on for like a kitten. So that was more of like I'm letting myself have fun in the show and like really feel that versus like I have to get the step right or I'm going to bump into so-and-so and it's going to be an issue.

[11:16] Mike Abrams: So, OK, so yeah, that makes more sense. So you just kind of try to get the basic like here's the rough idea of that particular cat, but it wasn't necessarily like, OK, I got to be super mindful of this or that, because as a swing, you're just trying to make sure you're keeping the show moving a little bit.

[11:33] Justin Geiss: Yeah, I was always trying to keep the show moving. Every cat, I'm sure you've been told this a bunch and people already know, but every cat has three words that are associated with them. And any time I went on, I would read those three words like over and over and over and over so that when I went on stage like, yeah, I'm in the right place, but I also have to portray these three words the best that I possibly can, because otherwise you're not performing, then you're just doing. It's just dancing. Yeah, you're just doing whatever. But I think that's what was really fun about swinging was like I got to be Alonzo, who maybe wasn't as much of a fan of a certain cat. So I got to like sort of give the cold shoulder to somebody for a show. And then like next, you know, the next show, I would be a kitten and then I would be like, OK, cool. I love everyone. I'm just excited to be here.

[12:26] Mike Abrams: That's kind of fun. What were Pouncival's three words? Do you remember?

[12:31] Justin Geiss: I don't remember. I think one of them was like electric or like energetic, because I remember that was a really big thing was him being like, at least for me, being the youngest cat and also the youngest cast member on the tour. Pouncival was like my favorite track to go on for all the time because it felt very like.

[12:54] Justin W Geiss: Natural to just be like, full of this like, energy of like, okay, it's time to go. I'm at the ball. Let's go. Let's do it. Let's do the thing. I'm ready to go.

[13:04] Mike Abrams: What was the rest of like, did you ever, since you got to be Pouncival, you know, like not as a swing, did you come up with a backstory for Pouncival? Like, that's a cat I don't know as much about. And so I'm trying to figure a little bit like, I'm hoping you can educate me on a little bit more about what I need to know about Pouncival.

[13:20] Justin W Geiss: Yeah, so the way that our original Pouncival played it was a little bit different from me. And I think that's what makes that cat really special. Because there is room for you to sort of play it in different ways. I, the main thing that our tour decided was that Jelly Lorem is our mom. And Old Dude is our dad. But we are very, very young. Like we are like, this is our first Jellicle ball that we've ever been to. So we haven't gotten-

[13:49] Mike Abrams: Who does that include? You as Pouncival and which other kittens have Old Dude and Jelly Lorem?

[14:03] Justin W Geiss: I think, I think it was Tumble Brutus too, was also there. And it would have been Carbuckety. But we didn't have a Carbuckety.

[14:09] Mike Abrams: Got it. Okay. But so Pouncival is just very excited to be there. He's very, he doesn't know anything's wrong. So like all the Macavity scares are so, so scary and real. Because like, what could go wrong? It's the Jellicle ball that I've only heard perfect things about. So anytime I was, you know, there, you're prompted to be like, this is a scary point. Like I would genuinely freak out. Like I would send myself spiraling. Because I'd be like, Oh, my God, what's happening? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, like all the time. Because that's kind of how he felt. I always had a very strong connection, not just because we were best friends on tour, but to MonkeyStrap, the character. Pouncival really looked up to him. As like, in any, any version on the tour, Pouncival really looked up to him as like a leader, someone that he could follow and sort of take, take like, like a mentor, sort of views Monk as like a mentor, if that makes sense.

[15:24] Mike Abrams: So, so in your eyes, do you see Pouncival as like, the third in line after MonkeyStrap?

[15:32] Justin W Geiss: Potentially. He's definitely in line. I think there are other cats that are older than him that might serve better, like Tumble. Tumble might serve a little bit better. In other productions, Carbucketee is definitely older and would be more in line. But Pouncival is definitely being groomed to sort of be that leader. But he's unaware. Blissfully unaware. He's just such a baby.

[15:59] Mike Abrams: I like it. So he's obviously just happy to be there and join the show. What, what is Pouncival's reaction, you know, in the scary moment of Grizabella coming back?

[16:09] Justin W Geiss: He doesn't know. He doesn't know her. He's heard nothing about her except that she's old and gross. So, you know, he's, he's sort of being told like, all these different things, like some of the younger kittens are saying like, oh, she's like, diseased, but like, you can mess with her. Like, go over and like, like Mungo Jerry is like, go over and like, scratch her. Go over and like, scare her. Like, that's totally fine. But then like, these people that you look up to are saying like, don't go near her. Don't touch her. But you don't really know who she is. You know, by the time she was gone and left, you weren't even born. Yeah. Like, I don't know who she is. So I'm kind of curious. Pouncival's a little curious as to like, who Grizabella is, but doesn't really have any sort of negative or positive feeling. More just a general curiosity of like, what are you?

[17:08] Mike Abrams: And so no real take from your mom and dad being able to kind of, you know, who definitely know.

[17:14] Justin W Geiss: Yeah, that progresses. That progresses as the show does. So like her first entrance, I'm a little bit more curious because I'm like, Oh, who are you? I, I don't know who you are. And let me try to go say hello. Oh, no. Oh, I shouldn't. Don't do that. Okay, cool. Because then Jelly is very like, don't touch her. Do not go near her. Monkey Strap is like, nobody go near her, this wicked woman. So then I think Pouncival gets kind of scared because why am I not allowed to go near her? What happened? No one's explaining what happened. Everybody's just like, don't touch her, which becomes very scary. So I think like during the ball, then when she comes up, I was always very scared of her because it's like, now I don't know who you are. I've never seen you before. No one's ever spoken your name to me really ever. And now I'm being told that I can't go near you. These are all bad things.

[18:16] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, completely. And I think that that's, it's kind of interesting every time I talk to somebody who's covered, especially some of the cats that I haven't really done as much detailed research on, like the perspective from that, like the show from that lens. I want to pivot to now, Mungo Jerry's perspective, because it's very different. It's first of all, it's probably, it is an incredible dance feat. Like I was what I was mesmerized when I saw, cause I also saw the revival first. And I just remember seeing that dance number, that very catchy song stuck in my head for days after, but also just saying, wow, these two, like that was, it was that and the white cat, like those are the dance numbers as a non-dancer, non-singer was just like, wow, that, that was fun to watch. That was an experience to watch as someone who could never even remotely move and do any of those things.

[19:09] Justin W Geiss: What were Mungo's three words? Do you remember his, or at least one of his.

[19:13] Mike Abrams: One of them was like cheeky, or it was something, something to the extent of like cheeky or like sly along those lines. Like he's never actively doing anything bad. And if he is, he's not, why would he do something bad? He's always like gaslighting people. Like, of course I wouldn't do that. Very, he's a very sly, intelligent cat who portrays himself in a light of, I'm just like hanging out and doing whatever, but he's smarter than that. And everybody knows that he's more intelligent than that. So that's sort of my like lens of him.

[19:59] Justin W Geiss: And what's doing that perspective, like, especially after, you know, you just talked a lot about Pounceville, which is very curious and scared. And, and now it's like, I know exactly what's going on. I'm probably causing half of it. Like, what does that pivot like for you as a, as an actor?

[20:14] Justin W Geiss: It was really fun. Like I, my favorite weeks on tour, they were exhausting, but like my favorite weeks on tour were going like, okay, well today I'm Pounceville, tomorrow I'm doing Alonzo, third day I got two Misto shows. And then fourth day I'm doing Mungo Jerry into a split track. Like those were my favorite weeks because I got to experience so many different sides of the show, like that I would never have the pleasure of doing if I had just played one cat. But I really loved going specifically from a kitten to Mungo Jerry. And the reason was because Mungo Jerry is like a teenager. So he's, he's not a kitten. He's not like a little kid. He's been to the Jellicle Ball before. He knows what's up, but he's not old enough yet to sort of like have a really good conscience of like what he's doing.

So he's just messing with anyone and everyone. So like, anytime they're like, who do you think should go up there? He's like, me, obviously, like, no, it's not going to be you, dude. And he knows that, but just putting his hat in the ring, because he can, why wouldn't I do this? I deserve it. Or like going up to the kittens and being like, hey, you should definitely go scratch Grizabella. You should go do that. It's going to be good for you, I promise. So it was kind of fun going from like, a really curious, tiny, like newcomer to this like, very, like egotistical, borderline, like super narcissistic cat who just wants to ruin the world. He just wants to watch it burn. It was really fun.

[22:03] Mike Abrams: It did feel like, and I don't remember if Mungo, does Mungo wear a collar?

[22:10] Justin W Geiss: He does have a collar.

[22:12] Mike Abrams: It kind of feels like he's the like, teenage rich kid, like from a family that can afford to do, like he can kind of do what he wants. He doesn't need to steal, but he's going to steal. He's going to try to push everyone's buttons. And then, you know, he kind of gets this like, very showy dance number with his, you know, with his girlfriend. That's very fun.

[22:35] Justin W Geiss: And so I definitely got that vibe, which is, it's fun to hear that that's exactly like the way that it's written, which also shows just how good of performers everyone is to like, also kind of to portray that. So you, where, like, where does he fit in, in this like whole, he's not, he tries to take a spot, like he tries to take a shot at like, hey, I'm up for the running, but it's clearly not. Is he just trying to mess with everybody? Or is he truly trying to be the jellicle choice?

[23:05] Justin W Geiss: I, I think in the back of his mind, he really does want to be the jellicle choice, but it's more like for any Harry Potter fans out there, it's like the scene in Goblet of Fire. When Fred and George try to throw their names into the Goblet of Fire just to put their names in the Goblet of Fire, like they don't want to participate in the tournament. They just want to stir the pot.

[23:31] Mike Abrams: Yeah. It's kind of like that. He's like very Weasley twins-ish.

[23:38] Justin W Geiss: Yeah. That's kind of, they were a huge inspiration of like, this is how I should act. Just a troublemaker, a fool. And the, the orange still matches very like a ginger cat, very, it worked out pretty well. But I think it's, it's more along those lines. And he's very clearly the ringleader and Rumpleteazer's just like along for the ride. She doesn't really know what's happening. So it's, it's him prompting it being like, we are throwing our names in the ring because look at us. And she's like, yeah, sure. I guess that sounds like fun.

[24:17] Mike Abrams: How did, what family tree did you play? Did your cast play for Mungojerry? Like who are his parents? Do we know? Did you ever talk through that?

[24:25] Justin W Geiss: In my head, Mungo's parents are not with us anymore. I liked to play it sort of as like, his parents were kind of gone already. And then Jenny would take him in. So Jenny was sort of like an adoptive parent that he didn't really ask for. He's like that teen that's like acting out because his parents died.

[24:51] Mike Abrams: Interesting. So, okay. I don't think that that has a rumor that I've seen, which I like. I always like anytime there's, we can create new rumors. So he's an adopted by Jenny. And that's part of maybe the trauma of what causes some of the, the, the outbursts. Okay. I'm a fan. As someone who's seen so many different lenses of the show, I mean, you've got all of your colors that you've, that you've prepped. How would you explain the plot to somebody? Like to a non, someone who hasn't seen it, they're going to go see it for the first time. They just loosely know it's cats. Basically me before I went to see it the first time. Like what, what would be the, here's what you're going to go see?

[25:35] Justin W Geiss: So I would probably explain it in the most blunt way possible, which is, it's kind of just a show of introductions. So it's a show where there is this

[25:48] Justin W Geiss: It's a magical night once a year where all these cats that are very special and for some reason are a little humanoid, all gather in a junkyard and they decide who in the cult is going to become this choice, this magical person that gets to enter this special place. And then you just meet everybody. So every song you're meeting someone new, you're discovering something new and along the way, we are just letting you in on it. You're not supposed to be there. So as a human, if you ever feel uncomfortable, you should. You're not supposed to be there. It's just for the cats. We're just letting you live in it with us. And then as the plot progresses, you'll see who they decide to pick and the tribe picks instead of the leader in this one instance.

[26:40] Justin W Geiss: Okay. I like that. It's very kind of simplistic of like, don't worry, don't overthink it. You're just going to get introduced to everybody. Just be happy you're there. And then we'll kind of give you a little bit on why you're getting chosen. Like why the person is chosen. Because I feel like that part of the plot is very clear to people of like, yeah, okay, so they all chose Grizabella because she's this trodden cat that needs it. You know, they're like giving back to the community or whatever by doing this. And it shows that like, if you have heart, you can achieve things, you know, whatever that good happy plot, whereas like the other subplots of like Mungo Jerry's parents being dead, like, the audience doesn't necessarily know that or need to know that in order to enjoy the show. And I always add in I'm like, if you're a fan of dance, or you're a fan of just like, pushing the human body to its limit, and you love like watching people do that. This is the show for you.

[27:47] Jared: That was, it's interesting to hear you say that, because that is where I struggled with it. Not in that sense, but in the sense of like, I really like a clean story, a plot. And I appreciated like, all of the other pieces you just mentioned. I was like, Oh, that was incredible to watch. Like that is peak athleticism with people in the top of their field, you know, like that is in a feat to see but I was also sitting here and this this podcast exists mostly as a joke, but it did start from a No, I don't think that this like, this this introductions and choice wasn't my favorite way of finishing this. And I don't think I really even fully understood most of what I watched. I was like, yeah, I'm at a cult tribe where I thought they were gonna like, start drinking juice at the end, and they were all gonna die.

And then I was like, Oh, no, then it's then it felt very contest-ish, like each person's gonna do their number to see to like make their case, which I feel like is probably more accurate. And I was like, well, there's a bunch of these that probably didn't make a case at all. There's some random kidnapping scene in the middle. The judge is forced to stay on stage during the intermission, which really threw me off. And then and then we pick at the end with the, you know, the song that I knew, like the one song I knew very well. And so it is that like kind of, okay, if you're going to go to enjoy the dance numbers, and like the the true like nuance of it and the set design and all the other stuff like it is incredible. But if you are someone who likes to watch a, an introduction, a conflict in a resolution, a climax and a conclusion, it's not the show for you.

[29:32] Justin W Geiss: It is 100% not the show for you. There's a lot that's in there that's like hard to grasp like why it's happening. But like as a performer, or if you've seen it 80 times, you're like, yeah, obviously, he's getting kidnapped by Macavity. But it's like, that's not clear to literally anyone else.

[29:53] Justin W Geiss: For sure. And I think that's what I've enjoyed about these recordings is I would have never thought about Pouncival's parents, I would never thought that Mungo's parents are dead. Like I would have never thought that. But now if I watch the 1998 movie, again, I have a little bit more depth to say, Oh, interesting. I could see that. And I think that that's a part of this show that like, I wish was a little cleaned up. I wish there was a little bit more. I wish I was given a little bit more of the backstory and it didn't take me 80 times seeing it to be able to piece all together or just talking to every single cast member I can to have them tell me how they played it. But I think that that's a piece that I would have, for me, not for like, I'm not trying to tell Andy and Andrew Lloyd Webber and everyone else on like how to change a show.

But for me as a viewer, that's something I would have appreciated more. But also, you know, we're almost at 40 years, so I shouldn't be telling a show that's got that success. I am. I'm trying to influence the future of the show. Yeah. But I do think that that's an area where if I'm telling me to go see it, I'm giving a little bit more depth. I'm like, all right, look, here's there's going to be this thing they're going to put on. There's a tap number here. There's going to be this whole piece that's going to be completely unexplained. Really, here's kind of why it exists, because everything does have the more I'm seeing it, the more I'm like, oh, there's like that cat's turning for a reason. That cat's not doing this for a reason. There's there's some of those things that are really underlying in there that's just not so cut and dry clear until you really analyze it.

[31:29] Justin W Geiss: Or you're one of the super fans that has been able to go see it 80 plus times and be able to say, OK, I'm going to watch Justice Cat today and figure out what their story is. Yeah. And I think the other thing, too, is like. Every tour is different and every production is completely different. So like even if you've seen like U.S. tour number seven or whatever, when you go see U.S. tour number eight, all of those interactions are going to be different because it's a different clan. It's a different tribe. And I for sure my goal is by all the stuff I've made up and I've talked to enough people that have done the show now and I've told them a lot of my theories. My goal is, is that on tour, I think we're on seven or if it does, I think this is the seventh U.S. tour will be what's happening.

And I'm not sure when or whenever it goes back out. I want enough people to have heard this or me have talked to enough of the right people that it's like, oh, we're going to play it that way. We're going to play one of the rumors that I totally made up because I think everything has everything I've made up has has some that makes sense. And there's been a lot of piecing these things together. And that's my goal. I'm just trying to influence the future of the show.

[33:06] Justin W Geiss: Maybe one or two tweaks here or there, which will never actually make any difference, because in the end of the day, it's like it's still going to be the exact same show. I'm never going to get the ending to change. But if I can get, hey, these two are going to pretend that they're actually together or that this is a love triangle or this type of thing here. And that's where some of the animosity comes from. I will have considered this podcast a success.

[33:23] Jared: I love that. I think that's so cool.

[33:26] Justin W Geiss: That's it. That was not my goal when I started this. I just wanted to understand what I watched. And here I am, 50 plus episodes later, now understanding what I've watched and saying, OK, there are some potholes here and we got to fix them.

[33:41] Jared: Oh, yeah, for sure. And that's the thing, too, is like in rehearsals, they always say like, yeah, we know that there's like a plot hole here, but also like that's your job as an actor is to then fill that hole and make it make sense for you. But that means that every time you do it, that plot hole is going to be it's going to have a different plug every single time.

[33:49] Justin W Geiss: Interesting. Yeah, that's very true. That is very true. Let's do actually before we do rapid fire. You mentioned that you used to watch the 1998 movie every every Christmas season or every holiday season. Did you go see the holiday revival movie that they decided to launch? And what were your thoughts on it?

[34:08] Justin W Geiss: Oh, boy, did I? I have seen that movie three times now, and I personally love it for all the wrong reasons. I think that's the only way people love it right now. I think I think it's kind of like The Room in that it is so blissfully unaware that it's not great. It doesn't know it's so it's living so much in the truth of what it's trying to produce that it has no idea that people are making fun of it. It has I don't know what to make of it anymore because when I saw it originally, I was like, there are parts I enjoy. There are parts I thought were just terrible decisions. And then it just became the butt end of a joke that never is ending. But also Cats in general has always been kind of that way. It's always been a very easy punchline for theater, like for any time you need a theater joke because it's so it is so strange at times.

[35:15] Jared: Oh, 100 percent. But as I've looked back on it now and everyone's distanced themselves from it and everyone's kind of refusing to talk about it, I just wonder how it got to that point. Like, how did they get to the point of where, from what I read the day before, it wasn't even finished and they had like there were just some very questionable decisions, but I think that it's I do think there's not a life for it where it becomes exactly that. It's a it's a little Rocky Horror picture.

[35:44] Justin W Geiss: I was literally just about to say it's going to become like Rocky Horror and they're going to have like certain parts in the movie. Throw popcorn at the screen. Yeah, it's going to have like a whole like because you know how you can buy like the Rocky Horror kits where it has like all the stuff that you need to go see the movie. It's going to be like that. Someone's going to make like a whole thing that has to happen at some point in the film. Like, I think it's hilarious. I I really enjoyed watching it all three times because I think it's silly. I do. I do like that. I think what you have seen it though as you know from every angle, but you had seen it originally on in the stage production and I think that that's where it missed is that I think a lot of people who didn't get the you know the fortune of seeing it on stage or even the 1998 movie, if that's their introduction to it, are going to be a little confused.

[36:38] Justin W Geiss: Yeah, I think I think the biggest issue with it was that Cats is so the biggest part about Cats is dancing, right? Like if you take away the fact that the vocals are hard and that there are cats that like only are there to kind of sing and progress the like small plot that there is forward. It's mostly like a dancing show. And all of the dancing was shot horribly. So it doesn't, it doesn't help that like, something that could have been a spectacular feat of dancing, even if it wasn't that great of a film itself. Didn't even make that cut because you can't see what anybody's doing.

[37:32] Jared: Yeah. And I mean, what a talented group of dancers that they had to do it, that you just couldn't see do it. Actually, that was when I when I originally was seeing I was like, wow, this is a really incredible set of people. I was like, if nothing else, like, this should be fun to watch them do some of these dance numbers or whatever, you know, was was going to be coming from it. But it was not quite that or it was, but it was a little nauseating version of it.

[37:59] Jared: Let's let's, let's move on because I think I think everyone doesn't want to talk about the new movie. Let's let's do a little bit of rapid fire. So you played so many of the cats, but what's either somebody that you if you were going on one more time, who you'd want to go on as or just if you can go play anybody in the show, who would you want to play? And I'm going to ask the two ways, who would the five year old you answer? And what would today you answer?

[38:24] Justin W Geiss: Oh, man, five year old me wants to be Victoria, still Victoria. Okay, still Victoria. Like, hands down. I want to be Demeter, wholeheartedly, wholeheartedly favorite cat in the entire show. Best number, arguably. I just I love that.

[38:42] Justin W Geiss: That is my favorite number now. The more I've listened to it, the recording, the more I've kind of watched it. It's definitely the one that gets stuck in my head most frequently.

[38:56] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So, okay. That's a great answer. Not the answer I've heard all the time, so I kind of like that. Who is your favorite and least favorite cat?

[39:00] Justin W Geiss: I think, I think my favorite cat would probably be Demeter. I just, I love Demeter so much, so very, very, very much. I don't, I don't, I don't really like old dude at all. Don't like old dude. Don't like dad. I just, I don't like, I don't like the makeup plot or the costume or, frankly, like a lot of the solo parts of it. And that's not to knock anybody, like everybody that's done it is super talented. I just, I'm not a fan.

[39:41] Mike Abrams: Love it. So you're never getting picked for the Heaviside Layer.

[39:44] Justin W Geiss: Nope, not me. What about favorite song?

[39:47] Justin W Geiss: Macavity. Macavity. So yeah, I mean, you're staying right in there in the wheelhouse. I love it. Which cat do you think would be thriving in 2021?

[39:55] Justin W Geiss: Probably Victoria. Victoria? Interesting. Why? I think, I think she'd be thriving in 2021 because she was young enough that she wouldn't be like jaded and scarred yet in 2020. Like through the pandemic, she's such a bright, like positive light. She would have been like, everybody's like, no, you got this. We're going to survive. And then like in 2021, she'd be that girl that's like, I am vaccinated and I'm setting up like a whole picnic for everybody that's been vaccinated as like a celebration. Like, I feel like she's that girl. I kind of think she's a TikTok influencer. She's like coming up with dances. She took all of quarantine to figure out how to, you know, to learn how to do all of those.

And it now has like 2 million followers. 110% that one. That is exactly where she would be. My answer is that you could sell me on that one. That one's that might, that might change my mind. I've always answered this as Bustopher. I feel like a kind of fat, just eat oblivious to life, rich cat is, would probably be doing all right in 2021. But I like the idea of a TikTok influencer. For sure. She'd be thriving on TikTok.

[41:10] Mike Abrams: So now the question I have based this entire show around, but do you agree that Grizabella should have been the Jellicle choice? And if not, who should have been? And either way, I want you to defend your choice.

[41:18] Justin W Geiss: I don't think it should have been Grizabella. And so who is your choice? So I've gone back and forth on this, but I think the cat that I personally think deserves it the most is actually Macavity.

[41:36] Justin W Geiss: Macavity. I don't think anybody's made a Macavity argument. I just, I feel like it's like, if we're giving people second chances, right? Macavity made poor choices in his life, like consecutive poor choices that led him to basically become a mob boss. Like, let's be real. He's like a mob boss. And I feel like given a second chance, knowing what he's done and how it's affected people, given that second chance could potentially change. Like if there's no Macavity in the show, there's no fear. There's just happiness and bliss. And there's just this Jellicle ball where everybody's excited to be there. The only reason that people are scared is because of this, this like crazy person. And if given a second chance, maybe he won't do that again, knowing how badly it affected the tribe.

[42:42] Mike Abrams: I like that. So your argument is, is that if we're going to choose redemption, which is what old dude does, he chooses a story of redemption. You're saying choose the one who's still in the tribe and who also is causing more problems and fear and not the person who just kind of magically showed back up at the end.

[42:57] Justin W Geiss: Yeah, we can, we can accept Grizabella back in. There's, there's no word of like, we can't not accept her back in. But that doesn't mean she deserves to go up there. Yeah, right away. There's just like, oh, yeah, you haven't been around the whole time. Let's send you up on this magical journey that we all like, beg and plead for. Like, I don't think that's fair. I think also like maybe showing Macavity a bit of kindness might benefit that cat quite a lot, because maybe that's why he became where he's at is because he didn't get shown that same sort of kindness and love and affection. So by showing that to him in the same way that we do with Grizabella, it could sort of change the Jellicle history. I don't know. I am a fan.

[43:45] Mike Abrams: So you're saying, oh, dude, you had the right idea. You just picked the wrong cat. Like, I like the thought process was right, but you just made the wrong decision in the end. Who was your other choice? Now I'm curious, because you said you went back and forth between two.

[43:59] Justin W Geiss: So I went back and forth because I, I love my girl Demeter. And I just was trying to find an argument for Demeter to go up there based on like everything that she's been through. I think that it would be a great choice as well, just because this poor cat has really just seen every dark side of every alleyway that has ever existed and has never been shown like a lick of kindness, except by MonkeyStrap. Like even the other cats, we don't really interact with Demeter, like ever. Like no one goes near her at all, because she joined this tribe, even though it was like unwillingly, she didn't want to. So it's like, I was really trying to find an argument that wasn't like me just trying to pump up my girl.

[44:50] Justin W Geiss: She's, she's got a very dark storyline.

[44:53] Mike Abrams: She really does. Like, it's so unfortunate. And I was like, it would be great in the same way that like, you show affection to Grizabella, and then she gets sent up. Like, I think Demeter deserves a little bit of affection. But then I was like, but we can give her that without giving her.

[45:09] Justin W Geiss: Yeah, without, without murdering her.

[45:11] Mike Abrams: Without murdering her, snapping her neck and throwing her off the back.

[45:15] Justin W Geiss: Yeah, I do. It is if you think about like, depends on worth, like who's worthy. It depends on your criteria. And she's kind of only the criteria if you choose like the who's been through it all, like who's been through a lot. But that's kind of the same argument for Grizabella is because you kind of assume Grizabella had a fairly Demeterish storyline, except for it was so bad, because she's older, she left. And it's now coming back being like, please, it's my time. So I feel like it's hard to make her argument and diminish Grizabella's argument.

[45:49] Justin W Geiss: Exactly.

[45:49] Mike Abrams: Whereas I do kind of like the Macavity, because you can say he didn't leave. He stayed with us, even though he caused all kinds of problems. But he's been here the whole time causing issues and could use the same redemption.

[46:01] Justin W Geiss: For sure.

[46:03] Mike Abrams: That is fun. I love anytime someone makes a different argument, because it just shows that one that I'm not crazy, that I don't think Grizabella is the wrong cat to die. But it's just also fun to hear different angles of how people approach it, because there's just so many, which is cool. It's a cool part of the show.

[46:20] Justin W Geiss: Oh, yeah.

[46:22] Mike Abrams: Tell me about Whispers From Below.

[46:25] Justin W Geiss: Oh, so that is my podcast that I started right after tour was finished. It is a horror podcast, a little bit different from, I think, probably what people expect of me if they know me from Cats. But every week, it goes up on Mondays, and I talk about scary things, whether it's like a bad, scary movie that I saw, and I'm giving play by plays and being like, she wore this outfit, and she looked awful. She deserved to be murdered in that outfit. Or I'm talking about like a cold case, or an anime that I saw that was really scary. I have episodes on like Death Note and stuff like that. Anybody who's like a big anime fan knows what I'm what I'm putting down. But yeah, I just like talk about scary stuff every week. And it's fun. It's more of a like, me talking to the void kind of like I am now of just like rambling on things. So if you enjoy hearing me ramble, that is definitely the show for you.

[47:31] Mike Abrams: Are you going to be doing a scary cats episode?

[47:35] Justin W Geiss: I've thought about it. I had this idea where I was going to do an episode of like the things that you didn't know about cats and all the like actual dark stuff that we got told about like Demeter and Macavity and Grizabella and even like Bomb and like all the stuff that they dealt with to get to the point or the fact that like it's literally a cult, and then using it as an example to like showcase other cults. I've really thought about it. I just have to like, put it together. But it's definitely in the works.

[48:10] Mike Abrams: I've got notes for you. I've got a lot of notes for you. Because I don't think this is a children's show, which I love that we started with you as a four and five year old being obsessed.

[48:19] Justin W Geiss: Yes, I do think there's a lot as I researched that I was like, whoa, this I did never piece this together when I saw it. And also, wow, there are some dark, dark pieces to this. So I'm sure your notes are better coming because you have them color coordinated and from Andy Blankenbuehler, and I'm just reading the fan Wikipedia page and fan fiction of the, you know, of Cats. But there's a lot there. I think you got an angle, especially if you take the newly found theory that I've heard now a few episodes later of is old Deuteronomy just a serial killer, which he is, which is the my new favorite theory I've heard from someone from your cast.

[49:00] Justin W Geiss: Yeah, no, our cast was obsessed with this idea that he was just a serial killer. And we used to make jokes that like, because in our production, the tire like lifts up and it's like this huge magical moment. And then Grizabella like flies away. And we were saying like, instead of that, he just like snaps her neck and just throws her off the back, just like and she made it. How great. All right. Drink your Kool-Aid, kiddies. Let's go. Very like Jim Jones vibes. I think you've got, you know, you could go with the dark with the cults. You could go serial killers. You got a lot of ways to do a Cats episode.

[49:43] Mike Abrams: I think so. I think there's a lot of angles for that. So how can we how can we find that podcast and how can we stay in touch with you on social media?

[49:50] Justin W Geiss: Yeah, so you can find that podcast on Spotify. It's on like Google podcasts and like all the places where you find every other podcast you can find Whispers From Below. You can keep in touch with that podcast. You can either go to the website, which is just whispersfrombelow.com, or you can find the Instagram. It's the same thing, Whispers From Below. It's not taken, luckily. So there's no underscores or capitals or anything like sneaking in there. And if you want to keep in touch with me and my life, it's literally just like my dog and me wearing makeup. That's pretty much my Instagram. It's J-U-T-I-N underscore geese, like the animal because my nickname for a while was Jetting Geese when I was in Houston Ballet like training. So that's what it is. Stick with it.

[50:48] Mike Abrams: I love it. You never, never changed it from the initial social media. But well, thank you so much for coming on for making a new argument for a different cat to die, which is always fun and for just enlightening me on a few other cats I didn't know as much about.

[51:02] Justin W Geiss: Yes, of course, any time I'll enlighten you on many more cats. I did them all.

[51:20] Mike Abrams: And thanks, everyone else, for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the Cats atrophy. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at TheWrongCatDied or check out our website, TheWrongCatDied.com.