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[0:18] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Sashaphoe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest.

[0:23] Mike Abrams: He started Skimbleshanks in the 2016 Broadway Revival of Cats. So welcome, Jeremy Davis, and thank you for joining me.

[0:30] Jeremy Davis: Thank you for having me.

[0:32] Jeremy Davis: I am excited. I've talked to a handful of Skimbles. I've talked to some of the other people I'm sure you've worked with.

[0:38] Jeremy Davis: And I am still not positive on my consensus for your character. So we're going to get into that.

[0:43] Jeremy Davis: But before we get there, and before we get to the rumor mill and some of the stuff that I know is written about Skimble online, I want to start with your cat's history. So before you became Skimble, how familiar were you with the play?

[0:57] Jeremy Davis: Not very. I did see it way, way back. I was, I mean, I was probably nine or 10 years old when my parents took me to see it.

[1:11] Jeremy Davis: It was like a bus and truck tour that came through my hometown in Grand Forks, North Dakota. So it was in the middle of nowhere. But I don't remember much about it, except there were a bunch of people dressed up like animals.

[1:25] Jeremy Davis: And they were jumping around. And at the end, one of them got into a spaceship and went up into the ceiling. But that's basically all I knew. And then, of course, I figured out as I got older and joined the business, I knew sort of what it sort of was, but I'd never seen it.

[1:46] Mike Abrams: So just as a kid, how old were you when you saw that first time?

[1:49] Jeremy Davis: I think I was maybe 10 years old.

[1:52] Mike Abrams: I find that fascinating. I still do. Now that you know that, all that you know about the musical and the background of the musical, do you question your parents for bringing you as a 10-year-old?

[2:04] Jeremy Davis: No. No, I think it's fun for kids. I mean, it can be a little scary sometimes for them. I remember once I was out in the audience, and I mean, I really liked to play with the audience.

[2:18] Jeremy Davis: And I would go get up really close to them, and I saw a little kid. And it was during the naming of cats, which can get a little creepy. I mean, we're all chanting in unison and staring at the audience.

[2:32] Jeremy Davis: Well, you know, I started to go out there, and I saw a little kid. And this kid was maybe three or four seats in. So it wasn't even like she was really close to me. But I took one step towards her. I mean, just one step.

[2:46] Jeremy Davis: And she jumped over people next to her to get away from me. She was terrified. And so, yeah, I mean, I know it can be a little scary for kids or adults for that matter. But I don't know. I don't remember much about that day, but I remember having a good time.

[3:02] Mike Abrams: So I was – it's scary for adults even, too, because I was also three seats in or whatever, and I was not expecting it. And so that really haunted me the first time where I was just like, oh, wow, they're here. They're out. And especially the green eyes where it's dark, and all of a sudden it flashes in your face. I was very glad I wasn't on there.

[3:24] Mike Abrams: The more I've learned the plot, the more I'm sitting here going like, do we really want kids to be thinking about Demeter being sexually abused and the orgy in the middle of the play? Are we cool with the plotline?

[3:34] Jeremy Davis: Do you think kids catch that plotline?

[3:39] Mike Abrams: I mean, I didn't catch it as an adult, so no, I don't.

[3:42] Jeremy Davis: But it's there. It's definitely there.

[3:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah, it's there. Whatever. We move on. You go and see it. You enjoy it. You go out to scare kids. Did you ever – Tyler told me – I think it was Tyler told me he got hit. Did you ever get hit by anybody in the crowd?

[3:59] Jeremy Davis: No. No, I didn't get hit. But you know what felt like getting hit once? I was, again, going out in the audience, and I saw a friend of mine. And I thought, oh, I think that's John.

[4:08] Jeremy Davis: So I went over to him, and he was on the end. And I got right up at him, but he was stoic. He was staring at the stage, and he would not look at me. He was ignoring me – I mean, totally ignoring me.

[4:25] Jeremy Davis: And it felt like, oh, doesn't he see me? Oh, this is terrible. Oh, John, if you're listening to this, it was not that bad.

[4:35] Mike Abrams: That is great. So you saw him out. You're like, I got a friend out here. I'm going to go get him. He's going to love it.

[4:40] Jeremy Davis: And he did not like it at all.

[4:46] Mike Abrams: Did not care. Did not enjoy it. So now you're an adult. You get cast as Skimbleshanks.

[4:53] Jeremy Davis: Yes.

[4:54] Mike Abrams: Let's hear what – I love hearing what you were told. Let's hear the three words, what back story. Tell me what you were given about Skimbleshanks.

[5:02] Jeremy Davis: Okay, well, we got – for the first day or two, I think maybe just the first day. It might have been two days. We sat in a circle, and Trevor Nunn gave us the whole genesis of Cats, from Andrew Lloyd Webber, Lord Lloyd Webber, contacting him and saying, I want to do a show based on T.S. Eliot's Cats, and this is what I want it to be.

[5:33] Jeremy Davis: And Trevor and company trying to figure out how to weave all these poems together and make some semblance of a story and how – the whole thing, and it took all day or maybe two days for him to tell us this whole thing. I'm 40 episodes in trying to figure it out, so I wish someone had invited me and I could have saved all of us the hassle.

[5:58] Jeremy Davis: Well, there are several – I mean, those people who created it are several decades in, and I think they still are kind of not sure about it all. But during that whole time, there wasn't a lot of backstory to it all, and I think that's because most of the actual backstory that becomes the Cats lore was created over the course of the many decades and many productions of the show.

[6:27] Jeremy Davis: So throughout rehearsal, we sort of pick up on the stuff that some of us know or more of us know, or we've heard this about these characters, and, oh, I've heard this theory. And sometimes we would talk with the creators about it, but most of the time it was us like figuring out the stuff and sort of putting our own spin on it.

[6:52] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I mean, that is a consensus, and that's – if you look at the rumor mill, the consensus is there is no consensus, and then there's all kinds of pieces of like – which I have figured out a little bit, especially with your cast, because I've interviewed a lot more of your cast, that these people were friends before, and so even though their cats maybe weren't supposed to be super friendly, it's hard for them because they have chemistry on stage to not have some type of dynamic.

[7:19] Mike Abrams: And that is the part that fascinates me about the show. So what were you told, though? Like not necessarily all the backstory. I guess what were you told and what blanks did you fill in yourself?

[7:29] Jeremy Davis: I was told – what were my three words? They were caring, self-serving, and bright.

[7:42] Jeremy Davis: So those were my three words that Trevor gave me, and those were very helpful things. Caring was a really beautiful thing for me to play with, and that became a very, very fundamental part of my work of building the character because it also goes sort of hand-in-hand with the overall emotional theme of the show.

[8:14] Jeremy Davis: So that was very, very helpful. And, I mean, self-serving is then a very fun thing to play in opposition to caring because caring is about I care about all you out there, and self-serving is I care about me. So that was a really fun thing to go back and forth with.

[8:33] Jeremy Davis: I was also – we played a lot with the sort of type-A-ness of Skimbleshanks, the punctuality of it, the wanting to follow the rules and sometimes dictating the rules. That was a big part of what we talked about initially as well.

[8:53] Mike Abrams: Did you think of – and I think the answer is probably no – but did you think about, like, this is my brother, this is my parents, this is who I am in this, this is potentially my wife – not wife, you know, they're cats – but did you think about any of that, especially as you start staging yourself on – like, you're going to be dancing mostly with this person or spend most of the time over here?

[9:19] Jeremy Davis: Do you mean base the character on somebody I knew? Is that what you were talking about?

[9:24] Mike Abrams: No, I mean more of, like, I find it fascinating of – I've been trying to figure out the cat's family tree, and there clearly isn't one.

[9:32] Jeremy Davis: Oh.

[9:33] Mike Abrams: But I'm wondering, do you think about that stuff as you perform of, like, oh, this is probably – I'm probably this cat's brother.

[9:42] Jeremy Davis: Well, not initially.

[9:44] Jeremy Davis: No, okay.

[9:45] Jeremy Davis: Not initially. And actually, I had done some – this is so geeky – but I had done some, like, journaling and work before we got to rehearsal. I created a Skimbleshanks journal, which was like Skimbleshanks keeps a daily journal.

[10:01] Jeremy Davis: That feels on brand for Skimbleshanks.

[10:03] Jeremy Davis: Doesn't it? And in it, I, like, I sort of created a backstory of my own for him, like where he came from and how he got to be a part of the tribe.

[10:14] Jeremy Davis: And I actually – I don't know if this gels with everything else, but I sort of thought he was an outsider that came in because I had imagined that he was living in Manchester and was running from some, you know, dogs or something and sought refuge on the train as it passed – as it was stopped at the station.

[10:40] Jeremy Davis: And after it took off, he sort of found his home for life, and then he just sort of rode the train back and forth and back and forth until that one night every year when he would show up at the junkyard and see his whole tribe.

[10:57] Jeremy Davis: So I didn't really – I didn't really think of myself as family, blood family to any of the other cats, but I certainly felt – I thought of them as my found family, you know.

[11:09] Mike Abrams: Interesting. Okay, I like this because you're basically saying Skimbleshanks is not really deep in this tribe or part of this tribe even. You're an outsider, and you're just on the train, so you kind of come in and out and then – but for, you know, you make sure you catch the train back for the ball each year.

[11:24] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, absolutely. I'm always there for the ball.

[11:27] Mike Abrams: So you're not really family per se. You're just –

[11:31] Jeremy Davis: I mean, I didn't really hit that idea really hard every night, but I had – it was in my mind, yeah.

[11:38] Mike Abrams: Interesting. I like that. And that's, again, this is why this musical fascinates me because here's a different take on something, something I haven't heard, and I've talked to four or five Skimbles, I think, and that's a slight nuance to this take of this, like, backstory there.

[12:00] Jeremy Davis: And it is amazing to me that there is so much to this show compared to most every other show. It's like, no, this is the character. You're supposed to play it this way, or it's based off of a real person. You know, it's like it's written with an arc and a background and a history.

[12:11] Jeremy Davis: And here most of these cats don't have it. You can make some assumptions, and there's some that have been probably clearly stated by Andrew Lloyd Webber or somebody else.

[12:22] Mike Abrams: Yes.

[12:23] Jeremy Davis: But there's a lot that's just really up in the air.

[12:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's one of the things I – one of the reasons I love the show so, so dearly because there is so much room for interpretation, and not even just with our production in comparison to all other productions, but every night, you know.

[12:42] Jeremy Davis: Every night on stage, at least half of the show was improvised, you know.

[12:46] Mike Abrams: Wow.

[12:47] Jeremy Davis: I mean, not the steps.

[12:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[12:50] Jeremy Davis: But any time we were interacting with each other, I mean, five times out of ten, it was something I'd never done before.

[12:58] Mike Abrams: So, you know, that's really fun.

[13:01] Jeremy Davis: Yeah.

[13:02] Mike Abrams: So now with that in mind, with the I'm an outsider taking the train, I'm coming for the ball, do you even view Skimbleshanks as a potential candidate for the Heaviside Layer?

[13:13] Jeremy Davis: Yes. But he's self-serving, you know. He wants the – he likes the idea – I liked the idea of maybe getting chosen. But I also liked being Uncle Skimbleshanks to the tribe. I think that maybe because I was thinking of him as a –

[13:31] Jeremy Davis: As a visitor or a part of the found family, not part of the blood family, that I took great pleasure in feeling loved by them and loved for them, and that I didn't really want to leave it yet. So, yeah, I remember when I would do The Number, thinking part of it was I wanted to present myself as a candidate for going up to the Heaviside Layer. But actually, the biggest thing in my mind doing that number was to entertain these kids. All these kittens, I wanted them to have the best time. And I would sometimes look back at Q, who played Deuteronomy, Quentin Darrington. And he, oh God, he's the best. He was always so in it. And I would always, anytime I looked back at him, I'd catch his eye. And he was so full of love and generosity.

And that's sort of why I did it. I wanted to get people to feel that kind of stuff as Skimbleshanks. Yeah, which I love. And I think it's so, like, it's fun because he's a character that I never really knew. Is he really in the running? Do we really consider him? I don't think he really is. I mean, I don't think he really is in the running. In the lore of it, he is one of the older cats. But he's not Gus. And he's just one of the adults. And I think he may want to do it. Obviously, he may want to get reborn at some point. But it's not his time yet. Yeah, he definitely does feel like the uncle.

[15:17] Mike Abrams: Now, I want to talk about your song. Because I think there's some stuff that happens in the song that as an outsider watching it, I did not pick up on and made me very concerned. And so I got called out on this because I called Skimbleshanks the creepy uncle. And it's because of the way I interpret the song, which I believe now I understand what's happening. But I think you're telling a story to the kittens. Is that right?

[15:43] Jeremy Davis: Yeah. Is that basically what happens in the song? Because let me tell you what I saw. And I watched mostly the 1998 movie because that's what's on YouTube. And I saw your cast twice. But I don't remember 90% of what I saw. I was so mesmerized by the whole thing. And a little intoxicated the second time. That's a good way to see it. Yeah. I wish someone told me the first time. But I did not get that heads up the first time. At one point, it looks like you pretend to take your pants off. That's right. At one point, it looks like you bribe old Deuteronomy by offering him a mouse. And then there's this kind of random sneeze that's very kind of tongue in cheek. And then you build the train, which is I think, just like kind of really cool thing.

But the first time I saw it, I was like, did he just pretend to take his pants off in front of five kittens on the ground? Yeah. That threw me off. And I think the answer is that you're telling a story and you're just pretending to change into your night clothing or something. But what's going on there?

[17:00] Jeremy Davis: Okay. That's a good question. When I was taught the number. In our show, our production in particular was a little bit different because we had Andy Blankenbuehler involved, and he was sort of redoing a bunch of it. But then we also had original stuff as well. And my number was pretty much entirely original. And so when I was learning it from Chrissy Cartwright, who was sort of our link to the original, she's done it. I mean, she's been a part of the show since the beginning and said it in more countries than I could name. But we got to that part. And she was like, and then you pretend to take your pants off. And I was like, why? She didn't really have an answer. She said, because it's funny.

And so I was like, okay. And I guess I sort of decided that I had to figure it out for myself. So I decided in the story that I was telling, I was in the cabin as a passenger on the train. And I was imagining that this passenger was getting all set for bed. But then the window blows open or the door slides open, and he gets caught. That's sort of what I thought might be the issue there. But it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me initially, either.

[18:26] Mike Abrams: I love that the answer to most of these questions are, I don't know. It didn't really. Yeah, sure. Because whoever did drugs and wrote this the first time just thought you should do that. We're singing poetry and dressed up as giant cats. Yeah. The logic and reasoning are kind of out the window, just in the entire beginning of this. I tell people, when people will come to see the show, they'd ask me what it's about. And especially if they came beforehand, I would tell them, look, if you are coming to this show and seeking a logical narrative, then you're going to be disappointed. But if you come here looking for poetry, then you might have a different experience. Because the lyrics are all poetry, literally.

And then dance is sort of the poetry of movement. It doesn't always communicate words, but it definitely can communicate deep and strong emotion, which in the same way that actual poetry can. And so if you open yourself to thinking, I don't need a plot for this, then you might have a transcendent experience.

[19:47] Jeremy Davis: And so that's sort of what I used to tell people. If you want to look for a plot, that's fine. You'll have a hard time finding it. If you look at it as poetry and more of a feeling, then maybe you might create your own story.

[20:03] Mike Abrams: I have definitely created many stories from this. I wish, again, somebody would have told me anything. Now, I had a problem when I got to New York that I would just end up with lottery tickets or find something, and I would have no idea what I was going in to see. And I'm not very experienced on the history of most of these things. So someone's like, oh, yeah, of course you should know this show. And I'm like, I've never heard of it, but it won a Tony, and the tickets were $20. And I was living there, especially when I first got to New York, I was living right near all the theaters. And so I was like, I'll go. And that caused me some problems. A couple of shows, it was not what I expected. Fun Home was definitely one that threw me off.

The title makes sense when I figured out what it was, but not when I saw what I thought it was going to be. And there's a couple others that were like that. But Cats, I just knew it was this lore. I was told, oh, this is something you should just have to go see, and not much else. And the tickets I got for my friend is in set design. And so they were like, by the way, look around because this set's incredible. And so that was all I knew going in, nothing else. And I know myself as I am that neat, tidy sitcom-ish story, beginning, middle, end. And I did not get that. So I wish someone would have given me the advice you're just giving future listeners or listeners who are going to see the show in the future, is just go embrace the poetry.

Do something to have an experience, but don't try to tell the plot. I've spent 40, 50 episodes trying to tell the story myself. And I've loved doing it, but it's not there. It's not there well. And then when it is there, I've got some arguments like I have some gripes with the way that story was told.

[22:00] Jeremy Davis: Sure.

[22:01] Mike Abrams: So, okay. I want to pivot to one piece that I've heard the other half of this. But when I was doing my research and I was going through each character and trying to figure out and looking at the dark web rumor mill of everything Cats related, one thing really jumped out that kind of surprised me, which was the relationship between Skimbleshanks and Tugger. And at first I was like, I have no idea what's happening. It's kind of really weird. It's like a bullet point online that's like, there's something going on between the two. And it probably started from the 2016 revival. And so I heard Tyler's version of it. Tyler went to play Tugger and I know you're the other half of this. And I believe I talked to someone from the junkyard who helped influence this, but what happened here that you basically, an entire rumor mill on the internet is because of you, Tyler and the junkyard.

[23:53] Jeremy Davis: It really is. I had forgotten that it really came from the fans. Well, I heard your interview with Tyler and I thought, oh yeah, that's right. I actually remember being out. I remember that came from them and because it ended up becoming such a close part or such a well worn part of the show and of our performances that I just sort of assumed that had been there from the beginning, but I had forgotten that it came from the fans. But the success of that relationship or that idea of that relationship really is due to how amazing Tyler Hanes is. He was the greatest Tugger I could have ever hoped for. And it was because Tyler, just like Tugger, might have done anything at any moment. You didn't know what was going to happen. It was like being inside of a hurricane. He was so fearless. And one day he just, after we'd heard that idea, one day on stage, he just sidled up to me on stage and we started playing.

[24:53] Mike Abrams: That is phenomenal. I do love that. Again, there's not many shows that have the ability for that to even happen to where there's the freedom to say like, hey, this kind of rough idea could come from a fan. And then really because the plot's so loose that there could be that interpretation and not dramatically change the whole story. You couldn't do that. And most of the other night, I don't know enough Broadway shows to give parallels. Everyone always is telling me what different versions of Cats are, but it amazes me that you could do that. And I love that it was there and I love that it kind of continued after. And I think now I'm wondering what would be, if you could go influence one thing, as someone who knows the show, what would be the thing you would be like, look, the show's coming back. Here's one thing I think should happen that didn't happen.

[25:15] Jeremy Davis: I don't know. I don't know. I would have to really meditate on that, I guess. Man, I've never thought of that. I don't know. This is going to sound so cheesy, but please forgive me. I have a deep, deep, deep love affair with Cats. I am head over heels in love with the show. And I had the experience of doing it was my favorite thing I've ever done professionally. So I look back on it and I just think I loved every part of it. I don't know if I could think, man, I wish this was done differently or anything like that. I was so happy with it the whole time.

[26:01] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that's so fair. My goal is to influence not the story, but someone's backstory. And then just to see a slight change in it. I can tell you one that I would like to see.

[26:14] Jeremy Davis: I'd love to hear it.

[26:15] Mike Abrams: That I don't think is going to be dramatic. I want to see the relationship of Bustopher Jones basically being the money behind Macavity's crime mob and Mungojerrie and Rumpleteazer. I want him being the money, Macavity being kind of the mob boss, and then those two kittens being kind of like the kleptos that are in there. I want a little bit more there. I want to pull that together. I think we could tie just a little bit into that backstory. I think that one would be fun.

[26:46] Jeremy Davis: That would be fun. I like that idea. There was some talk about what if we could really adapt some stuff. In the middle of Bustopher Jones's number, there's a moment where

[27:02] Jeremy Davis: I mean that my journal I was I was thinking that I had found the train as sort of my safe haven from danger. But I love the idea of the tribe being the real safe haven.

[27:31] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, and then that's here. So you're and you're in now and you're the uncle and you've got your way through.

[27:39] Jeremy Davis: What else have I missed about this show? Like I've obviously talked a lot about it, but as someone who is passionate about it, a fan, have been in it, what are the things that like I really either got wrong or missed or that I need to know?

[27:54] Jeremy Davis: I mean I talked about it already, but I think the main thing is that this is really more of an emotionally themed show than anything else. So, I think the people who hate it are hate it for good reason because they're looking for a story that is really hard to get as an audience member. As a cast member, that story is very rich and alive. But unfortunately, it doesn't always or often even come across to the audience. So I understand when people are frustrated with it, but the people who really, really love it—and they really do love it—it's because they are following the emotionality of the show.

[28:44] Jeremy Davis: The whole thing from start to end is about a tight-knit group of cats who are shunning a former member of their tribe, right? They hate her for something that she has done, something terrible probably. We don't really know what it is, but she probably deserves to be punished in some way. But by the end of the show, we come, all of us as a group, come to see her as not someone to punish but someone to understand and have pity on. She's fallen so low and regrets what she's done. And so by the end of it, we've gone from this aggressive attacking group of people to one that opens up its heart to empathy, and I think that's why people who love the show love it. They experience some sort of journey of that.

[29:45] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, it is a very—when you watch it, there's probably one character, because of how many there are, that you can relate to or you can kind of feel some peace, too. It's also an incredibly visually appealing show. Like, it is mesmerizing to watch. As someone who's not a dancer or a singer or have any of those abilities, that was the one thing as I kind of poked fun at the story and the whole thing, and the first time I saw it, I also walked out going, "That looked incredibly difficult." Like, that was so challenging to do, and then doing it in that makeup, in that chaos. I mean, most of the cats, most of you are on stage most of the time.

[30:45] Jeremy Davis: I was like, that's a two-hour and 45-minute workout. Yeah, you're gonna do eight times a week. And so I appreciated that, and I didn't even realize at the time that it's so daunting that there's people singing to support you because you're challenging—that is, yeah, it's a tough job. It's a really tough dance. It's a tough sing. I didn't realize that before I got involved in it, and you're on stage the whole time. But that's also part of the thing that makes it great. You know, when you get done every night, you felt like you'd accomplished something amazing, something very—you know when you do something really hard and you get done with it, you feel really proud of it.

[31:45] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, and then to be on stage for two and a half to 45 every night and to be in character for all that time, it was just really, really exciting.

[32:01] Jeremy Davis: That's fun. It seems fun. But again, I don't have the ability to do any of this stuff, so I kept watching going like, "Wow, that looks hard."

[32:10] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, but that was the part that it kind of did draw me a little bit to it is that I, you know, someone who likes sports and I've, you know, somebody played sports. It's like, okay, I know what this is happening, but the speed that they're doing it at or like the precision they're doing it is great for me. I've never tried to do any of the dance numbers, and so I'm looking at going like, "Well, that looks really hard, really difficult," and it looks like the precision and the timing and everything being so perfect was incredible to watch.

[33:06] Jeremy Davis: That's great. I do find it when, you know, you said the people who hate it. I've yet to run—and I'm seeking somebody out. I really want to talk to someone who hates the show. Every person I've met that hates the show, I go, "Well, what did you not like about it?" And no one has a good answer. No one has an answer like at all. It's just like, "I just didn't like it."

[33:26] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, I'm like, "Well, it wasn't the story," was like because I could argue my gripe with the show was I didn't like the plotline that doesn't exist, and I don't like the ending. Yeah, I think the wrong choice was made, but that doesn't mean that I disliked the show.

[34:01] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, and so everybody was like, "I didn't like it." It's like, "Well, no, you don't have a reason. You can't explain a reason." So if anybody—there's nobody who's gonna—who hates the show is gonna be listening to this, but if anybody who knows somebody who hates the show and can tell, like, I will want to talk to somebody who has like a thoughtful reason of why they dislike it, and I've yet to find that person. I think it's an easy punchline.

[34:44] Jeremy Davis: Sure, it is, and that's why it's made fun of so often because it's so unique and so different. It's an easy one to poke fun at.

[35:01] Jeremy Davis: Let's do some rapid-fire, and then I want to get into the philosophical debate about Grizabella. You got it. So first is if you could play any other character—forget if you could sing the notes or could do the dances or anything—if you just could play anybody, who would you want to play?

[35:22] Jeremy Davis: I think I—well, I mean, this might just be because Gurr was so unbelievably amazing, but I would like to play Gus.

[35:30] Jeremy Davis: Wanna play Gus? Yeah. I mean, you also got to do Bustopher.

[35:34] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, but that's fun too. Like, you get to play a couple different roles throughout the show and—and Peter, the worst character in the whole show. Poor Peter.

[35:48] Jeremy Davis: Poor Peter. Bill Bailey and Victor and Peter disappear, but um, no, I think I'd like to play Gus. I just—I Gus was always my favorite part of the show whenever I was swung out and I watched it, and but again, that is probably because Christopher Gurr gave one of the greatest performances that I've ever seen.

[36:12] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, he was phenomenal. Oh, I loved him. What was your—who's your favorite and least favorite cat?

[36:24] Jeremy Davis: My favorite cat? I think I gotta go with— that's a tough one too. I love all the kittens. I love all those kittens. And again, I'm just getting sort of caught up in my own work on it, you know, I'm seeing my feelings at Skimbleshanks' feelings. So I love all those kittens immensely. I love Jenny, and I love Tugger. I just love all them.

[36:54] Jeremy Davis: And I don't know if I can tell you how—this is such a—you're gonna see it as a cop-out, but I don't think I have a least favorite cat.

[37:01] Jeremy Davis: There's gonna be one that bugs you. Who bugs me? I mean, Tugger bugs me.

[37:06] Jeremy Davis: Yes, Tugger was sort of my favorite and my least favorite as Skimbleshanks. I could see that.

[37:12] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, I think the twins kind of creeped me out the more I learn about them.

[37:17] Jeremy Davis: Oh, I like the twins. I love that psychic connection. It's always been Peter for me. Peter's the worst guy. Peter, I don't think needs to be there.

[37:32] Jeremy Davis: Favorite song? Skimbleshanks, of course. I'm gonna take that one out. Oh, I mean, give me another one. Um, I love Macavity. I mean, I think it's sort of a norm of our usual favorite. I think Macavity is really, really fun and great and sinister and twisted.

[38:03] Jeremy Davis: Yeah, when I first saw it, it's not the one that like stuck out as I researched and like start to listen to songs more. Listen to it, it's the one that gets stuck in my head the most. Yeah, so I'm with you there.

[38:12] Jeremy Davis: Which cat do you think is thriving in 2021?

[38:21] Jeremy Davis: Thriving in 2021? I guess Cassandra. I would think Cassandra's always seemed like the immortal cat, and she seems like she would be doing pretty well in lockdown.

[40:34] Jeremy Davis: I think she's okay by herself. Yeah, I think Cassandra.

[40:39] Mike Abrams: Okay. I've heard some interesting debates for that. I found it. I originally thought Bustopher because he probably is like just eating up as much as he can. He's not moving very much anyways. There's been some arguments for like, this person's probably become a TikTok influencer with some of the kittens. So I think there's a couple ways to go with it.

[41:00] Jeremy Davis: Yeah. But I originally thought Bustopher. That was my kind of answer.

[41:05] Mike Abrams: That's cool. I like that.

[41:07] Mike Abrams: Okay, the million dollar question. I've argued at length that I don't think Grisabella is the right choice. Yeah. Do you think Grisabella is the right choice for the Heaviside Layer? And if so, I want to hear your argument. If not, I want to hear who you're picking.

[41:21] Jeremy Davis: Um, I have two answers. Two answers. Yes. If, if, well, it's really only one answer.

[41:32] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[41:32] Jeremy Davis: Okay. But I'm going to get to it in a very long winded way, which is sort of just the way I am. If, if we're talking about who deserves it, you know, who has lived a virtuous life and who needs it and who, who really deserves it, then Gus, then definitely it should be Gus. Gus is old. He's probably going to die right after, I mean, sort of, I think Gurr talked about this once. Part of Gurr's show is that after the ball, he goes off quietly and passes on alone in the junkyard. So it's, it's his last chance. And he's so amazing. He's, he's, he's just great. It should be Gus. If, if it's supposed to be the person who deserves it or the cat who deserves it, but it's not, it's not. The show is about, it's about inclusion and acceptance, forgiveness, redemption, empathy.

And if that's the case, then it can only be Grisabella. It can only be the cat who we have pushed away and called names and spit at all night long until we finally understand the sadness that she lives in now. And, and how we, once that, once we understand that sadness and can take it on ourselves and, and see life through her eyes, then we can forgive her and accept her back in and give her the chance to redeem herself by being reborn into the Heaviside Layer. So that's my argument for Grisabella.

[43:25] Mike Abrams: So let me ask you at least one follow-up question.

[43:29] Jeremy Davis: Sure.

[43:30] Mike Abrams: You gave two different criteria. Who's making the choice of which criteria the genitals should use? Is that an old Deuteronomy decision?

[43:38] Jeremy Davis: Well, it's a, it's a show. Yeah. It's an old Deuteronomy decision, but the show really is, is about that, is about that journey. And I know, like, the emotional journey of that, of the show is from, from attacking and, and shunning to forgiving and accepting.

[44:04] Mike Abrams: And if you're following that emotional journey, which I hope people are, people are, then it has to be, it has to be Gris.

[44:17] Mike Abrams: So here's my like other kind of quick counter question part with that. If that is the show arc, which I don't disagree, it's clear that that is the decision, decision made as much as I dislike it or disagree with it. Wouldn't, I would argue that Grisabella would be better being accepted back to go the next year.

[44:39] Jeremy Davis: I could, I could see right through here.

[44:42] Mike Abrams: I could see that. But the problem with a, with a stage show is that we don't, it's just this one night. We don't get to wait the whole year.

[44:53] Jeremy Davis: I'm ignoring that. This is a musical or a show or anything. I'm like, I want to know like what's going on tomorrow with the cats. I'm asking the backstory, like, how did we get here? Why is this happening? Like, I think it's a next year choice. I can get that argument.

[45:11] Jeremy Davis: Okay. But I understand that point of view, but, but I don't think so. I mean, and maybe this, this also comes from my work on the show for myself personally, but you know, part of one of the things I wrote in my Skimbleshanks journal was seeing Grisabella for the first time after many years after she had left the tribe and not recognizing her at first. And just seeing her as I was going to the ball and passing this, this pitiful whore, this pitiful old whore of a cat that like I walk past and I think, oh, that's so sad. And as she passes, we catch eyes and she turns away. And in that moment, I realized she turned away because she recognized me. And then when I realized she recognized me, I recognized her.

[46:16] Mike Abrams: Um, so I have this, I have a real, I have real empathy for that character. And I understand, uh, I understand how important it would be for her to be reborn and get a second shot at life.

[46:34] Jeremy Davis: I, that is a very thoughtful approach to it. I am a little, I'm surprised that in Skimbleshanks life, Skimbleshanks wouldn't have run into her. Like she leaves, you're on the train all the time. You're out. You're not in the tribe all the time. Wouldn't she be the highest likely cat to maybe cross paths with Grisabella at some point?

[46:51] Jeremy Davis: I suppose. Yeah, I suppose. No, but I just didn't, I didn't imagine that that had happened. I sort of thought that she had gone off. I don't think Skimbleshanks spends a whole lot of time in town outside of the junkyard. I think he goes from the station to the junkyard and then, and when he's done, he hits back to make sure he catches the train to go back North. But, um, uh, so I, I hadn't imagined that he had seen her since the olden days.

[47:21] Mike Abrams: I, I, you know, I'm coming around to Grisabella, but I'm still not there.

[47:33] Jeremy Davis: I don't need you to come around. You have everybody, especially cats, but all shows, you know, people interpret things in their own way and they feel their own feelings about it. And I can't tell you that what you're feeling or thinking is wrong.

[47:47] Mike Abrams: I appreciate that. I'm trying to tell everybody that the show is written incorrectly and that forget 40 years of success. I think this would be even better if we changed the ending.

[48:00] Jeremy Davis: Who do you think should get, if you're going to go out there?

[48:02] Mike Abrams: Oh, you could answer this again. It's goes back to your criteria question. Cause Gus is the most worthy. Um, I have, and everyone who's, is, who's listened, I've, I've given my, my take, I'll give the short version, but I saw Leona Lewis. And so I saw the, I thought X Factor. And I thought, what is going to perform? Like if I'm truly at a comp singing competition and Simon Cowell's old Deuteronomy and us in the audience are voting, I thought you're going to compete. You're going to mix Tugger and Misto together and they're going to go together as a combination that doesn't fit most, any other criteria. If you like break down the show, you think about it. But if I was thinking, well, which ones are going to get the votes from home?

[48:47] Jeremy Davis: Yeah.

[48:47] Mike Abrams: Those were the two that to me were like really entertaining and fun. I think now like the other argument would be Macavity's song is also pretty, pretty crazy and wild. And there's some others like there's definitely, there's a lot to it. I think that if I had a full season of Cats, like X Factor, then they would have played me Grisabella's backstory 10 times with like some nice package before she comes up and sings "Memory." And maybe that would have, you know, got some, some votes from, from America or England. But that was the way I interpret it. So that's how I've always kind of answered that question. I still think Gus is the most logical choice. But Gurr did kind of change my mind of like, he doesn't think that there's another life. He thinks he's done either way.

[49:30] Jeremy Davis: Yeah.

[49:34] Mike Abrams: So I, I just like debating all of them. It's fun to think about how the different ways it can go, because there is not a clean story arc and there's not a clean kind of like beginning, middle end. It's still like to this point, I got, cause I've only seen it twice in full and I've seen the 1998 movie probably once or twice in full and then clips of it all the time. So I'm not even sure I remember the order of everything that happens.

[49:58] Jeremy Davis: Yeah.

[49:59] Mike Abrams: And that's where it becomes like, if it is just a show, it's like, well, you know, we're going to kick it off with this. And I watched a lot of those competition shows. So we're going to have the show stopping song at the end. It doesn't mean that that show stopping song always wins, but they cut it up really nicely for TV. And that was my frame of reference. And I'm very, I'm very cognizant of the fact that it's because of the first Grisabella I saw. And that was all I knew going in is that she was doing it. I knew "Memory" and I knew that people were going to be dressed up as cats and nothing else.

[50:32] Jeremy Davis: Yeah.

[50:32] Mike Abrams: And so I, um, looked for a plot probably more than I should have. And that's how I filled it in for myself.

[50:41] Jeremy Davis: That's great. I liked it.

[50:42] Mike Abrams: So I'm wondering if anybody else in the world saw it that way. I'm, I'm, I think I'm definitely in the minority from that.

[50:50] Jeremy Davis: That's one of the, one of the beautiful things about the show is that it leaves itself so open to fan interpretation and fan theories. And, uh, I just, I love that thing about it.

[51:01] Mike Abrams: That's I agree. I think that's where, if I tell what you said at the beginning, as anybody that sees it now, not the new movie, but if they watch the 1998 movie, I say, just go watch the singing and dancing, just like go appreciate the talent that it takes to do this. And like the kind of the fun and the humor of that and some of like the interactions you're going to see, I was like, forget the rest.

[51:23] Jeremy Davis: Yeah.

[51:23] Mike Abrams: The rest doesn't make sense. And then if you want to know, like the rest is really, it's an orangey, there's some sexual abuse. This cat was probably, you know, a sex worker that's coming back, like actually murdering a cat at the end. Like, don't dig too deep. It gets really dark, real dark, real fast. And it's probably cool.

[51:42] Jeremy Davis: See all true. You have no, you're like, yeah, of course. That's it.

[51:45] Mike Abrams: Yeah, I guess. I don't know.

[51:48] Jeremy Davis: That's the, that's the whole, that's the stock answer for anything. I guess. I don't know.

[51:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I, that's the fun. That's the fun of the show until Andrew Lloyd Webber or Trevor Nunn or Andy Blankenbuehler will come on and set the record straight for me.

[52:03] Jeremy Davis: Until that happens, I'm sticking with my stories.

[52:06] Mike Abrams: I don't know if they could set it straight for you.

[52:09] Jeremy Davis: Yeah. It would just confuse me even more with different pieces where I'm like, I didn't even think about that. But that's what makes this fun.

[52:17] Mike Abrams: Well final question is just how can we find you on social media and stay in touch?

[52:22] Jeremy Davis: Jeremy Davis 76 is my Instagram.

[52:27] Jeremy Davis: But I'm terrible at it. I'm so awful at social media. It's just, it's awful. I remember during the show there was a photo taken of a few of us and somebody posted it, or maybe I posted it. And it got a comment like, oh my God, Skimbleshanks made it to social media or something like that. I'm terrible. It's mostly pictures of food that I've, I've made.

[52:52] Mike Abrams: That's great. That's what Instagram is for.

[52:56] Mike Abrams: So, well, thank you so much for being here, for telling me your, you know, your, your background, your journal and everything in between. It's been super fun to hear your take.

[53:05] Jeremy Davis: It's been such a pleasure. It's been, you know, four or five years since I've, I've been in the show. And it was, I, like I said, I love the show dearly. So this has been really cool to revisit it again.

[53:17] Mike Abrams: That's awesome. I'm glad that's what I'm here for. I'm pretty much just here to give your cast the opportunity to relive their experience and, and other casts now, as I've talked to more, but I'm a slowly, but surely, I think my goal is to influence a future show.

[53:31] Jeremy Davis: I can't, I can't imagine that you won't influence a future show.

[53:37] Mike Abrams: Yeah. I I'm, I'm waiting when they, when it comes back. So.

[53:48] Mike Abrams: Well, thank you again. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the castastrophe. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at TheWrongCatDied or check out our website, TheWrongCatDied.com.