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[0:16] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of The Cat Sashafi. I'm your host Mike Abrams and today we have another amazing guest. He played Rum Tum Tugger in the 5th US National Tour. So welcome Chris Stevens and thank you for joining me.

[0:28] Chris Stevens: Thank you for having me. Happy to be here. I always enjoy talking to anyone who plays Tugger because I think it's one of the more interesting and exciting characters for sure in the show. So let's start because I know you've actually played Tugger not just on tour but also in other productions. Let's start with your history of Cats prior to tour. How much did you know about it?

[0:44] Chris Stevens: So I truly didn't really know the story. I think I'd seen in middle school I remember we had two music teachers and when we were in the one music teacher's class if she was ever out for whatever reason every time the sub was in we always had to watch Cats. And you could never get through the full thing obviously in the 45-50 minute period that we were there. But I'll never forget it. Mrs. Case every time she was sick we watched Cats. We watched Cats. And I just remember like I remember seeing Tugger. I didn't think much of it because truly I was just starting to get into theater in middle school. It wasn't like a career goal yet. But I was just like what is this? What is he? Who is this man that's going around humping everything?

Like it is what it is. And then prior to that I guess like didn't really touch it during high school. And in college I had a couple friends. I went to DeSales University up in Allentown Pennsylvania near Allentown Pennsylvania. And a couple of my theater people were very much cat fans but I just didn't get it. And I remember one time we went to our friend's house and chose to watch it. And I sat there completely sober not knowing what I was watching. I didn't have much experience prior to the audition.

[2:06] Mike Abrams: So this is this 1998 movie I'm assuming. And you're yeah PBS. So you have watched it as I want to interview your teacher now. I want to talk to Mrs. Case I think you said. Like I want to know who chooses to come in as a substitute just like hey we're gonna watch Cats.

[2:24] Chris Stevens: I know. It was we always dreaded when she was out. And I hate to say it she always had like a lot of health issues going on. So we watched it often but never made it through the full production. You know it's a that has to be a wild decision for a middle school substitute teacher.

[2:36] Chris Stevens: It was bizarre for sure. So okay and then how about how old were you when you saw it the time you sat down and watched it?

[2:45] Chris Stevens: So I was probably I'm gonna say it was college. I was probably somewhere between 20 and 21.

[2:51] Mike Abrams: And you watched it sober in college.

[3:01] Chris Stevens: Yes yeah I don't know why I was sober but yes I watched it at a group movie night.

[3:06] Mike Abrams: Okay and so you probably had a better at least grasping of it then than middle school I would assume right?

[3:10] Chris Stevens: I started to see well I truly I will tell you even when I got into it I truly didn't understand the whole through line. I was like I don't understand what I'm watching. So I just started to look at each cat as like their own story and I was like okay well that's an interesting song that's an interesting cat and that's a weird cat you know. It just became very much like focus on the music and that became enjoyable for me you know.

[3:37] Mike Abrams: So let's dive right into this because it's my favorite part of discussing the show is the through line that doesn't exist basically. It's loose. It's very loose. What were you told in the fifth tour? I mean you're going on tour you're getting the backstory. What through line did they tell you and then what cat-by-cat did you kind of pick up on along the way?

[4:00] Chris Stevens: You know yeah so this is back in 2011-2012 that I was when we would have been rehearsing in October of 2011 and to be honest Richard Stafford who was our director choreographer and phenomenal. I got to remember I was I was new I was one of the new people half the cast was returning. I was just super overwhelmed because I was I wasn't even a dancer you know I mean like I I remember on it was a Sunday night. I was here actually in my childhood bedroom where I'm at right now and I called my high school director and I said hey Cats is having an open call tomorrow in New York. I said they're only looking for two roles. I think they were looking for a MonkaStrap, Tugger and a male vocal swing and I said should I go?

I said I don't know anything really about the show. I don't know musical and she said to me she was Chris Stevens Sutton Foster was in the ensemble of Thoroughly Modern Millie and she was the understudy. Overnight she became Sutton Foster the Tony Award winner. I was like okay I'm going. Race to the train, get up there. I get to the audition. I'll never forget this. It was Richard and our associate Jonathan and then I believe Kristen Blodgett was also in the room that day and so we did a dance and I remember I kept getting called out because very much you need to have the Paul rather than I'm very much jazz hand person. Very big, very loud and they kept I don't say stop slapping my hand but they would come around and tap it like Paul, Paul and so that was that was a little bit of a intro into oh they really want us to be a cat.

Turns out like I think that the audition was Monday. I had a call back Tuesday and I want to say I got the call on Thursday that I got it and that was sometime in June. It was right after I graduated and then October we're rehearsing and I remember Richard was telling us so much but to be honest a lot of it was in one ear out the other because I was so focused and overwhelmed with what was being thrown at me physically. I went to DeSales. We were a BA program not a BFA so the dance was like my weakest triple threat so I really wanted to pay attention to what I physically had to be doing so I can be honest and say as far as the through line went he may have said some things but the base that I got was we're a tribe there's this underlying story of redemption for Grizabella and that's what I continue to hold on to.

I didn't really understand you know the Jellicle ball everyone's coming everyone's invited and I guess the biggest part was like we're all trying to prove why we're worthy of being the cat that gets a new life but then I just you know my thing when people are coming to see the show I'd be like just focus on each cat and listen to their story know that this is all based off poems and then there's Grizabella. That's what I would tell my friends and family. Then there's memory.

[7:05] Mike Abrams: Yeah so that is interesting to hear. The dance the song like as someone who's not like not a dancer not a singer not I'm a zero threat of your triple threat like I have none of the none of the abilities and so all of that is foreign to me so the part I've grasped onto is the story but it is interesting to hear you say that's like yeah you probably were given a lot more of the backstory but at that moment in time you're just like who cares I just got to make sure I'm dancing correctly.

[7:31] Chris Stevens: I was like I just have a job to do and I want to do it well and yeah it was it was I was just out of school too so I was so excited to be working on a national tour of a long-running musical and it was just I remember every day I would go in and before I could even get in the rehearsal room I was just sweating because I'm very hard on myself and I'm a perfectionist but I wanted it to be what they wanted and I got a lot of notes and I kept practicing and practicing and you know they say you have to go home and practice your job too during rehearsal and I did every night until I was like ready to go to bed I think I'd allow myself once a week to go out to dinner with a friend or go see a show because we rehearsed in New York and that was my first month living in New York and I was like I want to enjoy the city but I was so overwhelmed.

[8:34] Mike Abrams: Yeah and it's interesting to hear you say that in the like wanting to almost be a perfectionist in a character that really kind of thrives off of almost imperfection like it is yeah Tugger is a lot more free willed and just like crotch dust here and there and how are you gonna like so how did you balance that like the here's my dance number but also here's a little bit of the like creativity I probably need to have with this particular character.

[8:54] Chris Stevens: Yeah I would say I struggled a lot with that and I got plenty of notes all through tour and then even when I went and did the production after the tour with Richard again you know I knew that Tugger had to be cool and I'm a I present confidence I am a very confident person I'm 6'3 so like I just kind of walk in and a lot of people always look my way just because my height so while I can pretend to be confident inside I'm freaking out and that's like right and hearing you just say that I was like I almost wish I could go back and get another turn at Tugger because what I know now and how I feel in my skin now like that little 22 year old was panicked and just could have he could have brought a lot more to it but at the time he was doing everything he knew you know and there was constantly the note of just lay into the hips more relax more and I was so much about like oh you know you said this pose so my arms will be here at all times and I just wish I would have taken the pressure off because truly Tugger is the one cat that can get away with it.

[9:56] Mike Abrams: Yeah that's that's kind of fascinating to hear and it is part of it's probably just time like it's early in your career or in the beginning of your career at that point and trying to play all that how did you how did you internalize Tugger's backstory because like I mean I know if you didn't follow the through line as much you at least knew Tugger's persona so what was yeah did you play that?

[10:17] Chris Stevens: Well so I remember further into the process I want to say probably like week two or three Richard and I sat down he's just like you know I want you to really latch on to like Tugger shows up when you least expect it he comes in he's fun he is the chaos yet he thinks he is the world he thinks you know no one's in Tugger's world besides Tugger and if he can get Bombalurina he can attract the ladies or flirt and do whatever that's okay and you know there's even a little bit of like sexual ambiguity with Tugger because he's just that flirtation pulls it all over with all the cats he's constantly saying pranks which could be misconceived as flirtation and yet he's very sexual indirect with Bombalurina and yet there was also something I remember too about something was brought up and I know I never went in the research to find out if it was actually true but that Tugger and MonkaStrap and Macavity were all the sons of Old Deuteronomy and they were all competing and like Tugger was very much that middle syndrome child that just needed to impress everybody MonkaStrap was the leader and Macavity was like the youngest to disown the family and went off and you know tried to rape Demeter and all this stuff so I didn't ever want to get too serious with Tugger I wanted to keep him light I wanted to keep him fun I was told that my Tugger gyrated more than any other Tugger in the past so I really did embrace I really embraced the hips you know he wears that big fur jacket and the chains and plus I had the coolest collar with all the spikes and the big T it kind of was like you put that specialty Tugger outfit on and it just became me it was very much the Mick Jagger Elvis Presley rock star and that took a minute to embrace because I pride myself on kind of being the guy next door very gentlemanly and so I really had to let loose of all that and it became fun and I kind of just started in my everyday life being a little more loose rather than so proper and watching my posture all the time you know.

[12:08] Mike Abrams: Yeah I'm sure it has to be especially at that point in your life like it is yeah it's it's early in the career it's at that point where you can kind of bring some of that.

[12:17] Chris Stevens: Yeah I really started to kind of go with that like he's unpredictable you never know where he's going to show up so while the cast knew where I was entering from it might have been a beat earlier it might have been a beat after it might have been a little sudden thing or you know he's playing a little prank or I hit someone's tail and you know they might have gotten a little thrown off and not to say I was playing games but I really wanted to exude that he was I was never going to give the same performance you know.

[13:31] Chris Stevens: I was told my Tugger gyrated more than any other in the cast. It was a really fun experience to step into that role right after graduating. I remember auditioning for it and thinking, "Wow, this is a character that thrives on imperfection." So, I tried to find that perfect balance of being confident and yet a little chaotic, which is what Tugger is all about.

[14:01] Chris Stevens: One of my favorite moments was during a performance in Kentucky. There was this audience member who was really into the show, and at one point, I made eye contact with them. They were just so enthusiastic, and it really fueled my performance. It’s those little interactions that make touring so special.

[14:28] Chris Stevens: Being on tour can be a whirlwind. I remember having a three-show day, which is intense. You have to pace yourself and keep your energy up, but it’s also exhilarating. Each show feels like a new opportunity to connect with the audience, and that’s what keeps me going.

[14:56] Chris Stevens: The camaraderie among the cast is incredible. We all support each other, especially during those long days. There’s a shared understanding of what we’re going through, and it really brings us closer together.

[15:26] Chris Stevens: I also learned a lot about myself while playing Tugger. It pushed me out of my comfort zone and made me embrace the quirks of the character. I found that the more I let go and just had fun with it, the better the performance became.

[15:51] Chris Stevens: I think that’s a big part of what makes CATS so unique. Each character has their own story and personality, and it’s up to us to bring that to life on stage. It’s a challenge, but it’s also incredibly rewarding.

[16:06] Chris Stevens: I remember one night, I decided to improvise a little during my number. The audience responded so well, and it reminded me of the magic of live theater. You never know what’s going to happen, and that spontaneity is what makes each performance special.

[16:35] Chris Stevens: The role of Rum Tum Tugger is definitely a highlight of my career so far. It’s a character that allows for so much creativity and expression, and I feel lucky to have had the chance to play him.

[17:02] Chris Stevens: I also love how the show brings people together. After performances, I’ve had fans come up to me and share their stories about how CATS has impacted their lives. It’s amazing to see the connection that the show creates.

[17:29] Chris Stevens: Touring has its challenges, but it also opens up so many opportunities. I’ve been able to travel to places I never thought I would visit, and each city has its own unique vibe. It’s a great way to experience different cultures while doing what I love.

[17:59] Chris Stevens: I think the most important thing I’ve learned on this journey is to stay true to myself and my artistry. Each performance is a chance to express who I am, and I want to make sure I’m always bringing my authentic self to the stage.

[18:28] Chris Stevens: As I continue on this path, I’m excited to see where it takes me. I hope to keep growing as a performer and to keep sharing the joy of theater with audiences everywhere.

[18:55] Chris Stevens: Thank you for having me on the show. It’s been a pleasure to share my experiences and talk about the incredible journey of playing Rum Tum Tugger.

[27:03] Chris Stevens: I was told my Tugger gyrated more than any other in the cast.

[27:33] Chris Stevens: It was a really interesting experience because I was fresh out of college, and I got cast almost immediately after graduating.

[27:43] Chris Stevens: I remember going into the audition and just thinking, "This is going to be a fun ride."

[27:53] Chris Stevens: I tried to find perfection in a character that thrives on imperfection, which was a challenge for me.

[28:13] Chris Stevens: One of my favorite moments was in Kentucky when I had this fun experience with an audience member.

[28:23] Chris Stevens: They were really into the show and started interacting with me during "The Rum Tum Tugger" number.

[28:33] Chris Stevens: It was a blast, and I loved how engaged they were.

[28:53] Chris Stevens: Being on tour can be crazy, especially when you have a three-show day.

[29:03] Chris Stevens: You really have to pace yourself and find ways to keep your energy up.

[29:13] Chris Stevens: I learned a lot about stamina and how to take care of my voice during those times.

[29:23] Chris Stevens: Each city has its own vibe, and I enjoyed exploring them when I had the chance.

[29:33] Chris Stevens: The camaraderie with the cast was also a highlight; we became like a family on the road.

[29:43] Chris Stevens: I think that bond really translated to our performances.

[29:53] Chris Stevens: Overall, it was an unforgettable experience that shaped me as a performer.

[30:03] Chris Stevens: I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[30:13] Chris Stevens: The energy from the audience is something that keeps you going, especially during those long days.

[30:23] Chris Stevens: I remember one night, we had a particularly enthusiastic crowd, and it just fueled our performance.

[30:33] Chris Stevens: It’s moments like that that remind you why you love what you do.

[30:43] Chris Stevens: I think every performer has those nights that stick with them, and that was definitely one of mine.

[30:53] Chris Stevens: The joy of performing live is something that can't be replicated.

[31:03] Chris Stevens: Each show is a new opportunity to connect with the audience.

[31:13] Chris Stevens: I always tried to bring something fresh to each performance, even if it was just a small change.

[31:23] Chris Stevens: It keeps things exciting for both the audience and myself.

[31:33] Chris Stevens: I think that's part of what makes live theater so special.

[31:43] Chris Stevens: You never know what might happen on any given night.

[31:53] Chris Stevens: That unpredictability is thrilling.

[32:03] Chris Stevens: I remember one time, I forgot a line, and I had to improvise my way through it.

[32:13] Chris Stevens: The audience loved it, and it turned into a funny moment.

[32:23] Chris Stevens: Those are the kinds of experiences that make every performance unique.

[32:33] Chris Stevens: I think it’s important to embrace those moments and roll with the punches.

[32:43] Chris Stevens: It’s all part of the journey as a performer.

[32:53] Chris Stevens: I feel like I grew so much during that tour, both personally and professionally.

[33:03] Chris Stevens: It was a transformative experience for me.

[33:13] Chris Stevens: I learned to trust myself and my instincts on stage.

[33:23] Chris Stevens: That confidence has carried over into everything I do now.

[33:33] Chris Stevens: I’m grateful for the opportunity to have played such an iconic character.

[33:43] Chris Stevens: Rum Tum Tugger is such a fun role, and I loved every minute of it.

[33:53] Chris Stevens: I think every actor dreams of playing a role that allows them to really express themselves.

[34:03] Chris Stevens: Tugger was that role for me.

[34:13] Chris Stevens: I hope to bring that same energy and passion to whatever I do next.

[34:23] Chris Stevens: The experience of being on tour is something I will always cherish.

[34:33] Chris Stevens: It taught me so much about resilience and creativity.

[34:43] Chris Stevens: I look forward to taking those lessons with me into my future projects.

[34:53] Chris Stevens: I think that’s what makes theater so powerful; it’s a constant learning experience.

[35:03] Chris Stevens: I’m excited to see where my journey takes me next.

[35:13] Chris Stevens: Thank you for having me on the show and letting me share my story.

[35:23] Chris Stevens: It’s been a pleasure to talk about my time as Rum Tum Tugger.

[35:33] Chris Stevens: I hope the listeners enjoyed hearing about it as much as I enjoyed living it.

[35:43] Chris Stevens: Here’s to more adventures in theater!

[35:53] Chris Stevens: And to all the fans of CATS, keep celebrating the magic of live performance!

[36:03] Chris Stevens: Thank you!

[36:13] Chris Stevens: I appreciate the opportunity to share my experiences with you all.

[36:23] Chris Stevens: It’s been a fantastic journey, and I’m grateful for the support.

[36:33] Chris Stevens: I hope to inspire others to pursue their passions in the arts.

[36:43] Chris Stevens: Remember, every performance is a chance to create something special.

[36:53] Chris Stevens: Thank you again for having me!

[37:03] Chris Stevens: I can’t wait to see what the future holds.

[37:13] Chris Stevens: Until next time, keep dreaming big!

[37:23] Chris Stevens: And don’t forget to enjoy the journey along the way.

[37:33] Chris Stevens: It’s all about the experiences we create together.

[37:43] Chris Stevens: Thank you!

[37:53] Chris Stevens: I appreciate it!

[38:03] Chris Stevens: Take care, everyone!

[38:13] Chris Stevens: Bye!

[38:23] Chris Stevens: See you soon!

[38:33] Chris Stevens: Keep the spirit of CATS alive!

[38:43] Chris Stevens: And remember, the wrong cat died!

[38:53] Chris Stevens: Thank you!

[39:03] Chris Stevens: I’m signing off now!

[39:13] Chris Stevens: Bye!

[39:23] Chris Stevens: Until next time!

[39:33] Chris Stevens: Take care!

[39:43] Chris Stevens: Bye!

[39:53] Chris Stevens: Thank you!

[40:03] Chris Stevens: I appreciate it!

[40:13] Chris Stevens: Bye!

[40:23] Chris Stevens: Thank you!

[40:35] Chris Stevens: Demeter and Bomb. I went back and forth with Grizz. I love Grizz for what she stands for and what she represents. I think my favorite though, if I had to pick one, I think I'd actually go Skimbleshanks. Every time that music started, I loved the makeup plot, I loved the costume, I loved the Skimbleshanks vest. Yeah, there was something really just... And maybe I also knew that I was going to be going home soon after that number of shows. I really took a lot of joy from Skimbleshanks' character. My least favorite, and I hate to say this because R2, and it's not anything personal obviously, I really didn't love Mungo and Rump. I think it's the song, it just makes me feel uneasy. Also, they're bandits, they're constantly stealing things.

But then I look at somebody like Alonzo and I'm like, why are you here? You can't sit with us. Who are you? I love the choices. The Mungo, Jerry, and Rumpel teaser is all that was stuck in my head the first time I saw the show. It's all I remember. It was like... Yeah, it was catchy. It's catchy. Maybe that's why I don't like them because I couldn't get it out of my head.

[41:51] Mike Abrams: Well, this is a good lead-in. Favorite song from the show?

[41:57] Chris Stevens: Favorite song, favorite song. Oh, I want to... Macavity.

[42:00] Mike Abrams: Macavity. Love it.

[42:03] Chris Stevens: Yeah.

[42:04] Mike Abrams: Okay. I've been asking this question and I was trying to think back from this for you too, but I've been asking people which cat they think is going to be thriving in the era of when you performed. So that would be the mid-2000s, right?

[42:20] Chris Stevens: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[42:22] Mike Abrams: And then which cat would be thriving now? So personality-wise, which cat do you think they would be in their element in the years you were on tour? And then which cat would be in their element in 2021?

[42:35] Chris Stevens: I think Tugger was definitely in his element, truly. And I'm not saying that just because I did it, but it was so... Where I was in my life, what was happening in the world, I think Tugger was thriving in 2011, 2012. Now, I feel like... I think Old Deuteronomy is probably just thriving right now. He's sitting back and being like, what have y'all done? What have you all done to this world that I've created for you? And he's just sitting back shaking his head, at least in the last year, I would say. I'll be interested to see how the mood shifts when things are fully back open and we're back to our regular scheduled programming. Yeah, I could see an old dude or maybe even a jelly lure. The two adult figures come to my mind right now, just shaking their heads and being kind of appalled and disbelief at what happened in the last year.

[43:29] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Everyone answers it so differently. And it's always such a fun way to think about it. I think those are great answers. The 2010-11 one was really hard to think back of what was happening then. And I think Tugger was kind of where my head went. I also felt it felt very... A lot of pop, which is why, for some reason, that's what I remember from that era more than anything.

[43:51] Chris Stevens: Yeah.

[43:51] Mike Abrams: And so that's why it felt maybe the original Grizabella, not what we get come back would be my thought there. But that was a hard one to think about the 10 years ago, who would have done that? And I think I just went where I am. I just graduated. It was my first gig. Nothing was stopping me. So as Tugger, I felt like I was thriving, but I also felt like that cat helped me live a little bit in that period and just embrace. And to be honest, I found the best part of myself on that tour. So he gave me a bigger gift and an unapologetic gift. So that's why I chose Tugger.

[44:29] Mike Abrams: Love it. So my million dollar question, I've argued at length that I don't think Grizabella was the right jellicle choice. So I always love to hear, if you get free reign and you're picking, if you're Old Deuteronomy, are you picking Grizabella? If not, who are you picking and why?

[44:51] Chris Stevens: I love that Grizabella was picked. I understand why she was picked. I loved in our rehearsal process that we all had to find a reason and we never shared it, but we had to find a reason to pick Grizabella. And so that became very personal as well. However, the moment where I fell in love with cats and what's ironic is our Grizabella was originally our Jelly Lorem, the year that I was going on tour. And I remember being in rehearsal, the one year we had our actress playing Griz had a little bit of an issue with height. So we had to reconfigure some stuff. So our Jelly Lorem ended up moving over into our Griz spot. However, Jelly that I was watching in rehearsal, and it was the one moment that I had actually chosen to be present.

And I remember we were singing Gus right before Growl Tiger, but she was doing the whole Gus is a cat. And I just started watching Melissa sing with Chris Sidoli, who was our Gus, and I fell in love with the show. I don't know what it was that made me pick it. I don't know what it was, her gentleness, the way she's taking care of him, the way Chris played and he shook, but I really feel for Gus. And I will tell you, if I stop and listen to that soundtrack, Gus is the only song that makes me cry. And I think this is where I go with it, though. If Griz didn't get picked, I think Gus would have been picked. But now what's happening to Gus? Because I don't think he's making it another year to the ball.

[46:23] Mike Abrams: That's the million dollar Gus question is, does he have another life to live? And the Grizabella argument is that he doesn't. And he doesn't care to anymore. And he's ready to be gone. He doesn't need to be reborn. I think that's the most common argument against Grizabella, which makes sense. I've had a very close relationship with my grandparents my whole life. And so I think there's something very grandparental about Gus, and everyone just watches him. And it's the one moment in the show where we all just stop and listen, besides memory. It's the only time up until that point that we all stop and listen to what's happening and what's being told. So whether it's just the elderly, whether it's the relationship that maybe he is the grandfather of all these cats and kittens.

Yeah, and I genuinely just feel so bad for him. At the end of that song, even after Growl Tiger, and it comes back to Death the Feeder Cat, it breaks and shatters my heart. And he just wanders off and you're like, oh, are we gonna see him again?

[47:30] Chris Stevens: Yeah, next year, who knows? It's exactly right. It's the first time I saw it. And it felt like my grandfather telling me war stories. It's like that type of post-dinner, he's got his drink, and gonna tell you those things. And I was close to my grandparents when they were alive, and at the same time, it felt that way. And so I think that that is always why there's a lot of gravitation to that, if you've had those experiences, especially.

[47:58] Chris Stevens: Yeah. But wait, Isabel, I want to know your reason why.

[48:03] Mike Abrams: My reason was, I mean, I think I remember it being pretty basic in the sense, but just that Tugger had to get over himself. Tugger wanted to be the cat because he thinks he deserves everything. But whether she's his mother, whether it's an aunt, whether it's a friend, he had this bond with her, and he wants to feel it again. But it's more envy. It's more envy that she got out, she got to go do what she wanted. It didn't work out for her. But Tugger feels like he's still stuck in this world and trying to be the impressive cat where he hasn't really left his norm. She got to, she got thrown back. She's tattered. So it became this reason of just like, oh, she deserves the second chance. Like, let us find this relationship that we had before.

Definitely not lovers. It was never a loving, maybe it was, who knows? Who knows? Maybe it was Tugger's first real love. And she said, I'm out. I'm out to go become a glamour cat. Couldn't play this anyway. But my reason was just like, oh, she deserves, she's proven, she's begging. She's as desperate as they come right now. Because if you think about it, aside from Gus, who's literally just, I could really use this, I'm going to die. No one else is really begging for it.

[49:16] Chris Stevens: Well, yeah. I mean, there's Macavity kind of in his own roundabout way. But I don't even count him. No one liked him. And I appreciate you saying that. In my mind, he was never part of it. He's banned. He's never going to be back in. Obviously, he thinks he's entitled and deserving. But I don't think anyone would ever opt for him. I definitely don't think Old Deuteronomy would have ever chosen him.

[49:42] Mike Abrams: Yeah. He's not picking that son, for sure. You were going to ask me something.

[49:47] Chris Stevens: No, because you brought up, I brought up the Gus and then you had asked earlier who my least favorite was. And I actually think I'm changing that because you know who, and I think it might be the song, Bustopher used to annoy the hell out of me. I don't know what it was. Just his pompous attitude and righteousness. I just, oh, I wanted to like roll him off the stage.

[50:11] Mike Abrams: He is, yeah, he's been, it's Gus too. It's like they play, it's usually Bus Gus, right?

[50:17] Chris Stevens: Right.

[50:19] Mike Abrams: It's the one part of the show that I don't understand. It doesn't really fit the more I've like analyzed the show. It comes out of nowhere.

[50:25] Chris Stevens: Yeah.

[50:27] Mike Abrams: It's just like, yeah, it's this rich guy out of nowhere who comes in and talks about going to gentlemen's clubs and eating a bunch of stuff. And I never, as I've tried to make my own through line, that's one I don't really get. Now, I've forced it in a couple ways with like, I can get some love triangles out of some friendships with Grizabella and Jolly Lorem, and you can get some other interesting pieces of like, if you think Macavity's and the Mungo and Rump are a crime family, I think he might be the money, he might be funding it. So there's some ways to tie them in. He's like the godfather.

[51:03] Chris Stevens: Yeah, it does feel like a very interesting choice for the show. And he never really feels like he's actually, I've never heard anybody make a real case for him. The one case I had heard was someone said that he's a strain on the Jellicle tribes, like economically and socially, and just like in terms of sustainability, and so he needs to go. But like, no one's made an actual argument for like, oh, he deserves to be reborn. It's just like, he's there.

[51:34] Chris Stevens: Well, and he's also there and then gone, and we never see him again. So it's like, but I remember being bothered because I love, and it was obviously brilliant choices by the actor being made, but I hated Bustopher, yet loved Gus. I enjoyed Growl Tiger, but hated Bustopher. Like it was just, I think the way that role comes across in the song, it's just that, you know, it doesn't sound like anything else in the show. So I think I just became very against the Bustopher regime.

[52:02] Mike Abrams: Well, and it is really funny you say that, because my answer to this question has always been Peter, and I don't think Peter was in your production, though. But Peter was the ensemble cat that is also Bus Gus, and Peter in the revival. And I was just like, it's a cat that just doesn't seem, it's there to be a dance, a body. It's a body for the dance number.

[52:23] Chris Stevens: But that's the thing, but like Electra, and isn't there an Etc too at some point? Like there's Brandon, I mean, I know, technically Tugger in his basic form is Bill Bailey. Like that's what I was told at least. But I also didn't really have much time to even channel that as a different character, because I was like, do the opening, run off and get in your specialty. I was just like, let's just get through the opening.

[52:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Well, this has been fun. My last question is always just how can we find you on social media and stay in touch?

[52:56] Chris Stevens: Yeah, sure. I'd appreciate the support and love. I'm on Instagram at cjstevens421. So it's at C-J-S-T-E-V-E-N-S-4-2-1. On Facebook as Chris Stevens. I'm probably deleting my Facebook in the soon future because it's just, Instagram is the way to go.

[53:15] Mike Abrams: Awesome. Well, this has been super fun. I've loved hearing and learning some stuff from you and getting to hear about your performances and just relive some Tugger questions and thoughts and hopefully, you know, to do Tugger again and you've got some new material. You really stooped me with that Grizabella mom thing. I'm going to have to, I'm going to have to explore that the next time I get the chance to if there's a chance. So I appreciate your theories. I will definitely use them if I get the opportunity.

[53:50] Mike Abrams: Well, thanks for listening to this episode of The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of Catastrophe. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at TheWrongCatDied or check out our website, thewrongcatdied.com.