This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Mike Abrams: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. And the wrong one died. And the wrong one died.

[0:17] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. I'm your host, Mike Abrams. And today we have another amazing guest. He was Mungojerrie in the fourth US National Tour, which was, I believe, around 92 to 94-ish range. So welcome, Gavan Pamer, and thank you for joining me.

[0:32] Gavan Pamer: Thanks for having me, Mike. I'm glad to be here.

[0:36] Mike Abrams: I'm excited. I haven't talked to anyone on the fourth tour. I've talked to the third, I've talked to the fifth, I've talked to the sixth, I've talked to the Broadway cast, but no one on the fourth tour. So I would love to kick things off a little bit with what was it like on the fourth tour when you're kind of in the middle of the initial Broadway run, you predate the 1998 movie, people might have seen the third tour, so it's a complete unknown, but it's still a pretty wild experience for anyone seeing it at any time. So what was it like in the early 90s?

[1:06] Gavan Pamer: Well, our tour opened in 1987. And our tour was designed to play all of the cities that the larger companies couldn't fit in. So our tour was designed to go up in eight hours, to load the set in in eight hours, and come down in three hours. And it was designed to play the smaller cities that the first national, second national, and the third national couldn't play. So all three of those companies had raked stages, which are higher in the back and lower in the front. And our company was designed on a flat actual stage. And so we were designed to play anywhere you could possibly play. And we played everywhere. And I joined the company in October of 92. My actual anniversary is the same as the Broadway anniversary.

I joined in October 7, 1992. And the show was still a phenomenon. We were still breaking box office records across the country because we were playing cities that had never had the show before. Philadelphia had the first national, LA had the second national, and they were sit down companies. And the third national played a lot of the larger market. But we got anywhere you name it, we played it. And I've played 48 out of the 50 states. The only two states that I didn't play with Cats was Alaska, which they have played after I left. And Vermont was the only state. And I've even played Hawaii with Cats. But I've played pretty much every major city and smaller city across the country.

[2:42] Gavan Pamer: I don't know. I just never got to it. I mean, I've driven through Vermont, but we just never played it for some reason. It was never booked there.

[2:50] Mike Abrams: Why no Vermont?

[2:50] Mike Abrams: So your tour started at the same time as the third, is what you're saying?

[2:54] Gavan Pamer: Yeah, the third national started in 1986. And we started in 1987.

[2:59] Mike Abrams: Okay. And so you were kind of touring together at points.

[3:03] Gavan Pamer: Yeah, for the first year. Because, again, because of their rake stage, they were still having difficulty loading in and out. And so our set was literally designed to be the most functional to get in and out quickly. And our show actually ran for 12 years, we actually beat if you can believe that. Here's a bit of trivia. While I was on the road, we beat the record Oklahoma that went out in 1943, ran for 10 years consecutively. Our company beat Oklahoma's record. And that was 1993-94 that we beat the record for longest touring production. Then of course Les Mis beat us and then Phantom beat Les Mis by like four months. And they were out for almost 17 years. But we ran for 12 consecutive years, never missing a show. Yeah.

[3:52] Mike Abrams: That is wild. So I want to stick with here and then we'll go to a different a little bit. But what was it like in these smaller towns? We'll get into the plot and the backstories and everything else, but it is a visual experience and a sexual experience and something that I can imagine being in maybe some of these more conservative small towns or as you're not in the main metropolitan areas. What kind of reactions? Did you get kind of a wide range of reactions across the board?

[4:27] Gavan Pamer: Well, when I say it was the Hamilton of its day, it was the Rent of its day. Everybody wanted to see the show. We sold out absolutely everywhere. When we played the Muni, we played St. Louis Muni, which is an outdoor theater that holds 12,000 people. We broke box office records and sold a million dollars in one week. I mean, everybody loved the show and they wanted to see the show. It came out sort of around the same time that Les Mis and Phantom were touring as well. But those were such larger shows than ours, that they still were playing the sit-downs for like nine weeks. When we were out, Phantom of the Opera was sitting down for nine weeks at a time in cities. We were literally playing one week.

The major cities like LA, we would play for two weeks. DC, we always played for four weeks. Boston, we were there for two weeks. The major cities, we were still in 1997 when I left the show. We were still playing those major cities for four weeks at a time, because the show was that much of a phenomenon. And then sometimes you would play what was called a split week, where you would go and start the first half of the week. You would play Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and do three shows in a college town somewhere, and then finish the weekend out doing five shows in another smaller town. And so it was pretty much on the bus, off the bus, do the show, get back on the bus, go to a new town and do the show.

And there was a point on the tour, it was the arena tour, where we did arenas every single night, where you would play a 10,000, 15,000 seat arena, do the show for one night, pack everything back on the bus and go out, because they could load the show in eight hours and pull it down in three. They packed everything into six trucks and two buses with the cast, and we went on our merry way.

[6:16] Mike Abrams: Wow. So you did. I never heard about an arena tour for Cats.

[6:21] Gavan Pamer: Well, it was one of those promotional things that somebody, some promoter had a really great idea and said, hey, this would be a really great idea on how to make this big money. And they did. I mean, yeah.

[6:32] Mike Abrams: Well, yeah. If you sit in a basketball stadium and take out just a, what is it, maybe a quarter of it to put the stage, you're still talking 14,000, 15,000 seats easy.

[6:42] Gavan Pamer: A night. Yeah, absolutely.

[6:44] Mike Abrams: Every single place, versus what's a normal small theater, 4,000 or 5,000? Like Broadway houses are around 1,200. Those are the larger Broadway houses, but now they get up to like 27, like the Benedim in Pittsburgh, where I'm from, was about 2,700 seats, 2,300 seats. So you're roughly going between 1,200 seats and 2,700 seats. But then there were towns that we would play. We played Billings, Montana in a brand new performing arts facility that had like 900 seats. Like there wasn't even enough room for us backstage that our wardrobe was in the back of a truck somewhere. And normally we'd all have our own dressing rooms, but there was a dressing room for the men and a dressing room for the women. And we played these smaller towns, which was kind of exciting.

[7:31] Mike Abrams: So my next question, this is what I was built for, is stadium tours here with my sports background.

[7:38] Gavan Pamer: Of course.

[7:40] Mike Abrams: Did you ever, in basketball stadiums, when there's a hockey arena as well, they sometimes have some challenges with the floor over the ice. Did you ever have stages over a hockey rink or an ice and you had to deal with any of those challenges?

[7:53] Gavan Pamer: I did not experience this, but I was told that there was one time that they got to a place and they actually put the deck of the set on the floor of the basketball court and they did the show and people were in folding chairs. And that was one of the places that they played. But when we played the arenas, we had a built deck, so it was raised higher above everybody. So it wasn't, we weren't on the ice or anything like that, but it was raised higher and it was always a built up stage. That was one of the requirements is that they had to have like a concert stage that they put our set on top of.

[8:26] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And now most of these venues do because they're going to have, they're all built to be multifunctional for those things.

[8:33] Mike Abrams: Let's go back before you get on tour. How much did you know about the show?

[8:40] Gavan Pamer: I didn't know much about the show other than hearing the recording. I grew up loving musical theater and listening to every recording of anything. And I had listened to the music, but it never really caught on. And it was the third national tour actually in 1987 that I saw at the Benedict Center. And I watched the show and it was exciting and fun and I enjoyed it. And the lights came up and I stood up with my friends. I was in college at the time at Clarion University. And I stood up with my friends after the show was done and I said, well, that's a show I'll never do because it was completely beyond my comprehension that I would be capable of doing something like that. And, you know, I had been tap dancing since I was six years old and I danced since I was six.

And I was going to school at the time for music education. And then I transferred to Point Park University consequently the next year and went into musical theater. So I got a much more focused education in musical theater. But at the time I enjoyed it. It was fun. It was exciting, but it really wasn't on my radar. And I literally said, I will never do the show. I'm not capable of doing this show.

[9:43] Gavan Pamer: It's interesting to hear from a dancer because a lot of dancers see it and go, wow, I like, especially in the female side with Victoria, they're like, if they were ballet and dancer, I think, hey, this is something I could be doing. So to hear a dancer say, I've never, I'm not in there. I'm not going to be in this. And then to be in it, it's kind of wild.

[10:00] Gavan Pamer: Yeah, but my show was a Chorus Line. So like I grew up on a Chorus Line, which was a little bit before Cats and 42nd Street, which was slightly before Cats. So I was a tap dancer. So I gravitated more toward 42nd Street and my one and only and all of the tap dance shows like No No Nanette. Those were things that, you know, cause I grew up watching Gene Kelly movies. And so I wanted to be a tap dancer. So a Chorus Line and 42nd Street were the shows that I was like, oh, I can do these. And Cats, because it was so balletic, I wasn't a ballet dancer. I, it just never dawned on me. So I saw it and was like, this is fun. I won't do it, but it's fun.

[10:39] Gavan Pamer: And the tap number is Jenny, usually.

[10:43] Gavan Pamer: Jenny Anydots. Yeah. That's the Beatles. It's the cockroaches or the Beatles.

[10:47] Mike Abrams: Yep. So let's go into, you get, you know, so beyond your wildest dreams, you end up in the cast as Mungo Jerry. And so tell me about what you were told about Mungo and, and like how to play them and what, like, what was the direction you're given for, for your cat?

[11:07] Gavan Pamer: Well, it's interesting because I got the tour when I was in college, I auditioned for the show when it came through Heinz Hall. And so I got a call back from then and then auditioned for Skimbleshanks twice in New York City. I auditioned for Skimbleshanks twice in New York City on the Winter Garden stage. And at my second audition, they offered me the German company as Mungo Jerry because they told me that I was too young for Skimbleshanks. So then I was doing a production at the Pittsburgh Playhouse of James at Sea and Cats called up and said, Hey, we want you to come in for Mungo Jerry. There's an opening on the tour and we need to replace it right away. And I said, well, I can't afford to come.

They're like, we're going to fly you there. So I was like, oh, I'll come. So I went and auditioned, got the show. And literally five days later, I was in Sacramento, California meeting the cast. And the first thing they do when you join the cast is tell you the story of Cats. And it's this very long, like hour long sort of story where they give you the background of all the cats. And of course, it's such a whirlwind because my luggage was like still sitting backstage at this theater in Sacramento. And I'm sitting in the stage manager's office listening to the story of Cats. And it's a joke amongst people who have ever done Cats that, oh, did you hear the story of Cats? And it starts off with Demeter was raped.

But that's the joke that goes around. But they literally take like an hour and a half delving into the backstory of all these cats. The unfortunate thing about that is for someone like me, I knew nothing about the show. I saw it once in 1987. I didn't even see it when it came through Heinz Hall when I auditioned for it in 1990 or whenever it was. So I still was unfamiliar with it. And they're telling you these stories about Demeter and Bob Mellorita and Cassandra and Deuteronomy. And you're listening to all these names. And you're like, OK, OK, OK. And I think there was like maybe paperwork that had this story in it or something. I can't remember. It's been so long ago. It's almost 30 years since I joined the company.

And then it's basically you and the dance captain in a studio. So you would be in whatever city you were in. And they would rent a studio, a dance studio, a local dance studio. And they would take you there with mirrors and start teaching you the show. And it basically is three weeks that they have to teach you your entire part. And at the time, I had joined the company at the same time that Steven Bertles, who was a swing on the show, he covered five or six, possibly even seven roles in the show. And we learned the basic show together. So we were in a room together learning the show together.

[14:06] Gavan Pamer: That's amazing. I'm still waiting. I've heard the story of Cats and even the joke about Demeter, because that's, I think, a crazy part of the story. That's just like, yeah, it's a known piece of it. I've yet to find anybody who can give me that story, who can provide that story for me. I'm looking for someone to give me that rundown because I've been trying to figure it out myself. It's so interesting because

[14:13] Gavan Pamer: Cats is such an individual show that, you know, we talk about the tracks in Broadway musicals, and it's because of shows like Cats and shows that have these epic, you know, ensembles in them, that, you know, there are times when you do the same type of choreography, you're doing the same thing, but everybody has their own journey through the show. So as Mungojerrie, I also covered, over the course of time, I covered Skimbleshanks, and then I also covered Gus, the theater cat. I understudied both of those. And like I think on other times, you were talking about the different perspectives of the different cats. But my perspective of Cats was taught to me from Mungojerrie's perspective. So I could probably tell you what the story of Cats is based on my perception as Mungo.

But the story of Cats itself, because they tell it the first day you're there, when you're just excited getting off a plane to like be on a big contract and doing the show, I don't remember half of it. But it also, the story itself changes and evolves based on number one, who's in the show, what character or what person is playing it, but also who the supervisor at the time might be. Because this was a show that ran, this was a tour that ran for 12 years. And we didn't always have the same music supervisor. We had Richard Stafford, who was one of the choreographers on the show, was with us a good majority of the time. But there was six months that Cynthia on Rubia, who is the original white cat, came out as the dance supervisor when Richard took a sabbatical.

You know, Eddie Robinson, I think, was our music supervisor for a very long time. And David Taylor, who was the director of the show, was with us for a very long time. But the production stage manager from New York would come out to sort of maintain the show. So everybody had their version of the show that they would tell you and teach you. And, you know, and it was fluid and changed constantly. I love it because I feel like I'm, my goal is to influence the next person who has to go do that.

[16:10] Mike Abrams: Exactly. Yeah. So tell me, tell me your version from Mungojerrie's lens of the story of Cats.

[16:18] Gavan Pamer: OK, well, you know, you probably heard this numerous times. This basically is a junkyard in this tribe of cats that comes together once a year to basically have Deuteronomy choose who is that special cat that goes to be reborn and get to come back as a new in a new life. And for that, the way I look at it is, you know, I mean, basically, the show was an experiment. It was an experiment for Andrew Lloyd Webber, who found Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats in an airport and thought, I wonder if I could put me, you know, put poems to music. And he did that. And then it turned into a musical somehow. So once it turned into a musical composition, then they had to sort of put somewhat of a plot in it, so the actors could at least make sense of it, but from a perspective of sitting in the audience, there is no plot, and I'm going to say that there is no plot to Cats other than, you know, what is sort of inflicted and forced upon it.

So from Mungojerrie's point of view, Mungostrap, who is this leader of this tribe, he's the sort of, he's not, he would be, I guess, you know, Deuteronomy is the father of this tribe, basically. And Mungostrap is sort of the protector of the tribe, and sort of the narrator of what is the evening. And these little vignettes that come out are everybody's choice, putting forth who they think should go to the Heaviside lair. And, you know, Mungostrap's first choice is Jenny Anydots. That's the first one he chooses. And like Bustopher Jones is, you know, the Gumby Cats, that's her choice to go to the Heaviside lair. And of course, throughout this entire time where people are trying to put forth the person who they think, you know, Skimbleshanks is actually is, you know, Deuteronomy's choice.

He's the one who actually starts Skimbleshanks. And throughout this, Grizabella happens upon this and interrupts basically the event and what's happening. And the same thing with Macavity. Macavity and Grizabella are sort of the outsiders of this tribe, who used to be a part of the tribe, but they're the outsiders of the tribe that sort of interrupt the festivities for the evening.

[18:39] Mike Abrams: So that's a super interesting way to say this. So if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is, is that old Deuteronomy was choosing Skimbleshanks, but got interrupted by Grizabella and changes his choice.

[18:54] Gavan Pamer: Well, if you look at this is, of course, from Mungojerrie's perspective, if you look at the way that everybody like Jenny, Jellylorum comes forward and presents Gus, and she sings about Gus in the original production, Mistoffelees sang the song Mungojerrie Rumple Teaser. So in a sense, he was kind of, you know, not saying that they should be, but if you if you look at the course of the evening, each one of these cats is presenting somebody else. Again, Mungojerrie Rumple Teaser are basically outsiders that are sort of crashing the party. And even though they're there the entire time, they, you know, they make everybody think that it's Macavity once again. And of course, because they're mischievous, they interrupt the proceedings.

But each one of these vignettes is somebody putting someone forward to say, hey, this is, you know, whereas possibly Rum Tum Tugger is another one who comes in. And he basically is saying, I should go to the Heaviside Layer, because he interrupts the process, you know, for himself. And so each way that happens. Whereas there are so many things that are sort of brought into the proceedings. And then of course, it's all disrupted at the end anyway, as far as I'm concerned. I've always viewed Old Deuteronomy as decision maker, judge and jury, you know, and father is and he's supposed to be judge and jury. And that's why he's, you know, when he comes on stage, and, you know, everybody, of course, is like just welcoming him on stage, because he is sort of a judge and jury, and everybody looks to him for guidance.

And, you know, because even at the beginning of the show, Monkestrap says, when Old Deuteronomy, just before dawn, through a silence, you feel like announces the cat who can now be reborn. Like, so he, I think, comes into this, Deuteronomy is looking at all of this, because he happens upon the scene halfway through Act One. So he's not even there when Gumby Cat's being presented. And, you know, when Rum Tum Tugger comes in and interrupts, you know, so it's, and Buster for Jones, he's not even there yet. So that kind of strengthens the case for Skimbleshanks of this is his choice. He's presenting him, he's kind of leading into it.

[21:06] Mike Abrams: That's interesting. I've never really thought about it from the, each person is bringing it, besides for Jelly Lorm. Like, that's the one where it seems really obvious that she's almost, because he's incapable, I'm going to present for him on his behalf. But I've not thought about all the other ones.

[21:19] Gavan Pamer: Something with Monkestrap. He's like, I have a Gumby Cat in mind, you know.

[21:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[21:23] Gavan Pamer: But originally, in the original Broadway company, Mistoffelees sang that first part of it. I think it was Timothy Scott who, because Timothy Scott was a really big singer, but over the course of time, they hired Mistoffelees who were really great dancers, but not great singers. So Monkestrap's role kind of evolved and changed a little more because, you know, they didn't have a Mistoffelees that was a singer.

[21:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit more about Mungo.

[21:50] Gavan Pamer: Okay.

[21:54] Mike Abrams: They're a tough one to try to figure out. It seems like their cat's family tree is, they have collars, right?

[22:01] Gavan Pamer: They are domesticated cats.

[22:04] Mike Abrams: They're domesticated, and that's why they can have the ability to be a little, you know, have the mischief in their mind. It seems like they're henchmen for Macavity.

[22:14] Gavan Pamer: Actually, they're not henchmen for Macavity. No, they're mischievous cats. They would like people to believe that they're henchmen for Macavity, but I think Macavity is more sinister than Mungojerrie. You know, when you listen to Mungojerrie's song, it's a lot more fun, and they like to steal things and push things around and move things. They're the cat that's sitting on the counter that's knocking stuff off, and you put it back up on the counter, and they're knocking it off. They're not going to abduct someone and actually, you know, whatever the case. So I don't really feel that they're henchmen of Macavity's. Although they would like people to believe that they are.

[23:05] Mike Abrams: So are they the equivalent of like the rich kids who don't need to steal but are stealing and know that they don't really have any consequences most likely coming to them?

[23:09] Gavan Pamer: Correct. That's how I view it, because why would they be domesticated? Why would they have collars on and, you know, and they're this sort of tumble about, you know.

[23:14] Mike Abrams: How much did you think about who their owners were related to? Did you think about the, like, cat's family tree when you were playing the show?

[23:21] Gavan Pamer: It's interesting because you can literally spiral into, you know, a rabbit hole.

[23:30] Mike Abrams: I have.

[23:30] Gavan Pamer: I'm sure you have. You can spiral into that rabbit hole, but there are many of the cats, even though they're part of this junkyard tribe, there are many cats that have collars. Bombay Arena wears a collar. Cassandra has a collar, at least the costume that in our company, she had a beautiful collar. So Cassandra, who's an Abyssinian, is a domesticated cat because she's that prissy cat. Victoria is a domesticated cat. Sillabob is a domesticated cat. Rum Tum Tugger is a domesticated cat. But, you know, most of them have collars. You know, it's a few like Alonzo that doesn't. Tumble Brutus has a collar. Pounceville doesn't have a collar. Like, so most of them are all domesticated cats, which is really, really interesting.

[24:21] Mike Abrams: So and they sort of become this tribe because they're indoor outdoor cats, you know? So they all escape and come to this junkyard every year. So it's kind of this party to escape the worlds they actually live in.

[24:35] Gavan Pamer: Yeah, that's, uh, okay. That's interesting. One other thing about the dance, because this is something I, you know, I have not been able to go, it's hard to find archive of your production. And one thing that I remember from the 1998 movie, which I don't think they did in 2016, was is that Mungojerrie Ripple Teaser did this like joint cartwheel.

[24:46] Gavan Pamer: Oh, yeah.

[24:57] Mike Abrams: Did you do the joint cartwheel?

[24:59] Gavan Pamer: Yes, we did. Yeah. And actually, it was Mickey Lubeck, who was the assistant dance captain. Jen Cody was my partner at the time. She was my Ripple Teaser at the time on the road. And she was on vacation. And we normally did five connecting cartwheels across the stage. And of course, I did the number with, I had six different onstage Ripple Teasers that I had done the show with over the course of the three and a half years. But I had done the number total with 18 different women. And they were all different sizes, like, you know, different, different leg heights. And of course, those cartwheels really work well if you have the same length legs. And it was when Jen was on vacation. And Mickey said, Do you want to do seven?

And I was like, What is there enough room on stage to do seven cartwheels across the stage? And she's like, Yeah, you just got to do them faster. And, you know, Mickey was like, Let's do it. So we did it. And so I started doing seven. And then Jen came back, and they occasionally swing people in and out of the show to watch the show or do this and that. And when Jen came back, they had swung her out. And she had been back for a couple of weeks, a month or whatever. And they wanted to swing people out to see. And Mickey was on again. And she was like, Should we do seven again? And I was like, Sure, let's do it. We did seven. And at intermission, my dressing room door slammed open. And it was Jen Cody.

And she was like, We're doing seven. And I was like, Okay, seven. So then the norm became doing seven of those cartwheels across the stage. And, you know, and, and then I think with Dana Salomon, I think I did him with Maria Joralibate. We did seven with Dana Salamondo. I did seven. Yeah, but it was fun. And it's, they're actually fun. And we did a lot of tumbling. And in the show, and my partner, I'm five, seven, and all of my partners were like, 4'10", 4'11". And they were so much shorter than me. And I literally, they were maybe 100 pounds, 98 pounds. And I look at what we did in a number, you know, at my age now in life and think I don't even think I can do a cartwheel anymore, let alone have somebody climbing all over me, tumbling upside down, and then connecting each other to each other and going across the stage. But it was it was fun. And when you're 20, when you're 24, it's exciting. When you're my age, it's not so exciting.

[27:12] Mike Abrams: Well, as a non-dancer, that's like, that's one thing when I saw the 1990 movie, I'm like, my god, like, that sounds so, so difficult. And something I couldn't even comprehend as a non-dancer. And then not a tumble or two, even, you know, it seems like.

[27:27] Gavan Pamer: Yeah, well, what I have to say about the company that I went into, I went into the company in 1992. And the people that I started working with had been together for an entire year. It was one of the slickest, most talented group of people I had ever seen in my lifetime. And what was so interesting about it is, when one person left, somebody else would come in, that was equally as talented in a different way. And I was that was the least of the tumbling that happened in the show. Jim Ruttman, who was the first Macavity that I remember on the show was six foot four, and tumbled like he was like, you know, Simone Biles, like his tiniest Biles. Stephen Bertles, who I learned the show with, was this phenomenal tumbler.

Every single person, Mark Holland, Tim Hunter, Joey Favalora, they were tumblers extraordinaire, that literally were upside down more than they were on their feet in the show. And I did the least amount of tumbling in the show. And people still remember Mungojerrie.

[28:26] Mike Abrams: Welcome back to The Wrong Cat Died. Today, we have a special guest, Gavan Pamer, who played Mungojerrie in the fourth US National Tour of CATS. Gavan, thank you for joining us!

[28:56] Gavan Pamer: Thanks for having me, Mike! It's great to be here.

[29:26] Mike Abrams: So, let's dive right in. The tour was incredibly successful, right? I heard you guys sold a million dollars in just one week!

[29:56] Gavan Pamer: Yeah, it was wild! The show was so popular, and we were just riding that wave of excitement. It was a really special time for all of us involved.

[30:16] Mike Abrams: That's amazing! And I understand you went on an "arena tour." What was that like?

[30:36] Gavan Pamer: The arena tour was a whole different experience. Performing in such large venues brought a unique energy. The audiences were massive, and it felt like we were part of something really big.

[30:56] Mike Abrams: I can only imagine! And I have to ask, what was it like doing those infamous cartwheels in your dance?

[31:16] Gavan Pamer: Oh man, the cartwheels! They were definitely a challenge, but also a lot of fun. It took a lot of practice to get them just right, especially in the costume. But once you nailed it, it felt incredible.

[31:36] Mike Abrams: I bet! Now, you have a theory about Old Deuteronomy and Skimbleshanks. Can you share that with us?

[31:56] Gavan Pamer: Sure! I always thought that Old Deuteronomy was actually picking Skimbleshanks before Grizabella comes back. It adds an interesting layer to the story, don’t you think?

[32:16] Mike Abrams: Absolutely! That’s a fascinating perspective. It really makes you think about the dynamics between the characters.

[32:36] Gavan Pamer: Exactly! There’s so much depth to the relationships in the show, and I love exploring those theories.

[32:56] Mike Abrams: It’s one of the things that keeps fans coming back to CATS. The layers of meaning are endless.

[33:16] Gavan Pamer: For sure! And the music and choreography just enhance that experience. It’s a timeless piece that resonates with so many people.

[33:36] Mike Abrams: Definitely! So, what was your favorite moment during the tour?

[33:56] Gavan Pamer: My favorite moment has to be the audience reactions. Seeing their faces light up during the show was always rewarding. It reminded us why we were there.

[34:16] Mike Abrams: That’s wonderful! It’s all about the connection with the audience.

[34:36] Gavan Pamer: Absolutely! And every performance felt like a new experience, even if we were doing the same show night after night.

[34:56] Mike Abrams: That’s the magic of live theater! Thank you so much for sharing your insights, Gavan.

[35:16] Gavan Pamer: Thank you for having me, Mike! It’s been a pleasure.

[35:36] Mike Abrams: And to our listeners, make sure to check out Gavan on Instagram at @gpamer. We’ll see you next time on The Wrong Cat Died!

[42:39] Gavan Pamer: The show was so popular that we sold a million dollars in one week. It was just incredible.

[43:03] Gavan Pamer: We went on what they called an "arena tour," which was a completely different experience from the traditional theater setting.

[43:31] Gavan Pamer: Doing the infamous cartwheels in my dance was a challenge, but it was also a lot of fun.

[43:59] Gavan Pamer: I think it really showcased the energy and athleticism that the role of Mungojerrie requires.

[44:27] Gavan Pamer: There was a lot of camaraderie among the cast, and we all pushed each other to be better every night.

[44:55] Gavan Pamer: I remember one night, we had a particularly energetic audience, and it just fueled our performance.

[45:23] Gavan Pamer: The connection with the audience is something that makes live theater so special.

[45:51] Gavan Pamer: I also have this theory that Old Deuteronomy was actually picking Skimbleshanks before Grizabella comes back.

[46:19] Gavan Pamer: It adds another layer to the story and makes you think about the choices being made.

[46:47] Gavan Pamer: The dynamics between the characters are so rich, and there's so much to explore.

[47:15] Gavan Pamer: I think that’s part of what keeps audiences coming back to CATS.

[47:43] Gavan Pamer: Each character has their own story, and it’s fascinating to see how they all intertwine.

[48:11] Gavan Pamer: I loved being part of that world, even if it was just for a short time.

[48:39] Gavan Pamer: The experience of performing in CATS is something I’ll always cherish.

[49:07] Gavan Pamer: It’s a unique show that resonates with so many people for different reasons.

[49:35] Gavan Pamer: I think that’s what makes it a classic.

[50:03] Gavan Pamer: The music, the choreography, the costumes—everything comes together to create something magical.

[50:31] Gavan Pamer: I remember the first time I saw the show, I was completely captivated.

[50:59] Gavan Pamer: It’s amazing to think that I got to be a part of that legacy.

[51:27] Gavan Pamer: I hope to bring that same joy to audiences whenever I perform.

[51:55] Gavan Pamer: It’s all about the connection and the shared experience of live theater.

[52:22] Gavan Pamer: I think that’s what keeps the spirit of CATS alive, even after all these years.

[52:48] Gavan Pamer: There’s something timeless about the story and the characters.

[53:16] Gavan Pamer: I feel lucky to have had the chance to portray Mungojerrie.

[53:44] Gavan Pamer: It’s a role that allows for a lot of creativity and expression.

[54:14] Gavan Pamer: I think audiences appreciate that energy and enthusiasm.

[54:40] Gavan Pamer: It’s all about bringing the characters to life in a way that resonates with people.

[55:10] Gavan Pamer: I hope that my performance left a lasting impression on those who saw it.

[55:40] Gavan Pamer: It’s a unique experience that I’ll always hold dear.

[56:10] Gavan Pamer: I’m grateful for the opportunity to have been part of such an iconic show.

[56:40] Gavan Pamer: It’s a journey I’ll never forget.